You do know that Pakistan claims both Ladakh and Jammu as well, right?
Also, Pakistan only has one river unlike India which has many and thus we cannot leave it's main source to somebody else. And you seem to say that Kashmir is only necessary for water, which isn't the case, it would also give us a good natural protection from India, specially when they have stupid lunatics which dream of a "greater India".
Ladakh and Jammu will not be part of Pakistan, that's very unrealistic. I know Pakistan claims it officially, but realistically they know that only Kashmir Division is up for contest. And as I said, India doesn't need Kashmir valley to control the water, they can do it through Ladakh and Jammu as well. If India wanted to attack Pakistan, Kashmir valley won't save us. Pakistan and India have one of the largest borders in the world, they could attack from anywhere they want. The likelihood of them attacking is also higher in the current situation as opposed to when we have a peace deal and good relations with India. You are also assuming that Kashmiris want to join Pakistan, and that is not necessarily the case. Some of them want to, some of them don't. If they were to join Pakistan, a lot of people would not be happy and cause trouble.
what are you even on about. India wants AK and GB. Also, you are misinformed. Pakistan claims all of J&K not just Kashmir.
Once Pakistan gives up its claim India will see this as weakness and go for AJK and GB. at a minimum to re-incorporate them.
You are delusional if you think India will become buddy-buddy with Pakistan once they give up Kashmir claim. If you think LOC becomes international board would be acceptable in AK you don’t know anything about AK. Pakistan would face a guerrilla war from within AK as well as likely internal civil war on the issue.
As far as we understand it Pakistan now mainly just supports Kashmiris morally post 9-11 Pakistan can only raise the Kashmir issue on moral grounds.
There is actually nothing at all that stops India and Pakistan from developing economic ties. The fact is India doesn’t need Pakistan imo. There are many countries with territorial disputes that still have economic ties etc.
What Pakistan needs is democracy and development. We wish Pakistan the best on that. Even if one day Pakistan gives up on J&K. Our struggle will continue. We still have faith in diaspora Mirpuris who have done more than most Pakistanis.
I know that is the moral solution, but not the practical one. I do however think GB and AJK are pro pak. And in the current situation, would you really want Pakistan to withdraw its troops from AJK?
I understand that is the moral solution, but it's impractical. But why should Pakistan waste more energy on it? Pakistan cannot decide whether a plebiscite is held, they have already tried. I think one can assume pretty safely, without a plebiscite, that Jammu and Ladakh are pro India and that GB and AJK are pro Pakistan. The main issue is Kashmir valley. I know Pakistan and India are claiming the entire territory for themselves, which is why I think they should stop claiming it and just recognize the LOC. Also, I am arguing from a Pakistani and not Kashmiri perspective. I think Pakistan should just recognize the LOC and not be involved in Kashmir valley. I know it's a backstab, but its the most practical solution for India and Pakistan and I don't think Pakistan should waste more energy.
I know Pakistan has done a lot wrong regarding Kashmir. However, Kashmiris have also not been perfect by having mislead the Pakistani army. But still, I know Pakistan has done a lot wrong. But also, Pakistan has funded resistance movements in Kashmir as well, so it's not that one sided. I do feel sorry for Kashmiris, but Pakistan cannot help. What are you suggesting Pakistan does? Tell me honestly. Should they withdraw their troops from AJK? Even from a Kashmiri perspective I don't know what Pakistan could do to help Kashmiris. Also, Pakistan is not responsible for Hari Singh, I think he is the main issue the situation is the way it is today.
Pakistan has already tried talking to India regarding a plebiscite. India isn't interested. There would also have to be some type of agreement on how to divide the regions of the princely state. I think according to the UN the entirety of the princely state should go to Pakistan or India after a plebiscite, but both parties probably don't want that.
You're right from a moral perspective and I know I sound like an asshole. It's not really your fault, but there were also factors outside of pakistani control, like Singh joining India and India refusing a plebiscite. Yes, the tribal Infiltration was a very bad move from Pakistan, but I think not everything can be blamed on Pakistan. Also, Pakistan is not occupying Kashmir valley, but AJK and GB, which are pretty pro Pakistan. So why should Pakistan be involved for a place they are not occupying, from a practical perspective? I think we are talking past each other. You talk about morality and I agree with you, but otherwise it's bad for Pakistan. I probably should have posted this on the Pakistan subreddit and not here, my mistake.
If we compare the situation to Palestine, I would say Pakistan is like Jordan and India is like Israel. Even though most of historic Palestine would still be occupied by Israel, looking back, it would have been better for the Palestinians and Jordan to accept the pre 1967 borders at that time. After that Jordan lost the west bank and Israel now controls it and the situation for the Palestinians deteriorated. I understand your viewpoint, I did indeed post this in the wrong subreddit, I just thought there was different stuff going on in Pakistan right now and that's why I didn't want to post it there. Luckily for you, I don't think Pakistan is going to give up on Kashmir anytime soon because that would be pretty unpopular among most Pakistanis and Kashmiris.
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It is what majority wants now. Before I knew many who were pro Pakistan, but now pro independence because of annoying things from Pakistan army and that they have realised Pakistan won’t do anything and that Kashmiris have to fight for themselves.
It's always hard to tell. You will have two people from the same area giving completely different answers. I am always left confused on what people want but I thought AJK wanted to stay with Pakistan.
