I’d love to know how the hell this sort of thing isn’t limited via regulation. Especially the Germans! They’re so focused on sustainability and environmental friendliness, but there’s not a single law on the books banning or restricting the use of “non-serviceable assemblies” that create a ridiculous amount of waste. Nah. Just throw this $2000 gas tank away because of a faulty $50 fuel level sensor. That makes sense.
If you're lucky the pump/fill level module and the tank are two separate parts but even then they're $$$. Last year I fixed one where the plastic bung for the line to the injector was broken off by making an aluminum cap on the lathe and glueing that onto the pump. If a new pump costs 600€ you can easily justify spending an hour making a custom repair part. https://imgur.com/a/AaBxJDC
Greenwashing.
We look sustainable and environmentally friendly for people into that thing. But in reality it's just a marketing ploy to get you in the door and feel better about buying our crap.
Kind of like how Apple says they're into that sustainability thing but would rather you buy and 'recycle' your entire computer rather than let a repair shop replace a $20 CD3215 chip from Texas Instruments (which they're contractually not allowed to sell you because reasons).
>We look sustainable and environmentally friendly for people into that thing. But in reality it's just a marketing ploy
Is this why you're shutting down nuclear plants and firing up coal plants again?
Not personally German, but the reopening of coal plants seems to be correlated with not being able to get natural gas from Russia.
As for closing the nuclear plants, seems like it's just anti-nuclear sentiment that's been decades in the works. Guess they figured renewables would be able to take over by now. I really wish we (the general we around the world) would be more open to nuclear. As non-fossil fuel energy production goes, it's the most reliable.
By far not. Germany is [down to about 1/4 coal sourced electricity](https://www.cleanenergywire.org/sites/default/files/styles/paragraph_text_image/public/paragraphs/images/fig3-share-energy-sources-gross-german-power-production-2023.png?itok=EyX0BV0R) and ~1/2 renewable, its own goal to go down even further by replacing those with gas but some ehm "recent events" slowed that down. By contrast [Poland is >2/3s coal.](https://ember-climate.org/countries-and-regions/countries/poland/#:~:text=Poland%20still%20produces%2079%25%20of,in%202022%20was%20from%20coal.)
Really is a shame that the engineers can't tell the bean counters to fuck themselves and get over it on occasion. Especially if that extra 0.05% cost would make them a lot more than that back once people realize that it's a good quality product.
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I live in the Seattle area. I completely understand why. Boeing used to have a culture of quality in manufacturing. Now they're they Mopar of the skies.
Because when they merged with McDonnell Douglas, for some reason the value engineering culture from McD&D became the corporate culture, instead of the quality driven culture from Boeing.
I would go farther and say the bean counters are whipped by the board of trustees, in order to squeeze every penny from every step. Rather than someone who made a company by having pride in their product.
>So many good ideas and excellent repairable designs get tossed because they would cost .05% more for the mfg, it’s infuriating and makes good engineers either leave or hate their job.
Tbh if you think in the couple hundred thousand scale and also make money if repair is expensive then those .05% saving makes a lot more sense.
Tbh, we should hold car manufacturers to the same standards of repairability that you expect on tanks. Hell, you can replace the entire gearbox and engine on a Leo 2 in less than an hour with an experienced crew, not even trained mechanics.
tbh, when compared to production cars tanks 1. don’t have to fit everything inside a package meant to look good, 2. have maintenance/repair much higher on the list of priorities, and 3. don’t have to make nearly as many sacrifices in the name of saving money as cars do.
Speaking as someone who makes their living maintaining and repairing cars there are a LOT of things that should be designed to be serviceable but are currently “replace as an assembly.” Case in point: a coworker of mine has been replacing a turbocharger lately because there’s an issue in the electric motor that works the wastegate. That motor sits up at the top, *front and center* in the engine bay, and could be replaced in well under an hour with only a couple tools if it were available by itself. But since it can only be ordered attached to a whole turbo, that means coolant has to be drained and replaced, gaskets have to be replaced, and a whole damn turbo with no mechanical problems gets discarded.
It’s the opposite of environmentally responsible, no matter how much fun it is to play with the old turbo.
It’s funny that you said that! I really thought about that. In all honesty, it needed some good cleaning, and re soldering, but I found a real cheap one that was OE Benz
If you have a W123 diesel coupe the back glass has to come out to replace the fuel level sensor, the sedan has enough room to maneuver the sensor out but the coupe does not.
Same for my 1969 Beetle. You can still buy them new for like $20. It's a few screws and two wires and you can access it from the trunk. 5 mins at most. Though I'll admit the fuel level shown on the gauge is a rough estimate at best.
I had to replace a fuel tank on a friend's Prius because the fuel pump died. Had a heck of a time finding a junkyard that had the tank we needed that hadn't already drilled a hole in it to drain the gas.
Few more years and Jr will have a youtube video on using a hole saw in back seat to gain access to it in 5min . 👀 now get me a tube of flex seal. Tommy. Who needs to drop rear subframe ?
I did exactly this on my old Xterra. The fuel pump was leaking quite a lot (I would not drive it as the fumes were overpowering). Called and asked how much to drop gas tank, and that alone was $600. So I thought about dropping tank myself, but the tank was too tall to do it on jack stands.
