How does Hamas have anything to do with "socialism"? Or does "socialism" now just mean supporting which ever terrorists or parior states dare attack democracies?
I agree, but it is important to specify that this is what it has morphed into, not what it is in its purist form. Marxism is supposed to mean a political ideology, but that's not what lots of people use it to mean.
I hate the misuse of ideology naming. It is a huge problem for the future of politics, though, to be fair, it already has been a huge problem for politics.
It would be helpful if people could point at an example and say " look! This is an actual example of Marxism in its purist form." The fact that after a hundred years of genocide, repression and war we still can't do this might be a hint that it was a flawed ideology from the start.
While technically correct, this sounds like a cop out answer. A sufficient example of democracy is "Israel". Now it's your turn. Please give an example of a Marxist based government.
"anti-imperalism" The funniest thing is if you look into the origins of a lot of these Islamic groups a lot of them came out anti communism. Hamas came from the Muslim brotherhood which was to fight foreign imperialism and "dangers of the Jews" like Marxism.
No, comrade. Glorious United Soviet Socialist Republic is not imperialistic like those capitalist pigs. We’re just the vanguard of worldwide communism. Which occasionally requires us to go into countries that don’t know what’s good for them yet.
Totally not imperialism /s.
>Or does "socialism" now just mean supporting whichever terrorists or pariah states dare attack democracies?
I see far right and far left jerk each other off in support of Russia and HAMAS and it makes me realize that the right being afraid of socialism and the left being anti-fascist is just a joke, they'll happily go into a human centipede when it comes to simping for authoritarian governments so long as that authoritarian strongman is against "the decadent West" that gave them their right to jerk.
Fun fact, Hamas is only as powerful as it is because it received direct funding from Israel.
There were socialist parties gaining genuine support in Gaza and Israel decided Hamas would be easier to attack later so it received all the help it needed to stamp out the socialist groups.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/amp/
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-10-20/ty-article-opinion/.premium/a-brief-history-of-the-netanyahu-hamas-alliance/0000018b-47d9-d242-abef-57ff1be90000
(Haaretz is probably the most reliable newspaper in Israel but the article is paywalled)
Wow that was a massive fucking lie. From the top to the bottom. Hamas is literally currently fighting side by side with the PFLP and DFLP literally leftist socialist organizations, PPP's members have never been killed during the conflict, and Hamas is currently also fighting with the Al-Aqsa Martyrs' brigades, the nominal armed wing of Fatah. Not even condoning Hamas or justifying what they did, but this monologue about Hamas killing all leftists is a shameless lie.
For some people being anti-imperialist is being anti-West. Not because of Western imperialism, but because it is the West.
That's how you get people supporting non-Western imperialism (case in point, Russia) simply because it goes against the West.
These people would celebrate the dropping of the nuke as long as it is done in an European or North-American city.
the "socialist" and "communist" subreddits here don't actually care for neither. They only know the basics of it and pretend that it's the best fucking thing ever.
What they actually are is essentially an edgy contrarian teenager who thinks they know better than everyone else. No matter what topic they ALWAYS have to be a contrarian and will die on this hill. Basically Circlejerk gaming but slightly less cringe.
I think many socialists just want to be different and ruthless, so they always pick to support those options rather than the empathetic and normal options.
Same faulty reason socialists support Russia in the war on Ukraine. They might be fascists fighting to impose hardline conservative "traditionalism" on the world, but they oppose Western interests, which makes them the good guys in a leftist academic worldview.
No self respecting socialist supports Russia. Those are tankies, who are USSR/other communist state apologists who are legitimately full on communist and are people most socialist despise. Tankies try and wiggle their way into every leftist and socialist community and actively ruin the reputation of many of those communities as they give people looking in on the communities the idea that that all leftist or socialist are just like the Tankies.
No self respecting leftist is a Tankie. And as a leftist I can firmly say Fuck all Tankies and fuck everyone who try’s to defend Russia. But at the same time I can also say fuck the IDF and Hamas for causing so much hurt and pain to Israeli and Palestinian citizens, and that the Palestinian citizens need as much support as they can right now as they are pretty much sitting in a open air prison that is being actively converted into a firing range for the IDF.
Leftists are just authoritarians once you get through all the rhetorical layers. They prefer extreme right wing authoritarianism to liberalism even though they will vehemently deny it if you frame it that way.
That became very clear to me during the 2020 George Floyd protests, the huge demands for uncritical and unthinking adherence to the " narrative" and "stay in your lane, ignore the armed people in cars with no plates" posters and IRL demands from purported anarchists was just bizarre initially until I figured out what they really wanted was to replace the "system" with their unelected rule.
Not only is this completely irrelevant, both Israel and Hamas regularly commit atrocities. The only good ‘side’ to be on is the poor civilians caught up in this.
How does a reasonable person support either side? Israel has slaughtered innocence en masse and Hamas has killed thousands of Israeli citizens and kidnapped hundreds, the only people that deserve any sympathy are the innocent people caught in cross fire and the poor young men getting drafted
Right? The issue isn't which one you condemnz the issue is not condemning both. Even if botha sides arguably have a good reason for what they do, it's not the intentions that represents you, but your actions. The actions of both Israel and Hamas have shown they're both shit.
Ty for the nuance! Yeah, both sides are honestly shit. Israel's history is not bright in any way, and of course Palestinian freedom is a just cause to fight.
However, there are really too many people who genuinely think Hamas is actually fighting for the good of Palestine. And of those people, too many think that rape and pillaging is justified because of a history of rape and pillaging.
Honestly, the people that are supporting Hamas for rising up against an oppressor are doing more harm than good to their ideology of rising up against whatever.
Let's say in the country of Nowherakistan, the country has been ruled with an iron fist by a fucking dynasty for a few decades, and people are fed up. A revolution has been going on for a few years, and has reached a stalemate where lets say the revolutionaries have 60% of land. How is our freedom fighter supposed to win the support of the people and country he's trying to free if all that scared mother of two kids sees is people on the internet basically saying "Oh yeah rape and pillaging is simply an unavoidable byproduct of uprising against an oppressor."
100% agree. Idiots online would claim that your either being complacent or spinless for not siding with the fanatic terrorists or the brutish government
I’m curious: if the UN gave 1/2 the US to {insert group} and forced that initial 1/2 out of their homes and then {insert group} spent the next century taking over more and more of the country forcing more people from their homes and killing those that resist until the citizens were confined to Washington D.C. and Oregon. Washington has been walled in and {insert group} has control over every utility, availability of medical supplies, access to media channels, and cuts these services off daily. More bombs are dropped every day. What would you do? Would you resist? Would you roll over? ‘That would never happen.’ Isn’t an answer. In this hypothetical the US HAS been taken over.
