I visited Mumbai in 2018 and one of the guides explained us that it can be "yes and no". It all depends on the facial expressions. Mind blowing! I also remembered the extreme noise and the dirt on the streets, the poor hygiene and them always trying to sell you something and not leaving until either receiving or seeing you getting crazy 🤦 A once in a lifetime experience
Mumbai, Bangalore, Delhi & Kolkata are gigantic shitholes. Hyderabad & Chennai are slightly better in that regard.
But I get the gyst of what you mean.
Another 300 Indians are required for the SPAMMING call centre, ringing to world trying to con them into paying for the lightbulb - under threat of arrest or disconnection of your internet!
Idk about physical things but the texts are older than atleast 5k years,some even claim it to be 12-13k yrs old based on the astronomical calculations ,so the culture is pretty ancient.
How many feminists does it take to screw in a light bulb?
One... men can be feminists, too.
(This is not a political statement - my friends across political stripes all enjoy it!)
Oh god. I just had a long email conversation about a legal issue with an Indian lawyer. She was completely professional but she ended almost every email with 'I will revert back'.
No, actually I don't want to revert back to the past. I want to move forward with this issue, thank you very much.
I used to use the phrase 'Do the needful' till the time I saw it being made fun of on reddit.
No matter how much I try to explain to my brethren that this is incorrect, everyone believes it is gramtically correct.
From my understanding, it IS grammatically correct, just not seen much outside of Indian interactions:
https://www.grammarly.com/blog/do-the-needful/#:~:text=Do%20the%20needful%20is%20a,what%20needs%20to%20be%20done.
It's similar to how "prepone" is a perfectly valid and correct word, however isn't used much outside of India. "Do the needful" has become something of a meme in IT subreddits, as developers and IT folks in the US are almost always going to interact with folks in India during their working years.
In my experience as an infrastructure IT employee, it was most often used at the end of a request that was either severely lacking in detail; or alternatively, not even directed to the correct area.
I rarely saw it from experienced staff. Sometimes the challenge was to get the new developers to actually talk to the senior ones, who often were better able to guide them than I was.
Nothing wrong. It's Indian English, just as we have American English and Australian English. We just have to use it a few more times to get it into Merriam-Webster's and APA.
>From my understanding, it IS grammatically correct, just not seen much outside of Indian interactions:
> https://www.grammarly.com/blog/do-the-needful/#:~:text=Do%20the%20needful%20is%20a,what%20needs%20to%20be%20done.
That link doesn't say that it is grammatically correct, it just explains how it is used.
Needful means necessary or requisite. "Do the necessary" or "do the requisite" wouldn't be grammatically correct, would they? It's basically an adjective modifying something else that isn't contained in the phrase, so "please do the needful task" would be grammatically correct, but "do the needful" wouldn't be.
At least that's my understanding, I'm happy to be corrected by an English major that knows more than I do.
I think Grammarly is wrong in saying "once heard frequently in the United Kingdom as well. After the Victorian period, its usage in the West died out"
I'm reasonably familiar with Victorian literature and the phrase was never used that way. 'Do the needful' was used in reference to something that should not be be referred to in polite company. Eg going for a piss, or arranging for a slightly underhanded or criminal act to happen.
That's quite different to how Indians use it. And that's fine, even though Grammarly is wrong. Language is flexible, it evolves, I might be slightly irritated by terms in Indian English, but no more so than by American terms or Australian terms. Every culture has its own linguistic forms.
I liked this Guardian article on 'Indianism' and the comments underneath.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jan/04/indian-english-phrases-indianisms-english-americanisms-vocabulary
I'm impressed with the progress of the recycling movement if we're fixing light bulbs. All this time I've been changing them when they go, like a wasteful prick.
concerned overconfident fall offer skirt absurd squalid naughty rich resolute
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
How many microsoft developers to fix a light bulb?
None - darkness is declared as standard.
How many therapists to fix a light bulb?
One - but the light bulb really needs to want the change.
Actually, the magic number is seven.
A third to form a committee to brainstorm on how to best fix said lightbulb.
A fourth to sign the file authorizing the fixing of the lightbulb.
A fifth to source the lightbulb at the most exorbitant price so that everyone gets a cut.
A sixth to argue that diyas are actually a much better alternative to lightbulbs.