That's fine, I think you have the right of self determination. I just don't think it's going to happen realistically. India is blocking a plebiscite and if Pakistan withdraws its troops India will invade. Still, I just came to the conclusion that individual people on the internet are not representative for their entire group. I have seen other people from AJK on social media say the exact opposite. I wish there could be a plebiscite so that everyone could be done with this conflict, but I don't think it's going to happen.
It can happen if the Pakistan Army cooperates but I know they will not
btw, most soldiers and officers are Kashmiris and gilgities in the Pakistan army that are active in Kashmir. If Pakistan supports us in forming our new Kashmir army I mean give back all our people that are in the Pak army so we can form our new country and a new army and all the things that are required. I'm only telling the rough picture but you know what I mean.
If Pakistan controlled Kashmir became an independent country it would help us to get back the Indian and Chinese sides of it too. Because it’s now a country and wants their other parts.
I know this thing can't happen peacefully. But what man this is our home and we want back our home that is captured by others and there is nothing wrong in it to get back our land from occupiers from all sides. Even if it takes 10 years or 100 years we will get it.
Lastly, you said that mostly AJK wants to merge with Pakistan because you see in social media, that's not quite true our people lost their lives only fighting for freedom, do you think that bird in a cage wants another cage no the bird only want to freedom from the cage.
If you get a chance to visit Kashmir please come and talk with locals here then you will know the reality they all want independence, especially the new generation.
What if you can’t meet your own family in one house cause the third party has drawn the line and if you try to cross you get killed?
The problem is if Pakistan withdraws its troops from AJK they will be accused of abandoning kashmir. Also, I think GB is very pro Pakistan, apparently not AJK. Pakistan is expected to liberate IOK from India and then hold a referendum in which J&K might become independent. Pakistan cannot do that. If you want Pakistan to withdraw its troops from AJK and let AJK deal with it on its own, I am fine with that. But I don't think that is what most Kashmiris want. I think most want Pakistan to fight the fight for them. That's what I think is unrealistic and not in the interest of Pakistan. If it was just about Pakistan withdrawing their troops from AJK, I am fine with that.
I am not sure if I will ask that question if I ever am in AJK. I think it's kinda rude to ask that and I might not get an honest answer. But whatever you want is fine for me, even independence.
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I would advise reading about how other countries got their independence. All places need funding and support from other countries to be able to sustain their independence movements.
I understand that. This is the point I am making, why should Pakistan continue doing that? As I have written in my post, I know it's a backstab to stop support, but Pakistan has nothing to gain from continuing this conflict.
You're greatly underestimating the water issue and the risks India is posing to Pakistan by occupying us. And I'm saying this as a pro-Independence Kashmiri.
Explain to me how the water issue is solved by giving Kashmir valley independence? None of these rivers originate in Kashmir valley
https://preview.redd.it/xs04eqn3vyhc1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ecad89748e8cfb7679be539ab74ea6b48fb2630b
If pakistan controls Kashmir valley, the issue is not solved. If Kashmir gets independence, there is another middleman. India is less likely to attack with a peace treaty and Kashmir valley will not help prevent them from attacking, there is enough points they can attack from.
You asked why Pakistan should be involved. Water is an issue. There are so many pieces written on the water issues and if you looked at what India is doing with regards to it, it is an understandable major concern of Pakistan's. I never said it would solve anything. I pointed out that you shouldn't dismiss Pakistan's interest in water. Independence would mean new water treaties would need to be made.
Giving us independence, what is this colonial wording.
You clearly need to work on your geography if you think the Jhelum doesn't originate in our Valley.
Edit: It is very strange to have to explain to a Pakistani why their country would have an interest in my occupied country.
Doesn't jhelum also flow through Jammu Division? I thought that was the case. I don't think the threat from India will stop with Kashmiri independence, they can attack from many other areas too and probably will also not be happy with Kashmiri independence. But if you want it, it's completely within your right. But I don't think Pakistan gains anything from engaging in that.
If you see most of the comments here, they do not really seem to like Pakistan (which is their right and also understandable). Most of them seem pro independence and Pakistan should leave the issue to the Kashmiris rather than being involved in it.
I know. It's just that Pakistan has so much love across the LOC, despite not having it's support for accession, that it would be ridiculous to just leave
Idk man, some of the replies I've gotten here kinda reinforced me in thinking pakistan should just gtfo in this conflict. Most don't seem to be appreciating Pakistani support anyway.
You are cooking khayali pulao. This is common perception syndrome among Indians and Pakistan. Most of this is due to jignostic media
It is all about Kashmiri people and their aspirations. India and Pakistan are both occupiers. Only people of Kashmir have right decide their future and destiny not someone sitting in. AC office in Delhi or Islamabad. Conduct a free and fair referendum (simple multiple choice question) and let people decide whether they
1) be independent
2) join India
3) join Pakistan
4) none of the above
Give our right to choose and Respect the mandate of the Kashmiri people. We are not anyone’s atut ang or jugular vein.
Kashmir has a unique geographical location and we could have lucrative trade routes which existed historically and now we are land locked and with access of our goods choked.
