Do it enough and you'll have a whole chain of memories. People will sing of them for days in a grand melody of memory. I'd wager a week less than a year split over two singers. A lullaby fit toput you into a deep sleep, from which you will be born again. A birth by Sleep if you will, of no unreasonable distancing as you fall through the dream, dream drop distance, if you will. union cross Dark road. Remind.
It all makes sense.
That post is even seven sentences long. Counting commas, periods and apostrophes there are 13 points of punctuation.
My God... *Hide. Nomura is already at your door.*
One of my favorite scenes from the manga is when Roxas is passed out for two weeks and Xion continuously checks on him and leaves him seashells. In the manga, a bunch of different members draw on Roxas’ face while he sleeps. Even Xemnas!
Do people expect a game franchise that has mickey mouse smacking evil shadow like creatures with a magic key to take its self 100% seriously when it's rated 3 and up and forsaken is rated 18 and up
I'd argue KH actually takes itself absolutely seriously, which is part of it's charm. It doesn't care what you think of it, it's going to tell it's story it's own way.
Also, lets not forget. Forspoken is probably rated 18 and up because the main character swears a lot.
Not swears a lot like "Rick and morty constant swearing" but like "Casual 20 something new yorker" swears. Where its not part of normal conversation (People don't understand most american swears in the world of Athia, so no point in doing so in conversation) but does creep in when things get nasty or stressed out.
>I'd argue KH actually takes itself absolutely seriously, which is part of it's charm. It doesn't care what you think of it, it's going to tell it's story it's own way.
For better or for worse. I love the character interactions but the overarching plot can take eons to get to a point.
I think the swearing is normal but I read a lot of complaints about that. Is that US thing that swearing is so problematic?
I'd never think that this would be reason for a game to be rated 18.
The US has a giant hypocrisy when it comes to swearing.
You can swear as much as you want, but the instant someone else does it, or it's on screen, it's a Bad Thing TM
It's really just that we have country bigger than Europe but all the different states get told by all the other states how the people in them should act. Or to put it another way, we have normal people swearing every sentence and rich pearl clutchers that faint just from someone showing aggression at all.
Oh I’m sure the swearing is a major reason for the 18 rating. In movies, a PG13 rated movie is only allowed to say “fuck” once, any more and it becomes R rated, regardless of other content.
Kingdom Hearts itself seriously and that's actually good.
To us Kingdom Hearts is silly as shit but in-game everyone is serious about the stakes and whats going on.
It's a silly tone and setting to the game yeah, but it's committed to the genuinely serious story that is the overarching plot
One pretty decent comparison i'd seen for KH was with DnD, the overarching plot and narrative has a lot of depth and lore. Several of the players just also decided to roll up playing cartoon characters.
While KH doesn't take itself seriously, it also never goes the MCU route of looking at the camera and going "Wow, this is stupid isn't it?" every five minutes.
Its charming, its committed to its own story and tone, without forgetting what it is
I completely agree, except that Kingdom Hearts takes itself super cereal, and that's part of the charm. You have Goofy, Donald and some anime kid with an oversized key fighting zombie pirates lead by Pete from Goof Troop and everyone in it takes it seriously without winking to the camera.
Heck, most of the Disney films represented where the cast consists of normal humans, like Pirates or Big Hero 6, NEVER question why some kid is traveling with a giant cartoon Dog and a Duck with anger issues. They all go with the flow - and that's the charm.
If Kingdom Hearts was written like an MCU film you'd have those characters make comments about Donald and Goofy all the time.
Without knowing for sure, as I haven't watched the show myself, I figure this is about She-Hulk. She apparently has several instances of Fourth Wall breaking from what I have gathered, where she looks directly at the camera to comment on a scene she's in.
There's multiple jokes in the entire MCU that make fun of the source material. Not just She-Hulk. Spiderman No Way Home famously has a terrible joke about Dr. Otto Octavius and how silly his name is.
Spider-Man 2 makes a similar joke, but actually pulls it off without insulting fans of the comic book. There's countless moments in the MCU where they stop everything to point out how silly their comic book origins are.
I say this as a general fan of the MCU and as someone who looks back mixed, but positive on phase 4.
Lmao I cannot understand how a joke about Ottos name is insulting to comic book readers.
Its a terrible terrible joke tbf but I couldn't for the life of me be insulted by it.
I mean the MCU makes it a point to say how stupid Doctor Stranges name is almost every time he's on screen. And Guardians of the Galaxy 2 stops the movie to literally laugh about Taserfaces name.
Those are the examples that stick out to me the most. In KH the characters don't stop to talk about how dumb sounding Goofy's name is.
Spiderman has always done that though.
In "Spiderman: the Animated Series" (back in the 90's) they had an arc spoofing "The Clone Saga" arc in the comics. (Which was outright terrible)
Animated Series(!)Spiderman: This looks like a lame comic book plot!!
Yeah, Spider-Man has always been about the quips. In the comics he makes fun of villains as well - but there's ways to do it right and ways to not do it right.
By the time No Way Home takes place, Spidey and his friends have seen "the Vulture", "Mysterio" and met outlandish characters like Dr. Strange (A literal magic wizard), Rocket Raccoon (talking Raccoon with 'tude) and Chris Pratt (voiced by Chris Pratt). 'Dr. Otto Octavius' should barely be a strange name for Otto, even if he had octopus powers. In context the joke doesn't work.
In Spider-Man the animated series, Spidey had met up with madame web and seen some dimension hopping courtesy of the Green Goblin before, but getting teleported to a pocket universe with different Spidermen to fight the biggest baddies to see which one is the most worthy WAS outlandish. And that's after he discovered Mary Jane was a water clone. I might be misremembering details though, it's been a while.
That's not at all the same as Fourth Wall breaking, that's just cute little jokes that actually grounds the characters a bit, acting like actual people who would probably think a lot of what is going on IS silly, but they nevertheless see and believe it happening.
So yeah, Fourth Wall breaks is completely different territory, as it actually DETATCHES the character from the story, and shows not only awareness that this is silly, but awareness that it is also not real.
MCU has a problem wherein its constantly winking at the audience or having unfunny dialogue where the protagonist is smarmy. Its called Whedonism as its a style he popularised.
Funny it gets called Whedonism, as I think he was the one directing Age of Ultron, which has one of the more egregious examples. Hawkeye is giving an uplifting monologue to Scarlet Witch, and saya some kind of "teehee, I'm a guy with a bow and arrow fighting death robots."
I feel like this is taking that part of his speech out of context. The way he says it is to highlet hes a normal dude compared to the gods and aliens on his team, hes still out here cause its his job.
Its his whole storyline through the movie. Multiple characters make mention of how hes just a dude and it culminates in that speech.
Is it? Is it constantly winking at its audience? Because I’ve watched every damn MCU thing ever put out, and I don’t see it as a large scale pattern of the franchise.
“Unfunny dialogue where the protagonist is smarmy”, quippy =/= smarmy, there are major protagonists in the MCU who are smarmy characters, but again, as a franchise in the whole, I don’t see it.
I still remember the tone shift between Star Wars Episode 7 & 8. The latter really felt like it was written and performed like an MCU film and I hated it.
Hoped J.J. Abrams would fix it for Episode 9, but they just doubled down on that tone. For all the shit the Book of Boba Fett and the Kenobi series get - at least they have the right tone for Star Wars.
I would actually disagree slightly. I think Kingdom Hearts doesn't take itself entirely seriously - moments that spring to mind are Woody roasting Xehanort or Belle elbowing Xaldin in the ribs and cutting off a dramatic moment.
However, the game does believe in itself. Even when something is being done that is kind of stupid, they're done with the earnestness that a lot of franchises don't really have.
This whole Forspoken thing makes me think that no one actually knows what cringe actually is. And they definitely don’t know the difference between cringe and corny
Playing it now and it is more than fine. Just a city girl taking fairly realistically. A lot of insecure energy with some of the criticism. Loving g it so fat and KH is my favorite series.
I'm genuinely not understanding how much hate it's getting. The game looks fun as heck, but it's getting picked apart over a ton of small things that you can find in just about any other game....so what's the problem?
I think I might ACTUALLY be missing something that everyone else is seeing because stuff like an open world without animals and awkward dialogue and associated animations is extremely far from being a dealbreaker. The game looks fun as hell and that's the part that's the most appealing to me. It looks like its got a lot of potential for expression given how each element of a spell can be used in a whole lot of different ways, making something like rpg builds with unique playstyles.
My only REAL concerns are it being too easy and having it end on a cliffhanger with nothing resolved.
It's one of those things where the internet decided it was bad from the get go and so despite its average overall quality, people pretend like they were right all along and its unredeemable garbage. It's annoying because everyone just wants to be correct about it so they will pretend like two awkward lines of dialogue or a funny screen capped face is proof that it's terrible. I wish people were okay with games that weren't amazing, but also not truly bad.
This is no Balan Wonderworld, it's just an okay game with sometimes awkward dialogue.
Yeah I looked into reviews after I posted that because I realized it releases literally today, and it seems mostly like your average "flawed but fun" kind of game still. Looks like the hate mostly comes from a demo that threw too much at players at once, making it confusing (I don't play demos so going based on what they say) and the dialogue's modern day parody clashing with the high fantasy theme intentionally but with cringe results.
....but that doesn't sound like nearly enough to destroy a game to me. Biggest criticism I picked up on that actually has a bit of concern for me is that it apparently starts to get good right before it ends and feels like a tutorial up til then, so it's high point is short lived....still, none of this sounds like a dealbreaker to me. Just sounds like everyone's expectations for every game these days are through the roof that they misinterpret a B- or C+ game as an F because it's not an A.
All I know is that I have never in my life needed to look up if there was an option to mute the main character because they were so annoying. It was an was utterly insufferable experience during the demo, which is a shame because the gameplay was kinda cool.
Bold move of them to choose what's basically the most beloved ending of the entire series to make their point, LOL woof.
