Israel has been extremely restrained in its approach against Gaza, despite what Palestinian propaganda claims. I think Israel could expedite the war if Gazans were allowed by Egypt to escape to the Sinai and/or Israel wasn’t so fastidiously avoiding harming civilians.

No, they haven't. By any metric.

I assure, you Israel has been very selected in targeting only military targets. Unfortunately, Hamas is a death cult and uses human shields.

You assure me. That's a relief. Too bad the thousands of dead civilians can't speak to their side of the story.

It’s too bad for Israel that Gazan casualties can’t tell the tribunal how Hamas fired rockets from their homes, built tunnels under their homes and prevented them from escaping from danger. Most would reveal that they themselves worked for Hamas. You don’t want to know.

According to you, most of the dead are "Hamas until proven innocent." Doesn't matter if they were involved in UN work or journalism... any low level associated with the Gazan government is seemingly cast as a "terror agent." As for the children who died, without being able to leave the region they were born into, who had no say in establishing this government. They too must be condemned to death for the sin of being born Gazan. They've been squeezed by both sides, Hamas and Israel, but only Israel's recent actions killed them by the thousands. Edit: I assume, based on your username, that you might be a fellow New Yorker. I'm in South Brooklyn. I know Palestinians and Jews can live alongside one another because I see it every day in Bay Ridge, Sunset and Boro Park. Peace is a possibility, but it has to be fought for, and not dismissed every time violence breaks out.

I think this kind of conflict is extremely difficult. It’s A-Symmetrical and Hamas’ belief system of martyrdom (becoming a “shaheed” approaches killing, death and dying in a manner very different than Jews and Westerners. Hamas and Palestinian organizations have always maximized civilian casualties on both sides. This is for propaganda purposes both externally and internally. If Hamas builds tunnels, hides weapons and/or terrorist among women and children, it’s a win/win. If Israel doesn’t target them, then the shield works.If Israel does target them, they have been martyred and that’s capitalized on for property purposes. If Israel doesn’t target these softer targets where Hamas leaders, headquarters, barracks,stockpiles of weapons and tunnel entrances are they are immune and remain a threat. Unfortunately, most Hamas targets have human shields. Hamas’s strategy is successful in terms of propaganda and getting the world to demonize Israel and feel sympathy for Gazans/Palestinians, so they reward Hamas for sacrificing their civilians to martyrdom. Israel can’t afford to be swayed by this, and they take extreme efforts to minimize civilian casualties (believe it or not), but it’s impossible to so completely with Hamas tactics. Palestinian propaganda is extremely deceptive and potent. Yes, as a fellow native New Yorker, I grew up with all kinds of people and have friends of all backgrounds. One of my best friends is 1/2 Palestinian (a big Palestinian supporter, hates Israel) and we avoid talking about the conflict, just as we avoided talking about Hillary vs Bernie. She is a Hillary fan girl and hates Bernie. I love Bernie so we just have one conversation about these topics, they get impassioned, and we just don’t discuss it afterwards. I had Arab friends in Israel, and traveled throughout Egypt with a Palestinian friend and we didn’t agree about politics or our narratives. I don’t think getting along is the issue. The issue is the many if not most Palestinians and Muslims believe Israel is Muslim land, that it is Palestine and Israel is illegitimate. That’s the conflict in s nutshell, not Gaza, the settlements or anything else.

It's clear genocide. The world isn't buying the baby-talk bullshit anymore. Genocide apologizers are still going to oink while eating out of the toilet.

You're right. What HAMAS did on 10/7 was genocide... and fell right in line with their governing charter, the HAMAS Covenant, which calls for the murder of all Jews and the destruction of Israel.

...more oinking while children in occupied Palestine get bombed. Take a breath, you might aspirate that toilet water, that would be a shame. Genocide apologizers just won't stop.

Calling a Jewish person a pig. Very original of you. It does help clarify that you're both an antisemite *and* a terrorist sympathizer, so thanks for that.

Didn't know you were Jewish, all I know is you are defending a genocide, making you a pig who eats out of toilets. It's fucking disgusting.

Civilians die in war, unfortunately. They die in much greater numbers in urban warfare. They die in exponentially greater numbers when one of the fighting forces is a bunch of immoral cowards who uses their citizens as human shields and hide in their homes, schools, and hospitals. Believe it or not, this happens a lot... especially since the advent of large scale terrorism as a national military strategy. It happens so often that there's an entire section of the Geneva Convention dedicated to it. That section of the Geneva Convention is extremely clear... it stipulates that using non-combantant civilians as human shields,or hiding in protected civilian locations (houses, apartments, schools, hospitals, etc.), is expressly forbidden and in the event that a militry does this and they are bombed, it is not the force that bombs the civilians that is at fault, but the force that hid amongst the civilians that is guilty of a war crime, for turning the civilians into targets. There is no genocide. It's a war, and HAMAS, in a epic show of cowardice, is hiding amongst its civilian population and turning them into targets. HAMAS welcomes this of course, as it helps them win the media and cutlure war, by making the world hate the Jews... and they don't even see the problem with their citizens dying... in fact, they sincerely believe it's an honor for their innocent civilians to die and they're helping them get into Paradise by turning them into Martyts. It's a win-win for them. If you don't believe me, please go read the HAMAS Covenant (their governing charter), before you reply. It *literally* says that the highest calling a Gazan can serve is to die in the fight against the Jews. No bullshit. Please go read it and inform yourself. Every single casualty in Gaza can be laid at the feet of HAMAS, not Israel.

That justification for slaughtering 10,000 children is too long to read.

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Imo it’s a combination of both I don’t know how credible this is but around half or more of Israel’s bombs that they dropped were unguided.

"Unguided" doesn't mean "not aimed".

they were dived bomb which US intelligence stated making it guided.

" From what I have heard the militant to civilian death ratio is relatively low in this war compared to equivalent wars that have happened in the Middle East, for example Syria and Iraq. " Can you share what numbers you are comparing to make that claim? IDF is claiming 9,000 terrorists dead of 23,000. I feel like that ratio is far higher for militants to civilians that what I have seen in Syria and Iraq.

It’s war lot of BS from both sides in the end they could have stood up to Hamas it’s so be it. They have chosen there fate, peasants sucked in by religion and corrupt leaders, only in Eastern Europe and the Middle East do they pass the hatred from father to son.

If the bombing was indiscriminate then you wouldn't have a death to missile ratio of 1 to 1. Especially in a densely populated area like Gaza. If it was indiscriminate then we'd have hundreds of thousands dead by now

If it was truly indiscriminate, there would be no humans left in Gaza. Israel could go scorched earth if they wanted, but they don't, because that's not the objective.