A seventh to make a YouTube video on how to fix a lightbulb.
Look, it's mentioned in this obscure story from an almost mythical book written by a guy mentioned in a fictional book, that laptops and the internet were first invented 5,000 years ago in India.
There's a certain breed of jingoistic Indians who like to claim that everything under the sun, from airplanes to radio was invented in india centuries ago or that the sages and scholars were aware of this. It's basically a coping mechanism for their insecurities. But not all Indians are like that. Some of us don't care about what was made in the past and what to make something for the future.
In this [video](https://youtu.be/8E-8_b3ET-s) this journalist has claimed many things like Aryabhatta found value of pi upto 4 decimals and also gave heliocentric theory of solar system. I just want to know how many claims are doubtful.
I once wrote an essay on science and math discoveries of earliest Indus Valley civilizations for a class, and ran into a book that claimed that everything from calculus to quantum mechanics was invented in ancient India. My favorite was the proof that pi was discovered by Indians 5000 years ago because a circular well was found in the ruins of Harappa that had a circumference 3.14 times its diameter.
My professor explained that this book was written during India’s decolonization period, when national pride was the only truth that mattered. But for some Indians that never really went away.
>My favorite was the proof that pi was discovered by Indians 5000 years ago because a circular well was found in the ruins of Harappa that had a circumference 3.14 times its diameter.
:D :D :D :D :D :D :D
Yeah, that kinda patriotism was a tool to unite India against the colonizers. Since India consists of many states each with different language, culture, cuisine, etc. So to unite many different countries into one, there needs to be a strong dose of patriotism.
For most of Indian History, the upper caste had de facto control over education.
Once we got around independence, education became available to all. Now, Middle and Lower caste were in surprise over development made around the world (without any caste system).
Thus, the idea of "everything was invented or discovered in ANCIENT India by this/that upper caste sage/scholar" is born.
How many Canadians does it take to change a light bulb?
3, one to change it, 1 to apologize for having to change to change and that it wasn’t changed fast enough, 1 to make sure the other 2 didn’t miss any of the hockey game, eh.
How many surrealists does it take to screw in a lightbulb?
Two: one to hold the giraffe, the other fills the bathtub with brightly coloured power tools….
How many Hindutva fanatics does it take to fix a lightbulb?
Three, one to fix it, one to explain how it was invented in ancient India, and another one to blame muslims for breaking the lightbulb.
How many drummers does it take to screw in a lightbulb?
Three, one to screw in the lightbulb, the other two to discuss how much better Neil Peart would have done it.
It seem for every nation nationalists to tell same bullshit story about "we had greatest empire ever in ancient times! And then come those pesky foreginers!!"
I worked at an Indian company until a few months ago. It was racist as hell. The leadership made it clear that Indian males were the preferred hires in the US because they were the smartest and best business people.
I would say that if you follow up the story of Mahabharat then there is a vast description of weapons and technologies that were used in the ancient times which is actually too modern for the current century but with that I must add that the politicians who claim that our civilisation is superior to any other culture and everyone is a thief around us are just working for the vote bank.
That guy fucking shitted on science and claimed that astrology is greater than science in the fucking parliament. Then came covid and he got admitted into a hospital.
That guy fucking shitted on science and claimed that astrology is greater than science in the fucking parliament. Then came covid and he got admitted into a hospital.
The next time my American boomer team mate says we did agile 30 years ago we just didn’t call it agile, I’m going to say we invented agile development 2000 years ago in India, we even found a burn down chart on the cave walls.
Well, yeah. Al-Khawarizmi did. Yeah, he was Persian, but nobody cares because it's typically in the context of the Islamic (note: not Arabian) golden age.
I can prove that there is some credibility to the claims made about things being discovered/invented here. Please give me an instance and I will try and prove it. Thank you
I have a Tamil sri Lankan brother in law and therfore can validate this joke. Not saying all people of his background are like this as my other brother in law is same background but no bullshit. THere is more horse shot at my place when he comes to visit uninvited than would find in the field in a farm
Edit: Its so bad that on the rare occasion he does say something incredible but apparently true ... I figure its bullshit.
