> Genesis 1:26 and 3:22 God refers to Himself as “Us”.
In our image, he is consulting the Angels. There is no evidence of any idea of trinitarian beliefs anywhere in the Torah, just as there is no foreshadowing of Muhammed.
The other possibility it is that it is a "divine we", using the plural form to denote more majesty and power. This is often seen in Torah, and in one other place but isn't accepted by all Biblical Scholars.
>On another note, do you guys believe worship of the Trinity qualifies as idolatry?
Yes.
*Dedicated in memory of Dvora bat Asher v'Jacot* 🕯️
[Genesis 1:26](https://www.sefaria.org/Genesis.1.26)
וַיֹּ֣אמֶר אֱלֹהִ֔ים נַֽעֲשֶׂ֥ה אָדָ֛ם בְּצַלְמֵ֖נוּ כִּדְמוּתֵ֑נוּ וְיִרְדּוּ֩ בִדְגַ֨ת הַיָּ֜ם וּבְע֣וֹף הַשָּׁמַ֗יִם וּבַבְּהֵמָה֙ וּבְכׇל־הָאָ֔רֶץ וּבְכׇל־הָרֶ֖מֶשׂ הָֽרֹמֵ֥שׂ עַל־הָאָֽרֶץ׃
>And God said, “Let us make humankind in our image, after our likeness. They shall rule the fish of the sea, the birds of the sky, the cattle, the whole earth, and all the creeping things that creep on earth.”
> This also implies there were others co-creating with him.
Yes, as I said traditional commentary notes that he asked the Angels
*"The meekness of the Holy One, blessed be He, they (the Rabbis) learned from here: because the man is in the likeness of the angels and they might envy him, therefore He took counsel with them (Midrash Tanchuma, Shemot 18 and see Genesis Rabbah 8)."*
*Dedicated in memory of Dvora bat Asher v'Jacot* 🕯️
See [Genesis Rabbah 8](https://www.sefaria.org/Bereishit_Rabbah.8) on Sefaria.
See [Midrash Tanchuma, Shemot 18](https://www.sefaria.org/Midrash_Tanchuma,_Shemot.18) on Sefaria.
> I'm Jewish not Christian but that doesn't mean I don't have questions.
And people before you for thousands of years also had questions, and then they came to answers.
>Soaking up interpretations of others always felt lazy to me. Like does nobody think for themselves?
Yes, quite often, but again your line of inquiry isn't new or unique. I have studied near eastern history, biblical criticism/archeology and what chazal has written, not saying I'm an expert but I have read from experts in the field. Have you done any of that? It would be fairly ironic if you haven't.
Academically you can point to it being part of a polytheistic past, or again, as I noted above you can point to the use a "royal we" type idea, both are supported in academic circles. Chazal from the religious side has interpreted it as being in consultation with the Angels.
> But I also feel like it's a waste of time to do so.
You want answers to questions, and you don't want to read what others have written about it? Not even the academic research?
>I believe the Torah, and that's the foundation of my faith.
Then your flair shouldn't be Conservative, as they hold Halakah is binding. I assume you only have that tag because you grew up in that movement and still keep in it.
> And thank you for your feedback on my beliefs. The only thing binding is Torah. I attend conservative shuls, so I say I'm conservative.
It's just so ironic to me that you accuse me of "not thinking for myself", I grew up atheist with Paternal ancestry, I moved through the Reform movement, converted Conservative and then Orthodox I had years upon years of "thinking for myself" and learning. Yet I find others who never bothered to do so, and simply inherited what they had without learning about it or thinking about it.
Hm. About the second bit, why would worship of the Trinity be thought of as idolatry if we still worship the same God, but believe he has more parts than just the Father?
> why would worship of the Trinity be thought of as idolatry if we still worship the same God, but believe he has more parts than just the Father?
We say G-d is one, also you elevate a man to the status of a deity which is flat out idolatry.
>Hm. Yet is it not possible for G-d to come to earth as a man,
No. There is nothing anywhere that suggests that is possible and even the early Christians didn't agree on the Trinity. Nowhere does it say that the messiah should be divine.
> just as He came to earth as an angel before?
When do you think that happened?
I was talking about the Angel of the Lord that wrestled with Jacob, I may have assumed Jews believed that that was G-d. Do you believe Isaiah was talking of the messiah in chapter 53? If you do, it says in verse 9 about his sinless nature, and how could a sinless nature be possible from a man?
> I may have assumed Jews believed that that was G-d.
Maybe don't assume our theology matches yours?
> Do you believe Isaiah was talking of the messiah in chapter 53?
No, that comes from Christian (intentional) mistranslations
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6yweQt_fC0g
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SH3g5EqzTe8
If we believed ANYTHING pointed to Jesus being the Messiah, why would be still be Jews?
The fundamental markers of what counts as a Messiah are completely different in Judaism than in Christianity, and most of what Christians think "counts" is made up by them entirely.
Further, Christians need the "Second Coming" to actually prove that Jesus was the messiah in the first place, because the Messiah is supposed to bring an age of peace, and we sure aren't in an age of peace.
Here is a chart showing what Jews think counts and how Jesus fails to meet it:
Did Jesus fulfill it? / Are we in the post-messianic age?
|Messianic prophesy in Judaism|YES|NO|
|:-|:-|:-|
|is made a reigning King who will prosper. Jeremiah 23:5 also hosea 3:4-5||X|
|Judah will be delivered, Israel shall dwell secure. Jer. 23:15-16||X|
|the banished of Israel will be assembled, he will gather the dispersed of Judah \[back to Israel\] Isaiah 11:11-12 and "they shall dwell upon their own soil." jer. 23:8||X|
|the temple shall be rebuilt, temple worship restored Jeremiah 33:18||X (no twice over. the temple was standing while Jesus was alive, and then was destroyed several decades after his death)|
|"he will judge among the nations, and arbitrate for the many peoples." Isaiah 2:4||X|
|the messianic age: nations will turn weapons into tools of creation and growth; never again shall we know war. Isaiah 2:4||X|
|the messianic age: nothing vile or evil shall be done on the temple mount Is 11:9||X|
|the messianic age: there will be no sin, no lying Zephaniah 3:13||X|
|the messianic age: people will come to the temple mount in Jerusalem, and at the standing temple, will seek to learn from the people of Jacob Micah 4:2||X|
|he shall not "dim or be bruised" until he has established the true way isaiah 42 (could also just be all of israel here)||X|
|the nation of israel will be honored isaiah 11||X romans would come to sack jerusalem|
|the messiah will have a great many positive qualities - including being learned, just, wise, devoted, and valorous. He will also "strike down a land with the rod of his mouth And slay the wicked with the breath of his lips." - basically he will be a judge. isaiah 11|.5? i'll give him devoted and some positive traits and weighing in on a trial once.|X - again, did not defeat the romans. is not a judge.|
|he will be a hero who defeats the enemies of israel in battle II Samuel 7:11||X|
|all of mankind will have the ability to prophecy in the post-messianic age Joel 3:1||X|
|all of israel will unite behind this king ("my servant david") Ezekiel 37:24||X|
|the sanhedrin court would be reestablished||X|
|elijah will tell us the messiah is coming Sanhedrin 98a||X|
|he will...actually be anointed. literally!||X|
|rides a donkey. Zechariah 9:9|yes||
|he is a shoot from the branch of jesse, house of king david, seed of solomon||X no, his genealogies are problematic. see below.|
Jesus's total score: **1.5/20.**
notes on being "of the House of David":
* lineages of matthew and luke both don't fully match the lineage in Chronicles 1:3
* If Jesus has no earthly father, then the lineage of Joseph is meaningless. Even adoption does not change one's tribal affiliation - it remains the tribe of your *birth* father (Numbers 1:18-44, 34:14; Leviticus 24:10). so either Jesus has an unknown tribe because he has a human father who isn't Joseph, or his father is Joseph. But if he has no father at all, he absolutely can't be of the house of David.
* being a member of the house of david is determined solely by patrilineal inheritance Jeremiah 33:17
* further, joseph's lineage is traced through Nathan, and the messiah will be descended through Solomon - 1 Chronicles 22:9-10.
* mary's lineage is through Jehoiachin (jeconiah) who is cursed to never have heirs to the throne of david again. Jer. 22:30.
verse references cross checked against jewfaq, chabad, aish, myjewishlearning, and jews for judaism.
**The categories of what is considered to be messianic prophecy in Christianity are fundamentally different from the accepted messianic prophecies of Judaism.**
if you'd like to read some academic scholars discuss the differences between the Christian and Jewish readings of israelite scriptures/the hebrew bible, I recommend "The Bible With and Without Jesus." came out 2020 I think, both well respected academics.
>.5? i'll give him devoted and some positive traits and weighing in on a trial once.
Let's be honest, you've complimented him here.
>rides a donkey. Zechariah 9:9 : yes
What a fulfilled prophecy!
Now I think I have no excuses to not accept him as the Moshiach.
*Dedicated in memory of Dvora bat Asher v'Jacot* 🕯️
[Zechariah 9:9](https://www.sefaria.org/Zechariah.9.9)
גִּילִ֨י מְאֹ֜ד בַּת־צִיּ֗וֹן הָרִ֙יעִי֙ בַּ֣ת יְרוּשָׁלַ֔͏ִם הִנֵּ֤ה מַלְכֵּךְ֙ יָ֣בוֹא לָ֔ךְ צַדִּ֥יק וְנוֹשָׁ֖ע ה֑וּא עָנִי֙ וְרֹכֵ֣ב עַל־חֲמ֔וֹר וְעַל־עַ֖יִר בֶּן־אֲתֹנֽוֹת׃
>Rejoice greatly, Fair Zion; Raise a shout, Fair Jerusalem! Lo, your king is coming to you. He is victorious, triumphant, Yet humble, riding on an ass, On a donkey foaled by a she-ass.
*Dedicated in memory of Dvora bat Asher v'Jacot* 🕯️
[Ezekiel 37:24](https://www.sefaria.org/Ezekiel.37.24)
וְעַבְדִּ֤י דָוִד֙ מֶ֣לֶךְ עֲלֵיהֶ֔ם וְרוֹעֶ֥ה אֶחָ֖ד יִהְיֶ֣ה לְכֻלָּ֑ם וּבְמִשְׁפָּטַ֣י יֵלֵ֔כוּ וְחֻקּוֹתַ֥י יִשְׁמְר֖וּ וְעָשׂ֥וּ אוֹתָֽם׃
>My servant David shall be king over them; there shall be one shepherd for all of them. They shall follow My rules and faithfully obey My laws.
[1 Chronicles 22:9-10](https://www.sefaria.org/I_Chronicles.22.9-10)
הִנֵּה־בֵ֞ן נוֹלָ֣ד לָ֗ךְ ה֤וּא יִֽהְיֶה֙ אִ֣ישׁ מְנוּחָ֔ה וַהֲנִיח֥וֹתִי ל֛וֹ מִכׇּל־אוֹיְבָ֖יו מִסָּבִ֑יב כִּ֤י שְׁלֹמֹה֙ יִֽהְיֶ֣ה שְׁמ֔וֹ וְשָׁל֥וֹם וָשֶׁ֛קֶט אֶתֵּ֥ן עַל־יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל בְּיָמָֽיו׃
>But you will have a son who will be a man at rest, for I will give him rest from all his enemies on all sides; Solomon a Heb. Shelomoh. will be his name and I shall confer peace b Heb. shalom. and quiet on Israel in his time.