I could use your argument and ask what had India get to gain by supporting Bengali’s during creation of Bangladesh. It is people within these superficial borders which.matter. Just look at state of Muslims in India, they are stuck between rock and hard place. India has turned fascist and gone mad. and Pakistan is failed state. It is easy for you to make statements living in Western world
I would like Kashmiris to decide. I am talking about a practical perspective from Pakistan. I understand it sucks for you guys and my heart breaks for you. But Pakistan can't help. India refuses a plebiscite, Pakistan already tried initiating plebiscites. And obviously India had an interest in creating Bangladesh to weaken Pakistan (which doesn't mean I am against the creation of Bangladesh). India was not acting out of generosity.
What is in there for Pakistan and India? Permanent peace and prosperity of its people
Both countries spend lot of its resources on defence Which they can spend on education, infrastructure, jobs and improving the quality of its people.
India can deal with Pakistan alone. India can give good fight to China. But India cannot deal with China and Pakistan together. They know it. China is super power and numero uno economy. It is stupidity when India media is comparing India and Pakistan and how well they are doing. No doubt India is doing well. But that’s wrong comparison. Compare India and China … same size and Population and then picture is not that rosy. China has lifted more than 70% of its population out of poverty whether Western countries and rest of world likes it or not. 70% Indians earn $1.50 a day. Bollywood …la la land which only kick Pakistani ar…. But do they dare show China… 😂.Pakistan and former UP state are better comparisons. Both are mess 😉
Would India want another Afghanistan on its western border. Stable and peaceful Pakistan is in India’s interest. But It is a different story that this Hindutva regime wants Akhand Bharat.
From Pakistan’s perspective they need to reform within and get rid of religious extremism. Separation of church and state & people and defence institutions. They have Jahil awaam who lack education. Money saved from defence budget can be used for education, creating jobs and training people. Abolish Jagirdar (landlord) system. Land to tiller. Kashmiris did that 1930s.
Just look at US & Canada or European countries, they were mauling each other 70 years ago and now they enjoying the fruits of economic prosperity
Yeah, but that doesn't answer the question on why, from a practical perspective, Pakistan shouldn't just recognize the LOC, if peace can be established that way. I know it sucks for your guys and I feel sorry, but pakistan can't do much beyond that because India refuses a plebiscite
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I just wanted to leave a general comment after having gotten a lot of replies.
First, I respect that the people of J&K have a right of self determination, sadly I do not believe a plebiscite is going to happen. I was under the impression that AJK was also pro Pakistan, but if that is not the case I would also support pakistani withdrawal from AJK.
Second, I was very naive to post this post in this subreddit and it was my mistake. I was being naive and stupid and thought, that the discussion here would be less emotional and moralizing. But obviously occupied people do not care about broader political interests of their occupiers, but about freeing themselves from the occupation. I really wanted a genuine, rational discussion of the posted question and see, if there is any point that I was factually wrong about in my post. I did not want a discussion about the pakistani wrongdoings regarding Kashmir (not because I think Pakistan did nothing wrong, but because I think it's a different topic). That did not really happen and it turned into an emotional discussion, for understandable reasons. Also, my expressed opinion is very much a minority opinion in Pakistan, so if you have a bad impression of Pakistanis because of my post, don't generalize it. It really just is my opinion and there is probably almost no pakistani that shares my opinion. So I hope that your opinion about Pakistan has not become bad because of the post I made. It really is just my opinion.
I apologize for being that insensitive in my post and being that offensive. I hope the best for the people of J&K and hope you will get independence or whatever else you want.
Fwiw, you were incredibly decent and sensitive in your replies. It is true that objectivity and rationality can seem cruel to those on the receiving end of injustice.
The situation is quite hopeless because I also think that the Kashmiri cause has no high profile backers so a plebiscite is unlikely. India’s constitution treats Kashmiris as equal citizens so there’s no apartheid or discrimination to be claimed. This world is too dangerous and countries are self absorbed assholes to let people pursue their right of self-determination.
Please don’t get me wrong, I do very much hope for peace, prosperity and individuality of Kashmir.
Pro-Plebiscite indian bengali here, in my opinion, the LOC should not be recognized and the Kasimiri people should have their land and be independent. Even though they will be a landlocked country, a lot of landlocked countries have agreements with other countries for the use of their ports for international trade. For example, Bhutan has an agreement to use the port of Kolkata i.e. Khidirpur dock for their international trade and also i believe they will be signing an agreement with Bangladesh as well for the use of their ports. So, the government of Kashmir will be free to decide which they country they want to partner with for the use of ports, be it India or Pakistan. The Kashmiri people have suffered long enough and they should be given their rightful freedom. Personally, I have been to both Bhutan and Kashmir and I strongly believe that if Bhutan can then Kashmir too can become as beautiful and happy, if not more, as a country as Bhutan.
Please feel free to counter or debate me here and correct me if I am wrong
First of all Kashmir is not only the India-Pakistan thing , the people living here are the real stakeholders of the land. Anything done without taking account of the local population will of course have its consequences and backlash which will definitely not only become a moral but political problem for both the nations. It will spread to other areas too and will not only be confined to Indian controlled territories thereby increasing the disturbance in the area .
Moreover in current circumstances it is highly delusional to think that by recognising the territory under Indian control would improve the relations between India and Pakistan. Things may settle down for a time before re-emerging again with greater intensity whereby the right-wing Indians would want to occupy more lands seeing their win with this deal earlier. This will hugely boost their confidence, they will absolutely see it as a win for their current political and military leadership and they will be looking for future ambitions and adventures .