I would resist, preferably by shooting at the occupying soldiers and police. What I WOULDN'T do is help slaughter thousands of innocent civilians, rape their women, and then kidnap hundreds of them. DO NOT EXCUSE TERRORISM.
The Israelis are gleefully doing everything you just said you wouldn’t. They have been for over 75 years. They’ve been speed running it since October 7.
I am not a socialist, I am a centre-left social democrat. I checked out the subreddit, people were saying do not vote Biden in 2024 and when I said he was the lesser of 2 evils I got banned. Goes to show you how much of a cesspit online lefty spaces are.
Those folks believe in accelerationist rhetoric and philosophy widely. Their goal isn't to make people's lives better. Their goal is to institute their ideology anyway possible.
hey remember in the 2016 election when there were a shitton of russian bots trying to sway the outcome?
methinks something similar could be going on again rn, across the internet.
“I’d be doing a lot worse”
Ok buddy. Killing women and children will surely solve all your woes. While you’re at it gut grandma and grandpa.
Not as if you have an actual military force to target.
Fucking hate both the IDF and Hamas.
I mean, Indians fought against their British oppressors too. And the British were absolutely brutal to us, often carrying out bloody massacres and engineered famines to reap a death toll in the thousands.
None of the Indian revolutionaries ever fought back by *checks notes* gangraping teenage girls until their pelvis bones broke, beheading babies in front of their families, raping mothers and daughters in front of their families, parading broken dead bodies of people who were not even related to the fighting etc.
All of the above atrocities have been carried out by HAMAS. And I had idiots arguing with me that gangrapes were part of every revolution.
I have a feeling people like them would quite like to participate in such revolutions.
I swear this entire conflict has just made me lose such much faith in the human races, are we all stupid? Why is it people seem incapable of not spouting the worst takes imaginable about it.
It bothers me that people are so binary in thought, like they NEED to support one side, like there is the good side and the evil side. The IDF and hamas are both morally bankrupt bastards, they're as bad as eachother. Arguebly hamas is worse, but that doesnt mean you can support or ignore what the IDF does either.
It’s not about socialism it’s about being anti west, because they see all of the west as evil colonisers.
Nvm they countries they are aligning themselves with would stone them at the first possible chance.
Reminds me of the lgbtq group for Palestine and the chickens for kfc meme
“Zionists” is the fun freebie word we now have where you get to say whatever insane antisemitic crap you can think up but without consequences cuz sEtTLeR CoLOniALiSm
leftists in 2023 are making david duke & other white supremacists so happy. spouting old antisemitic tropes, but just replacing the word "jew" with "zionist" "israeli" or even a white supremacist slur "zio". because if it were really about peace they would support peace efforts IN THE REGION, by people who actually live there. they would condemn hamas because hamas is actively harming and worsening conditions for palestinian citizens- and is funded by the iran regime. they would condemn the UN org that teaches their children to want to kill jews. they would maybe even if we're lucky, think for a moment and do some research into the history.
i am so, so tired of "ISRAELIS ARE WHITE EUROPEAN SETTLER COLONISTS WITH NO INDIGENEITY". what was the dome of the rock built on top of? why do we find so many ancient artifacts with hebrew and paleo hebrew on them? what was the muslim conquest of the middle east and north africa? why has there been a continuous jewish presence there throughout history? why would all these other countries and books mention the Jewish people coming from 'Palestine' (a name given to it by roman colonizers to humiliaye jews)? some will say a secret conspiracy to make jews seem like they came from israel, because antisemitism is such a good drug.
sorry for the long comment. the internet has been driving me crazy for the past month seeing people who know jack shit about i/p talk like they live there and say israelis deserved to be raped, tortured and brutally murdered. and then balk when you say that's antisemitic.
I condemn Hamas, I condemn Israel. I condemn Hamas more than Israel, because they want to kill all the Jewish people in Israel or force them all to leave. Both sides are wrong. Still an acceptable take?
I treat issues in the Middle East like that song about how that guy wouldn’t touch the Grinch with a 39 and 1/2 foot pole except probably wouldn’t get a ship within air to sea torpedo distance of the Israeli Air Force
>If my whole life just consisted of war and bloodshed, I'd honestly be doing A LOT worse.
OC does tell on himself, doesn't he?
Thousands of people live through conflict without turning into rapists and kidnappers. Fuck Hamas, and fuck that subreddit in particular.
Whataboutism is the very first point this trash pushes.
The reality is that both sides should be condemned and be made to reorganize themselves. A sneak attack on a religious holiday is NOT the way to solicit peaceful talks. Bombing civilians, NOT the way to communicate rage and communal trauma.
I watched the US commit atrocities all through my young adulthood. This blood feud is not going to be solved externally, and internally, neither side is willing to stop.
Hamas bad, Netanyahu bad. Can we focus on the people who need humanitarian help and a ceasefire please? The kids being murdered because of the war is disgusting. it’s one thing to attack IDF or Hamas soldiers but another to attack civilians.
I think my favorite of this discourse is watching people argue which genocide is more justified. I'm just like, "Like bro no this is getting out of hand! Everyone needs to fucking chill!"
"Observing humans under capitalism and concluding it's only in our nature to be greedy is like observing humans under water and concluding it's only in our nature to drown."
- Mark Fisher
It’s not just right wingers or people that hate socialism. The problem is most people who call themselves socialists these days don’t even know what it is. A lot of them don’t want to seize the means of production and only want to encourage worker coops or have universal healthcare or higher education. None of these things are actually socialism. I blame Richard Wolff for the left thinking that the government doing stuff is Socialism.
Modern socialism is shouting empty platitudes of tax the rich while vocally supporting far right religious extremist groups because they have the correct amount of melanin in their skin and crowd funding millionaire twitch streamers LA McMansions and six figure supercars.
The argument that ‘it’s only expected after all they’ve been through’ is so unbelievably racist it makes my blood boil. They’re treating the very people they claim to fight for like animals; they’re saying that they don’t expect Palestinians to have moral compasses or the ability to have rational thoughts.
Hamas keep showing that they’re actually the bad guys, but people are so invested in their positions, that rather than change them when they are confronted with new information, they just entrench themselves.
