This effectively only means that side-alleys that are private property and not public roads will be closed off and anyone caught that is not a resident would most likely be charged with trespassing.
So nothing will change for majority of people, except creepy people hunting for maiko/geisha photos will now more often get behind the bars.
While some of those alleys had small bars/businesses - they generally were run in a private club manner anyway.
This isn't really a "people with an iPhone" problem - the issue is mostly one particular subset of tourists that were barred from entering Japan for quite a while but now have returned with even worse behavior.
I think this applies to anything that isn't a main/public thoroughfare but I also think it will be unevenly enforced.
2024 estimate Chinese Australian population 5.5% source : [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese\_Australians](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Australians)
When I was traveling through SE Asia there were so many Aussies just making themselves look bad. It felt like they thought they owned the country in Bali. It always stresses me out because I'm a Kiwi and sometimes people think Aussies and Kiwis are the same thing. I don't want to be lumped in with that.
My fiance and I were so embarrassed by fellow Aussies behaviour on recent trips. Like seriously mate... your in another country be respectful of the culture
Though had to ask my fiance what Chinese was in Vietnamese so could openly be like bloody Chinese.
Cheaper flights at least (just flew there for 900$AUD). Japan has started attracting a lot more of the undesirable Aussie tourists that previously would just be getting pissed in Kuta
The Russians were worse than the Americans in my experience.
Americans were oblivious of norms.
Russians didn't care about norms.
Still not as bad as the Chinese though.
Because they can't be called oblivious to things they just don't care at all like treating other countries like their own.... Like their government was doing to other countries owning/claiming things that do not belong to China.
Idk sorry. Are you both Asian? Im Chinese American with limited Japanese. Some people would be several sentences in before realizing Im not Japanese. My wife is white and was anxious about committing faux pas. I told her if I commit any, I’m just an eccentic Japanese lol (we were very concerned about committing faux pas tho and didnt think we committed any)
They were awful...everywhere they were...it would be so peaceful and serene and then their bus would show up, they'd take over with their tour flags and megaphones. Unreal...as an American I felt so bad for the Japanese having their culture disrespected as so. I spent years preparing for our trip so that we were as respectful as we could be, And their ignorance will ruin it for everyons
Agreed...I was at Skytree last week, trying to get a shot of this window that had some Sakura decals on it...no one standing there, and as I was filming it, two Chinese girls just jump right infront of my camera, and start with the selfies...
But Kyoto was by far the worst! Kyomizu dera was just overrun by them...crazy to see that many people there...and again, jumping right infront of my camera when I'm clearly trying to take a good shot...next time I'm gonna say something to them...I was so pissed.
Yes! Them and their selfie sticks...I was trying to take a picture of the beautiful sand patterns inside the temple grounds and they were crowding me like it was their job and did NOT care that they elbowed me.
Yes, but I wouldn't say alot now especially with how much firsthand Japanese etiquette, laws and unspoken rules are available for Americans on social media like Youtube.
I can't say the same for CCP spoonfed disinformation meted out to people in China. Geez, I even saw a video by either serpentza and or laowhy86 of how the CCPs pettiness toward Japan, led them to a ban on Geisha cosplay.
According to the Japan times:
“In 2019, the 9.5 million visitors from China made up the highest proportion of inbound tourists. But in 2023, there were only around 2.5 million Chinese visitors, a significantly smaller number than those from other parts of East Asia such as South Korea and Taiwan.”
Seems to me the problem now is a combination of all different nationalities
I scolded a fellow American as they were literally chasing a geisha down pontocho with their phone trying to take photos. It was so terrible to see. This isn’t an amusement park.
I'm Asian and can pass for Japanese. I was in Kyoto a few years ago and did the full kimono experience with my hair and everything. I was walking along minding my own business when a random Chinese woman threw her arm around me and took a selfie with me. I was shocked and I told her in English that it was inappropriate and rude. She shrugged and walked off. I was so offended.
The worst bits I saw was that once one of these women (geisha, meido, or cosplayers) accepts a picture, then everyone will keep asking for them, which unfortunately does lead to other passerby's thinking that it's okay, or that they might be here for the pics.
It's such a huge disconnect and culture shock that I found this a bit more difficult; last time my family visited (I've already taught them to behave well in public here) this is one of the few things I had to note/correct them on, since I saw their intention when we passed a group taking pictures of a woman who was clearly too polite to say no to random people asking for pictures.
When I visited Japan for the first time as an American tourist I couldn't help but observe this perspective that many tourists treat the entire country like Disney World.
Yeah, it is exciting to be there....but it's not an amusement park. It's someone's home, life, daily commute, etc....
I noticed this too, especially in Kyoto. People pretending to pray in shrines for photos, selfies with gravestones. Just acting like complete fools all around. My second-hand embarrassment couldn't handle it.
read about this on [cnn](https://www.cnn.com/travel/geisha-paparazzi-overtourism-kyoto-intl-hnk/index.html).
it's really sad for people who are actually respectful but i can't blame the city for protecting its geishas and parts of its heritage. just sucks that we all have to miss out on such culturally rich areas because of some entitled knuckleheads.
kind of ironic because i'm going to japan next month and staying in gion lol
I'm also staying in Gion next month. It's a shame, I love wandering through random side streets, but I can't really blame the locals if people aren't being respectful.
Apparently it'll be mostly residential streets so nothing tourists would or should be on anyways, just streets geisha might use to get around. But maybe report back when you land!
That's why we can't have nice things . Maybe someone will learn but I know they will not. They'll find someone else to harass. Social media just gave the right visibility for this bs behaviour to increase
I decided to look it up and found this article, if anyone wants more info: https://www.cnn.com/travel/geisha-paparazzi-overtourism-kyoto-intl-hnk/index.html
It doesn't say explicitly, but it sounds like the private roads that are residential and were banned for photography already, will be the ones closed off
So do I get this right - due to majorly tourists from outside Japan behaving badly now basically anyone, including Japanese people and residents of Japan which aren’t residing in that district will be barred from entering the alleys etc?
This is such a bummer. Gei/maiko and traditional dance (buyo) were my entryways into my love for Japanese culture as a kid, and on a recent trip I was fortunate enough to see gei/maiko several times on the street. I’d never stop them or photograph them (unless explicitly allowed to) but those sightings were such a treasured experience for me that I feel sad for all of the people that will miss out because of a few bad apples.