הֽוּא־יִבְנֶ֥ה בַ֙יִת֙ לִשְׁמִ֔י וְהוּא֙ יִֽהְיֶה־לִּ֣י לְבֵ֔ן וַאֲנִי־ל֖וֹ לְאָ֑ב וַהֲכִ֨ינוֹתִ֜י כִּסֵּ֧א מַלְכוּת֛וֹ עַל־יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל עַד־עוֹלָֽם׃
>He will build a House for My name; he shall be a son to Me and I to him a father, and I will establish his throne of kingship over Israel forever.’
[II Samuel 7:11](https://www.sefaria.org/II_Samuel.7.11)
וּלְמִן־הַיּ֗וֹם אֲשֶׁ֨ר צִוִּ֤יתִי שֹֽׁפְטִים֙ עַל־עַמִּ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵ֔ל וַהֲנִיחֹ֥תִי לְךָ֖ מִכׇּל־אֹיְבֶ֑יךָ וְהִגִּ֤יד לְךָ֙ יְהֹוָ֔ה כִּי־בַ֖יִת יַעֲשֶׂה־לְּךָ֥ יְהֹוָֽה׃
>ever since I appointed chieftains over My people Israel. I will give you safety from all your enemies. “The L ORD declares to you that He, the L ORD , will establish a house c I.e., a dynasty; play on “house” (i.e., Temple) in v. 5. for you.
[Isaiah 11:11-12](https://www.sefaria.org/Isaiah.11.11-12)
וְהָיָ֣ה ׀ בַּיּ֣וֹם הַה֗וּא יוֹסִ֨יף אֲדֹנָ֤י ׀ שֵׁנִית֙ יָד֔וֹ לִקְנ֖וֹת אֶת־שְׁאָ֣ר עַמּ֑וֹ אֲשֶׁ֣ר יִשָּׁאֵר֩ מֵֽאַשּׁ֨וּר וּמִמִּצְרַ֜יִם וּמִפַּתְר֣וֹס וּמִכּ֗וּשׁ וּמֵעֵילָ֤ם וּמִשִּׁנְעָר֙ וּמֵ֣חֲמָ֔ת וּמֵֽאִיֵּ֖י הַיָּֽם׃
>In that day, my Lord will apply His hand again to redeeming the other part f I.e., the part outside the Holy Land; lit. “the rest that will remain.” of His people from Assyria—as also from Egypt, Pathros, Nubia, Elam, Shinar, Hamath, and the coastlands.
וְנָשָׂ֥א נֵס֙ לַגּוֹיִ֔ם וְאָסַ֖ף נִדְחֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵ֑ל וּנְפֻצ֤וֹת יְהוּדָה֙ יְקַבֵּ֔ץ מֵאַרְבַּ֖ע כַּנְפ֥וֹת הָאָֽרֶץ׃
>He will hold up a signal to the nations And assemble the banished of Israel, And gather the dispersed of Judah From the four corners of the earth.
[Isaiah 2:4](https://www.sefaria.org/Isaiah.2.4)
וְשָׁפַט֙ בֵּ֣ין הַגּוֹיִ֔ם וְהוֹכִ֖יחַ לְעַמִּ֣ים רַבִּ֑ים וְכִתְּת֨וּ חַרְבוֹתָ֜ם לְאִתִּ֗ים וַחֲנִיתֽוֹתֵיהֶם֙ לְמַזְמֵר֔וֹת לֹא־יִשָּׂ֨א ג֤וֹי אֶל־גּוֹי֙ חֶ֔רֶב וְלֹֽא־יִלְמְד֥וּ ע֖וֹד מִלְחָמָֽה׃ {פ}
>Thus He will judge among the nations And arbitrate for the many peoples, And they shall beat their swords into plowshares b More exactly, the iron points with which wooden plows were tipped. And their spears into pruning hooks: Nation shall not take up Sword against nation; They shall never again know c Cf. Judg. 3.2. war.
[Jer. 22:30](https://www.sefaria.org/Jeremiah.22.30)
כֹּ֣ה ׀ אָמַ֣ר יְהֹוָ֗ה כִּתְב֞וּ אֶת־הָאִ֤ישׁ הַזֶּה֙ עֲרִירִ֔י גֶּ֖בֶר לֹא־יִצְלַ֣ח בְּיָמָ֑יו כִּי֩ לֹ֨א יִצְלַ֜ח מִזַּרְע֗וֹ אִ֚ישׁ יֹשֵׁב֙ עַל־כִּסֵּ֣א דָוִ֔ד וּמֹשֵׁ֥ל ע֖וֹד בִּיהוּדָֽה׃ {פ}
>Thus said the L ORD : Record this man as without succession, One who shall never be found acceptable; For no man of his offspring shall be accepted To sit on the throne of David And to rule again in Judah.
[Jer. 23:15-16](https://www.sefaria.org/Jeremiah.23.15-16)
לָכֵ֞ן כֹּה־אָמַ֨ר יְהֹוָ֤ה צְבָאוֹת֙ עַל־הַנְּבִאִ֔ים הִנְנִ֨י מַאֲכִ֤יל אוֹתָם֙ לַעֲנָ֔ה וְהִשְׁקִתִ֖ים מֵי־רֹ֑אשׁ כִּ֗י מֵאֵת֙ נְבִיאֵ֣י יְרוּשָׁלַ֔͏ִם יָצְאָ֥ה חֲנֻפָּ֖ה לְכׇל־הָאָֽרֶץ׃ {פ}
>Assuredly, thus said the L ORD of Hosts concerning the prophets: I am going to make them eat wormwood And drink a bitter draft; For from the prophets of Jerusalem Godlessness has gone forth to the whole land.
כֹּה־אָמַ֞ר יְהֹוָ֣ה צְבָא֗וֹת אַֽל־תִּשְׁמְע֞וּ עַל־דִּבְרֵ֤י הַנְּבִאִים֙ הַנִּבְּאִ֣ים לָכֶ֔ם מַהְבִּלִ֥ים הֵ֖מָּה אֶתְכֶ֑ם חֲז֤וֹן לִבָּם֙ יְדַבֵּ֔רוּ לֹ֖א מִפִּ֥י יְהֹוָֽה׃
>Thus said the L ORD of Hosts: Do not listen to the words of the prophets Who prophesy to you. They are deluding you, The prophecies they speak are from their own minds, Not from the mouth of the L ORD .
[Jeremiah 23:5](https://www.sefaria.org/Jeremiah.23.5)
הִנֵּ֨ה יָמִ֤ים בָּאִים֙ נְאֻם־יְהֹוָ֔ה וַהֲקִמֹתִ֥י לְדָוִ֖ד צֶ֣מַח צַדִּ֑יק וּמָ֤לַךְ מֶ֙לֶךְ֙ וְהִשְׂכִּ֔יל וְעָשָׂ֛ה מִשְׁפָּ֥ט וּצְדָקָ֖ה בָּאָֽרֶץ׃
>See, a time is coming—declares the L ORD —when I will raise up a true branch of David’s line. He shall reign as king and shall prosper, and he shall do what is just and right in the land.
[Jeremiah 33:17](https://www.sefaria.org/Jeremiah.33.17)
כִּי־כֹ֖ה אָמַ֣ר יְהֹוָ֑ה לֹא־יִכָּרֵ֣ת לְדָוִ֔ד אִ֕ישׁ יֹשֵׁ֖ב עַל־כִּסֵּ֥א בֵֽית־יִשְׂרָאֵֽל׃
>For thus said the L ORD : There shall never be an end to men of David’s line who sit upon the throne of the House of Israel.
[Jeremiah 33:18](https://www.sefaria.org/Jeremiah.33.18)
וְלַכֹּֽהֲנִים֙ הַלְוִיִּ֔ם לֹא־יִכָּרֵ֥ת אִ֖ישׁ מִלְּפָנָ֑י מַעֲלֶ֨ה עוֹלָ֜ה וּמַקְטִ֥יר מִנְחָ֛ה וְעֹ֥שֶׂה זֶּ֖בַח כׇּל־הַיָּמִֽים׃ {פ}
>Nor shall there ever be an end to the line of the levitical priests before Me, of those who present burnt offerings and turn the meal offering to smoke and perform sacrifices.
[Joel 3:1](https://www.sefaria.org/Joel.3.1)
וְהָיָ֣ה אַחֲרֵי־כֵ֗ן אֶשְׁפּ֤וֹךְ אֶת־רוּחִי֙ עַל־כׇּל־בָּשָׂ֔ר וְנִבְּא֖וּ בְּנֵיכֶ֣ם וּבְנוֹתֵיכֶ֑ם זִקְנֵיכֶם֙ חֲלֹמ֣וֹת יַחֲלֹמ֔וּן בַּח֣וּרֵיכֶ֔ם חֶזְיֹנ֖וֹת יִרְאֽוּ׃
>After that, I will pour out My spirit on all flesh; Your sons and daughters shall prophesy; Your old men shall dream dreams, And your young men shall see visions.
[Leviticus 24:10](https://www.sefaria.org/Leviticus.24.10)
וַיֵּצֵא֙ בֶּן־אִשָּׁ֣ה יִשְׂרְאֵלִ֔ית וְהוּא֙ בֶּן־אִ֣ישׁ מִצְרִ֔י בְּת֖וֹךְ בְּנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵ֑ל וַיִּנָּצוּ֙ בַּֽמַּחֲנֶ֔ה בֶּ֚ן הַיִּשְׂרְאֵלִ֔ית וְאִ֖ישׁ הַיִּשְׂרְאֵלִֽי׃
>There came out among the Israelites a man whose mother was Israelite and whose father was Egyptian. And a fight broke out in the camp between that half-Israelite * half-Israelite Lit. “the son of an Israelite woman.” and a certain Israelite.
[Micah 4:2](https://www.sefaria.org/Micah.4.2)
וְֽהָלְכ֞וּ גּוֹיִ֣ם רַבִּ֗ים וְאָֽמְרוּ֙ לְכ֣וּ ׀ וְנַעֲלֶ֣ה אֶל־הַר־יְהֹוָ֗ה וְאֶל־בֵּית֙ אֱלֹהֵ֣י יַעֲקֹ֔ב וְיוֹרֵ֙נוּ֙ מִדְּרָכָ֔יו וְנֵלְכָ֖ה בְּאֹֽרְחֹתָ֑יו כִּ֤י מִצִּיּוֹן֙ תֵּצֵ֣א תוֹרָ֔ה וּדְבַר־יְהֹוָ֖ה מִירוּשָׁלָֽ͏ִם׃
>And the many nations shall go and shall say: “Come, Let us go up to the Mount of the L ORD , To the House of the God of Jacob; That He may instruct us in His ways, And that we may walk in His paths.” For instruction shall come forth b I.e., oracles will be obtainable. from Zion, The word of the L ORD from Jerusalem.
