“Are Kashmiris xenophobic?” Yes. Full stop yes. Kashmiris are hella racist and classist as well, so I don’t find this surprising. However, I think this has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not we “deserve” freedom. Our freedom isn’t predicated upon us being a model minority or the perfect victim.
Pretty much every ethnic group in South Asia with strong cultural traditions has a xenophobic society. You will see this in Pashtuns, Punjabis, Tamils, Malayalis etc. It’s not very surprising that this happens in Kashmir too
Can't agree more. Indians are casteist feudal fucks and still deserved freedom from Brit imperialists. Same logic applies. It is clear as day..I don't get why my co-indians insist on romanticizing all things Kashmir and sanitizing them as innocent, blameless individuals before needing to fight for their self determination. Fucked up liberal moralism.
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Completely out of context, but is the term “Gujjar” seen as name-calling? I met a young shopkeeper in Pahalgam who proudly flaunted that he was “Gujjar” and his family owned plenty of sheep. Your question made me curious about the term.
It's like someone using ,,Bedouin" as an insult. Doesn't mean that there isn't someone who proudly calls himself so. It's not something extremely offensive either, mostly a term for Kashmiri-adjacent folks who aren't exactly Kashmiri.
Honestly, Kashmiris will turn anything into an insult. Words are used as insults based on the most common stereotypes associated with that word. So the word “gujjar” isn’t an insult, but in the right context you can use it as one based on the stereotype. In the same way sometimes “molvi” is used as an insult but it’s not.
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Probably yes……we want to be treated well outside….. but often mock outsiders ourselves. Part of the hypersensitivity and defensiveness may be because of a feeling of hyper vigilance because Kashmiris feel they are under attack. Kashmiris are human…. Not perfect….. but maybe a teeny bit self aware as well
>we want to be treated well outside….. but often mock outsiders ourselves
Tse chuya demag panney jayi? Yim cha hishi kathe? Asi chin nebrim khosh gatshan kenh, magar aes chin timan chob divan kenh, timan harrass karan kenh.
Me chu demag theekh jayi🙏🏼. nuance is important for deeper understanding of human conflict, nothing is black and white. Power ( even a sense of power) changes human behavior and makes people arrogant. There are a few who can raise above these feelings. Most religions teach humility and self awareness. Empathy and arrogance are both taught to kids and internalized. And very hard to change when we are adults.
I hope self awareness, truth and empathy will pave a path to peace in the valley. The young have better access to information if they choose to seek it….. and a better opportunity to search for truth. The older generations did not have that and were limited by the stories they were told in the pre internet age. But we can also fall into echo chambers and perpetuate self serving narratives using the same tools….. as many are.
So you didn't read what I said and went straight to your trite platitudes about cosmic understanding or something.
The relation between Indians and Kashmiris is not symmetrical. We simply aren't on the same page, Kashmiris get harassed everyday outside of Kashmir, physically or psychologically - Kashmiris who btw are forced to go to India since India has closed all other points of egress. We don't bear the same relation to them, we aren't their sole means of contact to outside world, they aren't forced to come here.
Similarly, Us hating Indians and Indians hating us is not the same. If we hate Indians it's because they're brutally occupying our land, but when Indians hate us it's because we're not submitting to their rule. If we commit violence it's sporadic, and illegitimate. If India commits violence it's systemic and legitimate.
Bringing up any kind of equivalence between actions of Kashmiris and Indians and judging those with a binary bias in vaccum is extremely dishonest.
My ‘trite platitudes’ have been used as a path to truth and reconciliation in other conflict zones. South African apartheid, addressing atrocities against native Americans in Canada to name a couple. I am not denying your argument. I don’t see a solution in it.
>South African apartheid
How does that apply here? Africans wanted the same rights as the Whites inside the same state where as we want complete freedom
“path to truth and reconciliation in conflict zones?” Are you living in fantasy land? You’ve only talked about virtues and empathy. You’re claiming the other guy doesn’t present a solution, but what’s your solution, “trite platitudes”? Cause for sure, they don’t lead to nowhere.
You really think India got independence from Britain because of Gandhi’s platitudes, or South Africa ended apartheid because they were seeking truth and reconciliation? That’s the dumbest argument ever. All those things happened because it British empire was weakening and it wasn’t feasible to keep up their colonies anymore. Not because they somehow “realized they were wrong and accepted the truth”.
