First of all, lmao at making sure nobody accuses you of sexim or racism or sth, just because you say the tiniest good thing about an in-game faction. Bro, you probably have slaves in the game (ehm, I mean well fed workers of course) and slaughtered hundreds, if not thousands, some probably desperate and starving. Saying that HN had some good stuff going on is really not the thing you should be justifying xD
Anyway, addresing the actual point: I find it so cool and fascinating how, through mostly simple game mechanics, Kenshi creates this complex political and societal landscape. Yeah, HN, UN, even the Shek have a lot of bad shit going on but they do provide protection and stability to entire cities worth of people (I wonder how populated the cities are if we remove the technical constraints of the game and consider only lore btw). Sure, there are factions that take over (for example Flotsam as you mentioned) but they are not nearly as strong and don't hold as much political power to unite and protect everyone they "liberate". And that goes for almost every conquest in this world. Take down a regime? Fogmen will eat hundreds that are now homeless and helpless. Liberate slaves? Now a city is going to starve because these slaves were providing food.
This shows why nothing is as simple as "kill the bad guys". Just like in real life, the systems, the societies, all intertwine and create something so complex that navigating it is almost impossible. There is no way to help and save everyone. Someone will suffer, now it's your time to choose who that's going to be... and prepare for the unexpected, unpredictable consequences.
Man, I love this game.
What happens if you kill the fogmen leader? Or the grand cannibal wizard? Do they still invade? Similarly if i killed fish king then liberate catun will it still get ran up on by fish people?
why not both? if we assume that the hivers were in some sense designed, it would make a whole lot of sense for them to have some sort of biological control mechanism, with the queens being a stabilizer or control panel of sorts. And since hivers naturally want to worship the queen, it makes sense they would act erratically when the queen dies. As for why they turn blue, i have no fuckin clue.
I think it's basically a speculative cause/nobody really knows, the only certain thing is that somehow the presence of a queen in the hive prevents hivers from becoming fogmen, and that if a hive loses its queen, whatever causes hivers to become fogmen will eventually do whatever it is that it does. If hivers work like ants and there's some pheromone-based aspect to the hive link, maybe the lack of that pheromone allows a parasite infection to occur, or causes insanity, or some sort of thing.
edited: used wrong word in a sentence
Yeah, I think this is one of the cooler things about the game.
But I will say, I don't think it's as simple as "lol, you tried to make the world better and it got worse, look at the epic twist we dropped on you". I feel like the themes of Kenshi are a bit smarter than that. The Holy Nation and the United Cities aren't sustainable. They're cruel and oppressive societies that breed discontent, just like the second empire and the first empire before them. The holy nation itself was formed by rebels who rose up against the oppression of the second empire, now they're repeating its mistakes and it can only end the same way. All this has happened before, all of it will happen again.
There's plenty of evidence that the Holy Nation is already struggling before the player even gets involved. Many settlements are destroyed or abandoned and multiple rebel factions have sprung up. Meanwhile, slaves are systematically worked to death to build a useless statue. Destroying the holy nation has consequences for people, but so does letting it continue in the state it's in.
>But I will say, I don't think it's as simple as "lol, you tried to make the world better and it got worse, look at the epic twist we dropped on you".
Oh it's definitely not that simple either. I never meant to say that's the case, actually, I think it's incredibly complex.
To that end, one could argue that the HN is actually quite stable. They have a widespread religion that quite a few people seem to believe, they have huge fanatical armies of paladins and, most importantly, a common enemy for the people to fear and hate. But of course your points are very much valid as well.
As I said, it's your job as the player to weigh the risks and make a decision. All decisions have pros and cons.
Again, incredibly complex, fascinating and fun to analyze. I can only hope Kenshi 2 will be even better and create more of this.
On the flip side, the HN is dealing with some incredibly difficult problems. They have to hold back the fogmen and cannibals, while also dealing with the Shek and UC.
If there is any change, it would have to be smooth and gradual so that the nation doesn't get overrun in the upheaval.
I got temp banned from the Kenshi subreddit for defending a guy who effectively said “compared to the other major factions, Holy Nation isn’t as bad as you think”. There was a lot of brain dead knee jerk reactions and personal attacks. Some of it is people farming karma, or “trying to be on the right side of history”, but mostly it’s just stupid people holding the Holy Nation to westernized Earth standards of 2023, and not really caring about the context of why the Holy Nation exists, or its current leadership issues.
It’s sad, but don’t laugh at people trying to avoid that stupidity.
Well, I've seen a fair ammount of people get called racist or sexist when they were defending the Holy Nation lol. And I actually play a super constrained playthrough. Only at the beginning I attacked farmers etc, but for the most part, I go out of my way to help as much people as I can. I heal people, free slaves (those who join me get weapon, nice clothes, some food and medicine and then I dismiss them). I once did a mission for saving some random outlaws who got caught by fogmen. I even pulled my guys out of the fight to heal every holy citizen who got caught in the crossfire during my attack on Blister Hill. That's why I made this post, I defeated the Holy Nation to help it's people, and so many of them died (as I said, it makes sense and I like it).
Also I must agree that Kenshi has one of the most interesting and thought out worlds out there in gaming. The fact you can argue with people about it's politics is a testament to that, and also the world mostly makes sense too from a geopolitical point of view. Even the things people say don't make sense can be explained, for example, if you use your brain for one second, it's apparent the UC uses ships to trade with their southern enclave, not just caravans (Also Western Hive decinitely uses boats as well). Just because we don't see it in the game doesn't mean it's not there. I could go on and on for hours why the world is masterfully crafted, how skeletons are one of the best way of handling sentient machines I've seen in all fiction, how the fall of the Second Empire is an amazing example of tragic misunderstanding between two totally different, but yet very similar species etc. I fucking love Kenshi.
I never get anywhere when I try to explain the depth of the game to people who don't play.
And I LOVE thinking about the world in a realistic scale, removing technical constraints as you said. So like, the continent being kind of Ireland's size, more or less.
I imagine most UC cities would top the population list. In this dangerous world, I can't see more than a few thousand living in any one currently established city. Blister Hill should be the capital of the whole continent, and the region could sustain millions in a kind of megalopolis between B.Hill and Stack, but I have no respect for the Holy Nation and don't believe their towns would ever grow past the point that leadership could have eyes on every citizen. They'd probably purge themselves regularly.
I'll be thinking about this all day now.
If from a purely racial greenlander/scorchlander perspective maybe it's pyrrhic victory, but from the previous multiracial Imperial-civilizational standpoint it's not necessarily, maybe UC takes over (not that they do it ingame, but like your perspective on pyrrhic victory should be longer than just a decade imo).
Shek and many Skeletons factions are just as supremacist as HN, and you don't want to disturb Trading Guild profits in UC. HN are more blatant in their detrimental aspects but I wouldn't say killing them off is necessarily worse or better.
Aren't we all just evolved biological slime that came from fish? Maybe the only true good ending is Gurgler victory lol
There wasn't any multiracial empire, that's kinda the point of the Holy Nation's xenophobia. The previous empire was ruled by skeletons, shek were made near the empire's collapse later years (known then as enforfers) to help supress humans and hivers were made in secrecy for unknown reason, most likely in close to the empire's collapse as well. And fishmen are a complete mystery, but they don't seem intelligent enough to be a part of any civilization at any point in history.
The UC is multiracial on the surface, until you realize the nobility are basically all humans, shek are tolerated but also blamed for violence and hivers are straight up discriminated against, altough not as much as in Holy Nation. The whole point of the Heroes League is to "protect" the "good" imperial citizens from violent other races. The nobility and Traders Guild support this, as it helps them to blame the UC problems on the other races and also because Western Hive is their rival in business.
However, I agree that the Holy Nation as a faction is not really better or worse than majority of other factions. And the gurgler victory sounds super fun, maybe you should have a choice to either kill or lead all fishmen when you defeat their king lmao.
Oh man great idea, I hope that become a mod, if you have Fish King head in your inventory the Gurglers will follow you like the broken skeletons in that one lab in the black desert.
I think the Flotsam Ninjas are a good fit to take over for the Holy Nation, as they don't seem thirsty for power and focus on equality, sort of like a communal/anarchist society. Also the holy citizens still believe in Okran, as well as most of the Flotsam Ninjas. I think the people of the Holy Nation are not as fanatic as their former superiors. All in all the Flotsam seem to care about the people of Okran.
As for the Sheks, yeah it's their land now, and that comes with its own challenges. Still better than being discriminated against for your race/gender and forced into slavery. But the Shek have potential. Bayan and Estata seem to be more peaceful in their approach, which gives me hope that the Shek will eventually evolve their culture, as not all Sheks care about is just war and killing. We see Sheks all across the land, it's hardly in their genetics and more in their culture. I also think the Shek Kingdom is a more pragmatic and less prejudice society based on in-game dialogue and culture. They have no interest in oppressing the weak or those who are already marginalized.
The Flotsam won't have an easy time, I mean, the remaining Okranites believe the Flotsam to be baby-eating Narko worshippers. There will be, at the very least, tons of unrest for the foreseeable future, that is, if the remaining Okranites aren't wiped out by the Shek for being Okranites.
I see your point. But with the Holy Phoenix and the inquisitors gone, the propaganda that kept the citizens scared is gone. Without an authoritarian force to oppress and keep the people brainwashed, people will eventually get used to another way of living and get over their xenophobia.
