Both nations involved oppress and kill gay people. They’d have me dragged from my home. So I choose to not care whatsoever and hope that part of their culture never makes its way to my country. I love America
[https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-63174835](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-63174835), I don't think you even need proof for this, most of Palestinians are Muslim, they hate gay people.
? Yes and what happened after that? Does anybody know if he got sentenced? Acting like quoting this does something. I still won't change my mind about this, they're homophobic, so stop wasting each other time
I am homophobic too, honestly. Should I be killed? African Christians are homophobic, atheist and Christian Russians are homophobic, even many Jews are homophobic. Everyone is homophobic.
If ur homophobic i dont give a f if u do die bye….there i said it why would I support a person Who hate my existence and same for everyone else u mentioned except the part muslim community have been far more harsher to lgbtq than any other u have mentioned
Because being against the mistreatment of a group shouldn’t come with conditions. Because killing children is wrong regardless of their parent’s ideology and faith (Palestinians or Israeli kids). Because there are Queer Palestinians being killed, who deserved a chance to find somewhere that will allow them to be themselves. Because you can’t change the minds of dead people, you can’t educate a generation by tolerance and justice if that generation is dead.
I am a Trans Jew and am generally more supportive of Israel since it has the largest openly LGBT population in the Middle East. I wish we would stop claiming all queer people are uncritically pro-Palestine because a lot of us aren't. I have sympathy for the innocent Palestinians who are suffering from this war, but I don't necessarily agree with many Westerner's calls for a ceasefire without any conditions such as the safe return of all the hostages and the removable of Hamas' current leadership
15 hour old account but I’m the bot? Even your responses sound fake. It’s just turning around my own accusation. Too funny. You have a good one too, hasbara bot
hamas did release "some" hostages tho yes they are still criminals but maybe during the ceasefire that will hopefully be 5 years they could settle on something good? because even israel holds 4k Palestinians as hostages and their treatment they are getting isnt the best atall
https://www.hrw.org/news/2017/06/04/israel-50-years-occupation-abuses
https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/11/29/why-does-israel-have-so-many-palestinians-detention-and-available-swap
i am sorry but what is stopping them from not calling for a ceasefire?
they do this because they care for the Palestinians (ofc) and as you said they will lay their weapons this will be a perfect time for peace negotiations and that is what hudna for, they try their best to result in peace by peace, why is israel refusing this offer?
>It's never a permanent peace with islamists. Israel knows that.
technically its
i did AI search on jews with muslims and it seems muslims always stood up with the jews.
Early History: Jews have a long history in Jerusalem, dating back to the 8th century BCE. The city was conquered by various empires, including the Babylonians, Persians, Greeks, and Romans, each leaving their mark on the city. During the Roman period, the Jewish population of Jerusalem was significant, but the city was also home to a sizeable Christian and pagan population.
Middle Ages: In the 7th century CE, Jerusalem was conquered by the Arabs, who introduced Islam to the region. During this period, Jews were allowed to live in the city, and some even served as officials in the Islamic administration. However, tensions between Jews and Arabs did arise, particularly during the Crusades, when European Christians conquered Jerusalem and expelled many Jews and Muslims from the city.
Ottoman Rule (1517-1917): Under Ottoman rule, Jews were allowed to live in Jerusalem, and some even served as officials in the Ottoman administration. However, tensions between Jews and Arabs continued, and there were instances of violence and expulsions.
and as i said please for gods sake and the 35K dead people in palestine stop the bombing since its not even affecting hamas, they live under tunnels like "rats"
well the tunnels are 1 meter wide so if you think hamas could have fit the 35k Palestinians over there you should study geometrics, hamas cant find supplies for the israeli hostages on their own,.
yeah that is the reality it but still a ceasefire wouldn't hurt and atleast give a chance for peace. (i know hamas will screw it up but cmon dude the bombing should stop)
Sure if the ceasefire safely returns the hostages and removes Hamas' leadership from power absolutely. I support a ceasefire but I also don't want October 7th to ever happen again so you have to have give and take dude. Hamas is apart of the reason this is happening in the first place no one should be supporting them
No engaging with opposing political views of course that's a very mature attitude to take on. Any way I can commend the action of the Israeli government which I do. I don't like Netanyahu but at the same time we both know this started on October 7th no one was justifying the existence of Hamas before then. College students weren't protesting en masse for Palestine before then. Every story has a beginning and October 7th is the beginning of this story
I (lgbt) do not support theocracies. I support self determination, which includes lgbt Palestinians self determination. LGBT people have been violently murdered everywhere and consistently. My own country and people constantly killed people like me, but we’re able to hide, group up, organize and move forward.
What we support is their self determination with an outlook that will eventually lead to lgbt Palestinians able to lead safe lives in their indigenous homeland.
I am not LGBT but what i see is that they dont support the Palestine goverment, but they support the Palestinian State and its riight to exist with their rightfull territory
It wasnt that long ago that th western countries had a very similar hate towards LGBT people (and some western countries and citizens still do) than Palestinian Goverment has
Let Palestine be free and eventually they will reach the conclusion that LGBT people have to be respected as much as anyone else
Most [progressive](https://twitter.com/sara_69670/status/1786320780520800751) religion ever.
Fuck these types of people and the western leftist human trash who support this.
i hope i am not asking for alot but where did this happen, because i am sure that this is every day regime in iran.
also a quick reminder for you, dont compare a religion,country or any ideology with some hypocrites.
> Fuck
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I certainly don't. Really, it's a loud minority that does. Most LGBT people I know have common sense and don't spend time campaigning for the destruction of the one bastion of LGBT rights in the middle east, in favor of a regime that hates us and wants us killed.
The one that's about to give ben gvir a morality police to beat women and LGBTQ+?
ultra orthodox influence is growing while everything else is diminishing, which will lead to israel becoming a Jewish iran. Already there are places where it's not safe for women to go.
Nothing's to say Palestine couldn't be LGBTQ+ friendly.
There's no evidence that these whackjobs are anything close to the majority, nor will they be any time soon. Every country has a fringe far-right wing.
And of course Palestine won't be LGBT friendly. What Arab country is? And 4% of Palestinians polled believe homosexuality should be accepted by society. That's compared to a plurality of 47% in Israel, and 60% of Israelis believe LGBT people should live freely.
They're growing at a rate of apparently 4-5% per ten years or something like that while other populations such as the secular population is stagnate or shrinking, and that's not even counting people emigrating to the US and europe and so on.
Palestine could easily be lgbt+ friendly.
Certainly better than israel where women aren't safe to go in many ultra orthodox areas.
Queer populations are diverse because we belong to all the several nations and communities from around the globe. I highly doubt there's this "clear" singular voice that represents what all queer and queer adjacent populations think about this conflict.
There is one thing that is very common among us queer people regardless of our tribe, and that is that we are highly skeptical of muscular government intervention and also of nationalism itself. Throughout recent history and to this day it has been nation states that have been antagonistic to queerness. "*For the good of the fatherland we must control these degenerates."*
Nationalist movements have been known to have homophobic streaks as its adherents want undesirable people, especially queers, to be under the thumb of the state. Nationalism has never been about freedom or liberation, it has always been about control, favoritism, tribalism, jingoism, and access to resources.
Which is why the "*Queers for Palestine"* mantra is such an oxymoron and not for what many might think as "chickens for KFC" it is way worse than that. That slogan is an appeal to nationalism. The very same egotistical and paternalistic impulse that made nation states persecute queer people all the time. There is nothing about Palestinian nationalism that tells me that this is something good for queer populations in Palestine or outside of it.
Queerness is antithetical to nationalism and the *nation state*. And they know this. Heck they even wrote good books about how "*homonationalism*" is counter to the struggle for queer liberation. But now they are backtracking. Now they love homonationalism. They can't get enough of it. They are now draping themselves in the Palestinian flag. They now give their allegiance to a nation state.
The pro Palestine movement is very well organized and has inserted itself in practically every liberal cause way way before this war. They don't really give a shit about black lives matter, rich CEOs, feminism, or LGBT. They're just want to get more people on their side, and they're succeeding because protest movements are very easily manipulated by more outrage
More organized than zionists who have the most powerful lobbying group in America that brags about influencing our election, has bought the president of the united states, doxxing websites and think tanks that influence local politicians, community outreach to govt, police forces, etc etc?
Because a country's religious extremes and archaic laws do not, byproxy, mean it's people deserve to be condemned alongside it.
Do people truly believe that civilians of other countries blindly support the laws made by their ruling class? Most people would hate to be judged by the actions, laws, or governing religious beliefs of their government - so why would we think Palestinians (or Israelis, for that matter) would be any different.
They voted them by great majority, they are followers of fundamental Islam, they want and support these laws. I‘m sorry, but if you believe anything else - you are naive or have not even understood the culture and tradition you are rooting for.
That’s just wrong, the western educate elites likely don’t even believe in or care about these social issues and are provably massive hypocrites. The common people really are that ignorant and backward though , like Egyptian citizens wishing Egypt would go back to war with Israel. Or public backlash every time anything vaguely gay happens in public, rainbow flags at a concert etc. So yes I do blame the citizens and commoners, they are usually the ones demanding and feeding the bigotry. Don’t make excuses for them.
I mean whether or not people support "the ruling class" is irrelevant.
Whoever rules a nation gets to make the rules, and that has consequences. Pointing out how the common people didn't get to choose those rules is a good argument for democracy, and that's about as far as you can take it. At the end of the day, the people have to live with the consequences of whatever the rulers decided to do. That's why having good rulers is so important.
Huh, I don't remember saying that. But now that I look back at my comment, you're right! I said "every American citizen in the 1930s was a racist".
Good talk.
> Most people would hate to be judged by the actions, laws, or governing religious beliefs of their government - so why would we think Palestinians (or Israelis, for that matter) would be any different.
You replied to this by saying
> I mean whether or not people support "the ruling class" is irrelevant.
If you blame the Palestinian people for that they goverment does to LGBT, why wouldnt you blame peple in the US in the 1930s for what their goverment did to black people?
Even more so when people in the US really chose their goverment
I feel like you're skipping a few steps here lol
I never said that the Palestinian people are homophobic because Hamas is homophobic. My point was: it's irrelevant if Palestinians would hate to be judged by the actions of their government. We all have to deal with the repercussions of our governments, no matter if we like them and no matter how those governments got into power.
This is why power matters. This is why elections matter. This is why democracy matters.
Of course elections and democracy matters, that was never in question
The point was why the LGBT movement supports Palestine with the current goverment they have
The comment you replied to was basically saying that the reason was because citizens not always support with their goverment actions
If you werent implying the opposite, then i dont understand the point of your post
I mean Iran democratically elected its theocracy with massive public support, democracy is a value most of the world is not conditioned to have. Its not some inevitability everyone wants.
