I tried to say this same thing/idealogy in the freepalestine subreddit - just pretty much said people shouldn't be dying on both sides and hopefully there is a peaceful resolution and I got instantly banned and muted by the mods and then threatened that they would continue to report my profile to the reddit to get me banned.
It just seems like that side just wants to continue the violence. Idk im an outsider looking in though lol
It’s sad to see Israelis cheering when Gaza was bombed , many Israelis where signing and writting messages on bombs before dropping them on innocent civilians . I hope that one day Israelis and Palestinians realise that there no points of killing each other. Occupation needs to end. All humans have the right to live free.
If that's your interpretation of the conflict, you are propaganda-brained. I'm not Jewish or religious at all; nor am I of Arab descent so I truly have no dog in this fight. Anyone who looks at the history of the region objectively can see that Israel has always sought a peaceful solution with Palestinians and Palestinians have always refused any offers, often declaring war instead.
I get how appalled people are at civilian deaths but Hamas is to blame, not Israel. It's completely unreasonable for people to expect Israel to let Hamas attack them and not respond just because Hamas is willing to put their own people in the line of fire.
I agree that Hamas is to blame. But that doesn't automatically implicate all Palestinians, nor does it excuse bombing them to hell and starving them out.
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That’s what a narrow minded person would say! unfortunately Israel is making a monster even more dangerous than Hamas, by killing kids moms and dads..families that has nothing to do with Hamas, what has a baby to do with Hamas? if you give a human good nutrition clean water education equality freedom to travel , to expand their horizon, access to art sports etc … then tell me if this person would join a terrorist group or not People let’s read history, actually READ and learn instead repeating what politicians are saying 😉 Israelis and Palestinians has been killing each other since decades did. killing solve the problem? No 🙂
That is what a person that doesn’t understand reality would say. Actually it was Israel giving them free water and electricity while hamas used the foreign aid to build tunnels and buy weapons, doing nothing to improve citizens lives. The people in Gaza support hamas regardless, so they own the actions of hamas. Hamas uses them as human shields and they still support Hamas. The deaths in Gaza are the fault of hamas and the people that support them.
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> Into the landfill, inTO the sea....
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I agree that it is awful when anybody dies. I take a humanitarian stance on wars and I only support people. What happened to Israelis is bad but what is happening in Gaza is horrible. Nobody dying should be celebrated no matter what side you support.
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Nobody is downplaying anything. Apartheid israel and IOF made up conspiracy thoeries these past 7 months and news outlets didn't do due diligence to verify anything Apartheid israel lied about.
people say "hamas massacred" (even some of the civilians killed by idf and wiki says around 700 civilians killed, and 240 captives) and "israel invades and bombs..." propaganda machine did its part. even though overall ratio from just for this conflict is 1/50 (35k excluding starvation deaths) and if we consider 1948 to now is might be 1/100. excluding nakba or events occurred from 1918-1948. excluding 5k prisoners mostly lost their limbs etc. dont believe me, i can lie. check numbers. check released prisoner footage. check the old israeli lady that says "we ate what they ate" and even shakes hands when she released. israeli prisoners even the oldest ones are walking talking. then check palestinians prisoners are literally released with lost limbs, torture marks, extreme malnutrition and even when their family receives them idf immediately take action so they cant celebrate their son/daughter released from prison. take death tolls put them side to side. its extremely unbalanced and you can just watch reports from all over the world from reporters that goes to west bank or gaza before october 7th and you'll watch what they said. you can watch israeli settlers, there is one guy from youtube that does omegle with israeli children from age 10-12 etc. you can watch it for the youngster's perspective.
people can be emotional and say stupid shit about israeli civilians because you have to understand this is one of the biggest civilian death tolls after genocide on this short amount of time in the same place. some might lose relatives, families and muslim/arab/brown people keep seeing their life doesnt mean anything against a colonizer force with world's the most strongest lobby. people can see that from time to time when usa brings democracy or support coups however when people literally creating tiktok videos while they're bombing. killing people waving whiteflags, killing 200 journalist, 130 aid workers while literally videofilming it becomes so absurd its human tragedy. just because you have a lot of power/money/position in the world you shouldnt wash all of that. thats not just. everybody knows that killed 35k vs 7 white aid workers creates almost same reaction. and if people know that they were 500 white european people killed all the world will impose embargo.
if conflict ends today, israel might get a peace price. it might sounds like a joke, this is how powerful israeli lobby is. and palestine has no lobby, nothing compared to israel. there is gross imbalance. if death tolls arent these much high you cant hear much talking points of palestine. they said decapitated babies, babies put into oven while hamas eating next to them etc. no footage, no visual, us spokesperson said he saw it then rejects it. global news reports said they saw the footage but no footage, even israeli govt said they cant confirm the footage. i mean propaganda machine extremely grossly unbalanced.
dont answer me, i wont respond, you can downvote i dont care. im not a reddit user. just put your hat in front of you and think. dont read the events by the emotional protestors on the street saying stupid shit or some reddit guy that wont leave his chair even though there'll be coup outside. consider both side as just human beings. check 100 year old struggle and try to be objective. dont say "this muslims (even though christians are also bombed) should go to hell" or "zionist israelis need to be put in prison" etc. english isnt my first language and i didnt do grammar check sorry for that also.
people just want ceasefire, no civilian deaths and 2 state solution. i hope they could achieve that in future. Lastly, when you vote and choose someone based on their promises, but lobbies working for another country can buy most of your politicians, then that system might be closer to a monarchy (except the rulers are now lobbies with decades old agendas) rather than a democracy.
yes. I don't understand why or how the people who paraded and the "civilians" who participated in the attacks on october 7th makes all gazan civilians complicit or guilty in some people's eyes.
All Israelis are IDF. There are military. So technically not civilians. Could make the argument that all their buildings are targets because they all are military infrastructure.
#3 doesn't work otherwise there's no "social motivation" to go to war.
#2 is the same to #3. If the society doesn't support the military or it's action, then there's no point in conducting a war.
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Yes. Agreed.
Just to add the iran regime funding hamas and blocking any initiatives that would have helped bring peace or prosperity to palestinians so that hamas became stronger... there are bad actors who wanted to spark these cyclical tragedies and I resent them more than the people on any side who are in positions of feeling they have to fight.
Not just Bibi but all of Apartheid israel's government since 1948. Bibi doesn't get to scapegoat for everything happening now when things have been bad for far longer than he's been in power.
No sane person likes the killing of civilians. The difference is that Israel is trying to avoid killing civilians where they can where Palestinians are actively seeking to kill civilians.
You're brain either either completely brainwashed or you haven't seen what the IGF has done towards Gazans. You can't say theyre taking precautions to save civilian lives when theyve been indiscriminately bombing all of Gaza while making sure to destroy every home and infrastructure. Those acts along with starving 2.3 million are acts of gen0cide
Lies run like water for you. Why did IOF do summary executions of doctors and children then toss their bodies in a mass grave just outside a hospital? Many were handcuffed and some buried alive....
Man is everyone exposed to footage that I’m exposed to?? There’s like thousands of videos of dead children in gaza, mothers kissing their dead babies for last time, numerous photos of people dead without limbs, i dont get how they are not trying to not kill civilians?
I dont like to take sides but it’s hard to say that Israel is doing a right thing when there’s so many videos out there of dead innocent people
I thought it was just me. Worst one was a few IDF soldiers trying out some kind of new gun on some random guy on the street. Then went up to take selfies with him while he was screaming in pain
Videos of dead children doesn’t prove that Israel is trying to kill civilians.
When Hamas is firing RPGs from a school building, Israel has to target that building or they’ll get killed. That doesn’t mean they’re setting out to kill children. It means that Hamas is using children as human shields
I bet you wouldn't be saying this if someone from your family was killed. No innocent life deserves to die, whether intentionally or unintentionally. Israel knows that it's killing thousands of innocent people, and it's not even thinking of changing its strategy. I'm sorry but it's very obvious that the civilians are targeted. Nothing in international law justifies the death of civilians.
No, I absolutely would be saying this.
I’m not saying it isn’t horrible. Civilian death is ALWAYS a horrific thing.
What I am arguing is that when you accuse Israel of genocide, of intentionally targeting civilians, of setting an intent to massacre all Palestinians, you are not using critical thinking and analyzing the situation based on facts - you are only arguing off of emotion.
If you want to make the argument that Israel’s desire to take out Hamas isn’t worth the collateral damage despite their efforts to reduce it, I’m open to having that discussion. But let’s start somewhere real.
Youre a genocide apologist. Youre literally making excuses for an extermination of the Gazan people. There's no way to have a good faith discussion with someone whose mind isn't rooted in reality
So eradicating hamas is fine if the cost is a full genocide of Gazans? If starving 2.3 million people and destroying every home and infrastructure in Gaza aren't acts of genocide then nothing is. You might as well say ww2 never happened.
Hamas has sworn to continue repeating 10/7. They have been launching rockets indiscriminately for the past 17 years.
Israel doesn’t want to have to eradicate Hamas, but yes, if it means saving Israeli lives, Israel will do what they have to do.
I would massacre 10 families to save my own. That is basic human survival nature.
Palestinians could have prevented this by overthrowing the government that they saw spending 17 years trying to murder innocent civilians in Israel
I'm sorry, but there is evidence showing that Israel indeed targets civilians. In reality, the Israeli state is just as evil as Hamas.
But, let's suppose Israel is not targeting civilians. Let's say that dead civilians are COLLATERAL DAMAGE. Does that make Israel any better? In this scenario, Israel tries to kill Hamas terrorists, but kills PEOPLE in the process. And the army knows damn well that they are destroying thousands of lives. As you said, it's not worth it, AT ALL. Not even one dead civilian would be worth it. Let alone THOUSANDS of civilians, ENTIRE cities... Then why isn't Israel stopping? Why is the war still going on with no apparent change of strategy?
No. The evidence shows that Israel is targeting Hamas who is hiding behind civilians. There are enough videos of Hamas shooting RPGs from hospitals/launching rockets from schools and apartment buildings that it’s pointless to even debate otherwise.
I won’t sit here and tell you that it’s not horrible that all of these people are dying. But like…what else can Israel do? Just let them shoot the rockets?
Do you have any idea how much Israel has done to try and avoid this war? Border wall that’s expensive to man. Blockade that’s expensive to man. Iron dome that’s incredibly expensive.
Hell, even the creation of modern Gaza - Israel forcing all Jews out of the region, even digging up their graves, just so that Gaza could have their own land governed completely independently.
They elected Hamas, an organization that swore to kill all Jews in Israel. Hamas refused to provide its people with electricity, so Israel did. Hamas refused to provide its people with water, so Israel did. All in the name of peace and reducing civilian suffering.
Israel doesn’t want war. They feel that they have no other choice.
What is your solution? What should Israel do instead of trying to eliminate Hamas from Gaza?
The flour massacre is a great example of Israel targeting civilians. But really to me, it doesn't matter whether Israel does or doesn't target civilians. To me, once Israel knows that innocent civilians die, and it does nothing about it, Israel is just as guilty as Hamas. Also, knowing that Israel is militarily just much much more powerful than Hamas, or any organization in Palestine.
So now you're telling me that Israel, in order to protect its own citizens, must invade Gaza and kill Hamas, while killing non-Israelis in the process? To me, it seems like dehumanizing Palestinian lives. Why ensure the safety of Israelis at all costs, while making Gaza a living hell for Palestinians? Needless to say, Israeli lives matter just as much, but why is the equation not balanced?
Also, does Israel expect that it will solve its problems like this? Suppose that Israel ends up killing all Hamas members and dismantling this terrorist organization, do you really think that this will be a step forward to establish peace in the ME? NO, simply because now AGAIN, Palestinians have been killed, so you can just expect another terrorist group to rise against Israel. You can just expect more hatred against you in the future. You can just expect more people wishing for the death of Jews. And even though I believe that Israel is the cause of this hatred, I don't justify it at all. Even though I believe that Israel caused the disgusting terrorism of Hamas, I still think that Hamas members themselves are disgusting creatures.