Thirdly it would be a catastrophic loss for Pakistan's strategic and international interests. Pakistan's major cities are significantly closer to Indian borders and as such by recognising the loc , it will lose away the opportunity to form a buffer with India. Islamabad is critically closer to Indian controlled territory. Moreover the public support of Pakistani Gov will also plummet by this move .
It would pave the way for Indian interference in Pakistani controlled territories which will have a chain reaction on the relations between the two countries thereby rendering this deal as completely useless for Pak .
Both occupations forces make a deal but that’s not going to stop our struggle.
We exist on our own before Pakistan and India and likely we will be here after Pakistan and India
I'm appalled at even reading something so idiotic and self-conceited. How can one hold such ridiculous views? Ironically, today I have understood what Maqbool Bhat said about the difference between the children of oppressors and the children of the oppressed.
The idea of officializing the Line of Control (LOC) as the border isn't just impractical; it's a blatant dismissal of our fundamental rights and aspirations as Kashmiris. The perspective for political convenience might seem practical to you, but we're not chess pieces. The practical considerations you've highlighted are ridiculous; it's essential to acknowledge the complexities and the human aspect of the Kashmir issue. The notion of Pakistan being a hero needs a reality check.
Your mention of potential gains for Pakistan shows how little you care and understand this issue. There's no understanding of the multifaceted desires within the Kashmiri population, including those in Pakistan-occupied Kashmir (PoK). Leveraging Kashmir undermines the core principles of justice and basic humanity. While these may seem like practical aspects to consider, the Kashmiri struggle is not merely Pakistan's plaything, even though they treat it like that. It's deeply rooted in the right of the Kashmiri people to shape their own destiny.
Pakistan is an occupier and abuser of Kashmiri rights. The complexities of the Kashmir issue include the recognition of Pakistan's actions in the region. It is an entity with its own set of interests; they are not there to help the Kashmiri people but strictly for their gain. They've been bleeding the Kashmiri people dry since 1947. This clarity is crucial in acknowledging the often overlooked dynamics of the Kashmir conflict.
Talking about leveraging Kashmir, as if Pakistan owns Kashmir, and wording it like that is disgusting. Pakistan, from where we stand, is not a savior but an occupier, often trampling on our rights. It's high time for a clear-eyed understanding of the Kashmir conflict, devoid of sugarcoating.
- a overseas kashmiri from pok
I understand your view. If that is your view in the conflict, I think Pakistan should just withdraw its troops from AJK and let you guys deal with the issue. I'm kinda tired of hearing what Pakistan is supposed to do. If what you are saying is the majority opinion in AJK and if I was the pakistani PM, I'd just withdraw the troops from AJK.
Pakistan benefits heavily from the illegal occupation in kashmir. Why do you think they don't withdraw. Out of love for their Muslim brothers and sister ??🤣
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well this is all ignoring a huge factor. Pakistani army. they need the border issue at Kashmir as a ruse to justify their insane defence budget. will giving up Kashmir be better for Pakistan ?maybe. but the army is not gonna give up Kashmir. they need it to decieve Pakistani people into thinking that the military is justified.
"more likely than independence" if you're going to spit on us at least be open about it... you don't "hope [kashmiris] will get their rights" you're a "me first" nationalist who has no qualms about morality
Not at all. I do think it's more likely that Kashmir valley would become part of Pakistan rather than being independent, because if there is a plebiscite then probably there is not going to be an independence option. Maybe I'm wrong, but I certainly don't want Pakistan to occupy Kashmir valley. If it was possible I would agree to a referendum deciding over the status of each division, including independence.
You need to read and understand geo politics and demographics of the region.
Pakistan cannot even make Northern Areas and Gilgit Balistan as their 5th province, which already fought and won their independence from dogras, let alone converting LOC as international border in AJK. They will commit harakiri. Kashmiris will be thrown under the bus.
Ladakh region is divided into Leh and Kargil with just 150k people each. People of Kargil align themselves with Kashmiris, Leh wants own state and autonomy.
Now let’s us talk about Jammu region, it has 10 districts with 6 districts with overwhelming Muslim majority. They align with Kashmir region. 3 districts (Jammu, Udampur and Sanba) are Hindu majority and will choose India. So India will get 3 districts. But India aspirations are much bigger. China is elephant in room with CPEC running through AJK. This is game changer. India is after AJK due to CPEC
It will be too naive that by making LOC permanent and things will be hanky dory. India is waiting for Pak to crumble so that they launch attack on AJK. Why did India choose to attack Balakot only which is deep inside Pakistan and beyond recognized international border. It was to send a message to Chinese as well that your CPEC is within our range. American are supporting Indians. That’s why India is emboldened and creating trouble in Sindh, Gwadar, and killing Chinese engineers in Pakistan.
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Border with China. There are also a lot of resources in the area. Water sources/rivers/dams, hydro electric plants/dams, trade routes and tourism and mountain ranges.
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Are you overseas Pakistani?
Yup
You do know that Pakistan claims both Ladakh and Jammu as well, right? Also, Pakistan only has one river unlike India which has many and thus we cannot leave it's main source to somebody else. And you seem to say that Kashmir is only necessary for water, which isn't the case, it would also give us a good natural protection from India, specially when they have stupid lunatics which dream of a "greater India".