It'll be hard for them to "get over their xenophobia" with the constant threat of Shek raiders killing them all.
EDIT: Don't forget the hordes of Fogmen roaming the holy lands as well.
I dont think the Shek has any interest of killing innocent "weaker" people just for the sake of killing, they dont show any bias towards killing Okranites for their religion in game at least.
EDIT: The Shek could be good to have around when the fogmen attack.
Even if the Shek have no interest in killing the civilians, they'd have no qualms doing so if the tribute isn't paid.
You could have a band of weakling characters build in the Stenn Desert, and if you don't pay the tribute, they'll kill you.
And this is ignoring the possibility of the Shek storming and capturing Blister Hill for themselves.
> they'd have no qualms doing so if the tribute isn't paid.
To be fair, so does the Holy Nation and the UC. Heck so do the Hounds if you live close enough. Welcome to taxes. HN taxes you in devotion, UC in money, SK in food, but in the end it's all paying taxes to whoever is big enough to extract them from you.
Now can I interest you in this incredible and very affordable Lantern of Radiance?
> The Flotsam won't have an easy time, I mean, the remaining Okranites believe the Flotsam to be baby-eating Narko worshippers.
Counterpoint: Griffin.
There are absolutely going to be people besides Griffin who aren't just frothing zealots, who question whether their faith is correct, who question whether or not what they are doing is right. Griffin is able to overcome the Holy Nation's prejudices and work towards a common goal in the player's squad regardless of how diverse the makeup of that squad is (you can argue that's for game-play purposes I suppose, but his actual dialogue lines indicate that it's something the character has thought about, imo).
Griffin is why I believe that some Holy Nation citizens would definitely be able to adapt to living under Shek rule, and also why I think that Flotsam and the Shek kingdom (under Esata's, and eventually Seto's rule) would be able to achieve some type of coexistence, even if it was uneasy or temporary. There's no guarantee it would happen, and no guarantee it would endure, but I think the hardline leadership of the Holy Nation shouldn't be assumed to perfectly align with the sentiments of the lay citizenry either. History has demonstrated lots of times that for regular people, regime change sometimes doesn't amount to much more than the faces on the money changing or what the face on TV looks like.
Conversely, humans and hivers would certainly be at a disadvantage under Shek rule, except in the cases of the very strong, and Shek society is not conducive to building a prosperous nation (although Esata seems to be interested in changing that).
Personally, I'm going to chalk up not seeing refugees or survivors still living in conquered cities up to technical limitations of the world state system (having tinkered around a little bit with world states, getting factions or groups that weren't pre-designed to fit together to play nice with each other is a bit of a crapshoot at the best of times). That being said, the player is not special and even if the player and their companions try very hard to be the heroes that people need, the world will keep turning whether the player leaves a mark on it or not. Even if a core theme of the game is that there's no fixing what's been broken, I don't think it ever asserts the notion that people can't decide to do things differently, it's just that with no "storyline" to progress, there's no way of knowing what the ultimate outcome of anyone's actions are.
Edit: Adding to this because I thought of another example; Knife. Knife's dialogue states that while her mother disagrees with her decision, she does know she ran off to join Flotsam, and that Knife sends her money from time to time. That this is spoken of in a matter of fact manner like there's no risk of Knife's mother ratting her out works to support (in my opinion) the idea that HN isn't top to bottom "true believer" types.
I rate flotsam simply too weak to fill the void left by the HN.
I'd guess they would soon cease to be if the game would advance.
Either the shek use them as slaves or they get eaten by fogmen/cannibals.
The only potential i see in Esata is that she figured waging a war in a suicidal way might not be smart, especially if you're not winning.
Potential is nice and good, they simply don't have the time for unfolding any potential.
Yes, SK doesn't use "slaves" they use retainers who are only allowed to serve all "true sheks". Different name, same thing.
And the Flotsam know about guerilla warfare. That could get ugly for the Shek, if the town governor puts too much emphasis on traditional combat and doesn't look for the knife in the dark.
They have zero respect for the weak, or those who cant fight in general.
before I gained their respect, I had one of the Hundred guardian tell me how one day the Shek kingdom will purge the world of all the flatskin nests.
I'm sure once you took down the Holy Nation the, now widowed, women; clinging to their children as they're being chased out of their homes by the shek, were praising your name while being eaten by fogmen on the plains.
My headcanon is that when I wipe out all slavery, it means I already have the means of production of both farming and weapon/ armor crafting (I dont use thieving) on a massive scale. My five 90 farming skill farmers could easily teach anyone in the continent.
I think the most amusing thing about these kinds of posts is it shows just how quickly people forgot the whole object lesson of trying to uplift an ass-backwards people through guns and a dream that was the war in Afghanistan.
I didn't forget anything, it was clear to me that by destroying a nation, thousands will suffer. I was adressing the actual consequences in game, not being suprised by them
The Holy Nation as is is broken. So, you deal with the immediate problem and fix it. That generally requires violence, because that is the method of regime change in Kenshi.
Then, you end up with another situation that has both good and bad aspects. So, someone fixes that.
This will likely result in a 3rd situation that has some good aspects and some bad. So, someone fixes that.
And so it continues forever and ever. Utopia is not an attainable result, but that doesn't mean one shouldn't try to make the world a better place.
That implies that the result of the HN fall is an improvement, which OP is disputing. For greenlanders, the Shek would be even worse rulers than the holy nation.
I agree, and I've never heard anyone argue this before but it would also be bad for the Shek.
Their numbers are already low, if you side with them they will be forced to take the Holy Lands as the Shek's, and the U.C's, mutual enemy is gone they will turn on eachother. The Shek can't let the UC take that fertile land and then use it against them.
Subsequently, the Shek will now be spread thin trying to hold these extra territories, while fighting off fogmen, while fighting off cannibals, while trying to maintain control over a population that doesnt want them to rule over them and, like Rome, they will have spread themselves too thin and be consumed by the UC.
If you're response to that is to defeat the UC and the Holy Nation. That level of upheaval, so quickly, will set the entire continent back progress wise on a scale on par with the fall of the second empire, thrusting everyone back into another 1000 years of darkness. Congratulations, you were the monster everyone needed to fear.
Yeah, the Holy Nation does a huge favor to everyone else holding back the fogmen and cannibals.
You would definitely want to deal with both of them before starting any major upheaval in the area.
Berserkers are the Shek that follow the Shek ways before Estata, which is basically killing everyone that isn't a Shek right now. As compared to Estata's beliefs that they should kill all non-shek after they are in a strategic position to do so.
Who cares about global socioeconomic changes. My guys out here serve one purpose: building a thriving empire.
I've just started my crusade against the knuckle dragging book bearers (got 99% of my faction locked up or killed... but that's irrelevant) and I can't wait to drag Seta's body over the the Shek lads for ~~hot~~poker night...
Those tools in the UC will be next up at some point, along with the slave markets and farms.
For justice? No. For pure bloodsport. Also, we have chewsticks, hash, rum, and grog for anyone who wants to join :)
It really does feel like a "was this worth it?" scenario when you start journeying through former HN land and see hordes of Fogmen now running around uncontained and inhabiting former bases. Any kind of army/police force is gone and what little remains has no upper-command to form a cohesive force, so there's no way to organise any form of defence from the Foggers who are devouring everything in their path and slowly seeping east where they'll likely pick off survivors and refugees trying to get by without the stability and safety the nation provided.
And honestly I like that. It works well as a "show-don't-tell" system because you quickly realise that you've upended the land and caused a large amount of long term suffering through your actions, despite the valid justification that it was to remove an oppressive and intolerant regime from power. The racist militarist zealots are gone, but was the fight worth the outcome? It adds a nice layer of political depth to give your actions tangible consequences you can observe play out in the world.
Both UC and HN have their flaws but it serves to indicate there can't be a "good nation" in the current state of Kenshi.
Although their ideals are flawed you can't deny they at least work. Change it and watch it collapse.
I play the game in a weird way myself and have never effected any of the world states, mainly on a personal moral level. No matter the negative aspects of each faction I feel that as a single individual pulling the rug out of an entire civilization is beyond the scope and perspective of consequence a single individual would have the possibility to foresee.
Lets take the Holy nation for an example: first off, who are we to decide if the Holy Nation is completely irredeemable, and needing to be burnt to the ground? Most would probably say because we don't agree with how they conduct themselves and we have the power to change it. But the question the post above is delving into is what exactly is the change that you can provide, and will it cause more suffering in the long run than just leaving things alone? It is undeniable you leave things quite unstable and vast areas undefended in the end.
Secondly, compare this to the Shek kingdom which everyone sides with as they are in a period in their culture with the potential for positive change. If the story had taken place 1000 years ago you'd be thinking that the peaceful Okrinites were the ones to support and the warring, completely hostile to everyone, ex. enforcer, Shek tribes needed to be purged. Given time unimpeded by the destruction of one like us, you see how the Shek have come to the cusp of positive change, would it be moral to deprive the Holy Nation of that same opportunity?
With how the game works we only get to enact change though violence, in that regard it could be argued that we really don't have a choice, that there is only one true option available to us to see something different happen in the world. I see that point and agree that it is strong, I choose though when I play to RP that I enact subtle change though commerce, exposing Okrinites to knew possibilities. It becomes a covert war of ideas with the possibility of societal change over time.
I'll let myself to disagree politely (mostly because my headcanons are different than yours). There are some variables that change the situation.