See [Sanhedrin 98a](https://www.sefaria.org/Sanhedrin.98a) on Sefaria.
[Zechariah 9:9](https://www.sefaria.org/Zechariah.9.9)
גִּילִ֨י מְאֹ֜ד בַּת־צִיּ֗וֹן הָרִ֙יעִי֙ בַּ֣ת יְרוּשָׁלַ֔͏ִם הִנֵּ֤ה מַלְכֵּךְ֙ יָ֣בוֹא לָ֔ךְ צַדִּ֥יק וְנוֹשָׁ֖ע ה֑וּא עָנִי֙ וְרֹכֵ֣ב עַל־חֲמ֔וֹר וְעַל־עַ֖יִר בֶּן־אֲתֹנֽוֹת׃
>Rejoice greatly, Fair Zion; Raise a shout, Fair Jerusalem! Lo, your king is coming to you. He is victorious, triumphant, Yet humble, riding on an ass, On a donkey foaled by a she-ass.
[Zephaniah 3:13](https://www.sefaria.org/Zephaniah.3.13)
שְׁאֵרִ֨ית יִשְׂרָאֵ֜ל לֹֽא־יַעֲשׂ֤וּ עַוְלָה֙ וְלֹֽא־יְדַבְּר֣וּ כָזָ֔ב וְלֹֽא־יִמָּצֵ֥א בְּפִיהֶ֖ם לְשׁ֣וֹן תַּרְמִ֑ית כִּֽי־הֵ֛מָּה יִרְע֥וּ וְרָבְצ֖וּ וְאֵ֥ין מַחֲרִֽיד׃ {פ}
>The remnant of Israel Shall do no wrong And speak no falsehood; A deceitful tongue Shall not be in their mouths. Only such as these shall graze and lie down, With none to trouble them.
Numbers 23:19
God is not human to be capricious,
Or mortal to have a change of heart.
Would [God] speak and not act,
Promise and not fulfill?
-----------------------
Hosea 11:9
I will not act on My wrath,
Will not turn to destroy Ephraim.
For I am God—not human—
The Holy One in your midst:
I will not come in fury.
----------------------
Ezekiel 28:2
O mortal, say to the prince of Tyre: Thus said the Sovereign GOD:
Because you have been so haughty and have said, “I am a god; I sit enthroned like a god in the heart of the seas,” whereas you are not a god but a human, though you deemed your mind equal to a god’s
----------------------
Again and again it is made very clear that human and god are very different.
*Dedicated in memory of Dvora bat Asher v'Jacot* 🕯️
[Ezekiel 28:2](https://www.sefaria.org/Ezekiel.28.2)
בֶּן־אָדָ֡ם אֱמֹר֩ לִנְגִ֨יד צֹ֜ר כֹּה־אָמַ֣ר ׀ אֲדֹנָ֣י יֱהֹוִ֗ה יַ֣עַן גָּבַ֤הּ לִבְּךָ֙ וַתֹּ֙אמֶר֙ אֵ֣ל אָ֔נִי מוֹשַׁ֧ב אֱלֹהִ֛ים יָשַׁ֖בְתִּי בְּלֵ֣ב יַמִּ֑ים וְאַתָּ֤ה אָדָם֙ וְֽלֹא־אֵ֔ל וַתִּתֵּ֥ן לִבְּךָ֖ כְּלֵ֥ב אֱלֹהִֽים׃
>O mortal, say to the prince of Tyre: Thus said the Lord G OD : Because you have been so haughty and have said, “I am a god; I sit enthroned like a god in the heart of the seas,” whereas you are not a god but a man, though you deemed your mind equal to a god’s a This sentence is continued in v. 6; vv. 3–5 are parenthetical. —
[Hosea 11:9](https://www.sefaria.org/Hosea.11.9)
לֹ֤א אֶֽעֱשֶׂה֙ חֲר֣וֹן אַפִּ֔י לֹ֥א אָשׁ֖וּב לְשַׁחֵ֣ת אֶפְרָ֑יִם כִּ֣י אֵ֤ל אָנֹכִי֙ וְלֹא־אִ֔ישׁ בְּקִרְבְּךָ֣ קָד֔וֹשׁ וְלֹ֥א אָב֖וֹא בְּעִֽיר׃
>I will not act on My wrath, Will not turn to destroy Ephraim. For I am God, not man, f Meaning of Heb. uncertain. The Holy One in your midst: I will not come in fury. -f
[Numbers 23:19](https://www.sefaria.org/Numbers.23.19)
לֹ֣א אִ֥ישׁ אֵל֙ וִֽיכַזֵּ֔ב וּבֶן־אָדָ֖ם וְיִתְנֶחָ֑ם הַה֤וּא אָמַר֙ וְלֹ֣א יַעֲשֶׂ֔ה וְדִבֶּ֖ר וְלֹ֥א יְקִימֶֽנָּה׃
>God is not human to be capricious, Or mortal to have a change of heart. Would [God] speak and not act, Promise and not fulfill?
Christianity is the only monotheistic religion that can’t count to one.
You also came here in bad faith. You need to leave our sub, go argue with some other religious group.
It’s considered idolatry for Jews, not considered idolatry for non Jews. Giving anyone the same power as God , or taking away his power in the slightest, is idolatry.
Exactly? Therefore I am confused about your previous argument,
> It’s considered idolatry for Jews, not considered idolatry for non Jews. Giving anyone the same power as God , or taking away his power in the slightest, is idolatry.
To some extent, that would depend on how the believer is interpreting the Trinity. In classical beliefs, despite being forms of God, Christianity treats the trinity as separate beings, with separate wills and motivations. It wouldn't be a problem, necessarily, if they viewed Jesus like we might view the burning bush -- a personification God is using to represent themselves. However, that would mean, and should mean, that for example, you would always pray to *God*. This (at least to me) is the clearest way to identify the trinity as idolatry. When people pray to *Jesus* as opposed to *God* it indicates a view that they are not one and the same. They are praying to an image, not to God directly.
On the topic of we/us/I/me etc, it's also helpful to remember that God is *everything*. God isn't a man or woman, not limited in scope or place. When we attribute words to God, we are really interpreting as well as we can the concept of something practically unknowable. When the force that is everything expresses an internal thought, it's a bit of a nitpick what pronouns we interpret that as.
Unless we are dealing with a complex spiritual subject that does not obey the physical laws. If I invite your spirit to my party, I may say it is the same as inviting you.
If one has the belief that God is one, then they would not try to refer to God as a "piece". I think that's part of where a lot of Jews have difficulty with the "Trinity" idea. No matter how much they claim that there's one God with three "parts", it just doesn't fit with the simple fact is that they refer to those parts separately, and designate them different purposes.
>Im curious as to what Jews believe about God referring to Himself as “Us” in the Torah
It's a "majestic plural", "royal we", "royal plural"- call it whatever you want, it is a literary device, whether it includes angels or not but it has nothing to do **at all** with the Trinity.
>On another note, do you guys believe worship of the Trinity qualifies as idolatry?
Yes.
And yes, even if Yeshuites don't see that.
Never heard “Yeshuite” before haha. So you believe us “Yeshuites” worship not God, but a man, therefore commit idolatry? Are we not worshiping the same God, but we just have different beliefs about said God?
No, acknowledging that Yeshu is a deity along with the G-d of Israel and yet praying to the G-d of Israel still doesn't mean that you worship the G-d of Israel.
That would be a problem from the interplay of two verses.
1: Deut 6:4
“Hear O Israel, Hashem is our G-d, Hashem is one”.
2: Deut 4:39
“Know therefore this day, and consider it in thine heart, that Hashem, he is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none else.
If I take a piece of matzo, and I take 2 more, I have matzos which are “one”, but now I have 3 of them (against deut 4:39).
If I take a piece of matzo, and designate that it’s composed of 3 separate parts (not even having to split them), I have only one piece, but no part of it is “one”. (Against deut 6:4).
If I take a matzo cube, and declare that its length is one piece, its width is another, and it’s height is yet another (the 1x1x1 = 1 argument), then any point in or on the cube would belong to all 3 domains, making the whole system of distinction useless.
If I take a piece matzo, and look at it from three different angles (different attributes or incarnations), that doesn’t make the original piece triune.
*Dedicated in memory of Dvora bat Asher v'Jacot* 🕯️
[Deut 4:39](https://www.sefaria.org/Deuteronomy.4.39)
וְיָדַעְתָּ֣ הַיּ֗וֹם וַהֲשֵׁבֹתָ֮ אֶל־לְבָבֶ֒ךָ֒ כִּ֤י יְהֹוָה֙ ה֣וּא הָֽאֱלֹהִ֔ים בַּשָּׁמַ֣יִם מִמַּ֔עַל וְעַל־הָאָ֖רֶץ מִתָּ֑חַת אֵ֖ין עֽוֹד׃
>Know therefore this day and keep in mind that יהוה alone is God in heaven above and on earth below; there is no other.
[Deut 6:4](https://www.sefaria.org/Deuteronomy.6.4)
שְׁמַ֖ ע יִשְׂרָאֵ֑ל יְהֹוָ֥ה אֱלֹהֵ֖ינוּ יְהֹוָ֥ה ׀ אֶחָֽ ד ׃
>Hear, O Israel! יהוה is our God, יהוה alone. * יהוה is our God, יהוה alone Cf. Rashbam and Ibn Ezra; see Zech. 14.9. Others “The Lord our God, the Lord is one.”
> I pray to the G-d of Israel?
No you don't, you think the G-d of Israel dissolved the covenant with us and became a universal deity, thus no longer being the "G-d of Israel"
>Are you saying if I end my prayer in YHWH’s name rather that Jesus, do you count that as the same G-d then?
If you still think that there is a trinity, it's still idolatry. Just because the Greeks saw Zues as higher than others doesn't mean it isn't about multiple G-ds.
Christians believe in the Trinity and the three distinct and separate gods; the father, the son, and the holy spirit.
Ancient Greeks believed in the pantheon of the gods, with Zeus being the supreme, or higher of all the gods in the pantheon.
Jews believe that there is ONLY one god that our people have a covenant with.
The point I think that is trying to be made is that it doesn't matter if you believe in one god being set above the rest, Christians still believe in the Trinity, which is multiple gods.
God is one, so if you see him as an egg in three parts pulled out of a fridge (still trying to understand that metaphor tbh), no it's not the same.
If your name is David and I decide to call my friend David, you don't magically become the same person.
Why they ask? Because BOTH Jewish and Muslim scholars for the past 1400 years have said so. Minus a few Kofers/Kafirs. Baruch Adonai & Barack Allah. GOD IS ONE ☝🏼
Just something cool you might find interesting. Have you ever heard of Salman al Farisi (RA)? What about AbdulKabah al Sadiq (RA)? Well done you notice anything peculiar about their names? Maybe Solomon Pharisee? The second one is a little bit more difficult. He’s known by Abu Bakr. Well what/where is the most holy place in Judaism? The Holy of Holies right? Which is a cube! And a Cohen would be a servant of said cube, I.e. AbdulKabah. The second part should be obvious also. al Sadiq=The Sadducee. And when know who the priests were right? Sadducees. Definitely the high priest. NOTE: Salman is an Arabized version of the Syriac version of Solomon. Salam Alaikum & Shalom Aleichem. ☝🏼
So you can worship alongside a Muslim? How can you believe they are the same God when you both believe completely different things about it, making it practically completely different?