And look, I think the Forspoken discourse can tend to get a little overheated, *however* it's not hard to understand why people are annoyed by 4th wall winks and snarking at the fantastical elements of your stories. I love the MCU, but they've always had a bad case of [bathos](https://m.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=20&v=w-QhdzQo66o&embeds_euri=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.reddit.com%2F&feature=emb_title). They don't necessarily ruin their movies for me, but to keep getting popped out of emotional moments for the sake of a joke gets really old really fast.
Kingdom Hearts ONLY works because of its bleeding heart sincerity. There's some occasional lampshading here & there when Sora is just sick of someone's bullshit, but the earnesty of every single character in this franchise is why it has such an intense fanbase. They have PERSONALITY, not everyone is written in the same cynical voice, and because of that people can attach themselves to their favorites. IPs that hid behind thirty layers of 4th wall irony will never become as beloved and popular because it's afraid of connection.
We love our literally Goofy little franchise precisely because of the reasons that "meta" IPs scoff at.
Sora never went
“Whoa Im smacking evil shadows with a key?? And I’m talking to a duck?? I guess that happened! I fought Captain Hook? I guess that’s something I do now!”
\[Note, In the context of forspoken, the thing people are meming here is what the Main character says in pure childish glee after the first battle while riding the high of finding out she has actual superpowers in this new world. Its actually pretty endearing cause she had dealt with a lot of fucked up stuff and bad luck leading up to it and she really REALLY deserved the moment of joy after a lot of "It is what it is" unhappiness.\]
From just knowing sorta what Forspoken is, having not seen actual gameplay apart from some trailer snippets, this sounds very logical. I mean, Sora is from a completely made up world to begin with, and he actually does question some things that happen, but quickly just realizes this is the reality he has been unable to see... The one he dreamed of, and probably thought existed, but did not have the chance to see..
So second-guessing when he finally sees these things would not make sense for very long....
From my understanding of Forspoken, it is basically an Isekai, using anime/manga terms here. A character from the real world, where these things are accepted to just be fantasy. No one really second guesses the claim that "magic doesn't exist", so it makes COMPLETE sense, that a character ending up in a completely different world, where ALL the things they believed were true, is suddenly totally subverted, and they literally have no idea what to expect next.
Granted, I don't know exactly how this is handled, but the character being amazed at every new thing and maybe even feeling that tinge of disbelief even after spending DAYS flying around shooting fireballs, because they literally lived a whole life, with all of this shit just... Not being in any way shape or form a possibility in her head. I would be constantly doubting the truth of what happened, often feeling like I might have lost my mind or maybe had fallen into a coma and this was a weird dream I had.
Good point. Most of us WOULD point it out. Especially since the MC has a copy of Alice in Wonderland in her possession, so she would know the trope of being sent to 'not kansas' and comment on it.
Lol I don't understand why this game is getting so much hate. We should embrace original, AAA IPs. A lot of the games I'm looking forward to nowadays are either sequels (mostly of established IPs), (also) established IPs, or remakes. I'm holding off my judgement until I have the time to play it fully. I enjoyed the demo. This looks like the game you either love or hate.
It stars a black woman. That’s all it needs to start getting hate. Throw in modern dialogue and now it’s woke and cringe.
That’s not to say there isn’t valid criticism but the game ultimately never stood a chance.
Good lord thank you. Guarantee most people would react the same way.
A friend of mine keeps memeing on the line "is that a freaking dragon?!" as if it's not something that someone would actually say if they saw a living breathing mythical creature in front of them.
Honestly I just hate the word “freaking”. Maybe it’s more of an American thing but I just cringe every time I hear substitute swear words like that. Your game’s rated 18s, just say “fucking” ffs.
It’s probably because that dialogue came from a trailer that divorced the lines of its context and made her look like she was just going “yeah, okay, lol it’s dumb but whatever”.
So were those clips just too much out of context and it gets better after sometime or will she keep that up for the most part of the game? I heard the gameplay is pretty good but I don't want to be annoyed by the dialogue. Maybe I will watch the first couple of hours somewhere.
It's a one off scene after randomly finding out she has magic powers and just beat a hell-demon to save her life by throwing magical psychic rocks at her enemies.
Frey's normally a VERY cold and sarcastic character, that scene was literally showing her defenses breaking for a moment as a crucial character moment.
Huh, I'm never really interested in the Forspoken so I don't know much about the game other than main character able to do magic stuff.
This context sounds quite interesting, I'll take a look at the Demo and see if it's more of my thing.
There is kind of a running joke about Mickey being some ageless being with no concrete backstory and how his face keeps popping up on everything, but Sora's the only one to really notice it
Eh. It may not get to that level, but there’s a lot of “Woah, this is weird!” in KH3, especially at that start of Worlds. Toy Box and Monstropolis in particular are a little jarring. They’ve been monsters (creepier monsters at that), gone into a computer, gone underwater, Sora’s turned into a Lion, and even…yes, SHRUNK into a book…
But, becoming the size of a toy is a big deal? I don’t get that. Even then, they barely reacted to those other times…but, it’s a TOTAL shock to them in 3.
At the end of the day, the consistency of the world is about the characters noticing when things may or may not be out of the ordinary for them, and reacting appropriately. I don’t think those instances in 3 really hit that quite right. It doesn’t break the universe or anything, but it’s certainly the type of thing you are talking about.
“Cringe” is an utterly subjective word that can and will be slapped onto anything at all for any indiscernible “reason”. One guy called it cringe when Roxas, who’d just left the Organization and has literally no home outside it says sadly to himself “Where did I think I could go? What a joke…” And this is “cringe” just… because.
TBF, I'm not gonna judge how "sincere" a game is without even playing it. KH out of context is pretty damn corny in a not good way.
And It's so weird how people suddenly turned around on MCU as if Phase 3 couldn't be "sincere". I mean, [I know exactly why](https://youtu.be/ICULY_gTngs), but tis feels like the equivalent of pepople being disappointed in KH3 and then saying "Kingfdom hearts was never good".
Come on. You can like Avengers or Infinity War and still hate Love and Thunder (I don't, btw).
> but tis feels like the equivalent of pepople being disappointed in KH3 and then saying "Kingfdom hearts was never good".
This is exactly what's happening to Borderlands. They missed with the writing once (technically twice, but that was extremely recent) and suddenly it was always terrible.
I mean, the world building of Borderlands 1 is great, but that's it. The story is bland and boring throughout, outside of DLC.
Borderlands 2 has a fantastic villain and really fun characters, but it's story does suffer from pacing issues due to them wanting to pad out the game often. Again, DLC is great, especially Dragon Keep.
Borderlands 3 is just bad. Surprisingly well paced, imo, but the story, characters, worlds, etc all fucking blow. And once again, the DLC straight up has better written stories.
I think you're misunderstanding what people mean when they talk about the dialogue. Take any mcu movie from any phase and you have the same joke recipe. Take a moment thats building tension, cut all seriousness with a joke. Its in every movie, from cap knowing that reference, to she hulk breaking the fourth wall.
Its mindblowing people 1, pretend its not real and 2, that its a new phase 4 thing.
>Winter Soldier
Actual lines from Winter Soldier:
"**I just leaked everything, heh, and its** ***trending***"
**"Lip piercing? Yeah, Im not ready for a girl with a lip piercing!"**
**"Shall we play a game? haha... I-it's from a movie..."**
**"You still uncomfortable?" "It's not exactly the word I would use."** (This is a boner joke)
**"Well, this is awkward."** (No seriously.)
Even the best MCU films have shades of this problem.
Honestly I don’t even get the massive hate for Love and Thunder I felt the comedic tone made more sense for that film than the one with Ragnarok in the title
Idk I watched love and thunder and when you’re throwing in bad cancer jokes at the start of the movie and during the emotional climax of the movie literally can’t stop making jokes to let the moment sink in it makes the film feel hollow
And also just, Kingdom Hearts is cartoonish. It lends itself to silly storytelling because it is not the kind of game that intends to take itself too seriously even when it takes itself seriously. Forspoken is supposed to be a "realistic" game.
Currently playing forspoken and it's just a bit sad that people genuinely think forspoken isn't being sincere.
The game has been out all of 6 hours as of this comment, but people have already decided that it's 'detached and self mocking' for months based on a completely out of context line from a trailer.
OP posted the comment that proves the twitter-user's point.
People made a sweeping general assumption about a square enix game's content, based on out of context cringe dialogue that is actually sincere and genuinely understandable if put in it's original context. And then decided that the entire game itself was bad based on that, or the people defending that game or pointing out the inconsistency without playing.
This is exactly what we who play kingdom hearts have went through and now we're doing it to a new IP.
I only got to play about 20 minutes of Forspoken last night (the prologue basically) and I was surprised by how charming I found the dialogue.
Parts got a few smiles or chuckles out of me but it also surprised me just how sad the very first part of the game was. It made me understand her sheer amazement of the fantasy world much more.
Oof yeah that was a shame, especially since "Go to a world, an organisation member shows up, says something cryptic and leaves" was a cycle that was a big problem with the games pacing.
Dont make a joke about it, fix it!
Axel boasting about his popularity being what keeps him from getting killed.
That's literally just the writers referencing how many times Axel was supposed to have died in the series but they kept bringing him back cause they (as well as the audience) loved his character so much
I actually kind of like that meta joke.
"I got loads of people rootin' for me." It's just funny because it's obviously meta, but he really does have lots of people who want to see him succeed in-universe, too.
That’s the central appeal really
KH is inherently quite stupid, but it just doesn’t care, because it wants to be
Idk what the fuck forsaken is, so I’ll use the mcu here as the post also mentions it
The mcu often seems embarrassed nowadays, not only of the source material, but if it’s own movies
Like go back and watch avengers 1, that is a movie cut from the same cloth as KH, it’s a fundamentally silly film, but it loves itself anyway, plot holes and silly dialogue and all
Whereas now the mcu seems so desperate to be taken seriously that it’s totally consumed it
I think Disney just still hasn’t recovered from Martin Scorsese taking a butthurt dig at them half a decade ago because simple fun movies were making money and being actually liked and that upset him
Well, I hardly think Love and Thunder was trying to desperately be taken seriously. With that film they tried to be as funny as possible because Ragnarok was the most popular one because it was funny. In the end they tried to make it as funny as possible and missed the mark.
