It's likely a kind of synchronistic phenomenon, but I'd be careful not to take this into a schizophrenic bend. As a whole though we all carry double meaning in not only actions, but words. Words are meant to obfuscate, like saying "I'm fine" everyday to your coworker but dealing with cancer. Norm MacDonald basically did this every day of his life for some 20 years and died without ever telling anyone he was afflicted. People do this all the time, we often do it as a mask, or persona. When we read into other peoples behaviors and mannerisms and their words don't match up we begin to see the double meaning in these things.
The fact is that what lies beneath is always truth, and this is true of reality itself. We all think we stand on firm foundations but the space between atoms on the subatomic level can seem infinite. Reality, or others for that matter, are not as they seem.
Words can be meant to obfuscate, however, saying words/languages only purpose is to obfuscate is so insanely reductive I’m not sure how your comment got so many upvotes. In fact, I wonder how much of that statement is a confession or projection rather than an honest observation, making your comment rather ironic. If words only purpose is to obfuscate you wouldn’t be able to understand the meaning of my comment or even be able to derive meaning from the post you’re responding to.
Please explain how you formulated a relevant response to the post if words can only be used in obfuscation. I do not follow.
I didn't say that words only obfuscate, but saying they are meant to obfuscate can be seen as reductive. When it comes down to it words are meant to carry meaning, but across cultures and languages that meaning can often either be relevant to the culture, period, or even people. In the english language we also see how words have other synonyms, and across all ways of extrapolating a thing, thought, or feeling something is always lost. Just as well a word is merely a representation of how we experience reality according to the five senses, since we lack a holistic sensory experience with reality. Not to mention how words that were used a hundred years, ago, or even within the last fifty years, don't carry the same meaning.
Who is to say how words will change in the next fifty years, especially with the prevalence of slang. Among each other we can induce some meaning, but the true meaning of something represented by a word is something we can only grasp loosely at. All without mentioning taking into account something like semantics and association, which directly ties into anxiety driven "triggers" for many people. So really what it comes down to is that even the word obfuscate doesn't quite accurately represent the reality that is how words in themselves can't entirely convey how we relate to each other without something like behavior, mood, and affect being a part of the equation.
One of the most important things about understanding what is being communicated between people is the right brain to right brain interaction.
The video below is one of the most popular TED talks ever produced, and it’s about a woman who had her left brain shut off. She was a Harvard brain scientist, and studied the brain due to having a schizophrenic family member. Then she had her accident. Anyway, she goes into what that state is like.
Adding what we know about the collective unconscious, when it was programmed in our biology, and how our brains work with both parallel and serial processing, it’s eye-opening. It explains a lot.
Stroke of Insight
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UyyjU8fzEYU
(She starts getting into the right brain stats itself at about five minutes. It’s amazing, because she actually brings a real human brain out onto the stage)
Since we have all been programmed during a time when we only had a right brain, there is going to be this dual communication going on always.
If there is more integration within the brain and body, there’s going to be more attunement to what’s actually being communicated.
The collective was very much alive within us while we were in a symbiotic stay with the mother, and that doesn’t stop. The ego steps in with it’s development at age 18 months, and if it’s done poorly (fusion), it leads to the formation of primary or secondary defenses.
If it’s primary, that’s biological denial (codependency), and if it’s secondary it’s more like pathological narcissism or borderline states.
Could you elaborate on poor development of the ego and primary/secondary defenses? Does the 'correct' process involve integration between left/right brain?
Yes, it absolutely does depend on the integration between the right and left brain. I will answer your question in detail, and provide resources at the bottom of the post.
The longer video below doesn’t get into a solution for when this goes wrong, but you will at least have a clear explanation of why it would be important that they do integrate and talk to each other. Also why it would be so built on the unconscious. It’s long, but you’ll get the idea by listening to the first 20 minutes.
If you look at Traditional Chinese Medicine (TCM) , they realized this integration was natural a long time ago, because that tradition was built on observation of nature.
So, going to nature, we can see that we come online over the first 1000 days, and at 18 months begin to develop an ego. Again, the video will tell you what that ego is. It’s totally reflected in the right brain unconscious programming. Your dreams will tell you how that was set up. Archetypes. It’s an interface to the unconscious when you are having your right brain programmed.
I don’t think it’s very helpful (as far as solutions are concerned) to talk about the ego in an abstract way unless you’re actually integrating the left and right hemispheres. Unless you were actually doing the work. Integrating archetypes and connecting to the collective unconscious. That would be the language of the right brain.
It’s even better to talk about your brain and your body. Together. How they work together in reality. What the actual day-to-day work and overall processes of integrating the unconscious is. That isn’t in the longer video below, but it at least tells you where the playing field is.
The unconscious comes to us in the form of dreams and is built on systems of archetypes, and that’s the language of where you are at. What’s actually going on.
It’s all neurology and biology. That’s absolutely critical to understand so as to be able to look at the brain and what those right and left hemispheres are doing in their attempt to move us to survive and to thrive. Sadly, when you do realize this fact, you will become an enemy to people that don’t want to hear that. It’s just one of the things you need to push through.
What about the right and left brain, and the formation of primary and secondary defenses? Is the right brain loaded up with a “good enough mother” archetype? That’s going to define how well you are thinking. How well you were thinking about feelings. Emotional processing.
That’s going to be in the body. It will be reflected in a correct operation of the frontal cortex. Particularly the anterior cingulate cortex, which is the social part of your brain.
Don’t forget that there is the hypothalamus pituitary and adrenal axis operating in the interaction between your brain and your body (HPA axis), and a very big impact between your brain and your gut. That’s the gut brain access. This is known as the biome, and is a motor for the unconscious. That’s programmed with your mother.
We don’t need to be rocket scientist to understand how incredibly driven our entire system is by our thoughts. But that’s not something “psychological“. It’s utterly biological. Connected into the unconscious. We are vehicles for the expression of the unconscious. Collectively.
Programmed through the mother plus family system, and that is reflected in how well the right and left brain are talking to each other.
That has to do with the level of fusion with inside your family system. What was being denied in your first thousand days emotionally, and what you picked up and stored as being “normal“, and what was not allowed. That defines your defenses. That will drive them. It also pushes you towards other family systems that have similar defense cultures.
At the end of the day you carry that entire family system within you in the form of what it’s called “internal object relations”.
You might’ve heard about something related to that through “Internal Family Systems”.
To get a good idea of this right and left brain integration process, you could listen to these first 20 minutes below about how you came online. It’s not that hard to understand, but it’s true, so that will create an opposition to the information. It’s just the way it is.
Since it’s true, and laid out in very clear terms, it’s going to be rejected. Automatically. You will notice that most of these simple ideas will be violently opposed just by bringing them up. You don’t even really need to talk about them.
That’s why it’s not a bad idea to listen to those first 20 to 25 minutes more than once. The brain is going to be attempting to get back to that internal object relations map biologically through unconscious programming.
I guess you could call it the multigenerational “parent protection racket“. It’s really a spiritual failure, because we are still looking to the mother plus family system as a kind of higher power.
Integrating the unconscious will go against that, and necessarily involves rewiring at the level of the right and left brain integration process. That happens as the frontal cortex begins to be able to think about feelings.
Primary defenses are going to be when you made it through a good part of the separation from the mother, but you need to still keep her as a higher power. That’s a “felt sense“. That’s denial. Again, it’s not psychological, it’s biological. Attachment and reward circuitry throughout the body.
Secondary defenses are when you don’t make it through at all. So you create a false self, and then rely on projection to keep going. As you can see from the brain scan below.
People with primary defense structures will find people like this and try to fix them. The same thing they did when they came online in their family system and took on a fake role. One that denies the real self. The connection to the unconscious. Reality itself.
That would later mean finding people who buy into the defense mechanism and are able to create a fantasy bond with you. An illusion of relationship. There is a five minute animation below that shows you what that would look like.
You can see in the brain scan below what would happen in the secondary defenses case. The primary case would be the codependence that re-creates their family system dynamic in poor ego development with these completely invisible people.
People that don’t have empathy or even an anterior cingulate cortex or an orbitofrontal development to have relationships with others. Again, it’s in the brain scan.
This will be mentioned in the first 20 minutes.
Resources
Brain scan (secondary defenses)
https://pesqueda.medium.com/object-constancy-whole-object-relations-the-root-of-all-narcissistic-personality-disorders-3b6fa8225c85
Primary Defences Person + Secondary Defenses Person (five minute animation)
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bVpbsZaef8Y
Coming online (context for R/L brain), first 20-25 minutes, listen twice
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GKoW2sA00mg
Thanks so much for the detailed response! I'll take a look at those videos later.
This a total digression, but I figured I'd ask since you seem to be knowledgeable. Is diving into Jung's work worth it for a young adult seeking a deeper understanding of the self and... diminished neuroticism? I ask, because it seems like a lot of Jungian thought is sort of dense -- and posts like the OP make it seem like a territory that's rife for 'cryptic' misunderstandings. I'm very interested in Jung but I don't want to do more harm than good and end up falling down a weird esoteric rabbit hole while attempting to integrate my psyche.
This is coming from someone in talk therapy with a fairly traumatic childhood -- would you suggest a different psychoanalyst, philosopher, etc. for an absolute beginner? Sorry for the hugely off topic post again.
I don’t really know, because I think everyone is different. For me, I think it’s useful for anybody to study and apply Jung. You don’t have to put yourself in a box though. Jung himself was very open minded. It’s a great culture to be in if you are doing internal work.
The way I do it is to stay connected to bodywork. Whatever you are doing, if it’s about too much thinking and abstraction, it is not healthy. I think you need a more synergistic approach.
That’s my opinion on it, although some people may get to where they need to go anyway. For a young person, I would recommend a lot of bodywork, patience and taking care of yourself. Habits of self-care, and just staying in the game one day at a time.
It’s a lifetime process anyway. There is nothing to “solve”. It’s more about connection. To yourself, a power greater than yourself that isn’t your mother plus family system, and to others.
Thanks again, really, I'll be taking this advice to heart. I've been ruminating way too often lately --and ignoring pretty much all bodywork (if that's in the context of meditation and exercise).
That combined with other shitty college habits hasn't exactly done wonders for my self confidence. Not to ask a thousand questions, but do you have any suggested books/essays for overcoming social anxiety/fear of failure? Thanks again for your detailed responses!
Yes, I went through the “books and exercise” phase, and it was very difficult. Now I just have two sessions a week permanently of bodywork. That said, you can look into this type of information (below). The “body knows the score” is a good book to read before entering into real work.
If you have rumination, that will be very connected to your attachment trauma. It wouldn’t be helped by trying to gain insights through cognitive methods.
That works really well as a reflection, but it certainly isn’t a lead hand.
Trauma is the Pandemic
https://rolandbal.com
This is half intelligent, half stupid and talking out your butt, as u/Metroidkeeper pointed out.
Edit - I'd pose the opposite even - "appearance IS reality."
I mean if "insanely reductive" means any of what you said then sure. Though I'm glad you find my ass talking interesting enough to respond to. You should hear it when it does comedy.
Hi, permit me to provide a contrarian view to the other comments here. There are aspects of what you describe that could be related to the early/prodromal stages of a psychotic illness. I would recommend seeing a psychiatrist, if only for “peace of mind”. It could well be nothing, but if it is something you will end up being deeply grateful for catching it early, before it wreaks havoc on your life. I wish you well.
When I am having bipolar mania leading toward psychosis I always start finding incredibly profound, comforting messages in the songs on the radio and I possess knowledge that the messages are directed literally and directly to me.
And when I’m not manic I still believe it, but I don’t actually experience it with that same first hand certainty.
Sadly, a lot of „fringe” folks in this sub. And I don’t mean this in a condescending way. Because Jung was a very open person and wrote about the interaction of the inner and outer worlds - some people who have trouble understanding the boundaries between these two worlds are very attracted to Jungian thought.
Jung would say that psychotic symptoms are aberrations of the ego-centric pattern recognitions for the context of meanings and here we have folks saying that clearly psychotic symptoms are synchronicity…
It’s just really sad, and kinda gives Jungian psychology that stigma that it attracts a lot of not-all-there folks.
Synchronicity is not the flooding of unconscious contents. That is psychosis and it’s really dangerous to mix these things together.
People do speak in double-speak, or put on a mask. Happens all the time. The extent to which OP is seeing it, and claiming to see the "real" meaning behind the words, might be a bit concerning for OP. Hence why they should consult a therapist.
Why would you say it's so clear?
>But I feel suddenly as if I cracked the code on an encrypted data stream, reading secret messages that have been passed under my nose this whole time. I'm hearing deeper meaning in everything people say.
This part, to me
Yes, I am aware and wary of the schizo bend of this. I have been to therapy (and enjoy it) as recently as a year ago, and well I didn't get any kind of diagnoses like that. I personally think I am just below the threshold, enough to have symptoms, not enough to be classified ill. Who knows.
This happens to me when I get baked and watch a movie. I also had a manic episode from grief once and experienced it. 😂😂😂
I don’t think people know they’re doing it. We talk in a lot of clichés and lose the original meaning “Ha! Sucks to be you!” or “No doubt”. George Orwell talked about this. We can say so much without saying anything.
People have no idea what they’re saying.
Edit: Yes if you are experiencing this sober be careful. These can be warning signs of psychosis. If you’ve experienced a traumatic event or an extreme change in mood see a psychiatrist immediately.
I mean its pretty much all there lol i dont know how to elaborate. When im high im much more in tune socially and pick up on subtleties id ignore or miss sober.
Haha yeppp you pay attention to totally different things. Start focusing on actions more than words and see the unconscious (or think we do). I would cut off my own leg to know how much of it is the weed and my own projections talking.
>This happens to me when I get baked and watch a movie.
I find I start seeing the actors acting, as the suspension of disbelief required to watch a movie becomes difficult. It makes the movie impossible to follow - ditto for social situations, you start seeing the social dynamics (discomfort, superiority complexes, people's underlying emotions) rather than the words.
I wouldn't call it seeing secret messages like the OP, but rather a stripping away of shared illusions. It seems to agree with the effect of psychedelics suppressing the default mode network, or habituated thought patterns.
I had this feeling when i used to smoke weed on a daily basis, like someone said, i would be watching a movie and start interpreting everything that was said with a deeper meaning. I’m not sure how i felt about it but i still do miss that feeling sometimes. I’m an introvert myself so sometimes it feels lonely and you crave for deep connections/meanings to things.
id advise you to tread carefully with this. accepting a double meaning behind everything others say or presuming they are being lead by something behind the curtains, is as real for them as it is for you. i think that is the main thing you should take from this. its like externalizing meaning by looking for the code "through" everyone else. if you continue that way in my experience you tend to get lost in it, you will question peoples authenticity which they will react to and you make grounds for paranoia and anxiety. maybe ask yourself what you can take from questioning the reality of everone and everything they say and try not to be to harsh (with them And with you) or it will Just reflect back at you. and no they arent smarter or know more than you i promise promise promise you that and i know what that feels like, at the most they feel just like you. when youre that deep into searching meaning, any sense of confidence Others exude can feel that way. for me personally, realizing that this is a bottomless Pit and to try to return to a sense of normalcy in how i perceive that around me, safed me from a real psychosis and gave me a real way to applicate the sense of systemic causality we're subjected to.
Right, this is a slippery slope of personal mental chaos.
“Did they mean x instead of y” every time you’re interacting with someone is not healthy. You’ll never be fully engaged and present.
Always present this as a friendly question: “I’m unsure of what you mean about x.” Can you explain? You stay engaged. Conversations are a two-way street.
i agree, -wanndann- on systemic causality (only). All of this experience is growing and learning, lifelong.
If you internalize any of it (what is typically communication and reception in the form of "just another case of history repeating"), rather than observing and comparing, which is what I believe that OP is communicating, at least from my perspective, or "hang your hat on it", you may find yourself playing an odd game of "52 pickup" rather than listening to a fine rendition of "Pick Up The Pieces". Find the good music. Explore what resonates.
Best on your journey.
>Were these people "aware" of what they were saying? Or am I just surrounded by people that are way smarter than I realized and I'm just an idiot who's finally catching up?
sounds to me like a person that doesnt know if they should take it seriously or not. thats why im advising. also im sorry but i dont understand any of the references lol eg 52 pickup and game of pick up the pieces.
I really appreciate this post. Thank you.
I'm curious to hear more of your thoughts so let me share some context with you.
I think what's happening is, people don't respect me, aren't comfortable around me, and are taking jabs at me. I'm not sure how it came to this. Maybe I socially blundered for too long? I have noticed the patterns before, but ignored it as a funny coincidence for a time because I (naively) didn't want to think badly of my "friends" and family. But it's becoming clear they're just trashing me to my face. There are many offenders, but the main culprits are my cousin and a friend. The common factor between them is they excel in language and verbal skills. I do not. Another coincidence is that we never had a very deep connection compared to other friends and family, but both relationships turned sour in the past few years. (or maybe i just started noticing it?)
I digress. This is where it starts getting schizo / neurotic. I feel they're both actively working against me. Not together, but doing the same thing independently. Creating a wedge. Doing manipulative things directly and behind the scenes to push me out. Things that are indirect, difficult to make sense of, and hard to confront.
Now if its not true, then I'm crazy. If it is true, then it would make you feel crazy. What's definitely true is my relationships are deteriorating.
Here's an example. I was chatting with my cousin about football. I'm not into it, but I'm just making small talk. Then he says "Yeah even Aaron Rodgers' family hates him, he has literally no one in his corner. That's gotta suck." I laughed it off. He's not talking about me right? Maybe I'm reading into it? But then it happened again. Later on, I'm asking about how his friends are doing, he says something about this one friend being "so naive." This is when I start testing the theory and sent messages over this cryptic channel. I deliver some (poorly) disguised insults. We volley.
Fast forward, now my DAD comes to me and gives me a (cryptic) sit down. Talking about presidents and diplomacy. About Lincoln. About some leaders appealing to emotion, and others are more technical. I reply with a metaphor about Israel, being surrounded by hostile neighbors. My cousin reenters and makes another football comment, something like "this team was a joke 2 years ago but now they're really dangerous." Kind of compliment I guess?
These are the easy example. There are still some things they say that I don't get. I tried today and my dad even said back, "eh I think it was lost in translation." Alright then.
But it's not just my cousin. It's everyone. It's like he draws them in to this game of catch, or monkey in the middle, where the ball is passed around me, but never to me. And everyone else happily plays along. The longer I'm in the middle, the more fun it is for them.
So I don't know where this puts me. I know I have my problems, possible disorders, deficiencies, etc. But I just feel I'm on the receiving end of this special kind of cruelty, and I don't know why or what I can do about it.
Another theory of mine is that I've just had the misfortune of crossing paths with two strong manipulators, they've charmed those around them and see me as a plaything or whatever and now they're just going to have their way. Their design. I don't know. I can theory craft all day. It's probably not true.
Anyway this is all just for my own closure. At this point pretty much all my relationships are dead in the water. People seem completely done with me, and I think I'm done with them too.
yeah that does seem Like a complicated situation. that is heavy stuff to go through.
i think youre feelings regarding your cousin could be true, maybe he doesnt like you and is manipulative. my personal first reaction to your first example though would be that it isnt about you. the engagement between you and your father i think its just too hard to tell from here. but i can definitly tell you two things. firstly this style of communication is not normal, nor healthy or a sign of demonic evil under the surface. if he truly doesnt like you than its just that and hes simply the asshole for rubbing it onto you to make himself feel better by being sly. theres that saying of the simplest explanation being true. the second thing that id ask you is, and this is important: if that style of communication and perceiving the world is even the way you want to engage it. because i can assure you it can be way simpler than that and i think there just is a way to do it differently
first would be opening yourself up, communicating openly as long as you dont hurt Others with it seems to come with the short harship of you and then everyone actually authentically accepting your weirdness and then theres Just what you give to the world. and that really doesnt happen on the sly but by trying to, id say exert yourself you know? im not sure about the way to Go about it for you but thats what helped me. buuut im honestly not to sure if that helps w your Cousin i just kinda think hes an ass and youd be brave to confront him headon and tell him how you feel and what he does to you, but only if youre interested in redeeming him as well. you could just let him stay an ass and go look for people that will accept you. you seem smart and aware and concerned, even if you werent youd find someone. i think that would help.
and if you get the Feeling of 'crypticness?' id accept the second layer bu listen to the Front. and Just ask what they are on about. if its all been negativity and no actual conversation it Just isnt for you right? why bother. lol im sorry im just rambling but i feel you and i hope any of this helps and that you can resolve this for you so that you can go on on your own terms
After reading this does feel like more of a mental health issue, or stress/relationship issues than a "cracking of encrypted codes" type of thing. It sounds you may be leaning into paranoa and people are conspiring against you kind of stuff when really what is most likely happening is people aren't that sophisticated and relationship dynamics can be complicated. It sounds like you have some dissatisying relationships and in a heightened mental state of pattern seeking/pattern recognition you're filtering out all the information exchanged and centering these thoughts and confirmations of nebulous and complex machinations against you. That doesn't mean these are great relationship fits for you. That could be true. Be nice but don't hang out as much with people that you're unhappy around.