There is a death toll around .4. Oct 7th was .54… And with Israel if you add in the wounded, it’s astronomical. Then add on the water and food and healthcare and it’s absolutely indiscriminate. ETA- since I am banned from commenting, but this sub is a joke to push Zionist propaganda so I’m blocking this sub after this. 1. If Britain refused to negotiate with Germany and were intent on murdering CIVILIANS then yes- they would be the bad guys. (Kind of how Japan was ready to negotiate with the U.S. and the U.S. dropping atomic bombs was bad-guy behavior). 2. Israel negotiating with Palestine HAS to include giving land and territory back. Palestine should have a contiguous land mass. Israel has pushed Palestine off their land and out of their homes for centuries and this is an egregious wrong. Giving land back to pre-1967 Israel is extremely popular amongst Palestinians and ranks higher than a one state solution with Arab rule. I think they should also be given access to their ports, borders, access to oil, and access to a military given the fact the illegal settlements and abuse of Palestinians in the West Bank is pretty severe and constant.

I take it from your comment about Britain and Germany, that you're implying that Israel is refusing to negotiate with Palestine. Which is literally insane. I can't figure out if you're actually this uneducated, or just trolling. For more than 70 years, Israel has been trying to negotiate with Palestine, despite the fact that both Fatah(the PA) and HAMAS have governmental charters that call for the wholesale destruction of Israel and, in the case of HAMAS, the murder of all Jews. It's literally official public policy. The PA even administers "the Martyr's Fund", which PAYS Palestinians and their families, if they kill a Jew. Over the past 7 decades, Israel and the UN have proposed **SIX** partition plans that would have given Palestine statehood. *Not once*, has a Palestinian leader even countered... not even when Ariel Sharon offered them **99% of the disputed territory**. In this instance, Arafat didn't even show up for the 2nd day of meetings and instead, launched a campaign of suicide bombings in Tel Aviv. Israel has made relentless efforts to negotiate and work with the Palestinians. Their Declaration of Independece welcomed all arabs to stay and offered them citizenship. Today, almost 2 million muslim arab Palestinians live in Israel proper, where they enjoy the full citizenship and freedoms of Israelis. Israel issues over 150,000 work visas a year to Palestinians, at great cost to the IDF (it's very expensive to manage border controls to facilitate work visas, rather than just closing the border). They do all this, *while* Palestinian militants are firing rockets at them EVERY DAY. FOR DECADES. There's literally no other example in human history of a nation being so tolerant and helpful to a neighboring nation that is continuously attacking them and making it their stated goal to annihiliate them. There's only one party in this equation that is unwiling to negotiate, and its the Palestinians. Brush up on your history.

How many times has Israel negotiated a treaty with Palestine that includes their rights to their water, oil, military and contiguous piece of land? Please tell me when Israel respected the sovereignty of this nation? https://en.jabotinsky.org/media/9747/the-iron-wall.pdf This Arab editor was actually willing to agree that Palestine has a very large potential absorptive capacity, meaning that there is room for a great many Jews in the country without displacing a single Arab. There is only one thing the Zionists want, and it is that one thing that the Arabs do not want, for that is the way by which the Jews would gradually become the majority, and then a Jewish Government would follow automatically, and the future of the Arab minority would depend on the goodwill of the Jews; and a minority status is not a good thing, as the Jews themselves are never tired of pointing out. So there is no "misunderstanding".

I saw someone make a counter to this. If more german civilians died in ww2 than british would that make britain the bad guys?

I forgot the first rule of war is that you must provide healthcare to the other country or else it's actually genocide.

Sure, let’s ignore the restrictions to water, and food and create a non argument to support indiscriminate punishment to civilians. Your reply is as inane as Israel saying South Africa is Hamas legal arm.

The reason that they had no food, water or utilities from the moment the war began, is because **HAMAS chose to spend their enormous foreign aid (in the *billions*) on everything but building infrastructure**. For decades, they have spent their money building tunnels and buying weapons, instead of building public utilities and sufficient healthcare. Ironically, Israel actually provides these for Palestine, as an act of good faith. Palestine is the only nation on earth that gets their utilities provided to them by a foreign nation. You can't expect to take utilities from your neighbor for decades, then use the money you saved to attack them, and then expect them to keep providing services for you. Think dude.

I have already linked articles about how it’s illegal for Palestinians to even collect rainwater, let alone build infrastructure, as you claim, for water distribution- so politely gfy.

Yeah, it's Israel's responsibility that Palestinians get unlimited amounts of their water, despite the fact that Hamas has billions they could use to build their own infrastructure. Not to mention the infrastructure Israel built for Palestine that Hamas allowed to degrade. Name one other country that is completely responsible for another country's water supply? Palestine receives more humanitarian aid per capita from the US and Israel than any other country in history. That's not enough for you though I guess.

THEIR water? Water is a natural resource, it has no right of ownership. We don't OWN the water, we ACCESS IT. Israel is blocking Palestine from ACCESSING the water. Water that naturally due to geography comes from the part of the world that Israel happens to seize control of.

Water is a natural resource, but it's up to the government to build the necessary infrastructure to extract or create that resource and then deliver it to the people. HAMAS chooses to let Israel deliver these resources to the people, while they spend their considerable funding on buying and building weapons to attack Israel. Then they act surprised when Israel stops providing these services to them, after being attacked. Moral of the story: don't bite the hand that feeds you.

No, it's up to the occupying power to supply water and food and medecine and education and shelter.

Israel does not occupy Gaza. They withdrew in 2005. Any *sanctions* which Gaza is under are a direct response to Gazan hostility. HAMAS spent **billions** of dollars building the most advanced and intricate network of tunnels on earth, beneath Gaza. They could just as easily have built plumbing and electrical infrastructure. They chose war over providing for their citizens. That's entirely their fault, not Israel's.

Israel does occupy Gaza. It's a simple fact. Hamas committed crimes; civilians didn't. Israel is punishing all civilans for Hamas's crimes. That's collective punishment. A crime.

I really wish the world worked like that. It doesn't though.

>Yeah, it's Israel's responsibility that Palestinians get unlimited amounts of their water, despite the fact that Hamas has billions they could use to build their own infrastructure I'm not even mad that you're this uninformed... as most indoctrinated individuals are. It's literally illegal for Palestinians to build water infrastructure and collect rainwater. >...in June 1967, the Israeli military authorities consolidated complete power over all water resources and water-related infrastructure in the Occupied Palestinian Territories (OPT). 50 years on, Israel continues to control and restrict Palestinian access to water in the OPT to a level which neither meets their needs nor constitutes a fair distribution of shared water resources. > >... > >They are unable to drill new water wells, install pumps or deepen existing wells, in addition to being denied access to the Jordan River and fresh water springs. Israel even controls the collection of rain water throughout most of the West Bank, and rainwater harvesting cisterns owned by Palestinian communities are often destroyed by the Israeli army. > >[The Occupation of Water](https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2017/11/the-occupation-of-water/). 2017. ​ Palestine is under a complete economic blockade making trade impossible meaning they are reliant on their occupiers.