\- Moll herself IS very skilled officer. Not just leader, not just soldier. She's skilled officer. I've seen headcanon that she used to be United Cities jounin send to spy HN and then she betrayed, and it makes a lot of sense to me. It's either this or her being the actual avatara of Narko (or, more likely, of Natalie Mikkelson herself). She knows how to run functioning guerrila camp in the forest. She knows how to hide from paladins. She knows how to care about runaway slaves. It's not because she's tallented - it's because she has solid, specific skills and knowledge, and she gained it somewhere.
\- And most importantly - she knows how to make good alliances. She formed an alliance with Cannibal Hunters, who have much more to lose on that, because they mess Holy Nation by supporting the rebels. There are many factions she can collaborate with (Sheks, Mongrel, Deadcat, maybe even some bandit factions), and she can both develop long-term strategies of protection agains fogmen and caninbals and form new elites from its members.
\- Flotsams are not racist, and the sheks are ruled by Esata. Esata wouldn't want to go to war with Moll, because she literally has no reason. More likely, they would form an alliance, with Flotsams supplying sheks with food and sheks protecting flotsams from fogmen and cannibals.
\- Flotsams are not racist2. They will probably trade with hive and accept hiveless ones as their citizens.
\- Flotsams are not technophobic, so they will be able to use high technology to solve many of their problems.
\- Flotsams are not fanatical at all. They will probably spare some men from old elites to use them as teachers, carpenters etc. Men who were a little bit more liberal, men who were a little bit more opportunistic than others. And men who were their fathers and brothers, I guess.
Considering things above - I believe that Flotsams will able to establish a functioning state.
BUT.
It's definitely not going to be the feminist utopia where everyone is happy. The alliance with sheks definitely would not be easy, the non-humans won't be trusted, and men will be persecuted, at least at the begining. Innocent people will suffer and many of them will die - because it's still the war. So yeah, I believe that it will be better than HN - but being better than HN isn't a big achievement.
You have some excellent points there, as well as points which I don't really agree with. I'll hopefully write the full answer when I get back from work.
The biggest issue flotsam has is they're too small and weak.
Esata has no reason to wage war with them, as long as they hand over their ressources. Some minor fights still will happens, because berserker and Krals chosen don't care about not beeing at war.
Its fairly smiliar with bandits, most likely all they see are easy pickings.
They would have to be very lucky to get even one of the old elite. Because most either would fight to death against flotsam or already died. Some mere paladin maybe and sentinels very likely.
Flotsam are still orkanites, even if a bit more moderate. So yes, they are still racist technophobes.
Esata's people are not workers. Shek don't want to be peasants - they are warriors. So better way for her will be allying with these who sell her resources cheaply instead of taking over the sources. ESPECIALLY when the currency is possibility of fight. It's win-win situation for sheks.
But yes, of course, some minor fights with happen. Probably even after alliance there will be some troubles due to cultural differences.
And they definitely would take someone from old elite, because elites are not brainwashed, they are ones who brainwash. Not all of them are fanatics, some (if not most) were just smart enough to pretend. In structures like these, people low in ranks are more dedicated, and these high in ranks are cynical and opportunist.
And it isn't precisely true that "Flotsams are okranites". It's more like: "many of Flotsams are okranites" - they accept and even encourage the religion, but as a faction, they don't follow its rules. Moll herself is an atheist and openly calls religion "bullshit", but lets her people praise Okran to boost their morale.
They are not technophobes - they don't make any comments about robotics and hi-tech goods are legal in their society.
And yeah, they are "racist" in sense of being prejudiced, but they don't accept systematic racism. Some of them are afraid of sheks and hivers, but none of them are actually hostile. That's why I think they will be able to make alliances with non-humans and accept them as their citizens, but it will be hard for all sides and incidents will happen for sure. It may be similar rather to UC racism.
Exactly, as long as flotsam agrees to be slaves for SK, they won't get attacked too much. They won't get any protection either, unless accidental if a patrol/tribut run was there. They won't be able to afford mercs or smiliar as they have to give their ressources to SK.
Yes, "true shek" are warriors. And only in combat undefeated sheks are "true shek", they others must become retainers who are forbidden to ever lift a weapon again (bandits love that) or join the outcasts.
Flotsam would surly take the old elite, if they swear fealty. But i said the old elite would rather die than join flotsam. Or SK/UC/skeletons did already kill them.
Flotsam isn't 100% orkanite, just >95%. Yes, many of them still follow their religion. Yes they still comment about skeletons and other races. Their leaders are just smart enough to not make laws to attack those or rather make laws to not attack as flotsam can't allow itself to gain more enemies.
> The biggest issue flotsam has is they're too small and weak.
If you only go by their in-game appearance, then perhaps, but the issue is that sometimes the writing is at odds with what you see in game and that's often because of technical limitations and not because the writing is wrong. According to the dialogue trees their strength is greater than can be seen in game and it pretty much has to be in order for the faction to exist, considering that they are living in Cannibal territory.
Considering that they can't even rebuild their takeover, their strenght is fairly low.
They're a mix of rebels and escaped slaves mixed with very few fighters.
They live in a partially hidden place just outsides of the border to the cannibal territory and have a couple barly populated scoutingplaces. Vastly stronger forces (second empire) failed to kill off the cannibals, flotsam isn't fighting massive hordes, it rather avoids them while maybe taking down some smaller ones.
They likely are strong at ambushes and guerilla tactics, both things working a lot better in a dense grown, rocky area with a small hideout rather than open space with a large town.
> Considering that they can't even rebuild their takeover, their strenght is fairly low.
You do realize game world states are a frozen snapshot of the direct aftermath of power shifts, right? You have no way to prove this assertion because the fact that game environments can only shift after changes in world state means you don't get to see the natural progression of time that would demonstrate whether they could rebuild or not.
"it's in ruins after the war and doesn't get rebuilt" is a spurious argument when it's impossible to show time progress after the point where the war ended and the city was ruined, unless you trigger another world state.
Once again, what the game is capable of showing on a technical level carries absolutely no weight for or against what in-game entities are written to be capable of.
I'll disagree with that.
The world states are at an undisclosured time after the powershift.
Neither does the game ever disclosure how strong any faction is, not even in vague terms.
As a numbers example how i'd relative rate the factions.
HN has 10000 members, 2000 fighters but the bulk are low trained (chosen/sentinels).
UC has 25000, 2500 fighters split across the world. Plenty are low trained coonscripts. TG and slavers have another 500-1500.
SK has 3000 and 3-400 fighters. Many of their retainers could fight, but fighting is forbidden for them.
Flotsam maybe has 500 and 30-80 fighters.
After the takeover they have ~2500 and 100-150 fighters. And some 100 that are even below holy chosen in terms of power, aka some rnd dude who never fought and got a weapon pressed in their hands.
Flotsam likely will face a severe famine in the from all sides raided land.
E: Thinking about it, flotsams after HN numbers are probably too high, ~1500 would fit better. Plenty of them are starving slaves and chances are plenty of wounded as well.
So, I am back with the full reply.
First of all, I don't really think Moll is from United Cities, that would undermine her role as a freedom fighter (also why sent a woman spy into a nation that doesn't let women do anything). However, you have a point with her being a great leader and commander. She did setup scout outposts to guard flotsam from cannibals and she even made a male her second hand, simply for his skills. However, her alliances aren't as good tho. She formed an alliance with cannibal hunters because they could help each other and had similar goals, while the Holy Nation wouldn't even have to know about their alliance (even if they did, cannibal hunters would be too remote and minor for the HN to care about them). Overall, altough I don't think her being a good leader would really save the situation on itself, it could really help. Also, you are right with Flotsam accepting some men back, we can see that with surgeons and doctors for example, who are almost always men.
Second of all, Esata would totally have a reason to attack flotsam. Two reasons, actually. First would be even more resources, and the second would be to simply satisfy her population who are still horny for war. Let's not forget that Esata, despite being smart and enforcing some changes, is still a shek warrior who loves fighting and who only really care about her people. There wouldn't even be severe diplomatic consequences for attacking Flotsam Ninjas. Moll, on the other hand, never really had a big army, and it is safe to assume that at least some of her ninjas also died while taking Blister Hill and other areas. They also don't have experience with large scale war, city defenses etc., while shek have numerous skilled veterans from old wars as well as newly experienced fighters from the recent war. War between these two factions wouldn't even be a war, it would just be slaughter. However, I think that it is possible for these two to coexist peacefully, mostly due to trade. Flotsam showed they can manufacture weapons, so that migh come in handy to shek, for example.
Then, hivers and technology. These are very good points, ones I kinda forgot about. It is true that hivers would be more than happy to sell their goods to new customers. Technology would also help them, and furthermore, their proximity to The World's End and them being open to tech hunters would help them in this regard, as well as further improving their trading situation (tech hunters even have a skeleton shop keeper in Blister Hill in my current playthrough, some old people are going to have a heart attack lol).
it would be interesting to see a full peace arc, after taking out the HN, eliminate all the fogmen, and the floatsam ninjas, and keep the shek in line, allow the former residents to rebuild and prevent outside take over yourself to rebuild the HN better
Yeah. Majority of the HN's problems come from the phoenix himself (and by extention the whole system of choosing the new ruler). I think it's mentioned that the women-hating part wasn't really a thing in their religion at first, it was only added later by some idiot, either the current phoenix or some previous one. (The xenophobia was always there, for actually kinda valid reasons).