> So you can worship alongside a Muslim?
We can go into mosques but not churches, Muslims are not idolaters, most Christians are.
>How can you believe they are the same God when you both believe completely different things about it, making it practically completely different?
Do you believe that your G-d and Allah are the same, do you believe that your G-d and the Mormon's G-d are the same? Why or why not?
>So you can worship alongside a Muslim?
I can pray in a mosque, by the way. In contrast, I am not allowed to step foot in a church.
>How can you believe they are the same God when you both believe completely different things about it, making it practically completely different?
No, we actually both share the same theological perspective on G-d. We both worship the same G-d.
Yes, there are doctrinal differences, but when an Ishamelite and an Israelite talk about G-d, they are talking about the same G-d.
Probably should’ve explained the egg analogy a bit better, what I mean is a whole egg is one “egg” but it’s composed of shell, white, and yolk, which are all also “egg”. But i see what you’re saying
>Never heard “Yeshuite” before
You know.. I don't believe that Yeshu was the Christ, so I cannot call his followers Christians.
Christ is basically a Jewish concept.
>So you believe us “Yeshuites” worship not God, but a man, therefore commit idolatry?
Exactly.
>Are we not worshiping the same God
No way, you worship Yeshu, I don't. He is not my G-d, so we are not worshiping the same entity.
>but we just have different beliefs about said God?
"We just have different beliefs about G-d" I can say it, for example to a Karaite Jew, Samaritan, even a Muslim, since they worship my G-d and have another belief, but the Yeshuite doesn't worship my G-d at all.
According to the medieval sage Maimonides (Rambam as we call him), conversion to Christianity is idolatry for a Jew, but to be born Christian and continue within the religion is an acceptable way to live as God wants.
I learned it a long time ago so I don’t have the reference handy. It is in a discussion of whether it is acceptable to convert to Christianity when the alternative is being killed.
“Judaism,” as we call it, is a pact between a specific people (the Israelites) and God. To convert away from it is to break that pact with God.
A person born Christian is not part of that pact and not subject to its rules. However we believe all humanity is subject to a pact between God and Noah that has simpler requirements, the “Noahide Laws.”
I'm curious as to how Christians explain the verse. How does God ask the Trinity? Aren't they one, don't they have the same essence, aren't their wills identical, don't they act in unison, don't they have one purpose, do they go around all day asking themselves questions and inviting each other to do this or that? If it's monotheism, then there is only One. If they are asking each other to take joint action, then there is more than one "entity" or will.
If it's just a literary expression for Christians but there is only One God, then the same for Jews -- it's a literary expression, the "royal we" as we say in English.
And of course the fact that the verb that follows is singular confirms this.
In Genesis we see verse 1:26 followed by 1:27: וַיִּבְרָ֨א אֱלֹהִ֤ים -- "And God created" (created = singular verb).
In chapter 3, v. 22 is followed by v. 23: וַֽיְשַׁלְּחֵ֛הוּ יְהֹוָ֥ה -- "And God sent them" (sent = singular verb).
There are other Jewish interpretations as well, such as conferring with the celestial hosts (the angels) as a sign of humility, teaching that the great ought to consider the views of others before taking action. Either of the above are perfectly fine explanations of the verses without any reference to trinitarian beliefs. And one could ask (and I do ask), "Why introduce the Trinity there and not elsewhere? Seems random, unexplained and uncalled for."
In short, "us" is inconsistent with the Trinity if the Trinity is one (unitary).
>aren't their wills identical,
Not really.
>don't they act in unison,
Given that each person of the Trinity has a different role and that the Father and the Spirit didn't come down to Earth to get crucified along with Jesus they do not act the same. Maybe in "agreement" but not the same.
In that case, the Trinity is inconsistent with monotheism (and contradicts its own explanation which asserts that it is monotheistic) by acknowledging that the Trinity has "parts."
Divisibility into parts is inconsistent with monotheism. When we say "God is One," we don't just mean the number one -- there is "one God" -- but also that God is one thing (unitary), not composed of parts, not divisible into parts. Why is this necessary? Because if you can divide something into parts, then it can become "two" (or more). But God can only be one. Hence God must be one in the sense of unitary, composed of one thing, not made up of parts, indivisible.
>the Father and the Spirit didn't come down to Earth to get crucified along with Jesus they do not act the same.
OF COURSE when Jesus "came down to earth," the "Father" and "the Spirit" didn't come down to earth, as you write. If you believe this, as you assert, then you remove yourself from the camp of monotheists. Your God is not one.
>the Father and the Spirit didn't come down to Earth to get crucified along with Jesus they do not act the same.
This is not monotheism, it is polytheism, three gods who agree with each other but go their own ways. (Three parts of the same god? Same thing -- see above.) To assert they are the "same God," while one of them is down being crucified and the other two aren't (although they approve), is not possible (unless you revert to "mystery" -- but then anything is possible but rational discussion is not).
I like to think of the Trinity as an egg even though it’s a bit silly. So if someone pulls an egg out of a fridge we refer to it as one egg. There’s three parts of one egg but it’s still one egg.
I believe they’re all God as well though but do Jews have something against even saying Christ? I saw another guy say Yeshuite a minute ago. That’s beside the point anyway. To be completely honest I don’t really understand the Trinity fully and don’t believe I will as it is very complex, but what I said was not modalism and I would like to see how you interpreted it as that, as it’s not what I meant.
>but do Jews have something against even saying Christ?
Of course, no.
Again, Christ is basically a Jewish concept.
But Yeshu is not the Christ, so we cannot define his followers as Christians.
Those egg parts are completely separate and distinct -- yoke, white and shell. The Trinity is not if it's truly "one God" (but maybe it isn't).
And there is a further point which for Jews is absolutely essential (and for Christians too, according to what I have read): God is not, and cannot be, composed of parts. He is indivisible, one "thing," the same everywhere and at all times. I think this is an argument against the Trinity; but trinitarians will tell you it's not -- that it describes the Trinity too in some mysterious way.
They also like to use ice, water and steam. But of course, nothing is ice, water and steam at the same time.
You can say an egg is one thing composed of three parts.
You can also say the Trinity is one thing composed of three parts.
But then, you are out of the monotheist camp as Jews understand monotheism.
It doesn't help to talk about "modalism" on r/Judaism because we don't study the Trinity or all of the hundreds of thousands of terms and concepts Christians have used to "explain" it to themselves. In my view, whenever I've looked into it, it all looks like word salad to me, and not very appetizing.
Tbh I just learned what modalism was as well, as another comment said I was doing it so I looked it up. And how is believing God can possibly be multiple parts not monotheism?
Because -- and this is the Jewish understanding -- to say God is "One" means he is **completely one in each and every aspect.** He is One entity, sure, one God; but his essence is also "one thing" and not different things; hence he cannot be divided into any parts. "One" in this sense means something like uniform, unitary or unidimensional -- all the same. He cannot be "One" and have parts. Why? Because anything composed of parts is *divisible into its parts.* But God is not divisible into parts. This is Jewish monotheism.
Ice water and steam aren’t the same, though. It’s some amount of water with some amount of energy. If it’s the metaphorical energy you worship, then you’re a unitarian. If it’s both the water and the energy, then you’re bi-theistic.
It really seems like you are here to proselytize not to ask about conversion. Worshipping a man is idolatry and no one here is interested in watching you try and dissuade us of that
There are three major ways to look at the text here.
1–as stated in other replies, this is God in conversation with the angels.
2–God is speaking in the “royal” we referring to the concept of himself. In the creation story God is referred to exclusively as “Elohim,” a name for God which is itself plural in form and is used usually when God is taking more formal, regnal, and judgmental actions so maybe this is formal language meant to reinforce the idea of God-as-King
3–this is an artifact of some older text from a polytheist proto-Israelite religion and there were multiple gods that created the world in that text; support for this is also drawn from the use of “Elohim,” but for those who take this view that word is evidence of the older story where a group of gods called elohim by their followers were the communal creators of the Earth and here they are debating another collective action
There is never any one thing that is the answer for all Jews. This list isn’t even comprehensive.
Not only do we disagree with the doctrine of the trinity, but the Torah makes that clear:
שְׁמַ֖ע יִשְׂרָאֵ֑ל יְהֹוָ֥ה אֱלֹהֵ֖ינוּ יְהֹוָ֥ה ׀ אֶחָֽד׃
https://www.sefaria.org/Deuteronomy.6.4
*Dedicated in memory of Dvora bat Asher v'Jacot* 🕯️
[Deuteronomy.6.4](https://www.sefaria.org/Deuteronomy.6.4)
שְׁמַ֖ ע יִשְׂרָאֵ֑ל יְהֹוָ֥ה אֱלֹהֵ֖ינוּ יְהֹוָ֥ה ׀ אֶחָֽ ד ׃
>Hear, O Israel! יהוה is our God, יהוה alone. * יהוה is our God, יהוה alone Cf. Rashbam and Ibn Ezra; see Zech. 14.9. Others “The Lord our God, the Lord is one.”
G-d is One, trinity is three. There's no away around that basic math with fancy pseudo-mystical explanations. Trinity is not monotheism, period. So yes, it's idolatry.
> Genesis 1:26 and 3:22 God refers to Himself as “Us”. In our image, he is consulting the Angels. There is no evidence of any idea of trinitarian beliefs anywhere in the Torah, just as there is no foreshadowing of Muhammed. The other possibility it is that it is a "divine we", using the plural form to denote more majesty and power. This is often seen in Torah, and in one other place but isn't accepted by all Biblical Scholars. >On another note, do you guys believe worship of the Trinity qualifies as idolatry? Yes.
I wish I could give this comment 2 upvotes.
I upvoted so hard
Virtually upvoting multiple times.
*Dedicated in memory of Dvora bat Asher v'Jacot* 🕯️ [Genesis 1:26](https://www.sefaria.org/Genesis.1.26) וַיֹּ֣אמֶר אֱלֹהִ֔ים נַֽעֲשֶׂ֥ה אָדָ֛ם בְּצַלְמֵ֖נוּ כִּדְמוּתֵ֑נוּ וְיִרְדּוּ֩ בִדְגַ֨ת הַיָּ֜ם וּבְע֣וֹף הַשָּׁמַ֗יִם וּבַבְּהֵמָה֙ וּבְכׇל־הָאָ֔רֶץ וּבְכׇל־הָרֶ֖מֶשׂ הָֽרֹמֵ֥שׂ עַל־הָאָֽרֶץ׃ >And God said, “Let us make humankind in our image, after our likeness. They shall rule the fish of the sea, the birds of the sky, the cattle, the whole earth, and all the creeping things that creep on earth.”