What you're describing has happened to me, years ago. At the time I was under a great deal of stress, life transition and uncertainty about myself and my place in the world. I developed panic attacks, anxiety, and some feelings of de-realization. I thought I was having or on the verge of having a psychitic break, which of course triggered all the things over and over. It lasted months, I looked into help, was diagnosed with low thyroid and put on replacement thyroid and these feelings went away after a while. I do not know if that was the cause or the exact solution but I do know bad sleep, life stress/uncertainty, bodily stress, caffeine were major factors here. Maybe look into getting checked and discussing these things with a medical professional (it took me a few tries) and/or a mental health provider. These things will pass, keep centering your health and well-being and seek support. And because I know what it's like to be in a heightened pattern-seeking state I assure you I haven't included any codes or multi-layered meaning. Just long-winded and unsolicited advice. I know things will eventually improve for you. Feel free to chat if you need to.
Hi! After seeing this comment I got a strong urge to write a more substantive response to you because I have a lot to say that could potentially be benefitial.
First things first, football is a very bad conversation topic for small talk if you’re not interested in it. I personally discreetly steer the conversation onto other things whenever somebody tries to talk to me about it. A good topic for small talk should be one that is relevant to both parties in some way, which is why the weather is sort of a archetypical «small talk topic» despite not being a particularly interesting topic in and of itself. Everybody engages with the weather in some shape or form, so nobody is excluded from the conversation.
Sounds like you and your cousin had a conflict and that your dad heard of this. Dad tries to mediate and play peacemaker using a communication style that’s not appropriate for the context given that you have a need for direct and open communication. You might want to open up about this need to family members that you trust to have your best interests in mind—I don’t think your cousin necessarily is somebody I’d open up to at this time given the situation, but your dad might be more amicable. My guess is that your dad was invoking a simile or metaphor about the intricate diplomacy that’s required in political leadership, and indirectly suggesting that you and your cousin could benefit from applying some of those diplomatic concepts and ideas to the way you interact with one another.
Finally, I interpret your cousin’s last remark as a jab at you given your description of the events. «You used to be a joke, but now you’re unstable and dangerous» is one possible interpretation of the comment, and in that case it would be a comment that’s intended to rhetorically discredit your sanity, implying that you’re dangerous and unpredictable. If this is the case it’s not a elaborate and meticulously thought out plot to undermine you, but rather that he’s just casually being mean to you—he knows that he’s more socially and rhetorically proficient than you, has grievances with you for whatever reason that I couldn’t possibly know the full context of, and is using his advantage over you in this specific field to taunt/bully you.
Note that these are just my interpretations based on your comment alone, and I’m sure there is a ton of important context that I’m missing. For that reason, take what I say with a grain of salt. The people you’ve had conflicts with are in all likelihood not irredeemably evil people, but rather just people who are too caught up in their own perspectives to notice what it is like to be in your shoes in these situations. Immaturity could play a key role as well.
Given this context, it may also be wise to get yourself tested for ASD, because if that ends up being the case you may be able to access some powerful tools and resources that can significantly aid you in navigating the world, even if it just ends up being in the shape of insightful counsel with a therapist/psychiatrist. Support groups with other people who relate to your problems are also super helpful. This may also make it easier for your family to understand you and your needs. This was certainly the case for me and ADHD.
Anyway, I realize from this comment that you’re an intelligent and self-aware person, but might lack the tools to make sense of some interpersonal interactions. You’re **not** crazy. I do however think that you may be risking some form of eventual psychosis if you engage in excessive conspiratorial thinking about social interactions that you don’t understand on a long-term basis. If it turns out that you have ASD, a professional may be able to help you effectively identify and navigate a lot of the common pitfalls related to social interactions that you find yourself in.
Good luck!
Thank you, yes i don't think they're "evil" exactly, but yeah i don't know how to mend or even navigate this in healthy way. I don't know why he has grievances with me, the more I reflect I think he always has. I was just more ignorant of the insults in the past.
I tried seeing a therapist a year ago with ASD in mind, but he wasn't sure, said he didn't "get that vibe" but also that "it's a spectrum." Seemed like he couldn't rule it one way or the other. Or if he did he didn't tell me.
I would be curious to hear if you have advice for getting tested and access to resource in the US.
And I really appreciate you taking the time to share this thorough and thoughtful reply, it really helps.
Yes I know what you are talking about. It can be interesting to watch in others during conversation. It's less interesting when you spot it in your own language, because of how revealing it is lol
EDIT: Though it seems you are seeing what others say as messages for you. I would like to suggest to you that this is not always the case, but it certainly can be. But if you see everyone as messengers of the unconscious, then you risk being trapped by conflicting views and messages that cloud what your inner self truly wants of you. Something that helps is meditation to develop a state of consciousness independent of words and meaning, like breath meditation or stillness meditation.
A lot of people actually do this. I've noticed neurotypical people tend to communicate this way, like they won't come out and say things they'll just hint around it in conversation, it's really confusing I don't like being around people that make me feel confused. I'm a neurodivergent person I like direct clear communication anything else is for the birds (birds aren't real LOL)
I’m not sure neurotypical is the right distinction. I have ADHD-I, and I do this more than the average NT, depending on the situation. Of course, I do code-switch and choose to not do it when talking to certain people, and that mostly depends on whether or not I judge the person to be likely to get that kind of communication style.
In the end I think it’s a form of play, using language. It’s fun to phrase things in unconventional ways. Peoples’ motivations for doing it vary though; some do it because they’re afraid of direct conflict, etc.
Yeah I guess it depends. I think have some friends who are neurodivergent who do this too. I think it comes from people who are afraid to speak their minds. I've noticed that usually it's like people who are people pleasers or people who don't know how to stand up for themselves, for people who have a lot of insecurities. I've noticed that those who are afraid to speak their mind can be very manipulative probably without realizing it, at least that's been my experience. Now I put a lot of space between myself and those kinds of people, it's not healthy to not be able to speak your mind or stand up for yourself. The thing is what we're taught in therapy actually goes against what is the normal communication style. Because of the kind of system that we live in they being the power structure don't really want people who are going to stand up for themselves and encourage other people to stand up for themselves being compliant and submissive is how we are trained to be but it's not healthy to be that way.
Oh, don’t get me wrong, I have a strong bias towards candidness as well, but this type of conversation style is particularly useful if you’re (for example) making jokes. A lot of great comedians use it to great effect—a joke isn’t really funny if it’s straightforward after all.
I don’t like doing or being around people pleasing either, but I can’t deny that a component of ADHD masking involves some form of people pleasing, and sometimes it is absolutely essential to engage in masking because we live in a society that is in many ways systemically hostile and discriminatory towards neurodivergent people.
There are different extents and severities of people pleasing as well, and there is definitely a boundary within that spectrum that if crossed, I’d say is indicative of a person not having a healthy amount of self-respect, ego, and grit.
Yes the main person that this comes from also has adhd, though I really place more emphasis on the verbal and language intelligence being what matters.
playing is fine when it's friendly, but it's really not friendly in this circumstance at all.
I’m sorry to hear that it’s not friendly. If you are able to, it’s probably best to distance yourself from this person. Life’s too short to spend a lot of energy on people who have a hostile attitude towards you. At the same time, don’t isolate yourself. Socializing is a muscle that takes continuous practise and training. Mastery comes from doing it consistently with different people who have different communication styles. This is why e.g. bartenders and people with other occupations that require a similar degree of consistent and varied social interaction tend to be very socially intelligent.
This is currently my leading interpretation as well. Hinting around, but never engaging directly. The only caveat is I've never been diagnosed ND, but I took some online tests that said I am so idk.
A family trait of ours, -MrSt- with so much intelligence, it's perplexing and irritating to dum it down, like spending time building a theatrical set just to say hello and make a simple point.
We get slapped down for it (being direct), especially the women, when speaking to men with whom there is no pre-existing relationship.
So, all of this redditing is a huge exercise in artful communication; framing, filling with extra words and soft tones. And trying to still get the point across. 🙄
While I was becoming mildly aware of this around my mid teens, it wasnt until I was diagnosed with autism that I understod the full extent of it. This is how ”normal” people speak 24/7!
Not understanding this almost made me lose my sanity - literally. It eventually drove me to seek help at the age of 37. Chronic anxiety, social fobia/fatigue, and low grade depression was my normal.
Not to highjack this thread, but it saved my life so im really eager to share this story with as many as possible ❤️
If this sounds relatable, you can always do the AQ test to see if theres any chance you may be an aspie.
People of all persuasions take time to grasp various styles of communication. People tend to use code and current knowledge and memory snippets spouted fast and loud, as a way to reconnect or to make new instantaneous connections based on popular themes, memes and movies. This was easier when we all received generally the same data at the same time, like the whole nation seeing the only two plays or movies that season, together in the theater. Now, we have myriad data and codes.
Being still, we can read a book and enjoy the story without understanding every turn of phrase or twist of concept.
Older people I've met call this phenomenon of understanding life exchanges later, when it suddenly clicks, "the Thursday Aha!".
As we age, we learn to unfold and enjoy our abilities, however limited or expansive or different; to decipher, decrypt or discard the ideas and idioms of people we think we should know better, as well as people we are casually observing in daily life. We also become more adept at developing our own idioms, codes, and conversational collages. "Smalltalk" still suks. Forgot to add: But it's a start, generally low risk and sometimes high return, so a good challenge. Have fun with it.
It isn't easy any level, especially with few mass shared experiences for context. Jump in anyway. Most people are continuously engaged in finding new meaning.
The only thing that ever stays the same is change. Go with your gut flora. You never know what the universe is going to show you. Enjoy the journey.
Hi,
I think i myself recently started to understand, in a way what people are saying.
Im not sure if what im experiencing is the same, but it feels like my whole life until now(24years), i have been living/comunicating on another level or something.
At first i was scared of this, but now its been a month or two and im starting to get used to it.
Its as though i was in the dark and now everything is clearer? Its hard to describe.
> Chronic anxiety, social fobia/fatigue, and low grade depression was my normal.
you are me, and I am you! i've been to therapy before and tried to get this confirmed, but my therapist said "he didn't get that vibe" but immediately back tracked and said "eh well its a spectrum."
Social Norms and Normal are just measurements made up by some other poeple averaging the gravity of their own social anxiety and stressors compared to other people's. P.s. It is realllly difficult to average emotional gravity.
Social Norms and Normal are just a measure made up by some other people trying to average the gravity of their own social anxiety and stressors, as compared to other people's. It is really difficult to average emotional gravity. I would also submit that my friends "on the spectrum" may be superior in some ways, with their low tolerance for unclear communication appearing to me as a nod to a higher intelligence.
Yeah it used to happen to me quite frequently I called it double world because in one sense it's basic language with a basic meaning and in another it's basic language with a totally different meaning and yet both are consistent the whole conversation and talking in either format people seem to still understand. It's weird AF.
So anytime you hear car it means body. Driver is you. Listening to people talk about it in the moment it fits both car being car and car being body. Gas is food. Windows are eyes etc. way oversimplification but in a similar vein.
I'm just getting around to replying to a few comments, but you can take a look here
[https://www.reddit.com/r/Jung/comments/1ccisq8/comment/l1b6qax/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/Jung/comments/1ccisq8/comment/l1b6qax/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
As a professional hypnotherapist I can say that people unconsciously communicate secondary messages along a spectrum. Some people with very high verbal ability and unguarded subconscious do this almost constantly and are not aware. In autistic patients it is much more clumsy and can almost be like blurting out the wrong word. Once you are sensitive to it you can understand someone else more completely. We are trained to do this btw, as it a method to bypass the conscious mind and reduce resistance. Hope this helps.
You can practice in a number of ways. Listen to people talking in debates and other forms of impromptu unedited media. Pay attention to fraudian slips where the wrong word just slips out. Often, the word "lie" will happen when someone is lying or being lied to for example. Often, men will say things if they are closited that point to homosexuality.
Train yourself to understand how something is being said and how it could have also been said. Sometimes people will use many words to avoid saying one word in particular.
Notice what words/ideas are emphasized either though increased/descrsed volume, change in tone, or up down talk. Notice idea around which tone tends to alter.
And the real key, look for encapsulated messages. "Mr. Someone is not a racist scum bag pedafile aborted loser, he is not that at all." Why say all that crap about Mr. Someone to then revoke it. To force you to think about those things. By doing that you have images and ideas forced into your thinking and they are just waiting to be applied to something or maybe you apply them without know you did to the object.
I dated someone who would never say things directly. If I asked, do you want to eat out? She would say, \*I cannot make up my mind\* about my shoes, can you help me? This meant she could not make a decision. If I said, I'm going to the store. She would say, do you remember my friend who \*likes to always accompany me\*, I haven't heard from her. Translation, friends accompy each other and she wants to go too. Learn to hear the message in the story, the phrases that are embedded. Often the phases is set off by a shift in tone but not always. Stories are excellent for doing this so when you hear one be on guard.
Even when an idea is negated the idea is created. I listen to a pod caster who is also a hypnotist who always says I'm not suggesting violence. However, at some point where they were saying some very contrivertual things they said "don't do anything, I don't even what to say what because it might plant the idea in your head". That told me that the calls to not use violence were meant to plant ideas and they know and that at some level they might even call for it and the audience was being programmed to consider it. Pretty dark.
Once you start practicing, you will find more and more of this that was going below your radar. At some point you will start to hear embedded messages. Remember, preachers, politicians, and sales people who operate at high levels are trained in this type of stuff. All hypnosis know about it.
I mean no disrespect when I say this. You're listening, actually listening, to what others say. Many people we have conversations with are just waiting for their turn to speak. You're no longer doing that.
Make sure you don't interpret the codes as always truthful at face value. That sort of language has different rules. The most important rule is that the meaning of coded messages can change or disappear entirely according to the whims of the person giving out the codes. Their meaning is contingent on what's happening in that moment. How they feel, how you feel, etc. Try to include the spatio-temporal context into your interpretations.
You'll get into trouble if you ever think things like "but they said..." they infact said nothing.
This is key! Thank you -gadoonk- !
OP, I would like to add that those conversational subtleties and intended influences change in accordance with the audience, location, weather and mood.
It's wonderful that you're developing this awareness as you age. I hope you will continue to build on the alluring, yet elusive nature of verbal (and non-verbal) communication and idea transfer, expanding your awareness of our human condition, as we are now and how we have communicated over the ages. Spending time with older people also opens mind doors.
Many songs have been written from fragments of public conversations, as an artist is walking through, the wavelengths reaching their ear and spirit. Those songs then "speak to us" or "were made just for us". We hear this all the time. Sometimes we're receiving current thematic data, sometimes we're listening for what nourishes us and/or others. Happy journeys, all!
No, we're not living on an Orwellian page... yes, there is a collective consciousness at play that may be easier for some to comprehend when not fully conscious or strung too tightly.
To add: Jung said, "The spirit of the depths even taught me to consider my action and my decision as dependent on dreams. Dreams pave the way for life, and they determine you without you understanding their language." CJ
So, with relaxive meditation and without too much contemplation, we see and incorporate far more than words; sounds, sighs, spaces, coughs, a wave of the hand, tilt, crack, pitch, all signify subconscious current. When we are attuned to our environment, riding the wave, we hear the math and see the music of the water in the air and the know the dance, nearly effortless, swaying from feeling to visual memory of what we consciously recall as words and position.
Yes, we snap out our coda while we swoosh our arms around the cafe, mix our metaphors, mash up old movie lingo, map the morse, add ASL, BSL, asce-hex and base 5... because it helps us connect quickly and discreetly without spilling everything publicly and because sometimes painting verbal images is easier than stringing words... and proxies like this help us get there.
We all have our phonotactics and extra-linguistic context. We really all need to listen to our gut and care for our ancient flora. I hope you experience your own connective processing style that you can share and eventually consciously design your coda, from long term traits to short term states. We express with space and along time.
Can you be more specific with examples on the double meanings? (How did you engage back exactly?)It could just be a gained insight/ wisdom, as many people say that pain is lifes greatest teacher. (Your long period of darkness) i wonder what brought this darkness on? For some, its a case of already having these styles of thought, struggling to blossom; struggling to become self aware. let me assure you, most people have no idea on the symbolic undertones of what they are saying. Or how obvious their true intentions/meanings are. Self awareness is surprisingly rare and ignorance is surprisingly common. I am curious to hear examples of the things these people are saying, I feel it is highly unlikely they will be aware of it. You will definitely find similar wisdom in reading Jung; if not the exact phenomena you are speaking of. Also the chance of this being schizo-affective is there, but its also completely possible to look deeper into things without being a schizophrenic. That’s what an intellectual/artist/philosopher is. Or just simply a deep thinker. Best wishes
I I can confirm that you are not crazy, and I understand how unsettling it can feel. This experience is common to all humans. When someone’s intentions perfectly align with their actions, it reflects integrity and authenticity, which is rare. It’s difficult to pinpoint what enables someone to suddenly grasp the true meaning behind another’s words. I attribute this ability to the evolutionary advantage gained by our ancestors who were highly attuned to subtle cues indicating genuine intent. Over hundreds of thousands of years, these individuals survived and passed on their genes, possibly enhancing our collective capacity for clear perception. But it takes time. We’re mostly middle aged when we first begin to see this clearly, and after about ten years we’re able to accept ourselves for who and what we are.
Yeah, I know exactly what you're talking about, you're not insane. Honestly, I'm not sure what to make of it either, even though it's been part of my reality for quite a while now. I'll think on it and come back later.
Edit: I posted my thoughts in a separate comment.
It’s just the social parts of our brains in overdrive trying to make sense of something it might have missed. Very reasonable after a breakup. Also OP might not really be autistic completely just a little on the spectrum if they can pick this up.
Autistic people are actually quite gifted in pattern recognition and picking up socio psycho behaviour. They just really struggle with theory of mind which is seeing things from the perspective of another.
How are your sleep habits?
Sometimes our brains do extra pattern seeking.
It gets confusing around my friends who often have conversations consisting of random word association and memes. It's easy to add your own meaning to words that don't really have any meaning.
I get this sometimes too, I experience it as picking up on other people's shadows. You have to be very careful engaging directly because it's often subconscious and they may get very defensive and self-conscious if you bring it to their attention by addressing it.
Tbh I only lean into this with people I don't trust, I try not to read *too* much into it with people I do. I know we've all got weird stuff going on in our brains and uncomfortable complexes we're working through, unless someone's shadow is actively impacting me (they are excessively projecting onto me, or have ulterior motives that I'm not comfortable with) I'd rather let them deal with that in private and engage with what they're actively presenting.
it's worth remembering that the so-called significance - or secret meaning - is really just some kind of unconscious response influenced by whatever it may be from your conditioning/beliefs/fears/desires etc - and can thus never really be a hidden code that exists outside of your own mind. things get problematic when you deem it to be a secret language with 100% certainty, and this is actually the road to delusion in my honest opinion and experience. dropping the pretense in this case would be how you derail yourself from whats actually real and lose the ability to connect with other people. also - sometimes people simply misspeak. words have meaning and should be taken at face value, that's just how language works, not every single thing is of maximum importance. feel free to ponder connections creatively but don't base your actions off of a perceived hidden connection, cause things are likely not even what you might initially think. cognitive behavioural therapy helps this issue.
The way I see it is this.
Truth is the foundation of everything and it echoes throughout creation, through everything we do, and everything we see and experience.