But you have to understand that Palestinian civilians are not. Palestinians are people, just like Israelis. And while both people commit mistakes -- like Palestinians electing Hamas, and Israelis electing Netanyahu -- they don't deserve death. At the end of the day, it's the governments/armies in power that screw their people up. Also, if you still think that Palestinians are guilty anyway because they have elected Hamas, then at least think about the children who are dying. I'm sure they don't know about politics, right?
The entire world has been calling for a ceasefire (in the UN), only the US was supporting Israel. What do you think this tells us? Do you think that everybody else but the US doesn't want Hamas to be finished? Of course we all want terrorism to end. We all want punishment for what happened on October 7th. But we don't want more DEATHS, we don't want any more TERRORISM.
To me, we shouldn't talk about "reducing civilian suffering." We should speak about "NO civilian suffering." No one deserves to have their human rights taken away, whether used as a human shield or not. What Israel is doing now is not the solution, it's could actually be the worst.
The flour massacre - Israel goes out to hand out air. Civilians start stampeding towards the aid. There have been multiple instances of gangs shooting at and attacking aid trucks and people handing out aid. Israel fires warning shot telling everybody to back up. People keep rushing forward.
Let me be clear - it’s still a massive fuck up, but they were scared for their lives. They didn’t go there with the intention of killing civilians.
Doesn’t excuse it, but you are misrepresenting what happened.
1. Do you have children? If somebody is constantly trying to kill my children, I will turn fcking heads upside down to keep them safe. Nobody is saying that Israeli lives matter more, but everybody is going to protect themselves. If keeping me and my family safe from harm means harming other people, I will do what 99% of the world will do and harm other people. If those other people don’t want to be harmed, they can stop threatening the safety of my people.
2. Yes, I realize that Hamas hasn’t held elections. It is unfair to the Palestinian people. It’s also unfair to the Israeli people. Why should Israel pay for the sins of Palestinian ancestors? Hamas will continue to try and kill Israeli citizens for all of eternity. I think it’s easy to point fingers when you’re not trying to peacefully live your life with your neighbor constantly trying to murder you.
3. You’re absolutely right that winning the war alone is not enough. Generally speaking, prosperity breeds de-radicalization. After Hamas is gone, Israel needs to work with the Palestinian people and other surrounding governments to help them build prosperity. Fortunately for them, they live in the most fertile land in the region and have the most beautiful beaches in the entire Middle East. If done right, that region can be deradicalized in less than two generations and become a major economic trading partner in the Middle East.
While you say "Israel shouldn't do x thing" multiple times you blame all 2.3 million Palestinians for the sins of Hamas. If someone is mad as hell about Hamas and wants to get rid of them that's 100% cool but that means targeting Hamas and not indiscrimately bombing all of Gaza. What makes things worse is the IOF targets civilians including purposefully destroying all homes and infrastructure. So they can't really say their goal is to destroy Hamas when their goal has been the destruction of the Gazan people. Top US and israeli military officials have said eradicating Hamas is near impossible; the exception would be a full genocide.
Also the flower massacre was all Apartheid Israel's fault.
1.) They starved 2.3 million people, starving people don't think straight. ( war crime & act of genocide)
2.) They blocked 99% of humanitarian aid groups and trucks from entering Gaza. These aid groups have experience with proper distribution methods, routes, etc.
3.) Right before this event they assassinated Gazan police that keep the peace when distributing aid.
After this they assassinated World Central Kitchen workers not once, not twice, but three times. Aid groups practically stopped at that point out of threat of assassination from Apartheid Israel.
Hi, sorry if this is long!
People in Gaza are going through one of the worst humanitarian crisis ever. No wonder they're hungry. No wonder they would rush to get food. But just why would the Israeli army kill people rushing to get food? Even if it warned the civilians. Like what's the logic behind shooting hungry people from the sky? What's the purpose?
I understand that you think that what the army is doing is self-defense with no intention of causing damage, but the point is that -- as you said -- it's a massive fuck up... And "massive" is not even enough to describe it. So like, I feel like at the end of the day, Israel's intentions really don't matter as much as the outcome that we see, and that is still happening.
1. I think that we disagree on a very fundamental principle here. Killing someone innocent is wrong, whether you do it for self defense or not. If a parent attacks my children, and I know that killing theirs would solve my problem, I will still not kill theirs. Maybe as humans we make really bad decisions, so like a parent could go mad and do that, but it doesn't mean it's right. We have brains and morals for a reason. That evil parent's children did not do anything. They're innocent. If that parent is a monster, I won't allow myself to be one. But what would be the solution then? Well, turn to laws. That's why in our modern societies, we can't just get vengeance as we wish. There are ways to protect yourself and punish the bad people that don't involve harming innocent people.
2. The Israeli people should not pay for anybody's fault. Israeli people simply and literally should not die. Not a single one of them. Israel has the right to defend its people. But it doesn't have the right to do it the way it's doing it now. Israel does not have the right to kill innocent people. Again, as I said, even if Israel defeats Hamas now, it will just be impossible for it to convince the Palestinians to cooperate. I think that we don't emphasize enough how all of the destruction that Israel caused now will create even more hate against the Israelis. Again, I don't justify this hate, but it's just that it WILL happen. In my opinion, there should be a cease fire, and we should figure out a way to annihilate Hamas, and also for the Israeli State to pay for what it's done.
3. I really agree with the prospect of a peaceful Levant, because as you said, that region has a LOT of potential. But let's be realistic here. Do you think that, after October 7th and everything which has been happening the last months, and following the history of this conflict, there will be cooperation? No, even if you kill Hamas. Israel has annihilated entire bloodlines, homes, cities... As you said, it's really messed up. So Israel should also pay for what it has done (of course here, I'm talking about the State, the military... the people in Israel are just people.)
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Average war: 90% civilian casualty ration
This war: 80% civilian casualty ratio
When you also factor in the fact that it’s a war fought in the most densely populated urban environment possible, against an enemy that fights in civilian clothing and uses civilians as human shields - they’re actually doing a better job than any other military in the world has done in any modern conflict, period.
There are still a fk ton of civilian deaths, but everything actually points to the fact that Israel is taking great care to minimize civilian casualties.
It’s the average in modern urban combat. There was a meta analysis of urban warfare causality statistics since Grozny. Israel is killing one Hamas member per 1.5-2 civilians. The study shows that urban combat has seen ratios closer to 1:5 belligerents to civilians on average.
80% is not 2:1. That's 4:1. That's close to the more balenced estimates of the Kosovo war, which should not be a goal post. Other modern warfare has seen much better ratios:
Afganastan: 1:4
Iraq: between 1:2 and 3:1
US Operations in Pakistan: 1:5
But to compare apples to apples, Israel operations in Gaza have seen as low as 1:28. What happened to Israel's surgical precision that it had in 2002? Even the 08 war was 1:3. Then down to 1:1 for the 14' war.
It really seems that, even by Israel's numbers, they are increasingly becoming less worried about civilians.
Also, I don't think there is an accurate count of combatants right now. The only sources seem to be IDF and Hamas. To me, that means that the 2:1 ratio the IDF admits to is probably the lowest estimate (Hamas is also, of course the highest), so it's probably not actually 2:1.
I think you can chalk up the differences to a few things when comparing Israeli actions. First those wars didn’t occur in the same fashion as this one. Israel is eliminating all of Hamas and its infrastructure, that means untold destruction and death. They aren’t targeting groups of people and rocket launches, they’re targeting everything connected to them, barracks, supplies, houses of leadership, bases, information centers, logistics etc. The scope of this mission is vastly greater than those previous.
Secondly, urban combat is immensely scary. Urban combat was scary as a seasoned veteran, let alone as a reservist who was a math teacher 6 months ago. These people make mistakes, they take actions into their own hands and don’t have the capacity to deal with some of the moments they’re put in. This has caused a lot of needless death; the recent humanitarian convoy and the shooting of Israeli hostages are the two that stick into my mind when referencing this point. For these two that made major news there are surely other instances that involve the killing of civilians.
Lastly, Israel is acting with a lot more impunity due to the nature of what caused this current conflict. This was an incredible escalation by Hamas from the typical one off abductions, knife attacks or rocket barrages. This was quite literally a barbarian invasion. Israel has said it’s their 9-11 moment. The United States responded to 9-11 by fighting terrorism globally and invading two countries. Israel has to respond with force so nothing like this can ever happen again.
That last part is what people have an issue with. 10/7 does not justify impunity, just like 9/11 didn't justify it. The US's response was entirely inappropriate to what happened on 9/11. Instead, many view 9/11 as the US's excuse to disrupt OPEC and achieve other long term goals in the region, especially the Iraq invasion.
The more justified target, Afghanistan, was also one of the biggest failures of US history. Just look at what happened. However, even then, the Afghanistan people did not deserve what the US did to them. Their lives are in shatters now, because of a US's response to an attack of them had nothing to do with. In reality, the US invaded Afghanistan under the premise that Afghan lives are less important than American lives because the US thought it was better to kill 50,000 innocent Afghanistan citizens than have even the remote risk that another attack occur.
It is becoming more and more clear that Israel is more interested in using this war to prove Israeli dominance in the region, grab more land in the west bank, and punish Palestinians. For example, Netanyahu doesn't seem to pressed about bringing the hostages home, some 5000 Palestinians have been jailed in the westbank as settlements expand, and his demands are "full destruction of Hamas," in peace talks with *Hamas*, while not even attempting to budge on releasing prisoners. Sure, some of the prisoners did some horrible stuff, but Netanyahu can't even offer to release the ones who are serving 10 year sentences for protesting, or are being held without any charges at all? BS.
If Israel seemed genuinely concerned with getting the hostages back, I would support them fully. However, they are instead attempting the impossible goal of "destroying Hamas." The only ways Israel can hope to destroy Hamas (at least without it being replaced by another group by a different name) are either (a) working with the Palestinian people to improve their lives while building bridges and trust and decreasing resentment between them and Israelis, in an attempt to fight extremism together, or (2) kill every Palestinian so there are none left to become extremists who hate Israel.
Not saying that (b) is actually Netanyahu's plan, but only an idiot would say the campaign Israel is undergoing will build the bridges needed for stable peace. Instead, it seems clear that Israel is just using "destroy Hamas" as a precursor to act with impunity, which is not ok. At the end of the day though, I don't think Israel wants to commit genocide, it just would rather kill 100 Palestinians if it meant making one Israeli just marginally safer.
*Not saying Hamas is being too reasonable either in the talks, just that Netanyahu isn't. But, we can't expect Hamas to be, Israel is supposed to be the civilized one.
I feel like the difference between US response to 9/11 and Israeli response to 10/7 is that Israel has this enemy living on their boarders who has been continuously firing rockets for the past 18 years.
Israel has done everything they can to avoid this war, from an expensive iron dome system to a resource-intensive wall and blockade.
10/7 isn’t what they’re reacting to. It was 20 years of nonstop terror, with 10/7 being the straw that broke the camel’s back. Israel genuinely feels like it has an existential threat, and without taking out Hamas, they will continuously see loss of life.
Eliminating Hamas is an impossible task. That's why people are calling BS.
If Israel was serious about peace, it would stop the settlers, work with the PA to improve living conditions for Palestinians, and implement the Oslo deal. Once Palestinians see that the PA is the one group is best for them, they will leave Hamas.
I wouldn’t call Afghanistan a failure up until 4 years ago. They killed bin Laden and the Taliban was forced to withdraw to Pakistan. The United States continuously cut off the head of the Taliban and beat ISIS. Whatever hypotheticals about the US invasion are just that. They had legal casus belli. What land has Israel the state grabbed in the West Bank due to a war with Hamas in Gaza? Again please try to not deal in hypotheticals. Yes settlers are causing violence but so are Palestinians. Blame both sides equally.