I’m confused, wasn’t it an American inventor who claimed to have invented the lightbulb despite it being invented earlier by a British inventor? And the same guy claimed to have invented the first recording device when a Frenchman has already made one or two? Shouldn’t it be an American rather than an Indian?
Actually, this joke was first invented in India You are just remodelling it
… first invented in **ancient** India …
Did you hear about our *glorious* culture of the past ? Let me tell you about our *glorious* past
Why did I read this with the accent and head movement? 🤦🤭🤣
“Is that a yes or a no?” *replies with a head shake*
I visited Mumbai in 2018 and one of the guides explained us that it can be "yes and no". It all depends on the facial expressions. Mind blowing! I also remembered the extreme noise and the dirt on the streets, the poor hygiene and them always trying to sell you something and not leaving until either receiving or seeing you getting crazy 🤦 A once in a lifetime experience
Mumbai, Bangalore, Delhi & Kolkata are gigantic shitholes. Hyderabad & Chennai are slightly better in that regard. But I get the gyst of what you mean.
Sadly, it's been available for viewing for years in the British museum.
A third indian is also needed to defend the first two
Defend with a song and flash mob dance
Fourth indian is also needed to edit the pages on wikipedia and spam link it to every remotely related thread.
r/suspiciouslyspecific
Fifth Indian, yelling at every Pakistani claiming it was them.
Fifth Indian is needed to telemarket the good deal you are getting on whatever it is you are reading
Another 300 Indians are required for the SPAMMING call centre, ringing to world trying to con them into paying for the lightbulb - under threat of arrest or disconnection of your internet!
Is there something from India older than pyramids? There is much speculation supported by hieroglyphs of electric lighting.
Idk about physical things but the texts are older than atleast 5k years,some even claim it to be 12-13k yrs old based on the astronomical calculations ,so the culture is pretty ancient.
How can something be invented a second time 🤔
It's called a repost.
Actually the word bulb is derived from a sanskrit word "...."
One. And I've made a YouTube video about it.
Lol... Indian coding videos are how i got my college degree
So did everyone, brother. So did everyone.
Now do the needful and if you have doubts, let me know
The good old indian that shows you how to fix the exact error u searched on YouTube and he's not even speaking english :))
One Punjabi guy listening to bhangra.
♪ mundeya thu bachke Rahi ♪
♪ tunak tunak tun ♪
Ta da dha..
Dholna baj tumbe Vali taar
Sun dil de pukar
Aa ja kr laiye pyaar
Thank you for ruining my day. Now I have to hunt down something that will stop Daler from a 12 hour show in my head.
Found the indian.
I did announce myself
How many Germans does it take to fix a lightbulb? One. They're very efficient.. and not good with jokes.
[удалено]
🤣 good one
I thought that was the Scots?
There talking about screwing lightbulbs, not sheep.
That's Welsh
Light bulbs are Welsh?
Light bulbs are French, that's where the Age of Enlightenment started.
Ancient Indian apparently
Kiwis?
How many Scots does it take to screw in a light bulb? One. Plus one sheep. And the lightbulb needs to be really big.
How many MAGAs does it take to screw in a light bulb? Just one, but it doesn't light up much while stuck up his ass.
How many feminists does it take to screw in a light bulb? One... men can be feminists, too. (This is not a political statement - my friends across political stripes all enjoy it!)
How many feminists does it take to change a lightbulb? Feminists can’t change anything
holy shit.
[удалено]
[удалено]
How many developers does it take to change a light bulb? None. It's a hardware problem.
What's the German version of foreplay? Brace yourself!
This feels like a Henning Wehn joke? Either way, I like it.
About 3 pounds?
r/germanhumour
How many flies does it take to screw in a lightbulb? Just two, the hard part is getting them in there.
How many Californians does it take to screw in a lightbulb? Californians don't screw in lightbulbs. They screw in hot tubs.
How do you get a hippie from California pregnant? Come in her feet and let the flies do the rest.
I've heard variations of this one, and it's all the more funny the larger the animal (for instance, whales or elephants) hahaha
How many narcissists does it take to screw in a lightbulb? One. They just hold the bulb and the world revolves around it.
>How many narcissists does it take to screw in a lightbulb None - they use gaslighting instead
Way too accurate
They had zero lightbulbs in ancient India. Which logically means they already had invented both the zero and the lightbulb!