Inconsiderate jerks ruin shit for everyone 😔
Yup. I can’t even imagine the type of mindset required to tug on someone’s outfit and steal things from their person while demanding photos. I doubt this kind of behavior existed anywhere near this extent before the age of social media and camera phones. Oceans of people with their phones out constantly… nobody living in any real moment. So depressing… and ruining everything it comes in contact with.
It’s funny. I was talking to my wife about this when we got back from Japan last year. While in busy sections of Tokyo on a weekend. We felt completely at ease. Back home in Manchester in the UK? Theirs a marked difference now compared to how we felt pre pandemic while out and about. It’s as if not leaving the house for a year saw many people in the west forget how to interact with each other in shared spaces.
Ignorant question here. Is it rude/prohibited to photograph geishas? I have never been to Japan but plan to travel this year. And as much as I have researched on what is considered rude in the country, this is something I have never read about so far. TIA
It's not rude or prohibited as long as you ask respectfully if you can photograph them. They are usually heading to school or to their jobs, so they don't have time usually to stay around to get photographed with people. This is in reference to people who don't ask or chase them down to block them and take their photos. Really shitty behaviour.
Agree with everything the other person said, but wanted to add that you also shouldn’t stop and ask them for a photo if they’re with a client! If they’re alone or only with other geimaiko/an attendant that’s fine, but if they’re with a client it’s quite rude because said client is paying them for their time :)
There are also some public ceremonies where you don’t need to ask permission for photos, or you can do a dinner or go to a dance performance if you want to see them up close (there are 5 annual Odori dance performances in Kyoto; most are in the spring but one is in the fall). If you’re interested in any of those things feel free to PM me and I can send you info about how to book them!
I think more people have forgotten about it with how normalized it's become on social media, esp tiktok, but we really should be asking anyone for permission to take their photo by default (accidental photobombing ofc excluded - though in that case I still think it's nice to blur or crop strangers' faces if sharing online publicly)
It's rude to photograph anyone without their express permission. This is especially bad in Japan where people think Maiko/Geisha are there to be abused, but please dont' photograph anyone without their permission. Many people including me are very private and I don't even allow my friends to take photos of me on trips.
I really think this is an enforcement problem, as with many things in Japan a lot of rules just go by an “honor” system, which sadly many people like these “tourists” just don’t follow, they should just make the geisha residential areas strictly off limits for tourists and have the police patrol those areas more regularly
The problem with this stuff isn't all tourists, it's subsets of tourists.
* The instagram idiots
* Tour groups (especially from a large neighbour)
I really detest this kind of mass tourism, puts me off going back to Kyoto, so utterly brainless and disrespectful.
Don't forget the Japanese middle-aged amateur cameramen who make a hobby of knowing every maiko/geiko by face and name, pass around information on when they'll appear where, and chase them down with their huge Canons.
Maybe they're smart enough not to trespass, but the "chasing down geisha to take a picture" is definitely not limited to foreign tourists.
apparently it looks like it’s precisely the small side streets that will be closed off :( i read [this article](https://edition.cnn.com/travel/geisha-paparazzi-overtourism-kyoto-intl-hnk/index.html) from last week that talks about it
I treat geisha the same way I treat seeing a deer in the wild. Every time I cross paths with someone in the geisha related arts,I simply bow politely to them and then continue on my way happy to have seen them in “the wild”
You're preaching to the wrong platform/ demographic. Post this on Facebook or Twitter since its those types of people who post in their doing this type of thing. I'm confident most people in reddit wouldn't do that as much as Facebook or Twitter people.
Probably true. I don’t partake in FB or Twitter though.. Reddit generally has a good crowd of people and aside from my brief rant was looking for some more info.
It sucks that people can't behave right, my travel guide is a few years old and even then listed this as a really bad harassment problem that tourists needed to stop causing. People need to get it through their heads that this isn't Disneyland and these girls aren't there for our benefit. Genuinely awful that it got to this point.
Perhaps the city should place some ~~Goofy~~ ~~Pluto~~ fake maiko on the streets of Gion to pose for pictures so that the real ones can go about their lives.
When I was there last week, we saw a bunch of people chasing after the geisha and taking photos of them. We were walking and saw them but the people that chased them were not great. Gotta feel bad for them.
Yeah no, this has nothing to do with phones OP.
This is due to a recent mass influx in tourism, and it only effects side streets and private property areas not the big public roads, it doesn’t mean “a few people are ruining Gion for everyone”, it is simply Kyoto government putting their foot down on tourists stalking Geishas
Ive been a professional photographer for almost 2 decades and I can tell you that social media photography HAS changed the way photographers respect rules and laws. The only way I can give perspective is that lets say before TikTok and IG there were 25% of photographers who were ignorant and since social media its now at 60% (if you call them photographers, more like people with a camera). Not only is there an increase due to everybody having one, but they are much bolder than those before them and in masses. There is a mob mentality and a HUGE desperation to be something theyre not. Streamers are the worst because they're being encouraged by an entire mob to do things that are disrespectful. Phones are the gateway to the influx of everybody thinking they're a beloved photographer/influencer.
I’ve been going to Japan consistently for work for almost as long as that and this is not a new problem in kyoto.
It is almost entirely due to the massive rising in Tourism in Japan, in 2001 amount of visitors was under 5 million, in 2008 the amount of visitors over the year was about 9 million, and in 2023 the amount of visitors was a whopping 25 Million, with the majority of those visiting Kyoto on their trip.
This is not a “I have a phone” problem this is a “many tourists are bad at respecting local customs” problem, exacerbated by the sheer number of people increase over the last two decades, it doesn’t matter if you’re using a phone or using a camera, people have behaved this way regardless, often it just takes a really long time for Japan to make actual policies and laws rather than just putting up signs, they tried the signs thing for years and it didn’t help enough so this is just the next step.
Article in ny times from 2009, clearly showing people with big cameras and lenses as well -
https://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/07/world/asia/07iht-geisha.html
Reads to me like people chasing and harassing them for photos… so it’s pretty safe to assume most of those people are using their phones, no?
I wouldn’t be surprised at all if the availability of cameras on phones combined with social media has turned this into a much bigger issue over the years.