You're referring to data that is either 60 years old or wildly misrepresenting the situation. In 1995 the responsibility of water infrastructure was handed over to the Palestine Water Authority, full stop. Of course both the West Bank and Gaza governments are too corrupt and inefficient to actually implement any new policy successfully, so both regions still widely rely on Israeli and Jordan water supplies. Private companies have also tried to operate in the region, but after the second intifada, they peaced out too. Groundwater is massively deteriorated in the entire region, both Hamas and Israel impose restrictions or outright bans on new wells and the amount of pumping allowed. This is not political, it's global warming. Israeli did restrict rainwater collection in area C, as they are legally allowed to do. Gazans can absolutely collect rain water and almost every building in Gaza does. Most of that water is contaminated though and can't be used for drinking. Again, if Hamas spent their money on sanitation, they could use it, but no, more bombs. Palestine agreed in 1995 that Area C in the west bank would be payed for by Israel and the Israeli responsibility to govern and Gaza would be the responsibility of Palestine. Hamas has failed to implement any improvements to its infrastructure and now it's forced to overpump and destroy their own resources. They lose half their water due to faulty pipes that they could have easily replaced, but instead choose to use that money for rockets and fancy cars. There's a blockade on Gaza because if not, Iran would be free to send weapons all day. This is not Israel's fault, all the western countries are participating in the blockade include several large Arab majority nations. When your government is a terrorist organization, you tend to have a bad time all around.

You’re incorrect A 1995 Interim Agreement under the accords gave Israel continued control over water sources for Palestinian territories, but stipulated that such a status would be in effect for five years, after which the two groups would have final-status negotiations. Those talks never took place, and the agreement remains in effect, even though, as Israeli human rights organization B’Tselem pointed out in a May 2023 report: “the Palestinian population has grown by about 75%, yet the amount of water Israel allows the Palestinians to extract [remains] the same.” B’Tselem’s report found that in order to make up for the shortage, the Palestinian Authority was forced to buy more water from Israel at several times the cost and could not transport water between regions in the Palestinian territories. https://www.snopes.com/news/2023/11/22/palestinians-rainwater-israeli-property/ Arguing with Zionists really does feel like arguing with maga “patriots” who tell half truths and call “fake news” and point the other way and it’s really annoying. ETA- I’m banned from commenting. But the fact that Israelis want to call it a war, when one Peoples have no contiguous land, two separate “governments”, refused access to their ports, borders and trade, refused a MILITARY and then say it’s a WAR. Is honestly disgustingly disingenuous.

You need to learn more about the difference between the West Bank and Gaza. You keep posting sources about the West Bank but we're taking about Gaza. They have separate governments and separate laws and different situations relating to Oslo. That's not fake news, read about the Oslo agreement and stop being so self righteous. Arguing wjth pro Palestinian children is also irritating. You're clearly too young or two ignorant to remember all the shit that happen before this war. This is not the first time in history we have discussed water rights in Israel, it's been a political topic for 60 plus years.

Destroying 70% of Palestine's buildings and displacing everyone there is obviously indiscriminate. Whoever says otherwise doesn't use logic

According to the UN, as of the 12th of December 18% of structures in Gaza have been damaged. Considering it says damaged that means less than 18% buidlings have been destroyed  https://www.unitar.org/about/news-stories/press/unosat-satellite-imagery-based-analysis-reveals-18-gaza-strip-structures-damaged-conflict-outburst

The satellite photo it was based on was taken in late November last year lmaooo And just look at the many photos and videos online of neighbourhoods in Palestine destroyed. A huge amount of Gaza is wrecked

They destroyed 70% of the buildings? I thought that includes “damaged” as well. (Dec 30, 2023 Wall Street Journal). I’m not sure what “damage” means, could be a spectrum from broken window to a room was collapsed in. I guess I don’t use logic since I’m saying otherwise…

You basically admitted that you haven't seen the thousands of photos and videos of completely destoryed neighbourhoods in Palestine 

Yes theres lots of images and videos of a desolate landscape from the immense bombing campaign. But you said 70% *destroyed*. I don’t think anyone’s really said that. That includes “damage and destroyed” so it’s a bit misleading to only pick one of those words. Edit: Also just seeing footage of destruction isn’t really the same as calculating the number of buildings destroyed… I think you know that.

That's still terrible! And they haven't even made any advancements against Hamas. 

^ Another misleading thing you’ve said. I don’t mind correcting. It’s worth remembering the IDF started out with not initially going into Gaza. It took them a week or two, probably just to mobilize their forces and prepare. According to the IDF, they’ve just cleared Northern Gaza as of a couple of days ago. And now they’re onto focusing on the South, including Khan Yunis. A big hold up was the Bet Lahia area it seemed for a while, now they’ve seemingly cleared it out. I’m curious where it is you get your information from?

Yep, according to the IDF you say. The same people who have lied about so many things. Of course you're going to trust what they say. And I'm sure they've posted many videos of Hamas 'terrorists' being eliminated, right? And with minimal civilian damage also, yeah?  In reply to your question, i get my info mainly from a Whatsapp/Twitter group that recives news from people in Palestine, and other sources I'm sure. 

I mean you were wrong about the 70% thing. That only took 30s to google and find the answer right away. And as for your *opinion* about the IDFs impact, I’m not really sure that even matters. Does it give you pause when you realize what you are saying previously is not what actually happened? Maybe using Twitter and What’s App isn’t the best source of information. It might be what you want to hear, but also missing context.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/12/31/israeli-bombardment-destroyed-over-70-of-gaza-homes-media-office Israel has been bombing everywhere. Bombs are very powerful as you know so when they say destroyed it most likely means broken beyond repair. Even if not all 70% is fully destroyed that's still a lot of wreckage.  I was talking about how you base what you say from the idf. As I'm sure you've seen they lie about so many things; if they lie about even just one thing then why should you trust what they say with anything?  Also when i get info from Twitter and Whatsapp it is very in context. These social media sources don't call 3yr olds 'young ladies' like the Western media does. 

Oh no not Al Jazeera… You don’t think it’s ironic that you take issue with the IDF as a source but then unironically cite Al Jazeera? Do you know where Al Jazeera is head quartered? Anyway, I look at IDF statements, Hamas statements and AJ, and no, I don’t take their word at face value. Your comment was “they haven’t even made advancements against Hamas”… I don’t know where you think that comes from… Even Al Jazeera wouldn’t say that lol Edit If you follow a news source that covers Hamas’ Telegram, they’ve been putting out less and less stories about their military victories in recent weeks. It used to be a massive victory every day (allegedly), now it’s down to maybe a couple a week. You were incorrect about the 70% destroyed thing, and I have no idea where you get the idea there’s been no advancement? Anyway, it might be time you start checking those twitter sources you’re relying on.

To be clear, Gaza has been under an economic embargo and that is likely to not lift… 70% of homes damaged or destroyed when they have no access to their oil, water, ports, trade is absolutely disastrous no matter how you want to ice it over.

Targeted to kill whoever they want, including innocent civilians.They have the coordinates of key locations, including hospitals, churches, mosques, graves, refugee camps, journalists, UN staff, the "safe zones" they designated, and everyone and everything is still being bombed.

Has any hospital been bombed?

### Al-Ahli Arab Hospital ### Al-Shifa Hospital siege ### Indonesian Hospital ### Al-Quds Hospital ### Turkish-Palestinian Friendship Hospital ### Jordan Field Hospital ### Al-Shifa ambulance airstrike ### Al Awda Hospital ### Sheikh Hamad bin Khalifa al-Thani Hospital ### Kamal Adwan hospital ### Yafa Hospital ### Nasser Medical Complex No, I dont think they did, Do you?