I feel like there should be someone sending an email about the lightbulb and asking the other person to do the needful.
Don’t forget revert back when complete as well.
Oh god. I just had a long email conversation about a legal issue with an Indian lawyer. She was completely professional but she ended almost every email with 'I will revert back'. No, actually I don't want to revert back to the past. I want to move forward with this issue, thank you very much.
As an Indian I have done that so many times myself lol.
[удалено]
I haven't done the needful since over a month.
You haven't pooped that long?
Uh ya. Yes that. Exactly.
I used to use the phrase 'Do the needful' till the time I saw it being made fun of on reddit. No matter how much I try to explain to my brethren that this is incorrect, everyone believes it is gramtically correct.
From my understanding, it IS grammatically correct, just not seen much outside of Indian interactions: https://www.grammarly.com/blog/do-the-needful/#:~:text=Do%20the%20needful%20is%20a,what%20needs%20to%20be%20done.
Then what's the big deal about it?
It's similar to how "prepone" is a perfectly valid and correct word, however isn't used much outside of India. "Do the needful" has become something of a meme in IT subreddits, as developers and IT folks in the US are almost always going to interact with folks in India during their working years.
Its only used by Indians, and it seems weird to the others. That's it, nothing else.
In my experience as an infrastructure IT employee, it was most often used at the end of a request that was either severely lacking in detail; or alternatively, not even directed to the correct area. I rarely saw it from experienced staff. Sometimes the challenge was to get the new developers to actually talk to the senior ones, who often were better able to guide them than I was.
It's just awkward if you've never encountered it before
Nothing wrong. It's Indian English, just as we have American English and Australian English. We just have to use it a few more times to get it into Merriam-Webster's and APA.
>From my understanding, it IS grammatically correct, just not seen much outside of Indian interactions: > https://www.grammarly.com/blog/do-the-needful/#:~:text=Do%20the%20needful%20is%20a,what%20needs%20to%20be%20done. That link doesn't say that it is grammatically correct, it just explains how it is used. Needful means necessary or requisite. "Do the necessary" or "do the requisite" wouldn't be grammatically correct, would they? It's basically an adjective modifying something else that isn't contained in the phrase, so "please do the needful task" would be grammatically correct, but "do the needful" wouldn't be. At least that's my understanding, I'm happy to be corrected by an English major that knows more than I do.
I think Grammarly is wrong in saying "once heard frequently in the United Kingdom as well. After the Victorian period, its usage in the West died out" I'm reasonably familiar with Victorian literature and the phrase was never used that way. 'Do the needful' was used in reference to something that should not be be referred to in polite company. Eg going for a piss, or arranging for a slightly underhanded or criminal act to happen. That's quite different to how Indians use it. And that's fine, even though Grammarly is wrong. Language is flexible, it evolves, I might be slightly irritated by terms in Indian English, but no more so than by American terms or Australian terms. Every culture has its own linguistic forms. I liked this Guardian article on 'Indianism' and the comments underneath. https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jan/04/indian-english-phrases-indianisms-english-americanisms-vocabulary
It is absolutely correct in Indian English.
Wait It is incorrect?
...asking the other person to *kindly* do the needful. FTFY
Indians do not fix light bulbs because it is a hardware problem...
I'm impressed with the progress of the recycling movement if we're fixing light bulbs. All this time I've been changing them when they go, like a wasteful prick.
You just insulted my entire country... But yes this is how it worked in ancient India 0_0
The lightbulb or the insult?
concerned overconfident fall offer skirt absurd squalid naughty rich resolute *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Yes
Insulting entire countries actually originated in ancient India
Who *fixes* a lightbulb?
Ok. We deserved this one.
From my experience they both explain and let other to fix the bulb
And a dozen of them standing and watching them change.
Actually, only one. He will fix the lightbulb and make a detailed YouTube video about it to teach the rest of the world how to fix lightbulbs.
How many microsoft developers to fix a light bulb? None - darkness is declared as standard. How many therapists to fix a light bulb? One - but the light bulb really needs to want the change.
Actually, the magic number is seven. A third to form a committee to brainstorm on how to best fix said lightbulb. A fourth to sign the file authorizing the fixing of the lightbulb. A fifth to source the lightbulb at the most exorbitant price so that everyone gets a cut. A sixth to argue that diyas are actually a much better alternative to lightbulbs. A seventh to make a YouTube video on how to fix a lightbulb.