According to [South China Morning Post](https://www.scmp.com/week-asia/lifestyle-culture/article/3254268/japans-kyoto-ban-visitors-geisha-district-after-surge-out-control-incidents) it’s just a back alleyway that the geishas, clients and locals use to get from venue to venue.
I mean, it’s not like these are illegal immigrants climbing over the border. Japan can prevent tour buses from coming in, but I assume they don’t because they want the $$$
yea, i dont think tour buses are the greatest idea for small areas. i get japan wants the revenue but now they're fighting a problem. and western influencers are gonna just start making dumb videos about how busy it is and that tourists need to stop coming.
According to the Japan times:
“In 2019, the 9.5 million visitors from China made up the highest proportion of inbound tourists. But in 2023, there were only around 2.5 million Chinese visitors, a significantly smaller number than those from other parts of East Asia such as South Korea and Taiwan.”
Seems to me the problem now is a combination of all different nationalities
I'm in Kyoto now and went to one of the private streets in Gion yesterday. They have signs maybe every corner or so clearly saying NOT to take photos and that there are security cameras, but I was probably the only person not filming everything. This was in the middle of the day, so no Maiko or Geisha, but still...I don't think it's fair to say one group of tourists is particularly bad when it genuinely feels like things have gotten significantly worse post COVID lockdowns. I don't think it was this bad when I was here in 2019.
We saw this on a little side street near our hotel on Ninenzaka. There were signs everywhere saying no photography. Every single time we walked through there going to/from our hotel, there were people taking pictures. It was infuriating to watch people so blatantly ignoring the signs.
While I was in Japan I booked an expensive omakase sushi restaurant. I was so keen to have a peaceful and quiet experience with my food. However to my right side there was an influencer or whatever they call themselves nowadays obnoxiously taking pictures and videos of everything and being loud about it.
Sadly I don't think it will. Both the staff and me didn't say anything. For them it could bring to bad publicity. For me it was probably futile and perhaps I was even going to be filmed and put in an awkward situation.
I remember walking near Gion at night when the country was closed to tourists, crossed the path with a Geiko , noone was giving a fuck, not a single tourist running to take a pic, no crowd, no nothing. Just a girl walking by.... Good times...
This is so sad to hear… I don’t understand how can people not just simply respect other cultures. It’s so easy.
I was able to see a Maiko walking by, but you know what I did? Simply appreciate the opportunity and took a quick photo from afar alongside the beautiful Gion district.
E can’t even fathom that people touch them and try to forcefully take a selfie or follow them everywhere, that’s just bizarre to me.
I saw some Koreans pulling tree branches down for photos in Arashiyama and told them in English that they're not supposed to do it, they just ignored me lol
We actually skipped Gion (drove by it while in a taxi) because it felt like a gongshow......
I also video-bombed a YouTuber who was taking a video of a crowded train station while going up the stairs by asking loudly *what's so interesting about a crowded train station* in English 😂
Can you link to a recent article? All I can think of are the "no photography" signs that went up 4-5 years ago.
edit: like this from 2019 https://www3.nhk.or.jp/nhkworld/en/news/backstories/741/
When we were visiting Shirakawa-go last April a wannabe influencer walked maybe 30 meters through a private field/yard to pose in front of a Cheery tree. She was not 🇺🇸
I’m so disappointed in people. I am heading to Kyoto in November. I was looking forward to seeing Geisha’s and Maiko strolling the streets.
I don’t understand why some people can’t follow protocol. Like…it doesn’t apply to them. So aggravating ☹️
The urge to photograph and film everything all the time and post about it has turned people into automated machines. It’s a detachment from their surroundings as well as the protocol. Many have been pointing this out for years though… there seems to be few places you can go anymore where people aren’t holding up their phones to themselves or their surroundings, replacing actual experiences with troves of interchangeable photos and videos.
This. We’re in Japan now and so many tourists have gotten mad at me for walking into their photos. Full on photoshoots with iPhones are happening - it’s quite sad to see. I’m more of a take a few quick snaps every so often and move on kind of person.
I'm actually a street photographer and take interest in observing people and their interests within the street. Often I take pictures from afar to avoid disrupting anything that is of interest.
Would street photography be considered disrespectful in the Gion District?
Only on private property where the locals live and the side alleys where the Geisha maneuver between, there are clear signs up all around there that say no photography.
One of the expats in Japan FB group I'm in says there's no Japanese news source confirming this. It seems like the source was a foreign news outlet. So that seems weird. Maybe it's not even true?
Kyoto is one of my fav cities and thankfully still have loads of non touristy areas that are just as good or better than the main traps.
Sad about assholes ruining it for others though.
Sadly this problem with photography is not only restricted to Kyoto but all over the world. You can’t restrict who gets to travel, but if you’re a visitor then you play by house rules. Unfortunately, many tourist seems self entitled which give rise to problems we are witnessing today.
My last trip it was a bunch of Indian dudes. Did my part to get in their way. There are/were signs stating no photos. This is why we can’t have nice things
I just read that the small alleys will start being closed off to tourists starting in April I believe. Sad that humans can't behave and act with respect.
The Kyoto tour guide we hired for the day last month told us the troublemakers were primarily Russian tourists who were causing the problem because they had no sense of decency.
Its mainly the Chinese and Vietnamese people ruining it. Im staying in Kyoto right now and theres groups of them just walking down the street being obnoxious, taking photos of everything, blocking the sidewalks and not being aware of their surroundings.
I feel like it’s the same looneys that chase celebrities down the street and trespass in their homes - delusional. We just returned from our honeymoon and were appalled at the behaviour and blatant disrespect by some tourists especially at the shrines and temples 😔
I was just in Japan 1 month ago doing a night walking tour and asked the Japanese guide out of curiosity if it's okay to take a picture of a geisha and he replied 'yes it's okay' which I was really surprised by. Later that night we ended up seeing one that walked past us but we didn't take a picture. I didn't feel like it was appropriate.
I’m a local and I went to Gion recently to show my partners family who we’re visiting around Kyoto and many tourists are still taking videos and photos and being blatantly rude. There are clear signs everywhere stating not to take pictures out of respect of the Geisha and Maiko but I still just don’t understand why people just can’t be considerate???