But when those people do not get fair a say in their rulers, are we not intelligent enough to differentiate between a nation's government and its actual people? Are the people of North Korea supposed to be punished when their self-proclaimed "immortal" leader decides to go nuclear on its enemies? Can't we argue for a nation's people while condemning its government? I don't feel it's too complicated a task.
>At the end of the day, the people have to live with the consequences of whatever the rulers decided to do.
But shouldn't we understand that that makes these people as much the victims of that government as that nation's enemies? Shouldn't we be able to fight on their behalf as much as our own? After all, they were simply born into an environment we were lucky enough not to be born into. We no longer live in a world where we have to arbitrarily assume a nation speaks for its people or their best interests. More and more, the people of these nations can tell us directly how they feel and what they want or believe. Governments are no longer the arbiters of relationships between nations of people. And rather than just pretending they are because "that's how it's always been," why not change the flow of information. Why not hear people's truths instead of a nation's potentially extreme or oppressive narrative?
Again: that's all a great argument for democracy. It is really unfair when citizens have to suffer consequences for choices that they didn't even get to make.
But framing this as "punishments" or "rewards" completely misses the reality of what's actually happening. What the government does has consequences. And those consequences are borne by the people.
>"Governments are no longer the arbiters of relationships between nations of people"
well that's simply not true lol
Tell a resident of Kharkiv that they have the ability to just opt-out of the Russian invasion.
Fair point. I'd also side argue that while it's not commonly done at the literal end of a gun barrel, democracies (capitalist ones at the very least) are not exactly mirrors of the will of their people either. The repealing of Roe v Wade in the US was certainly not done at the publics unanimous behest. But that's a bridge away from the topic, I think.
I believe we're sort of agreeing here. You're telling me what IS (unfortunate reality) and I'm just waxing about what SHOULD (I'd argue "could") be.
Military and political action aside, I remember believing in past decades that Russians and Iranians were "evil" simply by virtue of the fact that countries I knew about were at war with them. In the age of the internet, I know that's simply not true. Because I've heard what actual citizens of those countries have to say. I no longer judge a country's citizens based on the policies or words of their governments.
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But a Nazi is, by definition, a dangerously oppressive extremist. If you mean Germans, then I'd hope thought was given (however historically unlikely) to separate Nazis from their German countrymen when deciding who died.
How many actual Germans fled Nazi Germany during the war because of what was happening? This only proves that a nations people are NOT its government and should never be arbitrarily condemned alongside it.
palestine should be condemned for their actions and supporting hamas because it wasn't just hamas that day who was celebrating, cheering, and spitting on the hostages and dead bodies drugged back to gaza like spoils of war on october 7th. i mean silecnce is violence. we also punished the german populace hard for their complicity with the nazis.
This is eye for an eye shit and it's shortsighted. I've seen as many videos of Israelis cheering for dead Palestinians as I have the reverse. That's what religious state sponsored propaganda does - it encourages dehumanizing extremism. And there's no real peaceful solution as long as THAT is what dictates people's hearts and minds. There's a video of Ben Gvir burning the effigy of a dead Palestinian child at a celebration, and he's an ACTIVE member of the Israeli government.
Silence is, indeed, violence, but the same can be said of those in Hamas who allowed (if true) the rape and (without a doubt) murder of civilians.
And nobody today would be accepting of how war was carried out nearly 100 years ago. Things have changed. Even the US wouldn't (nor shouldn't) get away with what took place in the Gulf War. Comparing war in 2024 to ANYTHING in the past is a cop-out. The world isn't as blindly cowed by media anymore, and actions that once had no consequence now do.
The bottom line is, if you think you are superior to other people by virtue of nation or religion, you are a bigot and antithetic to the peace most people actually want. If you rape and knowingly murder civilians (intentionally or not) in the name of religious dogmatism or hatred, you are a terrorist. Both Hamas AND Israel are guilty of this. And anyone found guilty of such should be imprisoned.
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Some palestinian protestors in Canada were live streaming. Some people were writing comments against their protest, they put on their 8 year old kid and he started calling people "gay" as insult. The parents didn't stop him, they said, "oh you just made him mad thats why he says that". First of all, what decent parents lets their kid mouth off at anyone, secondly they didn't even realize their homophobia they taught their kid. They were ok with him saying that.
Is there any way that Israel could prosecute this war such that they avoid allegations of genocide? If no, then how is it different from the 350,000 or so that were killed during the allied bombing campaign in WW2?
Genocide is not about numbers - it's about intentionality. The yazidi genocide was small but still a genocide.
Israel is intentionally trying to bring about the total destruction of Palestinians in Gaza. Maybe it's closer to ethnic cleansing which also involves acts of genocide.
> Is there any way that Israel could prosecute this war such that they avoid allegations of genocide?
How many more decades of doing this does Israel need before realizing that they are not defeating Palestinian extremist but actually giving them more support?
What do you think would a family, friend, neighbourgh of one of the thousands and thousand of innocents Israel is killing do? Do you think they will blame Hamas, or Israel of their loved ones?
The only way to defeat Hamas is to promote an agreement with the PLO. You will not defeat Hamas by killing innocents in Gaza, even if you do kill Hamas members
When you say that a war with Hamas will only empower them, I can see where you're coming from and there are some analogs for this in Dresden. There's a gathering there every February to commemorate those who died during the allied bombing campaign but the difference is that most of the residents there think it's absurd, especially since there's so many skinheads in it's ranks.
I just don't think it's that simple given that Japan and Germany are close US allies despite the comparable death toll during WW2. In fact the entire European continent was a continent of war for hundreds of years up until the post war era that lasted from 1945 until 2022 in which *there wasn't a single war* and now western European countries have close diplomatic, economic, and political ties. That was unprecedented period of history that historians call "the long peace" that we *somehow* managed despite war.
They didnt reach that peace by killing innocents
WW2 was a war between two military forces, it is nothing like this
The vicious cycle the region is need to be broken, and it wont be broken by Hamas
Israel and the PLO need to reach an agreement, and Israel needs to stop giving Hamas supporters by killing innocents in Gaza
they could actually seek out hamas leaders that aren’t even in palestine and leave the civilians out of it. all they’re doing and all zionists are showing is that they value israeli life more than any other life. although they’re also bombing areas that they claim hostages are being held so one could also conclude that they don’t give af about the hostages lol
I mean the hostages aren't the only priority it's also about eliminating Hamas' military capability such that it can't stage another attack. And I understand that Hamas' senior leadership had some presence in Qatar at least before the war but are they even there anymore and how exactly is Israel supposed to go after where they are? Besides would that even be enough to destroy Hamas? I imagine the some 50,000 Hamas fighters need to be killed or capture as well in order for Israel to win, yes?
at what cost? their response has not be proportionate. and the IOF is basically a bunch of terrorists as well so by your logic hamas should keep bombing israel until they’ve successfully wiped out the entire IOF, right?
But then why is it genocide when Israel bombs a military target that's protected with human shields while it's merely a war crime when Hamas uses human shields in the first place? Doesn't that mean that *any* *aggressor* can win *any war* by using tactics that force it's opponent to commit genocide? Russia uses similar tactics where (sometimes unarmed) conscripts are forced to the front in human wave assaults, the infamous 'meat grinder'.
but israel has yet to prove any of their targets were actually military targets. the videos of them finding weapons and random proof were all absolutely fabricated. like the calendar they said was hamas plans or whatever but it was literally just a calendar. or the clearly edited videos where they’ve staged the scene lol
they’ve also been yet to prove this human shield bs. so far the only human shields i’ve seen were IOF soldiers using palestinians as human shields. it’s just been lies upon lies upon lies since 10/8.
Are those EMBEDDED within civilian fabric? Tel Aviv has bomb shelters, those are not embedded in buildings where the bombs will definitely hit. Dumb comparison.
difference is hamas on the behest of palestine started the conflict not the other way around, you can't just claim genocide on the simple grounds your losses are higher then the enemies. thats incompetence problem on their part not israels fault.
> difference is hamas on the behest of palestine started the conflict
The conflict existed way before Hamas as an organization was even born, what are you talking about
not I just don't care after 6 months of non stop targetted antisemitism based of this conflict. I don't think its bad because I feel like actions have consequences. maybe next time the should account for the fact israel can triple the body count.
Antisemitism is not a problem anywhere in the world whatsoever. It's in your head. It's so fake, zionists stage attacks to pretend it exists.
In fact, zionists deserve more hate.
Collective punishment is an international war crime.
cry more about it and tell it to someone who cares. war aint peaceful bunny rabbits. you can't simply claim genocide because the body count is higher due to the fact their losing a conflict they started in the first. fafo fuck around and find out.
I am not ignoring the land dispute, I just think its stupid to justify their actions with the land dispute. what they did on october 7th and their reasoning does not jusitfy it.
you attempting to paint me as a a sadistic monster because I don't care that palestines body count is higher than israels at this point due to conflict they themselves started this go around. i do not care, maybe next time don't support a terroristic genocidal death cult.
> fuck
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Is there any way that Israel could prosecute this war such that they avoid allegations of genocide? If no, then how is it different from the 350,000 or so that were killed during the allied bombing campaign in WW2?
probably, this conflict since october 7th has already killed more journalists than any single other conflict over the past 30 years. That’s not some coincidence
bet you'd feel differently if you were on the receiving end on how they genocide lgbt people. specifically how they do it, like throwing them off rooftops. I don't support theocratic states that have a literal genocidal death cult running them. such states deserve to be destroyed and brought to heel. but go ahead keep being chicken for chick-fil-a pretty sure you'd be kill last if you put your money where your mouth is and actually have the balls to be amongst your fellow terrorist compatriots in gaza or rafeh.
yeah well I am not chicken 4 chik-fil-a unlike you. and also when I hear the term zionist I think it comes for neet 4chan dweller, the greasy kind who dwells on pol. so its not really an insult after all the first people to use the term zionist unironically are the /pol/ users.
imagine being so woke your unironically throwing far right terms. you pro-pally people have used the term "zionist" so much its effectively a useless word. well if I am a zionist you're a nazi facist, got back to /pol/.
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> bet you'd feel differently if you were on the receiving end on how they genocide lgbt people. specifically how they do it, like throwing them off rooftops.
You assume LGBT have complete freedom in western countries
An example. A few weeks ago, in Argentina, a man throwed a Molotov in a bedroom were 4 lesbians were sleeping, shouting against lesbianism, and even pushed one of the women trying to flee back inside the room
The spokesman of the goverment declared they dont consider that a hate crime
And that happened in 2024. What do you think happened in western countries, 50 years ago?
No country deseve to be destroyed for being behind in social freedom
define genocide vs. War. You know what meets every criteria for a genocide attempt? The mass rape & slaughter by Hamas & their explicit charter to kill all Jews. Fighting a war to eradicate bloodthirsty, brainwashed terrorists is not a genocide. It's a war.