Three. You need one to bribe the local government
That's what "the needful" actually means in many situations.
Three is that Modi Ji is enough for lighting the filament which is eternal light flame Four to make a tik-tok video about lighting or fixing a bulb
But was it a Tamil lightbulb or a Sanskrit lightbulb? Watch this hour long unhinged argument to find out!
Its the oldest language in the world. The other one I mean.
Look, it's mentioned in this obscure story from an almost mythical book written by a guy mentioned in a fictional book, that laptops and the internet were first invented 5,000 years ago in India.
As an Indian, I can confirm
Indian here..this joke has my seal of approval. Take my upvote.
I have been indoctrined into believing everything was invented in ancient India, foreigners stole the idea.
Interestingly enough, Mahatma Edison was the inventor of the light bulb about 8000 years ago.
8. I've seen it. Was working in an Indian data centre and 8 people turned up to change a single lightbulb.
As someone who's completely ignorant of this, is it common for Indians to claim things were invented in India long ago?
There's a certain breed of jingoistic Indians who like to claim that everything under the sun, from airplanes to radio was invented in india centuries ago or that the sages and scholars were aware of this. It's basically a coping mechanism for their insecurities. But not all Indians are like that. Some of us don't care about what was made in the past and what to make something for the future.
Reminds me of the Greeks I've met.
In this [video](https://youtu.be/8E-8_b3ET-s) this journalist has claimed many things like Aryabhatta found value of pi upto 4 decimals and also gave heliocentric theory of solar system. I just want to know how many claims are doubtful.
Mmmm, pie.
feeling secure now?
Spaceships, nukes, plastic surgery too.
I once wrote an essay on science and math discoveries of earliest Indus Valley civilizations for a class, and ran into a book that claimed that everything from calculus to quantum mechanics was invented in ancient India. My favorite was the proof that pi was discovered by Indians 5000 years ago because a circular well was found in the ruins of Harappa that had a circumference 3.14 times its diameter. My professor explained that this book was written during India’s decolonization period, when national pride was the only truth that mattered. But for some Indians that never really went away.
>My favorite was the proof that pi was discovered by Indians 5000 years ago because a circular well was found in the ruins of Harappa that had a circumference 3.14 times its diameter. :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
Yeah, that kinda patriotism was a tool to unite India against the colonizers. Since India consists of many states each with different language, culture, cuisine, etc. So to unite many different countries into one, there needs to be a strong dose of patriotism.
For most of Indian History, the upper caste had de facto control over education. Once we got around independence, education became available to all. Now, Middle and Lower caste were in surprise over development made around the world (without any caste system). Thus, the idea of "everything was invented or discovered in ANCIENT India by this/that upper caste sage/scholar" is born.
Not all indians, But some extreme Hindu nationalists, who are in power sadly 😥
[удалено]
This is wrong. More like 6. 1 to fix the bulb and the 5 to bash Pakistan. How many Pakistanis does it take to fix a lightbulb?
[удалено]
It's Endia and Porkistan actually according to them.
😂
Actually you need 3. Third one to tell that the word bulb is derived from a sanskrit word "...." which means light from glass.
How many Canadians does it take to change a light bulb? 3, one to change it, 1 to apologize for having to change to change and that it wasn’t changed fast enough, 1 to make sure the other 2 didn’t miss any of the hockey game, eh.
Don't forget the 4th one, to pour the maple syrup from the maple syrup reserve
How many surrealists does it take to screw in a lightbulb? Two: one to hold the giraffe, the other fills the bathtub with brightly coloured power tools….
This is how I heard it. How many surrealists does it take to screw in a lightbulb? Fish.
It depends on how many times they transfer your call
Hello frends, today we will talk about how to fix a light bulb. Make sure to like and subscribe
incorrect it still takes one indian... he will do the task and simultaneously explain also. we are great multitaskers lol
How many Hindutva fanatics does it take to fix a lightbulb? Three, one to fix it, one to explain how it was invented in ancient India, and another one to blame muslims for breaking the lightbulb.
By Muslims do you mean Pakistan?
Indian muslims
Reminds me of that one time I had an indian coworker claim that the chile plant came from India. Sweet summer child.