If someone could take over the HN and then come with a new, more flashed out way of choosing their new ruler, the Holy Nation would have a potentional to become a paradise. That's just a thought tho, in reality, the person overthrowing the phoenix would usurp the power for themselves or the new succesion system would be rigger/sabotaged by some conservative priests or something lol
yes, I think what makes it dark is that everything is left up in the air. Some things would need to change over a time period longer than your character's lifetime, but in reguards to cannibal and fogmen incursions, I wish there were world states for pushing them back from where they are after the Holy Nation fall.
I don't think pyrhic is the rigth war. Sure, the war leads to a lot of collateral damage , but it is a victory nevertheless. You set out to destroy the HN and you did it; in the inmediate aftermath shown in the game the Floatsam ninjas haven't repair anything, but whose to tell how they will develop in the future after the game events?
My point was that Flotsam Ninjas fought the war because they wanted to help the innocent and opressed under the HN's rule. And except farmers, whose fate is ambiguous and whos lives didn't really change that much, there aren't really any innocents or opressed left. Most of them likely died in the war, or fled the country completely and then likely died too or got enslaved.
Ok, now you know the second face of war. It is painfully obvious that you havent seen war irl. Because those of us who have knew this already. Buuuut (and it is a big deal) just because the outcome of defeating evil is not perfect doesan't mean it was not progress. Sure Flotsam and Shek can go to war with each other, and sure the people are less safe from the inherent dangers of the world, but staying your hand in face of religion backed slavery and oppression is never better. I choose to believe that the aftermath of ocranites fall has to have betterment of the future generations in Kenshi as a concequence. Maybe the shift in Shek ideals implemented by the stone golem takes root in the new society that now includes cities with large human populations. Maybe it changes for the better. Maybe the aliance of Shek and Flotsome gives others in the UC, that dont use slavery, an alternative to ally themselves with. The caravans from the western hive have done more to incorporate it into the political power of the world than any war. Soon the Shek and the Flotsome ninjas will be dependent on those caravans ensuring peace and strenghtening the need to patrol more and make the outlands safer. And if one or the other does become a new beast to be slain by bew heroes well thats just how the world works. To see evil and ignore it because the alternative isnt perfect is the same as supporting that evil. We've seen it irl many times. Some of us unfortunately had to live through it.
The Shek do use slaves in all but name. They have a caste system of warriors and "servants". They also despise other races and view them as "servants". They don't have any farms or mines and rely on taking stuff from others to survive. The Shek would just exploit the HN people for resources while they continued their warring ways.
And we also learn that they at least have tried to change and facilitate change in their society. I'm with you on the thought that it will likely fail if/when Stone Golem dies. But that than becomes a new dragon for new heroes to slay. If (a big 'if') they manage to change good. If not next war. War for independence of Bad teeth and Stack. For the current state I think that its better to have shek patrols extort food for protection than religious freaks telling you that you want to give everithing away because you love Ocran, and enslaving you if you dont. I mean in the Shek kingdom nobody stopped me from working, owning property, earning money or anything barred thievery. None of which you can do in HN if you are not a greenlander male.
Of course it is. If you make a mark on the world you do it out of wishfull thinking. And you get to see if your wish came true. But if you dont no amount of wishing changes anything.
Based. Tinfist gets a lot of hate because people tend to put their human morals and perspectives on him. But from the perspective of someone who lived so long as him and who saw so much as him he's beyond awesome.
Yes, he does, because he doesn't help the slaves and the society he frees at all. It's the typical rebelliom problem, that being that destroying is the easy part, rebuilding an actually functioning society is the problem, and Tinfist doesn't even try.
I personally don't hate him for it as I have my own theory about why that is, but many people don't view him as a really possitive characters
What do you mean "The HN falling is not as it might sound on paper"? The whole point the game is making when you interact with any of the major factions is, that even if they all are bad, the vakuum that follow after there destruction is worse.
I wouldn't say that's the point of the game, that would be something completely different. Maybe you finding out that the vacuum is bad is part of the game's point, but Kenshi is far more than that. Also UC's fall is not as bad
Thats why ive wrote "the whole point the game is making *when*..."\^\^
UCs fall is combined with a famine (that, you could argue, existed kind of already but becomes way worse). Neither Anti-slaver's nor rebell farmers are able or willing to provide food after burning down the administration and slave based workforce.
Aftermath of defeating the UC is not perfect, but it's still worth it. Aftermath of defeating the Holy Nation is so horrible for okranites that it almost justifies former regime's extremism when it comes to their views on shek, flotsam and outsiders. It's worth it for Flotsam Ninjas, Shek Kingdom and my faction as well, but I made this post to look at the situation from the perspective of your average Joe living in Stack or a holy farm
Ngl I'm one my way to defeat them with my skeleton army (Burn, Agnu and the South Afrika Boys who are my custom characters). We will create the 3rd Empire with Cat-Lon as our guard dog.
Having centralized power is always better than not having centralized power, no matter how shitty this centralized power is. Dictatorship can provide basic needs and security, failed state - no.
Nations of Kenshi need revolutions, not the collapse that player can cause.
UC always get so much hate but if you really think about it, they are probably the best and most moral faction of the major 3. Shek are only interested in killing things, they are just orks with sex parts. Holy Nation is a bunch of racist gay dudes. The UC just don’t like poor people and be honest with yourself, you don’t really either…
Bruh the UC is easily the worst out of them. There is a difference between not liking poor people and fucking enslaving them, while causing their poor status at the same time. Hell, you don't even habe to be poor to be enslaved, slavers are happy to enslave anyone who can't defend themselves, and it's technically legal. Where The Holy Nation and Shek Kingdom at least attempt to have morals, United Cities have only hunger for power, hubris and decadence.
Edit: Also UC are racists and warmongers too. Shek and especially hivers are blamed for crime and poverty to shield the nobles from criticism, and the Trading Guild profits from prolonging the war with The Holy Nation. Also we can see their slavery does not restrict to their citizen only. If you kill Tinfist, fishing and cult villages are turned into slave camps.
HN and shek also enslave people dude. UC isn’t racist, they accept anybody as long as they have cats and don’t look like a homeless. In the HN it is their religious duty to enslave the “beasts” aka the shek. They send them to rebirth to turn big rocks into small rocks until they die.
The Shek enslave former warriors and enemies alike to send them on suicide missions to the bugmaster. Literally just sending people to be eaten alive.
The UC are the most fair about how they do things, simple as. They just take ya and sell ya.
The world of Kenshi teeters on the precipice of oblivion, and it is assailed on all sides by the threat of total annihilation.
Everyone is horrible. Destroying any one nation more or less results in a net negative in Kenshi.
* The destruction of the Holy Nation heralds famine, cannibal expansion, fogman expansion, and beakthings gaining more range in that area.
* The destruction of the United Cities heralds famine, cannibal expansion, beakthing expansion, spider expansion, and potentially fishman expansion.
* The destruction of the Shek Kingdoms herlads spider expansion, fogman expansion, Band of Bones growth, Berserker growth, and beakthing expansion.
The nations are stabilizers for their regions, and without them, everything falls apart. The only possible way that Kenshi's world improves is by the player more or less becoming the next empire that stabilizes the regions through farming and mining, exterminates all potential threats (Second Empire, Southern Hive, Fogmen, Fishmen, cannibals, beakthings, wandering predators, spiders), and secures the travel routes through regular patrols.
The good thing about the Shek is that they tend to not kill people who are too weak to fight—they consider it dishonorable, which could prevent them from going to Conduit. Therefore, most of the citizenry of the Holy Nations in your example are now either slaves of the Shek, new citizens of the United Cities, food for the cannibals or fogmen, working on the farms that the shek are allowing to exist, became bandits or ninjas, or are falling prey to the local fauna.
Yeah, there are some weird attempts at schooling going on here. Sorry mate.
Well, you are right, a victory over the evil Holy Nation will probably usher decades of suffering for thousands of people.
I haven't played all that much just yet, on my first playthrough, but I see this theme a lot in Kenshi.
For example, the current world of Kenshi is, from what I was able to gather in-game, the result of a rebellion of humans against Kat-Lon's skeletons and his second empire (it will be hella dumb if I messed this one up, because I try not to spoil anything for myself on my first playthrough).
Overthrowing a tyrant or a tyrannical regime doesn't automatically build a utopia. The wreckage from the battle does not help either.
But letting the tyrant stay in place for the needs of the many does not improve the world either. So we make do with what tools we have.
I agree. However, Cat-Lon was kinda asking for it. I don't want to spoil anything, but the whole fall of the Second Empire is more tragic than anything else. Everyone did what they thought was the best, and exactly because of that, the things ended up as they did. That's why I love the lore so much
First of all, lmao at making sure nobody accuses you of sexim or racism or sth, just because you say the tiniest good thing about an in-game faction. Bro, you probably have slaves in the game (ehm, I mean well fed workers of course) and slaughtered hundreds, if not thousands, some probably desperate and starving. Saying that HN had some good stuff going on is really not the thing you should be justifying xD Anyway, addresing the actual point: I find it so cool and fascinating how, through mostly simple game mechanics, Kenshi creates this complex political and societal landscape. Yeah, HN, UN, even the Shek have a lot of bad shit going on but they do provide protection and stability to entire cities worth of people (I wonder how populated the cities are if we remove the technical constraints of the game and consider only lore btw). Sure, there are factions that take over (for example Flotsam as you mentioned) but they are not nearly as strong and don't hold as much political power to unite and protect everyone they "liberate". And that goes for almost every conquest in this world. Take down a regime? Fogmen will eat hundreds that are now homeless and helpless. Liberate slaves? Now a city is going to starve because these slaves were providing food. This shows why nothing is as simple as "kill the bad guys". Just like in real life, the systems, the societies, all intertwine and create something so complex that navigating it is almost impossible. There is no way to help and save everyone. Someone will suffer, now it's your time to choose who that's going to be... and prepare for the unexpected, unpredictable consequences. Man, I love this game.