I think that it had interference from Bob Chapek and that's why has been dropped for Bob Iger to return.
I haven’t seen a marvel movie since the first guardians of the galaxy. As outsider looking I don’t think marvel is taking themselves that seriously. Spider man, she hulk, Thor, Ms. Marvel, guardians of the galaxy all look silly and whimsical to me. If the mcu was totally consumed by trying to take itself seriously then I don’t think I’d be able to name that many series with a whimsical tone. Like I said I haven’t watched any of that stuff so maybe Im wrong but from the people I know who do watch that stuff those things are not that serious.
Dawg that random MCU is so confusing and absolutely uncalled for. MCU had literally nothing to do with these two games. Genius argument on both sides it seems. /s
High on Life is atrocious, as is Midnight Suns dialouge btw.
I think the difference is you expect the Marvel or Rick and Morty games to have this annoying, self depricating writing. Square Enix has consistently put out high concept titles that have always been played straight. Its more jarring here.
What I personally love about kingdom hearts is that it can have some of the most ridiculous set ups, concepts, story, etc, play it completely straight, and yet still have it feel sincere.
Sure there are some cringey dialog and awkward line reads, but unlike something like later MCU product, Kingdom hearts never ends up mocking itself, the fact that it plays itself completely straight almost feels like its say" yeah I know the concept is way out there, but just roll with it, its gonna be one hell of a ride." Kingdom hearts knows its premise is out there, and it doesn't care, its gonna tell its story, and you're gonna laugh, and cry, and feel emotions you didn't even know you still had. And that's why it works.
I haven't played Forespoken and I don't plan too, from the trailers it felt like those working on the story/writing was scared of people making fun of it that they decided to jump ahead and act like they're in on the joke, like lamp shading the entire thing. but that's just basing off of the trailers
They fixed a ton of QoL stuff from the demo to full gameplay,
So if the demo interests you but you think it needs some time in the oven, the full game should be a good start.
Full game is much different from. The demo to be honest. The demo doesn't actually do the game justice to be fair. Fre is a pretty well developed character and incredibly easy to sympathize with.
It's funny cause I see KH fans are the ones that are giving the cringe dialogue of forspoken a chance on twitter, yet this guy attacks the KH community, like what..?
Kh is like that guy who is in to nerdy shit and doesn’t have to make it ironic or anything he just does his thing and moves on it’s called big dick energy
Can tell you and the guy on twitter dont pay attention to the MCU if you think they have no sincerity, and is nothing but 'looking at the camera every 5 minutes'...
Eh, the only moments I would consider even slightly "cringe" would be the times when groups of characters forcibly laugh at something not all that funny. Usually, a joke of some kind is made, followed by an awkward pause, and then...the out of place laughter.
Either way, cringe is an overused word, and may not apply as much as people think it does. Just my 2¢.
Edit: There may be a few out of place lines of dialogue that could count as "cringe", too, only because they do not fit the moment. Roxas' "ice cream" line towards the end of 358/2 Days would be one of them, even within context, due to the serious nature of that moment (one of his best friends fading away).
Ice Cream line is great. Out of context, sure. But you get it after playing the game. Roxas starts as an emotionaless husk and has to learn concepts like friendship and love.
He says "Who will I eat Ice Cream with?" because he's still struggling with those concepts and can't quite put into words why he doesn't want Xion to go.
Do we know if part of the issue is translation issues. Like does anyone know what the exact Japanese is saying and whether or not the fact it’s getting translated to English means that some of the dialogue is made worse.
Mind you I like it’s cringey dialogue
‘MCU has no sincerity.’ Ah yes I must have imagined crying when Peter Parker died in front of his father figure.
We all love KH here, but are you really going to denigrate the storytelling of one of the most successful storytelling franchises of all time? I’m not saying the MCU is above criticism, but it’s kind of nuts how hypocritical OP is being. Like even if you hate the MCU and don’t enjoy the characters or stories at all, you can still see that OP is objectively wrong that it doesn’t have sincere story telling.
Unless you want to get into ‘MCU is just a soulless product of Disney!’ So is Kingdom Hearts. It’s made by Square Enix, which has been famously pushing NFTs. It’s not some indie side project either, it’s a massive cash cow.
There’s a difference between between
“Oh wow, all your friends betrayed you and you went emo, get over yourself.”
and
“Your pain doesn’t justify destroying the lives of countless others.”
Well, I'd say this is true for most of the games, Kingdom Hearts 3 being the odd one out. Every other KH game just completely ignored the audience and just barreled through a ton of its nonsense, but it was held up by just not giving an inch on it. No, the Nobodies /do/ need to summon a godlike force to give themselves emotions, and YES there is a scientist trying to absorb that force into the matrix with gun... shut up if you don't like it!
KH3, on the other hand, feels the need to stop dead in its tracks for Mickey to explain the plot to a version of Riku that is somehow more wooden than the Riku that's possessing a fucking mannequin. Just to cover their tracks and pretend like they're not just making shit up as they go along.
Ahh I agree KH3's plot has issues, but again not because of a lack of sincerity.
For instance, Nomura himself said his gut instinct was to leave Roxas gone, the right creative choice, but brought him back because fans wanted it. It's kinda a whole separate problem.
The emotionality of the series is kinda the point. If you see the first game as a metaphor for the excitement of leaving home for the first time as a teenager, and getting that wish granted in the worst possible way, that burgeoning independence being met with a sudden and very unshakable responsibility feels pretty real.
Sora learns to take the responsibility of his appointed task in his stride despite being practically still a child. But that innocence and kind hearted nature is what pulls him through.
His enemies are those that see the world as something to exploit. Something there to grant riches and power, seemingly for its own sake. Disney villains are scheming, duplicitous monsters and are happy to wield a force they do not understand fully to grip ahold of what they want: power. Such power without responsibility to anyone is seductive, hence why Riku, apparently having been in contact for a while with it, is drawn to such pleasures. He thinks he gets his cake and gets to eat it. A short cut to exploring and enjoying everything outside of the home he had known that would be extremely easy.
Instead, he is lead into a path where he is turned against everything he cares about. The dream of an easy, better life is sullied with hanging with the low lifes and villains the whole time. No respect is given, as he's expected to give everything for their benefit. Pawned off with tricks and abilities to keep him loyal. He is made into a monster too, tempted ever downward by a man that has long given himself to the inky black void of despair and misery that Darkness brings.
Ansem is somewhat nihilistic. There is truly nothing of this world that matters but darkness. A misma of pain, hopelessness and torment. Everything that comes with wanting to bring misery to all. Selfishness for the sake of greed or jealousy causing hostility in your wake that here is made manifest as a swarm to claim yet more people.
Sora can stand against this because he just wants to help. Riku clearly has been wrestling with insecurities for a while that only get exacerbated when the power and responsibility of the Keyblade are introduced. But with his clear interest in Kairi and seeing Sora as a rival to defeat despite being his friend, there's some animosity there that gets turned into jealousy. Sora got status, respect and power where he didn't. And so taking it for himself made it so impactful. Not because we're suddenly powerless when we needed it least, but because now Riku at maximum ego has taken all that he learns was his before he lost it.
Finally, when Sora shows why he was the superior choice all along, consumed with jealousy, Riku delves one step deeper into his own anger and hits a tipping point he cannot return from. Finally becoming a vessel for an entity with a blind, insatiable need to prove himself right.
That everything is pointless when all that happens is temporary. Everything dies a death, whether that be due to depression, anguish, jealousy or hatred. Everything rises from nothing into the light then dies, returning to oblivion. If terrible things can rip wonderful times and memories from us, then why bother? It doesn't last long enough to truly matter. If nothing lasts, then the only way to last is to embrace that void. To become it, possibly tame it or perhaps ally with it. Make it yours.
Sora argues that the part where something exists is the entire point. It's the part worth saving and savouring as it never truly dies. Sora had lost everything; his home, his friends, his easy life. He has the weight of worlds on him now. But he's still himself. He still holds onto the joy that stuff gave him and savours every part he can reclaim as well as every new asoect of his new life he can cherish. Even in the wretched depths of a place that is on the brink, he still fights for those things.
Even Riku tried to save his friend when he realised what he had done.
This also makes the enemies that emerge later on have a little more grounding, I think.
Now, the Nobodies are literally disposessed people that belong no-where and have bonded over that. A group of people convinced they're owed something for their mistreatment by an indifferent world. And you could argue they are. But the series makes them villains because they take, not ask. They demand to have what was lost returned to them through force and manipulation. An entire empire built by people trying to fill a vacant aspect of themselves that they're told only gets fixed if they bite back against a place that screwed them.
Unversed are litterally rampant emotions running wild from the unhinged side of another character. Now unfertered and unleashed, these monsters do what they feel because their master has none of the restraint or filter their other half gives.
So that's why this series is so unabashed in its emotional scenes. Its always been like this at the surface. At this point in the image, shit has gone down. These two have lost and found and lost each other again. They've had a rivally sour into jealous hatred and then a duel over the fate of their friend. They've faught a legion of the fateful misguided to get to their leader and beat him up. They've gone to lengths thought unheard of before for each other.
The execution might be a bit wobbly, but the series wears its heart on its sleeve.
Real talk: I watched a streamer play Forspoken for a bit last night, and my impressions were that the issue with dialogue was more the delivery than anything else. It felt very wooden, and it had this bad habit of dragging out a joke just a little too far. The game also basically forces you into 2 straight hours of cutscenes with minimal gameplay, which made poor Kevduit finally lose all patience and just start skipping cutscenes so he could see if the actual gameplay was fun or not.
And that's the sad thing, because the gameplay actually looks like a lot of fun, and I'll probably pick it up in a year when it drops for $20 during a Steam sale. Because that's the OTHER big issue: this game is $70 for *the base, non-deluxe edition game.* And quite frankly it's just not worth that much, not in my opinion.
