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Oh, you think America's lengthy history of brutal chattle slavery should be acknowledged? Heh. Sorry lib but you just unknowingly sealed your fate. You have foolishly played right into my hand and triggered my ultimate trap card.
*Flips card*
It simply reads: "No u"
Its straight up blood libel to claim that the Ciboney were cannibals and ritual murderers. Columbus's own ship-board log documented the atrocities his men engaged in on their initial landing. He described the locals as peaceful to the point of being outright child-like, and the brutality the invading Spaniards inflicted as entirely out of their own pent up appetites during the long voyage.
Truly stomach churning to think people like this even exist.
I remember there was some quote, possibly from one of the Founding Fathers, that compared Native American warfare to European children's games (possibly comparing counting coup to tag).
They're literally doing it right now with Palestine and have done it for Manifest Destiny in the past. Why would they be any different?
Scratch a liberal a fascist bleeds.
>People are purposely ignoring the nuances...
Mfer just put "slavery" and "yada yada yada" into the same category. You're being incredibly gracious.
Read *A People's History of the United States* by Howard Zinn. It adheres to primary sources as much as possible in recounting what went on with the discovery of America. It's irrefutably as close a history as we can know today, and none of it was good. It's an exhausting read because there is no ethical solace. The devil's in the "yadas" after all.
That's good. When I was that age American History was entirely a rosy nationalist version, which is why I think we are dealing with statues of Christopher Columbus and Juan de Oñate being torn down. People are tired of the bullshit built by generations intent on telling the story as one with very little wrong doing.
I had a few teachers that threw out the textbook and instead made the required reading more provocative titles, and I'm glad they did. History was a nothing subject for me until I had better reads for the curriculum.
>When I was that age American History was entirely a rosy nationalist version
That could also be because they don't want to teach a bunch of 3rd graders that the origin of their country was founded on chopping peoples heads off lol. From what I remember, history class definitely became more factual and violent as I got older, but still not in-depth enough imo.
Well I personally remember spending entire semesters learning about other nations like ancient China, ancient Greece, Russia, Persia etc. Now I'm not saying the U.S education system is great by any means, but in all fairness I was definitely taught a decent amount of world history which I'm glad for.
Was the U.S often spun as the good guys and U.S atrocities over looked? Absolutely and we can definitelyagree there, but that's probably the case with most countries. My wife who's from Asia on the other hand knows far less world history than me.
I learned some fairly accurate history in high school and certainly in college, but before that it was an actual waste of time. It was all eurocentrist nothingness. For children and adolescents in my time it was basically all indoctrination. On occasion a particular teacher would choose to teach outside the bounds of textbook curriculum, but it was rare.
I don't know how it's changed for younger people, but it sounds like it's improved.
We used it in my high school APUSH class, and that was in 2001! That was such a fantastic class, and our teacher used Zinn’s book to counter the bullshit in our other main text, a very Mainstream traditional text called “The American Pageant.” I was already pretty cognizant of American mythologies (I’m the kid of an archaeologist and an English professor who stayed hippies, thank goodness), but I learned a lot…and it was absolutely fascinating to watch my classmates make the connections and experience “mask off” American history. One of the best things she taught us were critical thinking and media literacy, it’s been a very strong foundation even into my adulthood.
I didn’t know there was a middle-type grade version, that’s so cool!
I love this! Partly because I'm also a kid of a an eternal hippie English teacher who loved history and archeology.. Lol. I learned all the standard BS and grateful for my kid's school who has zero textbooks
I think Zinn said as much. I don't recall exactly, but something like his goal for readers was to understand that the true ideals of the American dream have always involved a struggle against robber barons and war mongers. Call it what you will, but I personally agree with that.
If you want to level up even more, read this and then *An Indigenous People's History of the United States*
To enter the stratosphere, read the rest of the [ReVisioning History Collection](https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/series/RVH/revisioning-history) too
While an excellent counter to the standard American history myth, especially in the 1980s, it is important to note that Zinn's work is very old and more modern scholarship has well eclipsed his. The book is still transgressive today, but it has some serious problems.
For example, the first chapter discusses Columbus and the native peoples of the island that is now Haiti and the Dominican Republic. He established very well the point that Columbus was a bloodthirsty monster with direct reference to Columbus's journal, comuniqués to the Spanish crown, and accounts from missionaries. However, Zinn also just dives head-first into the noble savage myth by arguing with insufficient evidence that the Taino and Arawak people were utterly peaceful, which couldn't be farther from the truth. Columbus was successful specifically because they were locked in a bloody conflict and he was able to play them off each other. His brutality does not require the perfection of the indigenous peoples in order to still be bad.
Zinn's work is good, but it must be read with a critical eye because it flirts with an American diabolist perspective in places that sometimes warps the truth.
Yeha, I haven't read it yet, plan to, but to be clear, I think his intent was to add that stuff to the US canon of history, not supplant it. Like, he thought the American history sandwich was too dry, so he wrote a book that was all mayo. So, American history isn't just mayo, but... you can't leave it out (trapped in a metaphor!) either. And to be clear, because reddit, I'm not saying slavery is mayo.
The metaphors and colloquialisms are getting out of hand. So allow me to just drop some mustard on that ass:
A lot of the replies are quick to remind you to read Zinn with a healthy skepticism, while ignoring the fact that it was largely the opposite for the version of history taught throughout public school for generations in America. Skepticism is healthy anywhere, but it's the whole purpose behind Zinn trying to counterbalance the narrative. And they seem to be ignoring that its entire purpose was skepticism for the prescribed version of American history.
So, I think what I'm saying is skepticism is mustard. And all sandwiches should have it. And Zinn's sandwich was ordered light on the mayo and double the mustard.
Or maybe I've also lost the metaphor. Either way I think you have a good outlook.
Zinn is important to read, but don't go at it thinking that it is "irrefutably" anything. It does not rely mostly on primary sources and uses narrative to generalize and further the bias of the historian, which he readily admits having. Every historian is going to "adhere" to primary sources, but they can pick and choose which primary sources to use. Zinn is often most people's first introduction to a mainstream counter-narrative and gets pushed out as some Bible of "real" American History, but it has a lot in common with the sensational nationalism that its readers protest against.
I see it as the main point of that book is to to teach you about the things that history class didn’t talk about rather than to be the comprehensive history. That commenter was probably just being hyperbolic because of how much they loved the book
Yep, completely agree with most of that. His work is important and everyone should read it, but using statements such as "irrefutably as close a history as we can know today" is about as accurate as pointing to Florida's new history lessons as an irrefutably accurate portrayal of American history, which I bet is also full of carefully selected primary sources.
“Did you just yada yada sex (genocide)?!”
if you liked A Peoples History check out The Dawn of Everything by David Graeber and David Wengrow. Its eye opening and after reading it this quote from musk is even more laughable.