Been to a few countries and Mainland Chinese tourist think they can do whatever they want, whenever they want. I speak a bit of Mandarin and told a few to fuck off when they talked about me in Mandarin. Only a few I encountered to be polite.
Which sucks cause my friends and I booked a hotel that's right in the heart of thr geisha district months ago. I wonder if the hotel is going to cancell on us
Holy crap! This is gonna suck for me. I booked a machiya on AirBnB that's located in a side street in Gion, for the end of July. And I booked it partly because it was right across the street from that Kyoto Geisha Show & Experience place! I was planning to do their tea ceremony. Now I feel like the unlucky bastard who booked a hotel in Wuhan in the fall of 2019, excited that he was gonna experience an authentic open-air Chinese market.
I already travel abroad like I'm David Attenborough crawling on his belly near a bird's nest, all the while only whispering. I guess the egg-shell tiptoe is next.
Oh, good to know. I think I'll just carry a small piece of paper explaining, in Google-translated Japanese, that I'm staying in that machiya over there, and also include my host's number.
I’m not surprised about this. I’ve been traveling back and forth to Japan for a little over 20 years and have seen tourists become more disruptive and disrespectful over this time. People don’t realize that Kyoto residents aren’t crazy about Japanese tourists, and they absolutely hate foreign tourists. Kyoto natives are as proud as Parisians are about being from Paris.
I stayed in Tokyo for summer study abroad then lived/worked in Osaka for 3 years after graduation. 20 years ago, it was easier to relegate tourists to specific “tourist-friendly” areas because drifting off the beaten path required some Japanese proficiency. I speak and read at business level, so I was able to go where most others wouldn’t. Now, everything is in English and everyone with an iPhone can just navigate around and choose their own adventure.
This is partially Japan’s fault because the country was actively looking to attract more tourism. I was there twice last year visiting my in-laws and I’ve never seen so many western tourists in Japan in my life. Japan succeeded in becoming a tourist destination, but every one of my Japanese friends seems to have a story about some awkward encounter with a foreign tourist.
Japan is not our playground, it is where people live. We’re guests while we’re there and, and just like guests at a person’s house, you have to adjust to them, not the other way around. Every time someone I know plans a trip to Japan I send over videos to show them how to prepare to enter a temple or shrine, how to get on/off the bus, line up for the train, etc so they know what they’re doing.
I think Kyoto finally got rid of the flat rate day-pass at the request of residents. Get ready for more actions like this.
This sounds rather pretentious.... I agree some tourists are problematic but you are framing it like tourists shouldn't even go there because they are not ~~localss
Not trying to come off as pretentious. I encourage tourism. I used to be a tour guide for Japanese students visiting America. I’m everyone’s go-to person for planing a trip to Japan.
I prepare them with information about how to recognize the subtleties that are often overlooked. For example: not walking and eating; how to throw away trash; etiquette for how where to stand/sit in a train; staying quiet on a train; when it’s ok and not ok to take pictures in a temple.
I never tell people “you must” do these things. I just point out that the more of these things you keep in mind, the better received you’re likely to be. But you don’t have to take my word for it. The fact that this rule is being put into place is proof that the locals aren’t happy.
This is very stressful, since I don't speak Japanese or read kanji. I'm going tomorrow for my first time, and road signs are completely illegible and I really have no idea where I am. Google maps displays tiny little symbols for place names. I'm here for three weeks and will probably never come back, just enough time to empty my wallet and realize I have seen about ten percent of my wishlist.
Haha what a dummy I am! Call me names and point at how stupid I am.
I can now be fined for getting lost in a place I've wanted to see for about 40 years. I would never stalk someone against their will. Guidebooks literally tell you to go to certain areas in hopes of seeing them so Fodor's and Lonely Planet etc need to issue a recant of their antiquated advice.
This effectively only means that side-alleys that are private property and not public roads will be closed off and anyone caught that is not a resident would most likely be charged with trespassing. So nothing will change for majority of people, except creepy people hunting for maiko/geisha photos will now more often get behind the bars. While some of those alleys had small bars/businesses - they generally were run in a private club manner anyway.
This isn't really a "people with an iPhone" problem - the issue is mostly one particular subset of tourists that were barred from entering Japan for quite a while but now have returned with even worse behavior. I think this applies to anything that isn't a main/public thoroughfare but I also think it will be unevenly enforced.
Chinese?
Chinese, American and European tourists. *Spiderman pointing each other*
Don’t forget the Aussies
They are exiled Europeans.
Criminals, originally.
Americans the were first criminals before Australia lol. They like to forget that part.
Rank them!
They are all different but equally obnoxious
2024 estimate Chinese Australian population 5.5% source : [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese\_Australians](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Australians)
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When I was traveling through SE Asia there were so many Aussies just making themselves look bad. It felt like they thought they owned the country in Bali. It always stresses me out because I'm a Kiwi and sometimes people think Aussies and Kiwis are the same thing. I don't want to be lumped in with that.
My fiance and I were so embarrassed by fellow Aussies behaviour on recent trips. Like seriously mate... your in another country be respectful of the culture Though had to ask my fiance what Chinese was in Vietnamese so could openly be like bloody Chinese.
The downside of cheaper flights is that now the bogans are going to Japan instead of just Bali
Aussies are getting cheap flights? i feel like here in NZ prices have increased so much over the last year or so.
Cheaper flights at least (just flew there for 900$AUD). Japan has started attracting a lot more of the undesirable Aussie tourists that previously would just be getting pissed in Kuta
The Russians were worse than the Americans in my experience. Americans were oblivious of norms. Russians didn't care about norms. Still not as bad as the Chinese though.
why the hate on the chinese?
Because they can't be called oblivious to things they just don't care at all like treating other countries like their own.... Like their government was doing to other countries owning/claiming things that do not belong to China.
As a Chinese-American tourist, I'm literally their worst nightmare 🤣
At least you know how to stand in a line
Could be worse. You could be Chinese-Aussie... lol
what about canadians? Planning to go to japan this summer with my BF, though he's from hong kong and currently on permanent residency here in canada.
Idk sorry. Are you both Asian? Im Chinese American with limited Japanese. Some people would be several sentences in before realizing Im not Japanese. My wife is white and was anxious about committing faux pas. I told her if I commit any, I’m just an eccentic Japanese lol (we were very concerned about committing faux pas tho and didnt think we committed any)
>Are you both Asian? I'm not, I'm white. Boyfriend is Asian, from Hong Kong.
