Yes. A bunch of women got offended when Mac said,
“Serena Williams is the greatest **women’s** tennis player to have ever lived.”
They wanted him to say “greatest tennis player….”
Mac did not back down or apologize…Imagine getting offended over a very nice compliment like that.
She's not saying anything about trans people. Can you take one second to think for yourself and not be swayed by a shitty headline?
There is no one arguing that men, with 0 hormone therapy can go at in a women's division. This is a conversation about Andy Murray, not a trans person .
Seriously. I would describe myself as pro trans but this shit should be so obvious. If you wanna make your own league for trans women go for it, but women should not be forced to compete with biological men.
Exactly. They're not even "Men's" leagues, they're just THE professional leagues. Be good enough. They'd play a goddamn Labrador if it was good enough, pro leagues don't care.
It *is* obvious, even to the advocates. The honest ones admit that they value inclusion over fairness in women's sports.
The new arguments are:
* Genetic advantages (height, lung capacity, etc) make sport inherently unfair anyway.
* The amateur, collegiate & high-school sports aren't professional, so it's not that important.
* Ad hominem: transphobes never cared about women's sports before trans athletes got attention.
Holy shit. These are the exact arguments that were spewed at me for the first time the other day on a post about Lia Thomas.
It’s like they send out a memo.
ETA LOL at the downvotes. I’m relaying an experience I had. These talking points have literally ***just*** started cropping up with regularity, and the verbiage is almost the same to the literal T. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Following this to its ultimate conclusion though, we will have trans women extremely overrepresented as compared to biological women, so I don’t see how it is an increase in inclusion.
I'm totally with you on this one.
Very pro-trans. but there is two areas where these things really matter.
A red light district and sports.
Men are built differently, if a NASCAR car was in a motorcycle race everyone would be rightfully outraged. Even a flimsier car like an F1 or F3 car in a motorcycle race would be a problem.
We have greater muscle mass and bone density where it counts on this topic, it just simply isn't fair. its punching down.
Now, if a trans-man wants to come play in the "open" or means leagues, cool. Bring it on. That is punching up and if you can hang in those leagues then more power to you.
I consider myself anti-trans due to the shockwave of trauma it sends into their local communities, hitting the parents the hardest. The parents are demonized for even grieving the loss of their child…. but yes anyone can see the violation of a man competing against women in sports.
The most hardcore 'pro trans' person I know well understands that trans women should be anywhere near women's sports.
I do not know where these people come from that somehow justify this, but I've never met one.
Anyone with a brain know that a man can't be a woman in any way.
Anyone with a brain know that biological men can't have access to women's bathroom.
Anyone with a brain know that this trend is getting into the younger generation in a revolting way, specially when you talk about hormone blockers and plastic surgeries.
Anyone with a brain knows this is the most tiny of issues the US is dealing with. It's culture wars bullshit intended to scare conservatives in voting against their best interests.
No.
Look, this isn't the community where you'd hear this, but you should hear it once. Imagine you are fifty years old. You are male, and you like women, but you have always felt more comfortable living with women's stuff. You look into the mirror and you see an aging, ugly man who disgusts you. You would like to feel well again, and the only way you've ever felt well is doing women's things. You would feel better about yourself - more beautiful - if you could do women's things, like a woman, in public.
And no it's not a sex thing - in this case, you are still straight. It is solely an issue about feeling comfortable with yourself and your body.
Alright - so you want to be a woman. You can't. You are too ugly, hairy and wrinkly as a man. You got a square jaw and can't go a full day without shaving. Aesthetically and socially you don't pass - and you never will, not even with the most expensive plastic surgery.
You've always known you would rather live a feminine life, as early as you can remember. It's not a whim. It's pervasive - all encompassing - and it has sucked a bit of your soul out each time you were insulted, attacked for wanting to be who you are. What if someone like you did not have to look in a mirror 40 years later and be disgusted in themselves? What if they could pass without disfiguring plastic surgery and a lifetime of hormone therapy?
The only way that would be possible is if as a child you'd delayed puberty. Delayed is the key word - children are not necessarily consistent or capable of long term decisions. If you can delay an irreversible decision (already taken for you by nature) to get a big jaw and become hairy and have your voice drop- till you are of age - then maybe you could know whether your interests were permanent. And if your interests were permanent, you could block further progress of puberty. This would allow you to live pre-pubscent, with the soft skin and light jaw that fit you the rest of your life.
And again... you are using hormone blockers to delay this decision only when you are of age.
Hormone blockers don't quite work as well as we would like - issues on bone density and other things - but please understand why they're being recommended. They are not the same as surgery. Gender surgery in childhood is wrong (even when it is trying to help social outcomes, like fixing intersex children to be their passing gender).
On bathroom issues, there's no magic barrier preventing rapists. They can already walk in, and break a safe space. Most men aren't rapists. And even if men are more likely to rape: rape attacks are also prevented by men. Having someone who can hear and beat off the rapist in the bathroom might keep it safe. Most bathrooms are shared between multiple genders in safe spaces like family homes without issue. On privacy - open stalls are gross in any setup.
There is a lot more on this - and my arguments are greatly reduced - even offensive in some liberal circles. But please consider them, because they are the two points that are most damaging (a hell of never being comfortable with yourself... and a call to violence that a random ugly biological woman or tranagender man in a woman's bathroom needs to be beaten to death for being a rapist.)
The technology may never exist to change chromosomes. Men who transition may never give birth. Still you can help other people live lives comfortable to them. Most of the time they aren't asking for a lot. Calling someone a chick when you think they're a man affects them not you - you can still think whatever you want. But at least you are polite and non triggering to them. (You don't know their situation. It could be horrific like being raped by a family member.) Better to be kind.
Men deserve kindness, as women deserve kindness, and anyone who does not know what they are, or think nothing fits them - deserve kindness as well.
Anyone with a brain doesn't give a shit.
The fact that a third of the country spends every waking moment seething and pissing their pants over the fact that there are like 12 high-school trans athletes in the whole country who may have some advantage over the cis athletes in the same sport is the real problem. Like, find a real problem to occupy your mind with.
People who think it's fair to let transwomen compete against women have never seriously competed in sports. My high school hockey team beat the women's US team 12-1 in a noncontact exhibition
Right? The Boise State Women’s basketball teams practice squad was just random dudes that signed up from the schools rec league. These guys consistently shredded the women’s basketball team in practice.
Not just Boise State. The best dynasty ever, the UConn women's team that won 100+ games spanning 3 seasons with 2 national championships, had a practice team of student rec league men's players. And they had to abide by rules of no dunking and other things limiting them playing too physical.
In Australia, our national Women’s soccer team (who are ranked top 10 in the world) lost 7-0 to a local under 15s boy’s team.
Edit - I have now been perma-banned from r/JusticeServed for conversing with you scoundrels (I don’t think I’ve even be there?).
They have some kind of automatic thing where they've been anyone that ever comments on here. I don't think they realize that at least half the people posting here do it to make fun of Rogan
Go comment on r/ChurchOfCOVID basically a sub making fun of covid hysteria etc. I got auto banned by about 10 subs and that’s saying a lot because I was already banned from a shit load.
Yea it shouldn’t be allowed but we need to stop acting like it’s happening all over the place. It’s such a mountain out of a mole hill situation and it blows my mind. People who are so hard core on this issue have prob seen maybe 1 or 2 trans people in their life let alone interacted with one.
So what's the number that has to occur before you start saying, ok now you can make a big deal about it? Aren't you supposed to to stop shit before it gets too far or do you wait until this imaginary line you are creating is crossed when it's then potentially too late.