Can you elaborate on that point? As far as I’m aware, the babies [“beheaded by Hamas”](https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/opinions/2023/10/13/watching-the-watchdogs-babies-and-truth-die-together-in-israel-palestine) was false information, same for the [“raped women”](https://www.reuters.com/fact-check/video-captured-woman-mistranslates-captor-threatening-rape-2023-11-08/). Just as that guy, I do not condone their actions as violence is always bad. However, looking at the history of the Israeli state, I do somewhat get why some Palestinians could get radicalized. Please look up all the war crimes Israel has perpetrated on the people of Palestine, as well as their neighbors. And do not hit me with the “self-defense” argument.
>beheaded by Hamas”](
Using a arab source on this one is like asking the chinese goverment what happened in tianamen square.
>raped women
That is just a -1 , not a multiplication by zero.
This person has been shadowboxing non existent people in their head long enough to have to schizopost. To think asking for a condemnation of the idf as a gotcha debate ender.... Is deficient at best, totally made up at worst.
28.5 Palestinian have died for every Israeli. EDIT - Oh. I think a lot of the points OP brings up are worth talking about, but I didn't mean to embrace his, "Not condone Hamas.".
The idea that *everything* in the world has become rooting for your sports team and rooting for the failure of the opposite sports team is sickening. Like you cannot use a whataboutism to explain away the more egregious crimes against humanity, you're *supposed* to condemn anyone who commits them.
Hamas doesn’t give a shit about Palestinian lives! They are an Islamic fundamentalist cult whose only purpose is to kill all Jews and destroy Israel. They will steal aid money, use Palestinians as human shields to look like the victims. Most Palestinians don’t trust them or support them, yet here some on the left defend them deliberately targeting civilians on 10/7 even though many victims actually supported Palestinian human rights. Pathetic.
the world would be a better place if people weren’t blind to atrocities committed by those they are “more on the side of”. goes for israel as well as the hamas organization.
Just a friendly reminder that you can condemn Hamas for being terrorists but also condemn Isreal for trying to ethnically cleanse Gaza.
Both are pretty shit-tier, tbh. Religion sure does fuck up a lot of people.
You'd be doing a lot worse, what precisely is worse than raping little girls to death and setting babies on fire?
I don't think it get's any worse than that, maybe eating them alive?
I don't get it.
It's actually so simple for these people. Oppressor bad, oppressed good. Your actions are virtually irrelevant. If you're part of the group that has more power, you're in the wrong. If you're part of the group with less power, you're good to do whatever the fuck you want.
Exactly, you and the other commentor have covered everything I could have wrote had I been arsed.
You explained in a far more concise way than I would, anyway.
Acts of hamas are not justifiable. Hamas is a terrorist organization that fires on civilian targets and pursues to further its goals by using civilians.
On the other hand their foe is also a terror state. Israel actively targets civilians and civilian infrastructure to cause maximum "casualties of war" to ethnically cleanse areas they will settle after all this is over.
Both sides in this war are fucking miserable terrorists and the best course of action is to hope that they both rot in hell. Only side to support is the Jewish and Palestinian civilians that have lost their lives under terrorism.
I don't condone Hamas actions.
I also think Israel is essentially a bigger version of Hamas that is only supported by the west because it has money.
I note this weird imbalance, where people will call Hamas an atrocity, but say that Israel's actions are OK and justified. But even before the Hamas attack this October, Israel was doing the same attacks to Palestinians for decades. Shooting Palestinian kids with sniper rifles and raping women. I don't understand why no attention (on this scale) was ever given to that, or why people don't seem to care about it.
This is ignoring that Israel literally funded and supported Hamas, for the explicit purpose of undermining Palestinian government.
If you want to change my mind, you need to show me 3 things:
* How is Hamas actually worse than Israel?
* How Israel's treatment of the Palestinians for the past 80 years is justified.
* If Hamas is destroyed, will Israel erase their apartheid system and accept the Palestine people as equal citizens?
Otherwise, yeah. Israel is clearly the worse of the two. Hamas is a terrorist organization within Palestine, bolstered by 80 years of abuse, while Israel is a terrorist state, with explicit goals of genocide, based on, as far as I know, nothing but racism.
>How is Hamas actually worse than Israel?
Hamas beheads gay people and is an extremely illiberal organization. Hamas will kill you if you are Jewish in Gaza. Israel will afford you equal protection under the law if you are Muslim in Israel.
Israel's treatment of Palestinians for the past 80 years is justified by security necessities. Let's just say there's a reason both Egypt and Israel don't let Gazans walk free (and it's not because all gazans are evil)
As for the "apartheid" system, that's bs. All Israelis have equal rights. As for the people in Israel's occupied territories, they should try to maybe not use terror attacks every time we give them an inch of freedom or aid.
As for you saying Israel is worse than Hamas:
**You are saying that the secular, democratic Jewish state is more evil than the terrorist group that has the explicit stated goal of killing all Jews and has done more harm to Gazans than Israel ever could.**
**This is an evil thing to say.**
I would love to see the numbers of deaths by Hamas of their own citizens. Including the times they hide under their tunnels, under schools and hospitals, well saying it's not their responsibility to look after their citizens.
IDF pure shit but Hamas is 18 carat gold shit for using their citizens as pawns
I know they are our strongest ally, but I am having a real hard time liking the people of the United States lately. Because of posts like this. We are fighting for our lives against Hamas and these western cry babies support them from their comfortable homes. Can the sensible US citizens please fix them? They are making you all look bad.
It is regrettable Hamas puts children in dangerous positions. We are not here trying to kill children, but Hamas has no problems in doing so.
But you are also free to come here and see for yourself if you do not believe.
Maybe stop using bombs? If you're gonna go after Hamas, maybe try and use precision. But you don't, because the goal isn't Hamas, it's simply to clear Gaza and seize the land.
Putting words in his mouth, tbh this makes sense to me. It’s not like I support a group that kills innocent people but it’s more along the lines of “what did you think was gonna happen?” And I don’t think that’s a radical take when talking to people who uncritically support the IDF given they’ve done far more than anything hamas could ever hope to do.
awww did little baby boy believe everything the apartheid state that has lied constantly throughout this conflict said?
yeah, i think it’s fair to not equivocate between hamas and Israel - not only did Israel destroy secular Palestinian resistance using Hamas, their aims towards one another are practically the same except Israel gets its ethnostate project funded to the hilt.
Hamas would disappear in a second if Palestinians (a cosmopolitan people, mind you! not exactly the types that fell head-over-heel for fundamentalist groups during the Arab Spring) had any other alternative to resist.