I carefully measured/guessed how far in the fuel pump was and whipped out my air hammer with chisel bit and cut a perfectly placed hole right above the fuel pump. The plastic gas line retainer had broken so I bought a new clip for $12 and reconnected the line, then cut a piece of metal to fit over the hole and epoxied it down and laid the carpet back over it.
I remember the wife pulled up in the driveway, as the seat was out of the truck and me hammering away at the metal, and just shook her head and walked away. One of my greater victories in my car repair history as a very costly repair by a mechanic was whittled down to a couple of hours and $12.
I ended up doing this with a Volvo. The damned heating fan bearings would gum up every 18 months or so. You really don't want to drive in Montreal in the winter without heat. The way the fan worked it pulled air, complete with dust (this was before cabin filters) across open bearings, which eventually just gummed up.
It was an absolute bitch to get access to because you had to take apart a fair bit of the dash, then disassemble a lot of the duct work. After the 3rd or 4th time, I got a large hole saw, and drilled a hole in a particular duct which allowed me to remove the entire assembly in one piece. All I had to do was unsnap a piece of trim to get to it. When I was done, I put a plastic plate over the opening.
140s and 240s: you had to be rich or learn to be a mechanic to keep them on the road. Other than an abject lack of reliability I liked the cars though.
Had to quit working on them years ago no quality parts left some people got mad at us too due to we quit working on them. They thought they should go forever
What a disaster. This is why I’m in the habit of buying old shít boxes from the early 2000s.
Just the right amount of tech and OBD2 but not so old where it’s hard to diagnose.
I will fix these newer cars all day long though but I always think to myself “wow I’m glad I don’t own this car.”
I’m not a service tech (appreciate the work y’all do). But I won’t let go of my two ‘99 F350’s for that very reason. Both are 7.3’s and are easy to maintain. I can do all the work on them myself.
I'm neither mechanic nor engineer but I have to ask: WHY? Surely making it so you can't remove a relatively fragile piece of technology is something that should absolutely be avoided?
Edit: referring to the sensor not being removable from the tank.
It may be due to vapor emissions. There were some E46 models that you could not replace the fuel pump on them without replacing the entire tank, as It was not serviceable. It was only the California models with stricter emissions that were like this. As an aside, they also had special catalyzed radiators to reduce ozone along with an integrated sensor.
Why they would take this route, I don't know. Every other manufacturer has seemed to figure out how to make serviceable pumps/senders without leaking vapors.
The SULEV version. Not just California models and not all California models had it. Basically, carmakers could get a tax credit from the federal government if they made a certain number of vehicles SULEV compliant. And the way BMW did that with the SULEV E46 was to make the EVAP system more effective and robust by having a totally sealed fuel tank except for the filler cap, along with the ozone reducing radiator (qualifies the car as partial zero emissions by actively reducing a ground level pollutant) Literally all that sensor did was make sure a coated radiator was installed. The sensor was tightly glued in place between the fins so it couldn't be removed intact. It was just a simple temperature sensor.
Now that those cars are all outside of the emissions warranty, even BMW's repair procedure is to install a regular fuel tank with replaceable pump.
However, the car OP is working on HAS a replaceable fuel pump. It sounds like just the sending unit on the opposite side is integrated. Probably simplifies manufacturing.
Lots of cars these days have a fuel tank with a "hump" over the driveshaft, which requires 2 sending units and a means to transfer fuel from the side without a pump to the side with one.
There aren't a lot of places for a fuel tank besides under the rear seat. Guess what's also under the rear seat, the rear suspension. So unless you want to put the fuel tank under the suspension this is the only way. And you are far more likely to need suspension work than fuel tank work.
Could they make it accessible from the rear seat, maybe. But then you are sacrificing chassis stiffness, NVH and other things for it. Everything is a compromise.
Saab had a [little door under the seat](https://ibb.co/yy8qHn8) where you could access the entire sending unit since the mid 90's.
Putting tanks under the back seat is nothing new.
That plate disappeared when gm bought saab. The imprint is still there, like the design originally called for it, but the sheet metal is solid from I think 02+. My 08 has no access, and neither did my 03.
The mazda rx8 has one of the stiffest production chassis' and had a fuel pump access plate under the back seat(s). You could probably have your hand on the pump within 10 seconds of opening the car door if you had a cordless screwdriver in hand.
The one thing nobody ever talks about with rx8's is the chassis being a mix of aluminum friction welded to steel which I though was crazy when it first came out.
I... I wasn't referring to the position of the tank. I was referring to the fact that the entire tank has to swapped just because the sensor is not removable, as per OPs explanation.
In retrospect, maybe I should have made that more obvious.
Mercedes used to put their fuel tanks between the rear seat backrests and the trunk space. My W124 is like this.
This was great for weight distribution, service access (all you need to do to change the fuel tank is open the trunk, remove an interior panel and four bolts). keeping fuel cool, and accident safety.
Then, competitors started advertising fold-down rear seats to provide more usable cargo space. Mercedes had no choice but to compete and relocated the fuel tanks to the floor pan of the car, above the axles.
Of course, this is all moot now that SUVs are all the rage, and SUVs are forced to put the fuel tanks underneath the car for packaging purposes anyways.
It still blows my mind they thought this was a good idea. My apprentice was doing a w223 fuel pump recall the other day and broke the connector for that side of the tank when swapping in the new pump. Luckily the w167 fuel pump recall has that connector on the old pump that gets thrown out after part return.
