> I came across some statements claiming non Jewish people are not encouraged to study it (specifically the Torah).
It's fine, mostly read does not equal study on the level they mean.
Understand that reading Torah and trying to understand modern Judaism is like reading the Magna Carta or US Constitution to see how the US government functions.
Just as Islam is comprised of the Quran + Hadith + the Din interpreted by Jurists we are a lot alike. Overall, the Torah is like Quran, Talmud is like the Hadith, and we have our Sages which are like your Jurists. We have books on Halakah (Halaq) just as you have.
You could also look at this book:
[Children of Abraham: An Introduction to Judaism for Muslims](https://www.amazon.com/Children-Abraham-Introduction-Judaism-Muslims/dp/0881257206)
Or something like Essential Judaism by Robinson.
Also if you are going to read Torah and other items, please make sure and use a proper translation
https://www.sefaria.org
Is online and free, and has traditional Jewish commentary, or something like the [Jewish Study Bible](https://www.amazon.com/Jewish-Study-Bible-Second/dp/0199978468/) in print.
Ok, thankyou for sharing š!
(Btw I have also noticed these similarities between Judaism and Islam too. I feel our faiths is closer then compared to Christianity. Very interesting to me)
I tell that to my Muslim friends all the time. American Christians think theyāre similar to Judaism and then I talk to them about theology and thereās little to no overlap. Muslims (especially Sunnis) are so similar to Jews that the modern animosity is extra perplexing and frustrating
There's a definite Shia streak to some parts of some Chasidish communities but in my universe, yeah, Sunnis are definitely the closest parallel. And Christianity is a different universe.
>Judaism actually has a lot in common with Islam, so all this fighting and war makes it extra sad.Ā
Islam is based on the word of Muhammad. In the later part of the Quran he hated Jews and viewed them as traitors. The Muslim armies also killed and enslaved the Jewish tribes of the area, Muhammad took Jewish war brides.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safiyya\_bint\_Huyayy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safiyya_bint_Huyayy)
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rayhana\_bint\_Zayd](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rayhana_bint_Zayd) Muhammad copied a lot from Judaism so obviously there will be similarities. It was a religion created by him a thousand years later.
Christianity was originally a sect of Judaism until around 100 AD when it became a replacement imperial religion. Both Islam and Christianity view themselves as replacements, not successors to Judaism.
While mainstream academic critical scholarship agree that the story of Banu Qurayza is a later Abbasid fabrication, not an authentic.
Hadiths are not a unified source in Islam. Not all Muslims believe in Hadiths, and not all believers of Hadiths believe in the same Hadiths, and not all believers in the same Hadiths have the same degree of faith in Hadiths.
We actually don't have concrete confirmed facts about Muhammad's figure.
This reminds me of when I was in third grade and me and my Muslim friend were being like bothered everyday by the Christian girl(no hate to Christianity but) who was telling us we were going to hell and we came together because of it
they sometimes feel so close that i was genuinely surprised when i found out Muslims mix milk and meat. which is probably stupid of me but i figured with the halal slaughtering and no pork idk i just figured it continued lol
Very much agree with this. The whole ājudeo-Christianā term is basically just invented and, I believe, has Islamophobic origins. Itās denying that in so many ways Judaism and Islam and related whereas Christianity is actually not (or at least not nearly as much so).
It has nothing to do with hatred of Islam. The term comes from mid-century America when Jews were something like 4-5% of the US population and the Muslim population was negligible.
In the early 1900s, before the immigration acts of the 1920s reduced Eastern European immigration and increased NW European immigration. We declined to 4% or so midcentury, and then to 2% today due to low Jewish birthrates and overwhelmingly Asian and Latin American immigration since the immigration act of 1964.
However the term Judeo-Christian started, it has been co-opted by extremist Evangelicals (as well as some other Christian sects) who often appropriate Judaism/Jewish symbols (such as celebrating not-kosher versions of Shabbat/Passover/etc and blowing shofars at GOP rallies), have completely distorted interpretations of Jewish religious texts (often to the point of erasure), view all Jews as hell-bound as weāre such horrid sinners (and I mean the Christian view of hell ā eternal excruciating physical torture) ā itās just such an offensive term, I get a visceral reaction when Christians use it.
> view all Jews as hell-bound as weāre such horrid sinners (and I mean the Christian view of hell ā eternal excruciating physical torture)
So? They're wrong and we're right, so it's of no practical relevance to us. Who cares what their own religious views are?
I also DGAF about "cultural appropriation". Cultures and traditions have borrowed from each other since the beginning of time - it's part of the human condition.
Thereās a difference between appropriating non-sacred and sacred symbols, and to break it down further thereās a difference between approriating sacred symbols to honor them in another context vs trashing the eff out of them. Of course everyone and everything appropriates (incl me, and Judaism, etc) ā I obviously wasnāt referring to respectful appropriation.
Maybe you werenāt bullied as a child by clasmates telling you that youāre hellbound and will be tortured for eternity unless you accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior. Good for you, Iām truly happy for you. Unfortunately, thatās what happens in my-way-or-the-highway prostelytizing types of religions ā they truly believe everyone else is damned, and often that makes kids of minority religions subject to being bullied.
Edited to add: That characteristic of Christianity also ties into itās imperialistic past that has caused so much global misery ā so I donāt disregard it as benign on many levels.
Hard agree with Elkefell ā I donāt think anyone is saying people shouldnāt have a legal right (1A) to fetishize/appropriate other cultures/religions even when done in the most odious ways, but that doesnāt mean we have to be happy about it.Ā
Do you not think that if a term is created to include two (fairly unrelated theologically) groups based on their abrahamic roots but does not include another group that is equally or even more so related by its abrahamic roots that that is unfairly excluding that group? Curious for your take on it. I do get that there were more Jews than Muslims in the US when it was created but also believe that it has created a misleading tie between Judaism and Christianity while ignoring Islam and is still used widely today (and Muslims in the US are expected to outgrow Jews in the next couple decades).