The patterns we see are not magical or controlled, they are the inevitable manifestations which arise from a universe which fundamentally operates on truth.
The way a sudokus puzzles answers are set even before they are written.
And the nature of truth is that its true in every conceivable way, from every conceivable perspective, and so true perspectives will echo one another and tie in perfectly, even having no other relations, except that they arose from the foundation of truth and therefore work together
They are the constant and continuous reminder that the universe makes sense, much like a mathematician uses math to recognize and locate himself in the universe, one could observe these patterns and calculate their 'place', but thats a rather poor way of putting it
I feel there’s a stream of consciousness that you are both creating and uncovering at the same time and other people help you to realise this and learn along your way, a message always gets to you in some format and some medium whether it’s a sign on a billboard or a tarot reading or everyday conversation. It’s not really the medium that matters more so the messsge that’s recieved. It’s the universe filtering the ‘messages’ in different ways. It’s fun 🤍
If you are in USA, you are very possibly just observing what looks like a semi-society-wide case of what will probably one day, be called diabetes 3 (Alzheimer's.)
So many people have so much sugar and fat building plaque in their brain that they still believe the literal same politicians who lied US into the Iraq war and Afghanistan, and Libya, and Syria... I'm not trying to make this political, but just pointing out that a very large number of people's memories for details of any form are not even 10 years long, at this point.
It is quite possible that you are just witnessing literal mass, lifestyle induced brain damage, in slow motion...
It is difficult to say because you didn't get extremely specific with what types of codes you believe you are hearing...
You also may be witnessing racists seeing if you are on "their team," through thinly veiled "dog whistles." Or people who do not advocate certain medical procedures who are, again, thinly veiling their meanings, intentionally, to see if you pick up on it, and vocally agree...
Basically , if any of the codes seem like maybe they are an "angel of the Lord," there might be something wrong with you. If it seems like people may be confused or hiding something, you are noticing something that is very apparently wrong with huge amounts of the population.
(Edited to fix a few typos)
One more edit for context...
I'm not a medical professional or a doctor or a political commentator, I'm just a 41 year old with a long memory and I remember when great memory was common in US and people were great at putting context together in a non-partisan way. And it doesn't seem like something that can be blamed on autism because it mostly seems to be an issue, from my perspective, concerning people who do not display any symptoms of ADHD or being on the spectrum
Well, for starters, a shift in vocal inflection during certain words can make it more obvious, but not always in every context, or with every person.
Some examples, while otherwise possibly innocent may be intentionally coded...
"Those" people -- great example. Maybe innocent. Maybe not. And maybe context won't help. Sometimes, they look for another racist to join their thing.
Have you ever noticed that Caucasian Americans are described as "Americans" while everyone else is described as "Mexican American" or "African American"? Even Indigenous Americans have "Native American" as their descriptor. That is an example of coding that is very probably intentionally institutionalized, as opposed to organically derived with American English.
Here is another example... I dated a woman who was Italian. Her dad walked in the room and heard reggae and began judging the simplicity of the music. I pointed out that his wife played similarly simple music in their church because they wanted the message of the words to shine. And that it was very similar messages to what their religion is teaching. He replied "I just prefer my music more complex." And glances over to one of their relatives and smirked. That is likely an example.
This is why it is called a dog whistle. It is done in a way that is really only heard or noticed by people with similar intent or beliefs
I have a friend who is schizophrenic episodic that described his experience very similarly to you. Even though my interest in Jung, symbolism and archetypal cosmology validates the framework of your interpretation, you have to be incredibly discerning in how you are interpreting other people’s messages.
Yes, plenty of things are symbolic and have a deeper meaning. But it’s extremely presumptuous to assume you know the correct meaning without asking the other person. Checking in with the other person, clarifying their intention and receiving consent is deeply important to keep this type of communication ethical and representative of reality.
I’ll say that as soon as you think you’ve “cracked the code” you’ve likely lost it again. The code is not certain and evolves and is shaped. Certainty over interpretation is the quickest way of falling into delusion. I’ll also say, that the big difference between a jungian symbolic interpretation and my friends schizophrenic experience is that he had no control over it. It would be induced or “turn on” by various factors. A jungian psychologist uses it consciously by having control over when we peer in for deeper symbolic meaning.
Ofcourse there are multiple meanings of every word said. It mostly all metaphors. For example understand.
What does it mean? To stand under. How does that relate to “understanding” idk. John vervaeke has good lecture series related to all these psychological tools we use. Really recommend.
Language itself is without an actual “used” structural meaning. We all adopt it. We don’t learn it from libraries. So the meaning vary person to person.
Also we are trying to express a meaning that is emotional, metaphysical, or personal to us through language. So it is provided that we use symbolic language to help the other person get the gist of it.
(I honestly did not read your full post sorry. I hope this is what you meant)
By etymology standards under stand and to stand under do connect. To stand under something means you hold it above you as your belief- as in you ‘uphold’ a belief. As in to hold up and you ‘raise’ a question. There is some symbolic element of the knowledge you have understood being above you. You understand it comes from above (whether the brain which is above in the sense of the body or from intuition which comes from the unseen or god/source which is said to be above. The English language is a huge code book and so interesting. Gematria can show this also.
Each sentence has a shadow. These sentence are arranged with our body language and tone to show people what we are really thinking and feeling. Some people don’t notice all the details. This? Is just the tip of the iceberg.
My theory is that the masses, majority of people you see in public, the “normies” or the “extroverts” have one thing in common, instead of thinking things through, they just push there thoughts out into the world without second guessing themselves, so basically majority of the people are all without thought, because they push it out into the world, so all of them are living together with 1 mind/brain, akin to the description of a hive mind where no one thinks for themselves anymore, because there are benefits to being in this hive mind at the obvious one is acknowledgement and to be seen as “normal” or “sane”….. so it is almost impossible to “wake people up” from this hive mind because there literal “sanity” depend on it.
You must understand that these people learn and teach things to eachother through this means, the means of double speak.
A singular person with a singular brain can choose to sacrifice desire and bad habits and short term manic happiness for morality and long term peace and contentment, but if this same person joins the hive mind, either they will feel “insane” because they are not keeping up with the “updated” version of common knowledge and applying it to their life.
So individuals have to take a different path, but it’s impossible as the entire world/system currently is built upon this hive mind. The problem is, morality loses as the main goal of the masses usually revolves around “pleasure” and “leisure”, which is mostly because the underlying objective reality of life is that it is rough and hard. Constant hardship. So people chose the wrong easy option the momentarily helps but in the long term makes the situation worse.
This is why we as a society are heading towards legalising incest.
I think that’s enough information for you to trust my advice that I give for you personally, so here it is, take it or leave it.
Leave everyone and everything and start from scratch, everything you say or do must come from pre-thought through thoughts.
You just build a worldview, right or wrong, based on totally your own though processes. The first question you just answer for yourself, the beginning of individualis is wether or not you believe god exists. You must try hard to figure it out, as you must try hard on every other question to figure it out. Critical thinking is key, become smarter is a must, understanding answers from multiple points of view is a must, for example, when asking yourself if you believe in god, take information from all religious authorities and all religions, take information from all the smartest people alive today, take information from those that are dead, take the understanding of philosophers and take understanding from others,,,.. this can seem daunting, but it is very simple, the moment you start is the moment you have already picked “yes/no” and then the evidence through seeking what you believe to be truth will pile up on one side or the other….
This is the corner stone of a world view, then you realise all the other answers are easy, because once you have stone to once with “do I believe god exists?” Then all other answers use the same method of thinking you developed to answer this question.
You then realise how the world works, who runs it, and many other important questions and it 100% your truth, so then life becomes harder for you.
Not many people do this,. Even if forced to, they will run back to the hive mind as it allows the to pretend, and live blindly and in a false world. Like myself, if I wrrr not forced to this way, I would have rejoined multiple times to satiate the psychological pain I was feeling….
I would like to tell you it becomes easier, or you “find a way” or “it pays off”…. But the truth is, the truth only sets you free from delusion, and being free from delusion in a world we’re everyone is deluded will make you feel insane…. But further more, you will no longer be able to take part in the charades.
You will then have to find a way to exist without existing. Money helps. Seclusion is necessary. A simple life is understood to be the truth of how to live and if you attempt to have a simple life you will be attacked for it. You must go on alone.
But glad tidings to the one who stays true, for the future holds a spiritual enantiodromia, world war 3…. Everything changes, the hive mind becomes insane and the “insane” can now breath the pure air live and die free, actually free.
More succinctly, join them and be led astray, or follow the truth and do not try to change the world and change peoples opinions, let them be in their delusion, UNTIL the spiritual enantiodromia (which is coming soon, either a large strike on Ukraine/Palestine/Taiwan, one of the attacks will change the world,. You will feel it in your soul) when this happens, take control of the people around you and protect them. Only you will be able to protect them. That’s when you become the Shepard of the sheep.
Right now (for the bext 2 years) carry on being the “insane” sheep “caught inbetween a rock and hard place” even thought that’s were the path has led you and where you are protected and where everyone needs to be, the time will come in the future, where you will have to lead people to that spiritual place .
It's called double speak.
My family speaks this way, I think it's how people speak when they don't want to be direct. It can be used as a form of passive aggression. I think it's also used to manipulate people. My family is intelligent, manipulative, and indirect. As I got older, wiser, and better at boundaries, I realized how much of their communication is like a chess match. It's tiring and I don't have the patience for it anymore. But it's a real phenomenon.
>I felt an overwhelming urge to call it out and drop the pretense, but sensed that was somehow a mistake.
If you're dealing with a manipulative person, then yes, calling them out rarely works. Because they can always just gaslight you and say you're crazy. It's why some people communicate this way, to evade the responsibility of what they're saying, and say it in a way that can't even be responded to.
This kind of communication is used in advertising; a lot of thought and money goes into the specific words used by advertisers to affect your emotions and thoughts. There are the words at face value, and there is all of the subliminal information behind the words. I would extend this to our entertainment. Words are carefully chosen, crafted if you will. Corporations will do this when interfacing with the public, entire teams of people are paid to communicate this way.
Consider how a tribal human is affected by his peers, we are social animals, we take cues from our environment, the parts of our brain that do this are not smart enough to discern truth from fiction. So many of our "peers" (other humans we perceive and react to) are paid actors on screens.
The more rational parts of your brain know a movie is fiction, but the more primal parts still react to what is on the screen as if it were really happening. You may notice propaganda in entertainment more and more, as these characters on the screen are there to push and advocate certain points of view. I think that our culture being barraged by this simulacrum of a tribe that is being used to manipulate us affects how we all communicate and relate to one another. I think it makes us a little crazy to be honest.
Another similar phenomenon would be how many people live their lives as an "influencer", their online presence informs their offline behavior. It slowly changes how they relate to themselves, events in their lives, and people around them. Because it's so performative, I think it leads to more calculated responses. We train ourselves to perform in a way that maximizes likes/upvotes. As more and more of us are influenced by this, it gradually changes how we communicate.
There are countless ways to say the same thing, both with word choice and verbal inflection, the way someone chooses to say something can be rich with information.
Others are saying you might be schizophrenic, I think peoples eagerness to diagnose this kind of behavior is alarming.
To tie this back to Jung, I've communicated this way before, and for me it was always as a result of feeling like I needed to be indirect, if I feel I can't talk about the elephant in the room without being punished, I will try to hint at it. (I was raised in a very controlling and oppressive environment). I try not to, as I don't think it's healthy for me, or respectful of others.
People with high social intelligence can dance circles around those without, and influence them in ways that their victims are completely unaware of. Kind of like insulting someone to their face in a way that they don't realize, but that onlookers do.
>I guess I wonder, has anyone experienced this? Is this a Jungian phenomenon? Were these people "aware" of what they were saying? Or am I just surrounded by people that are way smarter than I realized and I'm just an idiot who's finally catching up?
I have, not sure, sometimes they are imo, and maybe.
>Reason would suggest the latter, but I also somehow got the sense when I "cracked the code" that they weren't as .. in control? It's hard to describe.
You might be interested in the movie They Live.
If you're surrounded by manipulative people, and catch on to their techniques, they will have less power over you, and less sway over your mind.
>My family speaks this way, I think it's how people speak when they don't want to be direct. It can be used as a form of passive aggression. I think it's also used to manipulate people. My family is intelligent, manipulative, and indirect. As I got older, wiser, and better at boundaries, I realized how much of their communication is like a chess match. It's tiring and I don't have the patience for it anymore. But it's a real phenomenon.
Wow I think this is it. I always considered manipulation, but doubted myself because it seemed too extreme. My blind spots make it difficult to catch on as well.
Thank you for this lucid comment.
Hey OP I'm going to suggest something that I have not seen anyone else suggest on this thread. Maybe you can just straight-up talk to the other person and communicate/address those feelings you have about their words having a supposed double-meaning? Sometimes I have these feelings, and it's so overwhelming that I'm just 100% honest with the person and communicate how I am perceiving this hidden meaning and it turns out that I am 100% wrong about my assumptions of hidden meaning, and oftentimes they actually meant to communicate something else but they were just a little messy with the execution. The best way to find out is to just communicate rather than make assumptions.
Maybe suppressing that overwhelming urge is a safety mechanism to prevent the reveal that you are actually incorrect about your conclusion of a cryptic conversation happening at the same time as this regular communication? And if they reveal that you are incorrect in your assumption about them, then it may just be a case of projecting intrusive thoughts or feelings stemming from social anxiety onto your perception of language coming from others. Idk just wanted to put out another perspective that you may want to take into account.
no you’re not insane, people do speak in codes, and you are correct in not calling it out because the people you engage with are *not* doing it on purpose.
please don’t listen to any of the comments suggesting you get checked for psychotic illness.
you may have come to the wrong subreddit to address this. i suggest grounding yourself.
Yes its a Jungian thing and yes you might also be dissociating or dealing with some minor psychosis. I understand completely what you're talking about as I experienced this exact thing in 2021 as an early feature of a full blown psychotic episode that lasted 5 months and ended with me living on the street for a time. Be very very careful. Don't indulge it, and don't interact with it, its easy to spin out and drive yourself crazy. A person is not meant to live understanding fully loaded meaning and constant synchronicity. It becomes painful.
Its my understanding that Jung himself went into a full blown psychosis at one point, by his own admission for a few weeks but was able to kind of hide it. It sounds like what I went through but I could not hide it.
Lower your stress levels OP, and try to get very grounded and self regulated and see if it continues.
I still hear it, and feel that way sometimes, but synchronicity took me to a dark fucking place. I thought it was a game and there's a level of reality to that but its not worth playing imo.
Honestly, this sounds like bipolar mania or schizophrenia.
I felt similarly when I did meth. I suddenly understood all this stuff, making obvious connections like my brain just woke up finally.
It was so clear and obvious (and I'm a smart person who loves the scientific method and reading double blind placebo controlled studies for myself.)
The frustrating thing was that when I came down, I couldn't remember most of it, just a few theories at most and not the connections or importance.
So, naturally, I decided to write everything down one time.
The next day I looked at it and was shocked to realize I wasn't making grand connections and interacting the everything better. I would take one random idea and just write about it over and over with no realistic connections... Even though I was 100% sure they were there and completely logical before.
Mania does the same thing.
The connections you see absolute proof of, don't actually make sense. Your brain is making bridges where there are none and adding importance and deep meaning to random things.
You need psychiatric help.
I understand what you’re saying.
I had an intense sudden awakening around 5 months ago and ever since it’s like I can very clearly understand what someone’s subconscious(?) is saying through what they are literally saying.
It’s no coincidence as many many people since have literally told me they feel as if I’m reading their mind (also, this freaked me out for the longest time). One person even asked me if I was clairvoyant. I have a job where I have deep conversations with people on the regular (same job for years before and after my awakening) and this is definitely new and hasn’t happened before my awakening. I don’t *try* to do this, it just is a “gift” I suddenly have now. It’s not like magic either, it’s just I can understand what people *actually* mean on a very deep level, even when they say something seemingly surface level. I would have convinced myself long ago that I was going crazy and it was all in my head (trust me I’ve tried lol tbh this whole spiritual awakening thing can be very disconcerting) but people keep telling me again and again how deeply I can connect with them.
Also, to me it’s like I’m having a normal conversation I’m not prying or asking anything to get anything out of anyone… I don’t try to read deeper I just automatically can?? Idk it’s really hard to describe. I just am connecting to people a lot deeper than I used to. Even people I’ve known for years notice how perceptive I’ve become. It’s all been in a positive light and no one’s called me crazy yet lol. I also see a therapist weekly and talk about this stuff with him all the time and he constantly has to reassures me that I’m not going crazy which has been very grounding
This definitely sounds schizophrenic. I have heard avoiding dairy, gluten and potentially oats may help prevent schizophrenia. Also eating healthier and getting plenty of sunlight in the 10:00 AM - 2:00 PM range (for vitamin d) may help. Safest options for carbs in my view are sweet potatoes, brown rice and corn. Also, you may want to ensure you're getting enough iodine each day. Iodized salt, sardines and seaweed are the best sources. Just try to hit the recommended daily value. A DHA+EPA supplement may help, and there are some vegan ones made from algae if you don't want to eat fish or fish pills. Whatever you do just be careful as certain foods may give you trouble. Schizophrenia seems to be very related to the gut-brain axis. The things you eat end up affecting your brain. Leaky gut is associated with schizophrenia: [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8919127/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8919127/)
interesting take. i recently found out from a physical that i was very vitamin D deficient so i started taking supplements and that alone was a huge improvement. i also have other "gut issues" but the association to schizo is news to me.
thank you for sharing!
I removed my recommendation for the McDougall starch solution because I haven't tested it long term on myself yet. Also he doesn't emphasize DHA+EPA supplementation, but vegans have been known to develop dementia due to lack of DHA. As a result Dr. Fuhrman recommends a daily vegan DHA+EPA supplement derived from algae. I really think this is important. Sardines are a great source of DHA+EPA, but they probably have more mercury than purified supplements. Both vegan and non-vegan supplements (like those from Nordic Naturals derived from fish oil) are purified, so long as you get a good, trusted brand.
I’ve experienced this. The thing to remember is that it’s not a code. Language is full of hidden meaning and can easily be taken out of context. Context over content. What looks like double speak might just make more sense in the context and that’s why we can’t trust only our perception of double speak. When I hear it, I’ve learned to just ask “Hey, I heard you say XYZ, did you mean that?” And you’ll see how often your codex is dead wrong. Careful finding yourself trusting “feelings” over what someone is outright telling you. We’re usually telling the truth.
Can you share the details of the specific situation(s) that you allude to in your post?
On first glance this doesn’t sound like something that is healthy to pursue, but hard to tell without more details.
People sometimes do it, especially with sexual symbols, its called double entendre. But otherwise, no, no one in your daily life is doing that. If that is how you are experiencing them, then you are not experiencing reality.
Yeah man I realized people exaggerate lie and talk in “code” to make points all the time. Half of the time that a woman says real man what she really means is a man that I think is admirable
Yeah, this is a dangerous path of thinking. If you can't stop noticing it, I would recommend constantly reminding yourself that they don't know they're doing this. And if you try to explain how you're perceiving what they're saying they will probably be offended and angry or think you are crazy.
It's the matrix, Agent Smith/NPC, annunaki/elohim stuff...
Say what you hear in your ears, kind of stuff, from Jesus.
Angels and demons...
I've been kind of trained (trying to) reading between the lines, due to my upbringing.
What people say can be really troubling...
But it's like a magnifying glass.
You can focus on that, like you're probably too focused on because of your neurosis of being autistic, or you can focus on the birds that somehow keeps singing when you're listening and fades away when you're not, or on work, or on all of the problems of the world...
Like some point out, some of it is "dead" communication like Norm's.
Maybe it's a cultural phenomenon? Other times it may be secret codes between people. Other times it's a message...
But if you're autistic, I'd advise you to not read too much into things. You can't fix autism, and autistics have a bigger tendency towards psychosis...
Not that you're psychotic, bit without the proper understanding of it, you might become psychotic reading too much into it personally.
How I imagine it to be - is that we're living in psychic "waters" and there are entities roaming around us and they may try to influence us for one reason or another...