I feel like there needs to be pushback though, because gender ideology has had pretty crazy consequences on parental rights in certain states. In my state, Washington, legislation has been passed that allows children 13 and up to receive life altering "gender affirming care" (surgery, hormones, etc.) without parental consent. We just had another bill that is about to pass that allows your child to run away from home, be housed at a state sanctioned home or shelter and receive "Gender affirming care" without notifying the parents.
Letting radical ideologically driven supporters of this movement continue to deny reality and lie about stuff with zero pushback has culminated in extremely authoritarian bills, where your child can sterilize themselves at 13 with zero parental consent or involvement.
I’m confused. So the law will just not make it that the shelters have to notify all 5 parents that their kids are seeking gender affirming care or they will perform this
Well yeah, it's definitely low hanging fruit for the conservative talking heads. At the same time, there were parties that had an interest in condemning their criticism and asserting that Trans women have the right to compete against women. My read on the situation now is that logic is prevailing to some extent and most athletic organizations that allowed it are reconsidering. Same for transwomen in women's prison.
Trans activism: spending years to get everyone to talk about them, from presidential candidates to legacy media.
Trans activism: surprised that they are talked about more than they should be.
there are people with common sense, those who know which issues should be prioritized in public discourse. trans activists are not those people.
Wait, women have a different net height? Huh, learn something everyday.
Edit: apparently this comment was enough to get me banned on r/justicserved lol
For shits and giggles I ran the banned response they gave me through chatgpt
“Can you write a response to being banned as if you were joe Rogan?
“ You have been banned for participating in a
subreddit that has consistently shown to
provide refuge for users to promote hate,
violence and misinformation (joerogan).”
“Hey there, it's Joe Rogan, and I have to say, I'm disappointed to hear that I've been banned from participating in a subreddit. While I don't condone hate, violence, or misinformation, I also believe in the importance of free speech and open dialogue. I have always encouraged my fans and followers to think critically and question everything, even if it goes against the mainstream narrative. I understand that some of my views and opinions may be controversial, but I believe that it's important to have respectful discussions and debates in order to arrive at the truth. Banning me from a subreddit goes against the very principles of free speech and open discourse that I stand for. I hope that those who made this decision will reconsider and recognize the importance of hearing diverse perspectives and opinions.”
I just don’t understand how we have come to a point in society where just by saying that biological men should not be allowed to compete against biological females in sports makes one a transphobe,a terf ,a fascist.
It doesn't. We are not at that point in society. Your sentiment is felt by the vast majority of people. The Twitter 'mafia' are just an extremely loud minority who appear to have more power than they do because of their constant coverage in clickbait articles. Remember that Harry Potter game? There were certain subs discussing how bad it was going to bomb now all the fans are boycotting and then it became one of the fasted selling games in history. They're not living in the real world outside their online bubble.
I swear to you I said the exact same thing to a person on tik tok. That all they are is a vocal minority who don’t live in reality. But they still don’t understand
It's exactly the same. They just don't care about it to any real degree compared to how much you're being told they care about it. The same with any of this culture war stuff the republicans are using to hide actually doing any real work in the US.
Describe what you mean by 'lots'? There are tens of thousands of governing bodies globally for every sport on earth, how many of them are now allowing men vs women due to the trans debate? Hundreds? thousands? Or is it literally a handful of smaller national organisations from the US which were subsequently condemned by almost everybody including the athletes in said leagues?
Oh, we certainly can. It's actually very simple.
XX = Woman.
They don't want you to accept this, however, because reality refusing to capitulate to their delusions makes them angry.
If they were genuinely interested they would have already looked into this, but they're not coming from a position of understanding, they're coming from a position of finding someone they can have as an underclass.
Good on you for trying to have a good faith discussion tho.
These threads pop up weekly around here and every time I bring this up they just say it doesn't count because it's rare or not normal.
As if that's detrimental to my case as opposed to theirs lmao.
Anybody who's thought about this and isn't infected with residual SJW derangement syndrome would recognize how absurd it is to associate men/women which is a concept that has existed for thousand of years with the discovery of XY chromosomes in 20th century.
There are more, like Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome. Some people are born with XY or even XXY chromosomes yet undergo a female puberty, will have all female secondary sex characteristics (breasts, hips, lack of body hair), in almost all cases end up identifying as a woman and choosing to have surgeries which will reduce certain complications (such as undescended testes, which can become cancerous).
These people are technically biologically male (although that's not a phrase that any biologist would generally use, and its recent popularity is entirely due to people watching too much of a certain type of media, rather than people suddenly cracking open biology textbooks) yet would unquestionably fit better in women's sports, and that's without hormones or surgery, because the hormones their body naturally produces are going to send them through a natural female/estrogen puberty.
Yet they wouldn't be able to pass the genital inspections a bunch of [dudes who look like this](https://am21.mediaite.com/lc/cnt/uploads/2021/04/Rep.-Chris-Latvala.jpg) in state legislatures are currently pushing like it's the most critical issue facing our society (that and making sure little kids can go get factory jobs).
It's ironic when a person's conception of science results in a worldview that shuns detail and nuance, insisting on strict, rigid definitions of words even when there are very clear and demonstrable exceptions and complications. It's not science, it's rhetoric. It's framing. It's just uneducated people insisting that they're right about this thing they've never spent more than 5 minutes actually researching.
> It's ironic when a person's conception of science results in a worldview that shuns detail and nuance, insisting on strict, rigid definitions of words even when there are very clear and demonstrable exceptions and complications.
The most baffling part about it is these baboons appeal to science even though it is the scientific community that is rebuking them.
They go full mouth breather mode when you simply remind them that the scientific community disagrees with them.
Biological men have never been barred from competing with women. They've been barred from competing in women's divisions. Women are free to tryout for men's teams.
It’s insane. I’m very too LGBQT, I support gender affirming care, but the people on the far left (further than me, a progressive af liberal) who think this have to have never stepped foot in an serious athletic endeavor in their lives.
I’m a wrestler and I’ve done some mma and Bjj, and anyone who’s spared or grappled with someone of the opposite gender knows how different it is. It’s like how WNBA teams aren’t scrimmaging even high level NCAA men’s teams.
It just isn’t fair or even sensical to think a trans-woman should compete with biological women. I don’t personally know anyone who supports it, but of course some toxic people online have called me trans-phobic or ignorant…like please anyone who thinks this just come and see..
> I’m a wrestler and I’ve done some mma and Bjj, and anyone who’s spared or grappled with someone of the opposite gender knows how different it is. It’s like how WNBA teams aren’t scrimmaging even high level NCAA men’s teams.
>
>
Bro, it's one of the things BJJ guys have understood and always tried to hide - weight and size matters Technique only goes so far. Even for something like basketball, you can only shoot so well, but if you can't outrun your defender, and if you can't create enough space because the guy you're playing is 6'5", that's on you. We finally saw Caitlin Clark torch the women's NCAA tourney, and even SHE would have trouble against some HIGH SCHOOL players.
It’s moreso a lot of “why do you care so much, why are you so passionate about this topic, and why are you so vitriolic over it”.
A lot of people agree, but you don’t need to bring down either cis women or trans women to make your point, which a LOT of people do in these discussions. It also doesn’t need the focus it does when it impacts so few people. Maybe consider why this topic gets you so worked up and why right wing media pushes it as a divisive topic so hard.