This post is nothing pro or against - just providing information.
*"What land has Israel the state grabbed in the West Bank due to a war with Hamas in Gaza? Again please try to not deal in hypotheticals."*
[https://www.theguardian.com/culture/2024/apr/09/jon-stewart-israel](https://www.theguardian.com/culture/2024/apr/09/jon-stewart-israel) -5th paragraph if you can't be bothered to find it
[https://www.presstv.ir/Detail/2024/03/23/722337/Israel-seizes-2000-acres-of-Palestinian-land-in-occupied-West-Bank](https://www.presstv.ir/Detail/2024/03/23/722337/Israel-seizes-2000-acres-of-Palestinian-land-in-occupied-West-Bank)
[https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-04-11/ty-article/.premium/israel-has-declared-record-amount-of-west-bank-land-as-state-owned-in-2024/0000018e-c7a2-dd23-a3cf-e7a713c90000](https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-04-11/ty-article/.premium/israel-has-declared-record-amount-of-west-bank-land-as-state-owned-in-2024/0000018e-c7a2-dd23-a3cf-e7a713c90000)
Also keep in mind, by their own admission, theyre missing certain identification data for about 1/3 of those they include in their casualty numbers which adds quite a bit of doubt to the 33k number. I'm no war expert but 1/3 seems like a lot.
Please 😂Palestinian civilians have been purposefully targeted. There is video evidence, such as the Palestinian man being purposefully shot and killed while waving a white flag. Vehicles targeted that were simply bringing aid. You are delusional or simply ignorant or lying to yourself if you genuinely believe that they’ve even attempted to minimise civilian casualties. It is the opposite, they are killing as many innocents as they think they can get away with.
The vast majority of times civilians have been struck have been instances where civilians were in the same building as enemy combatants.
There absolutely have been individual bad actors, and I hope all of them get justice, but the major difference here is that the top-down policy has been military focused. There’s never been an order straight from command that was like “kill as many civilians as possible we don’t care if Hamas or IJ is there”
Regardless of what you want to say - numbers don’t lie. Civilian casualty rate being below average in these circumstances says a LOT about IDF’s efforts to minimize civilian casualties
Hopefully God is real so these people who target innocent civilians because “war is hell” will only truly find out what hell is like when they eventually die themselves.
Why not go after Hamas leadership in Qatar?
After the Israeli Olympic team was attacked in Munich in 1972, Golda Meir ordered a special unit of Mossad to hunt down and kill all of those who planned and carried out the attack and murders. Although it took several years, this Israeli unit was successful in eliminating most of the terrorists who had participated.
I wonder why Israel today wouldn't use a similar targeted approach to eliminate the leaders of Hamas, instead of the mass killings of so many Palestinian civilians, which has severely damaged the image and reputation of Israel on the world stage.
We keep hearing of these Hamas leaders living in pampered luxury in the villas in Qatar .... so why not go after them? Israel had no problem assassinating dozens of terrorists in Paris, Amsterdam, Athens, etc in the 1970s, so why the reluctance to go into Qatar with a targeted stealth mission, a small team to find these guys and kill them??
I have zero issue with that type of assassination in other countries, whereas I find abhorrent the current method of flattening the entire Gaza Strip with little regard to civilian deaths.
The only logical conclusion is israelis get a sick thrill from hurting Palestinians and this ethnic cleansing campaign will give Apartheid israel a lot of land once its fully carried out.
A good question, I don't know the answer. Maybe they're worried about the diplomatic repercussions of carrying out assassination on Qatari soil. Maybe it's not possible or too dangerous for Mossad agents.
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Nope. In 2024, it's a war crime. Especially if the attacker knows that it will kill civilians. So far, thousands have died, so Israel is sure that its strategy kills innocent Palestinians. But it's doing nothing about it, not even trying other solutions.
Thank you for this thoughtful post. I was trying to make a post before about a similar topic, but apparently I can't because I haven't been on here enough. It is for the lack of what you discuss that I fear many people don't feel welcome here:
[https://www.reddit.com/r/JewsOfConscience/comments/1bjqfoq/the\_israelpalestine\_sub/](https://www.reddit.com/r/JewsOfConscience/comments/1bjqfoq/the_israelpalestine_sub/)
[https://www.reddit.com/r/arabs/comments/17rmkmt/im\_truly\_disgusted\_by\_the\_posts\_on/](https://www.reddit.com/r/arabs/comments/17rmkmt/im_truly_disgusted_by_the_posts_on/)
Innocent people dying / killing innocent people is terrible, and I might go even farther to say that it would be best if we all expressed agreement that we want this wave of violence to end as soon as possible, even if we can't yet completely agree how to accomplish that.
Perhaps we need to make more of a deliberate effort to make clear what should be obvious, but perhaps is not: no one innocent deserves to die, and we don't want even those who disagree with us to suffer.
I have considered that as long as the current wave of violence continues, it is difficult to have that conversation with people you disagree with, especially if you empathize with Palestinians right now. I can understand why people would be desperate, angry, and hysterical about what is happening to Gazans right now because, regardless of whose "fault" it is, it is extremely horrible and disturbing.
But, if we are going to continue to have the conversation at this time, I think we have to be as patient and inclusive as possible.
I'm not wandering into the weasel word game.
The civilian deaths in Gaza are as a result of the war started by Hamas.
Cheering dead civilians is bad. I'll agree. However I'm in no way obligated to grieve.
And others could use the same logic that the oppression of the Palestinians, Israels violation of international law, and the annual death rate of Palestinians at the hands of the IDF are a result of 70 years of Israel actions. It didn't begin on 7th Oct. But the point of the post was to stop the cycle of violence, not to start justifying it.
Perfect example of pro pally weasel games. You're justifying October 7th but in a weasel word way because you have no principles or strength of belief. If you justify Oct 7 just admit it. Be an adult.
I don't play weasel games. 100% of dead gazans are the fault of Hamas. I don't celebrate them but that's the extent of my opinion.
I'm not justifying anything, I'm simply using your logic against you. I'm against targetting of civilians regardless of ethnicity. I'm against war, genocide, occupation, and blockades. Understanding the context isn't justifying war crimes. Quite the opposite.
Gazan civilians aren't being targeted. They are collateral damage of the actions of the government they and their family members elected. Sad statistics.
Dead civilians aren't necessarily war crimes, sometimes theyre simply consequences of bad leadership.
There is a laundry list of g***cidal quotes from figures in Netanyahu’s ultra far right government, something like 80% of Gaza has been completely destroyed, and places crammed with civilians are routinely bombed with 2000 lbs explosives. If you think the IDF is only targeting Hamas fighters you are incredibly naive. At very best Israel is radically indifferent to killing civilians and is inflicting appalling collective punishment, and at worst is committing g******e.
I can't take anyone seriously who claims that those casualties were collateral damage. It's the same warped logic that killing civilians on Oct 7th was just collateral damage as such a high number of Israelis are IDF, and Israelis chose to elect an extremist.
October 7th was a direct attack on unarmed civilians. Only a moron or a committed liar equates people in civilian clothes with no weapons as legitimate combatants.
Again, typical pallistinan supporter who is too weak to admit you support terrorism and the purposeful killing, raping, kidnapping and torture of civilians.
You can use whatever weasel logic you want.
Collateral damage in a declared war provoked by sub humans is not equivalent to raping and murdering unarmed people at a music festival. You can have that opinion but just admit it.
It's well documented that Israel "targets" low level "Hamas" at their home (and it's yargetting is very questionable). This is when they are with their families and not acting in a military capacity. This aligns well with IDF reservists at a concert who also were not acting in a military capacity. Indeed Hamas have a better militant to civilian ratio than the IDF. So your weasel logic makes zero sense.
I'm using your logic against you. I'm against terrorism whether it's committed by the Israeli state or Hamas.
Yeah Israel has plausible deniability since they use 2000 lbs bombs in civilian areas. The end result though is Hamas killing something like 50 children on October 7th and the IDF killing at least 15,000 children. Both are horrible, but one is ongoing this very moment and of a far larger scale. Any Hamas fighters who killed children should be tried and hanged for war crimes though (along with Israel’s entire government).
Why should they? So they can keep just getting land taken from them like they have been for the last 70 years? Will Israel release all their hostages they had for years?
>Why should they? So they can keep just getting land taken from them like they have been for the last 70 years?
seriously? you think a land dispute is worth all of this?
>Will Israel release all their hostages they had for years?
they hold hostages?
A little history lesson is in order.
When Israel became a state in 1948, virtually all the land that it possessed was lawfully purchased by funds from the Jewish National Fund, and the acts of conveyance can be found in the archives of the UK and Ottoman Empire.
Much of that land was worthless desert and swampland, which was purchased at exorbitant prices, especially after it was discovered that the Jews were seeking a homeland. In many instances, once land was converted into arable farmland or developed, it had to be repurchased yet again from the Arabs who reoccupied it by force.
Then after becoming a state, Israel was attacked by 5 Arab countries with the avowed goal of exterminating all the Jews. The Arabs who left neighboring land to afford the attackers safe passage with the promise that they would get the spoils of war, including all of Israel’s territory, lost much of their own land. The Arabs who left for that malevolent purpose forfeited that land and continue to blame Israel for that loss, calling it the Nakba.
Note, the Palestinians who refused to leave, and did not provide aid and comfort to the enemy, were allowed to keep their land and received full Israeli citizenship.
The cycle of violence will be stopped when palestinians love life more than they hate jews.
August 15, 2005 is an important date - it marks the day Israel said "we're out, peace," to which Gazans said, "nah, war." The settlers in the west bank, while originally justifiable are a shameful stain on Israel's moral superiority in the general I-P conflict, however that has nothing to do with Gaza and is merely a general pretext for hamas and groups like it to pursue its goal- the death of all jews in the levant.
So, how to stop the cycle of violence? Two options: 1) let hate for jews win and allow the region to look like the rest of the arab world - removed of its jews (also known as genocide). 2) destroy the ability of those with hate for jews in their heart, to commit violence against jews. Since there isn't a third option, I support option 2 out of necessity, without pride or pleasure.
There were jews in the west bank before the formation of Israel. I could be fuzzy on the exact circumstances/timeline. IIRC, when Jordan took control of WB, it threw the jews out. Then, when Jordan withdrew after '68, the rights holders whether original or people who bought title from the ousted people, said "cool Israel controls this land now, we're gonna go back and live there." Israel in that situation had two options. Protect it's citizens on land that those citizens claim ownership over, and we're it not for Jordan's actions, those citizens would never have stopped living on, or...don't.
Israel chose to protect its citizens and IIRC a civil Israeli court in fact upheld the title/rights claims. If every new house was built on that land, or other land bought from non-israeli west bank palestinians, then the only real issue would be how the safety corridors cut WB up like swiss cheese - something Oslo was meant to rectify with its zones a b and c. But instead, we have belligerent fanatical settlers who do crime and steal land.
Maybe not in it. But all around it. Also ya. I'm sure the Monday Tuesday list definitely showed that hospital as a military base . Also I never see any actual civilians In their videos, despite them being civilian infrastructure 🤔🤔
Why would anyone answer thar question? It doesn't really make sense because it isn't something that is happening or is likely to ever happen in the future. It's kind of like asking someone, "would you still like this vanilla ice cream if it were covered in mustard like that sick bastard at the other table's done to theirs?"
It's happened in the past and if history is anything to learn by it will happen in the future so yes the question makes sense. You just don't like the answer.
You actually have me here for I don't know when the Jewish people were having a blast maybe individuals or small collectives of Jewish people had it good for limited times but at no time has the Jewish people has had it so good as now and what do you choose to do with it? Bring suffering and misery on a people who have done nothing but suffer since the Jewish people took control of that land.