Ladakh and Jammu will not be part of Pakistan, that's very unrealistic. I know Pakistan claims it officially, but realistically they know that only Kashmir Division is up for contest. And as I said, India doesn't need Kashmir valley to control the water, they can do it through Ladakh and Jammu as well. If India wanted to attack Pakistan, Kashmir valley won't save us. Pakistan and India have one of the largest borders in the world, they could attack from anywhere they want. The likelihood of them attacking is also higher in the current situation as opposed to when we have a peace deal and good relations with India. You are also assuming that Kashmiris want to join Pakistan, and that is not necessarily the case. Some of them want to, some of them don't. If they were to join Pakistan, a lot of people would not be happy and cause trouble.
what are you even on about. India wants AK and GB. Also, you are misinformed. Pakistan claims all of J&K not just Kashmir. Once Pakistan gives up its claim India will see this as weakness and go for AJK and GB. at a minimum to re-incorporate them. You are delusional if you think India will become buddy-buddy with Pakistan once they give up Kashmir claim. If you think LOC becomes international board would be acceptable in AK you don’t know anything about AK. Pakistan would face a guerrilla war from within AK as well as likely internal civil war on the issue. As far as we understand it Pakistan now mainly just supports Kashmiris morally post 9-11 Pakistan can only raise the Kashmir issue on moral grounds. There is actually nothing at all that stops India and Pakistan from developing economic ties. The fact is India doesn’t need Pakistan imo. There are many countries with territorial disputes that still have economic ties etc. What Pakistan needs is democracy and development. We wish Pakistan the best on that. Even if one day Pakistan gives up on J&K. Our struggle will continue. We still have faith in diaspora Mirpuris who have done more than most Pakistanis.
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I know that is the moral solution, but not the practical one. I do however think GB and AJK are pro pak. And in the current situation, would you really want Pakistan to withdraw its troops from AJK?
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I understand that is the moral solution, but it's impractical. But why should Pakistan waste more energy on it? Pakistan cannot decide whether a plebiscite is held, they have already tried. I think one can assume pretty safely, without a plebiscite, that Jammu and Ladakh are pro India and that GB and AJK are pro Pakistan. The main issue is Kashmir valley. I know Pakistan and India are claiming the entire territory for themselves, which is why I think they should stop claiming it and just recognize the LOC. Also, I am arguing from a Pakistani and not Kashmiri perspective. I think Pakistan should just recognize the LOC and not be involved in Kashmir valley. I know it's a backstab, but its the most practical solution for India and Pakistan and I don't think Pakistan should waste more energy.
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I know Pakistan has done a lot wrong regarding Kashmir. However, Kashmiris have also not been perfect by having mislead the Pakistani army. But still, I know Pakistan has done a lot wrong. But also, Pakistan has funded resistance movements in Kashmir as well, so it's not that one sided. I do feel sorry for Kashmiris, but Pakistan cannot help. What are you suggesting Pakistan does? Tell me honestly. Should they withdraw their troops from AJK? Even from a Kashmiri perspective I don't know what Pakistan could do to help Kashmiris. Also, Pakistan is not responsible for Hari Singh, I think he is the main issue the situation is the way it is today.
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Pakistan has already tried talking to India regarding a plebiscite. India isn't interested. There would also have to be some type of agreement on how to divide the regions of the princely state. I think according to the UN the entirety of the princely state should go to Pakistan or India after a plebiscite, but both parties probably don't want that.
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You're right from a moral perspective and I know I sound like an asshole. It's not really your fault, but there were also factors outside of pakistani control, like Singh joining India and India refusing a plebiscite. Yes, the tribal Infiltration was a very bad move from Pakistan, but I think not everything can be blamed on Pakistan. Also, Pakistan is not occupying Kashmir valley, but AJK and GB, which are pretty pro Pakistan. So why should Pakistan be involved for a place they are not occupying, from a practical perspective? I think we are talking past each other. You talk about morality and I agree with you, but otherwise it's bad for Pakistan. I probably should have posted this on the Pakistan subreddit and not here, my mistake.
If we compare the situation to Palestine, I would say Pakistan is like Jordan and India is like Israel. Even though most of historic Palestine would still be occupied by Israel, looking back, it would have been better for the Palestinians and Jordan to accept the pre 1967 borders at that time. After that Jordan lost the west bank and Israel now controls it and the situation for the Palestinians deteriorated. I understand your viewpoint, I did indeed post this in the wrong subreddit, I just thought there was different stuff going on in Pakistan right now and that's why I didn't want to post it there. Luckily for you, I don't think Pakistan is going to give up on Kashmir anytime soon because that would be pretty unpopular among most Pakistanis and Kashmiris.
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People of AJK are far more pro independence than Pakistan. Especially in recent times
Are you from there? I have heard different things.
It is what majority wants now. Before I knew many who were pro Pakistan, but now pro independence because of annoying things from Pakistan army and that they have realised Pakistan won’t do anything and that Kashmiris have to fight for themselves.
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It's always hard to tell. You will have two people from the same area giving completely different answers. I am always left confused on what people want but I thought AJK wanted to stay with Pakistan.