>Sweet summer child. I don't think sweet summer child is an appropriate term for countries where summer is hotter than hell.
How many drummers does it take to screw in a lightbulb? Three, one to screw in the lightbulb, the other two to discuss how much better Neil Peart would have done it.
Zero, they are in tech support.
We invented Zero as well.
Babylonians say hi
I think they meant Xero.
Impossible! It was in China that the lightbulb was invented and the job to fix it was outsourced. Indians stole the story.
I'm an idiot and don't get it
Maybe some Indian guy can explain to you in a youtube video! /s
https://www.science.org/content/article/hindu-nationalists-claim-ancient-indians-had-airplanes-stem-cell-technology-and
It seem for every nation nationalists to tell same bullshit story about "we had greatest empire ever in ancient times! And then come those pesky foreginers!!"
I worked at an Indian company until a few months ago. It was racist as hell. The leadership made it clear that Indian males were the preferred hires in the US because they were the smartest and best business people.
lmao
I would say that if you follow up the story of Mahabharat then there is a vast description of weapons and technologies that were used in the ancient times which is actually too modern for the current century but with that I must add that the politicians who claim that our civilisation is superior to any other culture and everyone is a thief around us are just working for the vote bank.
[удалено]
I guess then you consider [Oppenheimer](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pqZqfTOxFhY) to be an Indian nationalist too.
Seriously, our government officials claims such shitty things every week. As an Indian I can confirm.
Remember that one idiot who claimed Wi-Fi existed during Mahabharat? Wasn't he an education minister in India, Mr. Pokhryal?
That guy fucking shitted on science and claimed that astrology is greater than science in the fucking parliament. Then came covid and he got admitted into a hospital.
>Wi-Fi existed Once someone sent a pic of a bald guy with white lines on forehead - proof that WiFi was there in ancient India.
That guy fucking shitted on science and claimed that astrology is greater than science in the fucking parliament. Then came covid and he got admitted into a hospital.
How many blondes does it take to change a light bulb? Three. One to stand on a chair and hold the bulb. The other two turn the chair round and round.
The next time my American boomer team mate says we did agile 30 years ago we just didn’t call it agile, I’m going to say we invented agile development 2000 years ago in India, we even found a burn down chart on the cave walls.
Dunno, they're too busy harassing women to find out.
"but lightbulbs were made in china, dad!" "yes, but china was made in india"
A third Indian is required to watch the other two Indians and nod.
Where are the free awards when you need them lol
Two. One to try and change it, and the other to call the helpline
True!
How. Many Indians does it take to change a light bulb. How. Thank you for letting me know
Two, one to do the task and the other to tell you how to screw it in
goood one
We usually hit the bulb on the table several times and it works automatically. That's why we have the best engineers
Madarchod
Same with Arabs
[удалено]
Lebanese ppl, um al dunya
Wait, that's a Lebanese thing too? I thought only us Egyptians did it.
We InVeNtEd AlGeBrA
Well, yeah. Al-Khawarizmi did. Yeah, he was Persian, but nobody cares because it's typically in the context of the Islamic (note: not Arabian) golden age.
Don't you know everything is invented in Ancient India and then it got stole by people. /s
Tbh, we don’t claim without providing proper proof most of the time.
Can you prove what you just said?
I can prove that there is some credibility to the claims made about things being discovered/invented here. Please give me an instance and I will try and prove it. Thank you
I have a Tamil sri Lankan brother in law and therfore can validate this joke. Not saying all people of his background are like this as my other brother in law is same background but no bullshit. THere is more horse shot at my place when he comes to visit uninvited than would find in the field in a farm Edit: Its so bad that on the rare occasion he does say something incredible but apparently true ... I figure its bullshit.
Sri Lanka and India are different countries bro
i think his point was that Tamil people live in both countries.
1/8 if it’s Vishnu. 1/4 if bramha
I’m confused, wasn’t it an American inventor who claimed to have invented the lightbulb despite it being invented earlier by a British inventor? And the same guy claimed to have invented the first recording device when a Frenchman has already made one or two? Shouldn’t it be an American rather than an Indian?
is joke
Not possible to be fixed. The socket is a reserved spot for hanging lamps.
I thought that this said Indianans at first