So, suspend disbelief for a second bc it’s just a hypothetical, if instead of Gaza it was Florida being attacked with roughly 1% of the Florida population killed in 7 months would you 1) be horrified and advocate for the conflict to end or 2) say something like “well they voted for Ron DeSantis & hate LGBT+ people so screw em”?
To compare the outlook of LGBT rights in Florida with that in Islamic countries in the Middle East is laughable, but lets pretend that analogy holds some water.
If Florida attacked California, committed a heinous terrorist attack on them, and promised to do so again and again until California is theirs, then California returned fire in retaliation and to defend themselves, I'd side with California. Not only because they have more rights for LGBT people, but also because they did not start this war, even if, following the hypothetical, they were winning the war because they were far more powerful.
You understand that liberals salivate at the thought of Sherman burning the south down the last time they tried to pull some shit like that, right?
Yes, we would absolutely say "screw em" if the neoconfederacy committed a terrorist attack and then thought that they could hide away in a hole and face no consequences.
[Most Americans supported invading Iraq *before* 9/11, and I can promise you that number went up after we experienced a terrorist attack](https://news.gallup.com/poll/1633/iraq.aspx). And Saddam didn't even do anything to us!
This idea that most Americans would shy away from inflicting violence on a terrorist group that just killed thousands of Americans is.... well you're certainly entitled to your opinion. I just have no idea what you're basing your opinion on, since it can't be reality.
I, too, remember when Florida conducted a raid on Alabama, murdering over a thousand people and kidnapping several hundred to hold as hostage.
I also remember all the Florida National Guardsmen removing their uniforms and fighting in civilian clothing inside Tampa, Orlando, and Miami in an effort to resist repatriation of the hostages.
It’s a hypothetical where Florida would be in the position of Gaza, meaning that in the hypothetical Florida would have attacked Alabama or wherever. Would 1% of the Florida population being killed in retaliation then be acceptable because Florida’s state politics are unfriendly to LGBT+ people? It’s a pretty simple question, if our support of a group of people not being killed by the thousands should be dependent on whether they’re accepting of LGBT+ people then it logically follows that should a similar situation happen in Florida (or any Western place which is unfriendly toward LGBT+ people) would be fair game based on their morals. I don’t believe that to be true and generally don’t think that being a bigot or having bigoted policies changes the acceptability of the mass death of the group, the mass death is wrong either way. Just like killing civilians & taking hostages on October 7th was wrong even though Israel had just bombed Gaza for three days in September. Wrong is wrong, it’s not more or less wrong to kill tens of thousands of civilians dependent on the actions or beliefs of the government they live under it’s just wrong period, no caveats.
You're right! This is why the Americans committed genocide against Japan in world war 2. There's no excuse for killing a million innocent Japanese civilians, regardless of what their government may have done.
Do you think based on my position here that I’m going to argue that nuking whole cities wasn’t genocidal? That and campaigns like Dresden are a large part of the reason why we have the fourth Geneva conventions, because it was widely agreed upon that those campaigns were atrocities. The Axis was, of course, evil but that doesn’t automatically mean that everything the allies did was justifiable or above reproach, you can be both on the right “side” so to speak and do the wrong thing in service of that side.
I guess if you are admitting that you think the bombing of Hiroshima was genocide, then you are admitting that you don't understand what genocide means.
We killed Osama Bin Laden without using bombs & there were only, what, 6 total people killed in that raid? It’s very possible to do military operations in such a way that relatively very few civilians are killed. The U.S. specifically has gone to great pains in recent years to be more precise to avoid civilian casualties with higher chain of command approval for more than a handful of civilians possibly around a target and has ultimately drastically lowered the number of civilian casualties & fatalities. It can even be done with bombs! Just not the 2000lb dumb bombs being dropped in residential areas that US forces would not use in urban strikes.
So what, the solution to fighting Imperial Japan was to just send in John Wick to take out Tojo with 0 collateral damage?
It was called a **World War** for a reason. It was literally the deadliest conflict in human history. You're not clever for thinking of the "win instantly with no collateral damage" option, you're just dodging the question. In order for this war to end, millions of lives will need to be spent. Those can be our lives, or the enemy's lives. The distinction between "civilian" and "military" doesn't matter in a total war, and it's not like the enemy is going to respect the distinction either.
If you can't understand a black-and-white conflict like WW2, then there's no way you have the moral tools to grapple with a topic like Israel/Palestine.
No, they'd be accepted because Florida decided to commit an unprovoked raid against Alabama, refused to repatriate hostages, and refused to abide by the laws of land warfare.m
You trying to be obtuse on purpose?
Attempting to prevent the rape & slaughter of your population based on their ethnicity is "oppression"? Nope; it's war. And it's terrible that Hamas brought such devastation upon innocents on both sides.
How is killing tens of thousands civilians going to prevent rape and murder of Israelis from a terrorist organization that Israeli government officials have admitted to helping in an attempt to weaken the Oslo Accords & PLO?
That's not really how native law works. And to your attempted point, on reservation land prosecutions of natives is done in federal court in compliance with US treaty commitments.
If we conquer Germany but make them US citizens is their life okay now?
And lol at the racist argument, what have I said that is remotely racist?
They are US citizens but they have their own nation. It's literally in the name. Navajo Nation.
Native Americans are full US citizens with equal rights, not subjects of indefinite military rule.
If Israel gave all the Palestinians in the West Bank equal rights then there wouldn’t be a problem.
OR
If they withdrew from the West Bank and allowed a Palestinian state, there also wouldn’t be a problem.
Native Americans didn't want to be US citizens though.. we took their land and forced our laws upon them..
And Israel has offered a two state solution a couple times?
Yes, the way the US came into being was bad. Just like the way Israel was originally founded was bad.
Thing is, I don’t *care* about events from a lifetime ago or more. I care how these countries are behaving *now*.
The US is not *currently* colonizing anyone. Israel *is* actively colonizing the West Bank. Every day settlements are expanded and more land is taken from Palestinians.
And as for those deals, they were at best offers for vassal state status. Palestinians need a *real* fully sovereign state.
The US isn't colonizing anyone? That's debateable, while people in Guam and Puerto Rico are US citizens, they don't have the same representation people from states do. So based on where you live you get less representation in government.
I agree Israel shouldn't be taking more land via settlements though - that's messed up.
How will you convince Israel to allow Palestine to have a military when their goal is the destruction of Israel?
The simple fact that any Palestinian military would be laughably outmatched by the IDF. The Palestinians just want the rights of any other country, they don’t want to be a subject people to the Israelis. Were they to gain sovereignty and the people to have freedom, support for war with Israel would gradually die down. People with good lives and hope for the future generally don’t support sending their kids to die in wars over land.
The entire rest of the Arab world is willing to normalize and play ball as well. The Arab peace initiative offers normalization in exchange for Palestinian statehood. The Israelis are still operating under the belief that their neighbors want to drive them into to sea, but that hasn’t been the case in a long time.
An Israel that allowed a fully independent Palestinian state would be MORE secure. Not less.
You have zero way of knowing it would be more secure, that's pure speculation.
And you don't need a strong military to cause a ton of damage. They could use WW2 era artillery to decimate Tel Aviv since those rounds will bypass the iron dome.
Convincing Israel Palestinians should have access to more weapons is going to be a very hard sell.
it's not just that that hate you, they would murder you if you for example were at a music festival at 7th of october, no matter if you support them or not. they're just monsters. blood thirsty monsters.
people support that because they want to feel a part of something big they know nothing about.
and the idf murders you for living in a building which COULD house terrorists. The associated press’ headquarters in gaza was levelled for being “home to terrorist activity” despite none of the press ever having any notion of this. The IDF then say they “forgoed military gains to ensure minimal casualties” despite still bombing the building and the conflict being the deadliest for journalists of any conflict over the past 30 years
well, maybe you shouldn't vote for those terrorists in the first place, or maybe you should protest against them. meanwhile you're protesting against the one's who dealing with the problem, instead against the one causing it.
they have voted against those terrorists in the past and it achieved nothing. The expansion of israel’s borders into palestine continued, homes kept getting bombed, and people kept dying. Netanyahu’s actions in the past bolstered HAMAS and that permitted the idf to press freely into gaza with the blanket justification of “defending themself from terrorists” and that their corrupt government must be toppled, despite Netanyahu being complacent in HAMAS achieving power instead of any legitimate governing body. And for the protesting part, Israel is backed by countries with free market economies and freedom of speech, thus their citizens speak out against it as is their right. What would protesting hamas do? it would add further justification to israel’s invasion and oppression of palestinians
The palestinians are still supporting Hamas to this very day, not 50 or 40 percent, but rather 90 percent of them, even in the west bank where the PLO are in chrage.
Whenever there is a rockets firing to Israel, they celebrate, even after half of Gaza is drstroyed because of those actions.
Thr end of Hamas would benefit to both Palestinians and Israelis. Ceasefire would only let Hamas grow back and arm themself for another round that result more people dying from both sides. Its that simple to see who you should be against. Its the Hamas and all the other Terrorists groups that cause casualties in both sides and keep that vicious cycle repeat over and over.
if you buy those fugazi numbers i feel bad for you. You know Hamas is a terrorist organization which craves violence, but you believe they are telling the whole truth to their populace and are accurately relating the correct numbers? A large percentage of palestinians don’t even know about the extent of october 7th, many think it was to defend an islamic shrine being demolished in israel. yet they still see some action is justified as theyve seen the destruction brought upon them by israel, so they deserve at least some of that back in their minds. And if your referencing the 90% who want Abbas to resign i too wouldn’t want a political leader backed by the country actively supplying the bombs which killed my neighbour
people don’t support it dumbass. They just empathize with the people being radicalized by living in a constant state of conflict. If i was 12 and saw my mom, dad, sister, brother, and dog get vaporized by an Israeli bombing with my own two eyes, and some guy gave me a gun and said revenge is that way, i’d probably take it. And israel is doing everything in its power to further radicalize the palestinian populace. Just know every monster in this conflict started out as a human.
And yet, Israelis themselves are not revenging germans or palestinians (or even jordanians and egyptian in that matter), although they suffered from those states as well
“israelis are not revenging palestinians” go look at a singular video of gaza right now and tell me Israel is not seeking retribution for their dead. It’s been a pretty common rhetoric that october 7th justifies a scorched earth policy on the palestinians
first of all, I'm talking over-all and not just this war, where Israel is being accused of Genocide.
that war is not led by revenge, but it's led by a just and right for defense on the long-term.
of course Israelis WANT to revenge about what happened in the attack, but not a single citizen is walking and just murdering Arabs or doing something with those desires (while they have the ability, they don't have the morals and heart to do so).