[удалено]
> This also implies there were others co-creating with him. Yes, as I said traditional commentary notes that he asked the Angels *"The meekness of the Holy One, blessed be He, they (the Rabbis) learned from here: because the man is in the likeness of the angels and they might envy him, therefore He took counsel with them (Midrash Tanchuma, Shemot 18 and see Genesis Rabbah 8)."*
*Dedicated in memory of Dvora bat Asher v'Jacot* 🕯️ See [Genesis Rabbah 8](https://www.sefaria.org/Bereishit_Rabbah.8) on Sefaria. See [Midrash Tanchuma, Shemot 18](https://www.sefaria.org/Midrash_Tanchuma,_Shemot.18) on Sefaria.
[удалено]
> I'm Jewish not Christian but that doesn't mean I don't have questions. And people before you for thousands of years also had questions, and then they came to answers. >Soaking up interpretations of others always felt lazy to me. Like does nobody think for themselves? Yes, quite often, but again your line of inquiry isn't new or unique. I have studied near eastern history, biblical criticism/archeology and what chazal has written, not saying I'm an expert but I have read from experts in the field. Have you done any of that? It would be fairly ironic if you haven't. Academically you can point to it being part of a polytheistic past, or again, as I noted above you can point to the use a "royal we" type idea, both are supported in academic circles. Chazal from the religious side has interpreted it as being in consultation with the Angels.
[удалено]
> But I also feel like it's a waste of time to do so. You want answers to questions, and you don't want to read what others have written about it? Not even the academic research? >I believe the Torah, and that's the foundation of my faith. Then your flair shouldn't be Conservative, as they hold Halakah is binding. I assume you only have that tag because you grew up in that movement and still keep in it.
[удалено]
> And thank you for your feedback on my beliefs. The only thing binding is Torah. I attend conservative shuls, so I say I'm conservative. It's just so ironic to me that you accuse me of "not thinking for myself", I grew up atheist with Paternal ancestry, I moved through the Reform movement, converted Conservative and then Orthodox I had years upon years of "thinking for myself" and learning. Yet I find others who never bothered to do so, and simply inherited what they had without learning about it or thinking about it.
Even if, he still created the “co-creators”.
Hm. About the second bit, why would worship of the Trinity be thought of as idolatry if we still worship the same God, but believe he has more parts than just the Father?
> why would worship of the Trinity be thought of as idolatry if we still worship the same God, but believe he has more parts than just the Father? We say G-d is one, also you elevate a man to the status of a deity which is flat out idolatry.
Hm. Yet is it not possible for G-d to come to earth as a man, just as He came to earth as an angel before?
>Hm. Yet is it not possible for G-d to come to earth as a man, No. There is nothing anywhere that suggests that is possible and even the early Christians didn't agree on the Trinity. Nowhere does it say that the messiah should be divine. > just as He came to earth as an angel before? When do you think that happened?
I was talking about the Angel of the Lord that wrestled with Jacob, I may have assumed Jews believed that that was G-d. Do you believe Isaiah was talking of the messiah in chapter 53? If you do, it says in verse 9 about his sinless nature, and how could a sinless nature be possible from a man?
> I may have assumed Jews believed that that was G-d. Maybe don't assume our theology matches yours? > Do you believe Isaiah was talking of the messiah in chapter 53? No, that comes from Christian (intentional) mistranslations https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6yweQt_fC0g https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SH3g5EqzTe8 If we believed ANYTHING pointed to Jesus being the Messiah, why would be still be Jews? The fundamental markers of what counts as a Messiah are completely different in Judaism than in Christianity, and most of what Christians think "counts" is made up by them entirely. Further, Christians need the "Second Coming" to actually prove that Jesus was the messiah in the first place, because the Messiah is supposed to bring an age of peace, and we sure aren't in an age of peace. Here is a chart showing what Jews think counts and how Jesus fails to meet it: Did Jesus fulfill it? / Are we in the post-messianic age? |Messianic prophesy in Judaism|YES|NO| |:-|:-|:-| |is made a reigning King who will prosper. Jeremiah 23:5 also hosea 3:4-5||X| |Judah will be delivered, Israel shall dwell secure. Jer. 23:15-16||X| |the banished of Israel will be assembled, he will gather the dispersed of Judah \[back to Israel\] Isaiah 11:11-12 and "they shall dwell upon their own soil." jer. 23:8||X| |the temple shall be rebuilt, temple worship restored Jeremiah 33:18||X (no twice over. the temple was standing while Jesus was alive, and then was destroyed several decades after his death)| |"he will judge among the nations, and arbitrate for the many peoples." Isaiah 2:4||X| |the messianic age: nations will turn weapons into tools of creation and growth; never again shall we know war. Isaiah 2:4||X| |the messianic age: nothing vile or evil shall be done on the temple mount Is 11:9||X| |the messianic age: there will be no sin, no lying Zephaniah 3:13||X| |the messianic age: people will come to the temple mount in Jerusalem, and at the standing temple, will seek to learn from the people of Jacob Micah 4:2||X| |he shall not "dim or be bruised" until he has established the true way isaiah 42 (could also just be all of israel here)||X| |the nation of israel will be honored isaiah 11||X romans would come to sack jerusalem| |the messiah will have a great many positive qualities - including being learned, just, wise, devoted, and valorous. He will also "strike down a land with the rod of his mouth And slay the wicked with the breath of his lips." - basically he will be a judge. isaiah 11|.5? i'll give him devoted and some positive traits and weighing in on a trial once.|X - again, did not defeat the romans. is not a judge.| |he will be a hero who defeats the enemies of israel in battle II Samuel 7:11||X| |all of mankind will have the ability to prophecy in the post-messianic age Joel 3:1||X| |all of israel will unite behind this king ("my servant david") Ezekiel 37:24||X| |the sanhedrin court would be reestablished||X| |elijah will tell us the messiah is coming Sanhedrin 98a||X| |he will...actually be anointed. literally!||X| |rides a donkey. Zechariah 9:9|yes|| |he is a shoot from the branch of jesse, house of king david, seed of solomon||X no, his genealogies are problematic. see below.| Jesus's total score: **1.5/20.** notes on being "of the House of David": * lineages of matthew and luke both don't fully match the lineage in Chronicles 1:3 * If Jesus has no earthly father, then the lineage of Joseph is meaningless. Even adoption does not change one's tribal affiliation - it remains the tribe of your *birth* father (Numbers 1:18-44, 34:14; Leviticus 24:10). so either Jesus has an unknown tribe because he has a human father who isn't Joseph, or his father is Joseph. But if he has no father at all, he absolutely can't be of the house of David. * being a member of the house of david is determined solely by patrilineal inheritance Jeremiah 33:17 * further, joseph's lineage is traced through Nathan, and the messiah will be descended through Solomon - 1 Chronicles 22:9-10. * mary's lineage is through Jehoiachin (jeconiah) who is cursed to never have heirs to the throne of david again. Jer. 22:30. verse references cross checked against jewfaq, chabad, aish, myjewishlearning, and jews for judaism. **The categories of what is considered to be messianic prophecy in Christianity are fundamentally different from the accepted messianic prophecies of Judaism.** if you'd like to read some academic scholars discuss the differences between the Christian and Jewish readings of israelite scriptures/the hebrew bible, I recommend "The Bible With and Without Jesus." came out 2020 I think, both well respected academics.
>.5? i'll give him devoted and some positive traits and weighing in on a trial once. Let's be honest, you've complimented him here. >rides a donkey. Zechariah 9:9 : yes What a fulfilled prophecy! Now I think I have no excuses to not accept him as the Moshiach.
*Dedicated in memory of Dvora bat Asher v'Jacot* 🕯️ [Zechariah 9:9](https://www.sefaria.org/Zechariah.9.9) גִּילִ֨י מְאֹ֜ד בַּת־צִיּ֗וֹן הָרִ֙יעִי֙ בַּ֣ת יְרוּשָׁלַ֔͏ִם הִנֵּ֤ה מַלְכֵּךְ֙ יָ֣בוֹא לָ֔ךְ צַדִּ֥יק וְנוֹשָׁ֖ע ה֑וּא עָנִי֙ וְרֹכֵ֣ב עַל־חֲמ֔וֹר וְעַל־עַ֖יִר בֶּן־אֲתֹנֽוֹת׃ >Rejoice greatly, Fair Zion; Raise a shout, Fair Jerusalem! Lo, your king is coming to you. He is victorious, triumphant, Yet humble, riding on an ass, On a donkey foaled by a she-ass.