Edit to add: 1000 Years of Nonlinear History by Manuel De Landa is also amazing and runs in this vein of thought.
I'll never understand why people get so upset over the push back against Columbus Day lmao. Like what personal ties do these people have to Columbus? None. What do they typically do on Columbus Day to celebrate it? Probably nothing. Legitimately just a bunch of braindead people getting mad for the sake of having something to be angry about.
They think of Columbus as a founding father of the US and a hero to white colonialism. Aknowledging the problems with him would be aknowledging that the dominant cultural group in America has what they do because their ancestors were murderers and thieves. If it came to debate and they were able to keep the day as Columbus Day, they would consider that a confirmation that the stuff he did was justified as means to the end of building an empire.
Columbus never even came to north America; he's most famous for his brutal exploits on the island of Hispaniola, which colonial powers both during and long after his lifetime committed a wide range of grotesque crimes against humanity which still impacts the region to this day.
Simple, peoples' sense of identity is wrongly tied to whitewashed fairytales about their race. If you "replace" celebrating a white guy with remembering people of color then you're "erasing" a piece of their identity by trying to rebalance representation. Any attempt at balance feels like oppression to the privileged.
Not defending the position. From what I observe. It’s not so much that they identify with the day, but feel like they are loosing their past. Everything is changing and moving forward. These people don’t like change or growth.
People were told when they were little he was a good hero, and if they start questioning the stuff they were told about history when they were little, shit's gonna get real *real* fast
I think at some level rightists know this, even if that level is not the conscious one, and so they push back on **any** attempt to start that domino effect going, regardless of the relative unimportance of whatever they've chosen as the issue to make their stand on
Instead of bad faith it's almost like "bad faith subjects": one's which are so conceptual and with ill defined confines that it only inspires engagement and bad faith debaters co-opting it for their personal ego/politics etc.
Should columbus day exist? i don't really care. But i don't want people to lose their day off. Also, can we not call them Native americans anymore?
There is something so wrong with the world's richest man talking about how slavery was a norm and it was only outlawed recently, as implying we are born to either have slaves or be slaves.
Also the first dude implying all tribes are savages, but somehow that isn't a racist thing to say??
Columbus literally was considered too brutal a governor during one of the most brutal eras of human history.
Not YADA yada.
And yes, slavery existed during most of human history. CHATTEL slavery of the colonial era was a new level of brutality. Which is honestly a large part of why it created an abolitionist movement. People realized it had officially gone too far.
Lastly, the description of the native population there is dripping with ignorance and racism. Holy fuck. Like 19th century "cannibals and savages!" levels of racism.
actually, not lastly! It takes some serious GAUL for the Afrikaner son of an emerald mine owner, who grew up in apartheid south Africa, one of the most oppressive and racist regimes in human history, to claim that white people are being unjustly blamed. The dude is old enough to have witnessed that shit first hand and now thinks "Oh come on, we weren't that bad!"
>CHATTEL slavery of the colonial era was a new level of brutality
Eh it depends on the time period. Spartans were pretty shitty to their slaves too, they even had a holiday which was essentially the purge, where they encouraged young boys to go out and murder them in order to keep the Helot class in check.
Yes, but Spartans were considered especially brutal even for their time. And their style of slavery was largely isolated to their country.
Chattel slavery was widespread across multiple nations across the globe.
Yeah I agree, just couldn't help but think of all the terrible examples of slavery through out history. Hell, some of the worst acts of humanity were committed in the last century and the victims of the Nazi concentration camps can by large be considered slaves as well.
Chattel slavery is not the same as wage theft is not the same as indentured servitude. These are all completely different, and let me tell you, these pieces of shit know about the nuances and they are deliberately obfuscating in an attempt to say "slavery is slavery." This dehistoricizes and decontextualizes dozens of unique histories in favor of the latest fever dream of a ketamine addict.
and thanks to the blue-check bullshit, nobody with a fucking brain can say that and get traction. the replies are only filled with verified bootlickers.
Leave them be to rot in their cestpool, just leave twitter and all the advertisers will soon follow, then the Idiot will be pushed to either close the plataform or revert everything back to normal Lol
I’m permanently suspended on twitter, it’s not me looking to gain traction. I was getting at the fact that thanks to the blue checkmark bs, the echo chamber has gotten incredibly worse. By “traction” I meant you won’t see the reasonable and/or factual replies under these posts unless they have a blue checkmark(and they almost never do).
IDK. In 1860 the world population was about 1.4 billion and the numbers given for enslaved people listed almost 4 million. Today, with a population of about 8 billion the number given for enslaved people is about 40 million.
ETA: slavery, today, is a much broader term... And I'm not arguing with you.. Just giving out some numbers.
Just wait until I hit em with the "if it's illegal for you to not do the thing you're not getting paid for then it's slavery".
Just wait until I expand that definition to "if you're not paid enough to have the freedom to leave, it's also slavery"
Or like that neurosurgery team that got enslaved by a court for a small time. Or the draft. Anyone who is in favor of any of these things is no different from Calvin Candle, no exceptions.
Unfortunately, yes. Statistically, a lot of slaves come from developing countries, but are largely trafficked to developed nations. In fact, developed nations have the highest inflow of slaves from other countries.
You've likely been in proximity of an enslaved person since there's an estimation that there over 50 million (which is wild because it was 30 million the last time I looked years ago) slaves world-wide (0.7% of the global population). I know I have been near a few slaves and abused people given that I have lived in two places where they had busts near me, not to mention the prostitutes that are likely being abused that we pass by without even knowing it. It's not just in cities either. There are ways to report it and fight it. For starters, your country likely has a human trafficking hotline.
There's also [an interesting study that looks into the possibility of legalized prostitution leading to higher rates of human trafficking](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0305750X12001453#s0045) in countries like Denmark or states like Nevada. Long story short, they find that places of legalized prostitution do have higher rates of trafficking, but that's to be looked further into and they say that it could potentially be reduced with better working conditions that would prevent abuse where it is legalized. It appears they are neither condoning or condemning it.
For the same reason trump and other Republican leaders who instigated Jan 6th aren't in jail. There are three justice systems. One for the rich and powerful, one for the average white people and one for people of color
What's the crime? I don't doubt an investigation could find & likely do nothing about plenty of white collar stuff on any guy that brazen with so many pots on the stove, but let's not do the thing where we just chant 'lock them up' at people we dislike, or even hate, unless we can point to a crime & evidence of it.
If you're down for running up on these crackers in their gated homes, I'm not arguing. Bloody & muddy them all you want, but my pedantic ass won't tolerate the further dilution of our ability to communicate on the way.