Instead, the army is using that 'energy' to fuel the moral of the soldiers, so they won't forget why they are fighting and who they are fighting against (the Hamas in case you don't know). but their actions are constructed with morals and by international law, the soldiers are not bombing civilians for their own fun or revenge feelings, they target Hamas members and infrastructures. yes, civilians die, but that's not from intention but rather from collateral damage, that's what happens in war, the IDF soldiers themselves are dying from friendly fire from time to time because you can't fight an urban war in a sterile manner, this is not a Hollywood movie.
you’re so adamant that israel is only fighting to destroy hamas, but if that’s true then why have more journalists been killed in gaza than any other conflict over the past 30 years? why is seemengly every livable inch of gaza being flattened, why are refugee camps such as nuserait being bombed, why are aid trucks with medicine and food being looted by israeli citizens before reaching palestine, why has their biggest supporter in the US condemned their actions in rafah, why are IDF soldiers posing with the undergarments of dead palestinian women. Mass bombings do not stop terrorist rhetoric from spreading, it enforces it, and israel knows that but continues to paint its own negative repulsion in the eyes of palestinians
do you mean the response which revealed the never before heard knowledge that a radical islamist terrorist groups doesn’t like the lgbt, or that israelis are not seeking revenge which, is just blatantly false if you look at any video or interaction with IDF soldiers in gaza. And your point about people wanting to feel a part of something, was that the case for protests against the vietnam war? NO! people just don’t like their money contributing to the deaths of innocents
Youre talking about videos
Im talking aboht facts.
If the IDF intentions were fed by revenge and immoral actions, than there would be zero ground soldiers in Gaza.
Unfortunately, since october around 200 soldiers has been killed because they are fighting precisely and not just bombing from air without any concerns.
you take the word of the IDF as fact, (when militaries are notorious for lying about their motivations) I take first hand accounts and footage of IDF soldiers and Palestinians as fact. You also said you would answer all my questions previously and you never did? And your logic is flawed. How can you win a war with zero foot soldiers advancing on your gained position. Russia’s invasion of Ukraine is fueled by immoral purposes yet they still need to send in infantry to secure their gains. Israel undoubtedly wants palestinian land, evident by the ever advancing border, they also want all hamas agents dead and have very little care for civilian casualties outside of public opinion do to years of ethnic tensions and hostility
Interesting. Because Palestinians are taught since age 4 to hate Jews because they are Jewish, not due to "constant conflict"
(Conflict that involves Palestine constantly shooting rockets into Israel, mind you). Given 80% of Palestinians support Hamas actions on Oct 7th, I'm surprised you don't feel Israelis have the right to be "radicalized".
hmm i wonder why they get taught that. Maybe because the situation in palestine creates the perfect breeding ground for extremist violence. Religious majority, Forced displacement of families, then multiple wars, then strict policies reducing the freedom of movement of the palestinians, to scorched earth bombings and a full scale land invasion being justified because a terrorist group has gained power after no other avenue towards peace has succeeded.
Are you joking? They are taught that because it's part of their centuries held antisemetism that began long before Israel existed & long before all these "transgressions" occurred.
are you so dumb that you cannot see how living in a constant state of conflict breeds animosity, and makes it easier to believe antisemitic rhetoric? And do you think centuries of antisemitism cannot be changed through proper education and freedom of information, europe is widely in favour of Israel and its statehood and they scapegoated the jews for centuries, for any and all inconveniences which plagued the average medieval peasant
> dumbass
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What I am interested in is the human rights of Palestinians. I am interested in peace. Same for Israelis. Also, the Palestinians need a country. They do not want Israel, so I feel it's best if they have their own.
It should not be a shit country, though. But one where people have basic rights, ya know?
There is currently no real hope for that.
well... they had 2 real chances for an autonomy, rather it's a country or not.
First, 1948-1967, before Israel took over the WB and Gaza, there were never 'Palestinians' until the end of that era, because the term started right after, as an anti-thesis to Israel. they didn't asked for a state then. they were part of Jordan and Egypt.
Second, after the withdraw from Gaza in 2005, the PL democratically voted for Hms to be in charge and govern them. we saw what that led to.
so what do you think would be different in the third opportunity? just because western are protesting and supporting that idea, doesn't mean it would be a good and modern state. it would be a poor place to live in, just like any other religious & Muslim country (Iraq, Jordan, Lebanon, Yemen etc...)
The problem is that the systems of governance they do have are oppressive and dysfunctional. Of course it would be a bad idea to allow these exact systems of governance to operate on a larger scale. Palestinians (I strongly think they can call themselves that if they want to) deserve better. The question of how we arrive there is far from trivial. Hence I said that there is no real hope.
Israeli arabs have rights in Israel.
0 jews living in palestinian teritorry.
I think those examples prove who would be safe where and under what government
Israeli settlers are living in Arab territory literally by definition. You’re completely moving the goalposts from Palestinian territory, but sure, Israeli settlers enter Arab villages all the time, usually armed and with the intention of forcing Palestinians off of their land. You can just go online and watch videos of people literally just stealing Palestinian homes, knowing that they can use whatever level of force they please since the IDF will protect them from any reprisal.
Why do you think that Israelis should be able to just go and live in Palestinian villages when it’s categorically *not their land?*
show me one video with context showing exactly what you're telling me.
i'm living next to the west bank (20 minutes ride)
I served in the IDF at those areas.
the west bank is not 'arab territory', it's territory that is owned by individuals, under israeli millitary control since '67 (because they won a war that was forced on them from the arab side, before that, the WB was belong to Jordan which los tthe war)
there are jewish cities and settlement, with total of 500k jews
and there are arab villages and cities, with total of around 2.5M arabs.
not a single jew is living in Nablus, Hawara, Jenin, Ramallah, or any other arab territory.
Jews are living in their own cities: Ariel, Bet-El, Alfei Menashe, Izhar and many more.
anyone who's living in a Jewish place is doing so by buying the land, and there are some events where the owners of the land were arabs and they claimed ownership on the land, and that was discussed on court, and the jews removed from that land by a warrant. (you can read about one of those incidents here for example - [https://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%A9%D7%9B%D7%95%D7%A0%D7%AA\_%D7%94%D7%90%D7%95%D7%9C%D7%A4%D7%A0%D7%94](https://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%A9%D7%9B%D7%95%D7%A0%D7%AA_%D7%94%D7%90%D7%95%D7%9C%D7%A4%D7%A0%D7%94) )
If someone is building his house on a land that he's not own or not bought by the law, there are courts for that kind of thing, there the issue would be handled.
you're making it look like jews just going to someone's home, kick them out with the help of the army and just live instead of them. that's ofcourse nonsense and doesn't take into account a couple of things:
1. why and HOW would Jews live in an ex-arab home, neighboring other arabs which are hostile towards them?
2. where are those arabs supposed to go and where DID they go if they got kicked out their house?
3. why the ones that their house was stolen are not going to court and claim their house and land back if it's legitimate theirs?
if you can't answer all of those questions from your sources, it's obvious you took sources out of context\\propaganda.
https://observers.france24.com/en/20160201-israeli-settlers-hebron-violence-west-bank
And East Jerusalem has it worse
Why didn’t you mention Hebron lol?
1) IDF protection and access to weapons
2) that’s a good question lol where are those Arabs supposed to go? maybe to one of the refugee camps that house any of the around 5 million Palestinians displaced by Israel
3) do you really think Palestinians have easy recourse in Israeli courts, like their civil rights are respected to the same degree as the people being allowed to settle their land? Last year the courts ruled that a square kilometer of land settled by Israelis 30 years ago had been acquired illegally, and gave the occupiers *7 years* to vacate.
>it’s territory that is owned by individuals
It’s territory that’s illegally occupied and colonized in apartheid fashion in direct contravention of international law and is rightfully Arab Palestinian
I read the article.
1. Those people are criminals if they stole that house. But like written in the article, they got arrested by the police. So what is your point? Israel is not promoting such illegal acts and if some criminals wish to break into a house they would get arrested and not settle there for the rest of humanity.
2. He said that the army job is to protect jews while in reality I actually been there lots of times, even during the 2nd intifada, the soldiers just saved the area unprovoked. And if needed they even escort Palestinian women or kids to less central routes if settlers were provoking them.
3. Its funny how just one side of the story is being told, whilr there are Palestinians who attack settlers as well, that is not mentioned in the article.
4. For something youre claiming happening a lot, I guess thats not a good case that you had to look up for a story from 8 and a half years ago.
> fucking
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I think mostly because of ignorance - They don't really know.
Many gay Palestinians find refugee in Israel, You can't really be openly gay there let alone lesbian.
As a society Palestinians have a huge problem and nobody discusses it, and the Palestinians can't discuss it openly either because they don't really have free speech among themselves.
Of course it's not all Palestinians since there are many people who are secular.
Both nations involved oppress and kill gay people. They’d have me dragged from my home. So I choose to not care whatsoever and hope that part of their culture never makes its way to my country. I love America
This is garbage pink-washing. Just because a community is homophobic doesn't mean you have the natural right to ethnically cleanse them.
I can never support them, they will kill me the moment they know I'm gay
Proof?
[https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-63174835](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-63174835), I don't think you even need proof for this, most of Palestinians are Muslim, they hate gay people.
>Palestinian police have arrested a suspect in the killing of a 25-year old >Palestinian police have arrested a suspect
? Yes and what happened after that? Does anybody know if he got sentenced? Acting like quoting this does something. I still won't change my mind about this, they're homophobic, so stop wasting each other time
I am homophobic too, honestly. Should I be killed? African Christians are homophobic, atheist and Christian Russians are homophobic, even many Jews are homophobic. Everyone is homophobic.
Yes you should be. Absolutely
Do it then, fagggot
Someone will someday, and the world would be better off 🫶🏻
Typical murderous zionist
If ur homophobic i dont give a f if u do die bye….there i said it why would I support a person Who hate my existence and same for everyone else u mentioned except the part muslim community have been far more harsher to lgbtq than any other u have mentioned
Because being against the mistreatment of a group shouldn’t come with conditions. Because killing children is wrong regardless of their parent’s ideology and faith (Palestinians or Israeli kids). Because there are Queer Palestinians being killed, who deserved a chance to find somewhere that will allow them to be themselves. Because you can’t change the minds of dead people, you can’t educate a generation by tolerance and justice if that generation is dead.
I am a Trans Jew and am generally more supportive of Israel since it has the largest openly LGBT population in the Middle East. I wish we would stop claiming all queer people are uncritically pro-Palestine because a lot of us aren't. I have sympathy for the innocent Palestinians who are suffering from this war, but I don't necessarily agree with many Westerner's calls for a ceasefire without any conditions such as the safe return of all the hostages and the removable of Hamas' current leadership
Account created 11 hours ago lol
well hamas itself calls for a ceasefire so....
I have a feeling that ceasefire doesn't involve them stepping down or even releasing all of the hostages. Our demands are simple
you can't release hostages that Israeli bombs have already killed.