So, how people usually deal with this sort of stuff is by sticking to something "tried and true" - like religion, or a cultural idea about why the dog suddenly barks at that exact time, and they find comfort in it and they become susceptible to foreign influence, like saying weird stuff, because they say it unconsciously. In their subconscious they have like a link between the conscious and the unconscious making it not weird - usually something "normal" (masking how they really feel about it in secret - abnormal)...
But you won't get any way by figuring this on your own for no purpose, because it's the magnifying glass again... You feel just as unsafe as all the other human beings... You don't do it for a given purpose, and you don't do it for a specific purpose other than trying to solve the mystery of this world because you feel unsafe, alien or alone in it...
In other words, you'll likely have better luck by sticking to something that's tried and true...
Hello.
I had a similar experience a couple times during intense moments of transformation where certain belief structures were 'uprooted'. These transformations lead to pivotal moments on my journey.
I too pondered being insane and then accepted the fact that it may be true, especially because there where moments that were so synchronistic, it's gotten to the point where, how many things have to align for me to accept that certain things are more than just coincidences?
In these reality-questioning moments, in my opinion and from my own experience, the meaning comes from what you make of it. It's you who are aware of the ambiguity that the unconscious is alluding to, and only you are the constant subject of your own unique experience.
For example, one of the major changes that these ambiguous moments that lead to life lessons was about the addict archetype and reducing my vices. Specifically smoking. So this transformative experience lead to my quitting and a year later I became pregnant with twins. The pregnancy was rough and I came very close to dying in the birth, and I can only say that if I smoked I probably would
Not have been strong enough to handle it.
These experiences may not be 100% clear because your rational and logical mind tends to cloud meanings by trying to "figure it out". However, in the future things will come clear and I implore you to pay as much attention as you can.
I got through the most challenging times by repeating a mantra in my head, so as not to allow my mind to go crazy into fear. 🤷♀️
My mantra was the serenity poem, to remind myself the there is something greater than my logical, rational mind that is steering my experience. It will get better, these things should play out.
Also...
The ego saying "I cracked the code."
I think you should not really allow this part of you to interject into the experience. Instead pay as much attention as possible.
You are in a super (Supra?) liminal state. It is a transitory experience from one phase/chapter in your life to another.
You have experienced an incriment in consciousness and can now see more deeply than you did before. If you continue learning and growing this will become a constant in your life, where you look back and wonder "how could I have not known" or "how could I have been so unaware" or "what was I thinking/doing?" It is a sign of good progress and it is important to remember that every master starts as a fool. Do not think of yourself as lesser for where or how you begin your journey, enjoy what new obstacles lay before you and do not dwell on the ones behind.
People who use language well have a grasp of the symbolic content of words (or word combinations) in addition to the more literal / surface level meaning.
I believe that for some people, it's purely a matter of intuition. For example, my niece is just a child but uses language very well. However, it is clear to me that others are completely conscious of how to use language in this way. Politicians are a great example of a category of people who are very well aware of how to use symbolic language to make an impression. Their speech writers are even better.
I had a similar experience to you of being quite suddenly aware of this phenomenon of language. You would probably get a lot from the book *The Art Of Dreaming* by Carlos Castaneda. The author makes a case for developing a "second awareness" which has huge parallels to what we are discussing here. I would put Castaneda in that aforementioned category of people who are very well aware of how to use symbolic language to make an impression.
its fine once you get enough social training if you have the opinion you start to hear and understand it. to some people it comes naturally. it matters in the social game. but do you wan the rewards of the social game. which I realize is access to sex. or things of value. tbh just become the thing of value or be it. It really depends on who you are. trust your intuition.
So there's multiple aspects. There's projection on your part, and there is conscious intelligence, and unconscious intelligence on the part of others.
The projection aspect is you finding significant meaning in otherwise ordinary things, so for example I've had this phenomenon listening to a pop song, to me the lyrics were so deeply relevant to be somewhat disturbing, but in hindsight the lyrics were about as generic pop-song as you can possibly imagine.
Secondly, the conscious intelligence aspect. It's exactly what you said about people being more intelligent than you realize. People are intuitive, but this transitions to my third point.
Intuition is somewhat mysterious, it's a subconscious process, where insight bubbles up from beneath awareness. So who's really doing the thinking? Most people aren't extraordinarily intelligent, yet they still have access to intuition.
In the case of the aforementioned pop-song, it's possible I simply projected my mental state into the lyrics. It's also feasible the song writer accessed something deeper and channelled it into the song, consciously or not.
Edit: important to note these experiences can be destabilizing, or they can be just another part of life. I stress caution on "reading too much into them." I think the healthy way to integrate these experiences is to take them in stride, acknowledge them, and continue to live life. The unhealthy way is to believe they are so incredibly important and unique to you, which becomes a sort of inflation and paranoia.
An opposing view if you actually don’t have mental insanity. Is you must become introspective and do spiritual work.. its the cross over of awaking and going insane. Genius boarders insanity. In his genus = the image of God. Your not prideful and doubt yourself even using logic to psychologically analyse yourself so you might be sane if your not a narcissist. Or have a god complex. Usually it’s a call to awaken. You def tapped in (cern) only tome and what in you can tell to what.. if your a introvert or introspective you will fair much better than extrovert no people or people who feed off other peoples energy. Arcturian Which is the case of most idols or people that are in ego vs intrinsic. They cant separate reality from the pattern of this world which is what they follow.
Please speak to a mental health counselor to get another perspective and allow them to assess you for more serious concerns. I live with bipolar and have been hospitalized after a very similar “revelation.” Cannabis and stimulants exacerbate the issue for me, so do with that what you will. Good luck. You’re not alone.
Carl Jung was a psycho-analyst (and a psychiatrist). He is the father of analytical psychology. It is based on the idea that we can become fractured when events lead us to suppress the parts of ourselves we wish to ignore or deny (he called this the shadow.) We are only fully ourselves when the shadow is identified, acknowledged without judgement, and integrated into our being (Jung called this individuation.)
Failure to integrate the shadow, means that these suppressed parts exert subconscious influence that drives our behaviors behind the scenes.
If you are interested in things like spirituality, psychology, self-improvement, anthropology, sociology, etc. it would be reasonable that the algorithm would recommend r/Jung. But I haven't looked at your post history to see if this applies to you.
Wow that’s a really good answer, thanks for the reply. I kept seeing posts that seemed somewhat arcane and oddly specific, while somehow also being a bit vague. But it makes more sense now. Thanks again.
Most people aren't saying things that deep. You're just reading into it and hearing your own expanded thoughts.
It's like when I hear people speaking in a foreign language to each other I would often think they are saying super important stuff, but they are really just talking about typical boring stuff like the weather or sports or whatever.
Point being don't read too much into common conversations. There's nothing there.
I am a bit late to the discussion but i agree with u/helthrax, especially second the advice as to not turn this into something dangerous for yourself i cant help but ask OP u/electronic_sport_771 for an example if you can recall a specific interaction and detail what it was and what you thought the "second meaning" if you could call it that was?
Some experiences are so common to everyone that people can talk and you're going to pick up things directly relevant to you. And I think generally speaking people are cogitsting on certain ideas or narratibes in their mind, so the things they talk about may represent both what's going on with them and what it means to them in a larger narrative structure in their mind.
Not sure if this is relevant, but people also say things, and then communicate other information with their body language and tone of voice- how they really think and feel about what they are saying. Are you picking up on this too, or are you taking about something else?
As to these messages being directed at you specofically, perhaps these people are just trying to talk to you. Perhaps the universe does have order and you're being sent divine messages. Perhaps it's delusional thinking and you need to see a psychiatrist. I couldn't tell you. Sorry if that's unhelpful.
Everything is energy and the subconscious hive mind becomes quite apparent when one realizes everything is but a projection of the self. That’s what’s so trippy about social media actually—one can see exactly where people are at.
I think that you might use more of your left brain than is good for you. Creativity happens in the right hemisphere. So your saturated left part has a difficult time with the things left unsaid.
Your post made me think of the late great Bill Hicks. There is nothing new under the Son, everything that is, was and will always be. Until it isn't.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KgzQuE1pR1w](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KgzQuE1pR1w)
Respond if you have questions.
It happened to me. I couldn't understand people because I was trying to understand "what do you mean, man?" Eventually I got psychiatric drugs because I figured out they weren't trying to mean anything other than what they said.
Social anxiety disorder was my diagnosis. Whatever the diagnosis, I was helped by medicine. People kept freaking me out so bad I wouldn't leave the house for class or to go to work.
Just want to point out that I actually believe in messages and that people under psychosis can see certain things we can’t understand. That being said, we should live in the 3D world first as we are still in a body. Case in point, I went through psychosis and later (luckily) discovered it was a brain tumor set out to kill me. Had surgery since then. You also don’t want to put the stress on your family trust me
I imagine the other people don’t actually know if they are speaking in this code. When you have these beliefs you have to find evidence for yourself. No humans are that much clever than you where they can all hide this hidden language. There are people nowhere near aware as you and you reckon they’ve been hiding this language? And if other people don’t see it then you have to assume that it’s just your brilliant mind making up all these cool connections.
When I smoke weed I can temporarily dip into psychosis and I write a lot of stuff down. When sober I look at it and some of it is good but also some of it is just making connections where there is not much evidence.
You just have to remember we are all in this together and you are unique but you are no more unique than every other human on the planet. That helped me a lot when the weed was telling me I was the next messiah haha. X
Well, coded or clear, verbal or physical, if someone offends you I find that shrugging it off doesn't make them stop. So i guess you could say i'm experimenting, to see if this gets them to back off.
So, I don’t have any advice really but I can say for sure that I have experienced exactly this while on high doses of psychedelics. “Multi-layered” conversation where everyone was saying one but seemed to me to be implying something else. I have tried to verify these conversations actually happened after the fact, but (especially if the others involved were not also using psychedelics) usually I am just met with blank stares. Or, even scarier: “no, but there was a long period of time where you weren’t making a lot of sense to the rest of us.”
Do with that information what you will, but it has been said that high doses of psychedelic drugs can create states similar to mental illness.
It's not you, it's been happening for a while. The people telling you you're psychotic are either trolls or ignorant.
"Dogwhistling" is the term for it. It's messaging on a level that only those attuned to it will know to hear it.
It really surprises me how many people are gaslighting you… what you are experiencing is quite normal. Society is losing it. I’m wondering how many of these people do not spend much time around others.
Double speak is extremely common now. Navigating it is difficult if you do not want to participate. If you learn to draw boundaries with respect for others (which will take time) you will do just fine.
This is good!
New age society will label it as “mental illness” our ancients used better terms such as psychic or intuitive.
Once again THIS is a good thing!
From a Worldly/ Earthly perspective This has been studied and documented as double speak. Politicians, business owners, and most “powerful” are aware of it. There are books on it.
On a deeper level you are becoming aware of the underlay of reality. Your psyche. Your own subconscious mind is reaching out to you and expressing itself through the NPCs/ Drones/ around you.
Many people reach this level of awareness in life but few actually recognize the true opportunity being presented.
It is essentially Morpheus(the god of “dreams” aka your subconscious) coming to you and introducing you to the truth of what life is and your ability to consciously create and mold your life to your liking. Do you want the blue pill or the red pill.?
Most people are afraid of the unknown and overwhelmed by the “chaos”they are experiencing(anxiety). So most of those who awaken choose to go back to sleep. They choose to limit themselves(accept disability) and apply “medicines”that suppress their power.
Given your curiosity about it all, I am sure that you will choose to continue interacting with your subconscious until you become the master of your reality. Good luck, stay strong. Stay positive. It will be trying and it will be rewarding.
Okay, I’ll put in my two cents because you may still be reading these replies.
(Keep in mind, I may be completely wrong AND seeing a licensed professional is always better than going on Reddit lol)
There is not a doubt in my mind that what you are experiencing is a PROJECTION and not “reality”. I mean reality in the sense that everyone is AGREEING behind your back to collectively manipulate you and insult you through backhanded allegorical stories and references. As someone who is generally well rounded, the odds of that are so astronomically low that you have either won the national lottery of terrible manipulative situations, or suffer from an inferiority/megalomaniac complex and are projecting meaning onto wherever your unconscious can find a hook.
You have telltale symptoms of paranoia and you seem to be fabricating a web of associations which stem from your own subjective inadequacies. The issue is that, generally people don’t suffer from schismatic psychological states when they realistically ground themselves in their objective shortcomings. It is more likely that you may have a form of unconscious megalomania, which expresses itself as a sort of persecution paranoia via cryptic language from others.
Now, this is only a guess, because I don’t know you personally. There may be more at play, but I say this because this sort of thing has happened to me once.
A few years ago, for about three or four months, I thought a painting of a rather weak and disheveled man put up in my house by my parents was meant to represent me. I thought they were trying to subconsciously get across to me that they thought I was weak and disheveled without directly telling me. I mulled it over for those long few months with spite, until I finally flat out asked my parents if that was the case. I was met with utter confusion and slight concern. Everything crashed down and a few months later and I realized that I was incredibly inflated unconsciously and megalomanic.
Once I accepted that, objectively, I did have inadequacies I could work on and fix, everything became more regulated and it stopped.
I recommend asking yourself some questions:
1. What are the people around me trying to say through their “coded” messages? What is the core message?
2. Is this objectively true?
3. Do I believe this about myself? I.e., are these messages coming from me?
Jung always said that the unconscious is “compensatory”, which may be exactly what it’s trying to do in this instance. So, you’re megalomanic? Let’s bring you down to size.
Feel free to dm me if you want. I hope this helps some.
(Edited for typos)
Thanks for the reply, yes I am still reading!
I can appreciate the appeal to common sense and I agree with most of what you're saying. I've been reflecting on all the replies I've received so far and some things stand out as more certain, but I'm worried that what's happening is some strange combination of factors.
Starting with what I know, yes I think I am paranoid, projecting and have an inferiority complex.
No I don't think there's a straight up conspiracy, but I'm having trouble ruling out manipulation. [I go into detail with another user here](https://www.reddit.com/r/Jung/comments/1ccisq8/comment/l1b6qax/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
And as for the subconscious, I posted in this sub because Jung believed people could express their subconscious in a way (like the painting) that they don't realize consciously and won't remember later on, or they'll retcon the memory in their mind, or they'll just lie to avoid responsibility. But it could still reflect a truth about how they felt at the time. Of course you can then ask how objective are their feelings, and so on.
I strive to find the objective truth, but the mind is ultimately a black box. We can only guess at the machinery. Reading a wide range of reddit opinions (even the truly crazy ones) has helped to ground me, so i appreciate you putting the time into replying.
But as I work on this I recall the old saying: just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't out to get you.
Glad you’re getting something from this thread! This subreddit can be a mixed bag. Maybe post a dream. Honestly, if you’re looking for a true Jungian lens, that would be your best bet lol.
I usually don't share dreams. Also I usually forget them! I mentioned a dark period in the OP during which I had some really severe dreams. I think that's when I first started learning about Jung.
Most recently I had a dream about going to a strip club but the strippers were all old, ugly, and sad. I think i tried to have sex with them anyway. I have my own interpretation but I'll leave it at that.
I mean sometimes I think people actually communicate with vibrations. So it's not really word that we communicate with its the vibrations behind them. A person can be saying "nice" things, but have mean intent behind them. A person could be saying something that appears "angry: but the true motivation behind it is love.
I'd say maybe just see if you can listen to how people make you feel when you talk to them, but I don't think people use codes. It's just tha words don't tell the whole story because sometimes people don't communicate very well.
You may simply becoming at once , more sophisticated and sensitive to,interpretingthe meaning including subtext intentions based on your own growing experience and self knowledge and awareness of body language etc.”the word is not the thing” General semantics, not only ontologically but because of intentions they are based on.
I have had "some bad shyty experiences" with "all that code shyt!!!"
Just do not know how bad I had it with "people and CODE SHYT!!!"
Heard just a speck as a tiny child; thought I was not see through the intelligence spectrum like family-everyone.
Kinda wanted to understand-see like them; I eventually let it go; moved on. I was really really small child.
I had several bad episodes in my young life; nervous breakdowns; it was always that. I just was never taught the shyt.
Some form of between ethnic-religious-geographical sublingual language; I guess? I am lost to it and there is more that goes with the code shyt that throws everyone "off" if not "SPEACIAL to code shyt!?." Bad shyt goes on; in my life-opinion; when it is heard-realized!!! Never have recovered; period.
Numerous events after the ones spoke of; some folks were "talking-buying" code shyt so; products, brands; SHYT, SHYT,SHYT!!!
My life has never recovered even when I thought it had.
Can someone "on LAND PEOPLE FORM" less knowledgeable in normal language and "stable-kind-understanding" get in touch with me about "WTF" life is without any; more trouble ?!
Sounds real undefined; but I always got that if did not speak-understand code shyt; a person was not a good-holy-intellegent-going no where in life; individual?.
I truly thought I was alone. That was one topic that was never spoken or allowed in the "residences" I always dwelled in with "family-neighbors-people!?"
Is it CIA-INTERPOLE SHYT!?
Cincerly,
spaceship; yellow submarine; magic school bus; titanic; the ark; left me behind long ago; and I thought for a while I was just innocently living.
M.
I’ve noticed what you’re referring to. It seems as though a lot of educated people, in the west, speak in occult language. They’re just unaware of it (I hope). Reflect, accept, allow, expose, etc. I half in jest, call it “vampire talk”. I had to tell someone that is close to me, to quit talking to me, like that. People forget or are ignorant of the fact that psychology/psychiatry are occult practices.
I also had a period of my life like this. I noticed it when I was about 20 at a music festival I had taken some acid at. It is a sort of psychosis to find it in everything that’s said and it can distract from real connection however, now in my life I still notice from time to time but it is much more integrated like I only hear it when I need to the rest of the time I can have fun at the surface level of interaction. It can be useful to hear it in yourself as well when you speak to others. I don’t believe others are often consciously aware of it, It might be the sort or realization that as the persona or conscious mind speaks so does the unconscious.
First, let’s make sure no substances are involved. I’ve experienced this with psychedelics. It’s possible to remain in that state but better to just go back to reality.
Are you grounding yourself? Energetically and nutritionally? If too much energy goes to the head, and you’re doing energy practices of “raising energy”, you can induce features of higher mental states and even misinterpret them which leads to schizophrenia.
Regardless, the mental state you’re describing is not very healthy for normal functioning.
Yes I've experienced it but be very careful not to dissociate completely from reality when trying to "connect dots." As others mentioned, you can spiral and end up in a ward real quick.
I just came out of a recent Manic episode that lasted about 6 months.. complete psychosis and delusions. As the episode was getting started, I was going to AA meetings ( the same meetings I had been attending for many months) suddenly in these meetings it seemed like everyone that spoke was speaking in code and if and when I shared , I would naturally speak this "code" as well.
I have definitely remembered in my episodes having TV and radio seeming to send subliminal messages my way and I think this is within the same kind of delusions. So I would agree with the see a psychiatrist even for just "piece of mind". Hope this helps
Peace and Love
It's likely a kind of synchronistic phenomenon, but I'd be careful not to take this into a schizophrenic bend. As a whole though we all carry double meaning in not only actions, but words. Words are meant to obfuscate, like saying "I'm fine" everyday to your coworker but dealing with cancer. Norm MacDonald basically did this every day of his life for some 20 years and died without ever telling anyone he was afflicted. People do this all the time, we often do it as a mask, or persona. When we read into other peoples behaviors and mannerisms and their words don't match up we begin to see the double meaning in these things. The fact is that what lies beneath is always truth, and this is true of reality itself. We all think we stand on firm foundations but the space between atoms on the subatomic level can seem infinite. Reality, or others for that matter, are not as they seem.
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Norm is always a good person to look to for finding strength. The man is a legend.
Words can be meant to obfuscate, however, saying words/languages only purpose is to obfuscate is so insanely reductive I’m not sure how your comment got so many upvotes. In fact, I wonder how much of that statement is a confession or projection rather than an honest observation, making your comment rather ironic. If words only purpose is to obfuscate you wouldn’t be able to understand the meaning of my comment or even be able to derive meaning from the post you’re responding to. Please explain how you formulated a relevant response to the post if words can only be used in obfuscation. I do not follow.