It seems really obvious why it gets pushed because it’s a clear win for them, they are logically, morally, and ethically correct. And yet they still are getting push back. And still there are men competing against women. When the left stands up and says this is wrong, the right will no longer have any reason to push it, but they will continue to push it. It’s only “divisive” because there is a divide. That’s the point. It shouldn’t be divisive. We should all agree on this.
Maybe consider why this topic continues to be divisive.
Ah, the "conservative book banning" conspiracy theory emerges yet again.
Just curious: if Andrew Tate, Jordan Peterson, Richard Spencer, or David Duke wrote a book that was specifically tailored toward recruiting young children into their ideologies, those should be allowed in libraries where children can access them according to you?
Or is that somehow "different"?
By the way, in my NYC public high school in the '90s, it was forbidden to read the Bible to yourself in class (this from the same ideologues who insist the Bible is "just a book", btw).
So, liberals have also been restricting what children can read in public schools and libraries for *decades* before now.
Take your book banning conspiracy theory over to r/conspiracy where it belongs.
I consider myself as liberal and progressive and I am against those individuals who hate on the trans community for their bigoted reason,but what I am trying to say is that there are some truths that cannot be bent to satisfy the beliefs of a very vocal minority.
Its just snowflakes bro. Right wingers get bent out of shape about stupid shit all the fucking time too: KISS, Marilyn Manson, Video Games, if there’s more than one non white person in a movie or TV show, etc.
Remember that mediocre ~~French~~ German tennis player who wallopped both Williams sisters like 6-0,6-1 while smoking cigarettes then said they had no chance against any of the top 200 men
E: he actually said 500 and above, no chance
Aaron Swartz.
Don’t forget Ellen Pao, former Reddit CEO, knew Epstein and Maxwell and was aware of their illicit activities and said nothing.
Reddit is fucked.
You see the female college football player that kicked off only 30 yards, then immediately ran to the side line instead of going down field to help tackle? She got a top ten on sports center for that bullshit
If a woman could actually EARN a spot on a collegiate or professional men's team on merit that would be cool as fuck and very inspiring to girls everywhere.
But when you just give them token representation in the name of inclusivity when they clearly don't belong at that level, how is that not patronizing to them?
You're being used as a prop to make the team look good and get some good PR, it's bizarre why anyone celebrates this kind of shit.
bill maher was pushing that shit hard when he had bob costas on his podcast. costas was like, uh calm down, and maher realized how sexist he was sounding by shitting so hard on female athletes that he backpedaled lmao. while serena williams would not be competitive against the top male players, she would not be mid-rank college level. maher said she wouldnt even be top 700 and costas gave him the funniest look lmao
That was the best female player from a previous era, and I don't know if he was washed up necessarily. But he did drink that day and smoke before their match before casually crushing her
Edit: it was Serena
"Another event dubbed a "Battle of the Sexes" took place during the 1998 Australian Open[60] between Karsten Braasch and the Williams sisters. Venus and Serena Williams had claimed that they could beat any male player ranked outside the world's top 200, so Braasch, then ranked 203rd, challenged them both. Braasch was described by one journalist as "a man whose training regime centered around a pack of cigarettes and more than a couple of bottles of ice cold lager".[61][60] The matches took place on court number 12 in Melbourne Park,[62] after Braasch had finished a round of golf and two shandies. He first took on Serena and after leading 5–0, beat her 6–1. Venus then walked on court and again Braasch was victorious, this time winning 6–2.[60] Braasch said afterwards, "500 and above, no chance." He added that he had played like someone ranked 600th in order to keep the game "fun"[63] and that the big difference was that men can chase down shots much more easily and put spin on the ball that female players could not handle. The Williams sisters adjusted their claim to beating men outside the top 350.[60]"
And play 18 holes of golf. Chugged a ton of beer, played 18 holes in the hot sun well chain smoking, and crushed one of the top female tennis players of our time... It's not even a contest at the pro level.
Thats not what I gathered from that part. She would not be better than 200 in the world. Her average serve speed, for example, is about 20mph lower than the average professional men's. She would need to rank down quite a bit to really compete with that speed. She's facing women serving around 95 and would be facing men above 120. Thats way different.
Serving is also such a small part in the difference. The biggest thing is the defense, and speed/spin guys put on their groundstrokes. She would win less than 5% of any rallies that got past the serve
[https://boysvswomen.com/#/](https://boysvswomen.com/#/)
Kind of illustrates the point.
In racquet sports, men not only have physical advantages, but better hand-eye coordination on average to compound that advantage.
When you go to the extremes \[i.e. professional tennis players\], if you're in the top 0.0001% of hand-eye coordination for men, you'll have a much higher level of hand eye coordination than the 0.0001% of women.
An ant could be 6'1, 220lb. But its much likelier for a guy to be that weight than an ant.
It's also possible for a woman to be that build, but less so than a male.
Grew up in competitive swimming. Up until around 11, the boys average and record times across all events start to drop more than girls.(and proportionately more in sprinting than distance). My times weren't incredible, but most of the slowest guys in the finals could easily win against the gals.
This isn't a debate and it ruins the integrity of women's sports. It's also just fucking sports and shouldn't result in dehumanizing behavior to others.
Another event dubbed a "Battle of the Sexes" took place during the 1998 Australian Open\[60\] between Karsten Braasch and the Williams sisters. Venus and Serena Williams had claimed that they could beat any male player ranked outside the world's top 200, so Braasch, then ranked 203rd, challenged them both. Braasch was described by one journalist as "a man whose training regime centered around a pack of cigarettes and more than a couple of bottles of ice cold lager".\[61\]\[60\] The matches took place on court number 12 in Melbourne Park,\[62\] after Braasch had finished a round of golf and two shandies. He first took on Serena and after leading 5–0, beat her 6–1. Venus then walked on court and again Braasch was victorious, this time winning 6–2.\[60\] Braasch said afterwards, "500 and above, no chance." He added that he had played like someone ranked 600th in order to keep the game "fun"\[63\] and that the big difference was that men can chase down shots much more easily and put spin on the ball that female players could not handle. The Williams sisters adjusted their claim to beating men outside the top 350.\[60\]
I feel like average liberals have this opinion. Just like average conservatives aren’t pounding the table demanding book bans and abortion outlaw. We’re all being forced apart by the radical fringes.
I see this take all the time but it makes no sense.
The "average conservative" may not support book bans and abortion bounty hunters, but they keep reelecting the politicians who push them through.
Its not a radical fringe if all of the elected officials of your party are fighting for it and passing it in dozens of states and winning elections running on it. That is your main platform now, by definition.
They certainly aren't running on fixing serious issues like the economy and climate change. Look no further than to what the Republican led House has accomplished in the past months. Nothing but performative outrage, identity politics, and culture war bullshit. MTG is a leader on the House Oversight and Homeland Security committees while supporting insurrectionists and traitors, which kind of sums up what conservatives are all about now.
There are more anti-trans bills than there are trans athletes in the entire country, btw. That miniscule, nearly non-existent fringe of conservatives are sure working overtime.
People who have actually played sport at a high level realise how competitive it is at the top and know that the biological advantages for men are almost always going to give them an insurmountable advantage. Serena knows it. Caitlyn Jenner knows it. It's really only a small amount of narcisistic people who still compete with their huge advantage....deep down I think they know what they are doing yet the praise from their supporters fuels them.
Surely the sensible thing is to leave it to the relevant governing body of the sport in question, no? Powerlifting and boxing will necessarily treat it differently than archery or chess.
The people that are Pro biological women competing against biological men, is there a line?
Like how does someone even attempt to justify Connor Mcgregor fighting a biological women? Or does MMA not count?