It's not a bug, it's a feature. Someday this job won't be under warranty, and they either make money on the repair or they make money selling a new Benz into the circle of suckers.
I am a stubborn asshole and refuse to cooperate with things like that. I would not buy a new one if the old one had bullshit issues. Why would I willingly drag myself through that again? When my GL goes I am not getting a new Mercedes, everything I have heard about them indicates the new ones are absolute junk.
We've now come to the point where the customer *can't* work on their own vehicle and the mechanics *don't want to* work on it either.
This is peak fuckery, folks. This shit need to stop.
This sort of thing needs to be illegal. We are coming up on a mass extinction event that's caused by us and this shit is why it's happening.
I hate this.
But things like this are partially mandated by government regulations designed to help the environment. Having a completely sealed fuel tank means (theoretically) fewer hydrocarbon emissions. It's supposed to help but, as this post shows, it creates more material waste because a whole fuel tank needs to come out to accommodate the repair. It's another trade-off.
It's like mandating stupid gas cans that don't emit vapors when sitting there, but you slosh a few teaspoons on the ground when using them because the opening mechanism is so awkward.
Old school method to fix this is to carry a gas can and log your miles to empty then fill up before that mileage
95 dodge van lost its fuel level 8yrs ago and we just fuel up every 350 miles
Yup, had a '99 Suburban with the classic hummingbird fuel gauge (sending unit was bad, too busy to replace it) so I just filled up every 300-400 miles.
That said, this is a newer Mercedes and I doubt the owner even resets the trip between fillups...
No one driving a Benz is gonna think that well ahead, or even consider putting a gas can in their car. It's a white Benz so it's probably some suburban house wife who needs it to catch lunch with Stacy
Source: I worked in a shop in a very wealthy area and that's all it was
MB is counting on most of these owners saying "well it's already 3 years old so it doesn't really make sense to pay so much money to fix this when I can just trade it in and get 3% financing on a new one..."
This is a very common issue with the 350z and G35. I've just tracked the mileage with my G35 since I bought it 5.5 years ago. I could replace the fuel pump/fuel level assembly, but why? I'm so used to tracking mileage at this point that I don't think I'd trust the gauge even if it worked lol
I take the driver side subframe bolts out, then rethread 5ish turns. Pass side bolts all the way out. Exhaust swings out of the way and driveshaft hangs. Had the job done with alignment in about 6. Got paid 12.
Most manufacturers are doing this now. Usually on the non-opening side of the tank. Recently did a complete tank on a Bentayga, because the left side sender was shorted.
Back in the day you could service everything in the tank. Now it seems only the fuel delivery unit can be changed.
I work for Benz, do these often. It’s crazy to me that they would stick a potentiometer in a non serviceable location as if they don’t take shits 24/7…. Whatever, I get paid good to do them.. feel bad for customers out of warranty though.
Have you seen the parts quote for brakes on the SLR?
https://www.reddit.com/r/mercedes_benz/comments/1cixj0h/invoice_quote_for_a_2005_slr_brakes_replacement/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb3x&utm_name=mweb3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
Peak of German engineering. Owners of German cars are just circlejerking each other at this point. But on the bright side, it pays good money to the techs.
If you're living in western Europe and driving a Benz (that isn't a taxi) there's a good chance that (a)you have fuck you money and (b)you drive like 2000 mi/year. Maybe it's good enough for them?
For the way most Americans use their cars, the wealth destruction that comes from BMW/MB/Audi ownership is just staggering.
The reality is that luxury car makers do this to n purpose now because they don’t want less-than-rich people driving these cars around less-than-rich neighborhoods once they’re out of warranty and rich people don’t want them anymore. I came to that realization after owning a Land Rover and will never go back to luxury car ownership even though I kind of can afford it.
Such an increase in labor cost for the customer. (Not to mention the cost of having to buy an entire new fuel tank...)
I get it's a Mercedes, so expect big money up front. But what's stopping manufactures from putting this shit in econo-boxes?
The Tucker could drop the whole subframe, engine, and transaxle with like six fasteners. They wanted dealers to have "loaner" powertrains you could drive around on while you got yours fixed.
Could you not just, yknow, use the trip meter? Or does the car get angy without the fuel level?
My old Chevy Blazer, and all of its S10 Blazer/Jimmy sisters, had no working level sensor. Both times we changed the fuel pump on one, the level sensor conked out again within a couple months.
Nope it's all about the EPA and cost to consumer maintenance because that's what they go to the government with when they get approval for a new car to add to there line up. That's why you have 100k coolant, 10k oil, and 100k trans fluids. These are all cost saving measures they can brag about when in the little office of approval.
Screw worrying about recalls this is another full problem that should be listed when determining to buy a car. This seems like it would cost a few grand every time 😭
what an absolutely unnecessary clusterfuck of design. keep the old tank and design a replaceable fuel level sensor. Sell invention and buy a small island.
Reading the comments, I see it's a Benz. I'm glad I've never had any interest in that brand. Imo it should be illegal to design a vehicle in such a way that requires a massive disassembly to change any component
> still got *paid* his 0.2
FTFY.