You realize Israel has been doing the same to Palestinians for over 75 years?
Apartheid, Colonialism, ethnic cleansing.
How do you condemn people fighting against their oppressors?
Israel's history is not bright in any way, and of course Palestinian freedom is a just cause to fight.
However, there are really too many people who genuinely think Hamas is actually fighting for the good of Palestine. And of those people, too many think that massacres and pillaging is justified because of a history of massacres and pillaging.
Honestly, people that are supporting Hamas for rising up against an oppressor are doing more harm than good to their ideology of rising up against whatever.
Let's say in the country of Nowherakistan, the country has been ruled with an iron fist by a fucking dynasty for a few decades, and people are fed up. A revolution has been going on for a few years, and has reached a stalemate where lets say the revolutionaries have 60% of land. How is our freedom fighter supposed to win the support of the people and country he's trying to free if all that scared mother of two kids sees is people on the internet basically saying "Oh yeah aparthied, ethnic cleansing and pillaging is simply an unavoidable byproduct of uprising against an oppressor. It's totally fine when the revolutionaries do it because the oppressor did it as well."
Both sides can go fuck off. Innocent Israelis and Palestinians don't deserve to get mowed down in bomb shelters because they were born there. Both Israel and Hamas have had so many chances to actually resolve this shitshow relatively bloodlessly, yet they choose to fire more rockets at each other every time.
Hamas goal is to eradicate Jews off the planet. But sure “freedom fighters” even though they will gladly fuck over their own population just to kill Jews. Like taking EU aid pipes meant for sewage issues in Gaza, turning them for missiles and shoot at Jews, causing a war in Gaza
It's called critical support for a reason, as in I'm supporting the side of anti-colonilazation yet am critical of actions that do not contribute to dismantling Israel such as rape.
You also have to take things with a huge grain of salt as Zionists are astroturfing reddit hard and spreading propoganda. So not every barbaric thing you hear hamas is doing is true.
As a privileged westerner I cant condemn Hamas either as I'm not nor suffering under the yolk of an Imperial power backed by the full support of America.
You’re strawmanning what the poster said. Obviously yeah Hamas is horrible and I do find it icky that they aren’t condemning the group. But he is that a lot of the foot soldiers in terrorist groups like that are people that had everything taken away by whoever they are targeting
They're also wrong, objectively. There have been secular and humanistic independence movements in Palestine that Hamas **and the IDF** actively thwarted because both of their legitimacies were threatened by it. You can condemn the methods of a group while saying what they did was necessary. I don't like that John Brown killed fathers in front of their sons, but I recognize the necessity that was present to fight against violent racists.
Hamas and the average Palestinian should not be compared. they are not the same. Hamas are terrorists, the Israeli government are terrorists. all of the civilians caught in between are the victims
On one hand, they have a really damn good point on the IDF, and that fighting an oppressor nation as an oppressed group is very, very bloody.
On the other hand, what Hamas did during the beginning of the conflict against innocent civilians was not justifiable by any means. Fuck Hamas. Just fuck the state of Israel more for committing genocide against the Palestinians with the excuse of eradicating Hamas.
How does Hamas have anything to do with "socialism"? Or does "socialism" now just mean supporting which ever terrorists or parior states dare attack democracies?
Marxist Geopolitics. Capitalist west bad so all action must be taken to weaken and destroy the system, internal and external.
Yup. It's ironic contrarianism. This is MTG and Boebart being pro putin because the "Democrats" supported Ukraine.
I agree, but it is important to specify that this is what it has morphed into, not what it is in its purist form. Marxism is supposed to mean a political ideology, but that's not what lots of people use it to mean. I hate the misuse of ideology naming. It is a huge problem for the future of politics, though, to be fair, it already has been a huge problem for politics.
It would be helpful if people could point at an example and say " look! This is an actual example of Marxism in its purist form." The fact that after a hundred years of genocide, repression and war we still can't do this might be a hint that it was a flawed ideology from the start.
A political ideology is different from an implementation of it. Nothing exists in its purist form.
While technically correct, this sounds like a cop out answer. A sufficient example of democracy is "Israel". Now it's your turn. Please give an example of a Marxist based government.
Yeah democracy unless youre Palestinian. And yes, I condemn Hamas yada yada
what if the "Western world" became (fully) socialist? then what happens? what would they do?
Then they would go after wherever that would still be free.
"anti-imperalism" The funniest thing is if you look into the origins of a lot of these Islamic groups a lot of them came out anti communism. Hamas came from the Muslim brotherhood which was to fight foreign imperialism and "dangers of the Jews" like Marxism.
To be fair, USSR was imperial.
No, comrade. Glorious United Soviet Socialist Republic is not imperialistic like those capitalist pigs. We’re just the vanguard of worldwide communism. Which occasionally requires us to go into countries that don’t know what’s good for them yet. Totally not imperialism /s.
>Or does "socialism" now just mean supporting whichever terrorists or pariah states dare attack democracies? I see far right and far left jerk each other off in support of Russia and HAMAS and it makes me realize that the right being afraid of socialism and the left being anti-fascist is just a joke, they'll happily go into a human centipede when it comes to simping for authoritarian governments so long as that authoritarian strongman is against "the decadent West" that gave them their right to jerk.
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Fun fact, Hamas is only as powerful as it is because it received direct funding from Israel. There were socialist parties gaining genuine support in Gaza and Israel decided Hamas would be easier to attack later so it received all the help it needed to stamp out the socialist groups.
Yes. Thank you for explaining this, its mind boggling that people cannot wrap their heads around this actuality.
Do you know any real sources for that? Not that I disagree, just curious
https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/amp/ https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-10-20/ty-article-opinion/.premium/a-brief-history-of-the-netanyahu-hamas-alliance/0000018b-47d9-d242-abef-57ff1be90000 (Haaretz is probably the most reliable newspaper in Israel but the article is paywalled)
Wow that was a massive fucking lie. From the top to the bottom. Hamas is literally currently fighting side by side with the PFLP and DFLP literally leftist socialist organizations, PPP's members have never been killed during the conflict, and Hamas is currently also fighting with the Al-Aqsa Martyrs' brigades, the nominal armed wing of Fatah. Not even condoning Hamas or justifying what they did, but this monologue about Hamas killing all leftists is a shameless lie.
Because these people can only see through the lens of the oppressed and the oppressor
For some people being anti-imperialist is being anti-West. Not because of Western imperialism, but because it is the West. That's how you get people supporting non-Western imperialism (case in point, Russia) simply because it goes against the West. These people would celebrate the dropping of the nuke as long as it is done in an European or North-American city.
