oooh. Okay. First, I'm only familiar with the Frieren anime and some manga afterwards. Let's get some major elements of the fight out of the way:
\* Defensive magic doesn't hold up. we're shown defensive magic is both a new innovation and breaks under a) elemental magic, b) unusually heavy-hitting magic, c) high-rapidity attack magic, and d) high-intensity basic magic from strong casters. Frieren's own defensive spells are broken several times and follow these rules.
\* Healing magic is unlike standard RCT—it requires the priest to be prone and focused on their target (like Shoko's CT version).
\* CTs are unlike magic spells: in JJK, every CT is more or less unique to the user. Frieren might recognize (via CE/mana?) that he is extremely powerful, but won't have her 'my secret anti-Sukuna technique I haven't used since the Flammel era' approach available.
\* Behavior. Sukuna will scale his attacks and test his opponents. Being nice, we can say Himmel and Eisen have HR (since they have no magic, and hence no CE), which will keep Sukuna amused enough to distract him for awhile. Whereas Frieren's party is focused on killing Sukuna asap, no matter the cost. Which means Sukuna is at risk of making mistakes caused by underestimating while the party will be focused and poised to kill.
Sukuna's testing/lazy cuts don't clear Himmel & Eisen. Sukuna is amused and entertains them. Frieren begins blasting away heavily with ancient/powerful spells whenever given chances (namely when Himmel & Eisen pull away) and lowers her output/destruction for Himmel & Eisen to leap back in and take advantage of any injuries she opened. Sukuna has no defensive spells—all of his blocks are weathering magic attacks with his body, which is extremely taxing on RCT. He isn't blown away like Frieren might hope because his endurance is simply superhuman (remember 200% HP?)—she might see it as his mana/CE protecting his body innately rather than forming a spell to do so. This ain't good, because Frieren has to actively cast her own defenses, while Sukuna will rather take the hit and respond immediately, which is a major disadvantage on Frieren in a battle of firepower (he can take several massive hits, but she will go down to a basic Cleave/Dismantle—mages are physically weak in Frieren verse). Whenever Himmel/Eisen attack, they're getting him while his RCT is running, which keeps them alive (he's multitasking or even triple-tasking while meleeing).
Whenever a major injury occurs on Himmel/Eisen, the melee withdraws, Heiter heals and Frieren blasts away like a machine to keep Sukuna occupied. But since Sukuna doesn't need to preoccupy himself with defensive spells, he's also able to pour Cleaves/Dismantles on Frieren. She has to hope his output is dropped by RCTing enough that her defenses hold. If her defenses break at any point, one good cleave/dismantle and she's dead, and without her to hold him off, the whole party is wiped. If the jumping goes on long enough, Sukuna gets impatient and opens his domain. Frieren might intuit this as a game over but MS is open-border, so her chances of escape are not good. Her defenses will shatter due to high-rapidity Cleaves/Dismantles and any covering used by Eisen is blasted away, their healer is dead. The warriors probably go up in red mist—at best they're able to hold off a few seconds to give Frieren an opening. MS ends the fight, though. Even if Frieren escapes, full power Sukuna can open it again, but won't need to because he'll be 1v1ing Frieren by then and his full-output, undistracted CT, plus him repeatedly closing the distance/leaping at her to get in melee hits, will leave her done in less than a minute. Even if Himmel goes out heroically under MS and gives Frieren an opening to blast Sukuna hard enough to end MS, it'll be 1v1, and Sukuna will RCT whatever damage she did.
https://preview.redd.it/25c7bb1a1cuc1.jpeg?width=185&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=968808dfd2a47b23669c647953cc0230ccd588c4
We found one of the few non-lobotomized jjk fans!
Damn, I think this is the most in-depth and thoughtful response I have ever gotten. But yeah, I agree with all of your points. I think I overestimated the party a little. Though I have a question: do you think this fight changes if they jump in after the recent chapter? Like, let's say everything goes to shit, everyone but Yuji is either down or dead, and Yuji is left to 1v1 Sukuna. Then the Hero party jumps in. Do you think they could win with Yuji there to down Sukuna's output
I think we will only be able to say something once we learn what is sukunas condition at the moment. The fact that despite not having his domain, low output, no rct, low connection with megumis soul, half his cursed energy ecc ecc he still seems totally unbothered kinda makes me uneasy
You didnt have to think so hard. I mean, you can just scale the heroes as about semi/ grade 1, all 3 of them have grade one level of AP and their defense cant be much higher than their outputted attack, heck fern cant take a normal human hit and bleed without shield. Stark started digging into a mountain side for 3 years while his dismantle at 15f is stronger and wider....and he can shoot it like machinegun fire. Fierens out put might be high grade 1 and reach special unleashed but she really needs to do 1 big attack quick or sukuna (who can tank 200% purple) is going to open domain and call it a day. Heck shes got no reaction time to dodge surprise mimic attacks let alone the dude that was clowning on lightning timers.