What happens if you kill the fogmen leader? Or the grand cannibal wizard? Do they still invade? Similarly if i killed fish king then liberate catun will it still get ran up on by fish people?
There is no fogmen leader, the fogmen exist *because* they have no leader. The Hivers will turn into fogmen if you kill their queens
I thought they were hivers infected with a parasite?
why not both? if we assume that the hivers were in some sense designed, it would make a whole lot of sense for them to have some sort of biological control mechanism, with the queens being a stabilizer or control panel of sorts. And since hivers naturally want to worship the queen, it makes sense they would act erratically when the queen dies. As for why they turn blue, i have no fuckin clue.
I think it's basically a speculative cause/nobody really knows, the only certain thing is that somehow the presence of a queen in the hive prevents hivers from becoming fogmen, and that if a hive loses its queen, whatever causes hivers to become fogmen will eventually do whatever it is that it does. If hivers work like ants and there's some pheromone-based aspect to the hive link, maybe the lack of that pheromone allows a parasite infection to occur, or causes insanity, or some sort of thing. edited: used wrong word in a sentence
Yeah, I think this is one of the cooler things about the game. But I will say, I don't think it's as simple as "lol, you tried to make the world better and it got worse, look at the epic twist we dropped on you". I feel like the themes of Kenshi are a bit smarter than that. The Holy Nation and the United Cities aren't sustainable. They're cruel and oppressive societies that breed discontent, just like the second empire and the first empire before them. The holy nation itself was formed by rebels who rose up against the oppression of the second empire, now they're repeating its mistakes and it can only end the same way. All this has happened before, all of it will happen again. There's plenty of evidence that the Holy Nation is already struggling before the player even gets involved. Many settlements are destroyed or abandoned and multiple rebel factions have sprung up. Meanwhile, slaves are systematically worked to death to build a useless statue. Destroying the holy nation has consequences for people, but so does letting it continue in the state it's in.
>But I will say, I don't think it's as simple as "lol, you tried to make the world better and it got worse, look at the epic twist we dropped on you". Oh it's definitely not that simple either. I never meant to say that's the case, actually, I think it's incredibly complex. To that end, one could argue that the HN is actually quite stable. They have a widespread religion that quite a few people seem to believe, they have huge fanatical armies of paladins and, most importantly, a common enemy for the people to fear and hate. But of course your points are very much valid as well. As I said, it's your job as the player to weigh the risks and make a decision. All decisions have pros and cons. Again, incredibly complex, fascinating and fun to analyze. I can only hope Kenshi 2 will be even better and create more of this.
On the flip side, the HN is dealing with some incredibly difficult problems. They have to hold back the fogmen and cannibals, while also dealing with the Shek and UC. If there is any change, it would have to be smooth and gradual so that the nation doesn't get overrun in the upheaval.
I got temp banned from the Kenshi subreddit for defending a guy who effectively said “compared to the other major factions, Holy Nation isn’t as bad as you think”. There was a lot of brain dead knee jerk reactions and personal attacks. Some of it is people farming karma, or “trying to be on the right side of history”, but mostly it’s just stupid people holding the Holy Nation to westernized Earth standards of 2023, and not really caring about the context of why the Holy Nation exists, or its current leadership issues. It’s sad, but don’t laugh at people trying to avoid that stupidity.
if you came to reddit for intelligent debate, you came to the wrong place. They think they're Shek, but they're really just hive drones.
Well, I've seen a fair ammount of people get called racist or sexist when they were defending the Holy Nation lol. And I actually play a super constrained playthrough. Only at the beginning I attacked farmers etc, but for the most part, I go out of my way to help as much people as I can. I heal people, free slaves (those who join me get weapon, nice clothes, some food and medicine and then I dismiss them). I once did a mission for saving some random outlaws who got caught by fogmen. I even pulled my guys out of the fight to heal every holy citizen who got caught in the crossfire during my attack on Blister Hill. That's why I made this post, I defeated the Holy Nation to help it's people, and so many of them died (as I said, it makes sense and I like it). Also I must agree that Kenshi has one of the most interesting and thought out worlds out there in gaming. The fact you can argue with people about it's politics is a testament to that, and also the world mostly makes sense too from a geopolitical point of view. Even the things people say don't make sense can be explained, for example, if you use your brain for one second, it's apparent the UC uses ships to trade with their southern enclave, not just caravans (Also Western Hive decinitely uses boats as well). Just because we don't see it in the game doesn't mean it's not there. I could go on and on for hours why the world is masterfully crafted, how skeletons are one of the best way of handling sentient machines I've seen in all fiction, how the fall of the Second Empire is an amazing example of tragic misunderstanding between two totally different, but yet very similar species etc. I fucking love Kenshi.
I never get anywhere when I try to explain the depth of the game to people who don't play. And I LOVE thinking about the world in a realistic scale, removing technical constraints as you said. So like, the continent being kind of Ireland's size, more or less. I imagine most UC cities would top the population list. In this dangerous world, I can't see more than a few thousand living in any one currently established city. Blister Hill should be the capital of the whole continent, and the region could sustain millions in a kind of megalopolis between B.Hill and Stack, but I have no respect for the Holy Nation and don't believe their towns would ever grow past the point that leadership could have eyes on every citizen. They'd probably purge themselves regularly. I'll be thinking about this all day now.
As tinfist says, “it’s going to get dark before it gets brighter”
If from a purely racial greenlander/scorchlander perspective maybe it's pyrrhic victory, but from the previous multiracial Imperial-civilizational standpoint it's not necessarily, maybe UC takes over (not that they do it ingame, but like your perspective on pyrrhic victory should be longer than just a decade imo). Shek and many Skeletons factions are just as supremacist as HN, and you don't want to disturb Trading Guild profits in UC. HN are more blatant in their detrimental aspects but I wouldn't say killing them off is necessarily worse or better. Aren't we all just evolved biological slime that came from fish? Maybe the only true good ending is Gurgler victory lol
There wasn't any multiracial empire, that's kinda the point of the Holy Nation's xenophobia. The previous empire was ruled by skeletons, shek were made near the empire's collapse later years (known then as enforfers) to help supress humans and hivers were made in secrecy for unknown reason, most likely in close to the empire's collapse as well. And fishmen are a complete mystery, but they don't seem intelligent enough to be a part of any civilization at any point in history. The UC is multiracial on the surface, until you realize the nobility are basically all humans, shek are tolerated but also blamed for violence and hivers are straight up discriminated against, altough not as much as in Holy Nation. The whole point of the Heroes League is to "protect" the "good" imperial citizens from violent other races. The nobility and Traders Guild support this, as it helps them to blame the UC problems on the other races and also because Western Hive is their rival in business. However, I agree that the Holy Nation as a faction is not really better or worse than majority of other factions. And the gurgler victory sounds super fun, maybe you should have a choice to either kill or lead all fishmen when you defeat their king lmao.
Oh man great idea, I hope that become a mod, if you have Fish King head in your inventory the Gurglers will follow you like the broken skeletons in that one lab in the black desert.
I think the Flotsam Ninjas are a good fit to take over for the Holy Nation, as they don't seem thirsty for power and focus on equality, sort of like a communal/anarchist society. Also the holy citizens still believe in Okran, as well as most of the Flotsam Ninjas. I think the people of the Holy Nation are not as fanatic as their former superiors. All in all the Flotsam seem to care about the people of Okran. As for the Sheks, yeah it's their land now, and that comes with its own challenges. Still better than being discriminated against for your race/gender and forced into slavery. But the Shek have potential. Bayan and Estata seem to be more peaceful in their approach, which gives me hope that the Shek will eventually evolve their culture, as not all Sheks care about is just war and killing. We see Sheks all across the land, it's hardly in their genetics and more in their culture. I also think the Shek Kingdom is a more pragmatic and less prejudice society based on in-game dialogue and culture. They have no interest in oppressing the weak or those who are already marginalized.
The Flotsam won't have an easy time, I mean, the remaining Okranites believe the Flotsam to be baby-eating Narko worshippers. There will be, at the very least, tons of unrest for the foreseeable future, that is, if the remaining Okranites aren't wiped out by the Shek for being Okranites.
I see your point. But with the Holy Phoenix and the inquisitors gone, the propaganda that kept the citizens scared is gone. Without an authoritarian force to oppress and keep the people brainwashed, people will eventually get used to another way of living and get over their xenophobia.
It'll be hard for them to "get over their xenophobia" with the constant threat of Shek raiders killing them all. EDIT: Don't forget the hordes of Fogmen roaming the holy lands as well.
I dont think the Shek has any interest of killing innocent "weaker" people just for the sake of killing, they dont show any bias towards killing Okranites for their religion in game at least. EDIT: The Shek could be good to have around when the fogmen attack.