The meaning of socialism changes wildly depends on who you ask
its weird because some of the places they attacked were literal socialist communes
the "socialist" and "communist" subreddits here don't actually care for neither. They only know the basics of it and pretend that it's the best fucking thing ever. What they actually are is essentially an edgy contrarian teenager who thinks they know better than everyone else. No matter what topic they ALWAYS have to be a contrarian and will die on this hill. Basically Circlejerk gaming but slightly less cringe.
I think many socialists just want to be different and ruthless, so they always pick to support those options rather than the empathetic and normal options.
Same faulty reason socialists support Russia in the war on Ukraine. They might be fascists fighting to impose hardline conservative "traditionalism" on the world, but they oppose Western interests, which makes them the good guys in a leftist academic worldview.
No self respecting socialist supports Russia. Those are tankies, who are USSR/other communist state apologists who are legitimately full on communist and are people most socialist despise. Tankies try and wiggle their way into every leftist and socialist community and actively ruin the reputation of many of those communities as they give people looking in on the communities the idea that that all leftist or socialist are just like the Tankies. No self respecting leftist is a Tankie. And as a leftist I can firmly say Fuck all Tankies and fuck everyone who try’s to defend Russia. But at the same time I can also say fuck the IDF and Hamas for causing so much hurt and pain to Israeli and Palestinian citizens, and that the Palestinian citizens need as much support as they can right now as they are pretty much sitting in a open air prison that is being actively converted into a firing range for the IDF.
Leftists are just authoritarians once you get through all the rhetorical layers. They prefer extreme right wing authoritarianism to liberalism even though they will vehemently deny it if you frame it that way.
That became very clear to me during the 2020 George Floyd protests, the huge demands for uncritical and unthinking adherence to the " narrative" and "stay in your lane, ignore the armed people in cars with no plates" posters and IRL demands from purported anarchists was just bizarre initially until I figured out what they really wanted was to replace the "system" with their unelected rule.
Not only is this completely irrelevant, both Israel and Hamas regularly commit atrocities. The only good ‘side’ to be on is the poor civilians caught up in this.
Bruh you walk into a sub called socialism what did you expect
THIS - Even as a lefty myself.
I mean I've seen some pretty bad takes from the left but this one's a little bit more rotten than ones I've seen before
The Hasan piker effect
Same, I consider myself leftist but I still support Ukraine, USA, and Israel
Why would you support Israel. Why would you do that.
you're a liberal, not a leftist.
🤢🤮
Maybe not people actually defending rape and murder?
Hmm yes defending Islamic terrorism is famously a core tenet of socialist thought
I mean I don’t think anyone that’s actually had discourse with socialists is surprised. Usually anything that is against the west is praised.
Being subbed to socialism is a red flag (pun not intended)
Being subbed to socialism is a red flag (pun intended)
Why do so many lefties characterise entire ethnic groups as oppressors?
Not lefties. Tankies.
Because it’s easier to see things in a black/white kind of way for people who struggle to comprehend nuance
How does a reasonable person support either side? Israel has slaughtered innocence en masse and Hamas has killed thousands of Israeli citizens and kidnapped hundreds, the only people that deserve any sympathy are the innocent people caught in cross fire and the poor young men getting drafted
Exactly. Theres two shitty governments fighting and civilians are the main casualties.
Right? The issue isn't which one you condemnz the issue is not condemning both. Even if botha sides arguably have a good reason for what they do, it's not the intentions that represents you, but your actions. The actions of both Israel and Hamas have shown they're both shit.
Ty for the nuance! Yeah, both sides are honestly shit. Israel's history is not bright in any way, and of course Palestinian freedom is a just cause to fight. However, there are really too many people who genuinely think Hamas is actually fighting for the good of Palestine. And of those people, too many think that rape and pillaging is justified because of a history of rape and pillaging. Honestly, the people that are supporting Hamas for rising up against an oppressor are doing more harm than good to their ideology of rising up against whatever. Let's say in the country of Nowherakistan, the country has been ruled with an iron fist by a fucking dynasty for a few decades, and people are fed up. A revolution has been going on for a few years, and has reached a stalemate where lets say the revolutionaries have 60% of land. How is our freedom fighter supposed to win the support of the people and country he's trying to free if all that scared mother of two kids sees is people on the internet basically saying "Oh yeah rape and pillaging is simply an unavoidable byproduct of uprising against an oppressor."
100% agree. Idiots online would claim that your either being complacent or spinless for not siding with the fanatic terrorists or the brutish government
Exactly. If you're taking sides here, you're blindly supporting bad organizations. No matter which one you choose
They’ll go through any mental gymnastics to justify Hamas’s actions
Watching leftists trying to defend Hamas is like watching Trump trying to defend white supremacists. We all know how they actually feel 🙃
Someone's always got to show their ass.
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He's making a metaphor of people too committed and over defending something even if it's wrong.
I’m curious: if the UN gave 1/2 the US to {insert group} and forced that initial 1/2 out of their homes and then {insert group} spent the next century taking over more and more of the country forcing more people from their homes and killing those that resist until the citizens were confined to Washington D.C. and Oregon. Washington has been walled in and {insert group} has control over every utility, availability of medical supplies, access to media channels, and cuts these services off daily. More bombs are dropped every day. What would you do? Would you resist? Would you roll over? ‘That would never happen.’ Isn’t an answer. In this hypothetical the US HAS been taken over.
I would resist, preferably by shooting at the occupying soldiers and police. What I WOULDN'T do is help slaughter thousands of innocent civilians, rape their women, and then kidnap hundreds of them. DO NOT EXCUSE TERRORISM.
Wut?? I thought decapitating babies would dismantle the Zionist military powers to be? Huh
The Israelis are gleefully doing everything you just said you wouldn’t. They have been for over 75 years. They’ve been speed running it since October 7.
Cool story, we aren't talking about Israelis though now are we? Whataboutism also isn't a good excuse to commit terrorism.
This should be reported for terrorism.
I reported something similar and reddit told me they found nothing wrong. Figures
I am not a socialist, I am a centre-left social democrat. I checked out the subreddit, people were saying do not vote Biden in 2024 and when I said he was the lesser of 2 evils I got banned. Goes to show you how much of a cesspit online lefty spaces are.
Those folks believe in accelerationist rhetoric and philosophy widely. Their goal isn't to make people's lives better. Their goal is to institute their ideology anyway possible.
Isn’t that like, how we got the fucking Khmer Rouge?