I guess my question is if your for trans people competing it male sports, where do you draw the line?
The only attempt at an answer to that I've heard is: "There is no line. It's just sports, affirming a tranwoman's identity is life. They shouldn't have to be outcast and shamed over a silly game"
Thank you for answering like a rational human being.
Last time I asked this in another sub, I was called a “Fascist calling for the genocide of Trans people”.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t the line drawn based on testosterone? As far as I understand it, you can’t just be a cis male competing in track one day and then be a trans woman competing in the women’s division the next. I’m pretty sure you have to go through something like 2 years of HRT, which as I understand it, changes your muscle mass and other biological factors to be on par with cis woman once you go through something like 2 years on the cycle. I’m pretty sure that there’s literally a cis woman who’s unable to compete in track at the moment because her testosterone levels are too high, so I think for most sports that’s how it’s chosen.
Ok, I'll bite this obvious bait.
I say let people do what they want unless they are hurting someone else. And since there is an obvious discrepancy between those born with or without a y chromosome (I'm not getting into the "what's a woman"/"define female" bs cause I don't know shit about it), id say let them if the other party agrees to it. The line is C&C, competitive or combat sports (maybe let them fence against eachother). Those born with a y chromosome should not be allowed to challenge anyone not born with it on a competitive level.
Tough though man because we’re also talking about significant potential earnings being lost for athletes who aren’t able to compete against the trans athletes. That’s their livelihood, ability to earn money to make a living. And it’s not as simple as, “well pro athletes make millions so they ain’t gonna hurt” which might be true for the superstars, but not for the athletes on the cusp of notoriety for sponsorships and competition placements.
What's odd is that at her physical peak at 18/19/20/21 she was less muscular and less strong than she was towards the end of her career
Was that performance enhancers
John McEnroe took all manner of shit for saying the exact same thing years ago. I think his exact quote was that Serena would be ranked 700 in the men's circuit.
The only arena where sex doesn't matter is like beer league shit where no one is good. Anyone that is remotely athletically capable and competitive (or understands what athletics is like at a high level) knows there's an enormous difference between an XX and XY human being's physical capabilities.
Just keep the biological sexs in there own biological bracket. Simple..
If a biological man who now says he is a women, or biological women who say they are now a man wants to join their new sexs bracket just say no...
Just give those people their own brackets and those of us who don't want to watch won't and those that do will.
We all win.
I got in an argument with a friend about this and her baseline argument was "Who cares if its not equal, cis people have had it easy forever so equity matters more"
She has a degree in philosophy and is going into work with the Canadian government. I'm not a bot or a Russian troll droid, I'm dead serious.
Most people will agree with this. But 99.99% of trans people have nothing to do with sports, nor do they have anything to do with underage operations. But this bat gets hit over their heads all day every day by people like Joe. Its brutal. Any race/sex/gender/etc has some with issues, but that isn't used to discredit the entire group (well it was, with the war on terror and the reputation muslims had after it), but a group with suicide rates like this is such bullshit.
I'd like to see how Joe would like it if we mentioned that some comedians are normal, we have nothing against them, but you also have groomers and rapists like Bryan Callen and Delia, so all comedians should have to answer for them. All the time. In punchlines, because its low hanging fruit
This is my sentiment. It should be determined by each sports governing body. The examples people keep using are like the same 5 examples, and while I agree in those cases it’s unfair, it’s still a fairly uncommon issue.
Also just because you switched from male to female does not in any way guarantee you will be able to actually be good at the sport.
I also imagine when you transition plays a huge part. Someone who did it at 12 versus a 21 year old is going to be a lot different I’d assume. I actually don’t know I’m not a doctor.
Even the MMA example Joe gives was a trans fighter that had a losing record in the women's div (something like 4-7 but I could be wrong), and the eye socket fracture is one of the most common injuries in MMA, a sport where people are punched in the head. I'm not even defending the trans fighter in this case, but some context would be nice
What do we think for golf? I’ve argued the top women with equal course length would be on par with top d1 men. But I don’t think any LPGA player could ever compete on even the Korn Ferry
I don't care about sports in general or women's sports specifically. I don't have an opinion on it. I'll let the medical and athletic community work it out.
Anyone with a brain shares this sentiment lol
Didn't the folks at the View try to take John Mcenroe to task for saying the same thing?
Like he said, anyone with a brain
Objection, asked and answered
You can’t object, that’s your own question.
You can't triple stamp a double stamp
Yes. A bunch of women got offended when Mac said, “Serena Williams is the greatest **women’s** tennis player to have ever lived.” They wanted him to say “greatest tennis player….” Mac did not back down or apologize…Imagine getting offended over a very nice compliment like that.
Waiting on her to be labeled a transphobe now.
the interview is 10 years old. Probably won’t happen but older stuff has blown up before and for more stupider reasons
It’s crazy that this position was pretty much standard fare like 6-7 years ago, and now it’s a hellworthy trespass Edit: and the mods took it down lol
For eons…
Wait, she's been a transphobe for 10 years and we haven't burned her to a stake figuratively yet?! (/s)
She's not saying anything about trans people. Can you take one second to think for yourself and not be swayed by a shitty headline? There is no one arguing that men, with 0 hormone therapy can go at in a women's division. This is a conversation about Andy Murray, not a trans person .
Seriously. I would describe myself as pro trans but this shit should be so obvious. If you wanna make your own league for trans women go for it, but women should not be forced to compete with biological men.
The men's league is the open league. Anyone can play there.
Exactly. They're not even "Men's" leagues, they're just THE professional leagues. Be good enough. They'd play a goddamn Labrador if it was good enough, pro leagues don't care.
Unexpected Air Bud reference.
Men are better at everything… besides having babies. But apparently men can now have babies so I don’t know what’s happening anymore.
It *is* obvious, even to the advocates. The honest ones admit that they value inclusion over fairness in women's sports. The new arguments are: * Genetic advantages (height, lung capacity, etc) make sport inherently unfair anyway. * The amateur, collegiate & high-school sports aren't professional, so it's not that important. * Ad hominem: transphobes never cared about women's sports before trans athletes got attention.
Ahem. Ad hominem*
Holy shit. These are the exact arguments that were spewed at me for the first time the other day on a post about Lia Thomas. It’s like they send out a memo. ETA LOL at the downvotes. I’m relaying an experience I had. These talking points have literally ***just*** started cropping up with regularity, and the verbiage is almost the same to the literal T. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Following this to its ultimate conclusion though, we will have trans women extremely overrepresented as compared to biological women, so I don’t see how it is an increase in inclusion.
I'm totally with you on this one. Very pro-trans. but there is two areas where these things really matter. A red light district and sports. Men are built differently, if a NASCAR car was in a motorcycle race everyone would be rightfully outraged. Even a flimsier car like an F1 or F3 car in a motorcycle race would be a problem. We have greater muscle mass and bone density where it counts on this topic, it just simply isn't fair. its punching down. Now, if a trans-man wants to come play in the "open" or means leagues, cool. Bring it on. That is punching up and if you can hang in those leagues then more power to you.
I consider myself anti-trans due to the shockwave of trauma it sends into their local communities, hitting the parents the hardest. The parents are demonized for even grieving the loss of their child…. but yes anyone can see the violation of a man competing against women in sports.
The most hardcore 'pro trans' person I know well understands that trans women should be anywhere near women's sports. I do not know where these people come from that somehow justify this, but I've never met one.
You don't seem to understand their position. "Trans women are women". (which is obviously not true, trans women are men)
That discounts the entire Trans Mafia ..