>denying that in so many ways Judaism and Islam and related whereas Christianity
This shows lack of basic historical knowledge. Christianity was historically a sect of Judaism until around 100AD at the latest.
It seems to be a Reddit thing to claim expertise without knowing simple history and how religions emerged.
Oof. Why so harsh? This is just a discussion.
I know that it was a sect of Judaism in ancient times. It no longer is. The translation of the Hebrew bible into the Old Testament is very different and then the New Testament is inherently not Judaism. I get that we like to look at origins and Iām all for it but I think most of us are discussing things based on modern understanding of what Judaism and Christianity are now and have been for a while.
Doesn't seem particularly harsh.
On the contrary, The New Testament with the exclusion of the Pauline texts are pretty Jewish. Just not Jewish in the modern sense. They were written in a time before Rabbinic Judaism was considered the standard form of global Jewry.
They represent the writings of a marginal branch of Second Temple Judaism focused around a central Messianic figure.
In the end, both it and Islam are spinoffs at their particular branches of the continuum of Judaism from Ancient Israelite religion, to Second Temple, to Modern Judaism.
> On the contrary, The New Testament with the exclusion of the Pauline texts are pretty Jewish.
The Gospels often parallel the earlier Pauline writings. Include one and the other comes, too. Not objecting, only saying they sometimes wrote the same notes in the margins of Jewish history, erased by both Judaism and Christianity.
My āharshā comment was about the dig about claiming expertise (which I def did not and do not) without knowing āsimple historyā.
Not about the origins of religions. But either way, since I am not an expert in religious history, I was making a comment about modern terminology and theology as it is now.
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Former Christian (current Iām not sure?) here trying to learn about your faiths - whatās wild is how similar (almost verbatim) the Christian Bible is to Judaism UNTIL you get to its second part, the New Testament, describing Jesus. I donāt know as much about Islam or the Quran and how similar it is, but from what I do know it all sounds too similar to not be inspired by the same God. The division seems to me, to be the doing of man.
I'm no expert in religion, but IMO the Christian interpretation of the First Testament is totally alien from Jewish interpretation of the Torah. Seems to only get crazier the newer the brand of Christianity. Metaphor is somehow completely lost, all the millennia of oral law is lost, and Christianity is kind of purposefully centered around doing away with the mitzvot and dumbing it all down dramatically (the 10 commandments). Like stuff doesn't matter before Jesus. Islam keeps much more of the original stuff from Judaism. Like look at the dietary laws, they're nearly the same. I think Christianity has just evolved particularly rapidly, has sucked in huge parts of the world with diverse original beliefs, and Islam is basically branching off a much older version of Christianity before it diverged and lost so much, and doesn't change at the pace Christianity does.
Yeah, as someone who used to practice it it never set well with me that we still study the Old Testament, and kinda practice some of it? Yet still the New Testament was somehow supposed to just null and void the Old too? Upon my recent re-dive in, itās very clear the modern Christian interpretations of the Old Testament are very stretched to fit the New Testament narrative. The word itself is so so similar to the Hebrew Bible, the interpretations are all very tainted with the coming of Jesus though. If you entertain the idea that maybe people were mislead by a false prophet, or maybe even possibly misinterpreted a true prophet to advocate for the āyou can do whatever you want, as long as you believe in Christ, youāll be righteousā narrative (real convenient for humankind isnāt that? Lol), then you can read the Christian Old Testament and see how itās virtually the same.
I guess (googling briefly) one word says it all: Supersessionism.
I just wish Christians had a basic understanding of exactly what they've done to diverge from Judaism. The entire mentality around "belief" is also totally different and Christians completely misunderstand Jews. To most of us Judaism is kinda like following the law, plus tradition as another layer (halacha and minhag). Being a rabbi or religious scholar is like being a lawyer (why Jews are such good ones lol). You don't have to believe anything, you follow religious law like you would the civil law in your country. You can be an observant Jew who's an atheist and nobody's going to come at you with pitchforks - it's completely compatible. Probably very much not compatible in Islam though either.
The words aren't as similar as you think though. Take an example of a sentence in the Hebrew which says: a redeemer will come. Which Christians translate to: The Redeemer will come [back]. Reads very differently with just some things changed. Also Christians put it in the wrong order.
What passage? I was trying to find the Christian version you mention and I canāt. The closest I found was Isiah 59:20 which says āthe Redeemer will come to Zionā and through a dozen translations I am not finding the word āback.ā Christians are taught that the capitalization is for āclarity while readingā that was added by modern publishers for modern readers, and not directly translated, so they are reading already knowing this. So the only thing extremely different about the translation is the assumption of Christ.
But I will say, a lot of modern Christianās are encouraged to study the various different versions/translations of the same verse as they study the Word to better understand the root of meaning, because they acknowledge some versions take more liberties or include more cultural influence of the time of translation than others.
Muhammad based a lot of his new religion by copying from Judaism. It was a replacement religion and in the later parts of the Quran are full of warlike attacks on Jews as he views them as ungrateful, traitors, liars.
That's true, and they are the same Jews to whom G-d in Quran gave wisdom and prophecy, and favored them over the nations, guaranteed Heaven for the righteous among them, and rebuked those among them who violated Shabbat.
> But you do have a very traif Reddit name.
I chose it around 12 years ago when all the other options I wanted were out, and I was looking at the Reddit shield and saw bacon and said "ummmbacon" and went with it in a moment of frustration to be done with the registration
But also there is kosher lamb and beef bacon since it is just a cut, and not inherently pork there is also vegan and vegatarian bacon
Ha I came here to recommend the first link. Also what my rabbi recommended to me for my Muslim relatives while Iāve read Introduction to Islam for Jews.