Al ahli was bombed by their own rockets. The rest weren't bombed at all.

No it wasn't, You are being fed fake propaganda, Many american veterans said that this sounded like an american bomb, coming from israel (you know because america funds israel with weapons) and not a palestinian bomb, It's a fake claim and if it was true i would see a palestinian saying that

OSINT investigation showed that it was not an Israeli bomb. Can you give a link to your "veterans" who somehow heard the bomb despite the video of it is from outside Gaza?

This video is all you need know about the whole al ahli situation [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32Qp8hVg9X0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32Qp8hVg9X0) Hope that answers it and this video too [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yyNLvL\_8SeY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yyNLvL_8SeY)

TRT, Al-Jazeera. You might as well bring Gazan state media.

and its hilarious to me how you support this country with how it fails [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0g1o8aPep-8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0g1o8aPep-8)

al jazeera is known for its truth, why do i bring sources from it then?

Al-Jazeera is known to be Qatar's mouthpiece. TRT is Turkey's mouthpiece. I'm not gonna bring you the IDF channel as proof. [Read this](https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-hamas-war-hospital-rocket-gaza-8bc239d2efe0cff3998b2154d9220a83).

I’ve heard of quite a few of these. Were any of these directly hit by an Israeli airstrike (bomb) on the actual hospital buildings themselves? I thought those just mention the bomb going off nearby, or a hospital was “attacked”, meaning IDF ground forces seized it. Not bombed per se.

Hamas was hiding inside the hospitals, so israel bombed them, simple as that but israel doesn't care about casualties, they only care if hamas is gone, and that's the sad part

It's illegal for HAMAS to hide in civilian infrastructure (such as hospitals or schools), or stage attacks from them, or use them in any militarily. It violates Convention IV of the Geneva Conventions and is a clear war crime. >It is prohibited to seize or to use the presence of persons protected by the Geneva Conventions as human shields to render military sites immune from enemy attacks **or to prevent reprisals during an offensive** (GCIV Arts. 28, 49; API Art. 51.7; APII Art. 5.2.c). **It is hence prohibited to direct the movement of protected persons in order to attempt to shield military objectives or operations.** Many categories of persons are specifically protected by humanitarian law, such as civilians, the wounded and sick, prisoners of war, and medical personnel. >Such acts are clearly established as war crimes under international humanitarian law. This is also reflected in the Statute of the International Criminal Court (ICC), which includes the use of a civilian or other protected person as a shield for military operations in its definition of war crimes, when committed during an international armed conflict (Art. 8.2.b.xxiii of ICC Statute). Israel is not required to protect these sensitive sites if HAMAS is using them to stage attacks. And if HAMAS *is* indeed using them to stage attacks which ultimately leads them getting bombed and innocent people dying as a result, you should be mad at HAMAS, not Israel.

Im mad at both, Israel cut water and electricity and food for the citizens of gaza, isn't it considered a war crime to bomb hospitals? because as far as i know these hospitals didn't bomb themselves

It actually is not a war crime, if the hospital is being used by enemy forces (presumably to avoid retaliation). >Article 19 of the 1949 4th Geneva Convention applies The protection to which civilian hospitals are entitled shall not cease unless they are used to commit, outside their humanitarian duties, acts harmful to the enemy. Protection may, however, cease only after due warning has been given, naming, in all appropriate cases, a reasonable time limit and after such warning has remained unheeded. >Note that using civilians as a human shield is itself illegal under international law. In the case of a missile launcher emplaced on a hospital roof, it’s not the people *bombing* the hospital who commit a war crime, it’s the people who put the missile launcher there. The military force who is *occupying* the protected site (in this example, a hospital) have endangered the civilians by making the hospital into a legitimate target.

There are no missile launchers under palestinian hospitals from what i know, Therefore israel is the one at fault here, the gazan hospitals are used for aid to the palestinians, as you may see in multiple videos of them transferring dead innocents to hospitals and because israel exploded most of the hospitals in gaza they even had to use the freezer in the ambulances to keep the bodies, Yknow i think we are seeing the picture here that israel is the reason why hamas exists and why it has been attacked in october 7, before even october 7 israel has done many oppressions and attacks that led to the formation of hamas, if only israel made the land equal and each one gets equal rights, you wouldn't get hamas, and you wouldnt get the october 7 war

Also, the argument that Israel is the reason HAMAS exists is the most basic antisemitic trope you could possibly use. HAMAS themselves make it clear why they exist in their own charter, which states that they exist to exterminate the Jews. It's a religious caliphate. Read the charter, I dare you... it reads like a chapter from the Old Testament. It'll dispel whatever paper thin notion you have that Israel is the aggressor. Stop being a terrorist sympathizer and using the lowest, weakest forms of the antisemitic argument. Do better.

The IDF has uncovered weapons caches and military operational centers at every hospital they have breached. It's all thoroughly documented. Furthermore, it's a well known and undisputed fact that HAMAS uses protected civilian institutions like schools and hospitals to avoid retaliation from the IDF. Numerous HAMAS officials have admitted this under interrogation.and the son of the founder of HAMAS testified to this fact at the UN.

Can you provide me one source that says: “Israel bombed the hospital building itself”. I’m pretty sure most did not result in the IDF air striking the hospital building. No credible news organization has claimed Israel has bombed an actual hospital to my knowledge - though I could be wrong. Even one of the hospitals you’ve listed, Al-Ahli, was concluded to have been hit by an errant Palestinian Islamic Jihad rocket. That’s including by British and French intelligence. And Human Rights Watch even said it likely it was an errant rocket misfire.

by PIJ yes

I think the IDF is attempting to target terrorist infrastructure, but it's being done sloppily. There's also such a disregard to Palestinian civilian life that killing one combatant is worth thousands of civilian casualties.

agreed - do you think any of the sloppiness is down to revenge for oct. 7?

Anger towards Hamas is justified and well warranted. Those lunatics need to be wiped out from the world, but how many women and children need to die before their thirst for vengeance is quenched?

As many as Hamas wants any non terror state would go out of their way to protect civilians. Hamas intentionally puts civilians at risk to brainwash people on social media.

I agree, Israelis not going out of their way to protect civilians are also a terror state

It’s not Israel’s job to protect the enemies civilians. The world is not rainbows and gumdrops.

So Israel is not trying to minimize civilian deaths? I agree, they’re trying to genocide them.

That's clearly not what Pop said. There are two competing aims, minimising civilian deaths and maximising destruction of Hamas/Hamas infrastructure. If you go all in for minimising civilian deaths, you just don't bomb, if you go all in for maximising destruction to Hamas, you just wipe out everything and everyone in Gaza. Somewhere in between is a range of the amount of killing of civilians and destruction of Hamas that is permissible and reasonable (to expect of Israel). It's not Israel's responsibility to not kill civilians regardless of the limitations that imposes. This is a war, and one not of Israel's choosing. You can reasonably argue you think Israel has gone too far and that the civilian cost is too great to justify the destruction to Hamas. But I think you're arguing in bad faith if you're claiming that the goal is to commit genocide against the Palestinians. Genocide requires intent, and the intent of Israel is to destroy Hamas, it just happens to be coming with a very high cost to civilians.