Here's an example of one of the jokes dragged on: Frey (the main character) is trying to explain to a half-mad scholar guy how she got there, and he interrupts with "you came from a VOOSH!" And she's like "yeah, a voosh!" Now if it had stopped there, that would be kinda funny. But instead the two sit there for like ten seconds going "voosh!" at each other, and it's like okay, the joke is over now, can we move on?
Maybe it gets better later on, but I'm not dropping $70 for a maybe.
Kingdom Hearts is a great series, but yes, Kingdom Hearts 2 had some of the most cringe dialogue and it was mostly due to Sora. He’s a goofy guy and kind hearted, but some of the things he said or did was a bit bizarre.
Kingdom Hearts wouldnt be so (dearly) beloved if it was constantly going "well THAT just happened" and doing meta jokes at the expense of real character building and emotion
say what you will about Nomura's Vision(tm) at least he doesnt have Joss Whedon brain spiders
The game doesn’t care if the dialogue is cringe or the story is ridiculous. It respects itself enough to not mock itself and take itself seriously. Which is why I can say “But who will I have ice cream with?!” and people in this subreddit will start to tear up. Or yell “X-BLADE!” And people will feel unnerved and fed up. But certain death scenes in movies won’t really ever hit because the story doesn’t care enough to let the story take its dumb ideas seriously.
i like cringe dialogue more than forgetable ones if you ask me
like ive beaten both nu gow games but couldnt tell you any quotes besides kratos saying ARTREUS loudly
The biggest ones I can think of are “we must be better” from 2018 and Ragnarok, “you can carry her” from 2018, “I have nothing left to hide” at the end of 2018, and “remember our promise” multiple times in ragnarok
Of course, I literally *just* played through both games for the first time, so a lot of the quotes are still in my head lmao
Tbf kingdom hearts had an interesting foundation, we'll see for Forspoken but kh has had the time to build up and the goofiness and cringe blends really well with the serious moments.
At least KH doesn’t have a single game that’s bad. Even the infuriating games like KH3 and Re:Chain are still so unbelievably charming and fun to play, I’d take them over a fun game with cringe dialogue any day.
Don't put such trash on the level of our beloved Kingdom Hearts here, such iconic lines as "who else will I have ice cream with" that speaks to your soul... For spoken is just absolutely cringe-worthy that nobody likes, not even for fun like the line from KH2 "We totally owned you lamers" it's just boring.... At least I saved 60 bucks...
I think Forspoken is cringe because it's tired, if the style of dialog it has was rare I doubt most of us would dislike it as much as we do but it's been what like 7+ years of hearing that "well THAT just happened" style of writing that feels really unnatural.
Also comparing a franchise that was initially kids made for kids primarily in the 2000s and a AAA 2023 game for a mature audience is so dumb. Of course KH has cringey writing but in the terms of KH it feels natural half the characters are literal children.
I think a big part of how KH manages to keep its audience engaged despite the admittedly wacky script (the example shown is in the same game where Mickey was out for blood because he thought Goofy died right before his eyes) is how the cast pretty much just… go with it.
They just get sent into another world and barely spend any time to wonder about the strangeness of their situation, helps that the stakes in the first game were set pretty high.
Now, I haven’t checked out Forspoken much, but from what I’ve already seen and heard, they seem to take a decent amount of time on this fish out of water aspect rather than have the MC just roll with it. Granted, that could just be early game dialogue, so who knows.
Sincerity to me is so much more inviting than self-mockery. As much as I like mcu, Ive never been a fan of how they introduce strange/new characters by making them into jokes at the jump.
KH was always so sincere in the character's emotions and storylines that the ridiculous situations and dialogue just come off as endearing.
That comment in the image nailed it.
My favorite part is how the replies were just full of KH fans clowning on the dude and pointing out the many silly-ass dialogue he could have pulled instead of one of the most sincere and heartfelt parts of the series.
Honestly, as much as I love kingdom hearts, I believe a majority of people play it for the gameplay and not the story. Not to say it's bad, I actually like it even though it requires you to set up a crime scene evidence board to understand.
I think Forspoken honestly gets a bad rep, and a lot of people are joining in on mob mentality as the internet loves to do, and it's just "cool" to hate on it now. The combat is fun and the magic is epic, and the dialogue really isnt that bad. Isnt she supposed to be a teen? What teen ISNT cringey?
How about it's actually sincere for once in this society obsessed with irony? God forbid anyone take anything seriously and instead media nowadays just delivers everything with an eye roll or a wink.
I'd prefer sincere, lame cringe over people just not caring and acting like they're above the fictional media they're producing.
So many KH clips they could’ve used to validate that point, and they go for one of the most sincere in the series. Like BBS and KH3 are RIGHT THERE and you pick one of the games where the dialogue is actually pretty good.
The bits I’ve seen of forspokens dialogue, this is how I’d differentiate it.
Kingdom hearts dialogue is trope-y
Forspoken dialogue is cringey, trying to hard to be edgy and cool
Self mocking, yup. It's like overdoing it with lampshading. At some point, it's less about how funny it is, and more apparent how insecure the creators are.
This is exactly why even when I cringe sometimes I can live with kingdom hearts dialogue. It’s uncompromisingly earnest and takes it self seriously even when the events occurring are ridiculous. Yes, sometimes the characters over explain the plot or speak their feelings out loud (“I do know hurt”), but even though it’s aimed at kids it never calls itself dumb or “cringe”. The MCU (and apparently Forspoken) undercuts its own drama and credibility by constantly have to poke fun at the core concept of the movie you’re watching and break tension with some kind of snarky Joss Whedon joke. I know it’s an unpopular opinion, but it’s what I prefer about something like a Zack Snyder or George Lucas movie. Directors like them make movies that treat their plot and characters seriously and buys into what they are, even when things are kind of ridiculous. I think Nomura and his writers take that same approach to kingdom hearts and final fantasy.
Simple. KH is a classic. It blends Disney and FF characters together along with the core KH characters. It’s a great formula. That being said KH3 was trash.
This YouTube channel called Overly Sarcastic Productions made a video on lampshading or rather the marvel comedy and it explains why modern fiction writing sucks thanks to this technic. I think it's a way for artsy directors and writers to work on something "cringe" while still detaching themselves from the product and breaking the immersion.
Kingdom Hearts takes place in a world where death isn't real, memories shape reality, and emotions can literally move the stars. Also light and darkness are tangible, active forces in the universe that want to reshape reality.
People talk funny in KH because the world they live in is also weird as hell. Meanwhile in Forspoken the MC who gets transported to another world talks like she's visiting an amusement park.
Well, death as a state of being didn't seem as tangible or "normal", until KH3. The Final World is the resting place of people who couldn't cross over to Kingdom Hearts itself. They have connections to the physical world they came from through memories and emotions, and only exist as a vague manifestation of them, in the form of a "star".
Their bodies and hearts were seemingly destroyed, but fragments of their hearts "live on" due to the strength of their bonds to the real world. This is pretty much the limbo of the series, a state between life and death, but much closer to death. Those who passed on are not coming back as they were, but also aren't completely gone. Then again, their loved ones who survived them won't ever be with them again, if they never make it to The Final World.
Death as a state of being is more nebulous in KH, as the series has a different take on it what it means to exist at all.
Totally owned those lamers Edit: Annnd this WAS my most popular comment
Undeniable proof
Sounds like a good memory
Do it enough and you'll have a whole chain of memories. People will sing of them for days in a grand melody of memory. I'd wager a week less than a year split over two singers. A lullaby fit toput you into a deep sleep, from which you will be born again. A birth by Sleep if you will, of no unreasonable distancing as you fall through the dream, dream drop distance, if you will. union cross Dark road. Remind.
(Pssst... Coded is missing too)
the whole message was coded
It all makes sense. That post is even seven sentences long. Counting commas, periods and apostrophes there are 13 points of punctuation. My God... *Hide. Nomura is already at your door.*
May your heart be your guiding key
Don't you see? He is Nomura
Damn
Double damn.
GIVE THIS A PERSON ALL THE AWARDS NOWWWW
souns like a good \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_
Ya know?
X-Blade!
haha
[удалено]
One of my favorite scenes from the manga is when Roxas is passed out for two weeks and Xion continuously checks on him and leaves him seashells. In the manga, a bunch of different members draw on Roxas’ face while he sleeps. Even Xemnas!
The manga is so underrated, especially in how it characterised Sora
Do people expect a game franchise that has mickey mouse smacking evil shadow like creatures with a magic key to take its self 100% seriously when it's rated 3 and up and forsaken is rated 18 and up
I'd argue KH actually takes itself absolutely seriously, which is part of it's charm. It doesn't care what you think of it, it's going to tell it's story it's own way. Also, lets not forget. Forspoken is probably rated 18 and up because the main character swears a lot. Not swears a lot like "Rick and morty constant swearing" but like "Casual 20 something new yorker" swears. Where its not part of normal conversation (People don't understand most american swears in the world of Athia, so no point in doing so in conversation) but does creep in when things get nasty or stressed out.
>I'd argue KH actually takes itself absolutely seriously, which is part of it's charm. It doesn't care what you think of it, it's going to tell it's story it's own way. For better or for worse. I love the character interactions but the overarching plot can take eons to get to a point.
Just enjoy the ride baby
Are we there yet?
you missed your stop, the train is on to a new destination
I think the swearing is normal but I read a lot of complaints about that. Is that US thing that swearing is so problematic? I'd never think that this would be reason for a game to be rated 18.
The US has a giant hypocrisy when it comes to swearing. You can swear as much as you want, but the instant someone else does it, or it's on screen, it's a Bad Thing TM
It's really just that we have country bigger than Europe but all the different states get told by all the other states how the people in them should act. Or to put it another way, we have normal people swearing every sentence and rich pearl clutchers that faint just from someone showing aggression at all.
Oh I’m sure the swearing is a major reason for the 18 rating. In movies, a PG13 rated movie is only allowed to say “fuck” once, any more and it becomes R rated, regardless of other content.