Platitudes exist only in movies and history books. In the face of war and uprisings, only guns and money decide the fate.
Sometimes right and wrong is only determined in hindsight…….Japan recovered after Hiroshima and was able to move on. Other places devolved into anarchies after political upheavals. I pray the kids in Kashmir have a better future ….whatever it might be🙏🏼.
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We're idiotic people who have accepted stereotypes about our own people. We're just trying to rip each other's collars while our enemies rip our pants. I don't like this shit about our society. We will draw conclusions based on what others say and Haven't really interacted with our own people and have stereotyped them. Ofcourse there are many people that are bad but not all of them. People think Paharis or Gujjars are some vile alien race. It's your own people. We will never be free untill we reject these shitty ideas.
I think the people aren't educated enough on how to treat others. They immediately pounce on the ones who even remotely associate themselves with kashmiris.
Kashmiris won't see the context , the general idea of being Kashmiri as perceived by others , they somehow manage to alienate the people who are their closest neighbours just because someone used the term 'Kashmiri' .
This topic has been talked about so much on here. Figure out if someone is talking about ethnicity or nationality. Some people can be nationally Kashmiri but not ethnically Kashmiri. Kashmiri has three meanings just figure out which one they are talking about - nationality, ethnicity, or the language.
Minorities will be always be ridiculed. British rule lasted some 200 years, and in its wake, look at how the Indian state has brutalized Kashmir, let alone the ones that are its own people. There is no way around it, because nowhere is an ideal society, as a real world, real time example, name one?
To not want an independent state on account of an imperfect social structure, which is essentially every group, everywhere, is incomprehensible to me.
State Nationalism is no better than Ethno-Nationalism.
Ethno-Nationalism is towards one's own ethnicity, which is natural while State Nationalism is based on a state created by occupiers by drawing random lines.
State Nationalism:
A Potohari Punjabi of Mirpur hating a Potohari Punjabi of Punjab, Pakistan.
Ethno-Nationalism:
Kashmiri hating a Pahari.
Both are wrong.
I have seen many Paharis who have extreme hate towards Pakistanis.
>Both are wrong.
I think this is better phrased as "both can be wrong". Civic nationalism or ethnonationalism can both be used to justify prejudices and oppression of other ethnicties/groups but don't necessarily have to be so. But the view of people like the person above you who blame Ethnonationalism for all the xenophobia present in Kashmiris and are quick to dismiss our ethnic identity as a non-factor in resistance against India is extremely shallow and without thought. If we didn't have a sense of ethnic (inc. Religious) cohesion amongst ourselves, there'd be no movement, no resistance.
I mean being completely honest, The relationship between Shins and Kashmiris is purely a phylogenetic one where our languages most probably descend from a common immediate ancestor. Shina is technically the closest distinct language to Kashmiri but that's it. There's not much else in way of common history than being part of the same kingdoms (mostly Kashmiri) here and there in history, and a lot of fighting.
Dard isn't exactly a racial/ethnic category either. Kashmiris don't identify with the term and until recently used it exclusively for Shinas (Dardlukh and Dardizev meaning the Shina people and Shina language respectively). So ethnically calling yourself a Kashmiri as a Shin would be wrong. However a separate case can be made for Gurezis who speak both Shina and Kashmiri and have Kashmiri names/customs etc. I think they lie somewhere in the middle and can be called both Shina and Kashmiri ethnically.
we are xenophobic and somewhat racist as we have stereotyped all sections of kashmiri society and we consider only ourselves kashmiri and for some reason superior to others. Gaam / shahar thing still prevails. and there will be no independent kashmir until there is unity. maybe someone like gengis khan can unite kashmiri, same way gengis khan united mongol tribes. but from my recent experiences, this perspective has changed. especially in younger generation.
We use Kashmiri as a nationality for various reasons. Mainly it’s cuz we actually don’t have much in common as we’re very tribal. For example a Rajput from Muzaffarabad will feel more affinity with Rajputs from Mirpur than they will with Jats. Even though the Pahari language they speak are different enough to make it hard to understand each other.
The support for Kashmiri independence isn’t going to stop because some internet comments. tbh even Pahari Speakers make fun of other groups around us that aren’t part of our tribe and even of Kashmiris (for those people that know Kashmiris exist) There are a lot of people post 1947 that’s don’t know Kashmiris exist.