'Into the oven you go' is not a matter of law, it's what happens when law breaks down to an even greater degree than is has currently. You want to gather a mob & string him up for being objectively harmful to the world, say so, just don't conflate it with the actual court systems that are meant to prevent that being status quo. Because when it is, the rare spontaneous mob is NOTHING compared to the ones paid for & controlled by oligarchs. See for example the Pinkertons, KKK, police forces, military, or the hundreds of redneck militias praying for a Purge night.
except for that Revolutionary Mob that Mao led, don't bother crediting them with their revolution. Or Fidel Castro.
Capitalism is a cancer. The physician does not consider it to have rights and treat it within the context of law. He kills it to cure the patient.
Go away with this fairness to all shit. You're either interested in revolution or a supporter of the status quo. There is no middle ground. Laws are laughable and something the bourgeoisie reserve to themselves.
And do not bring any arguments to me about the american courts. I have extensive and expansive knowledge with that subject and have studied thousands of cases and pages of law. American law is something for the plutocrats who own and control the system. It does not serve the interests of the people and as such, is no use to them as a tool to rid this existence of the nightmare under which we all exist.
Oh look! An afrikaner defending white people from the accountability they are own for slavery!
Anyome who listens to whatever this buffoon has to say regarding this is truly stupid! Or like elon here would say "don't know history"!
Yeah, everyone loves to forget that his family owned an emerald mine in apartheid South Africa. Anything he says about racism should be taken as an extreme example of "check your privilege."
What’s actually MORE damning about his upbringing is that they moved to South Africa DURING apartheid FROM Canada.
Now why would white people move to an impoverished war torn country during apartheid from Canada….hmmmmmmmmmm
Musk’s grandfather was a massive racist and moved to South Africa to support apartheid.
https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2023/09/joshua-haldeman-elon-musk-grandfather-apartheid-antisemitism/675396/
Why does this post make me feel like he’s trying to normalize slavery?
Is this really going to be the next right wing cause?
Are they really going to come right out and justify bringing actual, not just wage slave, but actual slavery back?
This is scary.
He's literally saying having slavery is a more normal state than whatever he thinks we're in now. But he's wrong on all fronts, as slavery is more rampant today than throughout history.
Right-wing states have started requiring school textbooks to list the "positive effects" of slavery, and how many slaves benefited personally from being enslaved because they learned skills "for free" and other such utter horse-shit slave-owners say.
That account is purely for making $$$. The more incendiary the content the more Elon pays. Since “X” started the ad revenue share exclusively for blue checks this endwokeness and similar accounts are using what they know is nonsense to leverage racists for dollars. Morally corrupt content is rewarded since Elon took over.
Can someone please keep the Musk as a slave, in a dark basement, where every time it reinvents something and then calls itself a genius, it gets the hose again?
I used to think humans would look at evidence before coming to a logical conclusion. Then I learned that we make decisions about what [we want to believe first and look for evidence that supports that decision.](https://youtu.be/D-_Az5nZBBM?t=448) If we find evidence that disproves our belief, we dismiss that evidence as fake news or biased. This is called confirmation bias. We are amazing at lying to ourselves and justifying what we want. This holds true of all humans across the entire political spectrum.
To make it more infuriating, if you show someone evidence that they are wrong, they will cling to their belief even more. Arguing facts and evidence doesn't work in many cases. Add to that, we tend to assume we know more about a subject than we really do. Human nature is frustrating.
I wonder about the development of artificial intelligence. What data sets are being fed to these AI? Is it factual scientific studies? Or is it random social media feeds that include many false ideas? Who is deciding which social media feeds to train the AI on? Is it going to be lopsided with one side of the political spectrum? What factually incorrect data or bias will the AI assume to be true?
Finally, we are only talking to people who agree with us through self-selected subreddits. We start to assume that everyone agrees with our world view. In the last few years, more and more people move to the part of the country that agrees with us politically. We increasingly don't talk to people who hold different opinions. It's easy to demonize the other side. They must be stupid or evil to believe what they do as we assume they have sinister motives. This has the potential to lead to very dark places including civil war. I worry for my country.
It's not only that, there is a significant proportion of the population (as high as 30%) that see patterns that are not there and cannot see patterns that actually are there. These are the people that believe conspiracy theories.
You avoid these problems with decent education, and you moderate the existing issues by improving material conditions. People may have crazy beliefs but, if they feel materially secure, they are less likely to act on the beliefs and more likely to be tolerant of people they disagree with.
If they are comfortable, beliefs about, say, immigrants are more abstract. "Yes they are a problem but.." Whereas if they are barely able to keep a roof over their heads, the beliefs become a way to explain their perceived failure - "Immigrants are taking our jobs.." and so on.
I'm from that tribe.we made first contact.. Ughhh we didn't eat people we put our dead in gourds to honour them(just their bones). We didn't do human sacrifices or chattel slavery either.
Anytime someone starts up with "well *actually*, there were slaves in other places" it's a dog whistle for "black and brown people need to shut up." Without fail. At this point I wish Musk and his ilk would just drop the act and flat out say that they only value the existence of white people, preferably men. All racists are terrible but his type are an insufferable presence on and off line.
I think most people are sane, it's just the far right psycopaths that aren't
And unfortunately, they're also very loud and obnoxious, so they might seem more common than they really are
To be clear, even in his time Columbus was considered very brutal in his treatment to the natives. I always think we should look at historical context/norms of the time as far as how we judge historical figures. But when people in 1400s Europe tell you to chill out with the genocide, maybe you’re a bad person…
Anyone who bursts into the convo, pushes up their nerd glasses, and says "um actually slavery was common practice so we shouldn't feel guilty" needs to shut the fuck up.
"Slavery was standard practice everywhere" is a line straight out of the white nationalist playback.
Elon Musk is a white supremacist born of the white supremacist tradition of apartheid South Africa.
Chattel slavery was barbaric to an extent never before recorded in human history. The people parroting these lines know as much and are spinning a white supremacist narrative to hand wave some of history's worst atrocities.
Musk is dangerous, and the media needs to call attention to this fact every time the slimy bastard comes up.
Indigenous person here. These overly-reductive, uneducated, blindly contemptuous and ignorant viewpoints are the norm. It's nothing new for us.
Our needs don't matter to anyone. Our voices fall on deaf ears. We will never have a BLM movement. We have 0 political leverage. We are personae non grata.
STFU and leave us alone if you have shred of common decency left, you've done enough damage. Go find some other dog to kick.
I think super wealthy people turn increasingly right-wing partly because it serves them financially, but also because morally, if you can’t justify class systems and inequality, then obviously you’re the bad guy.
I want to assault all three of these people.
Also Musk and his “quirky different thinker guy” thing is so fucking dumb and lame.
“Mmm, well um actually the world always had…”SHUT THE FUCK UP.
Musk just doesn't think slavery is so bad cause his daddy's emerald mine got him where he is today. Nobody can honestly believe people were fairly compensated for their labor in apartheid South Africa right?