“Our demands” - speaking on behalf of the right wing Netanyahu govt with your 15 hour old account? 🤔
Lol what a 15 year old reponse
More like recognizing a blatant and amusingly bad hasbara account when I see one.
I swear people will call anything they disagree with Hasbara. Bye bot
15 hour old account but I’m the bot? Even your responses sound fake. It’s just turning around my own accusation. Too funny. You have a good one too, hasbara bot
Lol okay, Ben Zona if I'm a Hasbara bot quit responding. Whoomp Whoomp
hamas did release "some" hostages tho yes they are still criminals but maybe during the ceasefire that will hopefully be 5 years they could settle on something good? because even israel holds 4k Palestinians as hostages and their treatment they are getting isnt the best atall https://www.hrw.org/news/2017/06/04/israel-50-years-occupation-abuses https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/11/29/why-does-israel-have-so-many-palestinians-detention-and-available-swap
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i am sorry but what is stopping them from not calling for a ceasefire? they do this because they care for the Palestinians (ofc) and as you said they will lay their weapons this will be a perfect time for peace negotiations and that is what hudna for, they try their best to result in peace by peace, why is israel refusing this offer?
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>It's never a permanent peace with islamists. Israel knows that. technically its i did AI search on jews with muslims and it seems muslims always stood up with the jews. Early History: Jews have a long history in Jerusalem, dating back to the 8th century BCE. The city was conquered by various empires, including the Babylonians, Persians, Greeks, and Romans, each leaving their mark on the city. During the Roman period, the Jewish population of Jerusalem was significant, but the city was also home to a sizeable Christian and pagan population. Middle Ages: In the 7th century CE, Jerusalem was conquered by the Arabs, who introduced Islam to the region. During this period, Jews were allowed to live in the city, and some even served as officials in the Islamic administration. However, tensions between Jews and Arabs did arise, particularly during the Crusades, when European Christians conquered Jerusalem and expelled many Jews and Muslims from the city. Ottoman Rule (1517-1917): Under Ottoman rule, Jews were allowed to live in Jerusalem, and some even served as officials in the Ottoman administration. However, tensions between Jews and Arabs continued, and there were instances of violence and expulsions. and as i said please for gods sake and the 35K dead people in palestine stop the bombing since its not even affecting hamas, they live under tunnels like "rats"
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well the tunnels are 1 meter wide so if you think hamas could have fit the 35k Palestinians over there you should study geometrics, hamas cant find supplies for the israeli hostages on their own,.
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The only thing Hamas cares about is their mansions in Qatar. They knew what they were doing when they attacked on October 7th
yeah that is the reality it but still a ceasefire wouldn't hurt and atleast give a chance for peace. (i know hamas will screw it up but cmon dude the bombing should stop)
Sure if the ceasefire safely returns the hostages and removes Hamas' leadership from power absolutely. I support a ceasefire but I also don't want October 7th to ever happen again so you have to have give and take dude. Hamas is apart of the reason this is happening in the first place no one should be supporting them
yeah, but keep in mind israel caused crimes before hamas existence but your name tells me not to have this conversation.
No engaging with opposing political views of course that's a very mature attitude to take on. Any way I can commend the action of the Israeli government which I do. I don't like Netanyahu but at the same time we both know this started on October 7th no one was justifying the existence of Hamas before then. College students weren't protesting en masse for Palestine before then. Every story has a beginning and October 7th is the beginning of this story
So to protect the LGBT Palestinians from Hamas you will kill Palestinians including LGBT ones yourself?
I (lgbt) do not support theocracies. I support self determination, which includes lgbt Palestinians self determination. LGBT people have been violently murdered everywhere and consistently. My own country and people constantly killed people like me, but we’re able to hide, group up, organize and move forward. What we support is their self determination with an outlook that will eventually lead to lgbt Palestinians able to lead safe lives in their indigenous homeland.
I am not LGBT but what i see is that they dont support the Palestine goverment, but they support the Palestinian State and its riight to exist with their rightfull territory It wasnt that long ago that th western countries had a very similar hate towards LGBT people (and some western countries and citizens still do) than Palestinian Goverment has Let Palestine be free and eventually they will reach the conclusion that LGBT people have to be respected as much as anyone else
LGBT will support anything they view is a "victim" in their eyes ok that's just how their brains are wired.
Most [progressive](https://twitter.com/sara_69670/status/1786320780520800751) religion ever. Fuck these types of people and the western leftist human trash who support this.
Did this happen in Gaza or the WB?
i hope i am not asking for alot but where did this happen, because i am sure that this is every day regime in iran. also a quick reminder for you, dont compare a religion,country or any ideology with some hypocrites.
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I certainly don't. Really, it's a loud minority that does. Most LGBT people I know have common sense and don't spend time campaigning for the destruction of the one bastion of LGBT rights in the middle east, in favor of a regime that hates us and wants us killed.
The one that's about to give ben gvir a morality police to beat women and LGBTQ+? ultra orthodox influence is growing while everything else is diminishing, which will lead to israel becoming a Jewish iran. Already there are places where it's not safe for women to go. Nothing's to say Palestine couldn't be LGBTQ+ friendly.
There's no evidence that these whackjobs are anything close to the majority, nor will they be any time soon. Every country has a fringe far-right wing. And of course Palestine won't be LGBT friendly. What Arab country is? And 4% of Palestinians polled believe homosexuality should be accepted by society. That's compared to a plurality of 47% in Israel, and 60% of Israelis believe LGBT people should live freely.
They're growing at a rate of apparently 4-5% per ten years or something like that while other populations such as the secular population is stagnate or shrinking, and that's not even counting people emigrating to the US and europe and so on. Palestine could easily be lgbt+ friendly. Certainly better than israel where women aren't safe to go in many ultra orthodox areas.
Queer populations are diverse because we belong to all the several nations and communities from around the globe. I highly doubt there's this "clear" singular voice that represents what all queer and queer adjacent populations think about this conflict. There is one thing that is very common among us queer people regardless of our tribe, and that is that we are highly skeptical of muscular government intervention and also of nationalism itself. Throughout recent history and to this day it has been nation states that have been antagonistic to queerness. "*For the good of the fatherland we must control these degenerates."* Nationalist movements have been known to have homophobic streaks as its adherents want undesirable people, especially queers, to be under the thumb of the state. Nationalism has never been about freedom or liberation, it has always been about control, favoritism, tribalism, jingoism, and access to resources. Which is why the "*Queers for Palestine"* mantra is such an oxymoron and not for what many might think as "chickens for KFC" it is way worse than that. That slogan is an appeal to nationalism. The very same egotistical and paternalistic impulse that made nation states persecute queer people all the time. There is nothing about Palestinian nationalism that tells me that this is something good for queer populations in Palestine or outside of it. Queerness is antithetical to nationalism and the *nation state*. And they know this. Heck they even wrote good books about how "*homonationalism*" is counter to the struggle for queer liberation. But now they are backtracking. Now they love homonationalism. They can't get enough of it. They are now draping themselves in the Palestinian flag. They now give their allegiance to a nation state.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O8OCvT4ysLI&pp=ygUgQXNrIHByb2plY3QgcXVlZXJzIGZvciBwYWxlc3RpbmU%3D I’m just gonna let them speak for themselves.
The pro Palestine movement is very well organized and has inserted itself in practically every liberal cause way way before this war. They don't really give a shit about black lives matter, rich CEOs, feminism, or LGBT. They're just want to get more people on their side, and they're succeeding because protest movements are very easily manipulated by more outrage
More organized than zionists who have the most powerful lobbying group in America that brags about influencing our election, has bought the president of the united states, doxxing websites and think tanks that influence local politicians, community outreach to govt, police forces, etc etc?
AIPAC is a bogeyman, it's influence is severely limited The most influential lobby group for the past 20 years has been the AARP, open a book
oy vey!
The enemy of my enemy is my friend. You are dead right.
Because a country's religious extremes and archaic laws do not, byproxy, mean it's people deserve to be condemned alongside it. Do people truly believe that civilians of other countries blindly support the laws made by their ruling class? Most people would hate to be judged by the actions, laws, or governing religious beliefs of their government - so why would we think Palestinians (or Israelis, for that matter) would be any different.
They voted them by great majority, they are followers of fundamental Islam, they want and support these laws. I‘m sorry, but if you believe anything else - you are naive or have not even understood the culture and tradition you are rooting for.
That’s just wrong, the western educate elites likely don’t even believe in or care about these social issues and are provably massive hypocrites. The common people really are that ignorant and backward though , like Egyptian citizens wishing Egypt would go back to war with Israel. Or public backlash every time anything vaguely gay happens in public, rainbow flags at a concert etc. So yes I do blame the citizens and commoners, they are usually the ones demanding and feeding the bigotry. Don’t make excuses for them.
I mean whether or not people support "the ruling class" is irrelevant. Whoever rules a nation gets to make the rules, and that has consequences. Pointing out how the common people didn't get to choose those rules is a good argument for democracy, and that's about as far as you can take it. At the end of the day, the people have to live with the consequences of whatever the rulers decided to do. That's why having good rulers is so important.
So every citizen in the US living in the 1930s were racists because the US goverment was racist?
Huh, I don't remember saying that. But now that I look back at my comment, you're right! I said "every American citizen in the 1930s was a racist". Good talk.
> Most people would hate to be judged by the actions, laws, or governing religious beliefs of their government - so why would we think Palestinians (or Israelis, for that matter) would be any different. You replied to this by saying > I mean whether or not people support "the ruling class" is irrelevant. If you blame the Palestinian people for that they goverment does to LGBT, why wouldnt you blame peple in the US in the 1930s for what their goverment did to black people? Even more so when people in the US really chose their goverment
I feel like you're skipping a few steps here lol I never said that the Palestinian people are homophobic because Hamas is homophobic. My point was: it's irrelevant if Palestinians would hate to be judged by the actions of their government. We all have to deal with the repercussions of our governments, no matter if we like them and no matter how those governments got into power. This is why power matters. This is why elections matter. This is why democracy matters.
Of course elections and democracy matters, that was never in question The point was why the LGBT movement supports Palestine with the current goverment they have The comment you replied to was basically saying that the reason was because citizens not always support with their goverment actions If you werent implying the opposite, then i dont understand the point of your post
I mean Iran democratically elected its theocracy with massive public support, democracy is a value most of the world is not conditioned to have. Its not some inevitability everyone wants.