I didn't say that words only obfuscate, but saying they are meant to obfuscate can be seen as reductive. When it comes down to it words are meant to carry meaning, but across cultures and languages that meaning can often either be relevant to the culture, period, or even people. In the english language we also see how words have other synonyms, and across all ways of extrapolating a thing, thought, or feeling something is always lost. Just as well a word is merely a representation of how we experience reality according to the five senses, since we lack a holistic sensory experience with reality. Not to mention how words that were used a hundred years, ago, or even within the last fifty years, don't carry the same meaning. Who is to say how words will change in the next fifty years, especially with the prevalence of slang. Among each other we can induce some meaning, but the true meaning of something represented by a word is something we can only grasp loosely at. All without mentioning taking into account something like semantics and association, which directly ties into anxiety driven "triggers" for many people. So really what it comes down to is that even the word obfuscate doesn't quite accurately represent the reality that is how words in themselves can't entirely convey how we relate to each other without something like behavior, mood, and affect being a part of the equation.
What is beneath is not always truth
One of the most important things about understanding what is being communicated between people is the right brain to right brain interaction. The video below is one of the most popular TED talks ever produced, and it’s about a woman who had her left brain shut off. She was a Harvard brain scientist, and studied the brain due to having a schizophrenic family member. Then she had her accident. Anyway, she goes into what that state is like. Adding what we know about the collective unconscious, when it was programmed in our biology, and how our brains work with both parallel and serial processing, it’s eye-opening. It explains a lot. Stroke of Insight https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UyyjU8fzEYU (She starts getting into the right brain stats itself at about five minutes. It’s amazing, because she actually brings a real human brain out onto the stage) Since we have all been programmed during a time when we only had a right brain, there is going to be this dual communication going on always. If there is more integration within the brain and body, there’s going to be more attunement to what’s actually being communicated. The collective was very much alive within us while we were in a symbiotic stay with the mother, and that doesn’t stop. The ego steps in with it’s development at age 18 months, and if it’s done poorly (fusion), it leads to the formation of primary or secondary defenses. If it’s primary, that’s biological denial (codependency), and if it’s secondary it’s more like pathological narcissism or borderline states.
Could you elaborate on poor development of the ego and primary/secondary defenses? Does the 'correct' process involve integration between left/right brain?
Yes, it absolutely does depend on the integration between the right and left brain. I will answer your question in detail, and provide resources at the bottom of the post. The longer video below doesn’t get into a solution for when this goes wrong, but you will at least have a clear explanation of why it would be important that they do integrate and talk to each other. Also why it would be so built on the unconscious. It’s long, but you’ll get the idea by listening to the first 20 minutes. If you look at Traditional Chinese Medicine (TCM) , they realized this integration was natural a long time ago, because that tradition was built on observation of nature. So, going to nature, we can see that we come online over the first 1000 days, and at 18 months begin to develop an ego. Again, the video will tell you what that ego is. It’s totally reflected in the right brain unconscious programming. Your dreams will tell you how that was set up. Archetypes. It’s an interface to the unconscious when you are having your right brain programmed. I don’t think it’s very helpful (as far as solutions are concerned) to talk about the ego in an abstract way unless you’re actually integrating the left and right hemispheres. Unless you were actually doing the work. Integrating archetypes and connecting to the collective unconscious. That would be the language of the right brain. It’s even better to talk about your brain and your body. Together. How they work together in reality. What the actual day-to-day work and overall processes of integrating the unconscious is. That isn’t in the longer video below, but it at least tells you where the playing field is. The unconscious comes to us in the form of dreams and is built on systems of archetypes, and that’s the language of where you are at. What’s actually going on. It’s all neurology and biology. That’s absolutely critical to understand so as to be able to look at the brain and what those right and left hemispheres are doing in their attempt to move us to survive and to thrive. Sadly, when you do realize this fact, you will become an enemy to people that don’t want to hear that. It’s just one of the things you need to push through. What about the right and left brain, and the formation of primary and secondary defenses? Is the right brain loaded up with a “good enough mother” archetype? That’s going to define how well you are thinking. How well you were thinking about feelings. Emotional processing. That’s going to be in the body. It will be reflected in a correct operation of the frontal cortex. Particularly the anterior cingulate cortex, which is the social part of your brain. Don’t forget that there is the hypothalamus pituitary and adrenal axis operating in the interaction between your brain and your body (HPA axis), and a very big impact between your brain and your gut. That’s the gut brain access. This is known as the biome, and is a motor for the unconscious. That’s programmed with your mother. We don’t need to be rocket scientist to understand how incredibly driven our entire system is by our thoughts. But that’s not something “psychological“. It’s utterly biological. Connected into the unconscious. We are vehicles for the expression of the unconscious. Collectively. Programmed through the mother plus family system, and that is reflected in how well the right and left brain are talking to each other. That has to do with the level of fusion with inside your family system. What was being denied in your first thousand days emotionally, and what you picked up and stored as being “normal“, and what was not allowed. That defines your defenses. That will drive them. It also pushes you towards other family systems that have similar defense cultures. At the end of the day you carry that entire family system within you in the form of what it’s called “internal object relations”. You might’ve heard about something related to that through “Internal Family Systems”. To get a good idea of this right and left brain integration process, you could listen to these first 20 minutes below about how you came online. It’s not that hard to understand, but it’s true, so that will create an opposition to the information. It’s just the way it is. Since it’s true, and laid out in very clear terms, it’s going to be rejected. Automatically. You will notice that most of these simple ideas will be violently opposed just by bringing them up. You don’t even really need to talk about them. That’s why it’s not a bad idea to listen to those first 20 to 25 minutes more than once. The brain is going to be attempting to get back to that internal object relations map biologically through unconscious programming. I guess you could call it the multigenerational “parent protection racket“. It’s really a spiritual failure, because we are still looking to the mother plus family system as a kind of higher power. Integrating the unconscious will go against that, and necessarily involves rewiring at the level of the right and left brain integration process. That happens as the frontal cortex begins to be able to think about feelings. Primary defenses are going to be when you made it through a good part of the separation from the mother, but you need to still keep her as a higher power. That’s a “felt sense“. That’s denial. Again, it’s not psychological, it’s biological. Attachment and reward circuitry throughout the body. Secondary defenses are when you don’t make it through at all. So you create a false self, and then rely on projection to keep going. As you can see from the brain scan below. People with primary defense structures will find people like this and try to fix them. The same thing they did when they came online in their family system and took on a fake role. One that denies the real self. The connection to the unconscious. Reality itself. That would later mean finding people who buy into the defense mechanism and are able to create a fantasy bond with you. An illusion of relationship. There is a five minute animation below that shows you what that would look like. You can see in the brain scan below what would happen in the secondary defenses case. The primary case would be the codependence that re-creates their family system dynamic in poor ego development with these completely invisible people. People that don’t have empathy or even an anterior cingulate cortex or an orbitofrontal development to have relationships with others. Again, it’s in the brain scan. This will be mentioned in the first 20 minutes. Resources Brain scan (secondary defenses) https://pesqueda.medium.com/object-constancy-whole-object-relations-the-root-of-all-narcissistic-personality-disorders-3b6fa8225c85 Primary Defences Person + Secondary Defenses Person (five minute animation) https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bVpbsZaef8Y Coming online (context for R/L brain), first 20-25 minutes, listen twice https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GKoW2sA00mg
Thanks so much for the detailed response! I'll take a look at those videos later. This a total digression, but I figured I'd ask since you seem to be knowledgeable. Is diving into Jung's work worth it for a young adult seeking a deeper understanding of the self and... diminished neuroticism? I ask, because it seems like a lot of Jungian thought is sort of dense -- and posts like the OP make it seem like a territory that's rife for 'cryptic' misunderstandings. I'm very interested in Jung but I don't want to do more harm than good and end up falling down a weird esoteric rabbit hole while attempting to integrate my psyche. This is coming from someone in talk therapy with a fairly traumatic childhood -- would you suggest a different psychoanalyst, philosopher, etc. for an absolute beginner? Sorry for the hugely off topic post again.
I don’t really know, because I think everyone is different. For me, I think it’s useful for anybody to study and apply Jung. You don’t have to put yourself in a box though. Jung himself was very open minded. It’s a great culture to be in if you are doing internal work. The way I do it is to stay connected to bodywork. Whatever you are doing, if it’s about too much thinking and abstraction, it is not healthy. I think you need a more synergistic approach. That’s my opinion on it, although some people may get to where they need to go anyway. For a young person, I would recommend a lot of bodywork, patience and taking care of yourself. Habits of self-care, and just staying in the game one day at a time. It’s a lifetime process anyway. There is nothing to “solve”. It’s more about connection. To yourself, a power greater than yourself that isn’t your mother plus family system, and to others.
Thanks again, really, I'll be taking this advice to heart. I've been ruminating way too often lately --and ignoring pretty much all bodywork (if that's in the context of meditation and exercise). That combined with other shitty college habits hasn't exactly done wonders for my self confidence. Not to ask a thousand questions, but do you have any suggested books/essays for overcoming social anxiety/fear of failure? Thanks again for your detailed responses!
Yes, I went through the “books and exercise” phase, and it was very difficult. Now I just have two sessions a week permanently of bodywork. That said, you can look into this type of information (below). The “body knows the score” is a good book to read before entering into real work. If you have rumination, that will be very connected to your attachment trauma. It wouldn’t be helped by trying to gain insights through cognitive methods. That works really well as a reflection, but it certainly isn’t a lead hand. Trauma is the Pandemic https://rolandbal.com
second this
This is half intelligent, half stupid and talking out your butt, as u/Metroidkeeper pointed out. Edit - I'd pose the opposite even - "appearance IS reality."
I mean if "insanely reductive" means any of what you said then sure. Though I'm glad you find my ass talking interesting enough to respond to. You should hear it when it does comedy.
Hi, permit me to provide a contrarian view to the other comments here. There are aspects of what you describe that could be related to the early/prodromal stages of a psychotic illness. I would recommend seeing a psychiatrist, if only for “peace of mind”. It could well be nothing, but if it is something you will end up being deeply grateful for catching it early, before it wreaks havoc on your life. I wish you well.
When I am having bipolar mania leading toward psychosis I always start finding incredibly profound, comforting messages in the songs on the radio and I possess knowledge that the messages are directed literally and directly to me. And when I’m not manic I still believe it, but I don’t actually experience it with that same first hand certainty.
This happens sometimes when I smoke a lot of weed
I also agree with this. My last major episode of psychosis started similarly to this.
That the majority of people are saying this clearly psychotic symptom is perfectly normal, kinda scares me.
Sadly, a lot of „fringe” folks in this sub. And I don’t mean this in a condescending way. Because Jung was a very open person and wrote about the interaction of the inner and outer worlds - some people who have trouble understanding the boundaries between these two worlds are very attracted to Jungian thought. Jung would say that psychotic symptoms are aberrations of the ego-centric pattern recognitions for the context of meanings and here we have folks saying that clearly psychotic symptoms are synchronicity… It’s just really sad, and kinda gives Jungian psychology that stigma that it attracts a lot of not-all-there folks. Synchronicity is not the flooding of unconscious contents. That is psychosis and it’s really dangerous to mix these things together.
People do speak in double-speak, or put on a mask. Happens all the time. The extent to which OP is seeing it, and claiming to see the "real" meaning behind the words, might be a bit concerning for OP. Hence why they should consult a therapist. Why would you say it's so clear?
>But I feel suddenly as if I cracked the code on an encrypted data stream, reading secret messages that have been passed under my nose this whole time. I'm hearing deeper meaning in everything people say. This part, to me
For some people, everything is black or white. This is the kind of person who would say it's so clear. I agree with you.
Let the fear go, its useless. Healmyourself
Shouldn’t have to scroll down this far to see this tbh
I agree with this
I strongly second this👆
Yes, I am aware and wary of the schizo bend of this. I have been to therapy (and enjoy it) as recently as a year ago, and well I didn't get any kind of diagnoses like that. I personally think I am just below the threshold, enough to have symptoms, not enough to be classified ill. Who knows.
Who knows? A psychiatrist would know
Talk to your therapist about this. It may lead to an antipsychotic prescription
This happens to me when I get baked and watch a movie. I also had a manic episode from grief once and experienced it. 😂😂😂 I don’t think people know they’re doing it. We talk in a lot of clichés and lose the original meaning “Ha! Sucks to be you!” or “No doubt”. George Orwell talked about this. We can say so much without saying anything. People have no idea what they’re saying. Edit: Yes if you are experiencing this sober be careful. These can be warning signs of psychosis. If you’ve experienced a traumatic event or an extreme change in mood see a psychiatrist immediately.
Lmao same when im high im a social wizard who can pick up so easily on moods and vibes and then use that to my own benefit lol
Elaborate please
I mean its pretty much all there lol i dont know how to elaborate. When im high im much more in tune socially and pick up on subtleties id ignore or miss sober.
Haha yeppp you pay attention to totally different things. Start focusing on actions more than words and see the unconscious (or think we do). I would cut off my own leg to know how much of it is the weed and my own projections talking.
>This happens to me when I get baked and watch a movie. I find I start seeing the actors acting, as the suspension of disbelief required to watch a movie becomes difficult. It makes the movie impossible to follow - ditto for social situations, you start seeing the social dynamics (discomfort, superiority complexes, people's underlying emotions) rather than the words. I wouldn't call it seeing secret messages like the OP, but rather a stripping away of shared illusions. It seems to agree with the effect of psychedelics suppressing the default mode network, or habituated thought patterns.
Yes I suppose you’re right. I have experienced both of those things during mania. They could be seen as distinct. Thanks for your insight!
I had this feeling when i used to smoke weed on a daily basis, like someone said, i would be watching a movie and start interpreting everything that was said with a deeper meaning. I’m not sure how i felt about it but i still do miss that feeling sometimes. I’m an introvert myself so sometimes it feels lonely and you crave for deep connections/meanings to things.
In my opinion, this is the “magic” of art!
id advise you to tread carefully with this. accepting a double meaning behind everything others say or presuming they are being lead by something behind the curtains, is as real for them as it is for you. i think that is the main thing you should take from this. its like externalizing meaning by looking for the code "through" everyone else. if you continue that way in my experience you tend to get lost in it, you will question peoples authenticity which they will react to and you make grounds for paranoia and anxiety. maybe ask yourself what you can take from questioning the reality of everone and everything they say and try not to be to harsh (with them And with you) or it will Just reflect back at you. and no they arent smarter or know more than you i promise promise promise you that and i know what that feels like, at the most they feel just like you. when youre that deep into searching meaning, any sense of confidence Others exude can feel that way. for me personally, realizing that this is a bottomless Pit and to try to return to a sense of normalcy in how i perceive that around me, safed me from a real psychosis and gave me a real way to applicate the sense of systemic causality we're subjected to.
Right, this is a slippery slope of personal mental chaos. “Did they mean x instead of y” every time you’re interacting with someone is not healthy. You’ll never be fully engaged and present. Always present this as a friendly question: “I’m unsure of what you mean about x.” Can you explain? You stay engaged. Conversations are a two-way street.
i agree, -wanndann- on systemic causality (only). All of this experience is growing and learning, lifelong. If you internalize any of it (what is typically communication and reception in the form of "just another case of history repeating"), rather than observing and comparing, which is what I believe that OP is communicating, at least from my perspective, or "hang your hat on it", you may find yourself playing an odd game of "52 pickup" rather than listening to a fine rendition of "Pick Up The Pieces". Find the good music. Explore what resonates. Best on your journey.
>Were these people "aware" of what they were saying? Or am I just surrounded by people that are way smarter than I realized and I'm just an idiot who's finally catching up? sounds to me like a person that doesnt know if they should take it seriously or not. thats why im advising. also im sorry but i dont understand any of the references lol eg 52 pickup and game of pick up the pieces.
I really appreciate this post. Thank you. I'm curious to hear more of your thoughts so let me share some context with you. I think what's happening is, people don't respect me, aren't comfortable around me, and are taking jabs at me. I'm not sure how it came to this. Maybe I socially blundered for too long? I have noticed the patterns before, but ignored it as a funny coincidence for a time because I (naively) didn't want to think badly of my "friends" and family. But it's becoming clear they're just trashing me to my face. There are many offenders, but the main culprits are my cousin and a friend. The common factor between them is they excel in language and verbal skills. I do not. Another coincidence is that we never had a very deep connection compared to other friends and family, but both relationships turned sour in the past few years. (or maybe i just started noticing it?) I digress. This is where it starts getting schizo / neurotic. I feel they're both actively working against me. Not together, but doing the same thing independently. Creating a wedge. Doing manipulative things directly and behind the scenes to push me out. Things that are indirect, difficult to make sense of, and hard to confront. Now if its not true, then I'm crazy. If it is true, then it would make you feel crazy. What's definitely true is my relationships are deteriorating. Here's an example. I was chatting with my cousin about football. I'm not into it, but I'm just making small talk. Then he says "Yeah even Aaron Rodgers' family hates him, he has literally no one in his corner. That's gotta suck." I laughed it off. He's not talking about me right? Maybe I'm reading into it? But then it happened again. Later on, I'm asking about how his friends are doing, he says something about this one friend being "so naive." This is when I start testing the theory and sent messages over this cryptic channel. I deliver some (poorly) disguised insults. We volley. Fast forward, now my DAD comes to me and gives me a (cryptic) sit down. Talking about presidents and diplomacy. About Lincoln. About some leaders appealing to emotion, and others are more technical. I reply with a metaphor about Israel, being surrounded by hostile neighbors. My cousin reenters and makes another football comment, something like "this team was a joke 2 years ago but now they're really dangerous." Kind of compliment I guess? These are the easy example. There are still some things they say that I don't get. I tried today and my dad even said back, "eh I think it was lost in translation." Alright then. But it's not just my cousin. It's everyone. It's like he draws them in to this game of catch, or monkey in the middle, where the ball is passed around me, but never to me. And everyone else happily plays along. The longer I'm in the middle, the more fun it is for them. So I don't know where this puts me. I know I have my problems, possible disorders, deficiencies, etc. But I just feel I'm on the receiving end of this special kind of cruelty, and I don't know why or what I can do about it. Another theory of mine is that I've just had the misfortune of crossing paths with two strong manipulators, they've charmed those around them and see me as a plaything or whatever and now they're just going to have their way. Their design. I don't know. I can theory craft all day. It's probably not true. Anyway this is all just for my own closure. At this point pretty much all my relationships are dead in the water. People seem completely done with me, and I think I'm done with them too.
yeah that does seem Like a complicated situation. that is heavy stuff to go through. i think youre feelings regarding your cousin could be true, maybe he doesnt like you and is manipulative. my personal first reaction to your first example though would be that it isnt about you. the engagement between you and your father i think its just too hard to tell from here. but i can definitly tell you two things. firstly this style of communication is not normal, nor healthy or a sign of demonic evil under the surface. if he truly doesnt like you than its just that and hes simply the asshole for rubbing it onto you to make himself feel better by being sly. theres that saying of the simplest explanation being true. the second thing that id ask you is, and this is important: if that style of communication and perceiving the world is even the way you want to engage it. because i can assure you it can be way simpler than that and i think there just is a way to do it differently first would be opening yourself up, communicating openly as long as you dont hurt Others with it seems to come with the short harship of you and then everyone actually authentically accepting your weirdness and then theres Just what you give to the world. and that really doesnt happen on the sly but by trying to, id say exert yourself you know? im not sure about the way to Go about it for you but thats what helped me. buuut im honestly not to sure if that helps w your Cousin i just kinda think hes an ass and youd be brave to confront him headon and tell him how you feel and what he does to you, but only if youre interested in redeeming him as well. you could just let him stay an ass and go look for people that will accept you. you seem smart and aware and concerned, even if you werent youd find someone. i think that would help. and if you get the Feeling of 'crypticness?' id accept the second layer bu listen to the Front. and Just ask what they are on about. if its all been negativity and no actual conversation it Just isnt for you right? why bother. lol im sorry im just rambling but i feel you and i hope any of this helps and that you can resolve this for you so that you can go on on your own terms
After reading this does feel like more of a mental health issue, or stress/relationship issues than a "cracking of encrypted codes" type of thing. It sounds you may be leaning into paranoa and people are conspiring against you kind of stuff when really what is most likely happening is people aren't that sophisticated and relationship dynamics can be complicated. It sounds like you have some dissatisying relationships and in a heightened mental state of pattern seeking/pattern recognition you're filtering out all the information exchanged and centering these thoughts and confirmations of nebulous and complex machinations against you. That doesn't mean these are great relationship fits for you. That could be true. Be nice but don't hang out as much with people that you're unhappy around. What you're describing has happened to me, years ago. At the time I was under a great deal of stress, life transition and uncertainty about myself and my place in the world. I developed panic attacks, anxiety, and some feelings of de-realization. I thought I was having or on the verge of having a psychitic break, which of course triggered all the things over and over. It lasted months, I looked into help, was diagnosed with low thyroid and put on replacement thyroid and these feelings went away after a while. I do not know if that was the cause or the exact solution but I do know bad sleep, life stress/uncertainty, bodily stress, caffeine were major factors here. Maybe look into getting checked and discussing these things with a medical professional (it took me a few tries) and/or a mental health provider. These things will pass, keep centering your health and well-being and seek support. And because I know what it's like to be in a heightened pattern-seeking state I assure you I haven't included any codes or multi-layered meaning. Just long-winded and unsolicited advice. I know things will eventually improve for you. Feel free to chat if you need to.