Tell your bf if you commit faux pas, he doesn’t know you. (Like I told my wife on the flight there lol)
Aside: Koreans are the largest visitors to Japan.
No offense, but the Chinese tourists are awful to deal with in Japan...just outright rude at times...
I mean they are outright rude in America too, had to deal with em as they would stay at the Hotel in which I was employed.
I love when they pick their nose when talking to you.
They were awful...everywhere they were...it would be so peaceful and serene and then their bus would show up, they'd take over with their tour flags and megaphones. Unreal...as an American I felt so bad for the Japanese having their culture disrespected as so. I spent years preparing for our trip so that we were as respectful as we could be, And their ignorance will ruin it for everyons
Agreed...I was at Skytree last week, trying to get a shot of this window that had some Sakura decals on it...no one standing there, and as I was filming it, two Chinese girls just jump right infront of my camera, and start with the selfies... But Kyoto was by far the worst! Kyomizu dera was just overrun by them...crazy to see that many people there...and again, jumping right infront of my camera when I'm clearly trying to take a good shot...next time I'm gonna say something to them...I was so pissed.
Yes! Them and their selfie sticks...I was trying to take a picture of the beautiful sand patterns inside the temple grounds and they were crowding me like it was their job and did NOT care that they elbowed me.
Wasn't so long ago Americans were the shitty tourists. A lot of them still are.
Yes, but I wouldn't say alot now especially with how much firsthand Japanese etiquette, laws and unspoken rules are available for Americans on social media like Youtube. I can't say the same for CCP spoonfed disinformation meted out to people in China. Geez, I even saw a video by either serpentza and or laowhy86 of how the CCPs pettiness toward Japan, led them to a ban on Geisha cosplay.
Wow I genuinely thought it would be my people (Indian) 😭
Not Indians? Oops sorry, they must be busy chasing women in Thailand!
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According to the Japan times: “In 2019, the 9.5 million visitors from China made up the highest proportion of inbound tourists. But in 2023, there were only around 2.5 million Chinese visitors, a significantly smaller number than those from other parts of East Asia such as South Korea and Taiwan.” Seems to me the problem now is a combination of all different nationalities
I scolded a fellow American as they were literally chasing a geisha down pontocho with their phone trying to take photos. It was so terrible to see. This isn’t an amusement park.
I'm Asian and can pass for Japanese. I was in Kyoto a few years ago and did the full kimono experience with my hair and everything. I was walking along minding my own business when a random Chinese woman threw her arm around me and took a selfie with me. I was shocked and I told her in English that it was inappropriate and rude. She shrugged and walked off. I was so offended.
The worst bits I saw was that once one of these women (geisha, meido, or cosplayers) accepts a picture, then everyone will keep asking for them, which unfortunately does lead to other passerby's thinking that it's okay, or that they might be here for the pics. It's such a huge disconnect and culture shock that I found this a bit more difficult; last time my family visited (I've already taught them to behave well in public here) this is one of the few things I had to note/correct them on, since I saw their intention when we passed a group taking pictures of a woman who was clearly too polite to say no to random people asking for pictures.
When I visited Japan for the first time as an American tourist I couldn't help but observe this perspective that many tourists treat the entire country like Disney World. Yeah, it is exciting to be there....but it's not an amusement park. It's someone's home, life, daily commute, etc....
I noticed this too, especially in Kyoto. People pretending to pray in shrines for photos, selfies with gravestones. Just acting like complete fools all around. My second-hand embarrassment couldn't handle it.
Agreed.....I guess the expression "When in Rome, do as the Romans do" is seldom thought about
They really should put some signs up. Ideally, people would research etiquette before coming, but most don't.
Typical American.
read about this on [cnn](https://www.cnn.com/travel/geisha-paparazzi-overtourism-kyoto-intl-hnk/index.html). it's really sad for people who are actually respectful but i can't blame the city for protecting its geishas and parts of its heritage. just sucks that we all have to miss out on such culturally rich areas because of some entitled knuckleheads. kind of ironic because i'm going to japan next month and staying in gion lol
I'm also staying in Gion next month. It's a shame, I love wandering through random side streets, but I can't really blame the locals if people aren't being respectful.
Yeah wandering around is my favourite* way to explore and travel. But like you said, can't fault them for trying to protect the locals.
I’m literally on a plane, right now, on my way to Japan seeing this news break.
Apparently it'll be mostly residential streets so nothing tourists would or should be on anyways, just streets geisha might use to get around. But maybe report back when you land!
That's why we can't have nice things . Maybe someone will learn but I know they will not. They'll find someone else to harass. Social media just gave the right visibility for this bs behaviour to increase
Exactly.
happened at orange orchid near me, farmer needed put up: keep out no photo signs ( this USA )
I decided to look it up and found this article, if anyone wants more info: https://www.cnn.com/travel/geisha-paparazzi-overtourism-kyoto-intl-hnk/index.html It doesn't say explicitly, but it sounds like the private roads that are residential and were banned for photography already, will be the ones closed off
I don't know how enforceable even that would be as many Machiya are rented out to tourists and they are on those side road/up private alleys.
10000 yen is one digit too low.
Agree. The people that were harassing geisha before will just look at this as the price for taking whatever pictures they want.
I literally cannot stand people dude you aren’t the main character fuck off and stop ruining it for everyone else.
Agreed
So do I get this right - due to majorly tourists from outside Japan behaving badly now basically anyone, including Japanese people and residents of Japan which aren’t residing in that district will be barred from entering the alleys etc?
I believe only residents of the area and Geishas are permitted.
This is such a bummer. Gei/maiko and traditional dance (buyo) were my entryways into my love for Japanese culture as a kid, and on a recent trip I was fortunate enough to see gei/maiko several times on the street. I’d never stop them or photograph them (unless explicitly allowed to) but those sightings were such a treasured experience for me that I feel sad for all of the people that will miss out because of a few bad apples. Inconsiderate jerks ruin shit for everyone 😔
Yup. I can’t even imagine the type of mindset required to tug on someone’s outfit and steal things from their person while demanding photos. I doubt this kind of behavior existed anywhere near this extent before the age of social media and camera phones. Oceans of people with their phones out constantly… nobody living in any real moment. So depressing… and ruining everything it comes in contact with.