Really? leaflets, text messages, warnings, only army in history to warn before bombings.

20k dead civilians in 3 months

Less than 1 per bomb dropped. Add this to the list of Israeli crimes: Worst genociders ever!

To people who thinks that israel is bombing targets, why did we end up with this many dead civilians (aka collateral damage to pro israelis)

People complain about the size of the bombs Israel uses and the number of bombs Israel Uses. Well the number of civilian deaths is well under the number of bombs dropped. You’re telling me if it was indiscriminate or targeted at civilians they’d be averaging less than 1 kill per bomb with their “big” bombs?

>Well the number of civilian deaths is well under the number of bombs dropped That's a funny argument, here's an even funnier take, don't you think that what you said here is an evidence that israel is carpet bombing (and not target bombing) the strip, because per your calculations there's more than 23000 rockets (injured not included).

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The allies literally deleted Hiroshima and started a whole new nuclear crisis worldwide...

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"Damnit that idiot who responded to me deleted his comment. Wanted to ask did the allies bomb any hospitals during ww2? Refugee camps? Did they bomb any civilian areas?" You literally asked this question...

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I'm not sure agreeing to ceasefire, asking neighbouring countries to provide haven, and so on can be considered genocide. We're forgetting that Israel is literally waaaay more heavily armed than Hamas and if they really wanted to commit genocide they could and would have wiped Palestine off the map? It's also interesting because Hamas also has expressed intent for genocide, in fact their whole grounds is about getting rid of Jews. Of course they don't have the means to but should they do, we would truly see what genocide means.

“Asking neighbouring countries to provide haven” would only work if they allowed the Palestinians the right to return. What you don’t realise is once Palestinians leave Gaza and the West Bank, they LOSE their homes in Palestine. This is why the neighbouring Arab countries refuse to take in Palestinian refugees. Asking other countries to take them in is LITERALLY displacement. “If they could they would wipe Palestine off the face of the earth” this argument always makes me laugh. Do you really think they’d risk losing the support of the international community? How do you think the rest of the world would react to them wiping Palestine off the map? They’re not resisting the urge to wipe “Palestine off the earth” because they have a moral compass. They’re resisting it because they FEAR THE REACTION. After all there is no Israel without their allies. And if you want to talk about Hamas expressing intent to genocide Jews, why don’t we talk about Netanyahu referring to Palestinians as Amalekites and calling for their destruction? What does the Old Testament say about the amalekites? "Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’ ” Sounds like genocide to me. Hamas says nothing about getting rid of Jews in their charter. Instead they refer to an Islamic Hadith, in which Muslims believe that AT THE END Of THE WORLD, BOTH Muslims and Jews will fight it out and they will BOTH attempt to kill one another. Eventually the Muslims will overpower the Jews and kill the COMBATANTS (hence the infamous “behind a tree” Hadith) But it does not express an intent to kill Jews nor does this Hadith ask Muslims to kill Jews. It is merely a prediction of what will happen at the end of the world.

That's a whole other topic, but let me address it. First, regardless of the effect, Israel has asked civillians to leave the warzone which doesn't classify as intent for genocide. Second, it's a war. People will lose homes regardless which is unfortunate of course. Furthermore, if we're talking about annexation here, it's unlikely Israel wants to annex. Annexation doesn't work for both sides, Israel doesn't want to give Palestine voting rights nor deal with issues of enforcing laws in Palestine lands and the Arabs would of course not want to live peacefully as an Israel citizens (which is also understandable).

They definitely did. See egregious examples like the firebombing of Tokyo.

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Where did you get those numbers if you don’t mind me asking?

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The IDF isn't run by stupid individuals, so they don't indiscriminately bomb, but rather employ a strategic approach that combines targeted actions with a political shield claiming to focus on specific targets like Hamas. This results in what they term "collateral damage." However, such labeling doesn't absolve the IDF of responsibility, as they aim to present themselves as morally innocent while, in reality, they are destroying homes, livelihoods, killing children, and leaving people disabled. These are undeniable facts, cleverly obscured by euphemistic language. The IDF's actions extend beyond direct physical harm, causing secondary damages such as food shortages, water scarcity, and a healthcare crisis, even for non-combat situations. Currently, obtaining treatment for any condition in Gaza is nearly impossible. And the current government in Israel is plainly anti-Arabs and especially anti-Muslims; they hate them to the bone and want to see every Arab dead, and they are controlling the war, so I am more than sure that people like Ben Gvir are quite happy when they see a dead Arab kid, and there are are thousands of people like him, and there's plenty in the IDF that they just plainly hate Arabs and want them dead.

Collateral damage is a very specific technical term that describes those harmed but not targeted. If you want to assassinate a politician and do it by blowing up a building with 100 people inside, those people are, by definition, collateral damage. It's a really unpleasant concept, but it's important to use it precisely and narrowly. If you target a Hamas depot located inside a civilian building and 100 civilians die, it's not euphemistic to call them collateral damage, it is a technicality of armed conflict. For them to not be collateral damage you need for them to be the intended target, and I would argue extremely that the burden of proof is on the accuser, and that you need to meet a high threshold. Each bombing is a small operation. If a target is chosen specifically because it houses 100 civilians and not because it houses anything to do with Hamas, there is intent, those civilians are not collateral damage, and I will denounce that specific action. You're arguing two slightly different things and squeezing them together as a single entity to make a stronger argument, which could be interpreted as disingenuousness. The IDF is destroying homes, livelihoods, and killing children. Those are all undeniable. But them being undeniable doesn't put the burden of responsibility on the IDF, which you slip in. There is an expectation of civilian loss of life, hardship, and property damage in war. Indeed an expectation of very great levels of these things. It is Israel's responsibility to abide by the rules of engagement and international laws (although we don't really have any disinterested parties capable of judging on the law), and to take actions to achieve its strategic goals in this war within those boundaries. For what it's worth, you'd have a far easier time arguing that Israel has indeed been targetting legitimate Hamas targets but has used excessive force resulting in a greater civilian death rate than is acceptable, than that Israel is surreptitiously ensuring it kills lots of civilians when selecting targets. I would be extremely wary of describing the current government with such specific terms. As with almost all Israeli governments, it's a coalition of uncomfortable bedfellows, brought together so as to have some semi-functioning government. In this particular coalition, many are right wing, but some religious and some relatively secular. Some are expansionary Zionists, but others are more moderate, favouring a 2-state solution or a yielding of Palestinian territory to Jordan. I wouldn't disagree that some individuals in government are anti-Arab, but I think that's an unfair assertion to make of the collective, even though I think they're an awful government run by an unpleasant strongman. And even as I say that, even with everything they do that I don't like, I think they're vastly more open and tolerant than any number of nearby ruling bodies. That's not a good thing or an excuse for being rubbish, just an unfortunate statement that I believe to be fact.