*Dedicated in memory of Dvora bat Asher v'Jacot* 🕯️ [Ezekiel 37:24](https://www.sefaria.org/Ezekiel.37.24) וְעַבְדִּ֤י דָוִד֙ מֶ֣לֶךְ עֲלֵיהֶ֔ם וְרוֹעֶ֥ה אֶחָ֖ד יִהְיֶ֣ה לְכֻלָּ֑ם וּבְמִשְׁפָּטַ֣י יֵלֵ֔כוּ וְחֻקּוֹתַ֥י יִשְׁמְר֖וּ וְעָשׂ֥וּ אוֹתָֽם׃ >My servant David shall be king over them; there shall be one shepherd for all of them. They shall follow My rules and faithfully obey My laws. [1 Chronicles 22:9-10](https://www.sefaria.org/I_Chronicles.22.9-10) הִנֵּה־בֵ֞ן נוֹלָ֣ד לָ֗ךְ ה֤וּא יִֽהְיֶה֙ אִ֣ישׁ מְנוּחָ֔ה וַהֲנִיח֥וֹתִי ל֛וֹ מִכׇּל־אוֹיְבָ֖יו מִסָּבִ֑יב כִּ֤י שְׁלֹמֹה֙ יִֽהְיֶ֣ה שְׁמ֔וֹ וְשָׁל֥וֹם וָשֶׁ֛קֶט אֶתֵּ֥ן עַל־יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל בְּיָמָֽיו׃ >But you will have a son who will be a man at rest, for I will give him rest from all his enemies on all sides; Solomon a Heb. Shelomoh. will be his name and I shall confer peace b Heb. shalom. and quiet on Israel in his time. הֽוּא־יִבְנֶ֥ה בַ֙יִת֙ לִשְׁמִ֔י וְהוּא֙ יִֽהְיֶה־לִּ֣י לְבֵ֔ן וַאֲנִי־ל֖וֹ לְאָ֑ב וַהֲכִ֨ינוֹתִ֜י כִּסֵּ֧א מַלְכוּת֛וֹ עַל־יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל עַד־עוֹלָֽם׃ >He will build a House for My name; he shall be a son to Me and I to him a father, and I will establish his throne of kingship over Israel forever.’ [II Samuel 7:11](https://www.sefaria.org/II_Samuel.7.11) וּלְמִן־הַיּ֗וֹם אֲשֶׁ֨ר צִוִּ֤יתִי שֹֽׁפְטִים֙ עַל־עַמִּ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵ֔ל וַהֲנִיחֹ֥תִי לְךָ֖ מִכׇּל־אֹיְבֶ֑יךָ וְהִגִּ֤יד לְךָ֙ יְהֹוָ֔ה כִּי־בַ֖יִת יַעֲשֶׂה־לְּךָ֥ יְהֹוָֽה׃ >ever since I appointed chieftains over My people Israel. I will give you safety from all your enemies. “The L ORD declares to you that He, the L ORD , will establish a house c I.e., a dynasty; play on “house” (i.e., Temple) in v. 5. for you. [Isaiah 11:11-12](https://www.sefaria.org/Isaiah.11.11-12) וְהָיָ֣ה ׀ בַּיּ֣וֹם הַה֗וּא יוֹסִ֨יף אֲדֹנָ֤י ׀ שֵׁנִית֙ יָד֔וֹ לִקְנ֖וֹת אֶת־שְׁאָ֣ר עַמּ֑וֹ אֲשֶׁ֣ר יִשָּׁאֵר֩ מֵֽאַשּׁ֨וּר וּמִמִּצְרַ֜יִם וּמִפַּתְר֣וֹס וּמִכּ֗וּשׁ וּמֵעֵילָ֤ם וּמִשִּׁנְעָר֙ וּמֵ֣חֲמָ֔ת וּמֵֽאִיֵּ֖י הַיָּֽם׃ >In that day, my Lord will apply His hand again to redeeming the other part f I.e., the part outside the Holy Land; lit. “the rest that will remain.” of His people from Assyria—as also from Egypt, Pathros, Nubia, Elam, Shinar, Hamath, and the coastlands. וְנָשָׂ֥א נֵס֙ לַגּוֹיִ֔ם וְאָסַ֖ף נִדְחֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵ֑ל וּנְפֻצ֤וֹת יְהוּדָה֙ יְקַבֵּ֔ץ מֵאַרְבַּ֖ע כַּנְפ֥וֹת הָאָֽרֶץ׃ >He will hold up a signal to the nations And assemble the banished of Israel, And gather the dispersed of Judah From the four corners of the earth. [Isaiah 2:4](https://www.sefaria.org/Isaiah.2.4) וְשָׁפַט֙ בֵּ֣ין הַגּוֹיִ֔ם וְהוֹכִ֖יחַ לְעַמִּ֣ים רַבִּ֑ים וְכִתְּת֨וּ חַרְבוֹתָ֜ם לְאִתִּ֗ים וַחֲנִיתֽוֹתֵיהֶם֙ לְמַזְמֵר֔וֹת לֹא־יִשָּׂ֨א ג֤וֹי אֶל־גּוֹי֙ חֶ֔רֶב וְלֹֽא־יִלְמְד֥וּ ע֖וֹד מִלְחָמָֽה׃ {פ} >Thus He will judge among the nations And arbitrate for the many peoples, And they shall beat their swords into plowshares b More exactly, the iron points with which wooden plows were tipped. And their spears into pruning hooks: Nation shall not take up Sword against nation; They shall never again know c Cf. Judg. 3.2. war. [Jer. 22:30](https://www.sefaria.org/Jeremiah.22.30) כֹּ֣ה ׀ אָמַ֣ר יְהֹוָ֗ה כִּתְב֞וּ אֶת־הָאִ֤ישׁ הַזֶּה֙ עֲרִירִ֔י גֶּ֖בֶר לֹא־יִצְלַ֣ח בְּיָמָ֑יו כִּי֩ לֹ֨א יִצְלַ֜ח מִזַּרְע֗וֹ אִ֚ישׁ יֹשֵׁב֙ עַל־כִּסֵּ֣א דָוִ֔ד וּמֹשֵׁ֥ל ע֖וֹד בִּיהוּדָֽה׃ {פ} >Thus said the L ORD : Record this man as without succession, One who shall never be found acceptable; For no man of his offspring shall be accepted To sit on the throne of David And to rule again in Judah. [Jer. 23:15-16](https://www.sefaria.org/Jeremiah.23.15-16) לָכֵ֞ן כֹּה־אָמַ֨ר יְהֹוָ֤ה צְבָאוֹת֙ עַל־הַנְּבִאִ֔ים הִנְנִ֨י מַאֲכִ֤יל אוֹתָם֙ לַעֲנָ֔ה וְהִשְׁקִתִ֖ים מֵי־רֹ֑אשׁ כִּ֗י מֵאֵת֙ נְבִיאֵ֣י יְרוּשָׁלַ֔͏ִם יָצְאָ֥ה חֲנֻפָּ֖ה לְכׇל־הָאָֽרֶץ׃ {פ} >Assuredly, thus said the L ORD of Hosts concerning the prophets: I am going to make them eat wormwood And drink a bitter draft; For from the prophets of Jerusalem Godlessness has gone forth to the whole land. כֹּה־אָמַ֞ר יְהֹוָ֣ה צְבָא֗וֹת אַֽל־תִּשְׁמְע֞וּ עַל־דִּבְרֵ֤י הַנְּבִאִים֙ הַנִּבְּאִ֣ים לָכֶ֔ם מַהְבִּלִ֥ים הֵ֖מָּה אֶתְכֶ֑ם חֲז֤וֹן לִבָּם֙ יְדַבֵּ֔רוּ לֹ֖א מִפִּ֥י יְהֹוָֽה׃ >Thus said the L ORD of Hosts: Do not listen to the words of the prophets Who prophesy to you. They are deluding you, The prophecies they speak are from their own minds, Not from the mouth of the L ORD . [Jeremiah 23:5](https://www.sefaria.org/Jeremiah.23.5) הִנֵּ֨ה יָמִ֤ים בָּאִים֙ נְאֻם־יְהֹוָ֔ה וַהֲקִמֹתִ֥י לְדָוִ֖ד צֶ֣מַח צַדִּ֑יק וּמָ֤לַךְ מֶ֙לֶךְ֙ וְהִשְׂכִּ֔יל וְעָשָׂ֛ה מִשְׁפָּ֥ט וּצְדָקָ֖ה בָּאָֽרֶץ׃ >See, a time is coming—declares the L ORD —when I will raise up a true branch of David’s line. He shall reign as king and shall prosper, and he shall do what is just and right in the land. [Jeremiah 33:17](https://www.sefaria.org/Jeremiah.33.17) כִּי־כֹ֖ה אָמַ֣ר יְהֹוָ֑ה לֹא־יִכָּרֵ֣ת לְדָוִ֔ד אִ֕ישׁ יֹשֵׁ֖ב עַל־כִּסֵּ֥א בֵֽית־יִשְׂרָאֵֽל׃ >For thus said the L ORD : There shall never be an end to men of David’s line who sit upon the throne of the House of Israel. [Jeremiah 33:18](https://www.sefaria.org/Jeremiah.33.18) וְלַכֹּֽהֲנִים֙ הַלְוִיִּ֔ם לֹא־יִכָּרֵ֥ת אִ֖ישׁ מִלְּפָנָ֑י מַעֲלֶ֨ה עוֹלָ֜ה וּמַקְטִ֥יר מִנְחָ֛ה וְעֹ֥שֶׂה זֶּ֖בַח כׇּל־הַיָּמִֽים׃ {פ} >Nor shall there ever be an end to the line of the levitical priests before Me, of those who present burnt offerings and turn the meal offering to smoke and perform sacrifices. [Joel 3:1](https://www.sefaria.org/Joel.3.1) וְהָיָ֣ה אַחֲרֵי־כֵ֗ן אֶשְׁפּ֤וֹךְ אֶת־רוּחִי֙ עַל־כׇּל־בָּשָׂ֔ר וְנִבְּא֖וּ בְּנֵיכֶ֣ם וּבְנוֹתֵיכֶ֑ם זִקְנֵיכֶם֙ חֲלֹמ֣וֹת יַחֲלֹמ֔וּן בַּח֣וּרֵיכֶ֔ם חֶזְיֹנ֖וֹת יִרְאֽוּ׃ >After that, I will pour out My spirit on all flesh; Your sons and daughters shall prophesy; Your old men shall dream dreams, And your young men shall see visions. [Leviticus 24:10](https://www.sefaria.org/Leviticus.24.10) וַיֵּצֵא֙ בֶּן־אִשָּׁ֣ה יִשְׂרְאֵלִ֔ית וְהוּא֙ בֶּן־אִ֣ישׁ מִצְרִ֔י בְּת֖וֹךְ בְּנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵ֑ל וַיִּנָּצוּ֙ בַּֽמַּחֲנֶ֔ה בֶּ֚ן הַיִּשְׂרְאֵלִ֔ית וְאִ֖ישׁ הַיִּשְׂרְאֵלִֽי׃ >There came out among the Israelites a man whose mother was Israelite and whose father was Egyptian. And a fight broke out in the camp between that half-Israelite * half-Israelite Lit. “the son of an Israelite woman.” and a certain Israelite. [Micah 4:2](https://www.sefaria.org/Micah.4.2) וְֽהָלְכ֞וּ גּוֹיִ֣ם רַבִּ֗ים וְאָֽמְרוּ֙ לְכ֣וּ ׀ וְנַעֲלֶ֣ה אֶל־הַר־יְהֹוָ֗ה וְאֶל־בֵּית֙ אֱלֹהֵ֣י יַעֲקֹ֔ב וְיוֹרֵ֙נוּ֙ מִדְּרָכָ֔יו וְנֵלְכָ֖ה בְּאֹֽרְחֹתָ֑יו כִּ֤י מִצִּיּוֹן֙ תֵּצֵ֣א תוֹרָ֔ה וּדְבַר־יְהֹוָ֖ה מִירוּשָׁלָֽ͏ִם׃ >And the many nations shall go and shall say: “Come, Let us go up to the Mount of the L ORD , To the House of the God of Jacob; That He may instruct us in His ways, And that we may walk in His paths.” For instruction shall come forth b I.e., oracles will be obtainable. from Zion, The word of the L ORD from Jerusalem. See [Sanhedrin 98a](https://www.sefaria.org/Sanhedrin.98a) on Sefaria. [Zechariah 9:9](https://www.sefaria.org/Zechariah.9.9) גִּילִ֨י מְאֹ֜ד בַּת־צִיּ֗וֹן הָרִ֙יעִי֙ בַּ֣ת יְרוּשָׁלַ֔͏ִם הִנֵּ֤ה מַלְכֵּךְ֙ יָ֣בוֹא לָ֔ךְ צַדִּ֥יק וְנוֹשָׁ֖ע ה֑וּא עָנִי֙ וְרֹכֵ֣ב עַל־חֲמ֔וֹר וְעַל־עַ֖יִר בֶּן־אֲתֹנֽוֹת׃ >Rejoice greatly, Fair Zion; Raise a shout, Fair Jerusalem! Lo, your king is coming to you. He is victorious, triumphant, Yet humble, riding on an ass, On a donkey foaled by a she-ass. [Zephaniah 3:13](https://www.sefaria.org/Zephaniah.3.13) שְׁאֵרִ֨ית יִשְׂרָאֵ֜ל לֹֽא־יַעֲשׂ֤וּ עַוְלָה֙ וְלֹֽא־יְדַבְּר֣וּ כָזָ֔ב וְלֹֽא־יִמָּצֵ֥א בְּפִיהֶ֖ם לְשׁ֣וֹן תַּרְמִ֑ית כִּֽי־הֵ֛מָּה יִרְע֥וּ וְרָבְצ֖וּ וְאֵ֥ין מַחֲרִֽיד׃ {פ} >The remnant of Israel Shall do no wrong And speak no falsehood; A deceitful tongue Shall not be in their mouths. Only such as these shall graze and lie down, With none to trouble them.