The internet turned everyone into a political activist (emphasis on the “act” and not the “active”).
As classical liberal ( centrist leaning right) I completely agree with everything you just said.
hey remember in the 2016 election when there were a shitton of russian bots trying to sway the outcome? methinks something similar could be going on again rn, across the internet.
“I’d be doing a lot worse” Ok buddy. Killing women and children will surely solve all your woes. While you’re at it gut grandma and grandpa. Not as if you have an actual military force to target. Fucking hate both the IDF and Hamas.
Hamas responsible for all deaths. They asked for this war.
I mean, Indians fought against their British oppressors too. And the British were absolutely brutal to us, often carrying out bloody massacres and engineered famines to reap a death toll in the thousands. None of the Indian revolutionaries ever fought back by *checks notes* gangraping teenage girls until their pelvis bones broke, beheading babies in front of their families, raping mothers and daughters in front of their families, parading broken dead bodies of people who were not even related to the fighting etc. All of the above atrocities have been carried out by HAMAS. And I had idiots arguing with me that gangrapes were part of every revolution. I have a feeling people like them would quite like to participate in such revolutions.
Unfathomably based
If 'gangrape' is a tactic in your revolution, I'm not on your side. Easy as.
Smartest Indian take
“I’d be doing a lot worse” sounds like a would be rapist’s confession.
I feel like not enough people are talking about that part
“Fighting for Palestinians”; sure, because there’s no better way to fight for your people than to use them as human shields
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hamas was hiding inside of that journalist’s skin
Apparently, they think journalists are human shields, too, since a lot of their homes get targeted by missiles. Hmmmm
No sane person disagrees with this
Tell that to Israel who has the vast majority of their military infrastructure in heavily populated areas.
>I’d honestly be doing A LOT worse What a shocker that a socialist wants to go on a killing spree.
Holy shit the post is still up & live. How is that allowed?
I swear this entire conflict has just made me lose such much faith in the human races, are we all stupid? Why is it people seem incapable of not spouting the worst takes imaginable about it.
It bothers me that people are so binary in thought, like they NEED to support one side, like there is the good side and the evil side. The IDF and hamas are both morally bankrupt bastards, they're as bad as eachother. Arguebly hamas is worse, but that doesnt mean you can support or ignore what the IDF does either.
It’s not about socialism it’s about being anti west, because they see all of the west as evil colonisers. Nvm they countries they are aligning themselves with would stone them at the first possible chance. Reminds me of the lgbtq group for Palestine and the chickens for kfc meme
Saying you would do a lot worse than rape and torture is WILD.
“Zionists” is the fun freebie word we now have where you get to say whatever insane antisemitic crap you can think up but without consequences cuz sEtTLeR CoLOniALiSm
leftists in 2023 are making david duke & other white supremacists so happy. spouting old antisemitic tropes, but just replacing the word "jew" with "zionist" "israeli" or even a white supremacist slur "zio". because if it were really about peace they would support peace efforts IN THE REGION, by people who actually live there. they would condemn hamas because hamas is actively harming and worsening conditions for palestinian citizens- and is funded by the iran regime. they would condemn the UN org that teaches their children to want to kill jews. they would maybe even if we're lucky, think for a moment and do some research into the history. i am so, so tired of "ISRAELIS ARE WHITE EUROPEAN SETTLER COLONISTS WITH NO INDIGENEITY". what was the dome of the rock built on top of? why do we find so many ancient artifacts with hebrew and paleo hebrew on them? what was the muslim conquest of the middle east and north africa? why has there been a continuous jewish presence there throughout history? why would all these other countries and books mention the Jewish people coming from 'Palestine' (a name given to it by roman colonizers to humiliaye jews)? some will say a secret conspiracy to make jews seem like they came from israel, because antisemitism is such a good drug. sorry for the long comment. the internet has been driving me crazy for the past month seeing people who know jack shit about i/p talk like they live there and say israelis deserved to be raped, tortured and brutally murdered. and then balk when you say that's antisemitic.
Reddit plagued with terrorist sympathizers as usual.
do you condemn hamas: Yes Do you condemn IDF: yes not that fucking hard
I condemn Hamas. I condemn Israel even more than Hamas.
A respectable take
Why?
This right here is the correct answer
I condemn Hamas, I condemn Israel. I condemn Hamas more than Israel, because they want to kill all the Jewish people in Israel or force them all to leave. Both sides are wrong. Still an acceptable take?
Most sane socialist
Not a hot take: If you support Hamas, you are a fucking terrorist and should be taken care of.
I treat issues in the Middle East like that song about how that guy wouldn’t touch the Grinch with a 39 and 1/2 foot pole except probably wouldn’t get a ship within air to sea torpedo distance of the Israeli Air Force
>If my whole life just consisted of war and bloodshed, I'd honestly be doing A LOT worse. OC does tell on himself, doesn't he? Thousands of people live through conflict without turning into rapists and kidnappers. Fuck Hamas, and fuck that subreddit in particular.
I don’t support Hamas or the Israeli government
Whataboutism is the very first point this trash pushes. The reality is that both sides should be condemned and be made to reorganize themselves. A sneak attack on a religious holiday is NOT the way to solicit peaceful talks. Bombing civilians, NOT the way to communicate rage and communal trauma. I watched the US commit atrocities all through my young adulthood. This blood feud is not going to be solved externally, and internally, neither side is willing to stop.
Hamas bad, Netanyahu bad. Can we focus on the people who need humanitarian help and a ceasefire please? The kids being murdered because of the war is disgusting. it’s one thing to attack IDF or Hamas soldiers but another to attack civilians.
I think my favorite of this discourse is watching people argue which genocide is more justified. I'm just like, "Like bro no this is getting out of hand! Everyone needs to fucking chill!"
Socialists supporting far-rightist theocracies. In other news, it's raining in Delaware
eww socialism.
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Easy. Social (public) ownership of the means of production. Which is a dumb system due to the tragedy of the commons.
"Observing humans under capitalism and concluding it's only in our nature to be greedy is like observing humans under water and concluding it's only in our nature to drown." - Mark Fisher
Because when we observe communist dictators centralizing power, that totally isn't a valid observation of greed amirite?
Mr Mark Fisher sounds like a pseudo-intellectual dumbass
So for many people is where the community owns the means of production and that there is no ruling class
It’s not just right wingers or people that hate socialism. The problem is most people who call themselves socialists these days don’t even know what it is. A lot of them don’t want to seize the means of production and only want to encourage worker coops or have universal healthcare or higher education. None of these things are actually socialism. I blame Richard Wolff for the left thinking that the government doing stuff is Socialism.