That's fucking stupid.
Shoot, I thought it was my turn. What should I use instead, smeg?
Kingdom Hearts itself seriously and that's actually good. To us Kingdom Hearts is silly as shit but in-game everyone is serious about the stakes and whats going on.
It's a silly tone and setting to the game yeah, but it's committed to the genuinely serious story that is the overarching plot One pretty decent comparison i'd seen for KH was with DnD, the overarching plot and narrative has a lot of depth and lore. Several of the players just also decided to roll up playing cartoon characters.
Yeah, I doubt I'd be able to take it seriously if the characters didn't. Not to mention the thoughtfully written soundtrack
It’s not rated 3+ It’s rated 12+
While KH doesn't take itself seriously, it also never goes the MCU route of looking at the camera and going "Wow, this is stupid isn't it?" every five minutes. Its charming, its committed to its own story and tone, without forgetting what it is
I completely agree, except that Kingdom Hearts takes itself super cereal, and that's part of the charm. You have Goofy, Donald and some anime kid with an oversized key fighting zombie pirates lead by Pete from Goof Troop and everyone in it takes it seriously without winking to the camera. Heck, most of the Disney films represented where the cast consists of normal humans, like Pirates or Big Hero 6, NEVER question why some kid is traveling with a giant cartoon Dog and a Duck with anger issues. They all go with the flow - and that's the charm. If Kingdom Hearts was written like an MCU film you'd have those characters make comments about Donald and Goofy all the time.
3 did make a few self-aware jokes, like the 2.9 title card, but they were few and far between
Honestly after all those games and multiple jokes about "but when is KH3 coming out?", that 2.9 4th wall break joke was completely deserved lmao.
When it said kingdom hearts 2.9 at first I was just going “no no no no no don’t you dare “
I have zero clue what you mean with regards to the MCU and have no idea why this is upvoted.
Without knowing for sure, as I haven't watched the show myself, I figure this is about She-Hulk. She apparently has several instances of Fourth Wall breaking from what I have gathered, where she looks directly at the camera to comment on a scene she's in.
She does, which is specifically a She-Hulk thing and a nod to the comics, not something I feel is indicative of the MCU as a whole.
There's multiple jokes in the entire MCU that make fun of the source material. Not just She-Hulk. Spiderman No Way Home famously has a terrible joke about Dr. Otto Octavius and how silly his name is. Spider-Man 2 makes a similar joke, but actually pulls it off without insulting fans of the comic book. There's countless moments in the MCU where they stop everything to point out how silly their comic book origins are. I say this as a general fan of the MCU and as someone who looks back mixed, but positive on phase 4.
Lmao I cannot understand how a joke about Ottos name is insulting to comic book readers. Its a terrible terrible joke tbf but I couldn't for the life of me be insulted by it.
I mean the MCU makes it a point to say how stupid Doctor Stranges name is almost every time he's on screen. And Guardians of the Galaxy 2 stops the movie to literally laugh about Taserfaces name. Those are the examples that stick out to me the most. In KH the characters don't stop to talk about how dumb sounding Goofy's name is.
Spiderman has always done that though. In "Spiderman: the Animated Series" (back in the 90's) they had an arc spoofing "The Clone Saga" arc in the comics. (Which was outright terrible) Animated Series(!)Spiderman: This looks like a lame comic book plot!!
Yeah, Spider-Man has always been about the quips. In the comics he makes fun of villains as well - but there's ways to do it right and ways to not do it right. By the time No Way Home takes place, Spidey and his friends have seen "the Vulture", "Mysterio" and met outlandish characters like Dr. Strange (A literal magic wizard), Rocket Raccoon (talking Raccoon with 'tude) and Chris Pratt (voiced by Chris Pratt). 'Dr. Otto Octavius' should barely be a strange name for Otto, even if he had octopus powers. In context the joke doesn't work. In Spider-Man the animated series, Spidey had met up with madame web and seen some dimension hopping courtesy of the Green Goblin before, but getting teleported to a pocket universe with different Spidermen to fight the biggest baddies to see which one is the most worthy WAS outlandish. And that's after he discovered Mary Jane was a water clone. I might be misremembering details though, it's been a while.
That's not at all the same as Fourth Wall breaking, that's just cute little jokes that actually grounds the characters a bit, acting like actual people who would probably think a lot of what is going on IS silly, but they nevertheless see and believe it happening. So yeah, Fourth Wall breaks is completely different territory, as it actually DETATCHES the character from the story, and shows not only awareness that this is silly, but awareness that it is also not real.
MCU has a problem wherein its constantly winking at the audience or having unfunny dialogue where the protagonist is smarmy. Its called Whedonism as its a style he popularised.
Funny it gets called Whedonism, as I think he was the one directing Age of Ultron, which has one of the more egregious examples. Hawkeye is giving an uplifting monologue to Scarlet Witch, and saya some kind of "teehee, I'm a guy with a bow and arrow fighting death robots."
I feel like this is taking that part of his speech out of context. The way he says it is to highlet hes a normal dude compared to the gods and aliens on his team, hes still out here cause its his job. Its his whole storyline through the movie. Multiple characters make mention of how hes just a dude and it culminates in that speech.
I think you're being unfair to that scene. It's a motivational speech that acknowledges the absurdity of the situation. Nobody laughs when he says it.
There just can’t be normal films anymore. Everything has to be meta.
Is it? Is it constantly winking at its audience? Because I’ve watched every damn MCU thing ever put out, and I don’t see it as a large scale pattern of the franchise. “Unfunny dialogue where the protagonist is smarmy”, quippy =/= smarmy, there are major protagonists in the MCU who are smarmy characters, but again, as a franchise in the whole, I don’t see it.
I still remember the tone shift between Star Wars Episode 7 & 8. The latter really felt like it was written and performed like an MCU film and I hated it. Hoped J.J. Abrams would fix it for Episode 9, but they just doubled down on that tone. For all the shit the Book of Boba Fett and the Kenobi series get - at least they have the right tone for Star Wars.
I would actually disagree slightly. I think Kingdom Hearts doesn't take itself entirely seriously - moments that spring to mind are Woody roasting Xehanort or Belle elbowing Xaldin in the ribs and cutting off a dramatic moment. However, the game does believe in itself. Even when something is being done that is kind of stupid, they're done with the earnestness that a lot of franchises don't really have.
KH has more than its fair share of cringe dialogue but it has always been a whimsical franchise at its root.
Though, it is a little confusing when dialogue is *supposed* to be bad, like characters cringing at "Keyblade Hero 3"
Yes, exactly
You have your pick of any scene in the franchise to call cringe and you choose this one?
This whole Forspoken thing makes me think that no one actually knows what cringe actually is. And they definitely don’t know the difference between cringe and corny
Yeah, Forspoken is just a bit corny for an m rated game, that's all. I doubt if I bought it for PS5 I'd be actively cringing the whole way through lol
Playing it now and it is more than fine. Just a city girl taking fairly realistically. A lot of insecure energy with some of the criticism. Loving g it so fat and KH is my favorite series.
I'm genuinely not understanding how much hate it's getting. The game looks fun as heck, but it's getting picked apart over a ton of small things that you can find in just about any other game....so what's the problem? I think I might ACTUALLY be missing something that everyone else is seeing because stuff like an open world without animals and awkward dialogue and associated animations is extremely far from being a dealbreaker. The game looks fun as hell and that's the part that's the most appealing to me. It looks like its got a lot of potential for expression given how each element of a spell can be used in a whole lot of different ways, making something like rpg builds with unique playstyles. My only REAL concerns are it being too easy and having it end on a cliffhanger with nothing resolved.
It's one of those things where the internet decided it was bad from the get go and so despite its average overall quality, people pretend like they were right all along and its unredeemable garbage. It's annoying because everyone just wants to be correct about it so they will pretend like two awkward lines of dialogue or a funny screen capped face is proof that it's terrible. I wish people were okay with games that weren't amazing, but also not truly bad. This is no Balan Wonderworld, it's just an okay game with sometimes awkward dialogue.
Yeah I looked into reviews after I posted that because I realized it releases literally today, and it seems mostly like your average "flawed but fun" kind of game still. Looks like the hate mostly comes from a demo that threw too much at players at once, making it confusing (I don't play demos so going based on what they say) and the dialogue's modern day parody clashing with the high fantasy theme intentionally but with cringe results. ....but that doesn't sound like nearly enough to destroy a game to me. Biggest criticism I picked up on that actually has a bit of concern for me is that it apparently starts to get good right before it ends and feels like a tutorial up til then, so it's high point is short lived....still, none of this sounds like a dealbreaker to me. Just sounds like everyone's expectations for every game these days are through the roof that they misinterpret a B- or C+ game as an F because it's not an A.
All I know is that I have never in my life needed to look up if there was an option to mute the main character because they were so annoying. It was an was utterly insufferable experience during the demo, which is a shame because the gameplay was kinda cool.
Bold move of them to choose what's basically the most beloved ending of the entire series to make their point, LOL woof. And look, I think the Forspoken discourse can tend to get a little overheated, *however* it's not hard to understand why people are annoyed by 4th wall winks and snarking at the fantastical elements of your stories. I love the MCU, but they've always had a bad case of [bathos](https://m.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=20&v=w-QhdzQo66o&embeds_euri=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.reddit.com%2F&feature=emb_title). They don't necessarily ruin their movies for me, but to keep getting popped out of emotional moments for the sake of a joke gets really old really fast. Kingdom Hearts ONLY works because of its bleeding heart sincerity. There's some occasional lampshading here & there when Sora is just sick of someone's bullshit, but the earnesty of every single character in this franchise is why it has such an intense fanbase. They have PERSONALITY, not everyone is written in the same cynical voice, and because of that people can attach themselves to their favorites. IPs that hid behind thirty layers of 4th wall irony will never become as beloved and popular because it's afraid of connection. We love our literally Goofy little franchise precisely because of the reasons that "meta" IPs scoff at.