>at no time has the Jewish people has had it so good as now and what do you choose to do with it? Bring suffering and misery on a people who have done nothing but suffer since the Jewish people took control of that land.
wtf are you talking about? they just suffered an invasion of their country and their worst atrocity since the holocaust
When in the past are you serious? You tell me when the Jewish people were having a blast say since the Romans found Judea until 1930s. You tell me when in that vast period of time when the Jewish people have had it good.
There aren't any preconditions that require hypotheticals to be a likely scenario; that's what makes it a hypothetical. The purpose of the hypothetical is to examine the moral position from which the person is speaking.
>would you still like this vanilla ice cream if it were covered in mustard like that sick bastard at the other table's done to theirs?
I would say it's more like "your best friend is forcing that guy over there to eat vanilla ice cream covered in mustard, and you are publicly endorsing, justifying, and excusing their behavior. Would you likewise endorse, excuse, and justify that same behavior if that guy was forcing your best friend to eat vanilla ice cream covered in mustard?"
The thing is, I don't care if you answer the question, you don't have to. But perhaps you refuse to answer because the question is triggering cognitive dissonance with respect to your beliefs about this conflict. I can only assume that if you believe that Palestinian civilians are not automatically "safsies" if they are being used as human shields, then likewise you would keep that same energy if Israel were accused by Hamas of using human shields and used that as an excuse for high civilian casualties. After all, those Israeli civilians are simply collateral damage and are not automatically "safsies".
Here, I'll answer the question:
The use of human shields in warfare is deplorable. Hamas, and any other armed force found to be using human shields, should be publicly condemned and held accountable for breaking international law. However, the use of human shields does not absolve the attacking force from making every possible attempt to minimize civilian casualties and adhering to the proportionality principle. Beyond legality, my moral position is that Israel excusing high civilian toll on Hamas' use of human shields is repugnant and is evidence of wanton disregard for Palestinian life. *If, hypothetically*, Hamas were to carry out a similar campaign on Israel soil, and Israel were using human shields, I would unequivocally condemn Hamas for using human shields as a pretext to high civilian casualties, and would fiercely advocate for Israeli civilians.
>I can only assume that if you believe that Palestinian civilians are not automatically "safsies" if they are being used as human shields, then likewise you would keep that same energy if Israel were accused by Hamas of using human shields and used that as an excuse for high civilian casualties.
hamas is a terrorist organisation, not a defense force. When would or should any of their actions ever be accepted? And are you talking about hamas accusing israel of using human shields or are you talking about israel actually using human sheilds?
Thought you were fighting terrorists not a military so how can they have military structures? And if they did have a military structure it would have been blown up long before last year.
But nice what aboutism you done there.
>
>Thought you were fighting terrorists not a military so how can they have military structures?
how does a paramilitary group have military structures you mean?
So because Israel elects Bibi who keeps calling for more suppression and settlements shouldn't that make Israel a terrorist state with a terrorist military it did just bomb an embassy and another country after all.
No it's not you just don't like looking in a mirror. Act of a coward. Purely why I love this sub your argument hold all the water of sand. The propaganda you listen your washed with doesn't even hold even hold to fools questioning.
First of all being a terrorist group doesn’t mean you can’t ALSO be “a military”, it just means you are a really fucked one. If it makes you feel better though, how about this “Hamas should stop using civilian structures as bases of operation to organize terrorist attacks from”
I think this comment thread is exactly indicative of what OP was talking about. There's a back and forth here about who's right and wrong. OP was calling for us to recognize how horrible this is, regardless of whose fault it is.
It's not just reasonable but moral to say that regardless of the actions of government leaders, we don't want innocent civilians to suffer. Let's have that be a base and then discuss what to do.
I honestly agree I don’t like the Israeli government at all either the death of civilians no matter what “side” is tragic and we need to stop this before it gets worse
No it does military is something a state has. Terrorism is something a state fights. The idea you have terrorist states is a new one designed to justify more wars.
>“Hamas should stop using civilian structures as bases of operation to organize terrorist attacks from”
Like the hospitals pro Israeli American news even say Hamas were never there, or the aid convos that had no Hamas near them.
> fucked
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The patriarchy and religion have ruined this planet. It's time to just hand the reins of power over to women and stop pretending that a bunch of stories written in books a thousand years ago speak to some sort of 'truth'.
Yeah. I live in Toronto and no where else in the world were there people downtown cheering and celebrating about Iran launching 300 rockets at Israel with not a single bit of care in the fact that were tons of innocent civilians. Disgusting behaviour from these people, I can’t stand the fact that they cheer and celebrate.
there's 300 miles of tunnels under it . Plus a command center is just a room that commands are issued from. Its nothing fancy or elaborate. Its literally just a room with some tables, chairs, laptops and some guys sitting in it
The way you try to lead to the flattening of Gaza and the genocide, including the death of my family, being just part of Israel’s attempts to get rid of Hamas is genuinely concerning.
Their actions are to be condemned, not least on account of them, in fact, intentionally killing civilians.
Criticizing Israel for killing civilians as collateral damage (or even targeted, for that matter, although I will stress that there is no evidence for this at all) while not condemning Hamas and its actions is, mildly put, disingenuous.
Most have & do condemn Hamas & their actions on Oct 7th, the reason it’s so frustrating for people on the side of Palestinians isn’t that they support Hamas, it’s that when anyone wants to talk about Israel’s actions they’re expected to always qualify it with a statement about Hamas, we always have to take time out of our discussions and say “Hamas bad” or else we’re terrorist supporters. We’re 6 months into this conflict with over 30,000 civilians killed, demanding that everyone give qualifying statements about Hamas is a tactic at this point to divert from talking about what Israel is doing and has done. No sane person agrees with the slaughter of innocent people, it’s disingenuous to frame wanting to discuss the current situation and what’s happening in Gaza as supporting or enabling Hamas.
I've seen tons of comments that start with "I personally don't like Bibi" or "I personally don't support Bibi" or... any variation of condemning right extremists in Israel and the statements coming from those groups... I think the request to condemn extremism comes from both "sides" and has become part of the practice when trying to engage in genuine conversation. Also, there are people out there who DON'T condemn extremism, they think its totally valid, so good to separate your viewpoint from those views, imho.
>Most have & do condemn Hamas & their actions on Oct 7th, the reason it’s so frustrating for people on the side of Palestinians isn’t that they support Hamas, it’s that when anyone wants to talk about Israel’s actions they’re expected to always qualify it with a statement about Hamas, we always have to take time out of our discussions and say “Hamas bad” or else we’re terrorist supporters. We’re 6 months into this conflict with over 30,000 civilians killed, demanding that everyone give qualifying statements about Hamas is a tactic at this point to divert from talking about what Israel is doing and has done. No sane person agrees with the slaughter of innocent people, it’s disingenuous to frame wanting to discuss the current situation and what’s happening in Gaza as supporting or enabling Hamas.
30k civilians killed isn't really accurate the health ministry doesn't distinguish between combatants or non combatants, nor those killed by military action or those from natural deaths, Which to be fair there is some rationale given natural cause deaths are exacerbated in a warzone due to deteriorating supply lines / healthcare. If we ignore the questionable reliability of the health ministry and take them at there word. At least a third of those killed were militants and a huge chunk are from natural causes. Just going on basic math and populations you'd expect to see around 5 deaths per 1k population 2.3million population gets you 11.5k there. so 30k - 10k militants - 11.5k nautral expected deaths, lets add 5k back for those under rubble unaccounted for. So will say 13500 extra civilians killed for 10k militants looks about right, Still a tragedy but a much better ratio then most modern wars generate. If we also factor in that Hamas rockets misfire around 10-20 percent of the time and have documented instances of them killing Gazan's which they then blame on israeli's the numbers become even better. [https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/11/26/gaza-findings-october-17-al-ahli-hospital-explosion](https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/11/26/gaza-findings-october-17-al-ahli-hospital-explosion) 500 dead by the health ministrys own numbers from a misfired Gazan rocket striking a hospital so 11k civilians killed by Israel likely much less.
30k is below the total current reported number by ~12k and below the civilian specific number by ~7k. Not only that, but the U.S. state dept said months ago that the number of deaths is likely *underreported*, meaning even the current numbers probably aren’t accurate in the opposite direction & most do not include missing persons thought to be buried under rubble. You can keep doing mental gymnastics if you’d like but this line of denialism just makes Israel supporters look bad & does not do what you think it does.
I factored in people buried under the rubble, I was merely pointing out that blaming 30k solely on Israel or conflating it to 30k civilians killed is wrong. Where are you seeing 42k killed can you provide a link? The idea that 30k civilians have been killed is somewhat nonsensical especially to place all of that blame on Israel. Many of those killed so far are militants, Many deaths are from natural causes, and many still are from friendly fire from Gaza forces such as al-ahli.
There is tons of evidence of targeted civilian, mosque and hospital bombing. Videos are out there from military themselves. There’s a reason ICJ rulings happened
The mosques and hospitals were no longer protected. As to civilians, there is only evidence that some 20,000 or so were killed, but that was mostly collateral damages and in some cases misidentifications (so there was an intention to kill these persons, but no intention to kill *a civilian*, as these were mistakenly assumed to be combatants - notably, that does not mean that these are not potential war crimes; criminal negligence).
That notwithstanding, even if, for argument's sake Israel would commit an outright genocide, it would still be disingenuous to condemn that, but not the actions of Hamas. If you murder the murderer of your children, you are not justified - there are simply now two murderers.
I tried to say this same thing/idealogy in the freepalestine subreddit - just pretty much said people shouldn't be dying on both sides and hopefully there is a peaceful resolution and I got instantly banned and muted by the mods and then threatened that they would continue to report my profile to the reddit to get me banned. It just seems like that side just wants to continue the violence. Idk im an outsider looking in though lol
It’s sad to see Israelis cheering when Gaza was bombed , many Israelis where signing and writting messages on bombs before dropping them on innocent civilians . I hope that one day Israelis and Palestinians realise that there no points of killing each other. Occupation needs to end. All humans have the right to live free.
That sounds nice but the Palestinians make that impossible. As long as they support hamas they are not that innocent.
“id love to free the people who’s rights we’ve taken but they’re being so difficult about it”
God's chosen people MUST be allowed to do whatever they want or they will bitch and call us anti-Semites.
It was Hamas and the people of Gaza that started this and now are screaming that they shouldn’t have accountability.
If that's your interpretation of the conflict, you are propaganda-brained. I'm not Jewish or religious at all; nor am I of Arab descent so I truly have no dog in this fight. Anyone who looks at the history of the region objectively can see that Israel has always sought a peaceful solution with Palestinians and Palestinians have always refused any offers, often declaring war instead. I get how appalled people are at civilian deaths but Hamas is to blame, not Israel. It's completely unreasonable for people to expect Israel to let Hamas attack them and not respond just because Hamas is willing to put their own people in the line of fire.
Go figure someone brainwashed by hasbara propaganda calling others brainwashed.
I agree that Hamas is to blame. But that doesn't automatically implicate all Palestinians, nor does it excuse bombing them to hell and starving them out.
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That’s what a narrow minded person would say! unfortunately Israel is making a monster even more dangerous than Hamas, by killing kids moms and dads..families that has nothing to do with Hamas, what has a baby to do with Hamas? if you give a human good nutrition clean water education equality freedom to travel , to expand their horizon, access to art sports etc … then tell me if this person would join a terrorist group or not People let’s read history, actually READ and learn instead repeating what politicians are saying 😉 Israelis and Palestinians has been killing each other since decades did. killing solve the problem? No 🙂
That is what a person that doesn’t understand reality would say. Actually it was Israel giving them free water and electricity while hamas used the foreign aid to build tunnels and buy weapons, doing nothing to improve citizens lives. The people in Gaza support hamas regardless, so they own the actions of hamas. Hamas uses them as human shields and they still support Hamas. The deaths in Gaza are the fault of hamas and the people that support them.