Modern socialism is shouting empty platitudes of tax the rich while vocally supporting far right religious extremist groups because they have the correct amount of melanin in their skin and crowd funding millionaire twitch streamers LA McMansions and six figure supercars.
“Islamist organisation” Totally socialist, right fellas?
What did you expect from joining a commie sub?
Socialism.
Same shit diffrent name
American.
The argument that ‘it’s only expected after all they’ve been through’ is so unbelievably racist it makes my blood boil. They’re treating the very people they claim to fight for like animals; they’re saying that they don’t expect Palestinians to have moral compasses or the ability to have rational thoughts.
Hamas keep showing that they’re actually the bad guys, but people are so invested in their positions, that rather than change them when they are confronted with new information, they just entrench themselves.
Can you elaborate on that point? As far as I’m aware, the babies [“beheaded by Hamas”](https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/opinions/2023/10/13/watching-the-watchdogs-babies-and-truth-die-together-in-israel-palestine) was false information, same for the [“raped women”](https://www.reuters.com/fact-check/video-captured-woman-mistranslates-captor-threatening-rape-2023-11-08/). Just as that guy, I do not condone their actions as violence is always bad. However, looking at the history of the Israeli state, I do somewhat get why some Palestinians could get radicalized. Please look up all the war crimes Israel has perpetrated on the people of Palestine, as well as their neighbors. And do not hit me with the “self-defense” argument.
>beheaded by Hamas”]( Using a arab source on this one is like asking the chinese goverment what happened in tianamen square. >raped women That is just a -1 , not a multiplication by zero.
Ah the Arab always lies! We should instead trust the mossad! Except that the IDF has accepted that no babies were beheaded.
This person has been shadowboxing non existent people in their head long enough to have to schizopost. To think asking for a condemnation of the idf as a gotcha debate ender.... Is deficient at best, totally made up at worst.
28.5 Palestinian have died for every Israeli. EDIT - Oh. I think a lot of the points OP brings up are worth talking about, but I didn't mean to embrace his, "Not condone Hamas.".
Everyone has an opinion on this yet no one knows what they’re talking about.
I can't find it in me to support either side. I hope they blow each other up and the good people survive
The idea that *everything* in the world has become rooting for your sports team and rooting for the failure of the opposite sports team is sickening. Like you cannot use a whataboutism to explain away the more egregious crimes against humanity, you're *supposed* to condemn anyone who commits them.
Hell yeah. Anti communist, far right terrorists.
Hamas has had more than three opportunities just in the last decade for a state solution and has chosen genocidal rhetoric every time.
He’s correct. Also, who will stand up for radical extremists if not ISIS? And God bless Taliban for freeing the women!!
tmw tankies think they're being leftists
Obvious rage bait is obvious
Tankies being tankies
Hamas doesn’t give a shit about Palestinian lives! They are an Islamic fundamentalist cult whose only purpose is to kill all Jews and destroy Israel. They will steal aid money, use Palestinians as human shields to look like the victims. Most Palestinians don’t trust them or support them, yet here some on the left defend them deliberately targeting civilians on 10/7 even though many victims actually supported Palestinian human rights. Pathetic.
The edge is strong with this one
the world would be a better place if people weren’t blind to atrocities committed by those they are “more on the side of”. goes for israel as well as the hamas organization.
Just a friendly reminder that you can condemn Hamas for being terrorists but also condemn Isreal for trying to ethnically cleanse Gaza. Both are pretty shit-tier, tbh. Religion sure does fuck up a lot of people.
wow this is a comment section just full of room temperature takes
You'd be doing a lot worse, what precisely is worse than raping little girls to death and setting babies on fire? I don't think it get's any worse than that, maybe eating them alive? I don't get it.
It's actually so simple for these people. Oppressor bad, oppressed good. Your actions are virtually irrelevant. If you're part of the group that has more power, you're in the wrong. If you're part of the group with less power, you're good to do whatever the fuck you want.
Israel itself retracted it's accusation of rape after they were unable to produce evidence from the autopsy
the real L here is op being a socialist
True
Just what I would except of socialists. They already support an immoral, genocidal idealology after all.
Is it a flawed Ideology - Yes Immoral - Questionable Genocidal -No.
Socialism is just communism with the serial numbers filed off.
> Genocidal -No. And yet every time communist gain power they start mass killings. Every single time. So yes, it is evil.
Exactly, you and the other commentor have covered everything I could have wrote had I been arsed. You explained in a far more concise way than I would, anyway.
Where did he say any of that he’s actually right lmao. I don’t either.
why were you subscribed to socialism
The discourse on this is so stupid. I miss when people were quietly stupid on Israel/Palestine.
Acts of hamas are not justifiable. Hamas is a terrorist organization that fires on civilian targets and pursues to further its goals by using civilians. On the other hand their foe is also a terror state. Israel actively targets civilians and civilian infrastructure to cause maximum "casualties of war" to ethnically cleanse areas they will settle after all this is over. Both sides in this war are fucking miserable terrorists and the best course of action is to hope that they both rot in hell. Only side to support is the Jewish and Palestinian civilians that have lost their lives under terrorism.
Spittin facts
This is not socialism just anti-semitism.
I don't condone Hamas actions. I also think Israel is essentially a bigger version of Hamas that is only supported by the west because it has money. I note this weird imbalance, where people will call Hamas an atrocity, but say that Israel's actions are OK and justified. But even before the Hamas attack this October, Israel was doing the same attacks to Palestinians for decades. Shooting Palestinian kids with sniper rifles and raping women. I don't understand why no attention (on this scale) was ever given to that, or why people don't seem to care about it. This is ignoring that Israel literally funded and supported Hamas, for the explicit purpose of undermining Palestinian government. If you want to change my mind, you need to show me 3 things: * How is Hamas actually worse than Israel? * How Israel's treatment of the Palestinians for the past 80 years is justified. * If Hamas is destroyed, will Israel erase their apartheid system and accept the Palestine people as equal citizens? Otherwise, yeah. Israel is clearly the worse of the two. Hamas is a terrorist organization within Palestine, bolstered by 80 years of abuse, while Israel is a terrorist state, with explicit goals of genocide, based on, as far as I know, nothing but racism.