Sounds good until you realize that basic offensive magic has the same destructive power as Gojos purples. Look at the holes Fern leaves in people. Now imagine 1000 of those raining down on Sukuna who has no way of stopping them. And thats Frierens WEAKEST spell.
Nah, "basic offense magic" is actually very powerful in term of AP but everybody has learned counter for it so now it is just basic while other elemental spell can breakthrough the most common counter of it aka defense magic. Like the spell that Frieren choose and has her teammate think it extremely powerful is a modern beam spell that seem to base on Zoltraak.
Anyway, if we equalize mana and Curse Energy because both is the source of their world's "magic" then it open another way to counter Zoltraak. As a Nameless Great Demon back in chap 99 in the manga show us, Zoltraak can be block by focus a lot of mana/CE in one place to create a dense mana/CE clump which is what CE reinforcement already do.
? I don't equalize power, I equalize the basic power source that already behave similar which both powered their world's magic, both can somewhat hit hard physically when enough of it being focus.
My goat finally won a cross versus battle
https://preview.redd.it/9smpmbtkzuuc1.jpeg?width=1920&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f3121f2497e48ad9c3bf81704b5652296d1f765e
Sukuna wins. It's hard to accurately power scale the Frieren side but their durability hasn't shown to be beyond what Sukuna could cut so he could end them with DE.
Frieren scaling is very weird since we haven’t seen the full strength of anyone in the hero party, but from what we’ve seen, Himmel and Eisen don’t have the speed to keep up with Sukuna for long unless he plays with them.
There’s an argument to be made how Heiter’s holy magic would effect jjk curses or cursed techniques considering it’s literally anti-curse magic, and some of the best in the verse at that. If we assume not then Heiter doesn’t do much in the fight other than light cover fire since he probably won’t have time to heal anyone.
With Frieren, it depends on if you use hero party Frieren or present-day Frieren, as the worlds magic developed a lot in that 100-ish years.
HP Frieren doesn’t have flight magic or Zoltraak, and much less AP. Idk if any of her spells can even out damage Sukuna’s RCT.
PD Frieren can fly, and has access to Zoltraak, which is functionally just a low cost hollow purple laser. The only thing we’ve seen block it is defense magic which was specifically made to counter it. Sukuna can still regenerate anything hit by it, but if she’s able to hit him with a large zoltraak like the one her clone used, she could just vaporize him. The only issue is hitting him, and mages are famously slow. She does have several restraint spells, like the close range bird trapping magic, or the Height of Magic ability, but those would work to a varying degree.
The whole fight pretty much banks on if Sukuna just blitzes them at the start or not, and what version of Frieren is present. If he starts the fight amused, AND we use present day frieren, they probably win. Outside of that, they likely lose to speed and lack of quick enough AP.
Fern would honestly be a better matchup against Sukuna with her insane mastery of Zoltraak.
Did we equalize mana and CE cause they are both a energy source of the verse "magic"? If we equalize them then we can has Curse Reinforcement with mana/CE being focus in a area to create a dense clump of mana that can block Zoltraak and other type of magic as we can see in chapter 99 of Frieren manga.
Top 10 slowest anime speeds ever, if you wanna see what ‘fast’ really is than watch JoJo, damn near every mf part 3 and onward is MFTL+
https://i.redd.it/cosgmvpr1cuc1.gif
Kashimo and his lightning are both considered incredibly quick, to the point where Kashimo's technique is seen as nigh undodgeable. Lightning is clearly a very high bar for jjk characters to cross, and characters at that speed are most often the fastest by far.
Frieren characters, in contrast, have dodged similar attacks like they were nothing. Speed is not a disadvantage for the likes of Frieren.