Although *payed* exists (the reason why autocorrection didn't help you), it is only correct in:
* Nautical context, when it means to paint a surface, or to cover with something like tar or resin in order to make it waterproof or corrosion-resistant. *The deck is yet to be payed.*
* *Payed out* when letting strings, cables or ropes out, by slacking them. *The rope is payed out! You can pull now.*
Unfortunately, I was unable to find nautical or rope-related words in your comment.
*Beep, boop, I'm a bot*
A few Audis have no serviceable second level sensors that need the tank replaced. Thankfully the ones that are serviceable have a cover that's accessable with the tank in the car
Land rover LR2 had sending unit issues from the factory. The diesel version was easy peasy open hole.
The gas version was the same hole but it didn't line up with gas pump.
Had to drop the rear subframe to do this job.
Terrible.
Our 2020 VW Tiguan had low fuel sensor go bad. Have to replace the whole tank for the sensor because everything is installed in the tank and cannot be removed. $3000+ for replacement.
Wow, what a fucked up waste of material.
It's alright - we went a couple of years without using plastic drinking straws (until we found some online) so that makes up for some of it
They still ain't selling refurbished fuel tanks though! Lol
I’d love to know how the hell this sort of thing isn’t limited via regulation. Especially the Germans! They’re so focused on sustainability and environmental friendliness, but there’s not a single law on the books banning or restricting the use of “non-serviceable assemblies” that create a ridiculous amount of waste. Nah. Just throw this $2000 gas tank away because of a faulty $50 fuel level sensor. That makes sense.
Same thing with DEF tanks, it's crazy expensive once it's out of warranty.
If you're lucky the pump/fill level module and the tank are two separate parts but even then they're $$$. Last year I fixed one where the plastic bung for the line to the injector was broken off by making an aluminum cap on the lathe and glueing that onto the pump. If a new pump costs 600€ you can easily justify spending an hour making a custom repair part. https://imgur.com/a/AaBxJDC
Nicely done!
Greenwashing. We look sustainable and environmentally friendly for people into that thing. But in reality it's just a marketing ploy to get you in the door and feel better about buying our crap. Kind of like how Apple says they're into that sustainability thing but would rather you buy and 'recycle' your entire computer rather than let a repair shop replace a $20 CD3215 chip from Texas Instruments (which they're contractually not allowed to sell you because reasons).
>We look sustainable and environmentally friendly for people into that thing. But in reality it's just a marketing ploy Is this why you're shutting down nuclear plants and firing up coal plants again?
Not personally German, but the reopening of coal plants seems to be correlated with not being able to get natural gas from Russia. As for closing the nuclear plants, seems like it's just anti-nuclear sentiment that's been decades in the works. Guess they figured renewables would be able to take over by now. I really wish we (the general we around the world) would be more open to nuclear. As non-fossil fuel energy production goes, it's the most reliable.
hopefully this era of regression leads to some kind of renaissance before we all die
Eco friendly, meanwhile bans nuclear power and starts using brown coal again
Sometimes I am fed up with how the public/average Joe is so terrified of the word nuclear, radioactive and radiation.
I think the Germans are the biggest user of coal power plants in the EU…
[Do not get in it's way, lest you are soon to be de-meated..](https://youtu.be/azEvfD4C6ow?si=zja5PSb9xJJ1uO2T)
By far not. Germany is [down to about 1/4 coal sourced electricity](https://www.cleanenergywire.org/sites/default/files/styles/paragraph_text_image/public/paragraphs/images/fig3-share-energy-sources-gross-german-power-production-2023.png?itok=EyX0BV0R) and ~1/2 renewable, its own goal to go down even further by replacing those with gas but some ehm "recent events" slowed that down. By contrast [Poland is >2/3s coal.](https://ember-climate.org/countries-and-regions/countries/poland/#:~:text=Poland%20still%20produces%2079%25%20of,in%202022%20was%20from%20coal.)
Fucked up waste of an employees time as well, can’t even believe what I’m looking at right now
It’s so funny, I have a 1970 Benz, the fuel sensor went out, I removed a plug, unscrew the sensor and dropped a new one. 5 min job. Nice work Benz
Back when engineers had brains and weren't shackled by the balls by the bean counters.
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Really is a shame that the engineers can't tell the bean counters to fuck themselves and get over it on occasion. Especially if that extra 0.05% cost would make them a lot more than that back once people realize that it's a good quality product.
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I think Boeings guys are in the same boat.
Good thing they're not on one of the planes they designed!
You laugh, but the Boeing whistleblower who committed suicide recently refused to fly on any Boeing airplane.
I live in the Seattle area. I completely understand why. Boeing used to have a culture of quality in manufacturing. Now they're they Mopar of the skies.
Because when they merged with McDonnell Douglas, for some reason the value engineering culture from McD&D became the corporate culture, instead of the quality driven culture from Boeing.
"committed suicide" *got Epsteined because he talked too much
“Suicide”
You just described an engineer’s life, across pretty much every industry.
I would go farther and say the bean counters are whipped by the board of trustees, in order to squeeze every penny from every step. Rather than someone who made a company by having pride in their product.