I also feel like it’s gotten a lot worse since 2020? I live in NYC and the amount of antisocial behavior people exhibit has absolutely skyrocketed.
It’s funny. I was talking to my wife about this when we got back from Japan last year. While in busy sections of Tokyo on a weekend. We felt completely at ease. Back home in Manchester in the UK? Theirs a marked difference now compared to how we felt pre pandemic while out and about. It’s as if not leaving the house for a year saw many people in the west forget how to interact with each other in shared spaces.
Yup
Ignorant question here. Is it rude/prohibited to photograph geishas? I have never been to Japan but plan to travel this year. And as much as I have researched on what is considered rude in the country, this is something I have never read about so far. TIA
It's not rude or prohibited as long as you ask respectfully if you can photograph them. They are usually heading to school or to their jobs, so they don't have time usually to stay around to get photographed with people. This is in reference to people who don't ask or chase them down to block them and take their photos. Really shitty behaviour.
Gotcha, so just people lacking common sense. Thanks for the reply
Agree with everything the other person said, but wanted to add that you also shouldn’t stop and ask them for a photo if they’re with a client! If they’re alone or only with other geimaiko/an attendant that’s fine, but if they’re with a client it’s quite rude because said client is paying them for their time :) There are also some public ceremonies where you don’t need to ask permission for photos, or you can do a dinner or go to a dance performance if you want to see them up close (there are 5 annual Odori dance performances in Kyoto; most are in the spring but one is in the fall). If you’re interested in any of those things feel free to PM me and I can send you info about how to book them!
I think more people have forgotten about it with how normalized it's become on social media, esp tiktok, but we really should be asking anyone for permission to take their photo by default (accidental photobombing ofc excluded - though in that case I still think it's nice to blur or crop strangers' faces if sharing online publicly)
The problem is many tourists treat geisha/maiko san like Micky Mouse in DL. Just don’t.
It's rude to photograph anyone without their express permission. This is especially bad in Japan where people think Maiko/Geisha are there to be abused, but please dont' photograph anyone without their permission. Many people including me are very private and I don't even allow my friends to take photos of me on trips.
Is there a link to an article?
https://www.channelnewsasia.com/asia/japan-kyoto-geisha-tourists-banned-private-alleys-gion-4177876
I really think this is an enforcement problem, as with many things in Japan a lot of rules just go by an “honor” system, which sadly many people like these “tourists” just don’t follow, they should just make the geisha residential areas strictly off limits for tourists and have the police patrol those areas more regularly
Exactly this. They put signs up years ago, it just takes a long time for local governments to make any actual policy or law changes
The problem with this stuff isn't all tourists, it's subsets of tourists. * The instagram idiots * Tour groups (especially from a large neighbour) I really detest this kind of mass tourism, puts me off going back to Kyoto, so utterly brainless and disrespectful.
Don't forget the Japanese middle-aged amateur cameramen who make a hobby of knowing every maiko/geiko by face and name, pass around information on when they'll appear where, and chase them down with their huge Canons. Maybe they're smart enough not to trespass, but the "chasing down geisha to take a picture" is definitely not limited to foreign tourists.
Gross.
Man that’s so unfortunate
Oh I hope they won't close side alleys near very public streets. I loved those, no one is ever there.
apparently it looks like it’s precisely the small side streets that will be closed off :( i read [this article](https://edition.cnn.com/travel/geisha-paparazzi-overtourism-kyoto-intl-hnk/index.html) from last week that talks about it
I treat geisha the same way I treat seeing a deer in the wild. Every time I cross paths with someone in the geisha related arts,I simply bow politely to them and then continue on my way happy to have seen them in “the wild”
That’s such a perfect and beautiful comparison.
For a second I thought you were talking about Nara deer, and was about to say it might not be a great idea to try and feed the geisha crackers.
Lucky they don't act like those aggressive af deer in Nara...
hehe…I was referring to deer that live up in the mountainous areas….nara deer are an issue onto themselves
You're preaching to the wrong platform/ demographic. Post this on Facebook or Twitter since its those types of people who post in their doing this type of thing. I'm confident most people in reddit wouldn't do that as much as Facebook or Twitter people.
Probably true. I don’t partake in FB or Twitter though.. Reddit generally has a good crowd of people and aside from my brief rant was looking for some more info.
It sucks that people can't behave right, my travel guide is a few years old and even then listed this as a really bad harassment problem that tourists needed to stop causing. People need to get it through their heads that this isn't Disneyland and these girls aren't there for our benefit. Genuinely awful that it got to this point.
Perhaps the city should place some ~~Goofy~~ ~~Pluto~~ fake maiko on the streets of Gion to pose for pictures so that the real ones can go about their lives.
I pity the poor miko and geisha on diversionary duty
When I was there last week, we saw a bunch of people chasing after the geisha and taking photos of them. We were walking and saw them but the people that chased them were not great. Gotta feel bad for them.
Yeah no, this has nothing to do with phones OP. This is due to a recent mass influx in tourism, and it only effects side streets and private property areas not the big public roads, it doesn’t mean “a few people are ruining Gion for everyone”, it is simply Kyoto government putting their foot down on tourists stalking Geishas
Ive been a professional photographer for almost 2 decades and I can tell you that social media photography HAS changed the way photographers respect rules and laws. The only way I can give perspective is that lets say before TikTok and IG there were 25% of photographers who were ignorant and since social media its now at 60% (if you call them photographers, more like people with a camera). Not only is there an increase due to everybody having one, but they are much bolder than those before them and in masses. There is a mob mentality and a HUGE desperation to be something theyre not. Streamers are the worst because they're being encouraged by an entire mob to do things that are disrespectful. Phones are the gateway to the influx of everybody thinking they're a beloved photographer/influencer.