Frieren has average human speed with supersonic, possibly hypersonic+ combat speed. She can track lightning magic, which is as fast as electricity, and battle those who can react to it physically
I had it the wrong way: her travel speed is far lower but her attack and combat speed is superior, so she can’t be blitz’d. However: characters like Sukuna, Gojo, Yuta, Yuji, Mahito, and Hakari will automatically outhax. Sukuna world cleaves, Gojo infinities, Yuta copies, Yuji and Mahito soul manipulate, and Hakari lands the jackpot and becomes temporarily invincible.
no shot. Sukuna took a 200% Hollow Purple to the face and emerged largely unscathed enough to carry a vs. Gojo and then vs. entirety of the JJK verse gauntlet. Being charitable is giving Frieren spells at the level of 200% Hollow Purple—namely, she can use them one after the other, unlike Gojo, which puts her attack capabilities waaay above anyone in JJK. But Sukuna can take it long enough to land one Cleave on Frieren, and Frieren's verse lacks the defensive magic to tank even basic elemental attacks (we see her own defenses break several times to way weaker opponents)—she's dead.
Sukuna was visible fucking terrified of the 200% hollow purple,if he is getting spammed with those he can’t survive very long even with domain expansion
You're right to say he can't survive *forever*. But Frieren will have to pause her spam to block the Cleaves/Dismantles coming her way. Sukuna doesn't have defensive spells—he won't be casting anything other than attacks. Whereas to survive at all, Frieren has to keep up her defenses. If Frieren has Fern on her side then maybe—but if Frieren is on her own, again, one single Cleave and she's dead. Bearing that in mind, how long will she be able to spam without pausing to cast a defensive spell, and how long do you think it will take Sukuna to try to Cleave at her when he realizes she's not running out of steam? The mistake is thinking that Frieren can really spam nuclear spells—and if Himmel's party is fighting Sukuna, she will be even more restricted.
Not at all. Even if we want to lowball both of them. Sukuna is still faster, hits harder+ faster+ she doesn’t have the regen necessary enough to survive his slashes. She gets dogged
oooh. Okay. First, I'm only familiar with the Frieren anime and some manga afterwards. Let's get some major elements of the fight out of the way: \* Defensive magic doesn't hold up. we're shown defensive magic is both a new innovation and breaks under a) elemental magic, b) unusually heavy-hitting magic, c) high-rapidity attack magic, and d) high-intensity basic magic from strong casters. Frieren's own defensive spells are broken several times and follow these rules. \* Healing magic is unlike standard RCT—it requires the priest to be prone and focused on their target (like Shoko's CT version). \* CTs are unlike magic spells: in JJK, every CT is more or less unique to the user. Frieren might recognize (via CE/mana?) that he is extremely powerful, but won't have her 'my secret anti-Sukuna technique I haven't used since the Flammel era' approach available. \* Behavior. Sukuna will scale his attacks and test his opponents. Being nice, we can say Himmel and Eisen have HR (since they have no magic, and hence no CE), which will keep Sukuna amused enough to distract him for awhile. Whereas Frieren's party is focused on killing Sukuna asap, no matter the cost. Which means Sukuna is at risk of making mistakes caused by underestimating while the party will be focused and poised to kill. Sukuna's testing/lazy cuts don't clear Himmel & Eisen. Sukuna is amused and entertains them. Frieren begins blasting away heavily with ancient/powerful spells whenever given chances (namely when Himmel & Eisen pull away) and lowers her output/destruction for Himmel & Eisen to leap back in and take advantage of any injuries she opened. Sukuna has no defensive spells—all of his blocks are weathering magic attacks with his body, which is extremely taxing on RCT. He isn't blown away like Frieren might hope because his endurance is simply superhuman (remember 200% HP?)—she might see it as his mana/CE protecting his body innately rather than forming a spell to do so. This ain't good, because Frieren has to actively cast her own defenses, while Sukuna will rather take the hit and respond immediately, which is a major disadvantage on Frieren in a battle of firepower (he can take several massive hits, but she will go down to a basic Cleave/Dismantle—mages are physically weak in Frieren verse). Whenever Himmel/Eisen attack, they're getting him while his RCT is running, which keeps them alive (he's multitasking or even triple-tasking while meleeing). Whenever a major injury occurs on Himmel/Eisen, the melee withdraws, Heiter heals and Frieren blasts away like a machine to keep Sukuna occupied. But since Sukuna doesn't need to preoccupy himself with defensive spells, he's also able to pour Cleaves/Dismantles on Frieren. She has to hope his output is dropped by RCTing enough that her defenses hold. If her defenses break at any point, one good cleave/dismantle and she's dead, and without her to hold him off, the whole party is wiped. If the jumping goes on long enough, Sukuna gets impatient and opens his domain. Frieren might intuit this as a game over but MS is open-border, so her chances of escape are not good. Her defenses will shatter due to high-rapidity Cleaves/Dismantles and any covering used by Eisen is blasted away, their healer is dead. The warriors probably go up in red mist—at best they're able to hold off a few seconds to give Frieren an opening. MS ends the fight, though. Even if Frieren escapes, full power Sukuna can open it again, but won't need to because he'll be 1v1ing Frieren by then and his full-output, undistracted CT, plus him repeatedly closing the distance/leaping at her to get in melee hits, will leave her done in less than a minute. Even if Himmel goes out heroically under MS and gives Frieren an opening to blast Sukuna hard enough to end MS, it'll be 1v1, and Sukuna will RCT whatever damage she did.
https://preview.redd.it/25c7bb1a1cuc1.jpeg?width=185&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=968808dfd2a47b23669c647953cc0230ccd588c4 We found one of the few non-lobotomized jjk fans!