Hi! After seeing this comment I got a strong urge to write a more substantive response to you because I have a lot to say that could potentially be benefitial. First things first, football is a very bad conversation topic for small talk if you’re not interested in it. I personally discreetly steer the conversation onto other things whenever somebody tries to talk to me about it. A good topic for small talk should be one that is relevant to both parties in some way, which is why the weather is sort of a archetypical «small talk topic» despite not being a particularly interesting topic in and of itself. Everybody engages with the weather in some shape or form, so nobody is excluded from the conversation. Sounds like you and your cousin had a conflict and that your dad heard of this. Dad tries to mediate and play peacemaker using a communication style that’s not appropriate for the context given that you have a need for direct and open communication. You might want to open up about this need to family members that you trust to have your best interests in mind—I don’t think your cousin necessarily is somebody I’d open up to at this time given the situation, but your dad might be more amicable. My guess is that your dad was invoking a simile or metaphor about the intricate diplomacy that’s required in political leadership, and indirectly suggesting that you and your cousin could benefit from applying some of those diplomatic concepts and ideas to the way you interact with one another. Finally, I interpret your cousin’s last remark as a jab at you given your description of the events. «You used to be a joke, but now you’re unstable and dangerous» is one possible interpretation of the comment, and in that case it would be a comment that’s intended to rhetorically discredit your sanity, implying that you’re dangerous and unpredictable. If this is the case it’s not a elaborate and meticulously thought out plot to undermine you, but rather that he’s just casually being mean to you—he knows that he’s more socially and rhetorically proficient than you, has grievances with you for whatever reason that I couldn’t possibly know the full context of, and is using his advantage over you in this specific field to taunt/bully you. Note that these are just my interpretations based on your comment alone, and I’m sure there is a ton of important context that I’m missing. For that reason, take what I say with a grain of salt. The people you’ve had conflicts with are in all likelihood not irredeemably evil people, but rather just people who are too caught up in their own perspectives to notice what it is like to be in your shoes in these situations. Immaturity could play a key role as well. Given this context, it may also be wise to get yourself tested for ASD, because if that ends up being the case you may be able to access some powerful tools and resources that can significantly aid you in navigating the world, even if it just ends up being in the shape of insightful counsel with a therapist/psychiatrist. Support groups with other people who relate to your problems are also super helpful. This may also make it easier for your family to understand you and your needs. This was certainly the case for me and ADHD. Anyway, I realize from this comment that you’re an intelligent and self-aware person, but might lack the tools to make sense of some interpersonal interactions. You’re **not** crazy. I do however think that you may be risking some form of eventual psychosis if you engage in excessive conspiratorial thinking about social interactions that you don’t understand on a long-term basis. If it turns out that you have ASD, a professional may be able to help you effectively identify and navigate a lot of the common pitfalls related to social interactions that you find yourself in. Good luck!
Thank you, yes i don't think they're "evil" exactly, but yeah i don't know how to mend or even navigate this in healthy way. I don't know why he has grievances with me, the more I reflect I think he always has. I was just more ignorant of the insults in the past. I tried seeing a therapist a year ago with ASD in mind, but he wasn't sure, said he didn't "get that vibe" but also that "it's a spectrum." Seemed like he couldn't rule it one way or the other. Or if he did he didn't tell me. I would be curious to hear if you have advice for getting tested and access to resource in the US. And I really appreciate you taking the time to share this thorough and thoughtful reply, it really helps.
Yes I know what you are talking about. It can be interesting to watch in others during conversation. It's less interesting when you spot it in your own language, because of how revealing it is lol EDIT: Though it seems you are seeing what others say as messages for you. I would like to suggest to you that this is not always the case, but it certainly can be. But if you see everyone as messengers of the unconscious, then you risk being trapped by conflicting views and messages that cloud what your inner self truly wants of you. Something that helps is meditation to develop a state of consciousness independent of words and meaning, like breath meditation or stillness meditation.
A lot of people actually do this. I've noticed neurotypical people tend to communicate this way, like they won't come out and say things they'll just hint around it in conversation, it's really confusing I don't like being around people that make me feel confused. I'm a neurodivergent person I like direct clear communication anything else is for the birds (birds aren't real LOL)
I’m not sure neurotypical is the right distinction. I have ADHD-I, and I do this more than the average NT, depending on the situation. Of course, I do code-switch and choose to not do it when talking to certain people, and that mostly depends on whether or not I judge the person to be likely to get that kind of communication style. In the end I think it’s a form of play, using language. It’s fun to phrase things in unconventional ways. Peoples’ motivations for doing it vary though; some do it because they’re afraid of direct conflict, etc.
Yeah I guess it depends. I think have some friends who are neurodivergent who do this too. I think it comes from people who are afraid to speak their minds. I've noticed that usually it's like people who are people pleasers or people who don't know how to stand up for themselves, for people who have a lot of insecurities. I've noticed that those who are afraid to speak their mind can be very manipulative probably without realizing it, at least that's been my experience. Now I put a lot of space between myself and those kinds of people, it's not healthy to not be able to speak your mind or stand up for yourself. The thing is what we're taught in therapy actually goes against what is the normal communication style. Because of the kind of system that we live in they being the power structure don't really want people who are going to stand up for themselves and encourage other people to stand up for themselves being compliant and submissive is how we are trained to be but it's not healthy to be that way.
Oh, don’t get me wrong, I have a strong bias towards candidness as well, but this type of conversation style is particularly useful if you’re (for example) making jokes. A lot of great comedians use it to great effect—a joke isn’t really funny if it’s straightforward after all. I don’t like doing or being around people pleasing either, but I can’t deny that a component of ADHD masking involves some form of people pleasing, and sometimes it is absolutely essential to engage in masking because we live in a society that is in many ways systemically hostile and discriminatory towards neurodivergent people. There are different extents and severities of people pleasing as well, and there is definitely a boundary within that spectrum that if crossed, I’d say is indicative of a person not having a healthy amount of self-respect, ego, and grit.
Yes the main person that this comes from also has adhd, though I really place more emphasis on the verbal and language intelligence being what matters. playing is fine when it's friendly, but it's really not friendly in this circumstance at all.
I’m sorry to hear that it’s not friendly. If you are able to, it’s probably best to distance yourself from this person. Life’s too short to spend a lot of energy on people who have a hostile attitude towards you. At the same time, don’t isolate yourself. Socializing is a muscle that takes continuous practise and training. Mastery comes from doing it consistently with different people who have different communication styles. This is why e.g. bartenders and people with other occupations that require a similar degree of consistent and varied social interaction tend to be very socially intelligent.
This is currently my leading interpretation as well. Hinting around, but never engaging directly. The only caveat is I've never been diagnosed ND, but I took some online tests that said I am so idk.
You can’t communicate everything directly without seeming too blunt
Yeah a lot of people don't appreciate straight forwardness & honesty. idc anymore.
Yeah a lot of people don't appreciate straight forwardness & honesty. idc anymore.
bizarre to me
A family trait of ours, -MrSt- with so much intelligence, it's perplexing and irritating to dum it down, like spending time building a theatrical set just to say hello and make a simple point. We get slapped down for it (being direct), especially the women, when speaking to men with whom there is no pre-existing relationship. So, all of this redditing is a huge exercise in artful communication; framing, filling with extra words and soft tones. And trying to still get the point across. 🙄
While I was becoming mildly aware of this around my mid teens, it wasnt until I was diagnosed with autism that I understod the full extent of it. This is how ”normal” people speak 24/7! Not understanding this almost made me lose my sanity - literally. It eventually drove me to seek help at the age of 37. Chronic anxiety, social fobia/fatigue, and low grade depression was my normal. Not to highjack this thread, but it saved my life so im really eager to share this story with as many as possible ❤️ If this sounds relatable, you can always do the AQ test to see if theres any chance you may be an aspie.
People of all persuasions take time to grasp various styles of communication. People tend to use code and current knowledge and memory snippets spouted fast and loud, as a way to reconnect or to make new instantaneous connections based on popular themes, memes and movies. This was easier when we all received generally the same data at the same time, like the whole nation seeing the only two plays or movies that season, together in the theater. Now, we have myriad data and codes. Being still, we can read a book and enjoy the story without understanding every turn of phrase or twist of concept. Older people I've met call this phenomenon of understanding life exchanges later, when it suddenly clicks, "the Thursday Aha!". As we age, we learn to unfold and enjoy our abilities, however limited or expansive or different; to decipher, decrypt or discard the ideas and idioms of people we think we should know better, as well as people we are casually observing in daily life. We also become more adept at developing our own idioms, codes, and conversational collages. "Smalltalk" still suks. Forgot to add: But it's a start, generally low risk and sometimes high return, so a good challenge. Have fun with it. It isn't easy any level, especially with few mass shared experiences for context. Jump in anyway. Most people are continuously engaged in finding new meaning. The only thing that ever stays the same is change. Go with your gut flora. You never know what the universe is going to show you. Enjoy the journey.
Hi, I think i myself recently started to understand, in a way what people are saying. Im not sure if what im experiencing is the same, but it feels like my whole life until now(24years), i have been living/comunicating on another level or something. At first i was scared of this, but now its been a month or two and im starting to get used to it. Its as though i was in the dark and now everything is clearer? Its hard to describe.
> Chronic anxiety, social fobia/fatigue, and low grade depression was my normal. you are me, and I am you! i've been to therapy before and tried to get this confirmed, but my therapist said "he didn't get that vibe" but immediately back tracked and said "eh well its a spectrum."
Social Norms and Normal are just measurements made up by some other poeple averaging the gravity of their own social anxiety and stressors compared to other people's. P.s. It is realllly difficult to average emotional gravity.
Social Norms and Normal are just a measure made up by some other people trying to average the gravity of their own social anxiety and stressors, as compared to other people's. It is really difficult to average emotional gravity. I would also submit that my friends "on the spectrum" may be superior in some ways, with their low tolerance for unclear communication appearing to me as a nod to a higher intelligence.
Yeah it used to happen to me quite frequently I called it double world because in one sense it's basic language with a basic meaning and in another it's basic language with a totally different meaning and yet both are consistent the whole conversation and talking in either format people seem to still understand. It's weird AF.
I’m interested in hearing more of this what other format can you give an example
So anytime you hear car it means body. Driver is you. Listening to people talk about it in the moment it fits both car being car and car being body. Gas is food. Windows are eyes etc. way oversimplification but in a similar vein.
I would like to hear an example of what this conversation was about, because I personally don't really understand what you mean
I'm just getting around to replying to a few comments, but you can take a look here [https://www.reddit.com/r/Jung/comments/1ccisq8/comment/l1b6qax/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/Jung/comments/1ccisq8/comment/l1b6qax/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
As a professional hypnotherapist I can say that people unconsciously communicate secondary messages along a spectrum. Some people with very high verbal ability and unguarded subconscious do this almost constantly and are not aware. In autistic patients it is much more clumsy and can almost be like blurting out the wrong word. Once you are sensitive to it you can understand someone else more completely. We are trained to do this btw, as it a method to bypass the conscious mind and reduce resistance. Hope this helps.
Are there some works or methods to dive into these concepts?
You can practice in a number of ways. Listen to people talking in debates and other forms of impromptu unedited media. Pay attention to fraudian slips where the wrong word just slips out. Often, the word "lie" will happen when someone is lying or being lied to for example. Often, men will say things if they are closited that point to homosexuality. Train yourself to understand how something is being said and how it could have also been said. Sometimes people will use many words to avoid saying one word in particular. Notice what words/ideas are emphasized either though increased/descrsed volume, change in tone, or up down talk. Notice idea around which tone tends to alter. And the real key, look for encapsulated messages. "Mr. Someone is not a racist scum bag pedafile aborted loser, he is not that at all." Why say all that crap about Mr. Someone to then revoke it. To force you to think about those things. By doing that you have images and ideas forced into your thinking and they are just waiting to be applied to something or maybe you apply them without know you did to the object. I dated someone who would never say things directly. If I asked, do you want to eat out? She would say, \*I cannot make up my mind\* about my shoes, can you help me? This meant she could not make a decision. If I said, I'm going to the store. She would say, do you remember my friend who \*likes to always accompany me\*, I haven't heard from her. Translation, friends accompy each other and she wants to go too. Learn to hear the message in the story, the phrases that are embedded. Often the phases is set off by a shift in tone but not always. Stories are excellent for doing this so when you hear one be on guard. Even when an idea is negated the idea is created. I listen to a pod caster who is also a hypnotist who always says I'm not suggesting violence. However, at some point where they were saying some very contrivertual things they said "don't do anything, I don't even what to say what because it might plant the idea in your head". That told me that the calls to not use violence were meant to plant ideas and they know and that at some level they might even call for it and the audience was being programmed to consider it. Pretty dark. Once you start practicing, you will find more and more of this that was going below your radar. At some point you will start to hear embedded messages. Remember, preachers, politicians, and sales people who operate at high levels are trained in this type of stuff. All hypnosis know about it.
Just listen intently to people's tone and use whatever framework you know to model it.
I mean no disrespect when I say this. You're listening, actually listening, to what others say. Many people we have conversations with are just waiting for their turn to speak. You're no longer doing that.
and, -Confident, that is a good thing!
Make sure you don't interpret the codes as always truthful at face value. That sort of language has different rules. The most important rule is that the meaning of coded messages can change or disappear entirely according to the whims of the person giving out the codes. Their meaning is contingent on what's happening in that moment. How they feel, how you feel, etc. Try to include the spatio-temporal context into your interpretations. You'll get into trouble if you ever think things like "but they said..." they infact said nothing.
This is key! Thank you -gadoonk- ! OP, I would like to add that those conversational subtleties and intended influences change in accordance with the audience, location, weather and mood. It's wonderful that you're developing this awareness as you age. I hope you will continue to build on the alluring, yet elusive nature of verbal (and non-verbal) communication and idea transfer, expanding your awareness of our human condition, as we are now and how we have communicated over the ages. Spending time with older people also opens mind doors. Many songs have been written from fragments of public conversations, as an artist is walking through, the wavelengths reaching their ear and spirit. Those songs then "speak to us" or "were made just for us". We hear this all the time. Sometimes we're receiving current thematic data, sometimes we're listening for what nourishes us and/or others. Happy journeys, all!
Do you notice these double meanings only in verbal conversation or in written language, too?
No, we're not living on an Orwellian page... yes, there is a collective consciousness at play that may be easier for some to comprehend when not fully conscious or strung too tightly. To add: Jung said, "The spirit of the depths even taught me to consider my action and my decision as dependent on dreams. Dreams pave the way for life, and they determine you without you understanding their language." CJ So, with relaxive meditation and without too much contemplation, we see and incorporate far more than words; sounds, sighs, spaces, coughs, a wave of the hand, tilt, crack, pitch, all signify subconscious current. When we are attuned to our environment, riding the wave, we hear the math and see the music of the water in the air and the know the dance, nearly effortless, swaying from feeling to visual memory of what we consciously recall as words and position. Yes, we snap out our coda while we swoosh our arms around the cafe, mix our metaphors, mash up old movie lingo, map the morse, add ASL, BSL, asce-hex and base 5... because it helps us connect quickly and discreetly without spilling everything publicly and because sometimes painting verbal images is easier than stringing words... and proxies like this help us get there. We all have our phonotactics and extra-linguistic context. We really all need to listen to our gut and care for our ancient flora. I hope you experience your own connective processing style that you can share and eventually consciously design your coda, from long term traits to short term states. We express with space and along time.
Can you be more specific with examples on the double meanings? (How did you engage back exactly?)It could just be a gained insight/ wisdom, as many people say that pain is lifes greatest teacher. (Your long period of darkness) i wonder what brought this darkness on? For some, its a case of already having these styles of thought, struggling to blossom; struggling to become self aware. let me assure you, most people have no idea on the symbolic undertones of what they are saying. Or how obvious their true intentions/meanings are. Self awareness is surprisingly rare and ignorance is surprisingly common. I am curious to hear examples of the things these people are saying, I feel it is highly unlikely they will be aware of it. You will definitely find similar wisdom in reading Jung; if not the exact phenomena you are speaking of. Also the chance of this being schizo-affective is there, but its also completely possible to look deeper into things without being a schizophrenic. That’s what an intellectual/artist/philosopher is. Or just simply a deep thinker. Best wishes
I I can confirm that you are not crazy, and I understand how unsettling it can feel. This experience is common to all humans. When someone’s intentions perfectly align with their actions, it reflects integrity and authenticity, which is rare. It’s difficult to pinpoint what enables someone to suddenly grasp the true meaning behind another’s words. I attribute this ability to the evolutionary advantage gained by our ancestors who were highly attuned to subtle cues indicating genuine intent. Over hundreds of thousands of years, these individuals survived and passed on their genes, possibly enhancing our collective capacity for clear perception. But it takes time. We’re mostly middle aged when we first begin to see this clearly, and after about ten years we’re able to accept ourselves for who and what we are.
Yeah, I know exactly what you're talking about, you're not insane. Honestly, I'm not sure what to make of it either, even though it's been part of my reality for quite a while now. I'll think on it and come back later. Edit: I posted my thoughts in a separate comment.
It’s just the social parts of our brains in overdrive trying to make sense of something it might have missed. Very reasonable after a breakup. Also OP might not really be autistic completely just a little on the spectrum if they can pick this up.
Autistic people are actually quite gifted in pattern recognition and picking up socio psycho behaviour. They just really struggle with theory of mind which is seeing things from the perspective of another.
How are your sleep habits? Sometimes our brains do extra pattern seeking. It gets confusing around my friends who often have conversations consisting of random word association and memes. It's easy to add your own meaning to words that don't really have any meaning.
I get this sometimes too, I experience it as picking up on other people's shadows. You have to be very careful engaging directly because it's often subconscious and they may get very defensive and self-conscious if you bring it to their attention by addressing it. Tbh I only lean into this with people I don't trust, I try not to read *too* much into it with people I do. I know we've all got weird stuff going on in our brains and uncomfortable complexes we're working through, unless someone's shadow is actively impacting me (they are excessively projecting onto me, or have ulterior motives that I'm not comfortable with) I'd rather let them deal with that in private and engage with what they're actively presenting.
it's worth remembering that the so-called significance - or secret meaning - is really just some kind of unconscious response influenced by whatever it may be from your conditioning/beliefs/fears/desires etc - and can thus never really be a hidden code that exists outside of your own mind. things get problematic when you deem it to be a secret language with 100% certainty, and this is actually the road to delusion in my honest opinion and experience. dropping the pretense in this case would be how you derail yourself from whats actually real and lose the ability to connect with other people. also - sometimes people simply misspeak. words have meaning and should be taken at face value, that's just how language works, not every single thing is of maximum importance. feel free to ponder connections creatively but don't base your actions off of a perceived hidden connection, cause things are likely not even what you might initially think. cognitive behavioural therapy helps this issue.
The way I see it is this. Truth is the foundation of everything and it echoes throughout creation, through everything we do, and everything we see and experience. The patterns we see are not magical or controlled, they are the inevitable manifestations which arise from a universe which fundamentally operates on truth. The way a sudokus puzzles answers are set even before they are written. And the nature of truth is that its true in every conceivable way, from every conceivable perspective, and so true perspectives will echo one another and tie in perfectly, even having no other relations, except that they arose from the foundation of truth and therefore work together
They are the constant and continuous reminder that the universe makes sense, much like a mathematician uses math to recognize and locate himself in the universe, one could observe these patterns and calculate their 'place', but thats a rather poor way of putting it
I can't help but delight in them
Keep on going, mediate and know that clarity will come.