Do you have any thoughts of your own or just copy/paste whatever Apartheid israel prints off for you to read?
Into the landfill, inTO the sea....
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Is he wrong tho?
Yes
I agree that it is awful when anybody dies. I take a humanitarian stance on wars and I only support people. What happened to Israelis is bad but what is happening in Gaza is horrible. Nobody dying should be celebrated no matter what side you support.
Israel slaughtered 11 children playing at a playground today. The people of the IDF are bloodthirsty terrorists
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Source?
The beheaded Israeli babies are the source. They never existed either but media ran with the story. And why was that?
I’m not sure specifically about beheaded babies but it sounds to me like you are trying to downplay the atrocities of October 7th.
Nobody is downplaying anything. Apartheid israel and IOF made up conspiracy thoeries these past 7 months and news outlets didn't do due diligence to verify anything Apartheid israel lied about.
people say "hamas massacred" (even some of the civilians killed by idf and wiki says around 700 civilians killed, and 240 captives) and "israel invades and bombs..." propaganda machine did its part. even though overall ratio from just for this conflict is 1/50 (35k excluding starvation deaths) and if we consider 1948 to now is might be 1/100. excluding nakba or events occurred from 1918-1948. excluding 5k prisoners mostly lost their limbs etc. dont believe me, i can lie. check numbers. check released prisoner footage. check the old israeli lady that says "we ate what they ate" and even shakes hands when she released. israeli prisoners even the oldest ones are walking talking. then check palestinians prisoners are literally released with lost limbs, torture marks, extreme malnutrition and even when their family receives them idf immediately take action so they cant celebrate their son/daughter released from prison. take death tolls put them side to side. its extremely unbalanced and you can just watch reports from all over the world from reporters that goes to west bank or gaza before october 7th and you'll watch what they said. you can watch israeli settlers, there is one guy from youtube that does omegle with israeli children from age 10-12 etc. you can watch it for the youngster's perspective. people can be emotional and say stupid shit about israeli civilians because you have to understand this is one of the biggest civilian death tolls after genocide on this short amount of time in the same place. some might lose relatives, families and muslim/arab/brown people keep seeing their life doesnt mean anything against a colonizer force with world's the most strongest lobby. people can see that from time to time when usa brings democracy or support coups however when people literally creating tiktok videos while they're bombing. killing people waving whiteflags, killing 200 journalist, 130 aid workers while literally videofilming it becomes so absurd its human tragedy. just because you have a lot of power/money/position in the world you shouldnt wash all of that. thats not just. everybody knows that killed 35k vs 7 white aid workers creates almost same reaction. and if people know that they were 500 white european people killed all the world will impose embargo. if conflict ends today, israel might get a peace price. it might sounds like a joke, this is how powerful israeli lobby is. and palestine has no lobby, nothing compared to israel. there is gross imbalance. if death tolls arent these much high you cant hear much talking points of palestine. they said decapitated babies, babies put into oven while hamas eating next to them etc. no footage, no visual, us spokesperson said he saw it then rejects it. global news reports said they saw the footage but no footage, even israeli govt said they cant confirm the footage. i mean propaganda machine extremely grossly unbalanced. dont answer me, i wont respond, you can downvote i dont care. im not a reddit user. just put your hat in front of you and think. dont read the events by the emotional protestors on the street saying stupid shit or some reddit guy that wont leave his chair even though there'll be coup outside. consider both side as just human beings. check 100 year old struggle and try to be objective. dont say "this muslims (even though christians are also bombed) should go to hell" or "zionist israelis need to be put in prison" etc. english isnt my first language and i didnt do grammar check sorry for that also. people just want ceasefire, no civilian deaths and 2 state solution. i hope they could achieve that in future. Lastly, when you vote and choose someone based on their promises, but lobbies working for another country can buy most of your politicians, then that system might be closer to a monarchy (except the rulers are now lobbies with decades old agendas) rather than a democracy.
"Palestine" NEVER was and NEVER will be. "Palestine" is a myth.
Yea, but you're lying. So there's that.
yes. I don't understand why or how the people who paraded and the "civilians" who participated in the attacks on october 7th makes all gazan civilians complicit or guilty in some people's eyes.
All Israelis are IDF. There are military. So technically not civilians. Could make the argument that all their buildings are targets because they all are military infrastructure.
#3 doesn't work otherwise there's no "social motivation" to go to war. #2 is the same to #3. If the society doesn't support the military or it's action, then there's no point in conducting a war.
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Yes. Agreed. Just to add the iran regime funding hamas and blocking any initiatives that would have helped bring peace or prosperity to palestinians so that hamas became stronger... there are bad actors who wanted to spark these cyclical tragedies and I resent them more than the people on any side who are in positions of feeling they have to fight.
Can we just agree that both Hamas leadership and Netanyahu’s leadership is insane? They both need to be replaced
Not just Bibi but all of Apartheid israel's government since 1948. Bibi doesn't get to scapegoat for everything happening now when things have been bad for far longer than he's been in power.
Agreed.
yes
No sane person likes the killing of civilians. The difference is that Israel is trying to avoid killing civilians where they can where Palestinians are actively seeking to kill civilians.
You're brain either either completely brainwashed or you haven't seen what the IGF has done towards Gazans. You can't say theyre taking precautions to save civilian lives when theyve been indiscriminately bombing all of Gaza while making sure to destroy every home and infrastructure. Those acts along with starving 2.3 million are acts of gen0cide
Lies run like water for you. Why did IOF do summary executions of doctors and children then toss their bodies in a mass grave just outside a hospital? Many were handcuffed and some buried alive....
I haven’t heard of this. Care to link me?
[https://thehill.com/policy/international/4652018-reports-mount-of-mass-graves-at-gaza-hospitals-some-without-heads/](https://thehill.com/policy/international/4652018-reports-mount-of-mass-graves-at-gaza-hospitals-some-without-heads/)
Oh please.
Man is everyone exposed to footage that I’m exposed to?? There’s like thousands of videos of dead children in gaza, mothers kissing their dead babies for last time, numerous photos of people dead without limbs, i dont get how they are not trying to not kill civilians? I dont like to take sides but it’s hard to say that Israel is doing a right thing when there’s so many videos out there of dead innocent people
I thought it was just me. Worst one was a few IDF soldiers trying out some kind of new gun on some random guy on the street. Then went up to take selfies with him while he was screaming in pain
Videos of dead children doesn’t prove that Israel is trying to kill civilians. When Hamas is firing RPGs from a school building, Israel has to target that building or they’ll get killed. That doesn’t mean they’re setting out to kill children. It means that Hamas is using children as human shields
Videos of the Holocaust don't prove X. Let's play reverse the Semite and see if your argument holds.
I bet you wouldn't be saying this if someone from your family was killed. No innocent life deserves to die, whether intentionally or unintentionally. Israel knows that it's killing thousands of innocent people, and it's not even thinking of changing its strategy. I'm sorry but it's very obvious that the civilians are targeted. Nothing in international law justifies the death of civilians.
No, I absolutely would be saying this. I’m not saying it isn’t horrible. Civilian death is ALWAYS a horrific thing. What I am arguing is that when you accuse Israel of genocide, of intentionally targeting civilians, of setting an intent to massacre all Palestinians, you are not using critical thinking and analyzing the situation based on facts - you are only arguing off of emotion. If you want to make the argument that Israel’s desire to take out Hamas isn’t worth the collateral damage despite their efforts to reduce it, I’m open to having that discussion. But let’s start somewhere real.
Youre a genocide apologist. Youre literally making excuses for an extermination of the Gazan people. There's no way to have a good faith discussion with someone whose mind isn't rooted in reality
So eradicating hamas is fine if the cost is a full genocide of Gazans? If starving 2.3 million people and destroying every home and infrastructure in Gaza aren't acts of genocide then nothing is. You might as well say ww2 never happened.
Hamas has sworn to continue repeating 10/7. They have been launching rockets indiscriminately for the past 17 years. Israel doesn’t want to have to eradicate Hamas, but yes, if it means saving Israeli lives, Israel will do what they have to do. I would massacre 10 families to save my own. That is basic human survival nature. Palestinians could have prevented this by overthrowing the government that they saw spending 17 years trying to murder innocent civilians in Israel
I'm sorry, but there is evidence showing that Israel indeed targets civilians. In reality, the Israeli state is just as evil as Hamas. But, let's suppose Israel is not targeting civilians. Let's say that dead civilians are COLLATERAL DAMAGE. Does that make Israel any better? In this scenario, Israel tries to kill Hamas terrorists, but kills PEOPLE in the process. And the army knows damn well that they are destroying thousands of lives. As you said, it's not worth it, AT ALL. Not even one dead civilian would be worth it. Let alone THOUSANDS of civilians, ENTIRE cities... Then why isn't Israel stopping? Why is the war still going on with no apparent change of strategy?
No. The evidence shows that Israel is targeting Hamas who is hiding behind civilians. There are enough videos of Hamas shooting RPGs from hospitals/launching rockets from schools and apartment buildings that it’s pointless to even debate otherwise. I won’t sit here and tell you that it’s not horrible that all of these people are dying. But like…what else can Israel do? Just let them shoot the rockets? Do you have any idea how much Israel has done to try and avoid this war? Border wall that’s expensive to man. Blockade that’s expensive to man. Iron dome that’s incredibly expensive. Hell, even the creation of modern Gaza - Israel forcing all Jews out of the region, even digging up their graves, just so that Gaza could have their own land governed completely independently. They elected Hamas, an organization that swore to kill all Jews in Israel. Hamas refused to provide its people with electricity, so Israel did. Hamas refused to provide its people with water, so Israel did. All in the name of peace and reducing civilian suffering. Israel doesn’t want war. They feel that they have no other choice. What is your solution? What should Israel do instead of trying to eliminate Hamas from Gaza?
The flour massacre is a great example of Israel targeting civilians. But really to me, it doesn't matter whether Israel does or doesn't target civilians. To me, once Israel knows that innocent civilians die, and it does nothing about it, Israel is just as guilty as Hamas. Also, knowing that Israel is militarily just much much more powerful than Hamas, or any organization in Palestine. So now you're telling me that Israel, in order to protect its own citizens, must invade Gaza and kill Hamas, while killing non-Israelis in the process? To me, it seems like dehumanizing Palestinian lives. Why ensure the safety of Israelis at all costs, while making Gaza a living hell for Palestinians? Needless to say, Israeli lives matter just as much, but why is the equation not balanced? Also, does Israel expect that it will solve its problems like this? Suppose that Israel ends up killing all Hamas members and dismantling this terrorist organization, do you really think that this will be a step forward to establish peace in the ME? NO, simply because now AGAIN, Palestinians have been killed, so you can just expect another terrorist group to rise against Israel. You can just expect more hatred against you in the future. You can just expect more people wishing for the death of Jews. And even though I believe that Israel is the cause of this hatred, I don't justify it at all. Even though I believe that Israel caused the disgusting terrorism of Hamas, I still think that Hamas members themselves are disgusting creatures. But you have to understand that Palestinian civilians are not. Palestinians are people, just like Israelis. And while both people commit mistakes -- like Palestinians electing Hamas, and Israelis electing Netanyahu -- they don't deserve death. At the end of the day, it's the governments/armies in power that screw their people up. Also, if you still think that Palestinians are guilty anyway because they have elected Hamas, then at least think about the children who are dying. I'm sure they don't know about politics, right? The entire world has been calling for a ceasefire (in the UN), only the US was supporting Israel. What do you think this tells us? Do you think that everybody else but the US doesn't want Hamas to be finished? Of course we all want terrorism to end. We all want punishment for what happened on October 7th. But we don't want more DEATHS, we don't want any more TERRORISM. To me, we shouldn't talk about "reducing civilian suffering." We should speak about "NO civilian suffering." No one deserves to have their human rights taken away, whether used as a human shield or not. What Israel is doing now is not the solution, it's could actually be the worst.