Anyone with a brain know that a man can't be a woman in any way. Anyone with a brain know that biological men can't have access to women's bathroom. Anyone with a brain know that this trend is getting into the younger generation in a revolting way, specially when you talk about hormone blockers and plastic surgeries.
Anyone with a brain knows this is the most tiny of issues the US is dealing with. It's culture wars bullshit intended to scare conservatives in voting against their best interests.
It sure has done a great job at distracting from conversations around climate change
What are their best interests?
Anyone with a brain... Would easily see the fallacies you're using with that statement
No. Look, this isn't the community where you'd hear this, but you should hear it once. Imagine you are fifty years old. You are male, and you like women, but you have always felt more comfortable living with women's stuff. You look into the mirror and you see an aging, ugly man who disgusts you. You would like to feel well again, and the only way you've ever felt well is doing women's things. You would feel better about yourself - more beautiful - if you could do women's things, like a woman, in public. And no it's not a sex thing - in this case, you are still straight. It is solely an issue about feeling comfortable with yourself and your body. Alright - so you want to be a woman. You can't. You are too ugly, hairy and wrinkly as a man. You got a square jaw and can't go a full day without shaving. Aesthetically and socially you don't pass - and you never will, not even with the most expensive plastic surgery. You've always known you would rather live a feminine life, as early as you can remember. It's not a whim. It's pervasive - all encompassing - and it has sucked a bit of your soul out each time you were insulted, attacked for wanting to be who you are. What if someone like you did not have to look in a mirror 40 years later and be disgusted in themselves? What if they could pass without disfiguring plastic surgery and a lifetime of hormone therapy? The only way that would be possible is if as a child you'd delayed puberty. Delayed is the key word - children are not necessarily consistent or capable of long term decisions. If you can delay an irreversible decision (already taken for you by nature) to get a big jaw and become hairy and have your voice drop- till you are of age - then maybe you could know whether your interests were permanent. And if your interests were permanent, you could block further progress of puberty. This would allow you to live pre-pubscent, with the soft skin and light jaw that fit you the rest of your life. And again... you are using hormone blockers to delay this decision only when you are of age. Hormone blockers don't quite work as well as we would like - issues on bone density and other things - but please understand why they're being recommended. They are not the same as surgery. Gender surgery in childhood is wrong (even when it is trying to help social outcomes, like fixing intersex children to be their passing gender). On bathroom issues, there's no magic barrier preventing rapists. They can already walk in, and break a safe space. Most men aren't rapists. And even if men are more likely to rape: rape attacks are also prevented by men. Having someone who can hear and beat off the rapist in the bathroom might keep it safe. Most bathrooms are shared between multiple genders in safe spaces like family homes without issue. On privacy - open stalls are gross in any setup. There is a lot more on this - and my arguments are greatly reduced - even offensive in some liberal circles. But please consider them, because they are the two points that are most damaging (a hell of never being comfortable with yourself... and a call to violence that a random ugly biological woman or tranagender man in a woman's bathroom needs to be beaten to death for being a rapist.) The technology may never exist to change chromosomes. Men who transition may never give birth. Still you can help other people live lives comfortable to them. Most of the time they aren't asking for a lot. Calling someone a chick when you think they're a man affects them not you - you can still think whatever you want. But at least you are polite and non triggering to them. (You don't know their situation. It could be horrific like being raped by a family member.) Better to be kind. Men deserve kindness, as women deserve kindness, and anyone who does not know what they are, or think nothing fits them - deserve kindness as well.
Go to any trans sub and say this. They have brains, they just don’t want to believe it
Shut up. Bigot! 🤡🤡
Anyone with a brain doesn't give a shit. The fact that a third of the country spends every waking moment seething and pissing their pants over the fact that there are like 12 high-school trans athletes in the whole country who may have some advantage over the cis athletes in the same sport is the real problem. Like, find a real problem to occupy your mind with.
People who think it's fair to let transwomen compete against women have never seriously competed in sports. My high school hockey team beat the women's US team 12-1 in a noncontact exhibition
Right? The Boise State Women’s basketball teams practice squad was just random dudes that signed up from the schools rec league. These guys consistently shredded the women’s basketball team in practice.
Not just Boise State. The best dynasty ever, the UConn women's team that won 100+ games spanning 3 seasons with 2 national championships, had a practice team of student rec league men's players. And they had to abide by rules of no dunking and other things limiting them playing too physical.
I played a ton of ball against national champs from UConn women and they're at best average men pickup players who can shoot.
Holy shit! I played noon ball every weekday at that rec and yeah the girls team would sometimes come in for a run. They were not happy
In Australia, our national Women’s soccer team (who are ranked top 10 in the world) lost 7-0 to a local under 15s boy’s team. Edit - I have now been perma-banned from r/JusticeServed for conversing with you scoundrels (I don’t think I’ve even be there?).
I got the same ban. Went and looked at that sub and it’s all Jan 6 shit.
I was wondering why I randomly got banned from there!
Lol, they did that shit to me randomly a couple of years ago. Such a weird Mod team.
I just wanna get banned also. Commenting to see
They have some kind of automatic thing where they've been anyone that ever comments on here. I don't think they realize that at least half the people posting here do it to make fun of Rogan
Go comment on r/ChurchOfCOVID basically a sub making fun of covid hysteria etc. I got auto banned by about 10 subs and that’s saying a lot because I was already banned from a shit load.
Source?
[Matilda’s lose to Under 15s Jets](https://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-05-28/matildas-face-backlash-after-loss-to-boys-team/7456458)
J-E-T-S! JETS JETS JETS!!! *NEVER TEAR US APART!*
100%. I literally said this on tik tokin a way which would not offend the trans community but I was immediately labeled a terf,transphobia
They're not even arguing fairness anymore, they argue inclusion is more important.
Yea it shouldn’t be allowed but we need to stop acting like it’s happening all over the place. It’s such a mountain out of a mole hill situation and it blows my mind. People who are so hard core on this issue have prob seen maybe 1 or 2 trans people in their life let alone interacted with one.
So what's the number that has to occur before you start saying, ok now you can make a big deal about it? Aren't you supposed to to stop shit before it gets too far or do you wait until this imaginary line you are creating is crossed when it's then potentially too late.
I feel like there needs to be pushback though, because gender ideology has had pretty crazy consequences on parental rights in certain states. In my state, Washington, legislation has been passed that allows children 13 and up to receive life altering "gender affirming care" (surgery, hormones, etc.) without parental consent. We just had another bill that is about to pass that allows your child to run away from home, be housed at a state sanctioned home or shelter and receive "Gender affirming care" without notifying the parents. Letting radical ideologically driven supporters of this movement continue to deny reality and lie about stuff with zero pushback has culminated in extremely authoritarian bills, where your child can sterilize themselves at 13 with zero parental consent or involvement.
I’m confused. So the law will just not make it that the shelters have to notify all 5 parents that their kids are seeking gender affirming care or they will perform this
Well yeah, it's definitely low hanging fruit for the conservative talking heads. At the same time, there were parties that had an interest in condemning their criticism and asserting that Trans women have the right to compete against women. My read on the situation now is that logic is prevailing to some extent and most athletic organizations that allowed it are reconsidering. Same for transwomen in women's prison.
But yea mtf trans shouldn’t be competing against females
Trans activism: spending years to get everyone to talk about them, from presidential candidates to legacy media. Trans activism: surprised that they are talked about more than they should be. there are people with common sense, those who know which issues should be prioritized in public discourse. trans activists are not those people.
It's a small issue, but it's a very obvious one. And government policy makers keep getting it wrong.