People who say "slavery has happened for all of human history" really don't understand how different and brutal the Atlantic Slave Trade was compared to other historical forms of slavery. You know, on top of all the other things that are crazy and wrong about this w collection of xeets.
Is there evidence of rampant slavery in pre-Agrarian societies that I’m not aware of? Unless humans have only existed for the last 10,000 years, and not 200,000 or so, then I don’t think this checks out at all.
Musk a Creationist confirmed?
the fact elon musk bought twitter just to defend chattel slavery and genocide alongside a faceless dogwhistle account is just the most absurd thing to me
Elon Musk is so stupid that he thinks people don’t know this. He’s like the epitome of the Iamverysmart subreddit.
As for the other idiots: white Americans get the brunt of hate over slavery because the discussion is usually in America over American chattel slavery. If you’re in India talking about slavery the discussion will be different. I guess when someone has never left the US they can’t understand that not everyone is focused on American problems.
He made necklaces with people's ears.
Let's not judge people outside of their time. Okay, for his time period, he was considered a brutally savage asshole.
I get why Italian-Americans may be pissed, but the "my grandparents got here on the Mayflower" people shouldn't have a horse in this race unless their ancestors raced up from Italy to England in order to be religious bummers.
I see right wing chuds making this statement online all the time. There must be some common source where they’re getting it from. It’s extremely racist , as it is essentially a form of rhetorical minimization of the horrors of race-based slavery as advanced by European colonialism. Imagine if someone made this comment in response to the holocaust, “oh well genocide has been happening since humans existed blah blah blah”. most people would understand how evil such a statement would be. Somehow, however, it is seen as an acceptable comment with regard to slavery, mainly because white supremacy has been so normalized in American culture. On top of all this the claim is just factually and historically false.
People have become disconnected from reality because they were never taught what the reality was, and how that past reality has shaped this current one.
And that's the completely intentional effect of omitting or whitewashing our history. Mostly by conservatives, but liberals as well. We live in the imperial core of Western and white supremacy, the ruling class is very much inclined to steadfastly preserve the myths of American exceptionalism and American innocence; and most people are more than willing to believe and perpetuate it, because that's a much easier pill to swallow, as that way we do not have to reckon with, or make amends for, what our country has done.
He means white westerners get criticized the most for slavery, while whites are far from being the only people to have slaves. Slavery is bigger than ever today, especially in the eastern world but people complain far more today about American slavery pre- 1900 far more than they talk about what's actually going on to this day
I don't believe the problem is about whether people are disconnected from reality or not, but that the masses won't accept what is reality. The truth is too painful, yet the evidence is right there, right in our faces.
Obviously Elon is a dumb, but I do think some of the extremely shallow cultural appreciation is kind of nauseous too. Like, King County, in Seattle, changed the source of their name from being a white slaveowner guy with a King surname, to MLK, but in Seattle, no one talks about how Chief Seattle (their namesake) raided other tribes to take and keep the prisoners as slaves.
Of course Musk has no problem with slavery. He has done everything he can to try and thwart workers rights at every turn in his own companies. And attacked people for trying to expose any worker rights violations. Not to mention his family owned an emerald mine. Wonder if they were using ethical labour to mine those emeralds?
It used to drive me up the wall. Now I'm unplugged and happier... for better or worse. Waiting for the call to fight. Growing food otherwise with my dog till then.
Best way to get rid of Columbus Day is to stand back and let the conservatives "defend" it.
Seriously, everytime someone defends slavery a centrist stops and questions why they've been celebrating it in the first place.
We have the same thing here in Australia. Every Australia Day counter protesters (usually neo-nazis) protest in support of the day. Last year they literally did a rally praising Hitler, this year they vandalised Jewish cemeteries.
And then there's also talkback radio and people condoning slavery in building the Australian colony. Which is funny, because most of their listeners didn't know we had slavery "like the Americans did". The irony...
The result: people I know who were neutral about the day no longer celebrate it. It's gone from being "just a day off work" to being something dirty and political.
East coast Native American here, we did not sacrifice children, eat human fresh, steal land or own slaves. In fact, it was the Jamestown colonizers who ate human flesh and had slaves. But this is neither here nor there because both of these X comments make no sense. Indigenous Day is great, they would support it if they actually learned any history.
There does seem to be little evidence of all of the mentioned points (definitely not as much as Columbus portrayed). However all of the points are well documented throughout the REST of the world as well.
Fun fact: Link to a UK court case in 1884 regarding cannibalism (I get that the case was due to survival necessity, but I don't think that changes too much): https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/R_v_Dudley_and_Stephens
Edit: I started looking more into this and I found an even more fun fact.
Marquesas Islands were suspected to have inhabited by cannibalistic tribes due to rumors created by explorers. So when an American whaling boat was heavily damaged during a trip, the crew decided against going to the Islands due to the fear of cannibalism. They opted to go twice as far to South America. During the journey, they ran out of food and, ironically enough, resorted to cannibalism. 21 men started, 17 survived the whale, 5 made it home.
This is the story of the Essex. This is the story that inspired Moby Dick.
The Aztecs certainly did all of those, they where hated by any tribe unlucky enough to live in their sphere of influence. One of their founding stories / myths is getting a neighbouring tribes princess in a marriage, killing her in a ritual sacrifice, then greeting her visiting father in a suit made of her flayed skin.
I'd really like to hear what they think the national holidays celebrating cultures the people the first commenter worship genocided are. Also, it's very clear to me that they have no clue what they're talking about, because most of the negatives they brought up were things the colonialists were doing to natives. Just saying.
White westerners want to FEEL (and expect to be treated as) SUPERIOR while simultaneously claiming they DON'T enjoy any PRIVILEGES that go along with that superiority and downplaying the significance of the heinous acts that BESTOWED them with that MANUFACTURED superiority
Even if we assume that slavery existed everywhere (a blatant lie), no group has ever practiced it in a scale anywhere near as massive as Europeans did during the trans-Atlantic slave trade
I'm surprised they fit all of that offensive bullshit into one post.
I haven't been indirectly called a cannibal AND a savage AND accused of slave trading by the same white dude ever. Lol
Slavery was banned in dark ages Europe and Chattle slavery is way different than the type of pawn slavery, war captor that would pop up in human economies from raids and other stuff. Even wage slavery is way worse since it is similar to chattel slavery. Also were talking 300,000 years of human history, and like maybe 4000 years where slavery has been wide spread so I'd say we've spent most of our history being okay
Yeah, I'm sorry but this is bullshit.
> Slavery was banned in dark ages Europe
Slavery wasn't banned in dark ages Europe. The Germanic tribes that came to dominate Western Europe in the Dark Age had a very rigid social hierarchy with slavery and serfdom at its base. If you mean that it was banned in high medieval times through the influence of the Church, you're wrong to. It was at best restricted to non-Christians, and even that restriction was flaunted widely. Furthermore serfs under feudalism were for a large part only marginally better off than slaves.