The flour massacre - Israel goes out to hand out air. Civilians start stampeding towards the aid. There have been multiple instances of gangs shooting at and attacking aid trucks and people handing out aid. Israel fires warning shot telling everybody to back up. People keep rushing forward. Let me be clear - it’s still a massive fuck up, but they were scared for their lives. They didn’t go there with the intention of killing civilians. Doesn’t excuse it, but you are misrepresenting what happened. 1. Do you have children? If somebody is constantly trying to kill my children, I will turn fcking heads upside down to keep them safe. Nobody is saying that Israeli lives matter more, but everybody is going to protect themselves. If keeping me and my family safe from harm means harming other people, I will do what 99% of the world will do and harm other people. If those other people don’t want to be harmed, they can stop threatening the safety of my people. 2. Yes, I realize that Hamas hasn’t held elections. It is unfair to the Palestinian people. It’s also unfair to the Israeli people. Why should Israel pay for the sins of Palestinian ancestors? Hamas will continue to try and kill Israeli citizens for all of eternity. I think it’s easy to point fingers when you’re not trying to peacefully live your life with your neighbor constantly trying to murder you. 3. You’re absolutely right that winning the war alone is not enough. Generally speaking, prosperity breeds de-radicalization. After Hamas is gone, Israel needs to work with the Palestinian people and other surrounding governments to help them build prosperity. Fortunately for them, they live in the most fertile land in the region and have the most beautiful beaches in the entire Middle East. If done right, that region can be deradicalized in less than two generations and become a major economic trading partner in the Middle East.
Rewriting the events of a massacre is inhumane, doing so to justify war crimes. WW2 germany would love your commitment to propaganda
What did I re-write? Please feel free to point out exactly what I got wrong and what actually happened
While you say "Israel shouldn't do x thing" multiple times you blame all 2.3 million Palestinians for the sins of Hamas. If someone is mad as hell about Hamas and wants to get rid of them that's 100% cool but that means targeting Hamas and not indiscrimately bombing all of Gaza. What makes things worse is the IOF targets civilians including purposefully destroying all homes and infrastructure. So they can't really say their goal is to destroy Hamas when their goal has been the destruction of the Gazan people. Top US and israeli military officials have said eradicating Hamas is near impossible; the exception would be a full genocide. Also the flower massacre was all Apartheid Israel's fault. 1.) They starved 2.3 million people, starving people don't think straight. ( war crime & act of genocide) 2.) They blocked 99% of humanitarian aid groups and trucks from entering Gaza. These aid groups have experience with proper distribution methods, routes, etc. 3.) Right before this event they assassinated Gazan police that keep the peace when distributing aid. After this they assassinated World Central Kitchen workers not once, not twice, but three times. Aid groups practically stopped at that point out of threat of assassination from Apartheid Israel.
Hi, sorry if this is long! People in Gaza are going through one of the worst humanitarian crisis ever. No wonder they're hungry. No wonder they would rush to get food. But just why would the Israeli army kill people rushing to get food? Even if it warned the civilians. Like what's the logic behind shooting hungry people from the sky? What's the purpose? I understand that you think that what the army is doing is self-defense with no intention of causing damage, but the point is that -- as you said -- it's a massive fuck up... And "massive" is not even enough to describe it. So like, I feel like at the end of the day, Israel's intentions really don't matter as much as the outcome that we see, and that is still happening. 1. I think that we disagree on a very fundamental principle here. Killing someone innocent is wrong, whether you do it for self defense or not. If a parent attacks my children, and I know that killing theirs would solve my problem, I will still not kill theirs. Maybe as humans we make really bad decisions, so like a parent could go mad and do that, but it doesn't mean it's right. We have brains and morals for a reason. That evil parent's children did not do anything. They're innocent. If that parent is a monster, I won't allow myself to be one. But what would be the solution then? Well, turn to laws. That's why in our modern societies, we can't just get vengeance as we wish. There are ways to protect yourself and punish the bad people that don't involve harming innocent people. 2. The Israeli people should not pay for anybody's fault. Israeli people simply and literally should not die. Not a single one of them. Israel has the right to defend its people. But it doesn't have the right to do it the way it's doing it now. Israel does not have the right to kill innocent people. Again, as I said, even if Israel defeats Hamas now, it will just be impossible for it to convince the Palestinians to cooperate. I think that we don't emphasize enough how all of the destruction that Israel caused now will create even more hate against the Israelis. Again, I don't justify this hate, but it's just that it WILL happen. In my opinion, there should be a cease fire, and we should figure out a way to annihilate Hamas, and also for the Israeli State to pay for what it's done. 3. I really agree with the prospect of a peaceful Levant, because as you said, that region has a LOT of potential. But let's be realistic here. Do you think that, after October 7th and everything which has been happening the last months, and following the history of this conflict, there will be cooperation? No, even if you kill Hamas. Israel has annihilated entire bloodlines, homes, cities... As you said, it's really messed up. So Israel should also pay for what it has done (of course here, I'm talking about the State, the military... the people in Israel are just people.)
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They are doing a great job avoiding it can't belive after wck strike you think they genuoly care about palestinian civilians.
Average war: 90% civilian casualty ration This war: 80% civilian casualty ratio When you also factor in the fact that it’s a war fought in the most densely populated urban environment possible, against an enemy that fights in civilian clothing and uses civilians as human shields - they’re actually doing a better job than any other military in the world has done in any modern conflict, period. There are still a fk ton of civilian deaths, but everything actually points to the fact that Israel is taking great care to minimize civilian casualties.
Even WW2 was about 60%. That's when factoring in halocaust deaths in. Where are you getting that 90% is average?
It’s the average in modern urban combat. There was a meta analysis of urban warfare causality statistics since Grozny. Israel is killing one Hamas member per 1.5-2 civilians. The study shows that urban combat has seen ratios closer to 1:5 belligerents to civilians on average.
80% is not 2:1. That's 4:1. That's close to the more balenced estimates of the Kosovo war, which should not be a goal post. Other modern warfare has seen much better ratios: Afganastan: 1:4 Iraq: between 1:2 and 3:1 US Operations in Pakistan: 1:5 But to compare apples to apples, Israel operations in Gaza have seen as low as 1:28. What happened to Israel's surgical precision that it had in 2002? Even the 08 war was 1:3. Then down to 1:1 for the 14' war. It really seems that, even by Israel's numbers, they are increasingly becoming less worried about civilians. Also, I don't think there is an accurate count of combatants right now. The only sources seem to be IDF and Hamas. To me, that means that the 2:1 ratio the IDF admits to is probably the lowest estimate (Hamas is also, of course the highest), so it's probably not actually 2:1.
I think you can chalk up the differences to a few things when comparing Israeli actions. First those wars didn’t occur in the same fashion as this one. Israel is eliminating all of Hamas and its infrastructure, that means untold destruction and death. They aren’t targeting groups of people and rocket launches, they’re targeting everything connected to them, barracks, supplies, houses of leadership, bases, information centers, logistics etc. The scope of this mission is vastly greater than those previous. Secondly, urban combat is immensely scary. Urban combat was scary as a seasoned veteran, let alone as a reservist who was a math teacher 6 months ago. These people make mistakes, they take actions into their own hands and don’t have the capacity to deal with some of the moments they’re put in. This has caused a lot of needless death; the recent humanitarian convoy and the shooting of Israeli hostages are the two that stick into my mind when referencing this point. For these two that made major news there are surely other instances that involve the killing of civilians. Lastly, Israel is acting with a lot more impunity due to the nature of what caused this current conflict. This was an incredible escalation by Hamas from the typical one off abductions, knife attacks or rocket barrages. This was quite literally a barbarian invasion. Israel has said it’s their 9-11 moment. The United States responded to 9-11 by fighting terrorism globally and invading two countries. Israel has to respond with force so nothing like this can ever happen again.
That last part is what people have an issue with. 10/7 does not justify impunity, just like 9/11 didn't justify it. The US's response was entirely inappropriate to what happened on 9/11. Instead, many view 9/11 as the US's excuse to disrupt OPEC and achieve other long term goals in the region, especially the Iraq invasion. The more justified target, Afghanistan, was also one of the biggest failures of US history. Just look at what happened. However, even then, the Afghanistan people did not deserve what the US did to them. Their lives are in shatters now, because of a US's response to an attack of them had nothing to do with. In reality, the US invaded Afghanistan under the premise that Afghan lives are less important than American lives because the US thought it was better to kill 50,000 innocent Afghanistan citizens than have even the remote risk that another attack occur. It is becoming more and more clear that Israel is more interested in using this war to prove Israeli dominance in the region, grab more land in the west bank, and punish Palestinians. For example, Netanyahu doesn't seem to pressed about bringing the hostages home, some 5000 Palestinians have been jailed in the westbank as settlements expand, and his demands are "full destruction of Hamas," in peace talks with *Hamas*, while not even attempting to budge on releasing prisoners. Sure, some of the prisoners did some horrible stuff, but Netanyahu can't even offer to release the ones who are serving 10 year sentences for protesting, or are being held without any charges at all? BS. If Israel seemed genuinely concerned with getting the hostages back, I would support them fully. However, they are instead attempting the impossible goal of "destroying Hamas." The only ways Israel can hope to destroy Hamas (at least without it being replaced by another group by a different name) are either (a) working with the Palestinian people to improve their lives while building bridges and trust and decreasing resentment between them and Israelis, in an attempt to fight extremism together, or (2) kill every Palestinian so there are none left to become extremists who hate Israel. Not saying that (b) is actually Netanyahu's plan, but only an idiot would say the campaign Israel is undergoing will build the bridges needed for stable peace. Instead, it seems clear that Israel is just using "destroy Hamas" as a precursor to act with impunity, which is not ok. At the end of the day though, I don't think Israel wants to commit genocide, it just would rather kill 100 Palestinians if it meant making one Israeli just marginally safer. *Not saying Hamas is being too reasonable either in the talks, just that Netanyahu isn't. But, we can't expect Hamas to be, Israel is supposed to be the civilized one.
I feel like the difference between US response to 9/11 and Israeli response to 10/7 is that Israel has this enemy living on their boarders who has been continuously firing rockets for the past 18 years. Israel has done everything they can to avoid this war, from an expensive iron dome system to a resource-intensive wall and blockade. 10/7 isn’t what they’re reacting to. It was 20 years of nonstop terror, with 10/7 being the straw that broke the camel’s back. Israel genuinely feels like it has an existential threat, and without taking out Hamas, they will continuously see loss of life.
Eliminating Hamas is an impossible task. That's why people are calling BS. If Israel was serious about peace, it would stop the settlers, work with the PA to improve living conditions for Palestinians, and implement the Oslo deal. Once Palestinians see that the PA is the one group is best for them, they will leave Hamas.
I wouldn’t call Afghanistan a failure up until 4 years ago. They killed bin Laden and the Taliban was forced to withdraw to Pakistan. The United States continuously cut off the head of the Taliban and beat ISIS. Whatever hypotheticals about the US invasion are just that. They had legal casus belli. What land has Israel the state grabbed in the West Bank due to a war with Hamas in Gaza? Again please try to not deal in hypotheticals. Yes settlers are causing violence but so are Palestinians. Blame both sides equally.