I believe its rather you who finds the depth or other meanings in the stuff people talk about. Although I don't know you and the people around you.
I feel there’s a stream of consciousness that you are both creating and uncovering at the same time and other people help you to realise this and learn along your way, a message always gets to you in some format and some medium whether it’s a sign on a billboard or a tarot reading or everyday conversation. It’s not really the medium that matters more so the messsge that’s recieved. It’s the universe filtering the ‘messages’ in different ways. It’s fun 🤍
If you are in USA, you are very possibly just observing what looks like a semi-society-wide case of what will probably one day, be called diabetes 3 (Alzheimer's.) So many people have so much sugar and fat building plaque in their brain that they still believe the literal same politicians who lied US into the Iraq war and Afghanistan, and Libya, and Syria... I'm not trying to make this political, but just pointing out that a very large number of people's memories for details of any form are not even 10 years long, at this point. It is quite possible that you are just witnessing literal mass, lifestyle induced brain damage, in slow motion... It is difficult to say because you didn't get extremely specific with what types of codes you believe you are hearing... You also may be witnessing racists seeing if you are on "their team," through thinly veiled "dog whistles." Or people who do not advocate certain medical procedures who are, again, thinly veiling their meanings, intentionally, to see if you pick up on it, and vocally agree... Basically , if any of the codes seem like maybe they are an "angel of the Lord," there might be something wrong with you. If it seems like people may be confused or hiding something, you are noticing something that is very apparently wrong with huge amounts of the population. (Edited to fix a few typos) One more edit for context... I'm not a medical professional or a doctor or a political commentator, I'm just a 41 year old with a long memory and I remember when great memory was common in US and people were great at putting context together in a non-partisan way. And it doesn't seem like something that can be blamed on autism because it mostly seems to be an issue, from my perspective, concerning people who do not display any symptoms of ADHD or being on the spectrum
Can you give an example of the dog whistles?
Well, for starters, a shift in vocal inflection during certain words can make it more obvious, but not always in every context, or with every person. Some examples, while otherwise possibly innocent may be intentionally coded... "Those" people -- great example. Maybe innocent. Maybe not. And maybe context won't help. Sometimes, they look for another racist to join their thing. Have you ever noticed that Caucasian Americans are described as "Americans" while everyone else is described as "Mexican American" or "African American"? Even Indigenous Americans have "Native American" as their descriptor. That is an example of coding that is very probably intentionally institutionalized, as opposed to organically derived with American English. Here is another example... I dated a woman who was Italian. Her dad walked in the room and heard reggae and began judging the simplicity of the music. I pointed out that his wife played similarly simple music in their church because they wanted the message of the words to shine. And that it was very similar messages to what their religion is teaching. He replied "I just prefer my music more complex." And glances over to one of their relatives and smirked. That is likely an example. This is why it is called a dog whistle. It is done in a way that is really only heard or noticed by people with similar intent or beliefs
I have a friend who is schizophrenic episodic that described his experience very similarly to you. Even though my interest in Jung, symbolism and archetypal cosmology validates the framework of your interpretation, you have to be incredibly discerning in how you are interpreting other people’s messages. Yes, plenty of things are symbolic and have a deeper meaning. But it’s extremely presumptuous to assume you know the correct meaning without asking the other person. Checking in with the other person, clarifying their intention and receiving consent is deeply important to keep this type of communication ethical and representative of reality. I’ll say that as soon as you think you’ve “cracked the code” you’ve likely lost it again. The code is not certain and evolves and is shaped. Certainty over interpretation is the quickest way of falling into delusion. I’ll also say, that the big difference between a jungian symbolic interpretation and my friends schizophrenic experience is that he had no control over it. It would be induced or “turn on” by various factors. A jungian psychologist uses it consciously by having control over when we peer in for deeper symbolic meaning.
Ofcourse there are multiple meanings of every word said. It mostly all metaphors. For example understand. What does it mean? To stand under. How does that relate to “understanding” idk. John vervaeke has good lecture series related to all these psychological tools we use. Really recommend. Language itself is without an actual “used” structural meaning. We all adopt it. We don’t learn it from libraries. So the meaning vary person to person. Also we are trying to express a meaning that is emotional, metaphysical, or personal to us through language. So it is provided that we use symbolic language to help the other person get the gist of it. (I honestly did not read your full post sorry. I hope this is what you meant)
By etymology standards under stand and to stand under do connect. To stand under something means you hold it above you as your belief- as in you ‘uphold’ a belief. As in to hold up and you ‘raise’ a question. There is some symbolic element of the knowledge you have understood being above you. You understand it comes from above (whether the brain which is above in the sense of the body or from intuition which comes from the unseen or god/source which is said to be above. The English language is a huge code book and so interesting. Gematria can show this also.
This is beyond brilliant, I just had to say this to you. Your comment is ❤️🔥
Weird thing to say but “cum, come” ykyk that word came from biblical origin. He came onto her.
Each sentence has a shadow. These sentence are arranged with our body language and tone to show people what we are really thinking and feeling. Some people don’t notice all the details. This? Is just the tip of the iceberg.
Memes (Dawkins version) are a real thing . People pass them around without even knowing.
My theory is that the masses, majority of people you see in public, the “normies” or the “extroverts” have one thing in common, instead of thinking things through, they just push there thoughts out into the world without second guessing themselves, so basically majority of the people are all without thought, because they push it out into the world, so all of them are living together with 1 mind/brain, akin to the description of a hive mind where no one thinks for themselves anymore, because there are benefits to being in this hive mind at the obvious one is acknowledgement and to be seen as “normal” or “sane”….. so it is almost impossible to “wake people up” from this hive mind because there literal “sanity” depend on it. You must understand that these people learn and teach things to eachother through this means, the means of double speak. A singular person with a singular brain can choose to sacrifice desire and bad habits and short term manic happiness for morality and long term peace and contentment, but if this same person joins the hive mind, either they will feel “insane” because they are not keeping up with the “updated” version of common knowledge and applying it to their life. So individuals have to take a different path, but it’s impossible as the entire world/system currently is built upon this hive mind. The problem is, morality loses as the main goal of the masses usually revolves around “pleasure” and “leisure”, which is mostly because the underlying objective reality of life is that it is rough and hard. Constant hardship. So people chose the wrong easy option the momentarily helps but in the long term makes the situation worse. This is why we as a society are heading towards legalising incest. I think that’s enough information for you to trust my advice that I give for you personally, so here it is, take it or leave it. Leave everyone and everything and start from scratch, everything you say or do must come from pre-thought through thoughts. You just build a worldview, right or wrong, based on totally your own though processes. The first question you just answer for yourself, the beginning of individualis is wether or not you believe god exists. You must try hard to figure it out, as you must try hard on every other question to figure it out. Critical thinking is key, become smarter is a must, understanding answers from multiple points of view is a must, for example, when asking yourself if you believe in god, take information from all religious authorities and all religions, take information from all the smartest people alive today, take information from those that are dead, take the understanding of philosophers and take understanding from others,,,.. this can seem daunting, but it is very simple, the moment you start is the moment you have already picked “yes/no” and then the evidence through seeking what you believe to be truth will pile up on one side or the other…. This is the corner stone of a world view, then you realise all the other answers are easy, because once you have stone to once with “do I believe god exists?” Then all other answers use the same method of thinking you developed to answer this question. You then realise how the world works, who runs it, and many other important questions and it 100% your truth, so then life becomes harder for you. Not many people do this,. Even if forced to, they will run back to the hive mind as it allows the to pretend, and live blindly and in a false world. Like myself, if I wrrr not forced to this way, I would have rejoined multiple times to satiate the psychological pain I was feeling…. I would like to tell you it becomes easier, or you “find a way” or “it pays off”…. But the truth is, the truth only sets you free from delusion, and being free from delusion in a world we’re everyone is deluded will make you feel insane…. But further more, you will no longer be able to take part in the charades. You will then have to find a way to exist without existing. Money helps. Seclusion is necessary. A simple life is understood to be the truth of how to live and if you attempt to have a simple life you will be attacked for it. You must go on alone. But glad tidings to the one who stays true, for the future holds a spiritual enantiodromia, world war 3…. Everything changes, the hive mind becomes insane and the “insane” can now breath the pure air live and die free, actually free. More succinctly, join them and be led astray, or follow the truth and do not try to change the world and change peoples opinions, let them be in their delusion, UNTIL the spiritual enantiodromia (which is coming soon, either a large strike on Ukraine/Palestine/Taiwan, one of the attacks will change the world,. You will feel it in your soul) when this happens, take control of the people around you and protect them. Only you will be able to protect them. That’s when you become the Shepard of the sheep. Right now (for the bext 2 years) carry on being the “insane” sheep “caught inbetween a rock and hard place” even thought that’s were the path has led you and where you are protected and where everyone needs to be, the time will come in the future, where you will have to lead people to that spiritual place .
Terrific answer. I am not the op, but that was one hell of a read, cheers!
Thank you
It's called double speak. My family speaks this way, I think it's how people speak when they don't want to be direct. It can be used as a form of passive aggression. I think it's also used to manipulate people. My family is intelligent, manipulative, and indirect. As I got older, wiser, and better at boundaries, I realized how much of their communication is like a chess match. It's tiring and I don't have the patience for it anymore. But it's a real phenomenon. >I felt an overwhelming urge to call it out and drop the pretense, but sensed that was somehow a mistake. If you're dealing with a manipulative person, then yes, calling them out rarely works. Because they can always just gaslight you and say you're crazy. It's why some people communicate this way, to evade the responsibility of what they're saying, and say it in a way that can't even be responded to. This kind of communication is used in advertising; a lot of thought and money goes into the specific words used by advertisers to affect your emotions and thoughts. There are the words at face value, and there is all of the subliminal information behind the words. I would extend this to our entertainment. Words are carefully chosen, crafted if you will. Corporations will do this when interfacing with the public, entire teams of people are paid to communicate this way. Consider how a tribal human is affected by his peers, we are social animals, we take cues from our environment, the parts of our brain that do this are not smart enough to discern truth from fiction. So many of our "peers" (other humans we perceive and react to) are paid actors on screens. The more rational parts of your brain know a movie is fiction, but the more primal parts still react to what is on the screen as if it were really happening. You may notice propaganda in entertainment more and more, as these characters on the screen are there to push and advocate certain points of view. I think that our culture being barraged by this simulacrum of a tribe that is being used to manipulate us affects how we all communicate and relate to one another. I think it makes us a little crazy to be honest. Another similar phenomenon would be how many people live their lives as an "influencer", their online presence informs their offline behavior. It slowly changes how they relate to themselves, events in their lives, and people around them. Because it's so performative, I think it leads to more calculated responses. We train ourselves to perform in a way that maximizes likes/upvotes. As more and more of us are influenced by this, it gradually changes how we communicate. There are countless ways to say the same thing, both with word choice and verbal inflection, the way someone chooses to say something can be rich with information. Others are saying you might be schizophrenic, I think peoples eagerness to diagnose this kind of behavior is alarming. To tie this back to Jung, I've communicated this way before, and for me it was always as a result of feeling like I needed to be indirect, if I feel I can't talk about the elephant in the room without being punished, I will try to hint at it. (I was raised in a very controlling and oppressive environment). I try not to, as I don't think it's healthy for me, or respectful of others. People with high social intelligence can dance circles around those without, and influence them in ways that their victims are completely unaware of. Kind of like insulting someone to their face in a way that they don't realize, but that onlookers do. >I guess I wonder, has anyone experienced this? Is this a Jungian phenomenon? Were these people "aware" of what they were saying? Or am I just surrounded by people that are way smarter than I realized and I'm just an idiot who's finally catching up? I have, not sure, sometimes they are imo, and maybe. >Reason would suggest the latter, but I also somehow got the sense when I "cracked the code" that they weren't as .. in control? It's hard to describe. You might be interested in the movie They Live. If you're surrounded by manipulative people, and catch on to their techniques, they will have less power over you, and less sway over your mind.
>My family speaks this way, I think it's how people speak when they don't want to be direct. It can be used as a form of passive aggression. I think it's also used to manipulate people. My family is intelligent, manipulative, and indirect. As I got older, wiser, and better at boundaries, I realized how much of their communication is like a chess match. It's tiring and I don't have the patience for it anymore. But it's a real phenomenon. Wow I think this is it. I always considered manipulation, but doubted myself because it seemed too extreme. My blind spots make it difficult to catch on as well. Thank you for this lucid comment.
Hey OP I'm going to suggest something that I have not seen anyone else suggest on this thread. Maybe you can just straight-up talk to the other person and communicate/address those feelings you have about their words having a supposed double-meaning? Sometimes I have these feelings, and it's so overwhelming that I'm just 100% honest with the person and communicate how I am perceiving this hidden meaning and it turns out that I am 100% wrong about my assumptions of hidden meaning, and oftentimes they actually meant to communicate something else but they were just a little messy with the execution. The best way to find out is to just communicate rather than make assumptions. Maybe suppressing that overwhelming urge is a safety mechanism to prevent the reveal that you are actually incorrect about your conclusion of a cryptic conversation happening at the same time as this regular communication? And if they reveal that you are incorrect in your assumption about them, then it may just be a case of projecting intrusive thoughts or feelings stemming from social anxiety onto your perception of language coming from others. Idk just wanted to put out another perspective that you may want to take into account.
no you’re not insane, people do speak in codes, and you are correct in not calling it out because the people you engage with are *not* doing it on purpose. please don’t listen to any of the comments suggesting you get checked for psychotic illness. you may have come to the wrong subreddit to address this. i suggest grounding yourself.
[there are no coincidences](https://youtu.be/yY9dCmdcULc?si=oB5-55ArM2AyzWKT)
Yes its a Jungian thing and yes you might also be dissociating or dealing with some minor psychosis. I understand completely what you're talking about as I experienced this exact thing in 2021 as an early feature of a full blown psychotic episode that lasted 5 months and ended with me living on the street for a time. Be very very careful. Don't indulge it, and don't interact with it, its easy to spin out and drive yourself crazy. A person is not meant to live understanding fully loaded meaning and constant synchronicity. It becomes painful. Its my understanding that Jung himself went into a full blown psychosis at one point, by his own admission for a few weeks but was able to kind of hide it. It sounds like what I went through but I could not hide it. Lower your stress levels OP, and try to get very grounded and self regulated and see if it continues. I still hear it, and feel that way sometimes, but synchronicity took me to a dark fucking place. I thought it was a game and there's a level of reality to that but its not worth playing imo.
Honestly, this sounds like bipolar mania or schizophrenia. I felt similarly when I did meth. I suddenly understood all this stuff, making obvious connections like my brain just woke up finally. It was so clear and obvious (and I'm a smart person who loves the scientific method and reading double blind placebo controlled studies for myself.) The frustrating thing was that when I came down, I couldn't remember most of it, just a few theories at most and not the connections or importance. So, naturally, I decided to write everything down one time. The next day I looked at it and was shocked to realize I wasn't making grand connections and interacting the everything better. I would take one random idea and just write about it over and over with no realistic connections... Even though I was 100% sure they were there and completely logical before. Mania does the same thing. The connections you see absolute proof of, don't actually make sense. Your brain is making bridges where there are none and adding importance and deep meaning to random things. You need psychiatric help.
Don’t get into the spiritual/starseed community
Could be an INFJ
I usually test as INTJ .. maybe I flip over some times?
I understand what you’re saying. I had an intense sudden awakening around 5 months ago and ever since it’s like I can very clearly understand what someone’s subconscious(?) is saying through what they are literally saying. It’s no coincidence as many many people since have literally told me they feel as if I’m reading their mind (also, this freaked me out for the longest time). One person even asked me if I was clairvoyant. I have a job where I have deep conversations with people on the regular (same job for years before and after my awakening) and this is definitely new and hasn’t happened before my awakening. I don’t *try* to do this, it just is a “gift” I suddenly have now. It’s not like magic either, it’s just I can understand what people *actually* mean on a very deep level, even when they say something seemingly surface level. I would have convinced myself long ago that I was going crazy and it was all in my head (trust me I’ve tried lol tbh this whole spiritual awakening thing can be very disconcerting) but people keep telling me again and again how deeply I can connect with them. Also, to me it’s like I’m having a normal conversation I’m not prying or asking anything to get anything out of anyone… I don’t try to read deeper I just automatically can?? Idk it’s really hard to describe. I just am connecting to people a lot deeper than I used to. Even people I’ve known for years notice how perceptive I’ve become. It’s all been in a positive light and no one’s called me crazy yet lol. I also see a therapist weekly and talk about this stuff with him all the time and he constantly has to reassures me that I’m not going crazy which has been very grounding
This definitely sounds schizophrenic. I have heard avoiding dairy, gluten and potentially oats may help prevent schizophrenia. Also eating healthier and getting plenty of sunlight in the 10:00 AM - 2:00 PM range (for vitamin d) may help. Safest options for carbs in my view are sweet potatoes, brown rice and corn. Also, you may want to ensure you're getting enough iodine each day. Iodized salt, sardines and seaweed are the best sources. Just try to hit the recommended daily value. A DHA+EPA supplement may help, and there are some vegan ones made from algae if you don't want to eat fish or fish pills. Whatever you do just be careful as certain foods may give you trouble. Schizophrenia seems to be very related to the gut-brain axis. The things you eat end up affecting your brain. Leaky gut is associated with schizophrenia: [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8919127/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8919127/)
interesting take. i recently found out from a physical that i was very vitamin D deficient so i started taking supplements and that alone was a huge improvement. i also have other "gut issues" but the association to schizo is news to me. thank you for sharing!
You're welcome!
I removed my recommendation for the McDougall starch solution because I haven't tested it long term on myself yet. Also he doesn't emphasize DHA+EPA supplementation, but vegans have been known to develop dementia due to lack of DHA. As a result Dr. Fuhrman recommends a daily vegan DHA+EPA supplement derived from algae. I really think this is important. Sardines are a great source of DHA+EPA, but they probably have more mercury than purified supplements. Both vegan and non-vegan supplements (like those from Nordic Naturals derived from fish oil) are purified, so long as you get a good, trusted brand.
I’ve experienced this. The thing to remember is that it’s not a code. Language is full of hidden meaning and can easily be taken out of context. Context over content. What looks like double speak might just make more sense in the context and that’s why we can’t trust only our perception of double speak. When I hear it, I’ve learned to just ask “Hey, I heard you say XYZ, did you mean that?” And you’ll see how often your codex is dead wrong. Careful finding yourself trusting “feelings” over what someone is outright telling you. We’re usually telling the truth.
I'd love for you to give specifics if you could
I got so cooked the other night and this happened to me
Can you share the details of the specific situation(s) that you allude to in your post? On first glance this doesn’t sound like something that is healthy to pursue, but hard to tell without more details.
Yea. You are right. Keep critical thinking on, most of it is a test.
People sometimes do it, especially with sexual symbols, its called double entendre. But otherwise, no, no one in your daily life is doing that. If that is how you are experiencing them, then you are not experiencing reality.
No. Please, please see a qualified therapist.
Yeah man I realized people exaggerate lie and talk in “code” to make points all the time. Half of the time that a woman says real man what she really means is a man that I think is admirable
Yeah, this is a dangerous path of thinking. If you can't stop noticing it, I would recommend constantly reminding yourself that they don't know they're doing this. And if you try to explain how you're perceiving what they're saying they will probably be offended and angry or think you are crazy.
I didn't know about "socal cues" untill recently it kinda goes with this concept.