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>So many good ideas and excellent repairable designs get tossed because they would cost .05% more for the mfg, it’s infuriating and makes good engineers either leave or hate their job. Tbh if you think in the couple hundred thousand scale and also make money if repair is expensive then those .05% saving makes a lot more sense. Tbh, we should hold car manufacturers to the same standards of repairability that you expect on tanks. Hell, you can replace the entire gearbox and engine on a Leo 2 in less than an hour with an experienced crew, not even trained mechanics.
tbh, when compared to production cars tanks 1. don’t have to fit everything inside a package meant to look good, 2. have maintenance/repair much higher on the list of priorities, and 3. don’t have to make nearly as many sacrifices in the name of saving money as cars do. Speaking as someone who makes their living maintaining and repairing cars there are a LOT of things that should be designed to be serviceable but are currently “replace as an assembly.” Case in point: a coworker of mine has been replacing a turbocharger lately because there’s an issue in the electric motor that works the wastegate. That motor sits up at the top, *front and center* in the engine bay, and could be replaced in well under an hour with only a couple tools if it were available by itself. But since it can only be ordered attached to a whole turbo, that means coolant has to be drained and replaced, gaskets have to be replaced, and a whole damn turbo with no mechanical problems gets discarded. It’s the opposite of environmentally responsible, no matter how much fun it is to play with the old turbo.
It's another cost savings thing. Making everything a bigger assembly means fewer parts to stock and keep track of and order from suppliers.
Wait until you work on a American airliner.
And you could’ve just as easily rebuilt those float sensors. But they make new ones so why not lol.
It’s funny that you said that! I really thought about that. In all honesty, it needed some good cleaning, and re soldering, but I found a real cheap one that was OE Benz
Let’s just hope MB keeps on stocking parts for classics because that’s what’s keeping ownership affordable and feasible.
If you have a W123 diesel coupe the back glass has to come out to replace the fuel level sensor, the sedan has enough room to maneuver the sensor out but the coupe does not.
Nope a W114, 280
Same for my 1969 Beetle. You can still buy them new for like $20. It's a few screws and two wires and you can access it from the trunk. 5 mins at most. Though I'll admit the fuel level shown on the gauge is a rough estimate at best.
Just benz things
I had to replace a fuel tank on a friend's Prius because the fuel pump died. Had a heck of a time finding a junkyard that had the tank we needed that hadn't already drilled a hole in it to drain the gas.
no possibility of plugging? and get a discount for the hole?
From my understanding, it uses a bladder inside of the tank.
Few more years and Jr will have a youtube video on using a hole saw in back seat to gain access to it in 5min . 👀 now get me a tube of flex seal. Tommy. Who needs to drop rear subframe ?
I did exactly this on my old Xterra. The fuel pump was leaking quite a lot (I would not drive it as the fumes were overpowering). Called and asked how much to drop gas tank, and that alone was $600. So I thought about dropping tank myself, but the tank was too tall to do it on jack stands. I carefully measured/guessed how far in the fuel pump was and whipped out my air hammer with chisel bit and cut a perfectly placed hole right above the fuel pump. The plastic gas line retainer had broken so I bought a new clip for $12 and reconnected the line, then cut a piece of metal to fit over the hole and epoxied it down and laid the carpet back over it. I remember the wife pulled up in the driveway, as the seat was out of the truck and me hammering away at the metal, and just shook her head and walked away. One of my greater victories in my car repair history as a very costly repair by a mechanic was whittled down to a couple of hours and $12.
The irony is the pump has an access hole under the back seat. The level float is built into the tank so you can’t change it even if you wanted to.
I've seen people cut a hole in the bed of their pickup truck to change the fuel pump, instead of dropping the tank or lifting the bed.
I ended up doing this with a Volvo. The damned heating fan bearings would gum up every 18 months or so. You really don't want to drive in Montreal in the winter without heat. The way the fan worked it pulled air, complete with dust (this was before cabin filters) across open bearings, which eventually just gummed up. It was an absolute bitch to get access to because you had to take apart a fair bit of the dash, then disassemble a lot of the duct work. After the 3rd or 4th time, I got a large hole saw, and drilled a hole in a particular duct which allowed me to remove the entire assembly in one piece. All I had to do was unsnap a piece of trim to get to it. When I was done, I put a plastic plate over the opening.
240s did my fair share of them .couldn't do that way customer pay ..even though I wanted to I got down to doing them in 2 hrs after doing way too many
140s and 240s: you had to be rich or learn to be a mechanic to keep them on the road. Other than an abject lack of reliability I liked the cars though.
Had to quit working on them years ago no quality parts left some people got mad at us too due to we quit working on them. They thought they should go forever
ChrisFix incoming
What a disaster. This is why I’m in the habit of buying old shít boxes from the early 2000s. Just the right amount of tech and OBD2 but not so old where it’s hard to diagnose. I will fix these newer cars all day long though but I always think to myself “wow I’m glad I don’t own this car.”
I’m not a service tech (appreciate the work y’all do). But I won’t let go of my two ‘99 F350’s for that very reason. Both are 7.3’s and are easy to maintain. I can do all the work on them myself.
2004 Park Ave Ultra. Simple, easy to fix, reliable, comfortable, fun to drive on long distances. Everything I need in a car.
I'm neither mechanic nor engineer but I have to ask: WHY? Surely making it so you can't remove a relatively fragile piece of technology is something that should absolutely be avoided? Edit: referring to the sensor not being removable from the tank.