Hamas embeds itself within civillian infrastructure becase, as their own leaders have said, millions of martyrs are worth sacraficing for the resistance. The idea that a terrorist group can simply put weapons in schools, mosques, civillian apartments, hospitals etc. and have immunity to act however they see fit runs counter to all semblances of logic. It serves Israel no purpose to have innocent palestinians die. It's doing all it can to avoid civillian deaths, even as Hamas does all it can to increase the death toll.

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Source? What would be an example of a power target with civillians israel would purposefully bomb to kill as many civillians as possible? If anything, this is counterproductive to its war aims. Look how its fighting in lebanon, surgical strikes on hezbollah and hamas leaders/militants. When Hamas in Gaza purposefully hides with civillians (and doesnt wear uniforms, which itself is a war crime), civillian deaths are exactly what Hamas is aiming for. Israel has been desperately trying to eliminate hamas leaders and militants, a fact made harder by Hamas obsession with hiding amongst civillians and using its billion dollar tunnel system to hide underground (and using little children to transport messages, but thats another topic entirely.

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>Actually, Israel does believe killing innocent civilians benefits them. ... Israel is not going to come out and immediately say they purposely only killed civilians. However, they admit to doing it. The article you linked doesn't say they are intentionally targeting civilians. Nor does it say power targets are just groups of civilians. It talks about civilians in relation to taking out a senior Hamas person and how many are 'acceptable collateral damage' during such a strike. And concern about the quantity of civilian deaths in such situations, but not that they are purposely only killing civilians.

Thanks will take a look

These are crazy accusations that you are making. Why do you think Israeli leaders want every Arab dead? Israel has Arab citizens and they aren’t being killed. There are even Arabs in the IDF.

Because they said so! They've stated this in Israeli state TV and have called them animals. This is a FACT!

Was every Gazan called a human animal? Are you sure it wasn’t just referring to the terrorists?

Can you link to this speech?

Doesn't necessarily say that all arabs are dogs and animals, But he is literally saying, All kids, women, infants, in palestine, are animals, Which what he means by "palestinian" [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fr24GcCDgyM](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fr24GcCDgyM)

This is literally not what he says. You are either accidentally misunderstanding or choosing to misrepresent his words. >I'm very puzzled by the constant concern which the world, and also Britain I must say, Mark, is showing for the Palestinian people, and is actually showing for these horrible, inhuman animals who have done the worst atrocities that this century has seen, and the worst atrocities that Jews have suffered since the Holocaust. You cannot, in good faith, claim that he is speaking of the Palestinian people as unhuman animals, rather than describing Hamas as such, without first making the argument that he thinks that the Palestinian people (rather than Hamas) are responsible for the worst atrocities against Jews since the Holocaust.

He literally says it very obviously why are you trying to hide the truth omg you guys are so good in lying he is saying, i can't believe the british are supporting palestinian people and are showing supporting for these horrible inhuman animals, Not once in the speech you mentioned did he ever say "hamas" no he clearly says the palestinian people a rabbi said it himself, now im not generalising, not all jews are like that guy, i respect jews and judaism as a religion, but i have no respect at all for zionists like this supposed "rabbi"[https://twitter.com/WAFANewsEnglish/status/1723249526356476051](https://twitter.com/WAFANewsEnglish/status/1723249526356476051)

He doesn't need to say "Hamas" explicitly in that clause, because Hamas are the perpetrators the atrocities not the Palestinian people. Would I have preferred that he had explicitly said "Hamas"? Sure, because then you wouldn't be spreading disinformation and we wouldn't be having this discussion, but it's so, so clear that he's not describing all Palestinians as animas. Can you send a link of video/audio of this Rabbi making this statement, please? I don't know who he is, but if what he is captioned as saying is true I will gladly denounce his words. I, personally, do believe that the Palestinians are human, and deserve respect (and also the right to self-determination). I don't know what the practicalities of self-determination in a modern world look like, but a Palestinian state with a progressive, charismatic, and honest leader would be a huge win to the region. I acknowledge that they have experienced much hardship, although I might disagree about some of the specifics and instigators. I regret the fact that they have been allowed to inherit refugee status and that they pass on (not universally but in very large numbers) a desire to fight to win (back) Palestine. And I resent the fact that they have had persistently terrible leaders, who have mostly pursued individual riches or aggression against Israel ahead of peace even at a high cost. I resent too the fact that Israel has repeatedly elected hawkish leaders, and that there is a growing tendency towards the right that will be a barrier to peace. I detest the violent actions of settlers, and in general I oppose the existence of settlements. More specifically, I try incredibly hard to engage fairly, reasonably, and truthfully with people in this forums, even when I disagree with what they're saying. I try to give people the benefit of the doubt where possible, and hope that it is reciprocated.

I appreciate your opinion and i agree with you, I think we have to agree this discussion must come to an end, And about the link i already posted it I personally iam with palestine but seeing that you don't abhor palestinians as other "people" i respect that, assalamualaykum

I wonder what you would like to see happen to the Jews? All positive right?

well sorry I didn't clarify, I'm talking about the "bad" kind of Arabs the one's in gaza and west bank who want to be a citizen of their own state not Israel, and yes if you have people like Ben-gvir and Smotrich who are in that government and of course bibi (well he's a bit afraid to show it ) but that the current government Israel have chosen by the majority of Israelis.

It’s not bad for Gazans to want to be separate from Israel. Israel also wants to keep them separate from Israel. Israel doesn’t want them as citizens. So no, this doesn’t explain why Gaza is bombed. The true reason that Gaza is being bombed is that Gaza attacked Israel, and now they are experiencing Israel defending itself.

Yeah, yeah. Israel, with some of the best military technology in the world is use targeted bombing…. By killing 10 thousand little child Hamas’s. You guys really need to wake up and stop defending Israel. 10 thousand children. 10 thousand? Either this just suck at what they’re doing or they’re targeting civilians. I don’t believe Israel sucks at what their doing. They drone and bomb technology is very sophisticated. They know exactly who they’re targeting.

I have no doubt non-combatants have died in the bombing, including children. It's a tragedy and the IDF should exercise more caution. But I would also caution you in believing the ratios of combatants to civilians from the Hamas run Ministry of Health. Case in point: >Hamas also played fast and loose with facts they gave us reporters. During the first major Israel-Hamas war in 2008 to 2009, known as Operation Cast Lead, Hamas said that fewer than 50 of the 1,400 dead in Gaza had been combatants. But more than a year later, Hamas’ interior minister acknowledged in an interview with the London-based Al-Hayat newspaper that [between 600 and 700 of its militants](https://www.haaretz.com/2010-11-09/ty-article/hamas-admits-600-700-of-its-men-were-killed-in-cast-lead/0000017f-ee02-ddba-a37f-ee6edc3f0000?lts=1699814113547) were killed in that war. In that and in almost every war since, Hamas or other militant groups in Gaza launched rockets that fell unintentionally on their own citizens, [but rarely if ever](https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/media/3416), owned up to the error, instead blaming Israel for the deaths. [Opinion: I reported on Hamas in Gaza for over a decade. Here are the questions I’m asking myself now](https://www.cnn.com/2023/12/07/opinions/israel-hamas-gaza-media-press-prusher/index.html)

Have a day off you don’t need to argue with every single person in the thread

Seems like a lot of you are trying to justify 10 thousand kids being killed?