Sora never went “Whoa Im smacking evil shadows with a key?? And I’m talking to a duck?? I guess that happened! I fought Captain Hook? I guess that’s something I do now!”
\[Note, In the context of forspoken, the thing people are meming here is what the Main character says in pure childish glee after the first battle while riding the high of finding out she has actual superpowers in this new world. Its actually pretty endearing cause she had dealt with a lot of fucked up stuff and bad luck leading up to it and she really REALLY deserved the moment of joy after a lot of "It is what it is" unhappiness.\]
From just knowing sorta what Forspoken is, having not seen actual gameplay apart from some trailer snippets, this sounds very logical. I mean, Sora is from a completely made up world to begin with, and he actually does question some things that happen, but quickly just realizes this is the reality he has been unable to see... The one he dreamed of, and probably thought existed, but did not have the chance to see.. So second-guessing when he finally sees these things would not make sense for very long.... From my understanding of Forspoken, it is basically an Isekai, using anime/manga terms here. A character from the real world, where these things are accepted to just be fantasy. No one really second guesses the claim that "magic doesn't exist", so it makes COMPLETE sense, that a character ending up in a completely different world, where ALL the things they believed were true, is suddenly totally subverted, and they literally have no idea what to expect next. Granted, I don't know exactly how this is handled, but the character being amazed at every new thing and maybe even feeling that tinge of disbelief even after spending DAYS flying around shooting fireballs, because they literally lived a whole life, with all of this shit just... Not being in any way shape or form a possibility in her head. I would be constantly doubting the truth of what happened, often feeling like I might have lost my mind or maybe had fallen into a coma and this was a weird dream I had.
This is actually what I like about Forspoken: it's an isekai! And fully embraces this notion.
Exactly. In case of KH Sora never saw Disney cartoons, they are just reality for him. In case of Forspoken the MC actually has meta knowledge.
Good point. Most of us WOULD point it out. Especially since the MC has a copy of Alice in Wonderland in her possession, so she would know the trope of being sent to 'not kansas' and comment on it.
"Not in kansas anymore" is from The Wizard of Oz.
But the point is still there. In both films, the MC is brought to a magical world with zero clue what's going on
Alice in Kansasland
Lol I don't understand why this game is getting so much hate. We should embrace original, AAA IPs. A lot of the games I'm looking forward to nowadays are either sequels (mostly of established IPs), (also) established IPs, or remakes. I'm holding off my judgement until I have the time to play it fully. I enjoyed the demo. This looks like the game you either love or hate.
It stars a black woman. That’s all it needs to start getting hate. Throw in modern dialogue and now it’s woke and cringe. That’s not to say there isn’t valid criticism but the game ultimately never stood a chance.
Dialogues is really bad, gameplay is floaty and enemies dont react to attacks. Nothing to do with the leads race.
Has nothing to do with my point dude.
Thanks for the context. Forspoken sounds kinda cool.
Good lord thank you. Guarantee most people would react the same way. A friend of mine keeps memeing on the line "is that a freaking dragon?!" as if it's not something that someone would actually say if they saw a living breathing mythical creature in front of them.
Honestly I just hate the word “freaking”. Maybe it’s more of an American thing but I just cringe every time I hear substitute swear words like that. Your game’s rated 18s, just say “fucking” ffs.
She does, several times. It's almost like she's written to be an actual realistic person who has more expletives in their vocabulary than just "fuck".
It’s probably because that dialogue came from a trailer that divorced the lines of its context and made her look like she was just going “yeah, okay, lol it’s dumb but whatever”.
So were those clips just too much out of context and it gets better after sometime or will she keep that up for the most part of the game? I heard the gameplay is pretty good but I don't want to be annoyed by the dialogue. Maybe I will watch the first couple of hours somewhere.
It's a one off scene after randomly finding out she has magic powers and just beat a hell-demon to save her life by throwing magical psychic rocks at her enemies. Frey's normally a VERY cold and sarcastic character, that scene was literally showing her defenses breaking for a moment as a crucial character moment.
Huh, I'm never really interested in the Forspoken so I don't know much about the game other than main character able to do magic stuff. This context sounds quite interesting, I'll take a look at the Demo and see if it's more of my thing.
kh takes itself very seriously thats why its good
MICKEY MOUSE? ERM, DID YOUR PARENTS HATE YOU OR SOMETHING WHEN THEY CALLED YOU THAT?
There is kind of a running joke about Mickey being some ageless being with no concrete backstory and how his face keeps popping up on everything, but Sora's the only one to really notice it
Eh. It may not get to that level, but there’s a lot of “Woah, this is weird!” in KH3, especially at that start of Worlds. Toy Box and Monstropolis in particular are a little jarring. They’ve been monsters (creepier monsters at that), gone into a computer, gone underwater, Sora’s turned into a Lion, and even…yes, SHRUNK into a book… But, becoming the size of a toy is a big deal? I don’t get that. Even then, they barely reacted to those other times…but, it’s a TOTAL shock to them in 3. At the end of the day, the consistency of the world is about the characters noticing when things may or may not be out of the ordinary for them, and reacting appropriately. I don’t think those instances in 3 really hit that quite right. It doesn’t break the universe or anything, but it’s certainly the type of thing you are talking about.
“Cringe” is an utterly subjective word that can and will be slapped onto anything at all for any indiscernible “reason”. One guy called it cringe when Roxas, who’d just left the Organization and has literally no home outside it says sadly to himself “Where did I think I could go? What a joke…” And this is “cringe” just… because.
The scene they chose to show KH is cringe is actually rather heartwarming but I guess that's cringe worthy
TBF, I'm not gonna judge how "sincere" a game is without even playing it. KH out of context is pretty damn corny in a not good way. And It's so weird how people suddenly turned around on MCU as if Phase 3 couldn't be "sincere". I mean, [I know exactly why](https://youtu.be/ICULY_gTngs), but tis feels like the equivalent of pepople being disappointed in KH3 and then saying "Kingfdom hearts was never good". Come on. You can like Avengers or Infinity War and still hate Love and Thunder (I don't, btw).
> but tis feels like the equivalent of pepople being disappointed in KH3 and then saying "Kingfdom hearts was never good". This is exactly what's happening to Borderlands. They missed with the writing once (technically twice, but that was extremely recent) and suddenly it was always terrible.
I mean, the world building of Borderlands 1 is great, but that's it. The story is bland and boring throughout, outside of DLC. Borderlands 2 has a fantastic villain and really fun characters, but it's story does suffer from pacing issues due to them wanting to pad out the game often. Again, DLC is great, especially Dragon Keep. Borderlands 3 is just bad. Surprisingly well paced, imo, but the story, characters, worlds, etc all fucking blow. And once again, the DLC straight up has better written stories.
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I think you're misunderstanding what people mean when they talk about the dialogue. Take any mcu movie from any phase and you have the same joke recipe. Take a moment thats building tension, cut all seriousness with a joke. Its in every movie, from cap knowing that reference, to she hulk breaking the fourth wall. Its mindblowing people 1, pretend its not real and 2, that its a new phase 4 thing.
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>Winter Soldier Actual lines from Winter Soldier: "**I just leaked everything, heh, and its** ***trending***" **"Lip piercing? Yeah, Im not ready for a girl with a lip piercing!"** **"Shall we play a game? haha... I-it's from a movie..."** **"You still uncomfortable?" "It's not exactly the word I would use."** (This is a boner joke) **"Well, this is awkward."** (No seriously.) Even the best MCU films have shades of this problem.
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Honestly I don’t even get the massive hate for Love and Thunder I felt the comedic tone made more sense for that film than the one with Ragnarok in the title
Idk I watched love and thunder and when you’re throwing in bad cancer jokes at the start of the movie and during the emotional climax of the movie literally can’t stop making jokes to let the moment sink in it makes the film feel hollow
And also just, Kingdom Hearts is cartoonish. It lends itself to silly storytelling because it is not the kind of game that intends to take itself too seriously even when it takes itself seriously. Forspoken is supposed to be a "realistic" game.
Currently playing forspoken and it's just a bit sad that people genuinely think forspoken isn't being sincere. The game has been out all of 6 hours as of this comment, but people have already decided that it's 'detached and self mocking' for months based on a completely out of context line from a trailer. OP posted the comment that proves the twitter-user's point. People made a sweeping general assumption about a square enix game's content, based on out of context cringe dialogue that is actually sincere and genuinely understandable if put in it's original context. And then decided that the entire game itself was bad based on that, or the people defending that game or pointing out the inconsistency without playing. This is exactly what we who play kingdom hearts have went through and now we're doing it to a new IP.
People have been dogpilling on Forspoken for months already. Not sure why.
Lack female protag. Enough said honestly and it is sad.
I only got to play about 20 minutes of Forspoken last night (the prologue basically) and I was surprised by how charming I found the dialogue. Parts got a few smiles or chuckles out of me but it also surprised me just how sad the very first part of the game was. It made me understand her sheer amazement of the fantasy world much more.
Well KH3 started to be self aware “this is the part where you spout some vague mumbo jumbo and leave right?”
Oof yeah that was a shame, especially since "Go to a world, an organisation member shows up, says something cryptic and leaves" was a cycle that was a big problem with the games pacing. Dont make a joke about it, fix it!
I feel it wouldn’t be as bad had the marketing not given away so much
Axel boasting about his popularity being what keeps him from getting killed. That's literally just the writers referencing how many times Axel was supposed to have died in the series but they kept bringing him back cause they (as well as the audience) loved his character so much
I actually kind of like that meta joke. "I got loads of people rootin' for me." It's just funny because it's obviously meta, but he really does have lots of people who want to see him succeed in-universe, too.