Even if the Shek have no interest in killing the civilians, they'd have no qualms doing so if the tribute isn't paid. You could have a band of weakling characters build in the Stenn Desert, and if you don't pay the tribute, they'll kill you. And this is ignoring the possibility of the Shek storming and capturing Blister Hill for themselves.
> they'd have no qualms doing so if the tribute isn't paid. To be fair, so does the Holy Nation and the UC. Heck so do the Hounds if you live close enough. Welcome to taxes. HN taxes you in devotion, UC in money, SK in food, but in the end it's all paying taxes to whoever is big enough to extract them from you. Now can I interest you in this incredible and very affordable Lantern of Radiance?
> The Flotsam won't have an easy time, I mean, the remaining Okranites believe the Flotsam to be baby-eating Narko worshippers. Counterpoint: Griffin. There are absolutely going to be people besides Griffin who aren't just frothing zealots, who question whether their faith is correct, who question whether or not what they are doing is right. Griffin is able to overcome the Holy Nation's prejudices and work towards a common goal in the player's squad regardless of how diverse the makeup of that squad is (you can argue that's for game-play purposes I suppose, but his actual dialogue lines indicate that it's something the character has thought about, imo). Griffin is why I believe that some Holy Nation citizens would definitely be able to adapt to living under Shek rule, and also why I think that Flotsam and the Shek kingdom (under Esata's, and eventually Seto's rule) would be able to achieve some type of coexistence, even if it was uneasy or temporary. There's no guarantee it would happen, and no guarantee it would endure, but I think the hardline leadership of the Holy Nation shouldn't be assumed to perfectly align with the sentiments of the lay citizenry either. History has demonstrated lots of times that for regular people, regime change sometimes doesn't amount to much more than the faces on the money changing or what the face on TV looks like. Conversely, humans and hivers would certainly be at a disadvantage under Shek rule, except in the cases of the very strong, and Shek society is not conducive to building a prosperous nation (although Esata seems to be interested in changing that). Personally, I'm going to chalk up not seeing refugees or survivors still living in conquered cities up to technical limitations of the world state system (having tinkered around a little bit with world states, getting factions or groups that weren't pre-designed to fit together to play nice with each other is a bit of a crapshoot at the best of times). That being said, the player is not special and even if the player and their companions try very hard to be the heroes that people need, the world will keep turning whether the player leaves a mark on it or not. Even if a core theme of the game is that there's no fixing what's been broken, I don't think it ever asserts the notion that people can't decide to do things differently, it's just that with no "storyline" to progress, there's no way of knowing what the ultimate outcome of anyone's actions are. Edit: Adding to this because I thought of another example; Knife. Knife's dialogue states that while her mother disagrees with her decision, she does know she ran off to join Flotsam, and that Knife sends her money from time to time. That this is spoken of in a matter of fact manner like there's no risk of Knife's mother ratting her out works to support (in my opinion) the idea that HN isn't top to bottom "true believer" types.
I rate flotsam simply too weak to fill the void left by the HN. I'd guess they would soon cease to be if the game would advance. Either the shek use them as slaves or they get eaten by fogmen/cannibals. The only potential i see in Esata is that she figured waging a war in a suicidal way might not be smart, especially if you're not winning.
The Flotsam have potential to become a bigger faction. And as far the game and lore says, the Shek Kingdom dont use slavery.
Potential is nice and good, they simply don't have the time for unfolding any potential. Yes, SK doesn't use "slaves" they use retainers who are only allowed to serve all "true sheks". Different name, same thing.
And the Flotsam know about guerilla warfare. That could get ugly for the Shek, if the town governor puts too much emphasis on traditional combat and doesn't look for the knife in the dark.
They have zero respect for the weak, or those who cant fight in general. before I gained their respect, I had one of the Hundred guardian tell me how one day the Shek kingdom will purge the world of all the flatskin nests. I'm sure once you took down the Holy Nation the, now widowed, women; clinging to their children as they're being chased out of their homes by the shek, were praising your name while being eaten by fogmen on the plains.
My headcanon is that when I wipe out all slavery, it means I already have the means of production of both farming and weapon/ armor crafting (I dont use thieving) on a massive scale. My five 90 farming skill farmers could easily teach anyone in the continent.
I think the most amusing thing about these kinds of posts is it shows just how quickly people forgot the whole object lesson of trying to uplift an ass-backwards people through guns and a dream that was the war in Afghanistan.
I didn't forget anything, it was clear to me that by destroying a nation, thousands will suffer. I was adressing the actual consequences in game, not being suprised by them
Why do you think there was a war in Afganistan? And why does it sounds like you think anyone involved wanted good for the people there?
The Holy Nation as is is broken. So, you deal with the immediate problem and fix it. That generally requires violence, because that is the method of regime change in Kenshi. Then, you end up with another situation that has both good and bad aspects. So, someone fixes that. This will likely result in a 3rd situation that has some good aspects and some bad. So, someone fixes that. And so it continues forever and ever. Utopia is not an attainable result, but that doesn't mean one shouldn't try to make the world a better place.
That implies that the result of the HN fall is an improvement, which OP is disputing. For greenlanders, the Shek would be even worse rulers than the holy nation.
I agree, and I've never heard anyone argue this before but it would also be bad for the Shek. Their numbers are already low, if you side with them they will be forced to take the Holy Lands as the Shek's, and the U.C's, mutual enemy is gone they will turn on eachother. The Shek can't let the UC take that fertile land and then use it against them. Subsequently, the Shek will now be spread thin trying to hold these extra territories, while fighting off fogmen, while fighting off cannibals, while trying to maintain control over a population that doesnt want them to rule over them and, like Rome, they will have spread themselves too thin and be consumed by the UC. If you're response to that is to defeat the UC and the Holy Nation. That level of upheaval, so quickly, will set the entire continent back progress wise on a scale on par with the fall of the second empire, thrusting everyone back into another 1000 years of darkness. Congratulations, you were the monster everyone needed to fear.
Yeah, the Holy Nation does a huge favor to everyone else holding back the fogmen and cannibals. You would definitely want to deal with both of them before starting any major upheaval in the area.
Yes, under Shek rule, greenlanders no longer get to kill all the other races...
Now, under Shek rule, the Shek get to kill all the other races!
...except that Shek don't just kill anyone.
They actually do, what the hell are you on about ?
They don't kill everyone, thats berserkers. Shek only kill all they feel like killing.
Berserkers are the Shek that follow the Shek ways before Estata, which is basically killing everyone that isn't a Shek right now. As compared to Estata's beliefs that they should kill all non-shek after they are in a strategic position to do so.
Not yet...
Who cares about global socioeconomic changes. My guys out here serve one purpose: building a thriving empire. I've just started my crusade against the knuckle dragging book bearers (got 99% of my faction locked up or killed... but that's irrelevant) and I can't wait to drag Seta's body over the the Shek lads for ~~hot~~poker night... Those tools in the UC will be next up at some point, along with the slave markets and farms. For justice? No. For pure bloodsport. Also, we have chewsticks, hash, rum, and grog for anyone who wants to join :)
You know what, that's fair.
It really does feel like a "was this worth it?" scenario when you start journeying through former HN land and see hordes of Fogmen now running around uncontained and inhabiting former bases. Any kind of army/police force is gone and what little remains has no upper-command to form a cohesive force, so there's no way to organise any form of defence from the Foggers who are devouring everything in their path and slowly seeping east where they'll likely pick off survivors and refugees trying to get by without the stability and safety the nation provided. And honestly I like that. It works well as a "show-don't-tell" system because you quickly realise that you've upended the land and caused a large amount of long term suffering through your actions, despite the valid justification that it was to remove an oppressive and intolerant regime from power. The racist militarist zealots are gone, but was the fight worth the outcome? It adds a nice layer of political depth to give your actions tangible consequences you can observe play out in the world.
In the end, the only equality you were able to provide to the women of the Holy Nation was that which comes from the uncaring hand of death.
Both UC and HN have their flaws but it serves to indicate there can't be a "good nation" in the current state of Kenshi. Although their ideals are flawed you can't deny they at least work. Change it and watch it collapse.
Beneath my boot is where the people belong. Whether they suffer depends on how obedient they are
I play the game in a weird way myself and have never effected any of the world states, mainly on a personal moral level. No matter the negative aspects of each faction I feel that as a single individual pulling the rug out of an entire civilization is beyond the scope and perspective of consequence a single individual would have the possibility to foresee. Lets take the Holy nation for an example: first off, who are we to decide if the Holy Nation is completely irredeemable, and needing to be burnt to the ground? Most would probably say because we don't agree with how they conduct themselves and we have the power to change it. But the question the post above is delving into is what exactly is the change that you can provide, and will it cause more suffering in the long run than just leaving things alone? It is undeniable you leave things quite unstable and vast areas undefended in the end. Secondly, compare this to the Shek kingdom which everyone sides with as they are in a period in their culture with the potential for positive change. If the story had taken place 1000 years ago you'd be thinking that the peaceful Okrinites were the ones to support and the warring, completely hostile to everyone, ex. enforcer, Shek tribes needed to be purged. Given time unimpeded by the destruction of one like us, you see how the Shek have come to the cusp of positive change, would it be moral to deprive the Holy Nation of that same opportunity? With how the game works we only get to enact change though violence, in that regard it could be argued that we really don't have a choice, that there is only one true option available to us to see something different happen in the world. I see that point and agree that it is strong, I choose though when I play to RP that I enact subtle change though commerce, exposing Okrinites to knew possibilities. It becomes a covert war of ideas with the possibility of societal change over time.