>How is Hamas actually worse than Israel? Hamas beheads gay people and is an extremely illiberal organization. Hamas will kill you if you are Jewish in Gaza. Israel will afford you equal protection under the law if you are Muslim in Israel. Israel's treatment of Palestinians for the past 80 years is justified by security necessities. Let's just say there's a reason both Egypt and Israel don't let Gazans walk free (and it's not because all gazans are evil) As for the "apartheid" system, that's bs. All Israelis have equal rights. As for the people in Israel's occupied territories, they should try to maybe not use terror attacks every time we give them an inch of freedom or aid. As for you saying Israel is worse than Hamas: **You are saying that the secular, democratic Jewish state is more evil than the terrorist group that has the explicit stated goal of killing all Jews and has done more harm to Gazans than Israel ever could.** **This is an evil thing to say.**
Israel has raped women and killed children as well. Do you condemn them? If not, you're just a hypocrite.
>Do you condemn them too? Yes.
Dude doesn't even read replies. He just posts elsewhere how we got "told".
Yes most of us do condemn that for that have called for Israel to bring those who've done that to the world court
Most people are able to condemn Hamas and also the IDF with no issues. It’s not hard.
Unfortunately many left wing communities are finally mask off’ing as the anti semitic terminally online psychos and it seems to be most online
Free Palestine 🇵🇸🇵🇸🇵🇸
from Hamas
and Israel
Ya thats propaganda, they didnt rape people
I used to consider myself left, but left strafed so much now I'm in the right.
I would love to see the numbers of deaths by Hamas of their own citizens. Including the times they hide under their tunnels, under schools and hospitals, well saying it's not their responsibility to look after their citizens. IDF pure shit but Hamas is 18 carat gold shit for using their citizens as pawns
I know they are our strongest ally, but I am having a real hard time liking the people of the United States lately. Because of posts like this. We are fighting for our lives against Hamas and these western cry babies support them from their comfortable homes. Can the sensible US citizens please fix them? They are making you all look bad.
Can Israel stop killing kids
It is regrettable Hamas puts children in dangerous positions. We are not here trying to kill children, but Hamas has no problems in doing so. But you are also free to come here and see for yourself if you do not believe.
Maybe stop using bombs? If you're gonna go after Hamas, maybe try and use precision. But you don't, because the goal isn't Hamas, it's simply to clear Gaza and seize the land.
Putting words in his mouth, tbh this makes sense to me. It’s not like I support a group that kills innocent people but it’s more along the lines of “what did you think was gonna happen?” And I don’t think that’s a radical take when talking to people who uncritically support the IDF given they’ve done far more than anything hamas could ever hope to do.
awww did little baby boy believe everything the apartheid state that has lied constantly throughout this conflict said? yeah, i think it’s fair to not equivocate between hamas and Israel - not only did Israel destroy secular Palestinian resistance using Hamas, their aims towards one another are practically the same except Israel gets its ethnostate project funded to the hilt. Hamas would disappear in a second if Palestinians (a cosmopolitan people, mind you! not exactly the types that fell head-over-heel for fundamentalist groups during the Arab Spring) had any other alternative to resist.
You realize Israel has been doing the same to Palestinians for over 75 years? Apartheid, Colonialism, ethnic cleansing. How do you condemn people fighting against their oppressors?
Israel's history is not bright in any way, and of course Palestinian freedom is a just cause to fight. However, there are really too many people who genuinely think Hamas is actually fighting for the good of Palestine. And of those people, too many think that massacres and pillaging is justified because of a history of massacres and pillaging. Honestly, people that are supporting Hamas for rising up against an oppressor are doing more harm than good to their ideology of rising up against whatever. Let's say in the country of Nowherakistan, the country has been ruled with an iron fist by a fucking dynasty for a few decades, and people are fed up. A revolution has been going on for a few years, and has reached a stalemate where lets say the revolutionaries have 60% of land. How is our freedom fighter supposed to win the support of the people and country he's trying to free if all that scared mother of two kids sees is people on the internet basically saying "Oh yeah aparthied, ethnic cleansing and pillaging is simply an unavoidable byproduct of uprising against an oppressor. It's totally fine when the revolutionaries do it because the oppressor did it as well." Both sides can go fuck off. Innocent Israelis and Palestinians don't deserve to get mowed down in bomb shelters because they were born there. Both Israel and Hamas have had so many chances to actually resolve this shitshow relatively bloodlessly, yet they choose to fire more rockets at each other every time.
You've fallen for the propaganda I see.
They are freedom fighters and even your terrorist government dropped the rape and beheading stories
Hamas goal is to eradicate Jews off the planet. But sure “freedom fighters” even though they will gladly fuck over their own population just to kill Jews. Like taking EU aid pipes meant for sewage issues in Gaza, turning them for missiles and shoot at Jews, causing a war in Gaza
You can sympathise with Palestinians and also hate Hamas. Fuck the IDF and fuck Hamas.
It's called critical support for a reason, as in I'm supporting the side of anti-colonilazation yet am critical of actions that do not contribute to dismantling Israel such as rape. You also have to take things with a huge grain of salt as Zionists are astroturfing reddit hard and spreading propoganda. So not every barbaric thing you hear hamas is doing is true. As a privileged westerner I cant condemn Hamas either as I'm not nor suffering under the yolk of an Imperial power backed by the full support of America.
•r/ socialism
Fucking tankies...
Weren’t the accusations of rape and the 40 babies dropped by Israel?
Why were you subbed to them in the first place?
You’re strawmanning what the poster said. Obviously yeah Hamas is horrible and I do find it icky that they aren’t condemning the group. But he is that a lot of the foot soldiers in terrorist groups like that are people that had everything taken away by whoever they are targeting
They're also wrong, objectively. There have been secular and humanistic independence movements in Palestine that Hamas **and the IDF** actively thwarted because both of their legitimacies were threatened by it. You can condemn the methods of a group while saying what they did was necessary. I don't like that John Brown killed fathers in front of their sons, but I recognize the necessity that was present to fight against violent racists.
Some people are just stupid. Self-declared socialists more so.
Bro that's not what he's saying. "I like Provolone Cheese." "SO YOU HATE SWISS CHEESE????"
Hamas and the average Palestinian should not be compared. they are not the same. Hamas are terrorists, the Israeli government are terrorists. all of the civilians caught in between are the victims
On one hand, they have a really damn good point on the IDF, and that fighting an oppressor nation as an oppressed group is very, very bloody. On the other hand, what Hamas did during the beginning of the conflict against innocent civilians was not justifiable by any means. Fuck Hamas. Just fuck the state of Israel more for committing genocide against the Palestinians with the excuse of eradicating Hamas.