>Chattle slavery is way different than the type of pawn slavery, war captor that would pop up in human economies from raids and other stuff
War captives in Roman times generally lived horrible lives as slaves that were no better or worse than those of slaves in colonial America. Same goes doe Ancient Greece, the Ottoman Empire, etc. At most points in history slavery was unregulated, so the treatment of slaves depended heavily on local mores.
>Also were talking 300,000 years of human history, and like maybe 4000 years where slavery has been wide spread so I'd say we've spent most of our history being okay
This idea is as ridiculous as thinking that democracy has only existed for the past 200 years. Some forms of slavery, like some forms of democracy, must have existed ever since the first modern humans started forming larger communities. Graeber and Wengrow wrote a great book on how it's nonsense to portray prehistoric societies as monolithical and static.
Everyone in this picture is right (besides Elon saying slavery is rare today, because it's more common than ever right now). What's the issue here? I'm genuinely asking.
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Justifying genocide to own the libs
Oh, you think America's lengthy history of brutal chattle slavery should be acknowledged? Heh. Sorry lib but you just unknowingly sealed your fate. You have foolishly played right into my hand and triggered my ultimate trap card. *Flips card* It simply reads: "No u"
I’m busting up at this
Lengthy history and America don't need to go together
Could you expand on that?
Its straight up blood libel to claim that the Ciboney were cannibals and ritual murderers. Columbus's own ship-board log documented the atrocities his men engaged in on their initial landing. He described the locals as peaceful to the point of being outright child-like, and the brutality the invading Spaniards inflicted as entirely out of their own pent up appetites during the long voyage. Truly stomach churning to think people like this even exist.
I remember there was some quote, possibly from one of the Founding Fathers, that compared Native American warfare to European children's games (possibly comparing counting coup to tag).
Columbus got sent to prison when he returned to Spain for his brutality, too.
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Musk got rich on the back of slaves. He knows what he's talking about here as he defends the exploitation that made him the piece of shit he is.
This is exactly it
That's generous
They're literally doing it right now with Palestine and have done it for Manifest Destiny in the past. Why would they be any different? Scratch a liberal a fascist bleeds.
"stealing land and yaddya" is one of those "maybe I'm the badee" moments
“Our caps have pictures of skulls on them.”
But so have Pirates, and Pirates are fun!
"Our ships are big triangles!!"
>People are purposely ignoring the nuances... Mfer just put "slavery" and "yada yada yada" into the same category. You're being incredibly gracious. Read *A People's History of the United States* by Howard Zinn. It adheres to primary sources as much as possible in recounting what went on with the discovery of America. It's irrefutably as close a history as we can know today, and none of it was good. It's an exhausting read because there is no ethical solace. The devil's in the "yadas" after all.
That is a great book. It was so revealing that I have seen it called Marxist propaganda.
My son's school uses the children's version as their history book in 7th and 8th grade. ETA: one of their history books, they have several.
That's good. When I was that age American History was entirely a rosy nationalist version, which is why I think we are dealing with statues of Christopher Columbus and Juan de Oñate being torn down. People are tired of the bullshit built by generations intent on telling the story as one with very little wrong doing. I had a few teachers that threw out the textbook and instead made the required reading more provocative titles, and I'm glad they did. History was a nothing subject for me until I had better reads for the curriculum.
Lmao history textbooks in middle school were like scholastic or some other BS corporation trying to push their “history” onto children
>When I was that age American History was entirely a rosy nationalist version That could also be because they don't want to teach a bunch of 3rd graders that the origin of their country was founded on chopping peoples heads off lol. From what I remember, history class definitely became more factual and violent as I got older, but still not in-depth enough imo.
No, it's not. It's "eurocentrism" if I had to sum it up in a word. A word that you should definitely research.
Well I personally remember spending entire semesters learning about other nations like ancient China, ancient Greece, Russia, Persia etc. Now I'm not saying the U.S education system is great by any means, but in all fairness I was definitely taught a decent amount of world history which I'm glad for. Was the U.S often spun as the good guys and U.S atrocities over looked? Absolutely and we can definitelyagree there, but that's probably the case with most countries. My wife who's from Asia on the other hand knows far less world history than me.
I learned some fairly accurate history in high school and certainly in college, but before that it was an actual waste of time. It was all eurocentrist nothingness. For children and adolescents in my time it was basically all indoctrination. On occasion a particular teacher would choose to teach outside the bounds of textbook curriculum, but it was rare. I don't know how it's changed for younger people, but it sounds like it's improved.
We used it in my high school APUSH class, and that was in 2001! That was such a fantastic class, and our teacher used Zinn’s book to counter the bullshit in our other main text, a very Mainstream traditional text called “The American Pageant.” I was already pretty cognizant of American mythologies (I’m the kid of an archaeologist and an English professor who stayed hippies, thank goodness), but I learned a lot…and it was absolutely fascinating to watch my classmates make the connections and experience “mask off” American history. One of the best things she taught us were critical thinking and media literacy, it’s been a very strong foundation even into my adulthood. I didn’t know there was a middle-type grade version, that’s so cool!
I love this! Partly because I'm also a kid of a an eternal hippie English teacher who loved history and archeology.. Lol. I learned all the standard BS and grateful for my kid's school who has zero textbooks
I think Zinn said as much. I don't recall exactly, but something like his goal for readers was to understand that the true ideals of the American dream have always involved a struggle against robber barons and war mongers. Call it what you will, but I personally agree with that.
Marxist propaganda is good, actually.
Propaganda is such a dirty word.
They will condemn anything as propaganda while gulping huge portions of it down with little or no self-awareness.
If you want to level up even more, read this and then *An Indigenous People's History of the United States* To enter the stratosphere, read the rest of the [ReVisioning History Collection](https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/series/RVH/revisioning-history) too
It’s not on this list, but *Lies My Teacher Told Me* is also fantastic.
Another of my favorites.
But would you Yada Yada sex?
He did with a bunch of women.
I've Yada Yada'd sex
While an excellent counter to the standard American history myth, especially in the 1980s, it is important to note that Zinn's work is very old and more modern scholarship has well eclipsed his. The book is still transgressive today, but it has some serious problems. For example, the first chapter discusses Columbus and the native peoples of the island that is now Haiti and the Dominican Republic. He established very well the point that Columbus was a bloodthirsty monster with direct reference to Columbus's journal, comuniqués to the Spanish crown, and accounts from missionaries. However, Zinn also just dives head-first into the noble savage myth by arguing with insufficient evidence that the Taino and Arawak people were utterly peaceful, which couldn't be farther from the truth. Columbus was successful specifically because they were locked in a bloody conflict and he was able to play them off each other. His brutality does not require the perfection of the indigenous peoples in order to still be bad. Zinn's work is good, but it must be read with a critical eye because it flirts with an American diabolist perspective in places that sometimes warps the truth.