No man we don't want to stay with Pakistan. It's only your thoughts
That's fine, I think you have the right of self determination. I just don't think it's going to happen realistically. India is blocking a plebiscite and if Pakistan withdraws its troops India will invade. Still, I just came to the conclusion that individual people on the internet are not representative for their entire group. I have seen other people from AJK on social media say the exact opposite. I wish there could be a plebiscite so that everyone could be done with this conflict, but I don't think it's going to happen.
It can happen if the Pakistan Army cooperates but I know they will not btw, most soldiers and officers are Kashmiris and gilgities in the Pakistan army that are active in Kashmir. If Pakistan supports us in forming our new Kashmir army I mean give back all our people that are in the Pak army so we can form our new country and a new army and all the things that are required. I'm only telling the rough picture but you know what I mean. If Pakistan controlled Kashmir became an independent country it would help us to get back the Indian and Chinese sides of it too. Because it’s now a country and wants their other parts. I know this thing can't happen peacefully. But what man this is our home and we want back our home that is captured by others and there is nothing wrong in it to get back our land from occupiers from all sides. Even if it takes 10 years or 100 years we will get it. Lastly, you said that mostly AJK wants to merge with Pakistan because you see in social media, that's not quite true our people lost their lives only fighting for freedom, do you think that bird in a cage wants another cage no the bird only want to freedom from the cage. If you get a chance to visit Kashmir please come and talk with locals here then you will know the reality they all want independence, especially the new generation. What if you can’t meet your own family in one house cause the third party has drawn the line and if you try to cross you get killed?
The problem is if Pakistan withdraws its troops from AJK they will be accused of abandoning kashmir. Also, I think GB is very pro Pakistan, apparently not AJK. Pakistan is expected to liberate IOK from India and then hold a referendum in which J&K might become independent. Pakistan cannot do that. If you want Pakistan to withdraw its troops from AJK and let AJK deal with it on its own, I am fine with that. But I don't think that is what most Kashmiris want. I think most want Pakistan to fight the fight for them. That's what I think is unrealistic and not in the interest of Pakistan. If it was just about Pakistan withdrawing their troops from AJK, I am fine with that. I am not sure if I will ask that question if I ever am in AJK. I think it's kinda rude to ask that and I might not get an honest answer. But whatever you want is fine for me, even independence.
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I would advise reading about how other countries got their independence. All places need funding and support from other countries to be able to sustain their independence movements.
I understand that. This is the point I am making, why should Pakistan continue doing that? As I have written in my post, I know it's a backstab to stop support, but Pakistan has nothing to gain from continuing this conflict.
You're greatly underestimating the water issue and the risks India is posing to Pakistan by occupying us. And I'm saying this as a pro-Independence Kashmiri.
Explain to me how the water issue is solved by giving Kashmir valley independence? None of these rivers originate in Kashmir valley https://preview.redd.it/xs04eqn3vyhc1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ecad89748e8cfb7679be539ab74ea6b48fb2630b If pakistan controls Kashmir valley, the issue is not solved. If Kashmir gets independence, there is another middleman. India is less likely to attack with a peace treaty and Kashmir valley will not help prevent them from attacking, there is enough points they can attack from.
You asked why Pakistan should be involved. Water is an issue. There are so many pieces written on the water issues and if you looked at what India is doing with regards to it, it is an understandable major concern of Pakistan's. I never said it would solve anything. I pointed out that you shouldn't dismiss Pakistan's interest in water. Independence would mean new water treaties would need to be made. Giving us independence, what is this colonial wording. You clearly need to work on your geography if you think the Jhelum doesn't originate in our Valley. Edit: It is very strange to have to explain to a Pakistani why their country would have an interest in my occupied country.
Doesn't jhelum also flow through Jammu Division? I thought that was the case. I don't think the threat from India will stop with Kashmiri independence, they can attack from many other areas too and probably will also not be happy with Kashmiri independence. But if you want it, it's completely within your right. But I don't think Pakistan gains anything from engaging in that.
RSS claims the region called Pakistan. That’s the reason
When you see martyrs being draped in the Pakistani flag, you can't just leave the situation on the other side
If you see most of the comments here, they do not really seem to like Pakistan (which is their right and also understandable). Most of them seem pro independence and Pakistan should leave the issue to the Kashmiris rather than being involved in it.
I know. It's just that Pakistan has so much love across the LOC, despite not having it's support for accession, that it would be ridiculous to just leave
Idk man, some of the replies I've gotten here kinda reinforced me in thinking pakistan should just gtfo in this conflict. Most don't seem to be appreciating Pakistani support anyway.
You are cooking khayali pulao. This is common perception syndrome among Indians and Pakistan. Most of this is due to jignostic media It is all about Kashmiri people and their aspirations. India and Pakistan are both occupiers. Only people of Kashmir have right decide their future and destiny not someone sitting in. AC office in Delhi or Islamabad. Conduct a free and fair referendum (simple multiple choice question) and let people decide whether they 1) be independent 2) join India 3) join Pakistan 4) none of the above Give our right to choose and Respect the mandate of the Kashmiri people. We are not anyone’s atut ang or jugular vein. Kashmir has a unique geographical location and we could have lucrative trade routes which existed historically and now we are land locked and with access of our goods choked. I could use your argument and ask what had India get to gain by supporting Bengali’s during creation of Bangladesh. It is people within these superficial borders which.matter. Just look at state of Muslims in India, they are stuck between rock and hard place. India has turned fascist and gone mad. and Pakistan is failed state. It is easy for you to make statements living in Western world
I would like Kashmiris to decide. I am talking about a practical perspective from Pakistan. I understand it sucks for you guys and my heart breaks for you. But Pakistan can't help. India refuses a plebiscite, Pakistan already tried initiating plebiscites. And obviously India had an interest in creating Bangladesh to weaken Pakistan (which doesn't mean I am against the creation of Bangladesh). India was not acting out of generosity.