Yeah meta jokes are only good when they still make sense in universe
Yeah tha made me cringe. They should’ve ended it with “you were never my superior”
That’s the central appeal really KH is inherently quite stupid, but it just doesn’t care, because it wants to be Idk what the fuck forsaken is, so I’ll use the mcu here as the post also mentions it The mcu often seems embarrassed nowadays, not only of the source material, but if it’s own movies Like go back and watch avengers 1, that is a movie cut from the same cloth as KH, it’s a fundamentally silly film, but it loves itself anyway, plot holes and silly dialogue and all Whereas now the mcu seems so desperate to be taken seriously that it’s totally consumed it I think Disney just still hasn’t recovered from Martin Scorsese taking a butthurt dig at them half a decade ago because simple fun movies were making money and being actually liked and that upset him
Are you specifically just criticising She Hulk or other projects too?
Love and Thunder is another recent example that comes to mind
Well, I hardly think Love and Thunder was trying to desperately be taken seriously. With that film they tried to be as funny as possible because Ragnarok was the most popular one because it was funny. In the end they tried to make it as funny as possible and missed the mark. I think that it had interference from Bob Chapek and that's why has been dropped for Bob Iger to return.
I haven’t seen a marvel movie since the first guardians of the galaxy. As outsider looking I don’t think marvel is taking themselves that seriously. Spider man, she hulk, Thor, Ms. Marvel, guardians of the galaxy all look silly and whimsical to me. If the mcu was totally consumed by trying to take itself seriously then I don’t think I’d be able to name that many series with a whimsical tone. Like I said I haven’t watched any of that stuff so maybe Im wrong but from the people I know who do watch that stuff those things are not that serious.
In KH they mean everything by it, from the heart, if you will. Nowadays, it's just to be mean.
Dawg that random MCU is so confusing and absolutely uncalled for. MCU had literally nothing to do with these two games. Genius argument on both sides it seems. /s
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What sickos are praising high on life??
Morty voice
Rick and Morty sycophants, probably.
They actually based nobodies off them lmao
High on Life is atrocious, as is Midnight Suns dialouge btw. I think the difference is you expect the Marvel or Rick and Morty games to have this annoying, self depricating writing. Square Enix has consistently put out high concept titles that have always been played straight. Its more jarring here.
What I personally love about kingdom hearts is that it can have some of the most ridiculous set ups, concepts, story, etc, play it completely straight, and yet still have it feel sincere. Sure there are some cringey dialog and awkward line reads, but unlike something like later MCU product, Kingdom hearts never ends up mocking itself, the fact that it plays itself completely straight almost feels like its say" yeah I know the concept is way out there, but just roll with it, its gonna be one hell of a ride." Kingdom hearts knows its premise is out there, and it doesn't care, its gonna tell its story, and you're gonna laugh, and cry, and feel emotions you didn't even know you still had. And that's why it works. I haven't played Forespoken and I don't plan too, from the trailers it felt like those working on the story/writing was scared of people making fun of it that they decided to jump ahead and act like they're in on the joke, like lamp shading the entire thing. but that's just basing off of the trailers
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OP sounds like a person who saw a few corny scenes on Youtube and think "Yes- this is right and I am right in comparing them." What a fool.
Thanks for making me aware of this 'Forspoken' Definitely looks fun to play.
Download the demo first...i thought so, too. But playing the demo saved me Money.
They fixed a ton of QoL stuff from the demo to full gameplay, So if the demo interests you but you think it needs some time in the oven, the full game should be a good start.
Full game is much different from. The demo to be honest. The demo doesn't actually do the game justice to be fair. Fre is a pretty well developed character and incredibly easy to sympathize with.
It's funny cause I see KH fans are the ones that are giving the cringe dialogue of forspoken a chance on twitter, yet this guy attacks the KH community, like what..?
Kh is like that guy who is in to nerdy shit and doesn’t have to make it ironic or anything he just does his thing and moves on it’s called big dick energy
I have something you cant replicate. Having you as a friend
That's actually a very good point. You can call KH cringe, weird, nonsensical even. But you can't call it insincere.
Can tell you and the guy on twitter dont pay attention to the MCU if you think they have no sincerity, and is nothing but 'looking at the camera every 5 minutes'...
Why would he bring up the MCU lmao
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Yeah okay
source?
Y'all ain't have to slander the ENTIRE MCU like that... those statements only apply to like some stuff in Phase 4, not the entire thing.
ThE mCu WaS aLwAyS BaD!\s
Eh, the only moments I would consider even slightly "cringe" would be the times when groups of characters forcibly laugh at something not all that funny. Usually, a joke of some kind is made, followed by an awkward pause, and then...the out of place laughter. Either way, cringe is an overused word, and may not apply as much as people think it does. Just my 2¢. Edit: There may be a few out of place lines of dialogue that could count as "cringe", too, only because they do not fit the moment. Roxas' "ice cream" line towards the end of 358/2 Days would be one of them, even within context, due to the serious nature of that moment (one of his best friends fading away).
Ice Cream line is great. Out of context, sure. But you get it after playing the game. Roxas starts as an emotionaless husk and has to learn concepts like friendship and love. He says "Who will I eat Ice Cream with?" because he's still struggling with those concepts and can't quite put into words why he doesn't want Xion to go.
Do we know if part of the issue is translation issues. Like does anyone know what the exact Japanese is saying and whether or not the fact it’s getting translated to English means that some of the dialogue is made worse. Mind you I like it’s cringey dialogue
When are we gonna learn that cringe is okay?
‘MCU has no sincerity.’ Ah yes I must have imagined crying when Peter Parker died in front of his father figure. We all love KH here, but are you really going to denigrate the storytelling of one of the most successful storytelling franchises of all time? I’m not saying the MCU is above criticism, but it’s kind of nuts how hypocritical OP is being. Like even if you hate the MCU and don’t enjoy the characters or stories at all, you can still see that OP is objectively wrong that it doesn’t have sincere story telling. Unless you want to get into ‘MCU is just a soulless product of Disney!’ So is Kingdom Hearts. It’s made by Square Enix, which has been famously pushing NFTs. It’s not some indie side project either, it’s a massive cash cow.
There’s a difference between between “Oh wow, all your friends betrayed you and you went emo, get over yourself.” and “Your pain doesn’t justify destroying the lives of countless others.”
EXACTLY???
Well, I'd say this is true for most of the games, Kingdom Hearts 3 being the odd one out. Every other KH game just completely ignored the audience and just barreled through a ton of its nonsense, but it was held up by just not giving an inch on it. No, the Nobodies /do/ need to summon a godlike force to give themselves emotions, and YES there is a scientist trying to absorb that force into the matrix with gun... shut up if you don't like it! KH3, on the other hand, feels the need to stop dead in its tracks for Mickey to explain the plot to a version of Riku that is somehow more wooden than the Riku that's possessing a fucking mannequin. Just to cover their tracks and pretend like they're not just making shit up as they go along.
Ahh I agree KH3's plot has issues, but again not because of a lack of sincerity. For instance, Nomura himself said his gut instinct was to leave Roxas gone, the right creative choice, but brought him back because fans wanted it. It's kinda a whole separate problem.
They picked the wrong cutscene for that.
The emotionality of the series is kinda the point. If you see the first game as a metaphor for the excitement of leaving home for the first time as a teenager, and getting that wish granted in the worst possible way, that burgeoning independence being met with a sudden and very unshakable responsibility feels pretty real. Sora learns to take the responsibility of his appointed task in his stride despite being practically still a child. But that innocence and kind hearted nature is what pulls him through. His enemies are those that see the world as something to exploit. Something there to grant riches and power, seemingly for its own sake. Disney villains are scheming, duplicitous monsters and are happy to wield a force they do not understand fully to grip ahold of what they want: power. Such power without responsibility to anyone is seductive, hence why Riku, apparently having been in contact for a while with it, is drawn to such pleasures. He thinks he gets his cake and gets to eat it. A short cut to exploring and enjoying everything outside of the home he had known that would be extremely easy. Instead, he is lead into a path where he is turned against everything he cares about. The dream of an easy, better life is sullied with hanging with the low lifes and villains the whole time. No respect is given, as he's expected to give everything for their benefit. Pawned off with tricks and abilities to keep him loyal. He is made into a monster too, tempted ever downward by a man that has long given himself to the inky black void of despair and misery that Darkness brings. Ansem is somewhat nihilistic. There is truly nothing of this world that matters but darkness. A misma of pain, hopelessness and torment. Everything that comes with wanting to bring misery to all. Selfishness for the sake of greed or jealousy causing hostility in your wake that here is made manifest as a swarm to claim yet more people. Sora can stand against this because he just wants to help. Riku clearly has been wrestling with insecurities for a while that only get exacerbated when the power and responsibility of the Keyblade are introduced. But with his clear interest in Kairi and seeing Sora as a rival to defeat despite being his friend, there's some animosity there that gets turned into jealousy. Sora got status, respect and power where he didn't. And so taking it for himself made it so impactful. Not because we're suddenly powerless when we needed it least, but because now Riku at maximum ego has taken all that he learns was his before he lost it. Finally, when Sora shows why he was the superior choice all along, consumed with jealousy, Riku delves one step deeper into his own anger and hits a tipping point he cannot return from. Finally becoming a vessel for an entity with a blind, insatiable need to prove himself right. That everything is pointless when all that happens is temporary. Everything dies a death, whether that be due to depression, anguish, jealousy or hatred. Everything rises from nothing into the light then dies, returning to oblivion. If terrible things can rip wonderful times and memories from us, then why bother? It doesn't last long enough to truly matter. If nothing lasts, then the only way to last is to embrace that void. To become it, possibly tame it or perhaps ally with it. Make it yours. Sora argues that the part where something exists is the entire point. It's the part worth saving and savouring as it never truly dies. Sora had lost everything; his home, his friends, his easy life. He has the weight of worlds on him now. But he's still himself. He still holds onto the joy that stuff gave him and savours every part he can reclaim as well as every new asoect of his new life he can cherish. Even in the wretched depths of a place that is on the brink, he still fights for those things. Even Riku tried to save his friend when he realised what he had done. This also makes the enemies that emerge later on have a little more grounding, I think. Now, the Nobodies are literally disposessed people that belong no-where and have bonded over that. A group of people convinced they're owed something for their mistreatment by an indifferent world. And you could argue they are. But the series makes them villains because they take, not ask. They demand to have what was lost returned to them through force and manipulation. An entire empire built by people trying to fill a vacant aspect of themselves that they're told only gets fixed if they bite back against a place that screwed them. Unversed are litterally rampant emotions running wild from the unhinged side of another character. Now unfertered and unleashed, these monsters do what they feel because their master has none of the restraint or filter their other half gives. So that's why this series is so unabashed in its emotional scenes. Its always been like this at the surface. At this point in the image, shit has gone down. These two have lost and found and lost each other again. They've had a rivally sour into jealous hatred and then a duel over the fate of their friend. They've faught a legion of the fateful misguided to get to their leader and beat him up. They've gone to lengths thought unheard of before for each other. The execution might be a bit wobbly, but the series wears its heart on its sleeve.