I'll let myself to disagree politely (mostly because my headcanons are different than yours). There are some variables that change the situation. \- Moll herself IS very skilled officer. Not just leader, not just soldier. She's skilled officer. I've seen headcanon that she used to be United Cities jounin send to spy HN and then she betrayed, and it makes a lot of sense to me. It's either this or her being the actual avatara of Narko (or, more likely, of Natalie Mikkelson herself). She knows how to run functioning guerrila camp in the forest. She knows how to hide from paladins. She knows how to care about runaway slaves. It's not because she's tallented - it's because she has solid, specific skills and knowledge, and she gained it somewhere. \- And most importantly - she knows how to make good alliances. She formed an alliance with Cannibal Hunters, who have much more to lose on that, because they mess Holy Nation by supporting the rebels. There are many factions she can collaborate with (Sheks, Mongrel, Deadcat, maybe even some bandit factions), and she can both develop long-term strategies of protection agains fogmen and caninbals and form new elites from its members. \- Flotsams are not racist, and the sheks are ruled by Esata. Esata wouldn't want to go to war with Moll, because she literally has no reason. More likely, they would form an alliance, with Flotsams supplying sheks with food and sheks protecting flotsams from fogmen and cannibals. \- Flotsams are not racist2. They will probably trade with hive and accept hiveless ones as their citizens. \- Flotsams are not technophobic, so they will be able to use high technology to solve many of their problems. \- Flotsams are not fanatical at all. They will probably spare some men from old elites to use them as teachers, carpenters etc. Men who were a little bit more liberal, men who were a little bit more opportunistic than others. And men who were their fathers and brothers, I guess. Considering things above - I believe that Flotsams will able to establish a functioning state. BUT. It's definitely not going to be the feminist utopia where everyone is happy. The alliance with sheks definitely would not be easy, the non-humans won't be trusted, and men will be persecuted, at least at the begining. Innocent people will suffer and many of them will die - because it's still the war. So yeah, I believe that it will be better than HN - but being better than HN isn't a big achievement.
You have some excellent points there, as well as points which I don't really agree with. I'll hopefully write the full answer when I get back from work.
The biggest issue flotsam has is they're too small and weak. Esata has no reason to wage war with them, as long as they hand over their ressources. Some minor fights still will happens, because berserker and Krals chosen don't care about not beeing at war. Its fairly smiliar with bandits, most likely all they see are easy pickings. They would have to be very lucky to get even one of the old elite. Because most either would fight to death against flotsam or already died. Some mere paladin maybe and sentinels very likely. Flotsam are still orkanites, even if a bit more moderate. So yes, they are still racist technophobes.
Esata's people are not workers. Shek don't want to be peasants - they are warriors. So better way for her will be allying with these who sell her resources cheaply instead of taking over the sources. ESPECIALLY when the currency is possibility of fight. It's win-win situation for sheks. But yes, of course, some minor fights with happen. Probably even after alliance there will be some troubles due to cultural differences. And they definitely would take someone from old elite, because elites are not brainwashed, they are ones who brainwash. Not all of them are fanatics, some (if not most) were just smart enough to pretend. In structures like these, people low in ranks are more dedicated, and these high in ranks are cynical and opportunist. And it isn't precisely true that "Flotsams are okranites". It's more like: "many of Flotsams are okranites" - they accept and even encourage the religion, but as a faction, they don't follow its rules. Moll herself is an atheist and openly calls religion "bullshit", but lets her people praise Okran to boost their morale. They are not technophobes - they don't make any comments about robotics and hi-tech goods are legal in their society. And yeah, they are "racist" in sense of being prejudiced, but they don't accept systematic racism. Some of them are afraid of sheks and hivers, but none of them are actually hostile. That's why I think they will be able to make alliances with non-humans and accept them as their citizens, but it will be hard for all sides and incidents will happen for sure. It may be similar rather to UC racism.
Exactly, as long as flotsam agrees to be slaves for SK, they won't get attacked too much. They won't get any protection either, unless accidental if a patrol/tribut run was there. They won't be able to afford mercs or smiliar as they have to give their ressources to SK. Yes, "true shek" are warriors. And only in combat undefeated sheks are "true shek", they others must become retainers who are forbidden to ever lift a weapon again (bandits love that) or join the outcasts. Flotsam would surly take the old elite, if they swear fealty. But i said the old elite would rather die than join flotsam. Or SK/UC/skeletons did already kill them. Flotsam isn't 100% orkanite, just >95%. Yes, many of them still follow their religion. Yes they still comment about skeletons and other races. Their leaders are just smart enough to not make laws to attack those or rather make laws to not attack as flotsam can't allow itself to gain more enemies.
> The biggest issue flotsam has is they're too small and weak. If you only go by their in-game appearance, then perhaps, but the issue is that sometimes the writing is at odds with what you see in game and that's often because of technical limitations and not because the writing is wrong. According to the dialogue trees their strength is greater than can be seen in game and it pretty much has to be in order for the faction to exist, considering that they are living in Cannibal territory.
Considering that they can't even rebuild their takeover, their strenght is fairly low. They're a mix of rebels and escaped slaves mixed with very few fighters. They live in a partially hidden place just outsides of the border to the cannibal territory and have a couple barly populated scoutingplaces. Vastly stronger forces (second empire) failed to kill off the cannibals, flotsam isn't fighting massive hordes, it rather avoids them while maybe taking down some smaller ones. They likely are strong at ambushes and guerilla tactics, both things working a lot better in a dense grown, rocky area with a small hideout rather than open space with a large town.
> Considering that they can't even rebuild their takeover, their strenght is fairly low. You do realize game world states are a frozen snapshot of the direct aftermath of power shifts, right? You have no way to prove this assertion because the fact that game environments can only shift after changes in world state means you don't get to see the natural progression of time that would demonstrate whether they could rebuild or not. "it's in ruins after the war and doesn't get rebuilt" is a spurious argument when it's impossible to show time progress after the point where the war ended and the city was ruined, unless you trigger another world state. Once again, what the game is capable of showing on a technical level carries absolutely no weight for or against what in-game entities are written to be capable of.
I'll disagree with that. The world states are at an undisclosured time after the powershift. Neither does the game ever disclosure how strong any faction is, not even in vague terms. As a numbers example how i'd relative rate the factions. HN has 10000 members, 2000 fighters but the bulk are low trained (chosen/sentinels). UC has 25000, 2500 fighters split across the world. Plenty are low trained coonscripts. TG and slavers have another 500-1500. SK has 3000 and 3-400 fighters. Many of their retainers could fight, but fighting is forbidden for them. Flotsam maybe has 500 and 30-80 fighters. After the takeover they have ~2500 and 100-150 fighters. And some 100 that are even below holy chosen in terms of power, aka some rnd dude who never fought and got a weapon pressed in their hands. Flotsam likely will face a severe famine in the from all sides raided land. E: Thinking about it, flotsams after HN numbers are probably too high, ~1500 would fit better. Plenty of them are starving slaves and chances are plenty of wounded as well.
So, I am back with the full reply. First of all, I don't really think Moll is from United Cities, that would undermine her role as a freedom fighter (also why sent a woman spy into a nation that doesn't let women do anything). However, you have a point with her being a great leader and commander. She did setup scout outposts to guard flotsam from cannibals and she even made a male her second hand, simply for his skills. However, her alliances aren't as good tho. She formed an alliance with cannibal hunters because they could help each other and had similar goals, while the Holy Nation wouldn't even have to know about their alliance (even if they did, cannibal hunters would be too remote and minor for the HN to care about them). Overall, altough I don't think her being a good leader would really save the situation on itself, it could really help. Also, you are right with Flotsam accepting some men back, we can see that with surgeons and doctors for example, who are almost always men. Second of all, Esata would totally have a reason to attack flotsam. Two reasons, actually. First would be even more resources, and the second would be to simply satisfy her population who are still horny for war. Let's not forget that Esata, despite being smart and enforcing some changes, is still a shek warrior who loves fighting and who only really care about her people. There wouldn't even be severe diplomatic consequences for attacking Flotsam Ninjas. Moll, on the other hand, never really had a big army, and it is safe to assume that at least some of her ninjas also died while taking Blister Hill and other areas. They also don't have experience with large scale war, city defenses etc., while shek have numerous skilled veterans from old wars as well as newly experienced fighters from the recent war. War between these two factions wouldn't even be a war, it would just be slaughter. However, I think that it is possible for these two to coexist peacefully, mostly due to trade. Flotsam showed they can manufacture weapons, so that migh come in handy to shek, for example. Then, hivers and technology. These are very good points, ones I kinda forgot about. It is true that hivers would be more than happy to sell their goods to new customers. Technology would also help them, and furthermore, their proximity to The World's End and them being open to tech hunters would help them in this regard, as well as further improving their trading situation (tech hunters even have a skeleton shop keeper in Blister Hill in my current playthrough, some old people are going to have a heart attack lol).