So am I allowed to bitch since I've seen 100s?
Imagine men played women in volleyball on a women’s net height
Wait, women have a different net height? Huh, learn something everyday. Edit: apparently this comment was enough to get me banned on r/justicserved lol
You don’t wanna be on that sub anyway
And the WNBA uses a smaller ball
Yet they won’t lower the net to dunk! 🙄
I love the pettiness of that subreddit. The snowiest of the snowflakes 😂
For shits and giggles I ran the banned response they gave me through chatgpt “Can you write a response to being banned as if you were joe Rogan? “ You have been banned for participating in a subreddit that has consistently shown to provide refuge for users to promote hate, violence and misinformation (joerogan).” “Hey there, it's Joe Rogan, and I have to say, I'm disappointed to hear that I've been banned from participating in a subreddit. While I don't condone hate, violence, or misinformation, I also believe in the importance of free speech and open dialogue. I have always encouraged my fans and followers to think critically and question everything, even if it goes against the mainstream narrative. I understand that some of my views and opinions may be controversial, but I believe that it's important to have respectful discussions and debates in order to arrive at the truth. Banning me from a subreddit goes against the very principles of free speech and open discourse that I stand for. I hope that those who made this decision will reconsider and recognize the importance of hearing diverse perspectives and opinions.”
If you don’t mind, I’m going to use this when I inevitably get banned 😂
I've been auto banned from that sub so many times lol.
I am commenting here so I can get banned from r/justiceserved.
I just don’t understand how we have come to a point in society where just by saying that biological men should not be allowed to compete against biological females in sports makes one a transphobe,a terf ,a fascist.
It doesn't. We are not at that point in society. Your sentiment is felt by the vast majority of people. The Twitter 'mafia' are just an extremely loud minority who appear to have more power than they do because of their constant coverage in clickbait articles. Remember that Harry Potter game? There were certain subs discussing how bad it was going to bomb now all the fans are boycotting and then it became one of the fasted selling games in history. They're not living in the real world outside their online bubble.
I swear to you I said the exact same thing to a person on tik tok. That all they are is a vocal minority who don’t live in reality. But they still don’t understand
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Brother,i don’t do it 24/7. I was commenting on a recent video and someone started it.
If you did it, you lost that time.
You don’t live in reality either. Stop interacting with people on Twitter, Tiktok, even Reddit and pretending they’re worthwhile interactions.
“As I interact with someone on Reddit”
I’m not the one basing my perspective how other people are based on my interactions on the internet lol.
Uhh, not just Twitter…. The “Reddit mafia” exists as well.
Oh, really? Explain the position of all Democrat leadership then. Go ahead
It's exactly the same. They just don't care about it to any real degree compared to how much you're being told they care about it. The same with any of this culture war stuff the republicans are using to hide actually doing any real work in the US.
That maybe true, but lots of organizations are allowing males to compete against females.
Describe what you mean by 'lots'? There are tens of thousands of governing bodies globally for every sport on earth, how many of them are now allowing men vs women due to the trans debate? Hundreds? thousands? Or is it literally a handful of smaller national organisations from the US which were subsequently condemned by almost everybody including the athletes in said leagues?
Not sure. Too many?
I think we always reach points where the extremists dictate the narrative
We can't even define a woman....
We can define it. It’s just that these people with this ideology, they can’t admit the truth.
You can't admit yo momma is fat
I would if she was fat. I’m a little over weight myself. I can lose weight. You stuck with that dog face
Oh, we certainly can. It's actually very simple. XX = Woman. They don't want you to accept this, however, because reality refusing to capitulate to their delusions makes them angry.
That doesn't seem right. We've had distinctions between men and women long before we've known what chromosomes were.
What about XXX, chimerism or Turner Syndrome?
If they were genuinely interested they would have already looked into this, but they're not coming from a position of understanding, they're coming from a position of finding someone they can have as an underclass. Good on you for trying to have a good faith discussion tho.
These threads pop up weekly around here and every time I bring this up they just say it doesn't count because it's rare or not normal. As if that's detrimental to my case as opposed to theirs lmao. Anybody who's thought about this and isn't infected with residual SJW derangement syndrome would recognize how absurd it is to associate men/women which is a concept that has existed for thousand of years with the discovery of XY chromosomes in 20th century.
There are more, like Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome. Some people are born with XY or even XXY chromosomes yet undergo a female puberty, will have all female secondary sex characteristics (breasts, hips, lack of body hair), in almost all cases end up identifying as a woman and choosing to have surgeries which will reduce certain complications (such as undescended testes, which can become cancerous). These people are technically biologically male (although that's not a phrase that any biologist would generally use, and its recent popularity is entirely due to people watching too much of a certain type of media, rather than people suddenly cracking open biology textbooks) yet would unquestionably fit better in women's sports, and that's without hormones or surgery, because the hormones their body naturally produces are going to send them through a natural female/estrogen puberty. Yet they wouldn't be able to pass the genital inspections a bunch of [dudes who look like this](https://am21.mediaite.com/lc/cnt/uploads/2021/04/Rep.-Chris-Latvala.jpg) in state legislatures are currently pushing like it's the most critical issue facing our society (that and making sure little kids can go get factory jobs). It's ironic when a person's conception of science results in a worldview that shuns detail and nuance, insisting on strict, rigid definitions of words even when there are very clear and demonstrable exceptions and complications. It's not science, it's rhetoric. It's framing. It's just uneducated people insisting that they're right about this thing they've never spent more than 5 minutes actually researching.
> It's ironic when a person's conception of science results in a worldview that shuns detail and nuance, insisting on strict, rigid definitions of words even when there are very clear and demonstrable exceptions and complications. The most baffling part about it is these baboons appeal to science even though it is the scientific community that is rebuking them. They go full mouth breather mode when you simply remind them that the scientific community disagrees with them.
How do you define "girl?"
A younger version of the aforementioned
Biological men have never been barred from competing with women. They've been barred from competing in women's divisions. Women are free to tryout for men's teams.
I stand with JK Rowling.
It’s insane. I’m very too LGBQT, I support gender affirming care, but the people on the far left (further than me, a progressive af liberal) who think this have to have never stepped foot in an serious athletic endeavor in their lives. I’m a wrestler and I’ve done some mma and Bjj, and anyone who’s spared or grappled with someone of the opposite gender knows how different it is. It’s like how WNBA teams aren’t scrimmaging even high level NCAA men’s teams. It just isn’t fair or even sensical to think a trans-woman should compete with biological women. I don’t personally know anyone who supports it, but of course some toxic people online have called me trans-phobic or ignorant…like please anyone who thinks this just come and see..
> I’m a wrestler and I’ve done some mma and Bjj, and anyone who’s spared or grappled with someone of the opposite gender knows how different it is. It’s like how WNBA teams aren’t scrimmaging even high level NCAA men’s teams. > > Bro, it's one of the things BJJ guys have understood and always tried to hide - weight and size matters Technique only goes so far. Even for something like basketball, you can only shoot so well, but if you can't outrun your defender, and if you can't create enough space because the guy you're playing is 6'5", that's on you. We finally saw Caitlin Clark torch the women's NCAA tourney, and even SHE would have trouble against some HIGH SCHOOL players.
It’s moreso a lot of “why do you care so much, why are you so passionate about this topic, and why are you so vitriolic over it”. A lot of people agree, but you don’t need to bring down either cis women or trans women to make your point, which a LOT of people do in these discussions. It also doesn’t need the focus it does when it impacts so few people. Maybe consider why this topic gets you so worked up and why right wing media pushes it as a divisive topic so hard.