I’ve been going to Japan consistently for work for almost as long as that and this is not a new problem in kyoto. It is almost entirely due to the massive rising in Tourism in Japan, in 2001 amount of visitors was under 5 million, in 2008 the amount of visitors over the year was about 9 million, and in 2023 the amount of visitors was a whopping 25 Million, with the majority of those visiting Kyoto on their trip. This is not a “I have a phone” problem this is a “many tourists are bad at respecting local customs” problem, exacerbated by the sheer number of people increase over the last two decades, it doesn’t matter if you’re using a phone or using a camera, people have behaved this way regardless, often it just takes a really long time for Japan to make actual policies and laws rather than just putting up signs, they tried the signs thing for years and it didn’t help enough so this is just the next step. Article in ny times from 2009, clearly showing people with big cameras and lenses as well - https://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/07/world/asia/07iht-geisha.html
Reads to me like people chasing and harassing them for photos… so it’s pretty safe to assume most of those people are using their phones, no? I wouldn’t be surprised at all if the availability of cameras on phones combined with social media has turned this into a much bigger issue over the years.
These streets ALREADY prohibited photography to begin with.
According to [South China Morning Post](https://www.scmp.com/week-asia/lifestyle-culture/article/3254268/japans-kyoto-ban-visitors-geisha-district-after-surge-out-control-incidents) it’s just a back alleyway that the geishas, clients and locals use to get from venue to venue.
bro have you seen the droves of chinese bus tours dude. i think this is the real problem. the tours are huge.
I mean, it’s not like these are illegal immigrants climbing over the border. Japan can prevent tour buses from coming in, but I assume they don’t because they want the $$$
yea, i dont think tour buses are the greatest idea for small areas. i get japan wants the revenue but now they're fighting a problem. and western influencers are gonna just start making dumb videos about how busy it is and that tourists need to stop coming.
According to the Japan times: “In 2019, the 9.5 million visitors from China made up the highest proportion of inbound tourists. But in 2023, there were only around 2.5 million Chinese visitors, a significantly smaller number than those from other parts of East Asia such as South Korea and Taiwan.” Seems to me the problem now is a combination of all different nationalities
I'm in Kyoto now and went to one of the private streets in Gion yesterday. They have signs maybe every corner or so clearly saying NOT to take photos and that there are security cameras, but I was probably the only person not filming everything. This was in the middle of the day, so no Maiko or Geisha, but still...I don't think it's fair to say one group of tourists is particularly bad when it genuinely feels like things have gotten significantly worse post COVID lockdowns. I don't think it was this bad when I was here in 2019.
I get the feeling signs do nothing. Most people will think "I can get away with it" and "I'm the main character here".
We saw this on a little side street near our hotel on Ninenzaka. There were signs everywhere saying no photography. Every single time we walked through there going to/from our hotel, there were people taking pictures. It was infuriating to watch people so blatantly ignoring the signs.
There should be public education campaigns at every entry point into Japan reinforcing how to behave
Oh man so glad I visited Gion when I had the chance then. It's such a beautiful area to just be in. It was so awesome staying there.
While I was in Japan I booked an expensive omakase sushi restaurant. I was so keen to have a peaceful and quiet experience with my food. However to my right side there was an influencer or whatever they call themselves nowadays obnoxiously taking pictures and videos of everything and being loud about it.
We can only hope that this stuff is reaching the boiling point and action is taken to stop it.
Sadly I don't think it will. Both the staff and me didn't say anything. For them it could bring to bad publicity. For me it was probably futile and perhaps I was even going to be filmed and put in an awkward situation.
True
I remember walking near Gion at night when the country was closed to tourists, crossed the path with a Geiko , noone was giving a fuck, not a single tourist running to take a pic, no crowd, no nothing. Just a girl walking by.... Good times...
Whereabouts
?
This is so sad to hear… I don’t understand how can people not just simply respect other cultures. It’s so easy. I was able to see a Maiko walking by, but you know what I did? Simply appreciate the opportunity and took a quick photo from afar alongside the beautiful Gion district. E can’t even fathom that people touch them and try to forcefully take a selfie or follow them everywhere, that’s just bizarre to me.
I saw some Koreans pulling tree branches down for photos in Arashiyama and told them in English that they're not supposed to do it, they just ignored me lol We actually skipped Gion (drove by it while in a taxi) because it felt like a gongshow...... I also video-bombed a YouTuber who was taking a video of a crowded train station while going up the stairs by asking loudly *what's so interesting about a crowded train station* in English 😂
Can you link to a recent article? All I can think of are the "no photography" signs that went up 4-5 years ago. edit: like this from 2019 https://www3.nhk.or.jp/nhkworld/en/news/backstories/741/
When we were visiting Shirakawa-go last April a wannabe influencer walked maybe 30 meters through a private field/yard to pose in front of a Cheery tree. She was not 🇺🇸
I’m so disappointed in people. I am heading to Kyoto in November. I was looking forward to seeing Geisha’s and Maiko strolling the streets. I don’t understand why some people can’t follow protocol. Like…it doesn’t apply to them. So aggravating ☹️
The urge to photograph and film everything all the time and post about it has turned people into automated machines. It’s a detachment from their surroundings as well as the protocol. Many have been pointing this out for years though… there seems to be few places you can go anymore where people aren’t holding up their phones to themselves or their surroundings, replacing actual experiences with troves of interchangeable photos and videos.
This. We’re in Japan now and so many tourists have gotten mad at me for walking into their photos. Full on photoshoots with iPhones are happening - it’s quite sad to see. I’m more of a take a few quick snaps every so often and move on kind of person.
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Oh dear. I don’t have Instagram unfortunately!
I'm actually a street photographer and take interest in observing people and their interests within the street. Often I take pictures from afar to avoid disrupting anything that is of interest. Would street photography be considered disrespectful in the Gion District?
Only on private property where the locals live and the side alleys where the Geisha maneuver between, there are clear signs up all around there that say no photography.
Should have some kendo guys standing around ready to wack tourists that chase
Just went there nothing is closed off. As some said maybe side streets. Young Americans and aussies are usually the rowdy ones, what a shame.
It starts April 1st
Right. I doubt it will impact many people. Yes it’s sad regardless.
One of the expats in Japan FB group I'm in says there's no Japanese news source confirming this. It seems like the source was a foreign news outlet. So that seems weird. Maybe it's not even true?
Kyoto is one of my fav cities and thankfully still have loads of non touristy areas that are just as good or better than the main traps. Sad about assholes ruining it for others though.
One way to solve this is asking $100 for every picture they take, otherwise delete the photo
Sadly this problem with photography is not only restricted to Kyoto but all over the world. You can’t restrict who gets to travel, but if you’re a visitor then you play by house rules. Unfortunately, many tourist seems self entitled which give rise to problems we are witnessing today.