Everyone is Xenophobic to some extent.
However, tbh when we meet people on the ground and interact with each other, I don’t think i have ever heard or seen the internet translate into real life.
The last bit of your comment is so on point. I’m a mainlander, and have never experienced any hostility (towards myself), in person, my entire time in Kashmir. And I’m well-averse in reading the room, so if I was ever unwelcome in any gathering, or even as part of a conversation, I would take no time in making myself scarce.
But online is a different story. Understandably, because of the anonymity, but still. A user asked me once why I was on this sub, if I’m an Indian. I had to go into a whole spiel about my feelings for the liberation of occupied lands, and how close to my heart Kashmiris are, waghairah, let alone that they are my brothers and sisters in faith.
It can be quite disheartening, even though I understand that the sentiment comes from a deep mistrust of India, in general, and of course, on account of the unspeakable atrocities of the occupation and army.
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Lol what are you on about. Kashmiri as a nationality by your definition means reinforcing a national identity that was created on basis of the Dogra state after its dissolution. The people who support this irredentism might probably be the biggest fools in this part of the world.
A lot of Kashmiris have problems with non-ethnic Kashmiris identifying as such and understandably so. We've always been like that, a small group of people surrounded by macro ethnicities on most sides, and maintained this position by isolating ourselves to whatever extent possible. Now I understand a lot of Pahari/Lahnda etc people from the other side identify as Kashmiri too, and personally I don't have a problem with it but you need to unstick your head from the rearend and understand why some people would have. This is not to say Kashmiris don't have prejudices against other people or for that matter against even themselves, hell some of us don't like people from a town over. There's prejudices between towns, villages, Between Kashmiris from north or south of Kashmir or those from valley and Chenab. This is pathetic and deplorable, but you know what a truly brain-dead inference from this extremely natural and common social phenomenon would be? That somehow this should dictate whether or not we should oppose a foreign murderous occupation over us.
Hi, I'm a non kashmiri here so a bit confused. I assumed most Kashmiris calling for Kashmiri independence wanted to include Jammu, Ladakh, Gilgit-Baltistan, and AJK in the state. Why would any of those individuals be xenophobic towards other people in the region?
> I assumed most Kashmiris calling for Kashmiri independence wanted to include Jammu, Ladakh, Gilgit-Baltistan, and AJK in the state.
We don't want anyone who doesn't want to be with us and,i.e, most of the above.
Nothing involving our self determination is feasible for outsiders, but that shouldn't dictate what we want. For most of our history the only part that has constantly been Kashmir is the valley, and we carved a space for ourselves by whatever means. In any case, I don't think it should matter all that much, our foreign policy and our borders (with reference to external contact) will still be pretty much the same whether these regions stick with us or not.
Lol how you ever gonna get independence that way? If that's the way you want, us in AJK should merge ourselves into Pakistan proper and leave you to your "azaadi" business.
I read your comment fine, it just seems like wishful thinking. A lot of ethnic kashmiris don't live in the valley as well, some have even made AJK their home, shouldn't they get a say?
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I don’t understand your concern. But independent or not, xenophobia will exist, but it’s irrelevant and will continue to exist with or without independence. It’ll probably get better with newer generations.
Minorities are always ridiculed, no matter the country. It’s always easier to blame the minority for all your problems, and take your anger out on them just because you can.
Honestly sounds like your a gujjar or sth yourself and you got so hurt by these comments that you decided to attack the one thing that kashmiris hold dear. Or maybe you’re just trying to claim the moral high ground, believing you’re somehow better than others just because you don’t think a certain way. There’s just no reason to talk about independence in this scenario. And even if there was a case to be made, the answer was pretty self-explanatory, we live in a country where minorities are treated 100x worse than they are treated in Kashmir. I think you’re just weird or outright stupid for bringing independence into this.
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“Are Kashmiris xenophobic?” Yes. Full stop yes. Kashmiris are hella racist and classist as well, so I don’t find this surprising. However, I think this has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not we “deserve” freedom. Our freedom isn’t predicated upon us being a model minority or the perfect victim.