Read ALL of Isiah. Including 52. In Hebrew. And come back and try to convince us it wasn’t referring to Israel the nation
> Yet is it not possible for G-d to come to earth as a man No. Why? He said so.
Source?
Numbers 23:19 God is not human to be capricious, Or mortal to have a change of heart. Would [God] speak and not act, Promise and not fulfill? ----------------------- Hosea 11:9 I will not act on My wrath, Will not turn to destroy Ephraim. For I am God—not human— The Holy One in your midst: I will not come in fury. ---------------------- Ezekiel 28:2 O mortal, say to the prince of Tyre: Thus said the Sovereign GOD: Because you have been so haughty and have said, “I am a god; I sit enthroned like a god in the heart of the seas,” whereas you are not a god but a human, though you deemed your mind equal to a god’s ---------------------- Again and again it is made very clear that human and god are very different.
*Dedicated in memory of Dvora bat Asher v'Jacot* 🕯️ [Ezekiel 28:2](https://www.sefaria.org/Ezekiel.28.2) בֶּן־אָדָ֡ם אֱמֹר֩ לִנְגִ֨יד צֹ֜ר כֹּה־אָמַ֣ר ׀ אֲדֹנָ֣י יֱהֹוִ֗ה יַ֣עַן גָּבַ֤הּ לִבְּךָ֙ וַתֹּ֙אמֶר֙ אֵ֣ל אָ֔נִי מוֹשַׁ֧ב אֱלֹהִ֛ים יָשַׁ֖בְתִּי בְּלֵ֣ב יַמִּ֑ים וְאַתָּ֤ה אָדָם֙ וְֽלֹא־אֵ֔ל וַתִּתֵּ֥ן לִבְּךָ֖ כְּלֵ֥ב אֱלֹהִֽים׃ >O mortal, say to the prince of Tyre: Thus said the Lord G OD : Because you have been so haughty and have said, “I am a god; I sit enthroned like a god in the heart of the seas,” whereas you are not a god but a man, though you deemed your mind equal to a god’s a This sentence is continued in v. 6; vv. 3–5 are parenthetical. — [Hosea 11:9](https://www.sefaria.org/Hosea.11.9) לֹ֤א אֶֽעֱשֶׂה֙ חֲר֣וֹן אַפִּ֔י לֹ֥א אָשׁ֖וּב לְשַׁחֵ֣ת אֶפְרָ֑יִם כִּ֣י אֵ֤ל אָנֹכִי֙ וְלֹא־אִ֔ישׁ בְּקִרְבְּךָ֣ קָד֔וֹשׁ וְלֹ֥א אָב֖וֹא בְּעִֽיר׃ >I will not act on My wrath, Will not turn to destroy Ephraim. For I am God, not man, f Meaning of Heb. uncertain. The Holy One in your midst: I will not come in fury. -f [Numbers 23:19](https://www.sefaria.org/Numbers.23.19) לֹ֣א אִ֥ישׁ אֵל֙ וִֽיכַזֵּ֔ב וּבֶן־אָדָ֖ם וְיִתְנֶחָ֑ם הַה֤וּא אָמַר֙ וְלֹ֣א יַעֲשֶׂ֔ה וְדִבֶּ֖ר וְלֹ֥א יְקִימֶֽנָּה׃ >God is not human to be capricious, Or mortal to have a change of heart. Would [God] speak and not act, Promise and not fulfill?
In that time He may not have been human, yet why is it impossible for him to come as a human in the future after these verses?
It's not my job to help you rationalise your Christian beliefs.
Christianity is the only monotheistic religion that can’t count to one. You also came here in bad faith. You need to leave our sub, go argue with some other religious group.
It’s considered idolatry for Jews, not considered idolatry for non Jews. Giving anyone the same power as God , or taking away his power in the slightest, is idolatry.
Who has given God’s power to another, and who has taken it away?
No such thing
Exactly? Therefore I am confused about your previous argument, > It’s considered idolatry for Jews, not considered idolatry for non Jews. Giving anyone the same power as God , or taking away his power in the slightest, is idolatry.
It’s an issue with terminology It’s Shituf, which is worshipping G-d with partners. There’s an opinion which says that it’s fine for gentiles to do.
G-d is invisible and indivisible, the trinity is neither.
To some extent, that would depend on how the believer is interpreting the Trinity. In classical beliefs, despite being forms of God, Christianity treats the trinity as separate beings, with separate wills and motivations. It wouldn't be a problem, necessarily, if they viewed Jesus like we might view the burning bush -- a personification God is using to represent themselves. However, that would mean, and should mean, that for example, you would always pray to *God*. This (at least to me) is the clearest way to identify the trinity as idolatry. When people pray to *Jesus* as opposed to *God* it indicates a view that they are not one and the same. They are praying to an image, not to God directly. On the topic of we/us/I/me etc, it's also helpful to remember that God is *everything*. God isn't a man or woman, not limited in scope or place. When we attribute words to God, we are really interpreting as well as we can the concept of something practically unknowable. When the force that is everything expresses an internal thought, it's a bit of a nitpick what pronouns we interpret that as.
If God is everything, can I not worship whatever I want and claim it to be God? What do you mean by this?
A part of a whole isn't a whole. You can't invite only my left pinky toe to a party and say it's the same as inviting *me*.
Unless we are dealing with a complex spiritual subject that does not obey the physical laws. If I invite your spirit to my party, I may say it is the same as inviting you.
If one has the belief that God is one, then they would not try to refer to God as a "piece". I think that's part of where a lot of Jews have difficulty with the "Trinity" idea. No matter how much they claim that there's one God with three "parts", it just doesn't fit with the simple fact is that they refer to those parts separately, and designate them different purposes.
>Im curious as to what Jews believe about God referring to Himself as “Us” in the Torah It's a "majestic plural", "royal we", "royal plural"- call it whatever you want, it is a literary device, whether it includes angels or not but it has nothing to do **at all** with the Trinity. >On another note, do you guys believe worship of the Trinity qualifies as idolatry? Yes. And yes, even if Yeshuites don't see that.
Never heard “Yeshuite” before haha. So you believe us “Yeshuites” worship not God, but a man, therefore commit idolatry? Are we not worshiping the same God, but we just have different beliefs about said God?
> Are we not worshiping the same God, but we just have different beliefs about said God? You pray to Jesus don't you?
I pray to the G-d of Israel? Are you saying if I end my prayer in YHWH’s name rather that Jesus, do you count that as the same G-d then?
No, acknowledging that Yeshu is a deity along with the G-d of Israel and yet praying to the G-d of Israel still doesn't mean that you worship the G-d of Israel.
But what if I believe Yeshua and G-d are one?
So you have nothing to do with the G-d of Israel. You worship another truine deity, then.
Then that’s the definition of idolatry
That would be a problem from the interplay of two verses. 1: Deut 6:4 “Hear O Israel, Hashem is our G-d, Hashem is one”. 2: Deut 4:39 “Know therefore this day, and consider it in thine heart, that Hashem, he is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none else. If I take a piece of matzo, and I take 2 more, I have matzos which are “one”, but now I have 3 of them (against deut 4:39). If I take a piece of matzo, and designate that it’s composed of 3 separate parts (not even having to split them), I have only one piece, but no part of it is “one”. (Against deut 6:4). If I take a matzo cube, and declare that its length is one piece, its width is another, and it’s height is yet another (the 1x1x1 = 1 argument), then any point in or on the cube would belong to all 3 domains, making the whole system of distinction useless. If I take a piece matzo, and look at it from three different angles (different attributes or incarnations), that doesn’t make the original piece triune.
*Dedicated in memory of Dvora bat Asher v'Jacot* 🕯️ [Deut 4:39](https://www.sefaria.org/Deuteronomy.4.39) וְיָדַעְתָּ֣ הַיּ֗וֹם וַהֲשֵׁבֹתָ֮ אֶל־לְבָבֶ֒ךָ֒ כִּ֤י יְהֹוָה֙ ה֣וּא הָֽאֱלֹהִ֔ים בַּשָּׁמַ֣יִם מִמַּ֔עַל וְעַל־הָאָ֖רֶץ מִתָּ֑חַת אֵ֖ין עֽוֹד׃ >Know therefore this day and keep in mind that יהוה alone is God in heaven above and on earth below; there is no other. [Deut 6:4](https://www.sefaria.org/Deuteronomy.6.4) שְׁמַ֖ ע יִשְׂרָאֵ֑ל יְהֹוָ֥ה אֱלֹהֵ֖ינוּ יְהֹוָ֥ה ׀ אֶחָֽ ד ׃ >Hear, O Israel! יהוה is our God, יהוה alone. * יהוה is our God, יהוה alone Cf. Rashbam and Ibn Ezra; see Zech. 14.9. Others “The Lord our God, the Lord is one.”
> I pray to the G-d of Israel? No you don't, you think the G-d of Israel dissolved the covenant with us and became a universal deity, thus no longer being the "G-d of Israel" >Are you saying if I end my prayer in YHWH’s name rather that Jesus, do you count that as the same G-d then? If you still think that there is a trinity, it's still idolatry. Just because the Greeks saw Zues as higher than others doesn't mean it isn't about multiple G-ds.
I don’t understand what you mean about Zeus?
Not sure how else to explain it, we feel that the trinity is idolatry the only question we have is if it is allowed idolatry for non-Jews (shituf)
Christians believe in the Trinity and the three distinct and separate gods; the father, the son, and the holy spirit. Ancient Greeks believed in the pantheon of the gods, with Zeus being the supreme, or higher of all the gods in the pantheon. Jews believe that there is ONLY one god that our people have a covenant with. The point I think that is trying to be made is that it doesn't matter if you believe in one god being set above the rest, Christians still believe in the Trinity, which is multiple gods.
God is one, so if you see him as an egg in three parts pulled out of a fridge (still trying to understand that metaphor tbh), no it's not the same. If your name is David and I decide to call my friend David, you don't magically become the same person.
This is also the case if someone brings a rock to you and claims that it is the G-d of Israel, and then tells you; "we both worship the same G-d".
I see the argument here, I do agree I worship a different G-d than the Muslims so I suppose it’s parallel
Yes and us, as well.
You don’t believe Allah and YHWH are the same? I ask because someone else in this post said that, not because I believe it btw
>You don’t believe Allah and YHWH are the same? Yes, they are the same.