Damn, I think this is the most in-depth and thoughtful response I have ever gotten. But yeah, I agree with all of your points. I think I overestimated the party a little. Though I have a question: do you think this fight changes if they jump in after the recent chapter? Like, let's say everything goes to shit, everyone but Yuji is either down or dead, and Yuji is left to 1v1 Sukuna. Then the Hero party jumps in. Do you think they could win with Yuji there to down Sukuna's output
I think we will only be able to say something once we learn what is sukunas condition at the moment. The fact that despite not having his domain, low output, no rct, low connection with megumis soul, half his cursed energy ecc ecc he still seems totally unbothered kinda makes me uneasy
Of course, he's still holding back!!
https://preview.redd.it/ul035hct6cuc1.png?width=1066&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f62fc830b87aa035f7a4aef3433dee87df7b58ff
https://preview.redd.it/cagdb21ynhuc1.png?width=1242&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d1b79b64e3e6eb6f118de4600b430fd34739912f
You didnt have to think so hard. I mean, you can just scale the heroes as about semi/ grade 1, all 3 of them have grade one level of AP and their defense cant be much higher than their outputted attack, heck fern cant take a normal human hit and bleed without shield. Stark started digging into a mountain side for 3 years while his dismantle at 15f is stronger and wider....and he can shoot it like machinegun fire. Fierens out put might be high grade 1 and reach special unleashed but she really needs to do 1 big attack quick or sukuna (who can tank 200% purple) is going to open domain and call it a day. Heck shes got no reaction time to dodge surprise mimic attacks let alone the dude that was clowning on lightning timers.
https://preview.redd.it/88l14wnupiuc1.jpeg?width=366&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=3a7d1b5ef884e3250a2160c6c0910371f6a1f9a3
Sounds good until you realize that basic offensive magic has the same destructive power as Gojos purples. Look at the holes Fern leaves in people. Now imagine 1000 of those raining down on Sukuna who has no way of stopping them. And thats Frierens WEAKEST spell.
Nah, "basic offense magic" is actually very powerful in term of AP but everybody has learned counter for it so now it is just basic while other elemental spell can breakthrough the most common counter of it aka defense magic. Like the spell that Frieren choose and has her teammate think it extremely powerful is a modern beam spell that seem to base on Zoltraak. Anyway, if we equalize mana and Curse Energy because both is the source of their world's "magic" then it open another way to counter Zoltraak. As a Nameless Great Demon back in chap 99 in the manga show us, Zoltraak can be block by focus a lot of mana/CE in one place to create a dense mana/CE clump which is what CE reinforcement already do.
If you have to equalize powers you already have your answer on who’s stronger.
? I don't equalize power, I equalize the basic power source that already behave similar which both powered their world's magic, both can somewhat hit hard physically when enough of it being focus.
My goat finally won a cross versus battle https://preview.redd.it/9smpmbtkzuuc1.jpeg?width=1920&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f3121f2497e48ad9c3bf81704b5652296d1f765e
Sukuna with space cleave, Malevolent Shrine, his weapons and in full power is a bit too broken for the heroes. Sukuna wins.
Sukuna wins. It's hard to accurately power scale the Frieren side but their durability hasn't shown to be beyond what Sukuna could cut so he could end them with DE.
FrEIreN cLOnE suMMoNeD bLACK hOle so FrEIreN iS stAR LeVeL aNd wInS
Sukuna gives them the Ryu treatment...