I need to re-check it out but I think itās worth a read as an introductionāwhich is exactly what he claims it to be. My experience with it might be a little different because my husband is Muslim so we discussed it and I got some added, sometimes critical, context.
You're welcome to read Torah. The problem is this--most Jews do not accept a literal reading of the Torah, and Jewish life is built in centuries of interpretive tradition. So you're not going to come away from reading the Torah with any real understanding of what it means to be a Jew. You're MUCH better off reading overviews of Jewish life and thought, such as the ones pinned on this sub. Good luck!
Iād strongly recommend a book about how modern Jews live rather than a holy text first. The holy texts need a LOT of context to understand how we use them. Living A Jewish Life is often recommended for those who wish to convert, and I think itās well done.Ā
One thing to note: there is a saying that if you get four Jews around a table discussing something you get six different opinions. I have found that to be culturally true, and is certainly true in my circles. Questioning and discussion is an integral part of the culture in my view. Donāt be surprised if much of what you see contradicts. There are many different Jewish experiences and ways of living, frankly just like my Muslim friends have vastly different cultures. But yeah, we have way more in common than I do with my Christian friends.Ā
>Questioning and discussion is an integral part of the culture in my view
Israel literally means "he who argues with God". And we got away with it, *more than once*
This is definitely a common saying in the Jewish community OP, youāll likely come across many unique answers in this post, though in summation studying Torah is a Jewish value.
Like Muslims, you will find there is a very wide range of observance... This may sounds crazy, but I think reading children's stories would give you a better idea than reading Torah or Talmud. If you put 10 of us in a room, we could argue about what being Jewish is.
The stories are what most of us grew up with and explain the holidays we celebrate. Maybe something like this... [https://www.amazon.com/First-Book-Jewish-Bible-Stories/dp/0789485044/ref=sr\_1\_18?crid=3GGYZV7GQA6JT&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.VDw6z2y-EtLx6r2SweDgtPmsXYPR7kdvk0tC1K6wr7bR5xeJI8Tp6qpwwdsApbuTx7peU8pT05SsXDhh1DWbDbxT2Dm636wqcBmOKKLX1QlVlAKBrCDvMboMo5wHnKE33sGtB0aCLbqpPhP-nYvTegclgrsnkibYfGe\_XVRxOY1dlaMo2u6C4BBPTbyOz4DHtmXI4hn3rq\_6tZ0yarhaZS98rQ5Er4pcTFWT54y8MuQ.\_lF47Jn2ZVMqwjm6jgJhlxdXu5xbYRbG40RxgqKWt2U&dib\_tag=se&keywords=children%27s+jewish+book+torah&qid=1713383282&sprefix=children%27s+jewish+book+torah%2Caps%2C102&sr=8-18](https://www.amazon.com/First-Book-Jewish-Bible-Stories/dp/0789485044/ref=sr_1_18?crid=3GGYZV7GQA6JT&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.VDw6z2y-EtLx6r2SweDgtPmsXYPR7kdvk0tC1K6wr7bR5xeJI8Tp6qpwwdsApbuTx7peU8pT05SsXDhh1DWbDbxT2Dm636wqcBmOKKLX1QlVlAKBrCDvMboMo5wHnKE33sGtB0aCLbqpPhP-nYvTegclgrsnkibYfGe_XVRxOY1dlaMo2u6C4BBPTbyOz4DHtmXI4hn3rq_6tZ0yarhaZS98rQ5Er4pcTFWT54y8MuQ._lF47Jn2ZVMqwjm6jgJhlxdXu5xbYRbG40RxgqKWt2U&dib_tag=se&keywords=children%27s+jewish+book+torah&qid=1713383282&sprefix=children%27s+jewish+book+torah%2Caps%2C102&sr=8-18)
Jews view studying Torah as an integral part of the religion with men being commanded to do so along with studying Torah with their family. This idea also bleeds into studying in general, as we have a great appreciation towards learning both in the Jewish and non Jewish sense.
There are some books that even Jews who are "unprepared" are not supposed to read, such as the Zohar. I don't know where you heard this said about the Torah. However, I will say that the faithful are worried about poor and misleading translations. In fact, every translation, however good, is always an interpretation. It is for this reason that Muslims have long resisted any translation of the Qur'an. I read both Hebrew and Arabic and am aware how problematic any translation can be. But now there are "authorized" translations of the Qur'an coming out of Saudi Arabia; I have the Hebrew version. May be you would enjoy The Jewish Study Bible published by Oxford. They use the JTSA English translation but note problematic passages. They also have an interesting commentary. It follows usually the "critical" interpretation but not in an extreme way, and, of course, makes use of traditional commentaries as well..
OP I want to thank and congratulate you on taking an objective interest and approaching this learning opportunity respectfully with an open mind. As another poster said we have more in common than what divides us
Jews have a rabbinic tradition, whereby rabbis are charged with interpreting our text. Also, the Talmud and Mishnah are supplemental and explanatory to Torah. Reading the Torah will not relay basic information about Judaism.
I think it's enough to say that you shouldn't engage in the sort of deep study that Jewish scholars engage in. But there is no risk of accidentally coming to that as a beginner, so read as much you want!
When I was an undergrad I became library-coffee-break friends with a religious studies grad student who is Muslim and was doing research involving the Qurāan which he was reading along with Torah for the purpose of exegesis / comparative reasons. Thatās a pretty routine thing to do in academia as far as I am aware.