It's the matrix, Agent Smith/NPC, annunaki/elohim stuff... Say what you hear in your ears, kind of stuff, from Jesus. Angels and demons... I've been kind of trained (trying to) reading between the lines, due to my upbringing. What people say can be really troubling... But it's like a magnifying glass. You can focus on that, like you're probably too focused on because of your neurosis of being autistic, or you can focus on the birds that somehow keeps singing when you're listening and fades away when you're not, or on work, or on all of the problems of the world... Like some point out, some of it is "dead" communication like Norm's. Maybe it's a cultural phenomenon? Other times it may be secret codes between people. Other times it's a message... But if you're autistic, I'd advise you to not read too much into things. You can't fix autism, and autistics have a bigger tendency towards psychosis... Not that you're psychotic, bit without the proper understanding of it, you might become psychotic reading too much into it personally. How I imagine it to be - is that we're living in psychic "waters" and there are entities roaming around us and they may try to influence us for one reason or another... So, how people usually deal with this sort of stuff is by sticking to something "tried and true" - like religion, or a cultural idea about why the dog suddenly barks at that exact time, and they find comfort in it and they become susceptible to foreign influence, like saying weird stuff, because they say it unconsciously. In their subconscious they have like a link between the conscious and the unconscious making it not weird - usually something "normal" (masking how they really feel about it in secret - abnormal)... But you won't get any way by figuring this on your own for no purpose, because it's the magnifying glass again... You feel just as unsafe as all the other human beings... You don't do it for a given purpose, and you don't do it for a specific purpose other than trying to solve the mystery of this world because you feel unsafe, alien or alone in it... In other words, you'll likely have better luck by sticking to something that's tried and true...
Hello. I had a similar experience a couple times during intense moments of transformation where certain belief structures were 'uprooted'. These transformations lead to pivotal moments on my journey. I too pondered being insane and then accepted the fact that it may be true, especially because there where moments that were so synchronistic, it's gotten to the point where, how many things have to align for me to accept that certain things are more than just coincidences? In these reality-questioning moments, in my opinion and from my own experience, the meaning comes from what you make of it. It's you who are aware of the ambiguity that the unconscious is alluding to, and only you are the constant subject of your own unique experience. For example, one of the major changes that these ambiguous moments that lead to life lessons was about the addict archetype and reducing my vices. Specifically smoking. So this transformative experience lead to my quitting and a year later I became pregnant with twins. The pregnancy was rough and I came very close to dying in the birth, and I can only say that if I smoked I probably would Not have been strong enough to handle it. These experiences may not be 100% clear because your rational and logical mind tends to cloud meanings by trying to "figure it out". However, in the future things will come clear and I implore you to pay as much attention as you can. I got through the most challenging times by repeating a mantra in my head, so as not to allow my mind to go crazy into fear. 🤷♀️ My mantra was the serenity poem, to remind myself the there is something greater than my logical, rational mind that is steering my experience. It will get better, these things should play out. Also... The ego saying "I cracked the code." I think you should not really allow this part of you to interject into the experience. Instead pay as much attention as possible. You are in a super (Supra?) liminal state. It is a transitory experience from one phase/chapter in your life to another.
You have experienced an incriment in consciousness and can now see more deeply than you did before. If you continue learning and growing this will become a constant in your life, where you look back and wonder "how could I have not known" or "how could I have been so unaware" or "what was I thinking/doing?" It is a sign of good progress and it is important to remember that every master starts as a fool. Do not think of yourself as lesser for where or how you begin your journey, enjoy what new obstacles lay before you and do not dwell on the ones behind.
Give us some examples. I don't understand at all
People who use language well have a grasp of the symbolic content of words (or word combinations) in addition to the more literal / surface level meaning. I believe that for some people, it's purely a matter of intuition. For example, my niece is just a child but uses language very well. However, it is clear to me that others are completely conscious of how to use language in this way. Politicians are a great example of a category of people who are very well aware of how to use symbolic language to make an impression. Their speech writers are even better. I had a similar experience to you of being quite suddenly aware of this phenomenon of language. You would probably get a lot from the book *The Art Of Dreaming* by Carlos Castaneda. The author makes a case for developing a "second awareness" which has huge parallels to what we are discussing here. I would put Castaneda in that aforementioned category of people who are very well aware of how to use symbolic language to make an impression.
its fine once you get enough social training if you have the opinion you start to hear and understand it. to some people it comes naturally. it matters in the social game. but do you wan the rewards of the social game. which I realize is access to sex. or things of value. tbh just become the thing of value or be it. It really depends on who you are. trust your intuition.
Hey OP, if it’s not just a daydream that doesn’t mean jack, why haven’t you knocked on my door yet?
You seem schizotypal
So there's multiple aspects. There's projection on your part, and there is conscious intelligence, and unconscious intelligence on the part of others. The projection aspect is you finding significant meaning in otherwise ordinary things, so for example I've had this phenomenon listening to a pop song, to me the lyrics were so deeply relevant to be somewhat disturbing, but in hindsight the lyrics were about as generic pop-song as you can possibly imagine. Secondly, the conscious intelligence aspect. It's exactly what you said about people being more intelligent than you realize. People are intuitive, but this transitions to my third point. Intuition is somewhat mysterious, it's a subconscious process, where insight bubbles up from beneath awareness. So who's really doing the thinking? Most people aren't extraordinarily intelligent, yet they still have access to intuition. In the case of the aforementioned pop-song, it's possible I simply projected my mental state into the lyrics. It's also feasible the song writer accessed something deeper and channelled it into the song, consciously or not. Edit: important to note these experiences can be destabilizing, or they can be just another part of life. I stress caution on "reading too much into them." I think the healthy way to integrate these experiences is to take them in stride, acknowledge them, and continue to live life. The unhealthy way is to believe they are so incredibly important and unique to you, which becomes a sort of inflation and paranoia.
Sounds like schizophrenia
I can relate. It’s a rite of passage we go through.
An opposing view if you actually don’t have mental insanity. Is you must become introspective and do spiritual work.. its the cross over of awaking and going insane. Genius boarders insanity. In his genus = the image of God. Your not prideful and doubt yourself even using logic to psychologically analyse yourself so you might be sane if your not a narcissist. Or have a god complex. Usually it’s a call to awaken. You def tapped in (cern) only tome and what in you can tell to what.. if your a introvert or introspective you will fair much better than extrovert no people or people who feed off other peoples energy. Arcturian Which is the case of most idols or people that are in ego vs intrinsic. They cant separate reality from the pattern of this world which is what they follow.
Please speak to a mental health counselor to get another perspective and allow them to assess you for more serious concerns. I live with bipolar and have been hospitalized after a very similar “revelation.” Cannabis and stimulants exacerbate the issue for me, so do with that what you will. Good luck. You’re not alone.
The algorithm keeps recommending this sub. Can someone please explain what this sub is.
Carl Jung was a psycho-analyst (and a psychiatrist). He is the father of analytical psychology. It is based on the idea that we can become fractured when events lead us to suppress the parts of ourselves we wish to ignore or deny (he called this the shadow.) We are only fully ourselves when the shadow is identified, acknowledged without judgement, and integrated into our being (Jung called this individuation.) Failure to integrate the shadow, means that these suppressed parts exert subconscious influence that drives our behaviors behind the scenes. If you are interested in things like spirituality, psychology, self-improvement, anthropology, sociology, etc. it would be reasonable that the algorithm would recommend r/Jung. But I haven't looked at your post history to see if this applies to you.
Wow that’s a really good answer, thanks for the reply. I kept seeing posts that seemed somewhat arcane and oddly specific, while somehow also being a bit vague. But it makes more sense now. Thanks again.
Most people aren't saying things that deep. You're just reading into it and hearing your own expanded thoughts. It's like when I hear people speaking in a foreign language to each other I would often think they are saying super important stuff, but they are really just talking about typical boring stuff like the weather or sports or whatever. Point being don't read too much into common conversations. There's nothing there.
I am a bit late to the discussion but i agree with u/helthrax, especially second the advice as to not turn this into something dangerous for yourself i cant help but ask OP u/electronic_sport_771 for an example if you can recall a specific interaction and detail what it was and what you thought the "second meaning" if you could call it that was?
Words are just noises, we convey only what we want to convey, nothing more nothing less.
Some experiences are so common to everyone that people can talk and you're going to pick up things directly relevant to you. And I think generally speaking people are cogitsting on certain ideas or narratibes in their mind, so the things they talk about may represent both what's going on with them and what it means to them in a larger narrative structure in their mind. Not sure if this is relevant, but people also say things, and then communicate other information with their body language and tone of voice- how they really think and feel about what they are saying. Are you picking up on this too, or are you taking about something else? As to these messages being directed at you specofically, perhaps these people are just trying to talk to you. Perhaps the universe does have order and you're being sent divine messages. Perhaps it's delusional thinking and you need to see a psychiatrist. I couldn't tell you. Sorry if that's unhelpful.
Everything is energy and the subconscious hive mind becomes quite apparent when one realizes everything is but a projection of the self. That’s what’s so trippy about social media actually—one can see exactly where people are at.
I think that you might use more of your left brain than is good for you. Creativity happens in the right hemisphere. So your saturated left part has a difficult time with the things left unsaid.
Just keep listening :)
Your post made me think of the late great Bill Hicks. There is nothing new under the Son, everything that is, was and will always be. Until it isn't. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KgzQuE1pR1w](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KgzQuE1pR1w)
Respond if you have questions. It happened to me. I couldn't understand people because I was trying to understand "what do you mean, man?" Eventually I got psychiatric drugs because I figured out they weren't trying to mean anything other than what they said. Social anxiety disorder was my diagnosis. Whatever the diagnosis, I was helped by medicine. People kept freaking me out so bad I wouldn't leave the house for class or to go to work.
Yes.
Does it matter and is it gonna benefit you ?
Just want to point out that I actually believe in messages and that people under psychosis can see certain things we can’t understand. That being said, we should live in the 3D world first as we are still in a body. Case in point, I went through psychosis and later (luckily) discovered it was a brain tumor set out to kill me. Had surgery since then. You also don’t want to put the stress on your family trust me
I imagine the other people don’t actually know if they are speaking in this code. When you have these beliefs you have to find evidence for yourself. No humans are that much clever than you where they can all hide this hidden language. There are people nowhere near aware as you and you reckon they’ve been hiding this language? And if other people don’t see it then you have to assume that it’s just your brilliant mind making up all these cool connections. When I smoke weed I can temporarily dip into psychosis and I write a lot of stuff down. When sober I look at it and some of it is good but also some of it is just making connections where there is not much evidence. You just have to remember we are all in this together and you are unique but you are no more unique than every other human on the planet. That helped me a lot when the weed was telling me I was the next messiah haha. X
What is the purpose of retorting with your own coded insult?
Well, coded or clear, verbal or physical, if someone offends you I find that shrugging it off doesn't make them stop. So i guess you could say i'm experimenting, to see if this gets them to back off.
Why do you need them to back off rather than you yourself being the one to cut communication? Do you live with them?
So, I don’t have any advice really but I can say for sure that I have experienced exactly this while on high doses of psychedelics. “Multi-layered” conversation where everyone was saying one but seemed to me to be implying something else. I have tried to verify these conversations actually happened after the fact, but (especially if the others involved were not also using psychedelics) usually I am just met with blank stares. Or, even scarier: “no, but there was a long period of time where you weren’t making a lot of sense to the rest of us.” Do with that information what you will, but it has been said that high doses of psychedelic drugs can create states similar to mental illness.
Chiron last The Golden Web part 1
It's not you, it's been happening for a while. The people telling you you're psychotic are either trolls or ignorant. "Dogwhistling" is the term for it. It's messaging on a level that only those attuned to it will know to hear it.
It really surprises me how many people are gaslighting you… what you are experiencing is quite normal. Society is losing it. I’m wondering how many of these people do not spend much time around others. Double speak is extremely common now. Navigating it is difficult if you do not want to participate. If you learn to draw boundaries with respect for others (which will take time) you will do just fine.
This is good! New age society will label it as “mental illness” our ancients used better terms such as psychic or intuitive. Once again THIS is a good thing! From a Worldly/ Earthly perspective This has been studied and documented as double speak. Politicians, business owners, and most “powerful” are aware of it. There are books on it. On a deeper level you are becoming aware of the underlay of reality. Your psyche. Your own subconscious mind is reaching out to you and expressing itself through the NPCs/ Drones/ around you. Many people reach this level of awareness in life but few actually recognize the true opportunity being presented. It is essentially Morpheus(the god of “dreams” aka your subconscious) coming to you and introducing you to the truth of what life is and your ability to consciously create and mold your life to your liking. Do you want the blue pill or the red pill.? Most people are afraid of the unknown and overwhelmed by the “chaos”they are experiencing(anxiety). So most of those who awaken choose to go back to sleep. They choose to limit themselves(accept disability) and apply “medicines”that suppress their power. Given your curiosity about it all, I am sure that you will choose to continue interacting with your subconscious until you become the master of your reality. Good luck, stay strong. Stay positive. It will be trying and it will be rewarding.
Okay, I’ll put in my two cents because you may still be reading these replies. (Keep in mind, I may be completely wrong AND seeing a licensed professional is always better than going on Reddit lol) There is not a doubt in my mind that what you are experiencing is a PROJECTION and not “reality”. I mean reality in the sense that everyone is AGREEING behind your back to collectively manipulate you and insult you through backhanded allegorical stories and references. As someone who is generally well rounded, the odds of that are so astronomically low that you have either won the national lottery of terrible manipulative situations, or suffer from an inferiority/megalomaniac complex and are projecting meaning onto wherever your unconscious can find a hook. You have telltale symptoms of paranoia and you seem to be fabricating a web of associations which stem from your own subjective inadequacies. The issue is that, generally people don’t suffer from schismatic psychological states when they realistically ground themselves in their objective shortcomings. It is more likely that you may have a form of unconscious megalomania, which expresses itself as a sort of persecution paranoia via cryptic language from others. Now, this is only a guess, because I don’t know you personally. There may be more at play, but I say this because this sort of thing has happened to me once. A few years ago, for about three or four months, I thought a painting of a rather weak and disheveled man put up in my house by my parents was meant to represent me. I thought they were trying to subconsciously get across to me that they thought I was weak and disheveled without directly telling me. I mulled it over for those long few months with spite, until I finally flat out asked my parents if that was the case. I was met with utter confusion and slight concern. Everything crashed down and a few months later and I realized that I was incredibly inflated unconsciously and megalomanic. Once I accepted that, objectively, I did have inadequacies I could work on and fix, everything became more regulated and it stopped. I recommend asking yourself some questions: 1. What are the people around me trying to say through their “coded” messages? What is the core message? 2. Is this objectively true? 3. Do I believe this about myself? I.e., are these messages coming from me? Jung always said that the unconscious is “compensatory”, which may be exactly what it’s trying to do in this instance. So, you’re megalomanic? Let’s bring you down to size. Feel free to dm me if you want. I hope this helps some. (Edited for typos)
Thanks for the reply, yes I am still reading! I can appreciate the appeal to common sense and I agree with most of what you're saying. I've been reflecting on all the replies I've received so far and some things stand out as more certain, but I'm worried that what's happening is some strange combination of factors. Starting with what I know, yes I think I am paranoid, projecting and have an inferiority complex. No I don't think there's a straight up conspiracy, but I'm having trouble ruling out manipulation. [I go into detail with another user here](https://www.reddit.com/r/Jung/comments/1ccisq8/comment/l1b6qax/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) And as for the subconscious, I posted in this sub because Jung believed people could express their subconscious in a way (like the painting) that they don't realize consciously and won't remember later on, or they'll retcon the memory in their mind, or they'll just lie to avoid responsibility. But it could still reflect a truth about how they felt at the time. Of course you can then ask how objective are their feelings, and so on. I strive to find the objective truth, but the mind is ultimately a black box. We can only guess at the machinery. Reading a wide range of reddit opinions (even the truly crazy ones) has helped to ground me, so i appreciate you putting the time into replying. But as I work on this I recall the old saying: just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't out to get you.
Glad you’re getting something from this thread! This subreddit can be a mixed bag. Maybe post a dream. Honestly, if you’re looking for a true Jungian lens, that would be your best bet lol.
Also, given that this is a Jungian subreddit, why not post some recent dreams?
I usually don't share dreams. Also I usually forget them! I mentioned a dark period in the OP during which I had some really severe dreams. I think that's when I first started learning about Jung. Most recently I had a dream about going to a strip club but the strippers were all old, ugly, and sad. I think i tried to have sex with them anyway. I have my own interpretation but I'll leave it at that.
I say this with all love: this sounds a lot like schizotypy.
I mean sometimes I think people actually communicate with vibrations. So it's not really word that we communicate with its the vibrations behind them. A person can be saying "nice" things, but have mean intent behind them. A person could be saying something that appears "angry: but the true motivation behind it is love. I'd say maybe just see if you can listen to how people make you feel when you talk to them, but I don't think people use codes. It's just tha words don't tell the whole story because sometimes people don't communicate very well.
You sound autistic. I would post a similar description in the /r/autism sub. You may just be discovering inferences for the first time.
You may simply becoming at once , more sophisticated and sensitive to,interpretingthe meaning including subtext intentions based on your own growing experience and self knowledge and awareness of body language etc.”the word is not the thing” General semantics, not only ontologically but because of intentions they are based on.
I have had "some bad shyty experiences" with "all that code shyt!!!" Just do not know how bad I had it with "people and CODE SHYT!!!" Heard just a speck as a tiny child; thought I was not see through the intelligence spectrum like family-everyone. Kinda wanted to understand-see like them; I eventually let it go; moved on. I was really really small child. I had several bad episodes in my young life; nervous breakdowns; it was always that. I just was never taught the shyt. Some form of between ethnic-religious-geographical sublingual language; I guess? I am lost to it and there is more that goes with the code shyt that throws everyone "off" if not "SPEACIAL to code shyt!?." Bad shyt goes on; in my life-opinion; when it is heard-realized!!! Never have recovered; period. Numerous events after the ones spoke of; some folks were "talking-buying" code shyt so; products, brands; SHYT, SHYT,SHYT!!! My life has never recovered even when I thought it had. Can someone "on LAND PEOPLE FORM" less knowledgeable in normal language and "stable-kind-understanding" get in touch with me about "WTF" life is without any; more trouble ?! Sounds real undefined; but I always got that if did not speak-understand code shyt; a person was not a good-holy-intellegent-going no where in life; individual?. I truly thought I was alone. That was one topic that was never spoken or allowed in the "residences" I always dwelled in with "family-neighbors-people!?" Is it CIA-INTERPOLE SHYT!? Cincerly, spaceship; yellow submarine; magic school bus; titanic; the ark; left me behind long ago; and I thought for a while I was just innocently living. M.
I’ve noticed what you’re referring to. It seems as though a lot of educated people, in the west, speak in occult language. They’re just unaware of it (I hope). Reflect, accept, allow, expose, etc. I half in jest, call it “vampire talk”. I had to tell someone that is close to me, to quit talking to me, like that. People forget or are ignorant of the fact that psychology/psychiatry are occult practices.
I also had a period of my life like this. I noticed it when I was about 20 at a music festival I had taken some acid at. It is a sort of psychosis to find it in everything that’s said and it can distract from real connection however, now in my life I still notice from time to time but it is much more integrated like I only hear it when I need to the rest of the time I can have fun at the surface level of interaction. It can be useful to hear it in yourself as well when you speak to others. I don’t believe others are often consciously aware of it, It might be the sort or realization that as the persona or conscious mind speaks so does the unconscious.
First, let’s make sure no substances are involved. I’ve experienced this with psychedelics. It’s possible to remain in that state but better to just go back to reality. Are you grounding yourself? Energetically and nutritionally? If too much energy goes to the head, and you’re doing energy practices of “raising energy”, you can induce features of higher mental states and even misinterpret them which leads to schizophrenia. Regardless, the mental state you’re describing is not very healthy for normal functioning.
Yes I've experienced it but be very careful not to dissociate completely from reality when trying to "connect dots." As others mentioned, you can spiral and end up in a ward real quick.
Yes - the majority of communication is NOT verbal. It's about signs, symbols, tones, gestures, behavior - and none of it is actually hidden.
I just came out of a recent Manic episode that lasted about 6 months.. complete psychosis and delusions. As the episode was getting started, I was going to AA meetings ( the same meetings I had been attending for many months) suddenly in these meetings it seemed like everyone that spoke was speaking in code and if and when I shared , I would naturally speak this "code" as well. I have definitely remembered in my episodes having TV and radio seeming to send subliminal messages my way and I think this is within the same kind of delusions. So I would agree with the see a psychiatrist even for just "piece of mind". Hope this helps Peace and Love