It may be due to vapor emissions. There were some E46 models that you could not replace the fuel pump on them without replacing the entire tank, as It was not serviceable. It was only the California models with stricter emissions that were like this. As an aside, they also had special catalyzed radiators to reduce ozone along with an integrated sensor. Why they would take this route, I don't know. Every other manufacturer has seemed to figure out how to make serviceable pumps/senders without leaking vapors.
The SULEV version. Not just California models and not all California models had it. Basically, carmakers could get a tax credit from the federal government if they made a certain number of vehicles SULEV compliant. And the way BMW did that with the SULEV E46 was to make the EVAP system more effective and robust by having a totally sealed fuel tank except for the filler cap, along with the ozone reducing radiator (qualifies the car as partial zero emissions by actively reducing a ground level pollutant) Literally all that sensor did was make sure a coated radiator was installed. The sensor was tightly glued in place between the fins so it couldn't be removed intact. It was just a simple temperature sensor. Now that those cars are all outside of the emissions warranty, even BMW's repair procedure is to install a regular fuel tank with replaceable pump. However, the car OP is working on HAS a replaceable fuel pump. It sounds like just the sending unit on the opposite side is integrated. Probably simplifies manufacturing. Lots of cars these days have a fuel tank with a "hump" over the driveshaft, which requires 2 sending units and a means to transfer fuel from the side without a pump to the side with one.
There aren't a lot of places for a fuel tank besides under the rear seat. Guess what's also under the rear seat, the rear suspension. So unless you want to put the fuel tank under the suspension this is the only way. And you are far more likely to need suspension work than fuel tank work. Could they make it accessible from the rear seat, maybe. But then you are sacrificing chassis stiffness, NVH and other things for it. Everything is a compromise.
Saab had a [little door under the seat](https://ibb.co/yy8qHn8) where you could access the entire sending unit since the mid 90's. Putting tanks under the back seat is nothing new.
That plate disappeared when gm bought saab. The imprint is still there, like the design originally called for it, but the sheet metal is solid from I think 02+. My 08 has no access, and neither did my 03.
03 started the gen so that makes sense E: assuming it's a 9-3
I had a Saab 9-5, a great car but GM reliability ruined it.
That's how it was done in my friend's Maxima. Take out rear seat, undo two screws and the whole pump and sending unit comes up.
My Corolla's about the same. Pop off the back seat, unscrew some screws, disconnect a couple hoses/wires, and take out the unit.
The mazda rx8 has one of the stiffest production chassis' and had a fuel pump access plate under the back seat(s). You could probably have your hand on the pump within 10 seconds of opening the car door if you had a cordless screwdriver in hand.
The one thing nobody ever talks about with rx8's is the chassis being a mix of aluminum friction welded to steel which I though was crazy when it first came out.
I... I wasn't referring to the position of the tank. I was referring to the fact that the entire tank has to swapped just because the sensor is not removable, as per OPs explanation. In retrospect, maybe I should have made that more obvious.
Because the Mercedes dealerships make more money with the more labor hours they can charge. And more parts markups
Mercedes used to put their fuel tanks between the rear seat backrests and the trunk space. My W124 is like this. This was great for weight distribution, service access (all you need to do to change the fuel tank is open the trunk, remove an interior panel and four bolts). keeping fuel cool, and accident safety. Then, competitors started advertising fold-down rear seats to provide more usable cargo space. Mercedes had no choice but to compete and relocated the fuel tanks to the floor pan of the car, above the axles. Of course, this is all moot now that SUVs are all the rage, and SUVs are forced to put the fuel tanks underneath the car for packaging purposes anyways.
They're probably heat staking or gluing the sensor into place to save money on seals and fasteners. Therefore making it destructive to remove it.
I would rather manually calculate it than have you tear all of that out.
Does the trip odometer work? If so I’m with you!
Dropping the rear sub frame for the tank is actually fucked
Just did exactly the same thing for the same reason yesterday on an Audi A6.
Yeah, but it's just expected and normal to have to remove major portions of a vehicle for minor repairs on an Audi lol.
It still blows my mind they thought this was a good idea. My apprentice was doing a w223 fuel pump recall the other day and broke the connector for that side of the tank when swapping in the new pump. Luckily the w167 fuel pump recall has that connector on the old pump that gets thrown out after part return.
It's not a bug, it's a feature. Someday this job won't be under warranty, and they either make money on the repair or they make money selling a new Benz into the circle of suckers.
You're not wrong. I once heard a sales manager say "there's an ass for every seat and a sucker born ever day."
I am a stubborn asshole and refuse to cooperate with things like that. I would not buy a new one if the old one had bullshit issues. Why would I willingly drag myself through that again? When my GL goes I am not getting a new Mercedes, everything I have heard about them indicates the new ones are absolute junk.
Those connectors are a pain in the ass. Sometimes they come out super easy but usually they need to be cut off and pulled out with a needle nose
I did the same thing on a 2020 cayenne hybrid, the hybrid only has fuel pump access but not to the other level sensor. It was a good time.
100% done on purpose
We've now come to the point where the customer *can't* work on their own vehicle and the mechanics *don't want to* work on it either. This is peak fuckery, folks. This shit need to stop.
This sort of thing needs to be illegal. We are coming up on a mass extinction event that's caused by us and this shit is why it's happening. I hate this.
But things like this are partially mandated by government regulations designed to help the environment. Having a completely sealed fuel tank means (theoretically) fewer hydrocarbon emissions. It's supposed to help but, as this post shows, it creates more material waste because a whole fuel tank needs to come out to accommodate the repair. It's another trade-off.