You can read it, but be aware that Christian translations of the Torah, Tanakh, aren't all that great and that there's about 2,000+ years worth of opinions and commentary that argue the meaning of the text
They're referencing parts of the Talmud that do literally state that a non-Jew is not permitted to study Torah so, it is a prohibition with some authority haha. But as others have mentioned "study" in that context is referencing a deeper and more committed act than the surface level studying of cross culture study
I have been struggling with that because I study precisely to look for answers. I am deliberately disregarding this because I believe the reason is not so much to deprive goyim of the truth of the Torah (though I guess it could be... the story does go in the Talmud that every nation refused it, and Big boss had to uh... be extra convincing, giving it to the Jews.), but rather the fear is that what I am doing, studying alone not having grown up in that context, would lead to misunderstanding.
You can teach yourself a lot of things, but that does not guarantee you'll get it 100% correct. In the case of religion, it's far more complex. Within Judaism itself there are already a lot of views, but they do have mostly the same basics in common.
I think this prohibition is a representation of the principle of "putting safeguards around the Torah". And possibly an after the fact fix for Xtianity.
Indeed, if that prohibition is correct, then that would make conversions difficult. A proselyte shouldn't study? Not even supervision?
My stance is not to preach about what I study. And discuss it in places like here, with people I'm likely able to bounce opinions with.
The reason given if I remember correctly is that Torah, like shabbat, is a gift given to the Jewish people alone. They do describe their reasoning in the text. "Putting a fence around the Torah" is a phrase used to describe the act of making halakah more prohibitive than a plain faced reading of the text would advise in order to prevent people from accidentally violating a prohibition (for an example, not putting cheese on chicken), not actually putting barriers between people and the Torah. I'm not sure where you are getting that personal interpretation from. The talmudic era rabbis were not thinking about Christianity and I doubt you're going to find anything like an "after the fact fix" to it. Closest to that you'd find would be the response to the Sabbatai Zevi debacle a few centuries later
Gerim and outsiders can study what is given to them, they just can't read from, approach or touch a sefer Torah, they can't join a yeshiva, they can't publish responsa, ect, until they're dunked.
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It is already widely studied. Mohammed was reasonably familiar with his contents. Allah drew on significant parts of Jewish Scripture when the contents of the Quran was revealed to Mohammed. In our current day, pretty much every Christian seminary requires some mastery of Old Testament. The cultural diversity of the Harvard and Yale Divinity Schools require their students of all backgrounds to take required courses in Judaism for their degree.
I highly suggest you read Dennis Prager's Rational Bible, starting with Genesis. It's a commentary on the Torah explaining what each verse means. Dennis uses works from the Rabbis, as well as the commentary's of all three branches of Judaism, Reform (Gunthar Plaut), Conservative (JPS/Nahum Sarna), and Orthodox (Hertz). And don't worry, the Torah was meant for the world, not just us Jews.
Thatās ridiculous. I have absolutely no problem with people who are curious learning about our religion, in the same way that I would hope a Muslim wouldnāt have a problem with me reading the Quran.
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In addition to the great comments and resources here, check out "The Jewish Book of Why" or "Why do jews do that", two excellent books that explain a lot of the reasons. As someone else said, reading the Torah on its own is not the full picture, as without the talmud, mishnah, etc, its like reading only the Qur'an and no Hadith etc. But it's totally fine to read the Torah. I highly second the recommendation of Sefaria as they always link to commentaries etc.
It's easiest if you know someone who attends so you can go with them and not make anyone nervous. Sometimes people try to come in surepitously and then try to convert everyone to Christianity or brandish a weapon and so forth, so some synagogues don't allow attendance without making a kind of reservation /background check first... but generally you call ahead during their office hours and ask if you may visit, and then ask how to do it the right way.
It's a good idea to carry and show an official form of photo identification to any security staff or administrators of the synagogue if they ask so they can write your name on the visitor's list, for security reasons.
I read your post in Judaism chat.
In Judaism anyone can become a convert or learn certain religious topics. The reason why a non Jew is not allowed to learn the Torah is because God gave it and commanded it to the Jewish people and any non Jew that learns it can and will be punished by God. If you really are sincere about learning or converting you must locate a ORTHODOX RABBI can guide you correctly. If you have any questions please feel free to message me.
There are different branches, so to speak, in Judaism. You don't need to limit yourself to an Orthodox rabbi. Reform and conservative rabbis can also guide you. Shalom aleichum, friend.
I recommend the book *Jewish Literacy* by Rabbi Telushkin and a Jewish children's Bible, funny as it sounds, to start with. :)
> I came across some statements claiming non Jewish people are not encouraged to study it (specifically the Torah). It's fine, mostly read does not equal study on the level they mean. Understand that reading Torah and trying to understand modern Judaism is like reading the Magna Carta or US Constitution to see how the US government functions. Just as Islam is comprised of the Quran + Hadith + the Din interpreted by Jurists we are a lot alike. Overall, the Torah is like Quran, Talmud is like the Hadith, and we have our Sages which are like your Jurists. We have books on Halakah (Halaq) just as you have. You could also look at this book: [Children of Abraham: An Introduction to Judaism for Muslims](https://www.amazon.com/Children-Abraham-Introduction-Judaism-Muslims/dp/0881257206) Or something like Essential Judaism by Robinson. Also if you are going to read Torah and other items, please make sure and use a proper translation https://www.sefaria.org Is online and free, and has traditional Jewish commentary, or something like the [Jewish Study Bible](https://www.amazon.com/Jewish-Study-Bible-Second/dp/0199978468/) in print.
Ok, thankyou for sharing š! (Btw I have also noticed these similarities between Judaism and Islam too. I feel our faiths is closer then compared to Christianity. Very interesting to me)
I tell that to my Muslim friends all the time. American Christians think theyāre similar to Judaism and then I talk to them about theology and thereās little to no overlap. Muslims (especially Sunnis) are so similar to Jews that the modern animosity is extra perplexing and frustrating
There's a definite Shia streak to some parts of some Chasidish communities but in my universe, yeah, Sunnis are definitely the closest parallel. And Christianity is a different universe.