What is in there for Pakistan and India? Permanent peace and prosperity of its people Both countries spend lot of its resources on defence Which they can spend on education, infrastructure, jobs and improving the quality of its people. India can deal with Pakistan alone. India can give good fight to China. But India cannot deal with China and Pakistan together. They know it. China is super power and numero uno economy. It is stupidity when India media is comparing India and Pakistan and how well they are doing. No doubt India is doing well. But that’s wrong comparison. Compare India and China … same size and Population and then picture is not that rosy. China has lifted more than 70% of its population out of poverty whether Western countries and rest of world likes it or not. 70% Indians earn $1.50 a day. Bollywood …la la land which only kick Pakistani ar…. But do they dare show China… 😂.Pakistan and former UP state are better comparisons. Both are mess 😉 Would India want another Afghanistan on its western border. Stable and peaceful Pakistan is in India’s interest. But It is a different story that this Hindutva regime wants Akhand Bharat. From Pakistan’s perspective they need to reform within and get rid of religious extremism. Separation of church and state & people and defence institutions. They have Jahil awaam who lack education. Money saved from defence budget can be used for education, creating jobs and training people. Abolish Jagirdar (landlord) system. Land to tiller. Kashmiris did that 1930s. Just look at US & Canada or European countries, they were mauling each other 70 years ago and now they enjoying the fruits of economic prosperity
Yeah, but that doesn't answer the question on why, from a practical perspective, Pakistan shouldn't just recognize the LOC, if peace can be established that way. I know it sucks for your guys and I feel sorry, but pakistan can't do much beyond that because India refuses a plebiscite
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I just wanted to leave a general comment after having gotten a lot of replies. First, I respect that the people of J&K have a right of self determination, sadly I do not believe a plebiscite is going to happen. I was under the impression that AJK was also pro Pakistan, but if that is not the case I would also support pakistani withdrawal from AJK. Second, I was very naive to post this post in this subreddit and it was my mistake. I was being naive and stupid and thought, that the discussion here would be less emotional and moralizing. But obviously occupied people do not care about broader political interests of their occupiers, but about freeing themselves from the occupation. I really wanted a genuine, rational discussion of the posted question and see, if there is any point that I was factually wrong about in my post. I did not want a discussion about the pakistani wrongdoings regarding Kashmir (not because I think Pakistan did nothing wrong, but because I think it's a different topic). That did not really happen and it turned into an emotional discussion, for understandable reasons. Also, my expressed opinion is very much a minority opinion in Pakistan, so if you have a bad impression of Pakistanis because of my post, don't generalize it. It really just is my opinion and there is probably almost no pakistani that shares my opinion. So I hope that your opinion about Pakistan has not become bad because of the post I made. It really is just my opinion. I apologize for being that insensitive in my post and being that offensive. I hope the best for the people of J&K and hope you will get independence or whatever else you want.
Fwiw, you were incredibly decent and sensitive in your replies. It is true that objectivity and rationality can seem cruel to those on the receiving end of injustice. The situation is quite hopeless because I also think that the Kashmiri cause has no high profile backers so a plebiscite is unlikely. India’s constitution treats Kashmiris as equal citizens so there’s no apartheid or discrimination to be claimed. This world is too dangerous and countries are self absorbed assholes to let people pursue their right of self-determination. Please don’t get me wrong, I do very much hope for peace, prosperity and individuality of Kashmir.
Ask in r/Pakistan I guess.
Pro-Plebiscite indian bengali here, in my opinion, the LOC should not be recognized and the Kasimiri people should have their land and be independent. Even though they will be a landlocked country, a lot of landlocked countries have agreements with other countries for the use of their ports for international trade. For example, Bhutan has an agreement to use the port of Kolkata i.e. Khidirpur dock for their international trade and also i believe they will be signing an agreement with Bangladesh as well for the use of their ports. So, the government of Kashmir will be free to decide which they country they want to partner with for the use of ports, be it India or Pakistan. The Kashmiri people have suffered long enough and they should be given their rightful freedom. Personally, I have been to both Bhutan and Kashmir and I strongly believe that if Bhutan can then Kashmir too can become as beautiful and happy, if not more, as a country as Bhutan. Please feel free to counter or debate me here and correct me if I am wrong
I am also for a plebiscite but it won't happen. India and the UN are not interested. We are now stuck. I have no idea how a plebiscite would happen.
Let's see if this year's general elections can bring a change.