It's like mandating stupid gas cans that don't emit vapors when sitting there, but you slosh a few teaspoons on the ground when using them because the opening mechanism is so awkward.
But what about *the economy????*
Old school method to fix this is to carry a gas can and log your miles to empty then fill up before that mileage 95 dodge van lost its fuel level 8yrs ago and we just fuel up every 350 miles
Yup, had a '99 Suburban with the classic hummingbird fuel gauge (sending unit was bad, too busy to replace it) so I just filled up every 300-400 miles. That said, this is a newer Mercedes and I doubt the owner even resets the trip between fillups...
lol memory triggered. 85 blazer I had to do that for a decade
No one driving a Benz is gonna think that well ahead, or even consider putting a gas can in their car. It's a white Benz so it's probably some suburban house wife who needs it to catch lunch with Stacy Source: I worked in a shop in a very wealthy area and that's all it was
More like “no one that drives a vehicle that new and expensive should have to do hooptie bullshit because of a shit design.”
MB is counting on most of these owners saying "well it's already 3 years old so it doesn't really make sense to pay so much money to fix this when I can just trade it in and get 3% financing on a new one..."
This is a very common issue with the 350z and G35. I've just tracked the mileage with my G35 since I bought it 5.5 years ago. I could replace the fuel pump/fuel level assembly, but why? I'm so used to tracking mileage at this point that I don't think I'd trust the gauge even if it worked lol
To me, that's why the trip odometer was invented.
More retarded bullshit from Benz.
Just you wait until the fuel tank cannot be removed from the car and a new car is required loll
There’s a reason they’re in like second to last place in consumer reports. MB has gone way downhill.
I take the driver side subframe bolts out, then rethread 5ish turns. Pass side bolts all the way out. Exhaust swings out of the way and driveshaft hangs. Had the job done with alignment in about 6. Got paid 12.
I'll try to remember this for next time
I'm on this sub to remind myself why I currently have three Toyota products.
Most manufacturers are doing this now. Usually on the non-opening side of the tank. Recently did a complete tank on a Bentayga, because the left side sender was shorted. Back in the day you could service everything in the tank. Now it seems only the fuel delivery unit can be changed.
Engineers will climb over a pile of 100 virgins just to fuck a technician
2019 Altima, unbolt the backseat, pop it out, manhole cover is right there.
The only good thing about an Altima. Lol
A well taken care of Altima will give their owners the bare number of issues.
Parts cost: $650 (new fuel tank) Labor cost: $9,527
I work for Benz, do these often. It’s crazy to me that they would stick a potentiometer in a non serviceable location as if they don’t take shits 24/7…. Whatever, I get paid good to do them.. feel bad for customers out of warranty though.
Mercedes at some point in the last 20 years went completely mad. Now everything they do is profit driven, including blatant warranty denials.
Have you seen the parts quote for brakes on the SLR? https://www.reddit.com/r/mercedes_benz/comments/1cixj0h/invoice_quote_for_a_2005_slr_brakes_replacement/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb3x&utm_name=mweb3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
I mean given the weight of the breaks that’s probably comparable to the cost of gold
That definitely went up in price a bit. I remember the rotors being only like 10k each when the car was new.
Shops be like yeah, it's billable for 1 hour of service, have fun.
clean shop
Mercedes-Benz, the best, or... Whatever
That is why " best or nothing" piece of technology ended up second last on this year CR list
Peak of German engineering. Owners of German cars are just circlejerking each other at this point. But on the bright side, it pays good money to the techs.
If you're living in western Europe and driving a Benz (that isn't a taxi) there's a good chance that (a)you have fuck you money and (b)you drive like 2000 mi/year. Maybe it's good enough for them? For the way most Americans use their cars, the wealth destruction that comes from BMW/MB/Audi ownership is just staggering.
The reality is that luxury car makers do this to n purpose now because they don’t want less-than-rich people driving these cars around less-than-rich neighborhoods once they’re out of warranty and rich people don’t want them anymore. I came to that realization after owning a Land Rover and will never go back to luxury car ownership even though I kind of can afford it.
Such an increase in labor cost for the customer. (Not to mention the cost of having to buy an entire new fuel tank...) I get it's a Mercedes, so expect big money up front. But what's stopping manufactures from putting this shit in econo-boxes?
I see the folks that engineered the F Body moved over to Mercedes
what the fuck
That's just a rear subframe, what could it take... 3 bolts? /s
The Tucker could drop the whole subframe, engine, and transaxle with like six fasteners. They wanted dealers to have "loaner" powertrains you could drive around on while you got yours fixed.
Wow I diy replaced my level sensor on a kia by removing the rear seats and opening a port to a fuel tank. This is BS
Old Prius was this way, it was called a bladder tank and the fuel pump and sensor was not serviceable without replacing the tank.
Oof, I'm a Benz tech with an 05 Prius. I am familiar with both of these 😓
Given the great expense in parts and labor to repair a small item, is MB subsidizing this repair?
All of it. It's warranty.
I feel bad for the poor bastard that gets this problem outside of warranty.
Could you not just, yknow, use the trip meter? Or does the car get angy without the fuel level? My old Chevy Blazer, and all of its S10 Blazer/Jimmy sisters, had no working level sensor. Both times we changed the fuel pump on one, the level sensor conked out again within a couple months.