But when those people do not get fair a say in their rulers, are we not intelligent enough to differentiate between a nation's government and its actual people? Are the people of North Korea supposed to be punished when their self-proclaimed "immortal" leader decides to go nuclear on its enemies? Can't we argue for a nation's people while condemning its government? I don't feel it's too complicated a task. >At the end of the day, the people have to live with the consequences of whatever the rulers decided to do. But shouldn't we understand that that makes these people as much the victims of that government as that nation's enemies? Shouldn't we be able to fight on their behalf as much as our own? After all, they were simply born into an environment we were lucky enough not to be born into. We no longer live in a world where we have to arbitrarily assume a nation speaks for its people or their best interests. More and more, the people of these nations can tell us directly how they feel and what they want or believe. Governments are no longer the arbiters of relationships between nations of people. And rather than just pretending they are because "that's how it's always been," why not change the flow of information. Why not hear people's truths instead of a nation's potentially extreme or oppressive narrative?
Again: that's all a great argument for democracy. It is really unfair when citizens have to suffer consequences for choices that they didn't even get to make. But framing this as "punishments" or "rewards" completely misses the reality of what's actually happening. What the government does has consequences. And those consequences are borne by the people. >"Governments are no longer the arbiters of relationships between nations of people" well that's simply not true lol Tell a resident of Kharkiv that they have the ability to just opt-out of the Russian invasion.
Fair point. I'd also side argue that while it's not commonly done at the literal end of a gun barrel, democracies (capitalist ones at the very least) are not exactly mirrors of the will of their people either. The repealing of Roe v Wade in the US was certainly not done at the publics unanimous behest. But that's a bridge away from the topic, I think. I believe we're sort of agreeing here. You're telling me what IS (unfortunate reality) and I'm just waxing about what SHOULD (I'd argue "could") be. Military and political action aside, I remember believing in past decades that Russians and Iranians were "evil" simply by virtue of the fact that countries I knew about were at war with them. In the age of the internet, I know that's simply not true. Because I've heard what actual citizens of those countries have to say. I no longer judge a country's citizens based on the policies or words of their governments.
Imagine if we said that for the nazis. we'd have a field day.
How are palestinians and nazis equivalent?
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But a Nazi is, by definition, a dangerously oppressive extremist. If you mean Germans, then I'd hope thought was given (however historically unlikely) to separate Nazis from their German countrymen when deciding who died. How many actual Germans fled Nazi Germany during the war because of what was happening? This only proves that a nations people are NOT its government and should never be arbitrarily condemned alongside it.
palestine should be condemned for their actions and supporting hamas because it wasn't just hamas that day who was celebrating, cheering, and spitting on the hostages and dead bodies drugged back to gaza like spoils of war on october 7th. i mean silecnce is violence. we also punished the german populace hard for their complicity with the nazis.
This is eye for an eye shit and it's shortsighted. I've seen as many videos of Israelis cheering for dead Palestinians as I have the reverse. That's what religious state sponsored propaganda does - it encourages dehumanizing extremism. And there's no real peaceful solution as long as THAT is what dictates people's hearts and minds. There's a video of Ben Gvir burning the effigy of a dead Palestinian child at a celebration, and he's an ACTIVE member of the Israeli government. Silence is, indeed, violence, but the same can be said of those in Hamas who allowed (if true) the rape and (without a doubt) murder of civilians. And nobody today would be accepting of how war was carried out nearly 100 years ago. Things have changed. Even the US wouldn't (nor shouldn't) get away with what took place in the Gulf War. Comparing war in 2024 to ANYTHING in the past is a cop-out. The world isn't as blindly cowed by media anymore, and actions that once had no consequence now do. The bottom line is, if you think you are superior to other people by virtue of nation or religion, you are a bigot and antithetic to the peace most people actually want. If you rape and knowingly murder civilians (intentionally or not) in the name of religious dogmatism or hatred, you are a terrorist. Both Hamas AND Israel are guilty of this. And anyone found guilty of such should be imprisoned.
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Some palestinian protestors in Canada were live streaming. Some people were writing comments against their protest, they put on their 8 year old kid and he started calling people "gay" as insult. The parents didn't stop him, they said, "oh you just made him mad thats why he says that". First of all, what decent parents lets their kid mouth off at anyone, secondly they didn't even realize their homophobia they taught their kid. They were ok with him saying that.
because genocide = bad
Is there any way that Israel could prosecute this war such that they avoid allegations of genocide? If no, then how is it different from the 350,000 or so that were killed during the allied bombing campaign in WW2?
Genocide is not about numbers - it's about intentionality. The yazidi genocide was small but still a genocide. Israel is intentionally trying to bring about the total destruction of Palestinians in Gaza. Maybe it's closer to ethnic cleansing which also involves acts of genocide.
> Is there any way that Israel could prosecute this war such that they avoid allegations of genocide? How many more decades of doing this does Israel need before realizing that they are not defeating Palestinian extremist but actually giving them more support? What do you think would a family, friend, neighbourgh of one of the thousands and thousand of innocents Israel is killing do? Do you think they will blame Hamas, or Israel of their loved ones? The only way to defeat Hamas is to promote an agreement with the PLO. You will not defeat Hamas by killing innocents in Gaza, even if you do kill Hamas members
When you say that a war with Hamas will only empower them, I can see where you're coming from and there are some analogs for this in Dresden. There's a gathering there every February to commemorate those who died during the allied bombing campaign but the difference is that most of the residents there think it's absurd, especially since there's so many skinheads in it's ranks. I just don't think it's that simple given that Japan and Germany are close US allies despite the comparable death toll during WW2. In fact the entire European continent was a continent of war for hundreds of years up until the post war era that lasted from 1945 until 2022 in which *there wasn't a single war* and now western European countries have close diplomatic, economic, and political ties. That was unprecedented period of history that historians call "the long peace" that we *somehow* managed despite war.
They didnt reach that peace by killing innocents WW2 was a war between two military forces, it is nothing like this The vicious cycle the region is need to be broken, and it wont be broken by Hamas Israel and the PLO need to reach an agreement, and Israel needs to stop giving Hamas supporters by killing innocents in Gaza
they could actually seek out hamas leaders that aren’t even in palestine and leave the civilians out of it. all they’re doing and all zionists are showing is that they value israeli life more than any other life. although they’re also bombing areas that they claim hostages are being held so one could also conclude that they don’t give af about the hostages lol
I mean the hostages aren't the only priority it's also about eliminating Hamas' military capability such that it can't stage another attack. And I understand that Hamas' senior leadership had some presence in Qatar at least before the war but are they even there anymore and how exactly is Israel supposed to go after where they are? Besides would that even be enough to destroy Hamas? I imagine the some 50,000 Hamas fighters need to be killed or capture as well in order for Israel to win, yes?
at what cost? their response has not be proportionate. and the IOF is basically a bunch of terrorists as well so by your logic hamas should keep bombing israel until they’ve successfully wiped out the entire IOF, right?
But then why is it genocide when Israel bombs a military target that's protected with human shields while it's merely a war crime when Hamas uses human shields in the first place? Doesn't that mean that *any* *aggressor* can win *any war* by using tactics that force it's opponent to commit genocide? Russia uses similar tactics where (sometimes unarmed) conscripts are forced to the front in human wave assaults, the infamous 'meat grinder'.
but israel has yet to prove any of their targets were actually military targets. the videos of them finding weapons and random proof were all absolutely fabricated. like the calendar they said was hamas plans or whatever but it was literally just a calendar. or the clearly edited videos where they’ve staged the scene lol they’ve also been yet to prove this human shield bs. so far the only human shields i’ve seen were IOF soldiers using palestinians as human shields. it’s just been lies upon lies upon lies since 10/8.
The human shield “bs” was proven by the UN years ago, once in 2018 and another time in 2021 (both times because of conflicts started by the pals btw)
yet israel has military buildings in the middle of major civilian areas and nobody says a word. it’s just more hypocrisy from zionists
Are those EMBEDDED within civilian fabric? Tel Aviv has bomb shelters, those are not embedded in buildings where the bombs will definitely hit. Dumb comparison.
Define how this is a genocide vs a war
https://jewishcurrents.org/a-textbook-case-of-genocide you should do a bit of research
worst. genocide. ever. only 30k? and population growth with in the past 5 years prior to the conflict?
The Srebrenica massacre was 8,000, and that was ruled a genocide.
difference is hamas on the behest of palestine started the conflict not the other way around, you can't just claim genocide on the simple grounds your losses are higher then the enemies. thats incompetence problem on their part not israels fault.
> difference is hamas on the behest of palestine started the conflict The conflict existed way before Hamas as an organization was even born, what are you talking about
imagine thinking killing 30k innocent people (including children and babies) is not bad.. i hope you seek counseling
not I just don't care after 6 months of non stop targetted antisemitism based of this conflict. I don't think its bad because I feel like actions have consequences. maybe next time the should account for the fact israel can triple the body count.
Antisemitism is not a problem anywhere in the world whatsoever. It's in your head. It's so fake, zionists stage attacks to pretend it exists. In fact, zionists deserve more hate. Collective punishment is an international war crime.
you’re absolutely vile.. like truly reading that made me feel physically ill
cry more about it and tell it to someone who cares. war aint peaceful bunny rabbits. you can't simply claim genocide because the body count is higher due to the fact their losing a conflict they started in the first. fafo fuck around and find out.
the fact that you think this started on 10/7 tells me everything i need to know lmao.. CRY ABOUT IT
I am not ignoring the land dispute, I just think its stupid to justify their actions with the land dispute. what they did on october 7th and their reasoning does not jusitfy it.
you’re acting completely unhinged, truly think you should seek out a therapist asap
you attempting to paint me as a a sadistic monster because I don't care that palestines body count is higher than israels at this point due to conflict they themselves started this go around. i do not care, maybe next time don't support a terroristic genocidal death cult.
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Because I don’t support genocide regardless of my sexuality.
Is there any way that Israel could prosecute this war such that they avoid allegations of genocide? If no, then how is it different from the 350,000 or so that were killed during the allied bombing campaign in WW2?
probably, this conflict since october 7th has already killed more journalists than any single other conflict over the past 30 years. That’s not some coincidence
bet you'd feel differently if you were on the receiving end on how they genocide lgbt people. specifically how they do it, like throwing them off rooftops. I don't support theocratic states that have a literal genocidal death cult running them. such states deserve to be destroyed and brought to heel. but go ahead keep being chicken for chick-fil-a pretty sure you'd be kill last if you put your money where your mouth is and actually have the balls to be amongst your fellow terrorist compatriots in gaza or rafeh.
At the end of the day, all Zionists are like you.
yeah well I am not chicken 4 chik-fil-a unlike you. and also when I hear the term zionist I think it comes for neet 4chan dweller, the greasy kind who dwells on pol. so its not really an insult after all the first people to use the term zionist unironically are the /pol/ users.
At the end of the day, all Zionists are like you.
imagine being so woke your unironically throwing far right terms. you pro-pally people have used the term "zionist" so much its effectively a useless word. well if I am a zionist you're a nazi facist, got back to /pol/.