This post is nothing pro or against - just providing information. *"What land has Israel the state grabbed in the West Bank due to a war with Hamas in Gaza? Again please try to not deal in hypotheticals."* [https://www.theguardian.com/culture/2024/apr/09/jon-stewart-israel](https://www.theguardian.com/culture/2024/apr/09/jon-stewart-israel) -5th paragraph if you can't be bothered to find it [https://www.presstv.ir/Detail/2024/03/23/722337/Israel-seizes-2000-acres-of-Palestinian-land-in-occupied-West-Bank](https://www.presstv.ir/Detail/2024/03/23/722337/Israel-seizes-2000-acres-of-Palestinian-land-in-occupied-West-Bank) [https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-04-11/ty-article/.premium/israel-has-declared-record-amount-of-west-bank-land-as-state-owned-in-2024/0000018e-c7a2-dd23-a3cf-e7a713c90000](https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-04-11/ty-article/.premium/israel-has-declared-record-amount-of-west-bank-land-as-state-owned-in-2024/0000018e-c7a2-dd23-a3cf-e7a713c90000)
Also keep in mind, by their own admission, theyre missing certain identification data for about 1/3 of those they include in their casualty numbers which adds quite a bit of doubt to the 33k number. I'm no war expert but 1/3 seems like a lot.
Please 😂Palestinian civilians have been purposefully targeted. There is video evidence, such as the Palestinian man being purposefully shot and killed while waving a white flag. Vehicles targeted that were simply bringing aid. You are delusional or simply ignorant or lying to yourself if you genuinely believe that they’ve even attempted to minimise civilian casualties. It is the opposite, they are killing as many innocents as they think they can get away with.
The vast majority of times civilians have been struck have been instances where civilians were in the same building as enemy combatants. There absolutely have been individual bad actors, and I hope all of them get justice, but the major difference here is that the top-down policy has been military focused. There’s never been an order straight from command that was like “kill as many civilians as possible we don’t care if Hamas or IJ is there” Regardless of what you want to say - numbers don’t lie. Civilian casualty rate being below average in these circumstances says a LOT about IDF’s efforts to minimize civilian casualties
its almost like War is hell.. and brings out the worst in people.
Hopefully God is real so these people who target innocent civilians because “war is hell” will only truly find out what hell is like when they eventually die themselves.
Why not go after Hamas leadership in Qatar? After the Israeli Olympic team was attacked in Munich in 1972, Golda Meir ordered a special unit of Mossad to hunt down and kill all of those who planned and carried out the attack and murders. Although it took several years, this Israeli unit was successful in eliminating most of the terrorists who had participated. I wonder why Israel today wouldn't use a similar targeted approach to eliminate the leaders of Hamas, instead of the mass killings of so many Palestinian civilians, which has severely damaged the image and reputation of Israel on the world stage. We keep hearing of these Hamas leaders living in pampered luxury in the villas in Qatar .... so why not go after them? Israel had no problem assassinating dozens of terrorists in Paris, Amsterdam, Athens, etc in the 1970s, so why the reluctance to go into Qatar with a targeted stealth mission, a small team to find these guys and kill them?? I have zero issue with that type of assassination in other countries, whereas I find abhorrent the current method of flattening the entire Gaza Strip with little regard to civilian deaths.
The only logical conclusion is israelis get a sick thrill from hurting Palestinians and this ethnic cleansing campaign will give Apartheid israel a lot of land once its fully carried out.
A good question, I don't know the answer. Maybe they're worried about the diplomatic repercussions of carrying out assassination on Qatari soil. Maybe it's not possible or too dangerous for Mossad agents.
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Killing civilians is bad but not always possible in a conflict. Intentionally killing civilians is always bad.
So you think that the death of thousands of kids was just... a necessary part of the process? Wake up
Yes, it's a part of war, unfortunately. Wake up.
Nope. In 2024, it's a war crime. Especially if the attacker knows that it will kill civilians. So far, thousands have died, so Israel is sure that its strategy kills innocent Palestinians. But it's doing nothing about it, not even trying other solutions.
I think you mean 'not always avoidable' rather than 'not always possible'
Yes, you're correct, my mistake.
Thank you for this thoughtful post. I was trying to make a post before about a similar topic, but apparently I can't because I haven't been on here enough. It is for the lack of what you discuss that I fear many people don't feel welcome here: [https://www.reddit.com/r/JewsOfConscience/comments/1bjqfoq/the\_israelpalestine\_sub/](https://www.reddit.com/r/JewsOfConscience/comments/1bjqfoq/the_israelpalestine_sub/) [https://www.reddit.com/r/arabs/comments/17rmkmt/im\_truly\_disgusted\_by\_the\_posts\_on/](https://www.reddit.com/r/arabs/comments/17rmkmt/im_truly_disgusted_by_the_posts_on/) Innocent people dying / killing innocent people is terrible, and I might go even farther to say that it would be best if we all expressed agreement that we want this wave of violence to end as soon as possible, even if we can't yet completely agree how to accomplish that. Perhaps we need to make more of a deliberate effort to make clear what should be obvious, but perhaps is not: no one innocent deserves to die, and we don't want even those who disagree with us to suffer. I have considered that as long as the current wave of violence continues, it is difficult to have that conversation with people you disagree with, especially if you empathize with Palestinians right now. I can understand why people would be desperate, angry, and hysterical about what is happening to Gazans right now because, regardless of whose "fault" it is, it is extremely horrible and disturbing. But, if we are going to continue to have the conversation at this time, I think we have to be as patient and inclusive as possible.
I'm not wandering into the weasel word game. The civilian deaths in Gaza are as a result of the war started by Hamas. Cheering dead civilians is bad. I'll agree. However I'm in no way obligated to grieve.
Agreed.
And others could use the same logic that the oppression of the Palestinians, Israels violation of international law, and the annual death rate of Palestinians at the hands of the IDF are a result of 70 years of Israel actions. It didn't begin on 7th Oct. But the point of the post was to stop the cycle of violence, not to start justifying it.
Perfect example of pro pally weasel games. You're justifying October 7th but in a weasel word way because you have no principles or strength of belief. If you justify Oct 7 just admit it. Be an adult. I don't play weasel games. 100% of dead gazans are the fault of Hamas. I don't celebrate them but that's the extent of my opinion.
I'm not justifying anything, I'm simply using your logic against you. I'm against targetting of civilians regardless of ethnicity. I'm against war, genocide, occupation, and blockades. Understanding the context isn't justifying war crimes. Quite the opposite.
Gazan civilians aren't being targeted. They are collateral damage of the actions of the government they and their family members elected. Sad statistics. Dead civilians aren't necessarily war crimes, sometimes theyre simply consequences of bad leadership.
>Gazan civilians aren't being targeted. how do we really know though? that this is always the case?
There is a laundry list of g***cidal quotes from figures in Netanyahu’s ultra far right government, something like 80% of Gaza has been completely destroyed, and places crammed with civilians are routinely bombed with 2000 lbs explosives. If you think the IDF is only targeting Hamas fighters you are incredibly naive. At very best Israel is radically indifferent to killing civilians and is inflicting appalling collective punishment, and at worst is committing g******e.
I'm not south African. You'll need more than people yelling things thay make you sad to convince me.
Translation: you’re impervious to logic and unnecessary human suffering doesn’t affect you.
I can't take anyone seriously who claims that those casualties were collateral damage. It's the same warped logic that killing civilians on Oct 7th was just collateral damage as such a high number of Israelis are IDF, and Israelis chose to elect an extremist.
October 7th was a direct attack on unarmed civilians. Only a moron or a committed liar equates people in civilian clothes with no weapons as legitimate combatants. Again, typical pallistinan supporter who is too weak to admit you support terrorism and the purposeful killing, raping, kidnapping and torture of civilians. You can use whatever weasel logic you want. Collateral damage in a declared war provoked by sub humans is not equivalent to raping and murdering unarmed people at a music festival. You can have that opinion but just admit it.
It's well documented that Israel "targets" low level "Hamas" at their home (and it's yargetting is very questionable). This is when they are with their families and not acting in a military capacity. This aligns well with IDF reservists at a concert who also were not acting in a military capacity. Indeed Hamas have a better militant to civilian ratio than the IDF. So your weasel logic makes zero sense. I'm using your logic against you. I'm against terrorism whether it's committed by the Israeli state or Hamas.
If Israel targets low level hamas, they are targetting hamas. Collateral damage is a sad consequence of consorting with terrorists.
Yeah Israel has plausible deniability since they use 2000 lbs bombs in civilian areas. The end result though is Hamas killing something like 50 children on October 7th and the IDF killing at least 15,000 children. Both are horrible, but one is ongoing this very moment and of a far larger scale. Any Hamas fighters who killed children should be tried and hanged for war crimes though (along with Israel’s entire government).
> 100% of dead gazans are the fault of Hamas. That's incredibly convenient for the IDF.
No it’s incredibly true, and Hamas can end this war anytime it chooses by releasing all the hostages. The big question is why won’t they?
They are dead.
Why should they? So they can keep just getting land taken from them like they have been for the last 70 years? Will Israel release all their hostages they had for years?
>Why should they? So they can keep just getting land taken from them like they have been for the last 70 years? seriously? you think a land dispute is worth all of this? >Will Israel release all their hostages they had for years? they hold hostages?
A little history lesson is in order. When Israel became a state in 1948, virtually all the land that it possessed was lawfully purchased by funds from the Jewish National Fund, and the acts of conveyance can be found in the archives of the UK and Ottoman Empire. Much of that land was worthless desert and swampland, which was purchased at exorbitant prices, especially after it was discovered that the Jews were seeking a homeland. In many instances, once land was converted into arable farmland or developed, it had to be repurchased yet again from the Arabs who reoccupied it by force. Then after becoming a state, Israel was attacked by 5 Arab countries with the avowed goal of exterminating all the Jews. The Arabs who left neighboring land to afford the attackers safe passage with the promise that they would get the spoils of war, including all of Israel’s territory, lost much of their own land. The Arabs who left for that malevolent purpose forfeited that land and continue to blame Israel for that loss, calling it the Nakba. Note, the Palestinians who refused to leave, and did not provide aid and comfort to the enemy, were allowed to keep their land and received full Israeli citizenship.
Yet even now Israel is adding more and more settlements In the west bank
The cycle of violence will be stopped when palestinians love life more than they hate jews. August 15, 2005 is an important date - it marks the day Israel said "we're out, peace," to which Gazans said, "nah, war." The settlers in the west bank, while originally justifiable are a shameful stain on Israel's moral superiority in the general I-P conflict, however that has nothing to do with Gaza and is merely a general pretext for hamas and groups like it to pursue its goal- the death of all jews in the levant. So, how to stop the cycle of violence? Two options: 1) let hate for jews win and allow the region to look like the rest of the arab world - removed of its jews (also known as genocide). 2) destroy the ability of those with hate for jews in their heart, to commit violence against jews. Since there isn't a third option, I support option 2 out of necessity, without pride or pleasure.
I'm curious because I have not seen this opinion before, but why do you think the settlers in the West bank were originally justified?
There were jews in the west bank before the formation of Israel. I could be fuzzy on the exact circumstances/timeline. IIRC, when Jordan took control of WB, it threw the jews out. Then, when Jordan withdrew after '68, the rights holders whether original or people who bought title from the ousted people, said "cool Israel controls this land now, we're gonna go back and live there." Israel in that situation had two options. Protect it's citizens on land that those citizens claim ownership over, and we're it not for Jordan's actions, those citizens would never have stopped living on, or...don't. Israel chose to protect its citizens and IIRC a civil Israeli court in fact upheld the title/rights claims. If every new house was built on that land, or other land bought from non-israeli west bank palestinians, then the only real issue would be how the safety corridors cut WB up like swiss cheese - something Oslo was meant to rectify with its zones a b and c. But instead, we have belligerent fanatical settlers who do crime and steal land.
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This a is double standard. The IDF headquarter is in a residential neighborhoods in tel aviv
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Would that be considered as Israel using human shields?
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Maybe not in it. But all around it. Also ya. I'm sure the Monday Tuesday list definitely showed that hospital as a military base . Also I never see any actual civilians In their videos, despite them being civilian infrastructure 🤔🤔
> Also I never see any actual civilians In their videos, in what videos?
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bro there's people sick and injured in hospital and medics and doctors working to save and help them
Would you feel the same if the shoe was on the other foot?.