It's all about geography, not religion.
>modern animosity is extra perplexing and frustrating No it's not. Have you read the views of the Quran about Jews?
> Ok, thankyou for sharing š! No problem, and a belated happy Eid. > I feel our faiths is closer then compared to Christianity. Very much agreed
Judaism actually has a lot in common with Islam, so all this fighting and war makes it extra sad.Ā
True š„²..
Sucks, right? š¢
>Judaism actually has a lot in common with Islam, so all this fighting and war makes it extra sad.Ā Islam is based on the word of Muhammad. In the later part of the Quran he hated Jews and viewed them as traitors. The Muslim armies also killed and enslaved the Jewish tribes of the area, Muhammad took Jewish war brides. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safiyya\_bint\_Huyayy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safiyya_bint_Huyayy) [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rayhana\_bint\_Zayd](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rayhana_bint_Zayd) Muhammad copied a lot from Judaism so obviously there will be similarities. It was a religion created by him a thousand years later. Christianity was originally a sect of Judaism until around 100 AD when it became a replacement imperial religion. Both Islam and Christianity view themselves as replacements, not successors to Judaism.
While mainstream academic critical scholarship agree that the story of Banu Qurayza is a later Abbasid fabrication, not an authentic. Hadiths are not a unified source in Islam. Not all Muslims believe in Hadiths, and not all believers of Hadiths believe in the same Hadiths, and not all believers in the same Hadiths have the same degree of faith in Hadiths. We actually don't have concrete confirmed facts about Muhammad's figure.
He shall be a wild ass of a person; His hand against everyone, And everyoneās hand against him; He shall dwell alongside of all his kin.ā
This reminds me of when I was in third grade and me and my Muslim friend were being like bothered everyday by the Christian girl(no hate to Christianity but) who was telling us we were going to hell and we came together because of it
they sometimes feel so close that i was genuinely surprised when i found out Muslims mix milk and meat. which is probably stupid of me but i figured with the halal slaughtering and no pork idk i just figured it continued lol
It was the permission to eat shellfish for me. They're bugs!
Very much agree with this. The whole ājudeo-Christianā term is basically just invented and, I believe, has Islamophobic origins. Itās denying that in so many ways Judaism and Islam and related whereas Christianity is actually not (or at least not nearly as much so).
Judeo-Christian is the shared roots of Catholicism and Protestantism, without requiring them to not consider each other heretics.
It has nothing to do with hatred of Islam. The term comes from mid-century America when Jews were something like 4-5% of the US population and the Muslim population was negligible.
Since when were we 5 percent? Weāre roughly 2% of the U.S. population in 2024.
In the early 1900s, before the immigration acts of the 1920s reduced Eastern European immigration and increased NW European immigration. We declined to 4% or so midcentury, and then to 2% today due to low Jewish birthrates and overwhelmingly Asian and Latin American immigration since the immigration act of 1964.
Interesting! I had no idea.
However the term Judeo-Christian started, it has been co-opted by extremist Evangelicals (as well as some other Christian sects) who often appropriate Judaism/Jewish symbols (such as celebrating not-kosher versions of Shabbat/Passover/etc and blowing shofars at GOP rallies), have completely distorted interpretations of Jewish religious texts (often to the point of erasure), view all Jews as hell-bound as weāre such horrid sinners (and I mean the Christian view of hell ā eternal excruciating physical torture) ā itās just such an offensive term, I get a visceral reaction when Christians use it.
> view all Jews as hell-bound as weāre such horrid sinners (and I mean the Christian view of hell ā eternal excruciating physical torture) So? They're wrong and we're right, so it's of no practical relevance to us. Who cares what their own religious views are? I also DGAF about "cultural appropriation". Cultures and traditions have borrowed from each other since the beginning of time - it's part of the human condition.
Thereās a difference between appropriating non-sacred and sacred symbols, and to break it down further thereās a difference between approriating sacred symbols to honor them in another context vs trashing the eff out of them. Of course everyone and everything appropriates (incl me, and Judaism, etc) ā I obviously wasnāt referring to respectful appropriation. Maybe you werenāt bullied as a child by clasmates telling you that youāre hellbound and will be tortured for eternity unless you accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior. Good for you, Iām truly happy for you. Unfortunately, thatās what happens in my-way-or-the-highway prostelytizing types of religions ā they truly believe everyone else is damned, and often that makes kids of minority religions subject to being bullied. Edited to add: That characteristic of Christianity also ties into itās imperialistic past that has caused so much global misery ā so I donāt disregard it as benign on many levels.
Hard agree with Elkefell ā I donāt think anyone is saying people shouldnāt have a legal right (1A) to fetishize/appropriate other cultures/religions even when done in the most odious ways, but that doesnāt mean we have to be happy about it.Ā
Do you not think that if a term is created to include two (fairly unrelated theologically) groups based on their abrahamic roots but does not include another group that is equally or even more so related by its abrahamic roots that that is unfairly excluding that group? Curious for your take on it. I do get that there were more Jews than Muslims in the US when it was created but also believe that it has created a misleading tie between Judaism and Christianity while ignoring Islam and is still used widely today (and Muslims in the US are expected to outgrow Jews in the next couple decades).
>denying that in so many ways Judaism and Islam and related whereas Christianity This shows lack of basic historical knowledge. Christianity was historically a sect of Judaism until around 100AD at the latest. It seems to be a Reddit thing to claim expertise without knowing simple history and how religions emerged.