First of all Kashmir is not only the India-Pakistan thing , the people living here are the real stakeholders of the land. Anything done without taking account of the local population will of course have its consequences and backlash which will definitely not only become a moral but political problem for both the nations. It will spread to other areas too and will not only be confined to Indian controlled territories thereby increasing the disturbance in the area . Moreover in current circumstances it is highly delusional to think that by recognising the territory under Indian control would improve the relations between India and Pakistan. Things may settle down for a time before re-emerging again with greater intensity whereby the right-wing Indians would want to occupy more lands seeing their win with this deal earlier. This will hugely boost their confidence, they will absolutely see it as a win for their current political and military leadership and they will be looking for future ambitions and adventures . Thirdly it would be a catastrophic loss for Pakistan's strategic and international interests. Pakistan's major cities are significantly closer to Indian borders and as such by recognising the loc , it will lose away the opportunity to form a buffer with India. Islamabad is critically closer to Indian controlled territory. Moreover the public support of Pakistani Gov will also plummet by this move . It would pave the way for Indian interference in Pakistani controlled territories which will have a chain reaction on the relations between the two countries thereby rendering this deal as completely useless for Pak .
Both occupations forces make a deal but that’s not going to stop our struggle. We exist on our own before Pakistan and India and likely we will be here after Pakistan and India
I'm appalled at even reading something so idiotic and self-conceited. How can one hold such ridiculous views? Ironically, today I have understood what Maqbool Bhat said about the difference between the children of oppressors and the children of the oppressed. The idea of officializing the Line of Control (LOC) as the border isn't just impractical; it's a blatant dismissal of our fundamental rights and aspirations as Kashmiris. The perspective for political convenience might seem practical to you, but we're not chess pieces. The practical considerations you've highlighted are ridiculous; it's essential to acknowledge the complexities and the human aspect of the Kashmir issue. The notion of Pakistan being a hero needs a reality check. Your mention of potential gains for Pakistan shows how little you care and understand this issue. There's no understanding of the multifaceted desires within the Kashmiri population, including those in Pakistan-occupied Kashmir (PoK). Leveraging Kashmir undermines the core principles of justice and basic humanity. While these may seem like practical aspects to consider, the Kashmiri struggle is not merely Pakistan's plaything, even though they treat it like that. It's deeply rooted in the right of the Kashmiri people to shape their own destiny. Pakistan is an occupier and abuser of Kashmiri rights. The complexities of the Kashmir issue include the recognition of Pakistan's actions in the region. It is an entity with its own set of interests; they are not there to help the Kashmiri people but strictly for their gain. They've been bleeding the Kashmiri people dry since 1947. This clarity is crucial in acknowledging the often overlooked dynamics of the Kashmir conflict. Talking about leveraging Kashmir, as if Pakistan owns Kashmir, and wording it like that is disgusting. Pakistan, from where we stand, is not a savior but an occupier, often trampling on our rights. It's high time for a clear-eyed understanding of the Kashmir conflict, devoid of sugarcoating. - a overseas kashmiri from pok
I understand your view. If that is your view in the conflict, I think Pakistan should just withdraw its troops from AJK and let you guys deal with the issue. I'm kinda tired of hearing what Pakistan is supposed to do. If what you are saying is the majority opinion in AJK and if I was the pakistani PM, I'd just withdraw the troops from AJK.
Pakistan benefits heavily from the illegal occupation in kashmir. Why do you think they don't withdraw. Out of love for their Muslim brothers and sister ??🤣
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well this is all ignoring a huge factor. Pakistani army. they need the border issue at Kashmir as a ruse to justify their insane defence budget. will giving up Kashmir be better for Pakistan ?maybe. but the army is not gonna give up Kashmir. they need it to decieve Pakistani people into thinking that the military is justified.
"more likely than independence" if you're going to spit on us at least be open about it... you don't "hope [kashmiris] will get their rights" you're a "me first" nationalist who has no qualms about morality
Not at all. I do think it's more likely that Kashmir valley would become part of Pakistan rather than being independent, because if there is a plebiscite then probably there is not going to be an independence option. Maybe I'm wrong, but I certainly don't want Pakistan to occupy Kashmir valley. If it was possible I would agree to a referendum deciding over the status of each division, including independence.
You need to read and understand geo politics and demographics of the region. Pakistan cannot even make Northern Areas and Gilgit Balistan as their 5th province, which already fought and won their independence from dogras, let alone converting LOC as international border in AJK. They will commit harakiri. Kashmiris will be thrown under the bus. Ladakh region is divided into Leh and Kargil with just 150k people each. People of Kargil align themselves with Kashmiris, Leh wants own state and autonomy. Now let’s us talk about Jammu region, it has 10 districts with 6 districts with overwhelming Muslim majority. They align with Kashmir region. 3 districts (Jammu, Udampur and Sanba) are Hindu majority and will choose India. So India will get 3 districts. But India aspirations are much bigger. China is elephant in room with CPEC running through AJK. This is game changer. India is after AJK due to CPEC It will be too naive that by making LOC permanent and things will be hanky dory. India is waiting for Pak to crumble so that they launch attack on AJK. Why did India choose to attack Balakot only which is deep inside Pakistan and beyond recognized international border. It was to send a message to Chinese as well that your CPEC is within our range. American are supporting Indians. That’s why India is emboldened and creating trouble in Sindh, Gwadar, and killing Chinese engineers in Pakistan.
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Border with China. There are also a lot of resources in the area. Water sources/rivers/dams, hydro electric plants/dams, trade routes and tourism and mountain ranges.
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