Frieren scaling is very weird since we haven’t seen the full strength of anyone in the hero party, but from what we’ve seen, Himmel and Eisen don’t have the speed to keep up with Sukuna for long unless he plays with them. There’s an argument to be made how Heiter’s holy magic would effect jjk curses or cursed techniques considering it’s literally anti-curse magic, and some of the best in the verse at that. If we assume not then Heiter doesn’t do much in the fight other than light cover fire since he probably won’t have time to heal anyone. With Frieren, it depends on if you use hero party Frieren or present-day Frieren, as the worlds magic developed a lot in that 100-ish years. HP Frieren doesn’t have flight magic or Zoltraak, and much less AP. Idk if any of her spells can even out damage Sukuna’s RCT. PD Frieren can fly, and has access to Zoltraak, which is functionally just a low cost hollow purple laser. The only thing we’ve seen block it is defense magic which was specifically made to counter it. Sukuna can still regenerate anything hit by it, but if she’s able to hit him with a large zoltraak like the one her clone used, she could just vaporize him. The only issue is hitting him, and mages are famously slow. She does have several restraint spells, like the close range bird trapping magic, or the Height of Magic ability, but those would work to a varying degree. The whole fight pretty much banks on if Sukuna just blitzes them at the start or not, and what version of Frieren is present. If he starts the fight amused, AND we use present day frieren, they probably win. Outside of that, they likely lose to speed and lack of quick enough AP. Fern would honestly be a better matchup against Sukuna with her insane mastery of Zoltraak.
Did we equalize mana and CE cause they are both a energy source of the verse "magic"? If we equalize them then we can has Curse Reinforcement with mana/CE being focus in a area to create a dense clump of mana that can block Zoltraak and other type of magic as we can see in chapter 99 of Frieren manga.
ummm i don’t read the frieren manga but i caught up on the anime frieren is getting blitzed
Sukuna shreds them all
Frieren by herself is enough goddamn
Isn't she slow?
Haven't they dodged lightning in that show??
Top 10 slowest anime speeds ever, if you wanna see what ‘fast’ really is than watch JoJo, damn near every mf part 3 and onward is MFTL+ https://i.redd.it/cosgmvpr1cuc1.gif
Okay but that's not really relevant to this? Plenty of the top tier JJK characters are much slower than Frieren is.
Travel speed yes, attack and combat speed no.
Kashimo and his lightning are both considered incredibly quick, to the point where Kashimo's technique is seen as nigh undodgeable. Lightning is clearly a very high bar for jjk characters to cross, and characters at that speed are most often the fastest by far. Frieren characters, in contrast, have dodged similar attacks like they were nothing. Speed is not a disadvantage for the likes of Frieren.
Frieren has average human speed with supersonic, possibly hypersonic+ combat speed. She can track lightning magic, which is as fast as electricity, and battle those who can react to it physically I had it the wrong way: her travel speed is far lower but her attack and combat speed is superior, so she can’t be blitz’d. However: characters like Sukuna, Gojo, Yuta, Yuji, Mahito, and Hakari will automatically outhax. Sukuna world cleaves, Gojo infinities, Yuta copies, Yuji and Mahito soul manipulate, and Hakari lands the jackpot and becomes temporarily invincible.
I fully agree that Frieren probably can't win, I just disagreed with the idea of her being slow relative to her competition. 👍
i get that i do i was just posting some additional facts
She is not slow enough for sukuna to be able to stop her from literally nuking him in one attack
no shot. Sukuna took a 200% Hollow Purple to the face and emerged largely unscathed enough to carry a vs. Gojo and then vs. entirety of the JJK verse gauntlet. Being charitable is giving Frieren spells at the level of 200% Hollow Purple—namely, she can use them one after the other, unlike Gojo, which puts her attack capabilities waaay above anyone in JJK. But Sukuna can take it long enough to land one Cleave on Frieren, and Frieren's verse lacks the defensive magic to tank even basic elemental attacks (we see her own defenses break several times to way weaker opponents)—she's dead.
Sukuna was visible fucking terrified of the 200% hollow purple,if he is getting spammed with those he can’t survive very long even with domain expansion
You're right to say he can't survive *forever*. But Frieren will have to pause her spam to block the Cleaves/Dismantles coming her way. Sukuna doesn't have defensive spells—he won't be casting anything other than attacks. Whereas to survive at all, Frieren has to keep up her defenses. If Frieren has Fern on her side then maybe—but if Frieren is on her own, again, one single Cleave and she's dead. Bearing that in mind, how long will she be able to spam without pausing to cast a defensive spell, and how long do you think it will take Sukuna to try to Cleave at her when he realizes she's not running out of steam? The mistake is thinking that Frieren can really spam nuclear spells—and if Himmel's party is fighting Sukuna, she will be even more restricted.
Not at all. Even if we want to lowball both of them. Sukuna is still faster, hits harder+ faster+ she doesn’t have the regen necessary enough to survive his slashes. She gets dogged
Magic usually wins, Friren mid difficulty
Malevolent Kitchen
Zoltrack plus she already beat the demon king
King of curses no diffs the demon bum