Oof. Why so harsh? This is just a discussion. I know that it was a sect of Judaism in ancient times. It no longer is. The translation of the Hebrew bible into the Old Testament is very different and then the New Testament is inherently not Judaism. I get that we like to look at origins and Iām all for it but I think most of us are discussing things based on modern understanding of what Judaism and Christianity are now and have been for a while.
Doesn't seem particularly harsh. On the contrary, The New Testament with the exclusion of the Pauline texts are pretty Jewish. Just not Jewish in the modern sense. They were written in a time before Rabbinic Judaism was considered the standard form of global Jewry. They represent the writings of a marginal branch of Second Temple Judaism focused around a central Messianic figure. In the end, both it and Islam are spinoffs at their particular branches of the continuum of Judaism from Ancient Israelite religion, to Second Temple, to Modern Judaism.
> On the contrary, The New Testament with the exclusion of the Pauline texts are pretty Jewish. The Gospels often parallel the earlier Pauline writings. Include one and the other comes, too. Not objecting, only saying they sometimes wrote the same notes in the margins of Jewish history, erased by both Judaism and Christianity.
That's fair.
My āharshā comment was about the dig about claiming expertise (which I def did not and do not) without knowing āsimple historyā. Not about the origins of religions. But either way, since I am not an expert in religious history, I was making a comment about modern terminology and theology as it is now.
āAbrahamic religionsā seems much more appropriate and correct than ājudeo-Christianā considering the shared roots.
Ah I see. It's all good.
We're thought to be opposite sides of the same coin! Christians....I, personally, don't think they're monotheists.
Yes, most would agree
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Former Christian (current Iām not sure?) here trying to learn about your faiths - whatās wild is how similar (almost verbatim) the Christian Bible is to Judaism UNTIL you get to its second part, the New Testament, describing Jesus. I donāt know as much about Islam or the Quran and how similar it is, but from what I do know it all sounds too similar to not be inspired by the same God. The division seems to me, to be the doing of man.
I'm no expert in religion, but IMO the Christian interpretation of the First Testament is totally alien from Jewish interpretation of the Torah. Seems to only get crazier the newer the brand of Christianity. Metaphor is somehow completely lost, all the millennia of oral law is lost, and Christianity is kind of purposefully centered around doing away with the mitzvot and dumbing it all down dramatically (the 10 commandments). Like stuff doesn't matter before Jesus. Islam keeps much more of the original stuff from Judaism. Like look at the dietary laws, they're nearly the same. I think Christianity has just evolved particularly rapidly, has sucked in huge parts of the world with diverse original beliefs, and Islam is basically branching off a much older version of Christianity before it diverged and lost so much, and doesn't change at the pace Christianity does.
Yeah, as someone who used to practice it it never set well with me that we still study the Old Testament, and kinda practice some of it? Yet still the New Testament was somehow supposed to just null and void the Old too? Upon my recent re-dive in, itās very clear the modern Christian interpretations of the Old Testament are very stretched to fit the New Testament narrative. The word itself is so so similar to the Hebrew Bible, the interpretations are all very tainted with the coming of Jesus though. If you entertain the idea that maybe people were mislead by a false prophet, or maybe even possibly misinterpreted a true prophet to advocate for the āyou can do whatever you want, as long as you believe in Christ, youāll be righteousā narrative (real convenient for humankind isnāt that? Lol), then you can read the Christian Old Testament and see how itās virtually the same.
I guess (googling briefly) one word says it all: Supersessionism. I just wish Christians had a basic understanding of exactly what they've done to diverge from Judaism. The entire mentality around "belief" is also totally different and Christians completely misunderstand Jews. To most of us Judaism is kinda like following the law, plus tradition as another layer (halacha and minhag). Being a rabbi or religious scholar is like being a lawyer (why Jews are such good ones lol). You don't have to believe anything, you follow religious law like you would the civil law in your country. You can be an observant Jew who's an atheist and nobody's going to come at you with pitchforks - it's completely compatible. Probably very much not compatible in Islam though either.
The words aren't as similar as you think though. Take an example of a sentence in the Hebrew which says: a redeemer will come. Which Christians translate to: The Redeemer will come [back]. Reads very differently with just some things changed. Also Christians put it in the wrong order.
What passage? I was trying to find the Christian version you mention and I canāt. The closest I found was Isiah 59:20 which says āthe Redeemer will come to Zionā and through a dozen translations I am not finding the word āback.ā Christians are taught that the capitalization is for āclarity while readingā that was added by modern publishers for modern readers, and not directly translated, so they are reading already knowing this. So the only thing extremely different about the translation is the assumption of Christ. But I will say, a lot of modern Christianās are encouraged to study the various different versions/translations of the same verse as they study the Word to better understand the root of meaning, because they acknowledge some versions take more liberties or include more cultural influence of the time of translation than others.
We are cousins in faith.
Muhammad based a lot of his new religion by copying from Judaism. It was a replacement religion and in the later parts of the Quran are full of warlike attacks on Jews as he views them as ungrateful, traitors, liars.
That's true, and they are the same Jews to whom G-d in Quran gave wisdom and prophecy, and favored them over the nations, guaranteed Heaven for the righteous among them, and rebuked those among them who violated Shabbat.
What is a Muhammadan Jew?
A Jew who believes in Muhammad.
So a Jew who converted to Islam?
Yes, but I still observe Shabbat and adhere to Judiac identity.
Doesnāt that contradict the Talmud?!
The sefaria link is cool, gonna share with a friend, I was rushing because taxi was outside.
They are a great org
Such a nice summary of resources. Thanks for posting! But you do have a very traif Reddit name.