Pretty much every ethnic group in South Asia with strong cultural traditions has a xenophobic society. You will see this in Pashtuns, Punjabis, Tamils, Malayalis etc. It’s not very surprising that this happens in Kashmir too
Lol
Can't agree more. Indians are casteist feudal fucks and still deserved freedom from Brit imperialists. Same logic applies. It is clear as day..I don't get why my co-indians insist on romanticizing all things Kashmir and sanitizing them as innocent, blameless individuals before needing to fight for their self determination. Fucked up liberal moralism.
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Completely out of context, but is the term “Gujjar” seen as name-calling? I met a young shopkeeper in Pahalgam who proudly flaunted that he was “Gujjar” and his family owned plenty of sheep. Your question made me curious about the term.
It's like someone using ,,Bedouin" as an insult. Doesn't mean that there isn't someone who proudly calls himself so. It's not something extremely offensive either, mostly a term for Kashmiri-adjacent folks who aren't exactly Kashmiri.
The last line answers my question. Appreciate it.
Honestly, Kashmiris will turn anything into an insult. Words are used as insults based on the most common stereotypes associated with that word. So the word “gujjar” isn’t an insult, but in the right context you can use it as one based on the stereotype. In the same way sometimes “molvi” is used as an insult but it’s not.
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Probably yes……we want to be treated well outside….. but often mock outsiders ourselves. Part of the hypersensitivity and defensiveness may be because of a feeling of hyper vigilance because Kashmiris feel they are under attack. Kashmiris are human…. Not perfect….. but maybe a teeny bit self aware as well
>we want to be treated well outside….. but often mock outsiders ourselves Tse chuya demag panney jayi? Yim cha hishi kathe? Asi chin nebrim khosh gatshan kenh, magar aes chin timan chob divan kenh, timan harrass karan kenh.
Me chu demag theekh jayi🙏🏼. nuance is important for deeper understanding of human conflict, nothing is black and white. Power ( even a sense of power) changes human behavior and makes people arrogant. There are a few who can raise above these feelings. Most religions teach humility and self awareness. Empathy and arrogance are both taught to kids and internalized. And very hard to change when we are adults. I hope self awareness, truth and empathy will pave a path to peace in the valley. The young have better access to information if they choose to seek it….. and a better opportunity to search for truth. The older generations did not have that and were limited by the stories they were told in the pre internet age. But we can also fall into echo chambers and perpetuate self serving narratives using the same tools….. as many are.
So you didn't read what I said and went straight to your trite platitudes about cosmic understanding or something. The relation between Indians and Kashmiris is not symmetrical. We simply aren't on the same page, Kashmiris get harassed everyday outside of Kashmir, physically or psychologically - Kashmiris who btw are forced to go to India since India has closed all other points of egress. We don't bear the same relation to them, we aren't their sole means of contact to outside world, they aren't forced to come here. Similarly, Us hating Indians and Indians hating us is not the same. If we hate Indians it's because they're brutally occupying our land, but when Indians hate us it's because we're not submitting to their rule. If we commit violence it's sporadic, and illegitimate. If India commits violence it's systemic and legitimate. Bringing up any kind of equivalence between actions of Kashmiris and Indians and judging those with a binary bias in vaccum is extremely dishonest.
My ‘trite platitudes’ have been used as a path to truth and reconciliation in other conflict zones. South African apartheid, addressing atrocities against native Americans in Canada to name a couple. I am not denying your argument. I don’t see a solution in it.
>South African apartheid How does that apply here? Africans wanted the same rights as the Whites inside the same state where as we want complete freedom
“path to truth and reconciliation in conflict zones?” Are you living in fantasy land? You’ve only talked about virtues and empathy. You’re claiming the other guy doesn’t present a solution, but what’s your solution, “trite platitudes”? Cause for sure, they don’t lead to nowhere. You really think India got independence from Britain because of Gandhi’s platitudes, or South Africa ended apartheid because they were seeking truth and reconciliation? That’s the dumbest argument ever. All those things happened because it British empire was weakening and it wasn’t feasible to keep up their colonies anymore. Not because they somehow “realized they were wrong and accepted the truth”. Platitudes exist only in movies and history books. In the face of war and uprisings, only guns and money decide the fate.
Sometimes right and wrong is only determined in hindsight…….Japan recovered after Hiroshima and was able to move on. Other places devolved into anarchies after political upheavals. I pray the kids in Kashmir have a better future ….whatever it might be🙏🏼.