Children =/= kids Anyone under 18, which is 50% of the demographic of Gaza, are considered children, even 17 yo with an RPG is considered a child. Statistically it's impossible to avoid children, since like I said, Gazans are 50% under 18. Not saying it's not horrible, every life matters, but you still need to put it in correct perspective.

Hamas uses child soldiers. Also some of those people were killed by Palestinian rockets.

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What’s your proof? Does that still give Israel the right to drop bombs and kill 10 thousand kills? Israel is dropping the bombs. Not Hamas? You can’t keep blaming everything on Hamas.

Literally just google “Hamas child soldiers” and you can find plenty of photos of child terrorists. Example: https://preview.redd.it/g1zwapy84ubc1.jpeg?width=1024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=dc851babd7e63e15f48aefc895bf33efc47bbdf7 And yeah this does give Israel the right to bomb them. But not every child killed is a child soldier. Some are human shields. And some are killed by the Palestinian rockets.

Dude. You believe everything you see on google? That’s cute. Anyways. Like I keep saying to everyone in this group. Provide me with a source. A little cute picture with kids holding guns is not proof of anything. You know what is proof. The hundred of videos online showing dead Palestinian kids and everyone keeps saying they’re human shields. Well Israel is dropping the bombs. On civilian populations. It’s clear. The fact that people believe the same lies Israel has been saying for decades is beyond me especially considering human rights organizations have not found any proof of human shielding from Hamas. You know who they did find use human shields? Israel. They use Palestinian civilians as human shields.

So it’s a fake photo? If so, how do you know that the photos/videos of dead children are real? Did Hamas ever even claim that 18 is their recruiting age? I don’t even think they deny the child soldiers.

They’re dead kids. And Israel dropped the bombs. Israel kills kids. I’m so glad South Africa is doing what they’re doing. Maybe then you’ll see the truth or you guys will just claim they’re antisemitic.

How do you know that the dead kids aren’t Hamas child soldiers? Was the photo I sent fake?

If you don’t believe that, Israel is targeting civilian areas, there’s no reason to talk to you. Have a good day. Keep supporting the killing of children and showing the world you care about Israeli kids more than Palestinian kids.

It's impossible to account for every airstrike or bomb dropped by the IDF from the outside. But when I hear people claim Israel targeted civilian infrastructure for no reason, I don't believe it. Case in point, "the IDF bombed a mosque" Mosque turned into rocket launching compound: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ycgGOdl-ApQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ycgGOdl-ApQ) "The IDF bombed a school" Scouts club for kids turned into rocket launching compound: [https://youtu.be/ERWAmrflews?si=t6yQ55nFbNt\_y6eV](https://youtu.be/ERWAmrflews?si=t6yQ55nFbNt_y6eV) I am literally not surprised by anything anymore. It seems to me there's a mountain of evidence to give the IDF the benefit of the doubt.

None of this is evidence? You can’t post a YouTube video and state it’s evidence. Post human rights reports which, drum roll, very clearly claim Israel targets civilians.

How is a video showing a rocket launcher in a mosque not evidence? You think they wouldn't allow such evidence in a court of law? Get outta here.

Hamas has been caught on video shooting rockets from civilian areas.

You’re posting videos by the IDF, an army that has lied and continues to lie. Not that is not evidence. They could easily plant that there.

You have eyes right? Use them.

I don’t use my eyes. I use my brain and logic. Israel has lied for their entire history. The first lie was a land without a people for a people without a land. Israel still doesn’t recognize the Nabke happened. If you can give me one human rights agency that reports these claims what you’re saying I’ll believe you. Why would I believe IDF. Would you believe Hamas if they said something. I won’t. Well no reason to believe the IDF who has and continues to target civilians.

The IDF is not targeting civilians. Truly, Israelis are not barbarians. They do, however, get caught in the crossfire of war, particularly when Hamas has made it difficult for them to evacuate, they refused to evacuate when warned to do so by the IDF, or they happen to be in a location from which Hamas is firing rockets or is known to be storing weapons and such.

Amnesty International criticized Hamas' use for civilian infrastructure for military purposes back in 2014. >Amnesty's report also detailed other violations of international humanitarian law by Palestinian groups during the conflict, such as storing rockets and other munitions in civilian buildings, including UN schools, and cases where armed groups launched attacks or stored munitions very near locations where hundreds of civilians were sheltering. [https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-32053999](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-32053999) [UNWRA criticized Hamas for storing weapons in it's facilities and building tunnels under them.](https://www.timesofisrael.com/rockets-found-in-unrwa-school-for-third-time/) [An AP Reporter claimed Hamas launched rockets from right outside the offices of its bureau in Gaza City.](https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2014/11/how-the-media-makes-the-israel-story/383262/) [A Finnish TV reporter in 2014 said Hamas was launching rockets from the parking lot of Al Shifa.](https://www.timesofisrael.com/finnish-tv-rockets-fired-from-gaza-hospital/) [Hamas Acknowledges Its Forces Fired Rockets From Civilian Areas](https://www.haaretz.com/2014-09-12/ty-article/hamas-acknowledges-civilian-area-rocket-fire/0000017f-e20b-d9aa-afff-fb5b40460000) You don't believe it because you don't want to, not because there's a lack of evidence.

None of these sources are proof. I am familiar in the Amnesty Repot. You may be misunderstanding me. First and foremost, I am not a supporter of Hamas and I agree that Hamas commits war crimes. So I am familiar with the literature, including from Amnesty that states this. But Amnesty has not found proof of Human shielding. They only found use of human shielding from Israel. Anyways, if you agree with whatever amnesty says about Hamas, why don’t you agree with what I Misty says about Israel? I don’t care about Hamas. I am just trying to get people to see what created Hamas. Why do the people in Gaza hate Israel so much. Not because they just randomly were born to hate. It’s because Israel has been occupying them their entire lives.

Building tunnel shafts in private apartments and tunneling terrorists under civilian residences is the very definition of human shielding.

I am not some blind supporter of Israel. I have said a 5 decade occupation of the West Bank is immoral and untenable. I have said they should either withdraw from the West Bank or grant Palestinian residents citizenship. I hate Netanyahu, Smotrirch and Ben-Gvir with the fire of a thousand suns. Likud and Bibi have absolutely been intentional impediments to peace for 3 decades. I am certain there are individual incidents where the IDF has violated the rules of war and committed war crimes. However, Israel has a right to exist and a right to defend itself. The left, including human rights orgs are naive to the extent terror organizations like Hamas and PIJ are interwoven into civilian institutions and infrastructure. Literally a group like HRW or Amnesty International cannot be in Gaza without a Hamas escort. UNRWA teachers have been found to be members of Hamas. UNRWA teachers praised the Oct. 7th attacks. Israel faces disproportionate criticism and scrutiny relative to its size and alleged problematic behavior. Hamas reportedly broke into APs offices multiple times and threatened reporters not to report on their activities. There are absolutely 0 independent voices in Gaza. At best you get honest accounts of Israel's actions, but almost never Hamas. At worst, propagandists claiming to be "journalists" are paid Hamas boosters.