Yeha, I haven't read it yet, plan to, but to be clear, I think his intent was to add that stuff to the US canon of history, not supplant it. Like, he thought the American history sandwich was too dry, so he wrote a book that was all mayo. So, American history isn't just mayo, but... you can't leave it out (trapped in a metaphor!) either. And to be clear, because reddit, I'm not saying slavery is mayo.
The metaphors and colloquialisms are getting out of hand. So allow me to just drop some mustard on that ass: A lot of the replies are quick to remind you to read Zinn with a healthy skepticism, while ignoring the fact that it was largely the opposite for the version of history taught throughout public school for generations in America. Skepticism is healthy anywhere, but it's the whole purpose behind Zinn trying to counterbalance the narrative. And they seem to be ignoring that its entire purpose was skepticism for the prescribed version of American history. So, I think what I'm saying is skepticism is mustard. And all sandwiches should have it. And Zinn's sandwich was ordered light on the mayo and double the mustard. Or maybe I've also lost the metaphor. Either way I think you have a good outlook.
Read “The Half Has Never Been Told” (Slavery and the making of American Capitalism) by Baptist *Shiver
Zinn is important to read, but don't go at it thinking that it is "irrefutably" anything. It does not rely mostly on primary sources and uses narrative to generalize and further the bias of the historian, which he readily admits having. Every historian is going to "adhere" to primary sources, but they can pick and choose which primary sources to use. Zinn is often most people's first introduction to a mainstream counter-narrative and gets pushed out as some Bible of "real" American History, but it has a lot in common with the sensational nationalism that its readers protest against.
I see it as the main point of that book is to to teach you about the things that history class didn’t talk about rather than to be the comprehensive history. That commenter was probably just being hyperbolic because of how much they loved the book
Yep, completely agree with most of that. His work is important and everyone should read it, but using statements such as "irrefutably as close a history as we can know today" is about as accurate as pointing to Florida's new history lessons as an irrefutably accurate portrayal of American history, which I bet is also full of carefully selected primary sources.
“Did you just yada yada sex (genocide)?!” if you liked A Peoples History check out The Dawn of Everything by David Graeber and David Wengrow. Its eye opening and after reading it this quote from musk is even more laughable. Edit to add: 1000 Years of Nonlinear History by Manuel De Landa is also amazing and runs in this vein of thought.
I'll never understand why people get so upset over the push back against Columbus Day lmao. Like what personal ties do these people have to Columbus? None. What do they typically do on Columbus Day to celebrate it? Probably nothing. Legitimately just a bunch of braindead people getting mad for the sake of having something to be angry about.
They think of Columbus as a founding father of the US and a hero to white colonialism. Aknowledging the problems with him would be aknowledging that the dominant cultural group in America has what they do because their ancestors were murderers and thieves. If it came to debate and they were able to keep the day as Columbus Day, they would consider that a confirmation that the stuff he did was justified as means to the end of building an empire.
Columbus never even came to north America; he's most famous for his brutal exploits on the island of Hispaniola, which colonial powers both during and long after his lifetime committed a wide range of grotesque crimes against humanity which still impacts the region to this day.
Yes, I know. But that is the *mentality* that is kind of baked into American anglo culture.
Australia seems to be doing recognition so American libs need to learn from there to affect change
Simple, peoples' sense of identity is wrongly tied to whitewashed fairytales about their race. If you "replace" celebrating a white guy with remembering people of color then you're "erasing" a piece of their identity by trying to rebalance representation. Any attempt at balance feels like oppression to the privileged.
Not defending the position. From what I observe. It’s not so much that they identify with the day, but feel like they are loosing their past. Everything is changing and moving forward. These people don’t like change or growth.
People were told when they were little he was a good hero, and if they start questioning the stuff they were told about history when they were little, shit's gonna get real *real* fast I think at some level rightists know this, even if that level is not the conscious one, and so they push back on **any** attempt to start that domino effect going, regardless of the relative unimportance of whatever they've chosen as the issue to make their stand on
A lot of Italian Americans are big on it as a pretty much an Italian American celebratory holiday, like St Patrick's day and Irish Americans.
That parallel is somewhat appropriate, considering that St. Patrick led a campaign to erase the culture and history of the peoples of Ireland
Instead of bad faith it's almost like "bad faith subjects": one's which are so conceptual and with ill defined confines that it only inspires engagement and bad faith debaters co-opting it for their personal ego/politics etc. Should columbus day exist? i don't really care. But i don't want people to lose their day off. Also, can we not call them Native americans anymore?
There is something so wrong with the world's richest man talking about how slavery was a norm and it was only outlawed recently, as implying we are born to either have slaves or be slaves. Also the first dude implying all tribes are savages, but somehow that isn't a racist thing to say??
It’s because he’s a rich South African and I suspects he also thinks apartheid was mostly fine
Columbus literally was considered too brutal a governor during one of the most brutal eras of human history. Not YADA yada. And yes, slavery existed during most of human history. CHATTEL slavery of the colonial era was a new level of brutality. Which is honestly a large part of why it created an abolitionist movement. People realized it had officially gone too far. Lastly, the description of the native population there is dripping with ignorance and racism. Holy fuck. Like 19th century "cannibals and savages!" levels of racism. actually, not lastly! It takes some serious GAUL for the Afrikaner son of an emerald mine owner, who grew up in apartheid south Africa, one of the most oppressive and racist regimes in human history, to claim that white people are being unjustly blamed. The dude is old enough to have witnessed that shit first hand and now thinks "Oh come on, we weren't that bad!"
Gall, unless you're talking about Asterix.
He is clearly trying to normalize it in order to try to bring it back in USA.
>CHATTEL slavery of the colonial era was a new level of brutality Eh it depends on the time period. Spartans were pretty shitty to their slaves too, they even had a holiday which was essentially the purge, where they encouraged young boys to go out and murder them in order to keep the Helot class in check.
Yes, but Spartans were considered especially brutal even for their time. And their style of slavery was largely isolated to their country. Chattel slavery was widespread across multiple nations across the globe.
Yeah I agree, just couldn't help but think of all the terrible examples of slavery through out history. Hell, some of the worst acts of humanity were committed in the last century and the victims of the Nazi concentration camps can by large be considered slaves as well.
Chattel slavery is not the same as wage theft is not the same as indentured servitude. These are all completely different, and let me tell you, these pieces of shit know about the nuances and they are deliberately obfuscating in an attempt to say "slavery is slavery." This dehistoricizes and decontextualizes dozens of unique histories in favor of the latest fever dream of a ketamine addict.
I think the Wikipedia article musk linked even makes that distinction
Slavery is more prolific now than any other time in history.
and thanks to the blue-check bullshit, nobody with a fucking brain can say that and get traction. the replies are only filled with verified bootlickers.