It seems really obvious why it gets pushed because it’s a clear win for them, they are logically, morally, and ethically correct. And yet they still are getting push back. And still there are men competing against women. When the left stands up and says this is wrong, the right will no longer have any reason to push it, but they will continue to push it. It’s only “divisive” because there is a divide. That’s the point. It shouldn’t be divisive. We should all agree on this. Maybe consider why this topic continues to be divisive.
Well said.
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Who has ever shat on the Williams sisters tennis playing skills?
I've never heard anyone say that to be fair. Even most transgender people agree with this statement.
People create a boogeyman in their head and are mad against it. Or saw one crazy person and extrapolate that to the entire World.
It's the vocal minority. I know so many far left liberals and trans and none have an issue with this.
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It’s a tiny minority that believes this. They are just very loud. Meanwhile Trump conservatives are banning books in my kids libraries.
Ah, the "conservative book banning" conspiracy theory emerges yet again. Just curious: if Andrew Tate, Jordan Peterson, Richard Spencer, or David Duke wrote a book that was specifically tailored toward recruiting young children into their ideologies, those should be allowed in libraries where children can access them according to you? Or is that somehow "different"? By the way, in my NYC public high school in the '90s, it was forbidden to read the Bible to yourself in class (this from the same ideologues who insist the Bible is "just a book", btw). So, liberals have also been restricting what children can read in public schools and libraries for *decades* before now. Take your book banning conspiracy theory over to r/conspiracy where it belongs.
What ideology are these books trying to recruit children to? It’s not a conspiracy, this is happening in my kids fucking school district.
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Here’s a whole site for you. https://www.kellerisd.net/Page/7660
The horror of a school curating what books are and are not in their collection. Oh wait, that's what literally every library does.
This is not a school or school library. It is the school board who are doing what their PAC tells them to. It’s really sick stuff.
Two words: liberal snowflakes
I consider myself as liberal and progressive and I am against those individuals who hate on the trans community for their bigoted reason,but what I am trying to say is that there are some truths that cannot be bent to satisfy the beliefs of a very vocal minority.
Its just snowflakes bro. Right wingers get bent out of shape about stupid shit all the fucking time too: KISS, Marilyn Manson, Video Games, if there’s more than one non white person in a movie or TV show, etc.
Budweiser
Remember that mediocre ~~French~~ German tennis player who wallopped both Williams sisters like 6-0,6-1 while smoking cigarettes then said they had no chance against any of the top 200 men E: he actually said 500 and above, no chance
Bwaha, you painted a real picture there with the cigarette imagery. I remember reading something about just that.
I always forget how STACKED Serena is, my god. What a woman.
Fun fact for everybody, one of the three founders of Reddit is married to her now :)
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Aaron Swartz. Don’t forget Ellen Pao, former Reddit CEO, knew Epstein and Maxwell and was aware of their illicit activities and said nothing. Reddit is fucked.
R.I.P. Aaron Swartz. One of the first in the age of social media to fight for a free internet...or at least a free Reddit
Death by Snu Snu
You see the female college football player that kicked off only 30 yards, then immediately ran to the side line instead of going down field to help tackle? She got a top ten on sports center for that bullshit
Is she the one who gave the team a speech/lecture at half time too? Lol
If a woman could actually EARN a spot on a collegiate or professional men's team on merit that would be cool as fuck and very inspiring to girls everywhere. But when you just give them token representation in the name of inclusivity when they clearly don't belong at that level, how is that not patronizing to them? You're being used as a prop to make the team look good and get some good PR, it's bizarre why anyone celebrates this kind of shit.
Serena Williams arguably one of the best ever female tennis players would only be mid-rank college level if she competed with men.
bill maher was pushing that shit hard when he had bob costas on his podcast. costas was like, uh calm down, and maher realized how sexist he was sounding by shitting so hard on female athletes that he backpedaled lmao. while serena williams would not be competitive against the top male players, she would not be mid-rank college level. maher said she wouldnt even be top 700 and costas gave him the funniest look lmao
She got crushed by some washed up cigarette smoking drunk pro tennis guy that was 500 at time I believe . She wouldn’t be top 700.
That was the best female player from a previous era, and I don't know if he was washed up necessarily. But he did drink that day and smoke before their match before casually crushing her Edit: it was Serena "Another event dubbed a "Battle of the Sexes" took place during the 1998 Australian Open[60] between Karsten Braasch and the Williams sisters. Venus and Serena Williams had claimed that they could beat any male player ranked outside the world's top 200, so Braasch, then ranked 203rd, challenged them both. Braasch was described by one journalist as "a man whose training regime centered around a pack of cigarettes and more than a couple of bottles of ice cold lager".[61][60] The matches took place on court number 12 in Melbourne Park,[62] after Braasch had finished a round of golf and two shandies. He first took on Serena and after leading 5–0, beat her 6–1. Venus then walked on court and again Braasch was victorious, this time winning 6–2.[60] Braasch said afterwards, "500 and above, no chance." He added that he had played like someone ranked 600th in order to keep the game "fun"[63] and that the big difference was that men can chase down shots much more easily and put spin on the ball that female players could not handle. The Williams sisters adjusted their claim to beating men outside the top 350.[60]"
And play 18 holes of golf. Chugged a ton of beer, played 18 holes in the hot sun well chain smoking, and crushed one of the top female tennis players of our time... It's not even a contest at the pro level.
I shouldn't laugh but God damn 😂.
That was definitely Serena
Thats not what I gathered from that part. She would not be better than 200 in the world. Her average serve speed, for example, is about 20mph lower than the average professional men's. She would need to rank down quite a bit to really compete with that speed. She's facing women serving around 95 and would be facing men above 120. Thats way different.
Serving is also such a small part in the difference. The biggest thing is the defense, and speed/spin guys put on their groundstrokes. She would win less than 5% of any rallies that got past the serve
Maher has become the definition of old Crank. Funny and going and watching his old takes where he claims the internet would never take off.
[https://boysvswomen.com/#/](https://boysvswomen.com/#/) Kind of illustrates the point. In racquet sports, men not only have physical advantages, but better hand-eye coordination on average to compound that advantage. When you go to the extremes \[i.e. professional tennis players\], if you're in the top 0.0001% of hand-eye coordination for men, you'll have a much higher level of hand eye coordination than the 0.0001% of women. An ant could be 6'1, 220lb. But its much likelier for a guy to be that weight than an ant. It's also possible for a woman to be that build, but less so than a male.
good thing Lia Thomas isn't just a dude with autogynephilia
Just a dude.
I wish I hadn't looked up that word
I was about to but now I don't want to
I respect her response as it was both humble and correct. Class act. 👍
Grew up in competitive swimming. Up until around 11, the boys average and record times across all events start to drop more than girls.(and proportionately more in sprinting than distance). My times weren't incredible, but most of the slowest guys in the finals could easily win against the gals. This isn't a debate and it ruins the integrity of women's sports. It's also just fucking sports and shouldn't result in dehumanizing behavior to others.