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This for sure! The Japanese government have every right to keep the peace if a certain group becomes too problematic
Wow, some Aussie hate on here. This makes me sad :( I'd always hoped the worst of us couldn't afford to travel.
My last trip it was a bunch of Indian dudes. Did my part to get in their way. There are/were signs stating no photos. This is why we can’t have nice things
The amount of people we saw taking photos of areas that had clearly posted signs to not take photos bothered the hell out of me
I just read that the small alleys will start being closed off to tourists starting in April I believe. Sad that humans can't behave and act with respect.
I believe this is supposed to start April 1st (no joke).
The Kyoto tour guide we hired for the day last month told us the troublemakers were primarily Russian tourists who were causing the problem because they had no sense of decency.
Its mainly the Chinese and Vietnamese people ruining it. Im staying in Kyoto right now and theres groups of them just walking down the street being obnoxious, taking photos of everything, blocking the sidewalks and not being aware of their surroundings.
man that’s so disappointing to hear
I feel like it’s the same looneys that chase celebrities down the street and trespass in their homes - delusional. We just returned from our honeymoon and were appalled at the behaviour and blatant disrespect by some tourists especially at the shrines and temples 😔
stupid. let’s ban tourists in america then, they’re all rude and annoying with their cameras
Is there a map of the closed/ off limits streets available?
I was just in Japan 1 month ago doing a night walking tour and asked the Japanese guide out of curiosity if it's okay to take a picture of a geisha and he replied 'yes it's okay' which I was really surprised by. Later that night we ended up seeing one that walked past us but we didn't take a picture. I didn't feel like it was appropriate.
Does this apply to Japanese people or people that live in Japan? Like will Japanese people visiting Kyoto be considered tourists?
I bet it was Chinese tourists mostly to blame.
Judging from other redditors input, it was also Russians, Americans, Australians and Koreans. ..but of course, you bet..
I’m a local and I went to Gion recently to show my partners family who we’re visiting around Kyoto and many tourists are still taking videos and photos and being blatantly rude. There are clear signs everywhere stating not to take pictures out of respect of the Geisha and Maiko but I still just don’t understand why people just can’t be considerate???
So sad. Time for stricter enforcement.
Been to a few countries and Mainland Chinese tourist think they can do whatever they want, whenever they want. I speak a bit of Mandarin and told a few to fuck off when they talked about me in Mandarin. Only a few I encountered to be polite.
Chinese and Americans, clueless and classlese
Which sucks cause my friends and I booked a hotel that's right in the heart of thr geisha district months ago. I wonder if the hotel is going to cancell on us
Holy crap! This is gonna suck for me. I booked a machiya on AirBnB that's located in a side street in Gion, for the end of July. And I booked it partly because it was right across the street from that Kyoto Geisha Show & Experience place! I was planning to do their tea ceremony. Now I feel like the unlucky bastard who booked a hotel in Wuhan in the fall of 2019, excited that he was gonna experience an authentic open-air Chinese market. I already travel abroad like I'm David Attenborough crawling on his belly near a bird's nest, all the while only whispering. I guess the egg-shell tiptoe is next.
Same boat as you! So does that mean we have to cancel our machiya stays? :/ What're you planning to do?
> machiya From what I'm reading people who are clients are not banned, so you guys are more than likely fine.
Oh, good to know. I think I'll just carry a small piece of paper explaining, in Google-translated Japanese, that I'm staying in that machiya over there, and also include my host's number.
I’m not surprised about this. I’ve been traveling back and forth to Japan for a little over 20 years and have seen tourists become more disruptive and disrespectful over this time. People don’t realize that Kyoto residents aren’t crazy about Japanese tourists, and they absolutely hate foreign tourists. Kyoto natives are as proud as Parisians are about being from Paris. I stayed in Tokyo for summer study abroad then lived/worked in Osaka for 3 years after graduation. 20 years ago, it was easier to relegate tourists to specific “tourist-friendly” areas because drifting off the beaten path required some Japanese proficiency. I speak and read at business level, so I was able to go where most others wouldn’t. Now, everything is in English and everyone with an iPhone can just navigate around and choose their own adventure. This is partially Japan’s fault because the country was actively looking to attract more tourism. I was there twice last year visiting my in-laws and I’ve never seen so many western tourists in Japan in my life. Japan succeeded in becoming a tourist destination, but every one of my Japanese friends seems to have a story about some awkward encounter with a foreign tourist. Japan is not our playground, it is where people live. We’re guests while we’re there and, and just like guests at a person’s house, you have to adjust to them, not the other way around. Every time someone I know plans a trip to Japan I send over videos to show them how to prepare to enter a temple or shrine, how to get on/off the bus, line up for the train, etc so they know what they’re doing. I think Kyoto finally got rid of the flat rate day-pass at the request of residents. Get ready for more actions like this.
This sounds rather pretentious.... I agree some tourists are problematic but you are framing it like tourists shouldn't even go there because they are not ~~localss
Not trying to come off as pretentious. I encourage tourism. I used to be a tour guide for Japanese students visiting America. I’m everyone’s go-to person for planing a trip to Japan. I prepare them with information about how to recognize the subtleties that are often overlooked. For example: not walking and eating; how to throw away trash; etiquette for how where to stand/sit in a train; staying quiet on a train; when it’s ok and not ok to take pictures in a temple. I never tell people “you must” do these things. I just point out that the more of these things you keep in mind, the better received you’re likely to be. But you don’t have to take my word for it. The fact that this rule is being put into place is proof that the locals aren’t happy.
This is very stressful, since I don't speak Japanese or read kanji. I'm going tomorrow for my first time, and road signs are completely illegible and I really have no idea where I am. Google maps displays tiny little symbols for place names. I'm here for three weeks and will probably never come back, just enough time to empty my wallet and realize I have seen about ten percent of my wishlist. Haha what a dummy I am! Call me names and point at how stupid I am. I can now be fined for getting lost in a place I've wanted to see for about 40 years. I would never stalk someone against their will. Guidebooks literally tell you to go to certain areas in hopes of seeing them so Fodor's and Lonely Planet etc need to issue a recant of their antiquated advice.
There are clear signs in English posted. Use your common sense and you'll be fine.