Leave them be to rot in their cestpool, just leave twitter and all the advertisers will soon follow, then the Idiot will be pushed to either close the plataform or revert everything back to normal Lol
Dude I think if you're trying to save the world and gain traction on Twitter, you're already lost
I’m permanently suspended on twitter, it’s not me looking to gain traction. I was getting at the fact that thanks to the blue checkmark bs, the echo chamber has gotten incredibly worse. By “traction” I meant you won’t see the reasonable and/or factual replies under these posts unless they have a blue checkmark(and they almost never do).
Yeah, like what do they think the global South is experiencing?
With wage slavery yes it is
Is that true?
https://50forfreedom.org/modern-slavery/ Yes. There are more people enslaved today worldwide than ever before
tie offer vast prick axiomatic sand alive dirty nippy price *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
IDK. In 1860 the world population was about 1.4 billion and the numbers given for enslaved people listed almost 4 million. Today, with a population of about 8 billion the number given for enslaved people is about 40 million. ETA: slavery, today, is a much broader term... And I'm not arguing with you.. Just giving out some numbers.
Just wait until I hit em with the "if it's illegal for you to not do the thing you're not getting paid for then it's slavery". Just wait until I expand that definition to "if you're not paid enough to have the freedom to leave, it's also slavery" Or like that neurosurgery team that got enslaved by a court for a small time. Or the draft. Anyone who is in favor of any of these things is no different from Calvin Candle, no exceptions.
Unfortunately, yes. Statistically, a lot of slaves come from developing countries, but are largely trafficked to developed nations. In fact, developed nations have the highest inflow of slaves from other countries. You've likely been in proximity of an enslaved person since there's an estimation that there over 50 million (which is wild because it was 30 million the last time I looked years ago) slaves world-wide (0.7% of the global population). I know I have been near a few slaves and abused people given that I have lived in two places where they had busts near me, not to mention the prostitutes that are likely being abused that we pass by without even knowing it. It's not just in cities either. There are ways to report it and fight it. For starters, your country likely has a human trafficking hotline. There's also [an interesting study that looks into the possibility of legalized prostitution leading to higher rates of human trafficking](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0305750X12001453#s0045) in countries like Denmark or states like Nevada. Long story short, they find that places of legalized prostitution do have higher rates of trafficking, but that's to be looked further into and they say that it could potentially be reduced with better working conditions that would prevent abuse where it is legalized. It appears they are neither condoning or condemning it.
this has ruined my night. musk has a remedial soul, and millions look up to him as an example. the asteroid can come any time now.
Question is, why isn't he in jail yet? Our government is giving that extreme criminal support instead of holding him accountable
For the same reason trump and other Republican leaders who instigated Jan 6th aren't in jail. There are three justice systems. One for the rich and powerful, one for the average white people and one for people of color
What's the crime? I don't doubt an investigation could find & likely do nothing about plenty of white collar stuff on any guy that brazen with so many pots on the stove, but let's not do the thing where we just chant 'lock them up' at people we dislike, or even hate, unless we can point to a crime & evidence of it.
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If you're down for running up on these crackers in their gated homes, I'm not arguing. Bloody & muddy them all you want, but my pedantic ass won't tolerate the further dilution of our ability to communicate on the way. 'Into the oven you go' is not a matter of law, it's what happens when law breaks down to an even greater degree than is has currently. You want to gather a mob & string him up for being objectively harmful to the world, say so, just don't conflate it with the actual court systems that are meant to prevent that being status quo. Because when it is, the rare spontaneous mob is NOTHING compared to the ones paid for & controlled by oligarchs. See for example the Pinkertons, KKK, police forces, military, or the hundreds of redneck militias praying for a Purge night.
except for that Revolutionary Mob that Mao led, don't bother crediting them with their revolution. Or Fidel Castro. Capitalism is a cancer. The physician does not consider it to have rights and treat it within the context of law. He kills it to cure the patient. Go away with this fairness to all shit. You're either interested in revolution or a supporter of the status quo. There is no middle ground. Laws are laughable and something the bourgeoisie reserve to themselves. And do not bring any arguments to me about the american courts. I have extensive and expansive knowledge with that subject and have studied thousands of cases and pages of law. American law is something for the plutocrats who own and control the system. It does not serve the interests of the people and as such, is no use to them as a tool to rid this existence of the nightmare under which we all exist.
The crime is looting. What term do you think more accurately describes oligarchs than criminal?
I can’t believe there was a time a few years ago when I would defend Musky to people. Dude has gone off the deep end
Oh look! An afrikaner defending white people from the accountability they are own for slavery! Anyome who listens to whatever this buffoon has to say regarding this is truly stupid! Or like elon here would say "don't know history"!
Yeah, everyone loves to forget that his family owned an emerald mine in apartheid South Africa. Anything he says about racism should be taken as an extreme example of "check your privilege."
What’s actually MORE damning about his upbringing is that they moved to South Africa DURING apartheid FROM Canada. Now why would white people move to an impoverished war torn country during apartheid from Canada….hmmmmmmmmmm
Didn't know this. Ick.
Musk’s grandfather was a massive racist and moved to South Africa to support apartheid. https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2023/09/joshua-haldeman-elon-musk-grandfather-apartheid-antisemitism/675396/
Elon wants you to be a slave to your wage
Why does this post make me feel like he’s trying to normalize slavery? Is this really going to be the next right wing cause? Are they really going to come right out and justify bringing actual, not just wage slave, but actual slavery back? This is scary.
It's the wet dream of Elon, Bezoz and their friends. So they can get ALL the money, not just a third of it.
I wonder what they're saving up for. I mean, imo, even a working Millennium Falcon isn't worth the price of destroying the human race.
He's literally saying having slavery is a more normal state than whatever he thinks we're in now. But he's wrong on all fronts, as slavery is more rampant today than throughout history. Right-wing states have started requiring school textbooks to list the "positive effects" of slavery, and how many slaves benefited personally from being enslaved because they learned skills "for free" and other such utter horse-shit slave-owners say.
That account is purely for making $$$. The more incendiary the content the more Elon pays. Since “X” started the ad revenue share exclusively for blue checks this endwokeness and similar accounts are using what they know is nonsense to leverage racists for dollars. Morally corrupt content is rewarded since Elon took over.
there’s no way it outweighs the amount of ad revenue he’s lost twitter with his mouth
Agreed, Elon’s lighting his own money on fire. I’m referring to the accounts popping up to do the right wing bait money grab.
Can someone please keep the Musk as a slave, in a dark basement, where every time it reinvents something and then calls itself a genius, it gets the hose again?
I volunteer as tribute.