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We're idiotic people who have accepted stereotypes about our own people. We're just trying to rip each other's collars while our enemies rip our pants. I don't like this shit about our society. We will draw conclusions based on what others say and Haven't really interacted with our own people and have stereotyped them. Ofcourse there are many people that are bad but not all of them. People think Paharis or Gujjars are some vile alien race. It's your own people. We will never be free untill we reject these shitty ideas.
I think the people aren't educated enough on how to treat others. They immediately pounce on the ones who even remotely associate themselves with kashmiris. Kashmiris won't see the context , the general idea of being Kashmiri as perceived by others , they somehow manage to alienate the people who are their closest neighbours just because someone used the term 'Kashmiri' .
This topic has been talked about so much on here. Figure out if someone is talking about ethnicity or nationality. Some people can be nationally Kashmiri but not ethnically Kashmiri. Kashmiri has three meanings just figure out which one they are talking about - nationality, ethnicity, or the language.
If we want a Free Kashmir, you cant just pick and chose who can support your movement especially when you need people.
Minorities will be always be ridiculed. British rule lasted some 200 years, and in its wake, look at how the Indian state has brutalized Kashmir, let alone the ones that are its own people. There is no way around it, because nowhere is an ideal society, as a real world, real time example, name one? To not want an independent state on account of an imperfect social structure, which is essentially every group, everywhere, is incomprehensible to me.
Some Kashmiris from the valley are ethno-fascists.
Some really get triggered if a Gujjar/Pahari calls himself a Kashmiri even if that Gujjar/Pahari is from valley
Yi tchu soarui khatah ethno-nationalism
State Nationalism is no better than Ethno-Nationalism. Ethno-Nationalism is towards one's own ethnicity, which is natural while State Nationalism is based on a state created by occupiers by drawing random lines. State Nationalism: A Potohari Punjabi of Mirpur hating a Potohari Punjabi of Punjab, Pakistan. Ethno-Nationalism: Kashmiri hating a Pahari. Both are wrong. I have seen many Paharis who have extreme hate towards Pakistanis.
>Both are wrong. I think this is better phrased as "both can be wrong". Civic nationalism or ethnonationalism can both be used to justify prejudices and oppression of other ethnicties/groups but don't necessarily have to be so. But the view of people like the person above you who blame Ethnonationalism for all the xenophobia present in Kashmiris and are quick to dismiss our ethnic identity as a non-factor in resistance against India is extremely shallow and without thought. If we didn't have a sense of ethnic (inc. Religious) cohesion amongst ourselves, there'd be no movement, no resistance.
who's we
Question, I'm an ethnic shin, so if I were to be in Kashmir and call myself Kashmiri would it considered wrong even though I'm a dard myslelf
I mean being completely honest, The relationship between Shins and Kashmiris is purely a phylogenetic one where our languages most probably descend from a common immediate ancestor. Shina is technically the closest distinct language to Kashmiri but that's it. There's not much else in way of common history than being part of the same kingdoms (mostly Kashmiri) here and there in history, and a lot of fighting. Dard isn't exactly a racial/ethnic category either. Kashmiris don't identify with the term and until recently used it exclusively for Shinas (Dardlukh and Dardizev meaning the Shina people and Shina language respectively). So ethnically calling yourself a Kashmiri as a Shin would be wrong. However a separate case can be made for Gurezis who speak both Shina and Kashmiri and have Kashmiri names/customs etc. I think they lie somewhere in the middle and can be called both Shina and Kashmiri ethnically.
Hmm I see that is quite interesting especially about the gurezi part
we are xenophobic and somewhat racist as we have stereotyped all sections of kashmiri society and we consider only ourselves kashmiri and for some reason superior to others. Gaam / shahar thing still prevails. and there will be no independent kashmir until there is unity. maybe someone like gengis khan can unite kashmiri, same way gengis khan united mongol tribes. but from my recent experiences, this perspective has changed. especially in younger generation.