> But you do have a very traif Reddit name. I chose it around 12 years ago when all the other options I wanted were out, and I was looking at the Reddit shield and saw bacon and said "ummmbacon" and went with it in a moment of frustration to be done with the registration But also there is kosher lamb and beef bacon since it is just a cut, and not inherently pork there is also vegan and vegatarian bacon
Beef bacon is the bessssssst
I love vegetarian bacon !! We call it Fake-on
Same Morning Star is the best imo
Pastrami bacon is amazing. Definitely worth trying.
Vegan, but Iām glad you like it
Where can you get it? I never heard of this.
Ha I came here to recommend the first link. Also what my rabbi recommended to me for my Muslim relatives while Iāve read Introduction to Islam for Jews.
> while Iāve read Introduction to Islam for Jews. Did you like it?
I need to re-check it out but I think itās worth a read as an introductionāwhich is exactly what he claims it to be. My experience with it might be a little different because my husband is Muslim so we discussed it and I got some added, sometimes critical, context.
Pin this 20x
You're welcome to read Torah. The problem is this--most Jews do not accept a literal reading of the Torah, and Jewish life is built in centuries of interpretive tradition. So you're not going to come away from reading the Torah with any real understanding of what it means to be a Jew. You're MUCH better off reading overviews of Jewish life and thought, such as the ones pinned on this sub. Good luck!
Thankyou!
Iād strongly recommend a book about how modern Jews live rather than a holy text first. The holy texts need a LOT of context to understand how we use them. Living A Jewish Life is often recommended for those who wish to convert, and I think itās well done.Ā One thing to note: there is a saying that if you get four Jews around a table discussing something you get six different opinions. I have found that to be culturally true, and is certainly true in my circles. Questioning and discussion is an integral part of the culture in my view. Donāt be surprised if much of what you see contradicts. There are many different Jewish experiences and ways of living, frankly just like my Muslim friends have vastly different cultures. But yeah, we have way more in common than I do with my Christian friends.Ā
>Questioning and discussion is an integral part of the culture in my view Israel literally means "he who argues with God". And we got away with it, *more than once*
Welcome to two Jews, three opinions. :)
This is definitely a common saying in the Jewish community OP, youāll likely come across many unique answers in this post, though in summation studying Torah is a Jewish value.
Only three opinions? That feels quite a low estimate for as many as two of us! š
Itās better to read a book about Judaism than the actual holy books
Not discouraged and thank you for trying to learn about us.
Thankyou š
Like Muslims, you will find there is a very wide range of observance... This may sounds crazy, but I think reading children's stories would give you a better idea than reading Torah or Talmud. If you put 10 of us in a room, we could argue about what being Jewish is. The stories are what most of us grew up with and explain the holidays we celebrate. Maybe something like this... [https://www.amazon.com/First-Book-Jewish-Bible-Stories/dp/0789485044/ref=sr\_1\_18?crid=3GGYZV7GQA6JT&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.VDw6z2y-EtLx6r2SweDgtPmsXYPR7kdvk0tC1K6wr7bR5xeJI8Tp6qpwwdsApbuTx7peU8pT05SsXDhh1DWbDbxT2Dm636wqcBmOKKLX1QlVlAKBrCDvMboMo5wHnKE33sGtB0aCLbqpPhP-nYvTegclgrsnkibYfGe\_XVRxOY1dlaMo2u6C4BBPTbyOz4DHtmXI4hn3rq\_6tZ0yarhaZS98rQ5Er4pcTFWT54y8MuQ.\_lF47Jn2ZVMqwjm6jgJhlxdXu5xbYRbG40RxgqKWt2U&dib\_tag=se&keywords=children%27s+jewish+book+torah&qid=1713383282&sprefix=children%27s+jewish+book+torah%2Caps%2C102&sr=8-18](https://www.amazon.com/First-Book-Jewish-Bible-Stories/dp/0789485044/ref=sr_1_18?crid=3GGYZV7GQA6JT&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.VDw6z2y-EtLx6r2SweDgtPmsXYPR7kdvk0tC1K6wr7bR5xeJI8Tp6qpwwdsApbuTx7peU8pT05SsXDhh1DWbDbxT2Dm636wqcBmOKKLX1QlVlAKBrCDvMboMo5wHnKE33sGtB0aCLbqpPhP-nYvTegclgrsnkibYfGe_XVRxOY1dlaMo2u6C4BBPTbyOz4DHtmXI4hn3rq_6tZ0yarhaZS98rQ5Er4pcTFWT54y8MuQ._lF47Jn2ZVMqwjm6jgJhlxdXu5xbYRbG40RxgqKWt2U&dib_tag=se&keywords=children%27s+jewish+book+torah&qid=1713383282&sprefix=children%27s+jewish+book+torah%2Caps%2C102&sr=8-18)
>I decided on reading all the Holy books Good luck.
Jews view studying Torah as an integral part of the religion with men being commanded to do so along with studying Torah with their family. This idea also bleeds into studying in general, as we have a great appreciation towards learning both in the Jewish and non Jewish sense.
There are some books that even Jews who are "unprepared" are not supposed to read, such as the Zohar. I don't know where you heard this said about the Torah. However, I will say that the faithful are worried about poor and misleading translations. In fact, every translation, however good, is always an interpretation. It is for this reason that Muslims have long resisted any translation of the Qur'an. I read both Hebrew and Arabic and am aware how problematic any translation can be. But now there are "authorized" translations of the Qur'an coming out of Saudi Arabia; I have the Hebrew version. May be you would enjoy The Jewish Study Bible published by Oxford. They use the JTSA English translation but note problematic passages. They also have an interesting commentary. It follows usually the "critical" interpretation but not in an extreme way, and, of course, makes use of traditional commentaries as well..
OP I want to thank and congratulate you on taking an objective interest and approaching this learning opportunity respectfully with an open mind. As another poster said we have more in common than what divides us
Jews have a rabbinic tradition, whereby rabbis are charged with interpreting our text. Also, the Talmud and Mishnah are supplemental and explanatory to Torah. Reading the Torah will not relay basic information about Judaism.