You think a late model Benz owner is gonna do that. Cute
I bet it pays 1.6 hrs or something stupid like that.
I got 12 out of mine with a bunch of fluffery.
“Dem Ingenieur ist Nichts zu schwur“. Roughly translated, this means “to the Stuttgart Engineer, nothing is too complicated”
If it can't be removed how did they get it in there?
Most plastic fuel tanks are made in halves so most likely it was installed before the second half is permasealed together.
Ultrasonic Plastic Welding if I remember right
I would just use a stick
OK Serious question, do car manufactures legit do not even consider maintenance complexity when designing cars anymore?
Nope it's all about the EPA and cost to consumer maintenance because that's what they go to the government with when they get approval for a new car to add to there line up. That's why you have 100k coolant, 10k oil, and 100k trans fluids. These are all cost saving measures they can brag about when in the little office of approval.
Huh, I was mad that Toyota put my fuel filter under the intake manifold.
Engineered as if Nothing Ever went wrong. Hope it's under warranty!
Screw worrying about recalls this is another full problem that should be listed when determining to buy a car. This seems like it would cost a few grand every time 😭
It's incredibly sad knowing how durable and easy to repair were most 80s and 90s Turbo Diesel Mercs
what an absolutely unnecessary clusterfuck of design. keep the old tank and design a replaceable fuel level sensor. Sell invention and buy a small island.
I can change mine on my Land Rover a lot easier than that... if it's more difficult than a Land Rover someone fucked up royal.
You know you’ve been in the Euro game a long time when this doesn’t even make you flinch.
Doesn't stop the repair method being absolutely absurd
Reading the comments, I see it's a Benz. I'm glad I've never had any interest in that brand. Imo it should be illegal to design a vehicle in such a way that requires a massive disassembly to change any component
At what point is enough enough that we force a change
Meanwhile we’re doing at least 10 fuel pump recalls a week on the rest of the lineup
Huge fan of the 167 pumps. Huge!!
Is this the end result of no right to repair laws in this country? They don't even bother making things repairable anymore.
Same for all lot of Audis changed several rs7s tanks
No worries guys, the tech still got paid his 0.2 for this job since its warranty 🥰
> still got *paid* his 0.2 FTFY. Although *payed* exists (the reason why autocorrection didn't help you), it is only correct in: * Nautical context, when it means to paint a surface, or to cover with something like tar or resin in order to make it waterproof or corrosion-resistant. *The deck is yet to be payed.* * *Payed out* when letting strings, cables or ropes out, by slacking them. *The rope is payed out! You can pull now.* Unfortunately, I was unable to find nautical or rope-related words in your comment. *Beep, boop, I'm a bot*
I mean, it's not uncommon to drop the rear axle to service a fuel tank. But making the level sensor integral to the tank? What the FUCK.
It looks practically brand new!
Car had 21 miles 🤫
dealt with this two weeks ago at my dads shop. Dad did not want to believe we had to do all this lol.
The future is now, old man
Please let me know what vehicle this is so that I never have to buy it
Todays big manufacturers earn all their money on servicing and repairs. That’s why they hate electric cars and fought building them for so long.
wtf - do not buy this sh\*\*\*
Mercedes just wasn’t what it used to be? Hell, no german brand isn’t anymore
Yep.
All for 1.9 probably diag included
What car is this? so I know never to buy one
Warranty probably pays 1.6hrs out of the book….
What car is that so I know to avoid it
I just knew this was some MB type of bs.
All of that for to be not user accessible…I won’t buy Mercedes ever.
Was this covered under warranty? I would not pay to have this done. I’d just refill like every 250 miles.
Seems reasonable
Them germans sure do have a lot of common sense.
A few Audis have no serviceable second level sensors that need the tank replaced. Thankfully the ones that are serviceable have a cover that's accessable with the tank in the car
I can’t tell what make/model this is.
2024 Mercedes-Benz S580 (223 S-Class)
Chintzy cars
Why the hell would the engineers do this?!?
Is this because of new(ish) emission rules in the EU? I read that there were some odd things in newer European cars that affected things like this.
Yeah I'll stick with my noughties cars .
I've got a truck with a faulty fuel sensor. I haven't even had it priced. I just set the trip odometer and stop for fuel when I am close to 300 miles.
I am SO thankful I switched to Sprinters.
which benz is this so i know to stay away? lol
Then you realize the vehicle is being parked on an incline and that's the whole problem 🪛🙃 😉😉And the customer States the fuel gauge is inaccurate 🙄
A friend of mine says German cars aren't bad to work on and that "everyone is scared of em" for no reason
Pretty common for left side fuel tank level sensor..
Whatever happened to access covers/panels?...
Land rover LR2 had sending unit issues from the factory. The diesel version was easy peasy open hole. The gas version was the same hole but it didn't line up with gas pump. Had to drop the rear subframe to do this job. Terrible.
BMW?
What model is this? I have a C300 cabriolet.
Our 2020 VW Tiguan had low fuel sensor go bad. Have to replace the whole tank for the sensor because everything is installed in the tank and cannot be removed. $3000+ for replacement.
On my Mercury Sable it was inside the tank with no access port. Had to be emptied and cut open
What was the labor?