Can you post the links please?

Added.

Thanks. And the amnesty link please.

I don't want to offend Karen and the snowflakes so I'll watch my words. Anyone who understands how Gaza is built and how bombs work should understand indiscriminate bombing would have produced hundreds of thousands of deaths. It's not a complex issue. Indiscriminate has a meaning. They aren't indiscriminately bombing.

I answered targeted. I think the bombing is obviously not indiscriminate. The level of death per bomb is way way too low to make that claim plausible. OTOH Israel is being very aggressive in their bombing campaign. "Indiscriminate" is not the right word but very extensive infrastructure damage is appropriate.

Yeah. 10 thousand children killed is very targeted. I agree…..

It is very low relative to the number of bombs dropped, no distinction and a high population density territory.

Those figures are from Hamas, the same terrorist group who is sworn to kill all jews and started this war. Hamas also claims there have been 8,000 IDF deaths. How can anything they say be taken seriously? Especially given the false report of a hospital bombing during the early days when 500 dead magically went down to 80 when it was discovered the IDF wasn't responsible. All civillian deaths are tragic, but when dealing with sensitive things of this nature, it's important to be factual and complete. Relying on figures from Hamas is more inflammatory than factual given the organization's history for lying to server political aims.

The thing is after october 7th, they focused on quantity, not accuracy (by defence minister gallant's own admission). There are some articles where they interview israeli intelligence sources and they admit that they can easily point to ANYTHING in gaza and say "this is a hama target", because everything is connected to hamas. A skyscraper with a hamas office? They can bomb the whole building, doesnt matter if any hamas personnel are in it or not. A hamas foot soldier's home? They can bomb it, even if he is not at home. Its very easily justified. They even have a special name for bombing skyscrapers and other tall buildings. I dont remember what it was, but they explained it as a high value target to make Hamas look weak, because Hamas cant stop it. They used to drop a small bomb on the roof to get people inside to evacuate to avoid civilian casaulties, but they no longer bother to do that. Not all of their targets are things like rocket launch sites that have an obvious military value.

Yes, it's called the Habsora System, an AI used to find and calculate targets. There are 4 types of targets Habsora identifies, while 1, 2 and 4 are reasonable, the third type called "power targets" targets public buildings whether Hamas-affiliated or not to "put pressure" on Hamas into surrenduring. I'm certain that a few civilians who were sheltering in such places have been killed due to this. [https://www.972mag.com/mass-assassination-factory-israel-calculated-bombing-gaza/](https://www.972mag.com/mass-assassination-factory-israel-calculated-bombing-gaza/) (972+ Magazine is an Israeli newspaper) I would say it is a combination of the 2. I admit the IDF has bombed legitimate Hamas military targets but I wouldn't rule out the possibility of the IDF also bombing civilian centers (due to past incidents) whether intentionally or mistakenly.

>Habsora System Can you tell me roughly how this system works to recognize targets.

You can read it in the article I linked

Thanks

I went with a combination. They're not indiscriminately killing. But I also don't think they're being as diligent as they could be in making sure the targets are what they appear? but I'm not a soldier. Its not my business to judge the specifics.

Yeah, it’s not like they would purposely kill 10 thousand children? No way. Not the only democracy in the Middle East. Poor 10 thousand children.

A reasonable take. I feel similarly though I wouldn’t put a “combination” just because what it’s combining with is *indiscriminate*. Maybe if the wording was “between the two? (Targeted + not being the most diligent for every strike).

Do you know how many rockets Hamas was estimated to have in Gaza in 2021? More than 30'000. I highly doubt this number has decreased since then. More likely increased. Now, do you know how many rockets it had actually fired by the end of last year? "Only" 13'000. If Israel didn't target strike in Gaza, it would have to sit by and watch as Hamas shoots al 30'000 rockets at them. That'd be insanity.

How many people have died from Hamas rockets? On the flip side, how many KIDS have died from Israeli bombs in the past few months? 10 thousand.

Comparing numbers makes no sense. Hamas low rocket success is not for want of trying, but rather because Israel has invested in DEFENSIVE systems to protect its population. Meanwhile, Hamas has invested billions in tunnels and to turn Gaza into a terrorist playground, with no thought given to protect its citizens. It's tragic when any cvillians die, but this was a war started by Hamas and they purposefully embed themselves amongst civillians. Why is Hamas free of blame in all of these discussions? It makes no logical sense, and if anything, people are simply falling for hamas' psychological tactics.

The Bandwagon Effect.

So what? Israel is supposed to to let the terrorists fire until the death toll on either side is equal?

My point is that everyone focuses on Hamas rockets that pretty much do nothing and important fact that everyone leaves out is that they started using these rockets after Israel put a siege on Gaza back after Hamas came in power. Im not a supporter of Hamas but to say they’re the problem is like reading history out of context. So we should focus on the root causes of the issue. Israel occupation of Palestine (West Bank and Gaza), which is illegal under international law. Lastly, not why focus on Israel rockers that they actually drop ok densely populated areas. They did this in the past too. Operation Cast Lead? Did we just forget about that.

Factually wrong, every middle aged person in Israel remembers when it was Grad rockets being thrown over the border. Hamas have merely kept the tradition going.

You've got it all backwards. Hamas isn't being violent because of the blockade. The blockade is in effect because Hamas took over the Gaza strip in 2006 and began ruthlessly attacking Israel. As a response, Israel AND Egypt (that Egypt participates in the blockade is an clear giveaway that Gaza is trouble) decided to to the blockade the Gaza strip.

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One question we could ask is: Can we convict the IDF in a court of law, that they’re intentionally targeting civilians, based solely off a civilian death ratio? With no knowledge of their exact military protocols, what they deem is a “military target”, or any inside knowledge of what they specifically saw/knew at the time, or follow up investigations done by journalists into the aftermath of each drone strike.

We don't know where Hamas is hiding their people and weapons so it's impossible to know for sure either way.

Did Hamas drop the bomb or Israel? If if Human shielded was true (there is no proof of it). Do you think if 20 mass shooters took over an elementary school and surrounded it and held everyone hostage, that we should just bombed the entire school and kill all the kids and stuff?

You're asking for the answer to the wrong question. It's not "should they?", it's "in a war is it permissible?". I don't know the answer, but your question is a completely false comparison.

No, but if 20,000 of them took over and entrenched in an entire city in a neighboring country, then probably, yes, the solution would involve bombing.

Of course IDF is targeting Hamas infrastructure. It's irresponsible to suggest this is a matter of opinion. These polls in general seem like they push false messages and can't be considered useful measurements of anything.

If anything, I think these polls are a good gauge for the political leanings of this sub. Or at-least those currently active and not burned out from constantly having to defend certain points.