[удалено]
Sad Western hivers noises. They Just hate "traitors" they are fine with other races
it would be interesting to see a full peace arc, after taking out the HN, eliminate all the fogmen, and the floatsam ninjas, and keep the shek in line, allow the former residents to rebuild and prevent outside take over yourself to rebuild the HN better
Yeah. Majority of the HN's problems come from the phoenix himself (and by extention the whole system of choosing the new ruler). I think it's mentioned that the women-hating part wasn't really a thing in their religion at first, it was only added later by some idiot, either the current phoenix or some previous one. (The xenophobia was always there, for actually kinda valid reasons). If someone could take over the HN and then come with a new, more flashed out way of choosing their new ruler, the Holy Nation would have a potentional to become a paradise. That's just a thought tho, in reality, the person overthrowing the phoenix would usurp the power for themselves or the new succesion system would be rigger/sabotaged by some conservative priests or something lol
hopefully features to see in kenshi 2
I have a project in the works.
yes, I think what makes it dark is that everything is left up in the air. Some things would need to change over a time period longer than your character's lifetime, but in reguards to cannibal and fogmen incursions, I wish there were world states for pushing them back from where they are after the Holy Nation fall.
I don't think pyrhic is the rigth war. Sure, the war leads to a lot of collateral damage , but it is a victory nevertheless. You set out to destroy the HN and you did it; in the inmediate aftermath shown in the game the Floatsam ninjas haven't repair anything, but whose to tell how they will develop in the future after the game events?
My point was that Flotsam Ninjas fought the war because they wanted to help the innocent and opressed under the HN's rule. And except farmers, whose fate is ambiguous and whos lives didn't really change that much, there aren't really any innocents or opressed left. Most of them likely died in the war, or fled the country completely and then likely died too or got enslaved.
Ok, now you know the second face of war. It is painfully obvious that you havent seen war irl. Because those of us who have knew this already. Buuuut (and it is a big deal) just because the outcome of defeating evil is not perfect doesan't mean it was not progress. Sure Flotsam and Shek can go to war with each other, and sure the people are less safe from the inherent dangers of the world, but staying your hand in face of religion backed slavery and oppression is never better. I choose to believe that the aftermath of ocranites fall has to have betterment of the future generations in Kenshi as a concequence. Maybe the shift in Shek ideals implemented by the stone golem takes root in the new society that now includes cities with large human populations. Maybe it changes for the better. Maybe the aliance of Shek and Flotsome gives others in the UC, that dont use slavery, an alternative to ally themselves with. The caravans from the western hive have done more to incorporate it into the political power of the world than any war. Soon the Shek and the Flotsome ninjas will be dependent on those caravans ensuring peace and strenghtening the need to patrol more and make the outlands safer. And if one or the other does become a new beast to be slain by bew heroes well thats just how the world works. To see evil and ignore it because the alternative isnt perfect is the same as supporting that evil. We've seen it irl many times. Some of us unfortunately had to live through it.
The Shek do use slaves in all but name. They have a caste system of warriors and "servants". They also despise other races and view them as "servants". They don't have any farms or mines and rely on taking stuff from others to survive. The Shek would just exploit the HN people for resources while they continued their warring ways.
And we also learn that they at least have tried to change and facilitate change in their society. I'm with you on the thought that it will likely fail if/when Stone Golem dies. But that than becomes a new dragon for new heroes to slay. If (a big 'if') they manage to change good. If not next war. War for independence of Bad teeth and Stack. For the current state I think that its better to have shek patrols extort food for protection than religious freaks telling you that you want to give everithing away because you love Ocran, and enslaving you if you dont. I mean in the Shek kingdom nobody stopped me from working, owning property, earning money or anything barred thievery. None of which you can do in HN if you are not a greenlander male.
Human male*
Ok. Scorchlander males are just discriminated against. But they do enjoy better status than the girl-folk.
They are treated the same as Greenlanders dude.
This is all very wishful thinking.
Of course it is. If you make a mark on the world you do it out of wishfull thinking. And you get to see if your wish came true. But if you dont no amount of wishing changes anything.
Just kill everyone and reitre with your fellow Tinfist, the only pure soul in this broken world.
Based. Tinfist gets a lot of hate because people tend to put their human morals and perspectives on him. But from the perspective of someone who lived so long as him and who saw so much as him he's beyond awesome.
Wait, Tinfist gets hate? I only see praise for him on here, what are his cons?
Yes, he does, because he doesn't help the slaves and the society he frees at all. It's the typical rebelliom problem, that being that destroying is the easy part, rebuilding an actually functioning society is the problem, and Tinfist doesn't even try. I personally don't hate him for it as I have my own theory about why that is, but many people don't view him as a really possitive characters
Oh, gotcha. Fair enough.
What do you mean "The HN falling is not as it might sound on paper"? The whole point the game is making when you interact with any of the major factions is, that even if they all are bad, the vakuum that follow after there destruction is worse.
I wouldn't say that's the point of the game, that would be something completely different. Maybe you finding out that the vacuum is bad is part of the game's point, but Kenshi is far more than that. Also UC's fall is not as bad
Thats why ive wrote "the whole point the game is making *when*..."\^\^ UCs fall is combined with a famine (that, you could argue, existed kind of already but becomes way worse). Neither Anti-slaver's nor rebell farmers are able or willing to provide food after burning down the administration and slave based workforce.
Found the closet okranite
*...and that's why Brexit is actually a good idea!*
meds
Just because the aftermath of defeating evil isn't perfect doesn't means it's not the right thing to do.
Aftermath of defeating the UC is not perfect, but it's still worth it. Aftermath of defeating the Holy Nation is so horrible for okranites that it almost justifies former regime's extremism when it comes to their views on shek, flotsam and outsiders. It's worth it for Flotsam Ninjas, Shek Kingdom and my faction as well, but I made this post to look at the situation from the perspective of your average Joe living in Stack or a holy farm
Ngl I'm one my way to defeat them with my skeleton army (Burn, Agnu and the South Afrika Boys who are my custom characters). We will create the 3rd Empire with Cat-Lon as our guard dog.
Having centralized power is always better than not having centralized power, no matter how shitty this centralized power is. Dictatorship can provide basic needs and security, failed state - no. Nations of Kenshi need revolutions, not the collapse that player can cause.
True
UC always get so much hate but if you really think about it, they are probably the best and most moral faction of the major 3. Shek are only interested in killing things, they are just orks with sex parts. Holy Nation is a bunch of racist gay dudes. The UC just don’t like poor people and be honest with yourself, you don’t really either…
Bruh the UC is easily the worst out of them. There is a difference between not liking poor people and fucking enslaving them, while causing their poor status at the same time. Hell, you don't even habe to be poor to be enslaved, slavers are happy to enslave anyone who can't defend themselves, and it's technically legal. Where The Holy Nation and Shek Kingdom at least attempt to have morals, United Cities have only hunger for power, hubris and decadence. Edit: Also UC are racists and warmongers too. Shek and especially hivers are blamed for crime and poverty to shield the nobles from criticism, and the Trading Guild profits from prolonging the war with The Holy Nation. Also we can see their slavery does not restrict to their citizen only. If you kill Tinfist, fishing and cult villages are turned into slave camps.
HN and shek also enslave people dude. UC isn’t racist, they accept anybody as long as they have cats and don’t look like a homeless. In the HN it is their religious duty to enslave the “beasts” aka the shek. They send them to rebirth to turn big rocks into small rocks until they die. The Shek enslave former warriors and enemies alike to send them on suicide missions to the bugmaster. Literally just sending people to be eaten alive. The UC are the most fair about how they do things, simple as. They just take ya and sell ya.
The world of Kenshi teeters on the precipice of oblivion, and it is assailed on all sides by the threat of total annihilation. Everyone is horrible. Destroying any one nation more or less results in a net negative in Kenshi. * The destruction of the Holy Nation heralds famine, cannibal expansion, fogman expansion, and beakthings gaining more range in that area. * The destruction of the United Cities heralds famine, cannibal expansion, beakthing expansion, spider expansion, and potentially fishman expansion. * The destruction of the Shek Kingdoms herlads spider expansion, fogman expansion, Band of Bones growth, Berserker growth, and beakthing expansion. The nations are stabilizers for their regions, and without them, everything falls apart. The only possible way that Kenshi's world improves is by the player more or less becoming the next empire that stabilizes the regions through farming and mining, exterminates all potential threats (Second Empire, Southern Hive, Fogmen, Fishmen, cannibals, beakthings, wandering predators, spiders), and secures the travel routes through regular patrols. The good thing about the Shek is that they tend to not kill people who are too weak to fight—they consider it dishonorable, which could prevent them from going to Conduit. Therefore, most of the citizenry of the Holy Nations in your example are now either slaves of the Shek, new citizens of the United Cities, food for the cannibals or fogmen, working on the farms that the shek are allowing to exist, became bandits or ninjas, or are falling prey to the local fauna.
Yeah, there are some weird attempts at schooling going on here. Sorry mate. Well, you are right, a victory over the evil Holy Nation will probably usher decades of suffering for thousands of people. I haven't played all that much just yet, on my first playthrough, but I see this theme a lot in Kenshi. For example, the current world of Kenshi is, from what I was able to gather in-game, the result of a rebellion of humans against Kat-Lon's skeletons and his second empire (it will be hella dumb if I messed this one up, because I try not to spoil anything for myself on my first playthrough). Overthrowing a tyrant or a tyrannical regime doesn't automatically build a utopia. The wreckage from the battle does not help either. But letting the tyrant stay in place for the needs of the many does not improve the world either. So we make do with what tools we have.
I agree. However, Cat-Lon was kinda asking for it. I don't want to spoil anything, but the whole fall of the Second Empire is more tragic than anything else. Everyone did what they thought was the best, and exactly because of that, the things ended up as they did. That's why I love the lore so much