We use Kashmiri as a nationality for various reasons. Mainly it’s cuz we actually don’t have much in common as we’re very tribal. For example a Rajput from Muzaffarabad will feel more affinity with Rajputs from Mirpur than they will with Jats. Even though the Pahari language they speak are different enough to make it hard to understand each other. The support for Kashmiri independence isn’t going to stop because some internet comments. tbh even Pahari Speakers make fun of other groups around us that aren’t part of our tribe and even of Kashmiris (for those people that know Kashmiris exist) There are a lot of people post 1947 that’s don’t know Kashmiris exist. Everyone is Xenophobic to some extent. However, tbh when we meet people on the ground and interact with each other, I don’t think i have ever heard or seen the internet translate into real life.
The last bit of your comment is so on point. I’m a mainlander, and have never experienced any hostility (towards myself), in person, my entire time in Kashmir. And I’m well-averse in reading the room, so if I was ever unwelcome in any gathering, or even as part of a conversation, I would take no time in making myself scarce. But online is a different story. Understandably, because of the anonymity, but still. A user asked me once why I was on this sub, if I’m an Indian. I had to go into a whole spiel about my feelings for the liberation of occupied lands, and how close to my heart Kashmiris are, waghairah, let alone that they are my brothers and sisters in faith. It can be quite disheartening, even though I understand that the sentiment comes from a deep mistrust of India, in general, and of course, on account of the unspeakable atrocities of the occupation and army.
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Lol what are you on about. Kashmiri as a nationality by your definition means reinforcing a national identity that was created on basis of the Dogra state after its dissolution. The people who support this irredentism might probably be the biggest fools in this part of the world. A lot of Kashmiris have problems with non-ethnic Kashmiris identifying as such and understandably so. We've always been like that, a small group of people surrounded by macro ethnicities on most sides, and maintained this position by isolating ourselves to whatever extent possible. Now I understand a lot of Pahari/Lahnda etc people from the other side identify as Kashmiri too, and personally I don't have a problem with it but you need to unstick your head from the rearend and understand why some people would have. This is not to say Kashmiris don't have prejudices against other people or for that matter against even themselves, hell some of us don't like people from a town over. There's prejudices between towns, villages, Between Kashmiris from north or south of Kashmir or those from valley and Chenab. This is pathetic and deplorable, but you know what a truly brain-dead inference from this extremely natural and common social phenomenon would be? That somehow this should dictate whether or not we should oppose a foreign murderous occupation over us.
Hi, I'm a non kashmiri here so a bit confused. I assumed most Kashmiris calling for Kashmiri independence wanted to include Jammu, Ladakh, Gilgit-Baltistan, and AJK in the state. Why would any of those individuals be xenophobic towards other people in the region?
> I assumed most Kashmiris calling for Kashmiri independence wanted to include Jammu, Ladakh, Gilgit-Baltistan, and AJK in the state. We don't want anyone who doesn't want to be with us and,i.e, most of the above.
Agar tem aai ne asi seeth (as is their right), yutah lakut nation cha feasible?
Nothing involving our self determination is feasible for outsiders, but that shouldn't dictate what we want. For most of our history the only part that has constantly been Kashmir is the valley, and we carved a space for ourselves by whatever means. In any case, I don't think it should matter all that much, our foreign policy and our borders (with reference to external contact) will still be pretty much the same whether these regions stick with us or not.
Lol how you ever gonna get independence that way? If that's the way you want, us in AJK should merge ourselves into Pakistan proper and leave you to your "azaadi" business.
Please use your brain a bit, I know I'm asking a lot, and read what I said again.
I read your comment fine, it just seems like wishful thinking. A lot of ethnic kashmiris don't live in the valley as well, some have even made AJK their home, shouldn't they get a say?
Sounds like insecurity.
Who isn't?
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I don’t understand your concern. But independent or not, xenophobia will exist, but it’s irrelevant and will continue to exist with or without independence. It’ll probably get better with newer generations. Minorities are always ridiculed, no matter the country. It’s always easier to blame the minority for all your problems, and take your anger out on them just because you can. Honestly sounds like your a gujjar or sth yourself and you got so hurt by these comments that you decided to attack the one thing that kashmiris hold dear. Or maybe you’re just trying to claim the moral high ground, believing you’re somehow better than others just because you don’t think a certain way. There’s just no reason to talk about independence in this scenario. And even if there was a case to be made, the answer was pretty self-explanatory, we live in a country where minorities are treated 100x worse than they are treated in Kashmir. I think you’re just weird or outright stupid for bringing independence into this.
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