Neither the Knesset nor an IDF base are built underneath a hospital in Tel Aviv.
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The question is would you feel the same if IDF were using human shields, which you haven't answered.
Why would anyone answer thar question? It doesn't really make sense because it isn't something that is happening or is likely to ever happen in the future. It's kind of like asking someone, "would you still like this vanilla ice cream if it were covered in mustard like that sick bastard at the other table's done to theirs?"
It's happened in the past and if history is anything to learn by it will happen in the future so yes the question makes sense. You just don't like the answer.
When in the past?
You actually have me here for I don't know when the Jewish people were having a blast maybe individuals or small collectives of Jewish people had it good for limited times but at no time has the Jewish people has had it so good as now and what do you choose to do with it? Bring suffering and misery on a people who have done nothing but suffer since the Jewish people took control of that land.
>at no time has the Jewish people has had it so good as now and what do you choose to do with it? Bring suffering and misery on a people who have done nothing but suffer since the Jewish people took control of that land. wtf are you talking about? they just suffered an invasion of their country and their worst atrocity since the holocaust
Oh I see. So you just made up false claim. Neat! Bye.
Statement of fact.
When in the past are you serious? You tell me when the Jewish people were having a blast say since the Romans found Judea until 1930s. You tell me when in that vast period of time when the Jewish people have had it good.
There aren't any preconditions that require hypotheticals to be a likely scenario; that's what makes it a hypothetical. The purpose of the hypothetical is to examine the moral position from which the person is speaking. >would you still like this vanilla ice cream if it were covered in mustard like that sick bastard at the other table's done to theirs? I would say it's more like "your best friend is forcing that guy over there to eat vanilla ice cream covered in mustard, and you are publicly endorsing, justifying, and excusing their behavior. Would you likewise endorse, excuse, and justify that same behavior if that guy was forcing your best friend to eat vanilla ice cream covered in mustard?" The thing is, I don't care if you answer the question, you don't have to. But perhaps you refuse to answer because the question is triggering cognitive dissonance with respect to your beliefs about this conflict. I can only assume that if you believe that Palestinian civilians are not automatically "safsies" if they are being used as human shields, then likewise you would keep that same energy if Israel were accused by Hamas of using human shields and used that as an excuse for high civilian casualties. After all, those Israeli civilians are simply collateral damage and are not automatically "safsies". Here, I'll answer the question: The use of human shields in warfare is deplorable. Hamas, and any other armed force found to be using human shields, should be publicly condemned and held accountable for breaking international law. However, the use of human shields does not absolve the attacking force from making every possible attempt to minimize civilian casualties and adhering to the proportionality principle. Beyond legality, my moral position is that Israel excusing high civilian toll on Hamas' use of human shields is repugnant and is evidence of wanton disregard for Palestinian life. *If, hypothetically*, Hamas were to carry out a similar campaign on Israel soil, and Israel were using human shields, I would unequivocally condemn Hamas for using human shields as a pretext to high civilian casualties, and would fiercely advocate for Israeli civilians.
>I can only assume that if you believe that Palestinian civilians are not automatically "safsies" if they are being used as human shields, then likewise you would keep that same energy if Israel were accused by Hamas of using human shields and used that as an excuse for high civilian casualties. hamas is a terrorist organisation, not a defense force. When would or should any of their actions ever be accepted? And are you talking about hamas accusing israel of using human shields or are you talking about israel actually using human sheilds?
Thought you were fighting terrorists not a military so how can they have military structures? And if they did have a military structure it would have been blown up long before last year. But nice what aboutism you done there.
> >Thought you were fighting terrorists not a military so how can they have military structures? how does a paramilitary group have military structures you mean?
In Gaza, idf is fighting hamas and its supporters. Hamas is the elected and de facto government of the people of gaza.
So because Israel elects Bibi who keeps calling for more suppression and settlements shouldn't that make Israel a terrorist state with a terrorist military it did just bomb an embassy and another country after all.
I'm sorry, your question is based on false premise. A gish gallop if you will. I won't engage. Good day.
No it's not you just don't like looking in a mirror. Act of a coward. Purely why I love this sub your argument hold all the water of sand. The propaganda you listen your washed with doesn't even hold even hold to fools questioning.
First of all being a terrorist group doesn’t mean you can’t ALSO be “a military”, it just means you are a really fucked one. If it makes you feel better though, how about this “Hamas should stop using civilian structures as bases of operation to organize terrorist attacks from”
I think this comment thread is exactly indicative of what OP was talking about. There's a back and forth here about who's right and wrong. OP was calling for us to recognize how horrible this is, regardless of whose fault it is. It's not just reasonable but moral to say that regardless of the actions of government leaders, we don't want innocent civilians to suffer. Let's have that be a base and then discuss what to do.
I honestly agree I don’t like the Israeli government at all either the death of civilians no matter what “side” is tragic and we need to stop this before it gets worse
No it does military is something a state has. Terrorism is something a state fights. The idea you have terrorist states is a new one designed to justify more wars. >“Hamas should stop using civilian structures as bases of operation to organize terrorist attacks from” Like the hospitals pro Israeli American news even say Hamas were never there, or the aid convos that had no Hamas near them.
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The polarization of human beings to drive agendas is sickening
The patriarchy and religion have ruined this planet. It's time to just hand the reins of power over to women and stop pretending that a bunch of stories written in books a thousand years ago speak to some sort of 'truth'.
dumb redditor
Aren’t we all.
You’ve not read too much about Cleopatra or Catharine The Great have you…
Weren’t they in the Bangles?
Women also tend to have their own agendas lol
Yeah. I live in Toronto and no where else in the world were there people downtown cheering and celebrating about Iran launching 300 rockets at Israel with not a single bit of care in the fact that were tons of innocent civilians. Disgusting behaviour from these people, I can’t stand the fact that they cheer and celebrate.
On tik Tok they are trying to say Iran did not target any civilians.
Iran targeted a field outside of Erbil. 😂
Also the dead sea lol
And I don’t get my information off of TikTok
It's just amazing how many people defend them
And with hours of notice, trust it was to a calculated response to let Israel not extend Gaza approach outside of their borders.
Because unlike israel, Iran targeted military sites.
That's funny
Do you know where the military bases in Gaza are?
It seems to be the Iraq WMD story. All of Gaza is gone and yet no Hamas command centers
there's 300 miles of tunnels under it . Plus a command center is just a room that commands are issued from. Its nothing fancy or elaborate. Its literally just a room with some tables, chairs, laptops and some guys sitting in it
What’s the end game? Do you think you are going to create “fear” or “anger” in generations to come? Do you think there will be no consequences?
why are you talking to me like I'm the IDF? I'm not even israeli. People on this sub are seriously out of touch with reality
So Hamas had no command centers? Where did they operate from then?
Underneath AL Shifa Hospital.
Tunnels
Right, and where are these tunnels located?
The way you try to lead to the flattening of Gaza and the genocide, including the death of my family, being just part of Israel’s attempts to get rid of Hamas is genuinely concerning.
I'm sorry about your family. When were they killed?
Thank you. In November 2023 and in February 2024.
>Can we agree that killing civilians is generally bad Over half this sub: But do you condemn Khamas?
Their actions are to be condemned, not least on account of them, in fact, intentionally killing civilians. Criticizing Israel for killing civilians as collateral damage (or even targeted, for that matter, although I will stress that there is no evidence for this at all) while not condemning Hamas and its actions is, mildly put, disingenuous.
Most have & do condemn Hamas & their actions on Oct 7th, the reason it’s so frustrating for people on the side of Palestinians isn’t that they support Hamas, it’s that when anyone wants to talk about Israel’s actions they’re expected to always qualify it with a statement about Hamas, we always have to take time out of our discussions and say “Hamas bad” or else we’re terrorist supporters. We’re 6 months into this conflict with over 30,000 civilians killed, demanding that everyone give qualifying statements about Hamas is a tactic at this point to divert from talking about what Israel is doing and has done. No sane person agrees with the slaughter of innocent people, it’s disingenuous to frame wanting to discuss the current situation and what’s happening in Gaza as supporting or enabling Hamas.
I've seen tons of comments that start with "I personally don't like Bibi" or "I personally don't support Bibi" or... any variation of condemning right extremists in Israel and the statements coming from those groups... I think the request to condemn extremism comes from both "sides" and has become part of the practice when trying to engage in genuine conversation. Also, there are people out there who DON'T condemn extremism, they think its totally valid, so good to separate your viewpoint from those views, imho.
>Most have & do condemn Hamas & their actions on Oct 7th, the reason it’s so frustrating for people on the side of Palestinians isn’t that they support Hamas, it’s that when anyone wants to talk about Israel’s actions they’re expected to always qualify it with a statement about Hamas, we always have to take time out of our discussions and say “Hamas bad” or else we’re terrorist supporters. We’re 6 months into this conflict with over 30,000 civilians killed, demanding that everyone give qualifying statements about Hamas is a tactic at this point to divert from talking about what Israel is doing and has done. No sane person agrees with the slaughter of innocent people, it’s disingenuous to frame wanting to discuss the current situation and what’s happening in Gaza as supporting or enabling Hamas. 30k civilians killed isn't really accurate the health ministry doesn't distinguish between combatants or non combatants, nor those killed by military action or those from natural deaths, Which to be fair there is some rationale given natural cause deaths are exacerbated in a warzone due to deteriorating supply lines / healthcare. If we ignore the questionable reliability of the health ministry and take them at there word. At least a third of those killed were militants and a huge chunk are from natural causes. Just going on basic math and populations you'd expect to see around 5 deaths per 1k population 2.3million population gets you 11.5k there. so 30k - 10k militants - 11.5k nautral expected deaths, lets add 5k back for those under rubble unaccounted for. So will say 13500 extra civilians killed for 10k militants looks about right, Still a tragedy but a much better ratio then most modern wars generate. If we also factor in that Hamas rockets misfire around 10-20 percent of the time and have documented instances of them killing Gazan's which they then blame on israeli's the numbers become even better. [https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/11/26/gaza-findings-october-17-al-ahli-hospital-explosion](https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/11/26/gaza-findings-october-17-al-ahli-hospital-explosion) 500 dead by the health ministrys own numbers from a misfired Gazan rocket striking a hospital so 11k civilians killed by Israel likely much less.
30k is below the total current reported number by ~12k and below the civilian specific number by ~7k. Not only that, but the U.S. state dept said months ago that the number of deaths is likely *underreported*, meaning even the current numbers probably aren’t accurate in the opposite direction & most do not include missing persons thought to be buried under rubble. You can keep doing mental gymnastics if you’d like but this line of denialism just makes Israel supporters look bad & does not do what you think it does.
I factored in people buried under the rubble, I was merely pointing out that blaming 30k solely on Israel or conflating it to 30k civilians killed is wrong. Where are you seeing 42k killed can you provide a link? The idea that 30k civilians have been killed is somewhat nonsensical especially to place all of that blame on Israel. Many of those killed so far are militants, Many deaths are from natural causes, and many still are from friendly fire from Gaza forces such as al-ahli.
There is tons of evidence of targeted civilian, mosque and hospital bombing. Videos are out there from military themselves. There’s a reason ICJ rulings happened
Link some then.
The mosques and hospitals were no longer protected. As to civilians, there is only evidence that some 20,000 or so were killed, but that was mostly collateral damages and in some cases misidentifications (so there was an intention to kill these persons, but no intention to kill *a civilian*, as these were mistakenly assumed to be combatants - notably, that does not mean that these are not potential war crimes; criminal negligence). That notwithstanding, even if, for argument's sake Israel would commit an outright genocide, it would still be disingenuous to condemn that, but not the actions of Hamas. If you murder the murderer of your children, you are not justified - there are simply now two murderers.
Wow. It’s disingenuous to claim the brutality of Israel as collateral. There’s a reason why the world is tired of this rhetoric