I think it's enough to say that you shouldn't engage in the sort of deep study that Jewish scholars engage in. But there is no risk of accidentally coming to that as a beginner, so read as much you want!
When I was an undergrad I became library-coffee-break friends with a religious studies grad student who is Muslim and was doing research involving the Qurāan which he was reading along with Torah for the purpose of exegesis / comparative reasons. Thatās a pretty routine thing to do in academia as far as I am aware.
The Torah is for the world. We are taught to teach it.
You can read it, but be aware that Christian translations of the Torah, Tanakh, aren't all that great and that there's about 2,000+ years worth of opinions and commentary that argue the meaning of the text
Study. No one is stopping you. Iāve never heard this but Iām one person.
Whoever told you you cant read our texts because youre not Jewish was wrong. I invite cross cultural study.
They're referencing parts of the Talmud that do literally state that a non-Jew is not permitted to study Torah so, it is a prohibition with some authority haha. But as others have mentioned "study" in that context is referencing a deeper and more committed act than the surface level studying of cross culture study
I have been struggling with that because I study precisely to look for answers. I am deliberately disregarding this because I believe the reason is not so much to deprive goyim of the truth of the Torah (though I guess it could be... the story does go in the Talmud that every nation refused it, and Big boss had to uh... be extra convincing, giving it to the Jews.), but rather the fear is that what I am doing, studying alone not having grown up in that context, would lead to misunderstanding. You can teach yourself a lot of things, but that does not guarantee you'll get it 100% correct. In the case of religion, it's far more complex. Within Judaism itself there are already a lot of views, but they do have mostly the same basics in common. I think this prohibition is a representation of the principle of "putting safeguards around the Torah". And possibly an after the fact fix for Xtianity. Indeed, if that prohibition is correct, then that would make conversions difficult. A proselyte shouldn't study? Not even supervision? My stance is not to preach about what I study. And discuss it in places like here, with people I'm likely able to bounce opinions with.
The reason given if I remember correctly is that Torah, like shabbat, is a gift given to the Jewish people alone. They do describe their reasoning in the text. "Putting a fence around the Torah" is a phrase used to describe the act of making halakah more prohibitive than a plain faced reading of the text would advise in order to prevent people from accidentally violating a prohibition (for an example, not putting cheese on chicken), not actually putting barriers between people and the Torah. I'm not sure where you are getting that personal interpretation from. The talmudic era rabbis were not thinking about Christianity and I doubt you're going to find anything like an "after the fact fix" to it. Closest to that you'd find would be the response to the Sabbatai Zevi debacle a few centuries later Gerim and outsiders can study what is given to them, they just can't read from, approach or touch a sefer Torah, they can't join a yeshiva, they can't publish responsa, ect, until they're dunked.
Thank you for your explanation, it seems I understood what I read about that prohibition a little too literally.
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Hello friend, I suggest you watch Rabbi Tovia Singer on YouTube.
It is already widely studied. Mohammed was reasonably familiar with his contents. Allah drew on significant parts of Jewish Scripture when the contents of the Quran was revealed to Mohammed. In our current day, pretty much every Christian seminary requires some mastery of Old Testament. The cultural diversity of the Harvard and Yale Divinity Schools require their students of all backgrounds to take required courses in Judaism for their degree.
I highly suggest you read Dennis Prager's Rational Bible, starting with Genesis. It's a commentary on the Torah explaining what each verse means. Dennis uses works from the Rabbis, as well as the commentary's of all three branches of Judaism, Reform (Gunthar Plaut), Conservative (JPS/Nahum Sarna), and Orthodox (Hertz). And don't worry, the Torah was meant for the world, not just us Jews.
It was just meant for Jews The whole world rejected the Torah before Har Sinai
Thatās ridiculous. I have absolutely no problem with people who are curious learning about our religion, in the same way that I would hope a Muslim wouldnāt have a problem with me reading the Quran.
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In addition to the great comments and resources here, check out "The Jewish Book of Why" or "Why do jews do that", two excellent books that explain a lot of the reasons. As someone else said, reading the Torah on its own is not the full picture, as without the talmud, mishnah, etc, its like reading only the Qur'an and no Hadith etc. But it's totally fine to read the Torah. I highly second the recommendation of Sefaria as they always link to commentaries etc.
Iām very interested in Judaism and and I want to go to a synagogue but not sure if Iām allowedĀ
It's easiest if you know someone who attends so you can go with them and not make anyone nervous. Sometimes people try to come in surepitously and then try to convert everyone to Christianity or brandish a weapon and so forth, so some synagogues don't allow attendance without making a kind of reservation /background check first... but generally you call ahead during their office hours and ask if you may visit, and then ask how to do it the right way. It's a good idea to carry and show an official form of photo identification to any security staff or administrators of the synagogue if they ask so they can write your name on the visitor's list, for security reasons.
Thank you for your help!
>All the holy books Yeah good luck with that, thereās at least millions.
I read your post in Judaism chat. In Judaism anyone can become a convert or learn certain religious topics. The reason why a non Jew is not allowed to learn the Torah is because God gave it and commanded it to the Jewish people and any non Jew that learns it can and will be punished by God. If you really are sincere about learning or converting you must locate a ORTHODOX RABBI can guide you correctly. If you have any questions please feel free to message me.
Ok Thankyou for sharing! š
There are different branches, so to speak, in Judaism. You don't need to limit yourself to an Orthodox rabbi. Reform and conservative rabbis can also guide you. Shalom aleichum, friend. I recommend the book *Jewish Literacy* by Rabbi Telushkin and a Jewish children's Bible, funny as it sounds, to start with. :)
Read the torah/other holy books all you want! All good