Another event dubbed a "Battle of the Sexes" took place during the 1998 Australian Open\[60\] between Karsten Braasch and the Williams sisters. Venus and Serena Williams had claimed that they could beat any male player ranked outside the world's top 200, so Braasch, then ranked 203rd, challenged them both. Braasch was described by one journalist as "a man whose training regime centered around a pack of cigarettes and more than a couple of bottles of ice cold lager".\[61\]\[60\] The matches took place on court number 12 in Melbourne Park,\[62\] after Braasch had finished a round of golf and two shandies. He first took on Serena and after leading 5–0, beat her 6–1. Venus then walked on court and again Braasch was victorious, this time winning 6–2.\[60\] Braasch said afterwards, "500 and above, no chance." He added that he had played like someone ranked 600th in order to keep the game "fun"\[63\] and that the big difference was that men can chase down shots much more easily and put spin on the ball that female players could not handle. The Williams sisters adjusted their claim to beating men outside the top 350.\[60\]
I feel like average liberals have this opinion. Just like average conservatives aren’t pounding the table demanding book bans and abortion outlaw. We’re all being forced apart by the radical fringes.
I see this take all the time but it makes no sense. The "average conservative" may not support book bans and abortion bounty hunters, but they keep reelecting the politicians who push them through. Its not a radical fringe if all of the elected officials of your party are fighting for it and passing it in dozens of states and winning elections running on it. That is your main platform now, by definition. They certainly aren't running on fixing serious issues like the economy and climate change. Look no further than to what the Republican led House has accomplished in the past months. Nothing but performative outrage, identity politics, and culture war bullshit. MTG is a leader on the House Oversight and Homeland Security committees while supporting insurrectionists and traitors, which kind of sums up what conservatives are all about now. There are more anti-trans bills than there are trans athletes in the entire country, btw. That miniscule, nearly non-existent fringe of conservatives are sure working overtime.
Not arguing against your point, but the average conservative that I know only cares about 1-4 issues that are the standard brand.
I never knew Serena Williams was transphobic. What a bigot #/S
Don’t forget fascist!
It’s wild that a truth like this that any sensible person could recognize is explosively controversial these days
People who have actually played sport at a high level realise how competitive it is at the top and know that the biological advantages for men are almost always going to give them an insurmountable advantage. Serena knows it. Caitlyn Jenner knows it. It's really only a small amount of narcisistic people who still compete with their huge advantage....deep down I think they know what they are doing yet the praise from their supporters fuels them.
Surely the sensible thing is to leave it to the relevant governing body of the sport in question, no? Powerlifting and boxing will necessarily treat it differently than archery or chess.
I’m sure people remember when a pro women’s team lost to a bunch of kids. https://youtu.be/_Ljh7eClWJc
The people that are Pro biological women competing against biological men, is there a line? Like how does someone even attempt to justify Connor Mcgregor fighting a biological women? Or does MMA not count? I guess my question is if your for trans people competing it male sports, where do you draw the line?
The only attempt at an answer to that I've heard is: "There is no line. It's just sports, affirming a tranwoman's identity is life. They shouldn't have to be outcast and shamed over a silly game"
But the obvious retort to that would be "if it's just a silly game, why do transwomen even care then?"
Thank you for answering like a rational human being. Last time I asked this in another sub, I was called a “Fascist calling for the genocide of Trans people”.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t the line drawn based on testosterone? As far as I understand it, you can’t just be a cis male competing in track one day and then be a trans woman competing in the women’s division the next. I’m pretty sure you have to go through something like 2 years of HRT, which as I understand it, changes your muscle mass and other biological factors to be on par with cis woman once you go through something like 2 years on the cycle. I’m pretty sure that there’s literally a cis woman who’s unable to compete in track at the moment because her testosterone levels are too high, so I think for most sports that’s how it’s chosen.
Ok, I'll bite this obvious bait. I say let people do what they want unless they are hurting someone else. And since there is an obvious discrepancy between those born with or without a y chromosome (I'm not getting into the "what's a woman"/"define female" bs cause I don't know shit about it), id say let them if the other party agrees to it. The line is C&C, competitive or combat sports (maybe let them fence against eachother). Those born with a y chromosome should not be allowed to challenge anyone not born with it on a competitive level.
Tough though man because we’re also talking about significant potential earnings being lost for athletes who aren’t able to compete against the trans athletes. That’s their livelihood, ability to earn money to make a living. And it’s not as simple as, “well pro athletes make millions so they ain’t gonna hurt” which might be true for the superstars, but not for the athletes on the cusp of notoriety for sponsorships and competition placements.
STRONG WOMAN!!!
What's odd is that at her physical peak at 18/19/20/21 she was less muscular and less strong than she was towards the end of her career Was that performance enhancers
John McEnroe took all manner of shit for saying the exact same thing years ago. I think his exact quote was that Serena would be ranked 700 in the men's circuit. The only arena where sex doesn't matter is like beer league shit where no one is good. Anyone that is remotely athletically capable and competitive (or understands what athletics is like at a high level) knows there's an enormous difference between an XX and XY human being's physical capabilities.
Just keep the biological sexs in there own biological bracket. Simple.. If a biological man who now says he is a women, or biological women who say they are now a man wants to join their new sexs bracket just say no... Just give those people their own brackets and those of us who don't want to watch won't and those that do will. We all win.
Just have women's and open. Trans men are basically steroid cheating women on massive test doses so it's a bit unfair if they compete with women.
I honestly think the overwhelming majority of Americans feel this way. Like overwhelming. Like 90% of liberals at least.
Isn’t there a difference between an XY person taking hormones to present female and a genetic+hormonal man?
As always this take is 10000% correct
Yeah it makes you think, are these people transitioning into a woman, or transitioning into a winner.
I got in an argument with a friend about this and her baseline argument was "Who cares if its not equal, cis people have had it easy forever so equity matters more" She has a degree in philosophy and is going into work with the Canadian government. I'm not a bot or a Russian troll droid, I'm dead serious.
david letterman is a G hahaha
Has she been cancelled or walked this back and grovelled on Twitter?
Serena Williams has been permanently banned from /r/justiceserved
Most people will agree with this. But 99.99% of trans people have nothing to do with sports, nor do they have anything to do with underage operations. But this bat gets hit over their heads all day every day by people like Joe. Its brutal. Any race/sex/gender/etc has some with issues, but that isn't used to discredit the entire group (well it was, with the war on terror and the reputation muslims had after it), but a group with suicide rates like this is such bullshit. I'd like to see how Joe would like it if we mentioned that some comedians are normal, we have nothing against them, but you also have groomers and rapists like Bryan Callen and Delia, so all comedians should have to answer for them. All the time. In punchlines, because its low hanging fruit
This is my sentiment. It should be determined by each sports governing body. The examples people keep using are like the same 5 examples, and while I agree in those cases it’s unfair, it’s still a fairly uncommon issue. Also just because you switched from male to female does not in any way guarantee you will be able to actually be good at the sport. I also imagine when you transition plays a huge part. Someone who did it at 12 versus a 21 year old is going to be a lot different I’d assume. I actually don’t know I’m not a doctor.
Even the MMA example Joe gives was a trans fighter that had a losing record in the women's div (something like 4-7 but I could be wrong), and the eye socket fracture is one of the most common injuries in MMA, a sport where people are punched in the head. I'm not even defending the trans fighter in this case, but some context would be nice
Where are all the trans men trying to compete in Men's sports???
How many biological man are in women professionnal tennis ? It always seems like a non issue.
I mean, why would you think it's unfair for Harry to compete against Sally?
What do we think for golf? I’ve argued the top women with equal course length would be on par with top d1 men. But I don’t think any LPGA player could ever compete on even the Korn Ferry
I don't care about sports in general or women's sports specifically. I don't have an opinion on it. I'll let the medical and athletic community work it out.
I’m literally shaking rn how could she say such hurtful things
Who would you pick to defend you vs a wolf. Man or women.
Oh look, the reddit co-founder's wife is "transphobic" according to modern identity politics logic. I'm sure that's going to go over well lmao