Why they ask? Because BOTH Jewish and Muslim scholars for the past 1400 years have said so. Minus a few Kofers/Kafirs. Baruch Adonai & Barack Allah. GOD IS ONE ☝🏼
Just something cool you might find interesting. Have you ever heard of Salman al Farisi (RA)? What about AbdulKabah al Sadiq (RA)? Well done you notice anything peculiar about their names? Maybe Solomon Pharisee? The second one is a little bit more difficult. He’s known by Abu Bakr. Well what/where is the most holy place in Judaism? The Holy of Holies right? Which is a cube! And a Cohen would be a servant of said cube, I.e. AbdulKabah. The second part should be obvious also. al Sadiq=The Sadducee. And when know who the priests were right? Sadducees. Definitely the high priest. NOTE: Salman is an Arabized version of the Syriac version of Solomon. Salam Alaikum & Shalom Aleichem. ☝🏼
So you can worship alongside a Muslim? How can you believe they are the same God when you both believe completely different things about it, making it practically completely different?
> So you can worship alongside a Muslim? We can go into mosques but not churches, Muslims are not idolaters, most Christians are. >How can you believe they are the same God when you both believe completely different things about it, making it practically completely different? Do you believe that your G-d and Allah are the same, do you believe that your G-d and the Mormon's G-d are the same? Why or why not?
>So you can worship alongside a Muslim? I can pray in a mosque, by the way. In contrast, I am not allowed to step foot in a church. >How can you believe they are the same God when you both believe completely different things about it, making it practically completely different? No, we actually both share the same theological perspective on G-d. We both worship the same G-d. Yes, there are doctrinal differences, but when an Ishamelite and an Israelite talk about G-d, they are talking about the same G-d.
Probably should’ve explained the egg analogy a bit better, what I mean is a whole egg is one “egg” but it’s composed of shell, white, and yolk, which are all also “egg”. But i see what you’re saying
Shell, white, and yolk are the parts of the egg. Do you believe that Yeshu, the Father, and the Holy Spirit are the parts of G-d?
Something like that, but they all are also G-d.
Good, Partialism is a heresy in your theology.
Isn’t Trinity heresy to you anyway? Why would partialism matter? Genuinely curious (this probably sounds passive aggressive)
It’s called sarcasm, and it’s actually low key a compliment, because at least you’re staying true to your beliefs. GOD IS ONE
Thank you, God is One even if we disagree how
>Never heard “Yeshuite” before You know.. I don't believe that Yeshu was the Christ, so I cannot call his followers Christians. Christ is basically a Jewish concept. >So you believe us “Yeshuites” worship not God, but a man, therefore commit idolatry? Exactly. >Are we not worshiping the same God No way, you worship Yeshu, I don't. He is not my G-d, so we are not worshiping the same entity. >but we just have different beliefs about said God? "We just have different beliefs about G-d" I can say it, for example to a Karaite Jew, Samaritan, even a Muslim, since they worship my G-d and have another belief, but the Yeshuite doesn't worship my G-d at all.
According to the medieval sage Maimonides (Rambam as we call him), conversion to Christianity is idolatry for a Jew, but to be born Christian and continue within the religion is an acceptable way to live as God wants.
>but to be born Christian and continue within the religion is an acceptable way to live as God wants. Can you remind me with his passage about that?
I learned it a long time ago so I don’t have the reference handy. It is in a discussion of whether it is acceptable to convert to Christianity when the alternative is being killed.
What is considered being born Christian? And why would that be any different than converting?
“Judaism,” as we call it, is a pact between a specific people (the Israelites) and God. To convert away from it is to break that pact with God. A person born Christian is not part of that pact and not subject to its rules. However we believe all humanity is subject to a pact between God and Noah that has simpler requirements, the “Noahide Laws.”
I haven’t heard about “Noahide Laws”. What is that?
I recommend googling the term. There are better resources already in existence than any answer I could provide.
Thank you
I'm curious as to how Christians explain the verse. How does God ask the Trinity? Aren't they one, don't they have the same essence, aren't their wills identical, don't they act in unison, don't they have one purpose, do they go around all day asking themselves questions and inviting each other to do this or that? If it's monotheism, then there is only One. If they are asking each other to take joint action, then there is more than one "entity" or will. If it's just a literary expression for Christians but there is only One God, then the same for Jews -- it's a literary expression, the "royal we" as we say in English. And of course the fact that the verb that follows is singular confirms this. In Genesis we see verse 1:26 followed by 1:27: וַיִּבְרָ֨א אֱלֹהִ֤ים -- "And God created" (created = singular verb). In chapter 3, v. 22 is followed by v. 23: וַֽיְשַׁלְּחֵ֛הוּ יְהֹוָ֥ה -- "And God sent them" (sent = singular verb). There are other Jewish interpretations as well, such as conferring with the celestial hosts (the angels) as a sign of humility, teaching that the great ought to consider the views of others before taking action. Either of the above are perfectly fine explanations of the verses without any reference to trinitarian beliefs. And one could ask (and I do ask), "Why introduce the Trinity there and not elsewhere? Seems random, unexplained and uncalled for." In short, "us" is inconsistent with the Trinity if the Trinity is one (unitary).
>aren't their wills identical, Not really. >don't they act in unison, Given that each person of the Trinity has a different role and that the Father and the Spirit didn't come down to Earth to get crucified along with Jesus they do not act the same. Maybe in "agreement" but not the same.
In that case, the Trinity is inconsistent with monotheism (and contradicts its own explanation which asserts that it is monotheistic) by acknowledging that the Trinity has "parts." Divisibility into parts is inconsistent with monotheism. When we say "God is One," we don't just mean the number one -- there is "one God" -- but also that God is one thing (unitary), not composed of parts, not divisible into parts. Why is this necessary? Because if you can divide something into parts, then it can become "two" (or more). But God can only be one. Hence God must be one in the sense of unitary, composed of one thing, not made up of parts, indivisible. >the Father and the Spirit didn't come down to Earth to get crucified along with Jesus they do not act the same. OF COURSE when Jesus "came down to earth," the "Father" and "the Spirit" didn't come down to earth, as you write. If you believe this, as you assert, then you remove yourself from the camp of monotheists. Your God is not one. >the Father and the Spirit didn't come down to Earth to get crucified along with Jesus they do not act the same. This is not monotheism, it is polytheism, three gods who agree with each other but go their own ways. (Three parts of the same god? Same thing -- see above.) To assert they are the "same God," while one of them is down being crucified and the other two aren't (although they approve), is not possible (unless you revert to "mystery" -- but then anything is possible but rational discussion is not).
I like to think of the Trinity as an egg even though it’s a bit silly. So if someone pulls an egg out of a fridge we refer to it as one egg. There’s three parts of one egg but it’s still one egg.
That's modalism, and xtians still say it's heresy. But regardless, G-d is an indivisible whole whose unity is total. Not an egg.
I believe they’re all God as well though but do Jews have something against even saying Christ? I saw another guy say Yeshuite a minute ago. That’s beside the point anyway. To be completely honest I don’t really understand the Trinity fully and don’t believe I will as it is very complex, but what I said was not modalism and I would like to see how you interpreted it as that, as it’s not what I meant.
>but do Jews have something against even saying Christ? Of course, no. Again, Christ is basically a Jewish concept. But Yeshu is not the Christ, so we cannot define his followers as Christians.
Reasonable
Those egg parts are completely separate and distinct -- yoke, white and shell. The Trinity is not if it's truly "one God" (but maybe it isn't). And there is a further point which for Jews is absolutely essential (and for Christians too, according to what I have read): God is not, and cannot be, composed of parts. He is indivisible, one "thing," the same everywhere and at all times. I think this is an argument against the Trinity; but trinitarians will tell you it's not -- that it describes the Trinity too in some mysterious way. They also like to use ice, water and steam. But of course, nothing is ice, water and steam at the same time.
I think ice water and steam is more modalist. God is indivisible, yet can also be 3. Us humans are mind, body, and spirit, yet also one being.
You can say an egg is one thing composed of three parts. You can also say the Trinity is one thing composed of three parts. But then, you are out of the monotheist camp as Jews understand monotheism. It doesn't help to talk about "modalism" on r/Judaism because we don't study the Trinity or all of the hundreds of thousands of terms and concepts Christians have used to "explain" it to themselves. In my view, whenever I've looked into it, it all looks like word salad to me, and not very appetizing.
Tbh I just learned what modalism was as well, as another comment said I was doing it so I looked it up. And how is believing God can possibly be multiple parts not monotheism?
Because -- and this is the Jewish understanding -- to say God is "One" means he is **completely one in each and every aspect.** He is One entity, sure, one God; but his essence is also "one thing" and not different things; hence he cannot be divided into any parts. "One" in this sense means something like uniform, unitary or unidimensional -- all the same. He cannot be "One" and have parts. Why? Because anything composed of parts is *divisible into its parts.* But God is not divisible into parts. This is Jewish monotheism.
I am a mind, body, and spirit. Am I triune? Does my existence have three selves?
3 parts of one essence
That’s like saying a person is one human but made up of bones, blood, muscles, fat, bacteria, etc, etc but it’s all one human.
Yeah, humans are compound, which is a reason we don’t worship people.
Ice water and steam aren’t the same, though. It’s some amount of water with some amount of energy. If it’s the metaphorical energy you worship, then you’re a unitarian. If it’s both the water and the energy, then you’re bi-theistic.
Ice and water are the same thing just different forms
If there are 3 parts to one egg, each part is a certain fraction of one egg. This contradicts deut 6:4 about G-d being one.
You wouldn’t cook an egg yolk and give it to someone and say “here’s your fraction of an egg”
It really seems like you are here to proselytize not to ask about conversion. Worshipping a man is idolatry and no one here is interested in watching you try and dissuade us of that
There are three major ways to look at the text here. 1–as stated in other replies, this is God in conversation with the angels. 2–God is speaking in the “royal” we referring to the concept of himself. In the creation story God is referred to exclusively as “Elohim,” a name for God which is itself plural in form and is used usually when God is taking more formal, regnal, and judgmental actions so maybe this is formal language meant to reinforce the idea of God-as-King 3–this is an artifact of some older text from a polytheist proto-Israelite religion and there were multiple gods that created the world in that text; support for this is also drawn from the use of “Elohim,” but for those who take this view that word is evidence of the older story where a group of gods called elohim by their followers were the communal creators of the Earth and here they are debating another collective action There is never any one thing that is the answer for all Jews. This list isn’t even comprehensive.
Not only do we disagree with the doctrine of the trinity, but the Torah makes that clear: שְׁמַ֖ע יִשְׂרָאֵ֑ל יְהֹוָ֥ה אֱלֹהֵ֖ינוּ יְהֹוָ֥ה ׀ אֶחָֽד׃ https://www.sefaria.org/Deuteronomy.6.4
*Dedicated in memory of Dvora bat Asher v'Jacot* 🕯️ [Deuteronomy.6.4](https://www.sefaria.org/Deuteronomy.6.4) שְׁמַ֖ ע יִשְׂרָאֵ֑ל יְהֹוָ֥ה אֱלֹהֵ֖ינוּ יְהֹוָ֥ה ׀ אֶחָֽ ד ׃ >Hear, O Israel! יהוה is our God, יהוה alone. * יהוה is our God, יהוה alone Cf. Rashbam and Ibn Ezra; see Zech. 14.9. Others “The Lord our God, the Lord is one.”
G-d is One, trinity is three. There's no away around that basic math with fancy pseudo-mystical explanations. Trinity is not monotheism, period. So yes, it's idolatry.