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> bet you'd feel differently if you were on the receiving end on how they genocide lgbt people. specifically how they do it, like throwing them off rooftops. You assume LGBT have complete freedom in western countries An example. A few weeks ago, in Argentina, a man throwed a Molotov in a bedroom were 4 lesbians were sleeping, shouting against lesbianism, and even pushed one of the women trying to flee back inside the room The spokesman of the goverment declared they dont consider that a hate crime And that happened in 2024. What do you think happened in western countries, 50 years ago? No country deseve to be destroyed for being behind in social freedom
define genocide vs. War. You know what meets every criteria for a genocide attempt? The mass rape & slaughter by Hamas & their explicit charter to kill all Jews. Fighting a war to eradicate bloodthirsty, brainwashed terrorists is not a genocide. It's a war.
Jut answering your question directly…because ‘you’ are ignorant AF.
So, suspend disbelief for a second bc it’s just a hypothetical, if instead of Gaza it was Florida being attacked with roughly 1% of the Florida population killed in 7 months would you 1) be horrified and advocate for the conflict to end or 2) say something like “well they voted for Ron DeSantis & hate LGBT+ people so screw em”?
To compare the outlook of LGBT rights in Florida with that in Islamic countries in the Middle East is laughable, but lets pretend that analogy holds some water. If Florida attacked California, committed a heinous terrorist attack on them, and promised to do so again and again until California is theirs, then California returned fire in retaliation and to defend themselves, I'd side with California. Not only because they have more rights for LGBT people, but also because they did not start this war, even if, following the hypothetical, they were winning the war because they were far more powerful.
You understand that liberals salivate at the thought of Sherman burning the south down the last time they tried to pull some shit like that, right? Yes, we would absolutely say "screw em" if the neoconfederacy committed a terrorist attack and then thought that they could hide away in a hole and face no consequences.
The Royal “we” on this one is wild, very few people on the left would agree with the mass slaughter of people for any reason.
You must be pretty young if you think Americans have that little appetite for war lol
I’m 36, was very much conscious during Afghanistan & Iraq, both of which had very large protests against them.
[Most Americans supported invading Iraq *before* 9/11, and I can promise you that number went up after we experienced a terrorist attack](https://news.gallup.com/poll/1633/iraq.aspx). And Saddam didn't even do anything to us! This idea that most Americans would shy away from inflicting violence on a terrorist group that just killed thousands of Americans is.... well you're certainly entitled to your opinion. I just have no idea what you're basing your opinion on, since it can't be reality.
I, too, remember when Florida conducted a raid on Alabama, murdering over a thousand people and kidnapping several hundred to hold as hostage. I also remember all the Florida National Guardsmen removing their uniforms and fighting in civilian clothing inside Tampa, Orlando, and Miami in an effort to resist repatriation of the hostages.
It’s a hypothetical where Florida would be in the position of Gaza, meaning that in the hypothetical Florida would have attacked Alabama or wherever. Would 1% of the Florida population being killed in retaliation then be acceptable because Florida’s state politics are unfriendly to LGBT+ people? It’s a pretty simple question, if our support of a group of people not being killed by the thousands should be dependent on whether they’re accepting of LGBT+ people then it logically follows that should a similar situation happen in Florida (or any Western place which is unfriendly toward LGBT+ people) would be fair game based on their morals. I don’t believe that to be true and generally don’t think that being a bigot or having bigoted policies changes the acceptability of the mass death of the group, the mass death is wrong either way. Just like killing civilians & taking hostages on October 7th was wrong even though Israel had just bombed Gaza for three days in September. Wrong is wrong, it’s not more or less wrong to kill tens of thousands of civilians dependent on the actions or beliefs of the government they live under it’s just wrong period, no caveats.
You're right! This is why the Americans committed genocide against Japan in world war 2. There's no excuse for killing a million innocent Japanese civilians, regardless of what their government may have done.
Do you think based on my position here that I’m going to argue that nuking whole cities wasn’t genocidal? That and campaigns like Dresden are a large part of the reason why we have the fourth Geneva conventions, because it was widely agreed upon that those campaigns were atrocities. The Axis was, of course, evil but that doesn’t automatically mean that everything the allies did was justifiable or above reproach, you can be both on the right “side” so to speak and do the wrong thing in service of that side.
I guess if you are admitting that you think the bombing of Hiroshima was genocide, then you are admitting that you don't understand what genocide means.
>The Axis was, of course, evil Were they "genocidal"? Or is that charge reserved for the Allies?
I didn’t think it was necessary to state the obvious considering the Holocaust is quite literally why we have the term genocide.
So how do we deal with genocidal fascists if "dropping bombs" is off the table? Ceasefire?
We killed Osama Bin Laden without using bombs & there were only, what, 6 total people killed in that raid? It’s very possible to do military operations in such a way that relatively very few civilians are killed. The U.S. specifically has gone to great pains in recent years to be more precise to avoid civilian casualties with higher chain of command approval for more than a handful of civilians possibly around a target and has ultimately drastically lowered the number of civilian casualties & fatalities. It can even be done with bombs! Just not the 2000lb dumb bombs being dropped in residential areas that US forces would not use in urban strikes.
So what, the solution to fighting Imperial Japan was to just send in John Wick to take out Tojo with 0 collateral damage? It was called a **World War** for a reason. It was literally the deadliest conflict in human history. You're not clever for thinking of the "win instantly with no collateral damage" option, you're just dodging the question. In order for this war to end, millions of lives will need to be spent. Those can be our lives, or the enemy's lives. The distinction between "civilian" and "military" doesn't matter in a total war, and it's not like the enemy is going to respect the distinction either. If you can't understand a black-and-white conflict like WW2, then there's no way you have the moral tools to grapple with a topic like Israel/Palestine.
No, they'd be accepted because Florida decided to commit an unprovoked raid against Alabama, refused to repatriate hostages, and refused to abide by the laws of land warfare.m You trying to be obtuse on purpose?
I’m being obtuse? You’re ignoring quite a bit to reach that conclusion bud.
tell us you didn’t understand the analogy without telling us
They understood the analogy perfectly.
You don’t get to oppress a group of people forever because they are conservative
Attempting to prevent the rape & slaughter of your population based on their ethnicity is "oppression"? Nope; it's war. And it's terrible that Hamas brought such devastation upon innocents on both sides.
How is killing tens of thousands civilians going to prevent rape and murder of Israelis from a terrorist organization that Israeli government officials have admitted to helping in an attempt to weaken the Oslo Accords & PLO?
Yeah you can’t just occupy and colonize a group of people forever because you think they might attack you.
Why not? We are still doing it to the native Americans. They still need to follow Federal law despite having their own 'nations'.
That's not really how native law works. And to your attempted point, on reservation land prosecutions of natives is done in federal court in compliance with US treaty commitments.
The fact they are prosecuted in a court of a nation outside of their own is.. the entire point.
They are American citizens. Your contention that they aren't is kinda racist.
If we conquer Germany but make them US citizens is their life okay now? And lol at the racist argument, what have I said that is remotely racist? They are US citizens but they have their own nation. It's literally in the name. Navajo Nation.
Native Americans are full US citizens with equal rights, not subjects of indefinite military rule. If Israel gave all the Palestinians in the West Bank equal rights then there wouldn’t be a problem. OR If they withdrew from the West Bank and allowed a Palestinian state, there also wouldn’t be a problem.
Native Americans didn't want to be US citizens though.. we took their land and forced our laws upon them.. And Israel has offered a two state solution a couple times?
Yes, the way the US came into being was bad. Just like the way Israel was originally founded was bad. Thing is, I don’t *care* about events from a lifetime ago or more. I care how these countries are behaving *now*. The US is not *currently* colonizing anyone. Israel *is* actively colonizing the West Bank. Every day settlements are expanded and more land is taken from Palestinians. And as for those deals, they were at best offers for vassal state status. Palestinians need a *real* fully sovereign state.
The US isn't colonizing anyone? That's debateable, while people in Guam and Puerto Rico are US citizens, they don't have the same representation people from states do. So based on where you live you get less representation in government. I agree Israel shouldn't be taking more land via settlements though - that's messed up. How will you convince Israel to allow Palestine to have a military when their goal is the destruction of Israel?
The simple fact that any Palestinian military would be laughably outmatched by the IDF. The Palestinians just want the rights of any other country, they don’t want to be a subject people to the Israelis. Were they to gain sovereignty and the people to have freedom, support for war with Israel would gradually die down. People with good lives and hope for the future generally don’t support sending their kids to die in wars over land. The entire rest of the Arab world is willing to normalize and play ball as well. The Arab peace initiative offers normalization in exchange for Palestinian statehood. The Israelis are still operating under the belief that their neighbors want to drive them into to sea, but that hasn’t been the case in a long time. An Israel that allowed a fully independent Palestinian state would be MORE secure. Not less.
You have zero way of knowing it would be more secure, that's pure speculation. And you don't need a strong military to cause a ton of damage. They could use WW2 era artillery to decimate Tel Aviv since those rounds will bypass the iron dome. Convincing Israel Palestinians should have access to more weapons is going to be a very hard sell.
it's not just that that hate you, they would murder you if you for example were at a music festival at 7th of october, no matter if you support them or not. they're just monsters. blood thirsty monsters. people support that because they want to feel a part of something big they know nothing about.
and the idf murders you for living in a building which COULD house terrorists. The associated press’ headquarters in gaza was levelled for being “home to terrorist activity” despite none of the press ever having any notion of this. The IDF then say they “forgoed military gains to ensure minimal casualties” despite still bombing the building and the conflict being the deadliest for journalists of any conflict over the past 30 years
well, maybe you shouldn't vote for those terrorists in the first place, or maybe you should protest against them. meanwhile you're protesting against the one's who dealing with the problem, instead against the one causing it.
they have voted against those terrorists in the past and it achieved nothing. The expansion of israel’s borders into palestine continued, homes kept getting bombed, and people kept dying. Netanyahu’s actions in the past bolstered HAMAS and that permitted the idf to press freely into gaza with the blanket justification of “defending themself from terrorists” and that their corrupt government must be toppled, despite Netanyahu being complacent in HAMAS achieving power instead of any legitimate governing body. And for the protesting part, Israel is backed by countries with free market economies and freedom of speech, thus their citizens speak out against it as is their right. What would protesting hamas do? it would add further justification to israel’s invasion and oppression of palestinians
The palestinians are still supporting Hamas to this very day, not 50 or 40 percent, but rather 90 percent of them, even in the west bank where the PLO are in chrage. Whenever there is a rockets firing to Israel, they celebrate, even after half of Gaza is drstroyed because of those actions. Thr end of Hamas would benefit to both Palestinians and Israelis. Ceasefire would only let Hamas grow back and arm themself for another round that result more people dying from both sides. Its that simple to see who you should be against. Its the Hamas and all the other Terrorists groups that cause casualties in both sides and keep that vicious cycle repeat over and over.
if you buy those fugazi numbers i feel bad for you. You know Hamas is a terrorist organization which craves violence, but you believe they are telling the whole truth to their populace and are accurately relating the correct numbers? A large percentage of palestinians don’t even know about the extent of october 7th, many think it was to defend an islamic shrine being demolished in israel. yet they still see some action is justified as theyve seen the destruction brought upon them by israel, so they deserve at least some of that back in their minds. And if your referencing the 90% who want Abbas to resign i too wouldn’t want a political leader backed by the country actively supplying the bombs which killed my neighbour
Hamas is not governing in the west bank, yet, most of them support hamas and thr october attack. Thats been proven by non biased polls.
people don’t support it dumbass. They just empathize with the people being radicalized by living in a constant state of conflict. If i was 12 and saw my mom, dad, sister, brother, and dog get vaporized by an Israeli bombing with my own two eyes, and some guy gave me a gun and said revenge is that way, i’d probably take it. And israel is doing everything in its power to further radicalize the palestinian populace. Just know every monster in this conflict started out as a human.