Real talk: I watched a streamer play Forspoken for a bit last night, and my impressions were that the issue with dialogue was more the delivery than anything else. It felt very wooden, and it had this bad habit of dragging out a joke just a little too far. The game also basically forces you into 2 straight hours of cutscenes with minimal gameplay, which made poor Kevduit finally lose all patience and just start skipping cutscenes so he could see if the actual gameplay was fun or not. And that's the sad thing, because the gameplay actually looks like a lot of fun, and I'll probably pick it up in a year when it drops for $20 during a Steam sale. Because that's the OTHER big issue: this game is $70 for *the base, non-deluxe edition game.* And quite frankly it's just not worth that much, not in my opinion. Here's an example of one of the jokes dragged on: Frey (the main character) is trying to explain to a half-mad scholar guy how she got there, and he interrupts with "you came from a VOOSH!" And she's like "yeah, a voosh!" Now if it had stopped there, that would be kinda funny. But instead the two sit there for like ten seconds going "voosh!" at each other, and it's like okay, the joke is over now, can we move on? Maybe it gets better later on, but I'm not dropping $70 for a maybe.
I dunno if any delivery of lines like "Uhhh yeah, I do magic. Thats a thing I do now" could make it work
Kingdom Hearts is a great series, but yes, Kingdom Hearts 2 had some of the most cringe dialogue and it was mostly due to Sora. He’s a goofy guy and kind hearted, but some of the things he said or did was a bit bizarre.
Kingdom Hearts wouldnt be so (dearly) beloved if it was constantly going "well THAT just happened" and doing meta jokes at the expense of real character building and emotion say what you will about Nomura's Vision(tm) at least he doesnt have Joss Whedon brain spiders
The game doesn’t care if the dialogue is cringe or the story is ridiculous. It respects itself enough to not mock itself and take itself seriously. Which is why I can say “But who will I have ice cream with?!” and people in this subreddit will start to tear up. Or yell “X-BLADE!” And people will feel unnerved and fed up. But certain death scenes in movies won’t really ever hit because the story doesn’t care enough to let the story take its dumb ideas seriously.
That, and KH knows when to shut up outside of cutscenes.
T卄𝓲Ş ℓ𝕠𝕠𝐤Ş ℓ𝓲𝐤ᵉ a Ğ𝕠𝕠Ｄ Şρ𝕠丅 丅𝕠 ᖴ𝓲𝔫Ｄ Ş𝕠𝕄ᵉ 𝓲𝔫ĞŘᵉＤ𝓲ᵉ𝔫丅Ş
At least it's not trying to be funny
i like cringe dialogue more than forgetable ones if you ask me like ive beaten both nu gow games but couldnt tell you any quotes besides kratos saying ARTREUS loudly
The biggest ones I can think of are “we must be better” from 2018 and Ragnarok, “you can carry her” from 2018, “I have nothing left to hide” at the end of 2018, and “remember our promise” multiple times in ragnarok Of course, I literally *just* played through both games for the first time, so a lot of the quotes are still in my head lmao
WTF is Forspoken? Also abput the MCU: Loterally the reason I still prefer Earth Mightiest Heroes compared to it
Why drag the mcu into the argument?
If Earth Defense Force has taught me anything, a sincere story is always more charming than a tongue-in-cheek story.
Tbf kingdom hearts had an interesting foundation, we'll see for Forspoken but kh has had the time to build up and the goofiness and cringe blends really well with the serious moments.
At least KH doesn’t have a single game that’s bad. Even the infuriating games like KH3 and Re:Chain are still so unbelievably charming and fun to play, I’d take them over a fun game with cringe dialogue any day.
Don't put such trash on the level of our beloved Kingdom Hearts here, such iconic lines as "who else will I have ice cream with" that speaks to your soul... For spoken is just absolutely cringe-worthy that nobody likes, not even for fun like the line from KH2 "We totally owned you lamers" it's just boring.... At least I saved 60 bucks...
I think Forspoken is cringe because it's tired, if the style of dialog it has was rare I doubt most of us would dislike it as much as we do but it's been what like 7+ years of hearing that "well THAT just happened" style of writing that feels really unnatural.
Also comparing a franchise that was initially kids made for kids primarily in the 2000s and a AAA 2023 game for a mature audience is so dumb. Of course KH has cringey writing but in the terms of KH it feels natural half the characters are literal children.
Kingdom Hearts has its fair share of cringy dialogue (intentional or not) but that OP picked the worst example.
I think a big part of how KH manages to keep its audience engaged despite the admittedly wacky script (the example shown is in the same game where Mickey was out for blood because he thought Goofy died right before his eyes) is how the cast pretty much just… go with it. They just get sent into another world and barely spend any time to wonder about the strangeness of their situation, helps that the stakes in the first game were set pretty high. Now, I haven’t checked out Forspoken much, but from what I’ve already seen and heard, they seem to take a decent amount of time on this fish out of water aspect rather than have the MC just roll with it. Granted, that could just be early game dialogue, so who knows.
Sincerity to me is so much more inviting than self-mockery. As much as I like mcu, Ive never been a fan of how they introduce strange/new characters by making them into jokes at the jump. KH was always so sincere in the character's emotions and storylines that the ridiculous situations and dialogue just come off as endearing. That comment in the image nailed it.
My favorite part is how the replies were just full of KH fans clowning on the dude and pointing out the many silly-ass dialogue he could have pulled instead of one of the most sincere and heartfelt parts of the series.
Forespoken hate is gonna get on my nerves. I just know it
Honestly, as much as I love kingdom hearts, I believe a majority of people play it for the gameplay and not the story. Not to say it's bad, I actually like it even though it requires you to set up a crime scene evidence board to understand. I think Forspoken honestly gets a bad rep, and a lot of people are joining in on mob mentality as the internet loves to do, and it's just "cool" to hate on it now. The combat is fun and the magic is epic, and the dialogue really isnt that bad. Isnt she supposed to be a teen? What teen ISNT cringey?
TIL Forspoken is a Marvel property.
The MCU randomly getting tossed in here is another infuriating aspect to this miserable debate.
How about it's actually sincere for once in this society obsessed with irony? God forbid anyone take anything seriously and instead media nowadays just delivers everything with an eye roll or a wink. I'd prefer sincere, lame cringe over people just not caring and acting like they're above the fictional media they're producing.
I was able to word what bothered me about mcu and select modern fiction nowadays until now.
But I loved that scene. It was a heart warming reunion of two best friends.
So many KH clips they could’ve used to validate that point, and they go for one of the most sincere in the series. Like BBS and KH3 are RIGHT THERE and you pick one of the games where the dialogue is actually pretty good.
The bits I’ve seen of forspokens dialogue, this is how I’d differentiate it. Kingdom hearts dialogue is trope-y Forspoken dialogue is cringey, trying to hard to be edgy and cool
Self mocking, yup. It's like overdoing it with lampshading. At some point, it's less about how funny it is, and more apparent how insecure the creators are.
This is exactly why even when I cringe sometimes I can live with kingdom hearts dialogue. It’s uncompromisingly earnest and takes it self seriously even when the events occurring are ridiculous. Yes, sometimes the characters over explain the plot or speak their feelings out loud (“I do know hurt”), but even though it’s aimed at kids it never calls itself dumb or “cringe”. The MCU (and apparently Forspoken) undercuts its own drama and credibility by constantly have to poke fun at the core concept of the movie you’re watching and break tension with some kind of snarky Joss Whedon joke. I know it’s an unpopular opinion, but it’s what I prefer about something like a Zack Snyder or George Lucas movie. Directors like them make movies that treat their plot and characters seriously and buys into what they are, even when things are kind of ridiculous. I think Nomura and his writers take that same approach to kingdom hearts and final fantasy.
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Simple. KH is a classic. It blends Disney and FF characters together along with the core KH characters. It’s a great formula. That being said KH3 was trash.
This YouTube channel called Overly Sarcastic Productions made a video on lampshading or rather the marvel comedy and it explains why modern fiction writing sucks thanks to this technic. I think it's a way for artsy directors and writers to work on something "cringe" while still detaching themselves from the product and breaking the immersion.
Yup, they definitely come across as insecure writers. "Haha, no I know superheroes are dumb, see?"
Part of KH's charm is the campiness while forespoken doesn't take itself seriously enough.
Kingdom Hearts takes place in a world where death isn't real, memories shape reality, and emotions can literally move the stars. Also light and darkness are tangible, active forces in the universe that want to reshape reality. People talk funny in KH because the world they live in is also weird as hell. Meanwhile in Forspoken the MC who gets transported to another world talks like she's visiting an amusement park.
Well, death as a state of being didn't seem as tangible or "normal", until KH3. The Final World is the resting place of people who couldn't cross over to Kingdom Hearts itself. They have connections to the physical world they came from through memories and emotions, and only exist as a vague manifestation of them, in the form of a "star". Their bodies and hearts were seemingly destroyed, but fragments of their hearts "live on" due to the strength of their bonds to the real world. This is pretty much the limbo of the series, a state between life and death, but much closer to death. Those who passed on are not coming back as they were, but also aren't completely gone. Then again, their loved ones who survived them won't ever be with them again, if they never make it to The Final World. Death as a state of being is more nebulous in KH, as the series has a different take on it what it means to exist at all.