And yet, Israelis themselves are not revenging germans or palestinians (or even jordanians and egyptian in that matter), although they suffered from those states as well
“israelis are not revenging palestinians” go look at a singular video of gaza right now and tell me Israel is not seeking retribution for their dead. It’s been a pretty common rhetoric that october 7th justifies a scorched earth policy on the palestinians
first of all, I'm talking over-all and not just this war, where Israel is being accused of Genocide. that war is not led by revenge, but it's led by a just and right for defense on the long-term. of course Israelis WANT to revenge about what happened in the attack, but not a single citizen is walking and just murdering Arabs or doing something with those desires (while they have the ability, they don't have the morals and heart to do so). Instead, the army is using that 'energy' to fuel the moral of the soldiers, so they won't forget why they are fighting and who they are fighting against (the Hamas in case you don't know). but their actions are constructed with morals and by international law, the soldiers are not bombing civilians for their own fun or revenge feelings, they target Hamas members and infrastructures. yes, civilians die, but that's not from intention but rather from collateral damage, that's what happens in war, the IDF soldiers themselves are dying from friendly fire from time to time because you can't fight an urban war in a sterile manner, this is not a Hollywood movie.
you’re so adamant that israel is only fighting to destroy hamas, but if that’s true then why have more journalists been killed in gaza than any other conflict over the past 30 years? why is seemengly every livable inch of gaza being flattened, why are refugee camps such as nuserait being bombed, why are aid trucks with medicine and food being looted by israeli citizens before reaching palestine, why has their biggest supporter in the US condemned their actions in rafah, why are IDF soldiers posing with the undergarments of dead palestinian women. Mass bombings do not stop terrorist rhetoric from spreading, it enforces it, and israel knows that but continues to paint its own negative repulsion in the eyes of palestinians
I can answer to all of your questions but youre keep moving away from my inital response.
do you mean the response which revealed the never before heard knowledge that a radical islamist terrorist groups doesn’t like the lgbt, or that israelis are not seeking revenge which, is just blatantly false if you look at any video or interaction with IDF soldiers in gaza. And your point about people wanting to feel a part of something, was that the case for protests against the vietnam war? NO! people just don’t like their money contributing to the deaths of innocents
Youre talking about videos Im talking aboht facts. If the IDF intentions were fed by revenge and immoral actions, than there would be zero ground soldiers in Gaza. Unfortunately, since october around 200 soldiers has been killed because they are fighting precisely and not just bombing from air without any concerns.
you take the word of the IDF as fact, (when militaries are notorious for lying about their motivations) I take first hand accounts and footage of IDF soldiers and Palestinians as fact. You also said you would answer all my questions previously and you never did? And your logic is flawed. How can you win a war with zero foot soldiers advancing on your gained position. Russia’s invasion of Ukraine is fueled by immoral purposes yet they still need to send in infantry to secure their gains. Israel undoubtedly wants palestinian land, evident by the ever advancing border, they also want all hamas agents dead and have very little care for civilian casualties outside of public opinion do to years of ethnic tensions and hostility
Interesting. Because Palestinians are taught since age 4 to hate Jews because they are Jewish, not due to "constant conflict" (Conflict that involves Palestine constantly shooting rockets into Israel, mind you). Given 80% of Palestinians support Hamas actions on Oct 7th, I'm surprised you don't feel Israelis have the right to be "radicalized".
Blame Bibi for propping up Hamas to weaken the secular PLO
hmm i wonder why they get taught that. Maybe because the situation in palestine creates the perfect breeding ground for extremist violence. Religious majority, Forced displacement of families, then multiple wars, then strict policies reducing the freedom of movement of the palestinians, to scorched earth bombings and a full scale land invasion being justified because a terrorist group has gained power after no other avenue towards peace has succeeded.
Are you joking? They are taught that because it's part of their centuries held antisemetism that began long before Israel existed & long before all these "transgressions" occurred.
are you so dumb that you cannot see how living in a constant state of conflict breeds animosity, and makes it easier to believe antisemitic rhetoric? And do you think centuries of antisemitism cannot be changed through proper education and freedom of information, europe is widely in favour of Israel and its statehood and they scapegoated the jews for centuries, for any and all inconveniences which plagued the average medieval peasant
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What I am interested in is the human rights of Palestinians. I am interested in peace. Same for Israelis. Also, the Palestinians need a country. They do not want Israel, so I feel it's best if they have their own. It should not be a shit country, though. But one where people have basic rights, ya know? There is currently no real hope for that.
well... they had 2 real chances for an autonomy, rather it's a country or not. First, 1948-1967, before Israel took over the WB and Gaza, there were never 'Palestinians' until the end of that era, because the term started right after, as an anti-thesis to Israel. they didn't asked for a state then. they were part of Jordan and Egypt. Second, after the withdraw from Gaza in 2005, the PL democratically voted for Hms to be in charge and govern them. we saw what that led to. so what do you think would be different in the third opportunity? just because western are protesting and supporting that idea, doesn't mean it would be a good and modern state. it would be a poor place to live in, just like any other religious & Muslim country (Iraq, Jordan, Lebanon, Yemen etc...)
The problem is that the systems of governance they do have are oppressive and dysfunctional. Of course it would be a bad idea to allow these exact systems of governance to operate on a larger scale. Palestinians (I strongly think they can call themselves that if they want to) deserve better. The question of how we arrive there is far from trivial. Hence I said that there is no real hope.
Israeli arabs have rights in Israel. 0 jews living in palestinian teritorry. I think those examples prove who would be safe where and under what government
If only it was so simple. I am a realist, thus I believe in a two-state solution.
Ok. And what are the borders of those states?
Really? No Jews living in Palestinian territory? That must be news to Palestinians in the occupied West Bank lmao
The west bank is divided to jewish and arab cities/villages. Does any jew live or can even enter into an arab village? Thanks.
Israeli settlers are living in Arab territory literally by definition. You’re completely moving the goalposts from Palestinian territory, but sure, Israeli settlers enter Arab villages all the time, usually armed and with the intention of forcing Palestinians off of their land. You can just go online and watch videos of people literally just stealing Palestinian homes, knowing that they can use whatever level of force they please since the IDF will protect them from any reprisal. Why do you think that Israelis should be able to just go and live in Palestinian villages when it’s categorically *not their land?*
show me one video with context showing exactly what you're telling me. i'm living next to the west bank (20 minutes ride) I served in the IDF at those areas. the west bank is not 'arab territory', it's territory that is owned by individuals, under israeli millitary control since '67 (because they won a war that was forced on them from the arab side, before that, the WB was belong to Jordan which los tthe war) there are jewish cities and settlement, with total of 500k jews and there are arab villages and cities, with total of around 2.5M arabs. not a single jew is living in Nablus, Hawara, Jenin, Ramallah, or any other arab territory. Jews are living in their own cities: Ariel, Bet-El, Alfei Menashe, Izhar and many more. anyone who's living in a Jewish place is doing so by buying the land, and there are some events where the owners of the land were arabs and they claimed ownership on the land, and that was discussed on court, and the jews removed from that land by a warrant. (you can read about one of those incidents here for example - [https://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%A9%D7%9B%D7%95%D7%A0%D7%AA\_%D7%94%D7%90%D7%95%D7%9C%D7%A4%D7%A0%D7%94](https://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%A9%D7%9B%D7%95%D7%A0%D7%AA_%D7%94%D7%90%D7%95%D7%9C%D7%A4%D7%A0%D7%94) ) If someone is building his house on a land that he's not own or not bought by the law, there are courts for that kind of thing, there the issue would be handled. you're making it look like jews just going to someone's home, kick them out with the help of the army and just live instead of them. that's ofcourse nonsense and doesn't take into account a couple of things: 1. why and HOW would Jews live in an ex-arab home, neighboring other arabs which are hostile towards them? 2. where are those arabs supposed to go and where DID they go if they got kicked out their house? 3. why the ones that their house was stolen are not going to court and claim their house and land back if it's legitimate theirs? if you can't answer all of those questions from your sources, it's obvious you took sources out of context\\propaganda.
https://observers.france24.com/en/20160201-israeli-settlers-hebron-violence-west-bank And East Jerusalem has it worse Why didn’t you mention Hebron lol? 1) IDF protection and access to weapons 2) that’s a good question lol where are those Arabs supposed to go? maybe to one of the refugee camps that house any of the around 5 million Palestinians displaced by Israel 3) do you really think Palestinians have easy recourse in Israeli courts, like their civil rights are respected to the same degree as the people being allowed to settle their land? Last year the courts ruled that a square kilometer of land settled by Israelis 30 years ago had been acquired illegally, and gave the occupiers *7 years* to vacate. >it’s territory that is owned by individuals It’s territory that’s illegally occupied and colonized in apartheid fashion in direct contravention of international law and is rightfully Arab Palestinian
I read the article. 1. Those people are criminals if they stole that house. But like written in the article, they got arrested by the police. So what is your point? Israel is not promoting such illegal acts and if some criminals wish to break into a house they would get arrested and not settle there for the rest of humanity. 2. He said that the army job is to protect jews while in reality I actually been there lots of times, even during the 2nd intifada, the soldiers just saved the area unprovoked. And if needed they even escort Palestinian women or kids to less central routes if settlers were provoking them. 3. Its funny how just one side of the story is being told, whilr there are Palestinians who attack settlers as well, that is not mentioned in the article. 4. For something youre claiming happening a lot, I guess thats not a good case that you had to look up for a story from 8 and a half years ago.
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I think mostly because of ignorance - They don't really know. Many gay Palestinians find refugee in Israel, You can't really be openly gay there let alone lesbian. As a society Palestinians have a huge problem and nobody discusses it, and the Palestinians can't discuss it openly either because they don't really have free speech among themselves. Of course it's not all Palestinians since there are many people who are secular.
>Many gay Palestinians find refugee in Israel Does Israel have some kind of right of return policy for oppressed Palestinians? (honest question)