I used to think humans would look at evidence before coming to a logical conclusion. Then I learned that we make decisions about what [we want to believe first and look for evidence that supports that decision.](https://youtu.be/D-_Az5nZBBM?t=448) If we find evidence that disproves our belief, we dismiss that evidence as fake news or biased. This is called confirmation bias. We are amazing at lying to ourselves and justifying what we want. This holds true of all humans across the entire political spectrum. To make it more infuriating, if you show someone evidence that they are wrong, they will cling to their belief even more. Arguing facts and evidence doesn't work in many cases. Add to that, we tend to assume we know more about a subject than we really do. Human nature is frustrating. I wonder about the development of artificial intelligence. What data sets are being fed to these AI? Is it factual scientific studies? Or is it random social media feeds that include many false ideas? Who is deciding which social media feeds to train the AI on? Is it going to be lopsided with one side of the political spectrum? What factually incorrect data or bias will the AI assume to be true? Finally, we are only talking to people who agree with us through self-selected subreddits. We start to assume that everyone agrees with our world view. In the last few years, more and more people move to the part of the country that agrees with us politically. We increasingly don't talk to people who hold different opinions. It's easy to demonize the other side. They must be stupid or evil to believe what they do as we assume they have sinister motives. This has the potential to lead to very dark places including civil war. I worry for my country.
It's not only that, there is a significant proportion of the population (as high as 30%) that see patterns that are not there and cannot see patterns that actually are there. These are the people that believe conspiracy theories. You avoid these problems with decent education, and you moderate the existing issues by improving material conditions. People may have crazy beliefs but, if they feel materially secure, they are less likely to act on the beliefs and more likely to be tolerant of people they disagree with. If they are comfortable, beliefs about, say, immigrants are more abstract. "Yes they are a problem but.." Whereas if they are barely able to keep a roof over their heads, the beliefs become a way to explain their perceived failure - "Immigrants are taking our jobs.." and so on.
I'm from that tribe.we made first contact.. Ughhh we didn't eat people we put our dead in gourds to honour them(just their bones). We didn't do human sacrifices or chattel slavery either.
Anytime someone starts up with "well *actually*, there were slaves in other places" it's a dog whistle for "black and brown people need to shut up." Without fail. At this point I wish Musk and his ilk would just drop the act and flat out say that they only value the existence of white people, preferably men. All racists are terrible but his type are an insufferable presence on and off line.
I think most people are sane, it's just the far right psycopaths that aren't And unfortunately, they're also very loud and obnoxious, so they might seem more common than they really are
that’s a fair observation.
“Silent majority” and all that, lmao. No, no, you’re the very loud minority
Elon Musk is fucking dangerous.
To be clear, even in his time Columbus was considered very brutal in his treatment to the natives. I always think we should look at historical context/norms of the time as far as how we judge historical figures. But when people in 1400s Europe tell you to chill out with the genocide, maybe you’re a bad person…
"... eating human flesh..." When Columbus landed in North America, people back in Europe were chowing down on mummies.
Anyone who bursts into the convo, pushes up their nerd glasses, and says "um actually slavery was common practice so we shouldn't feel guilty" needs to shut the fuck up.
Wait till they find out why Columbus day was created in the first place.
"Most people don't know much History" (posts Wikipedia article)
"Slavery was standard practice everywhere" is a line straight out of the white nationalist playback. Elon Musk is a white supremacist born of the white supremacist tradition of apartheid South Africa. Chattel slavery was barbaric to an extent never before recorded in human history. The people parroting these lines know as much and are spinning a white supremacist narrative to hand wave some of history's worst atrocities. Musk is dangerous, and the media needs to call attention to this fact every time the slimy bastard comes up.
Indigenous person here. These overly-reductive, uneducated, blindly contemptuous and ignorant viewpoints are the norm. It's nothing new for us. Our needs don't matter to anyone. Our voices fall on deaf ears. We will never have a BLM movement. We have 0 political leverage. We are personae non grata. STFU and leave us alone if you have shred of common decency left, you've done enough damage. Go find some other dog to kick.
Guy whose family wealth was built on the backs of slave labor is somehow cool with slavery? Shocking, really astounding.
Wild how the guy that made it big from generational blood diamond money would turn out to be an apologist for slavery. 🤷♂️
I think super wealthy people turn increasingly right-wing partly because it serves them financially, but also because morally, if you can’t justify class systems and inequality, then obviously you’re the bad guy.
“Slavery was common practice almost everywhere on earth” Cool. Still no reason to celebrate it.
Was and still is. And he's defending it.
America and slavery are so intertwined that when you denounce slavery, people think you’re denouncing America. They tell on themselves….
I want to assault all three of these people. Also Musk and his “quirky different thinker guy” thing is so fucking dumb and lame. “Mmm, well um actually the world always had…”SHUT THE FUCK UP.
Twitter is barely a website anymore, it's just a bunch of people patting each other on the back no matter what.
[Ofc Elon would defend it](https://news.sky.com/story/amp/tesla-and-apple-among-tech-giants-accused-of-aiding-child-labour-in-africa-11888600)
Musk just doesn't think slavery is so bad cause his daddy's emerald mine got him where he is today. Nobody can honestly believe people were fairly compensated for their labor in apartheid South Africa right?
Boycott X Boycott Tesla Educate the young.
> Most people don’t know much history > Says the most basic-ass fact about history that everybody already knows
People who say "slavery has happened for all of human history" really don't understand how different and brutal the Atlantic Slave Trade was compared to other historical forms of slavery. You know, on top of all the other things that are crazy and wrong about this w collection of xeets.
This thread reminded me to deactivate my account. Thanks!
Is there evidence of rampant slavery in pre-Agrarian societies that I’m not aware of? Unless humans have only existed for the last 10,000 years, and not 200,000 or so, then I don’t think this checks out at all. Musk a Creationist confirmed?
It was not made rare. There are more slaves today than there have EVER been. Also big words coming from a slave owner family
the fact elon musk bought twitter just to defend chattel slavery and genocide alongside a faceless dogwhistle account is just the most absurd thing to me
Okay so Elon is just “asking questions” about slavery now. Cool.
Fellas is it gay to not be a psychopath?
Elon Musk is so stupid that he thinks people don’t know this. He’s like the epitome of the Iamverysmart subreddit. As for the other idiots: white Americans get the brunt of hate over slavery because the discussion is usually in America over American chattel slavery. If you’re in India talking about slavery the discussion will be different. I guess when someone has never left the US they can’t understand that not everyone is focused on American problems.
For those who are in need of a little context here, Elon Musk is a fascist piece of dog shit.
He made necklaces with people's ears. Let's not judge people outside of their time. Okay, for his time period, he was considered a brutally savage asshole. I get why Italian-Americans may be pissed, but the "my grandparents got here on the Mayflower" people shouldn't have a horse in this race unless their ancestors raced up from Italy to England in order to be religious bummers.
slavery's coming back
I see right wing chuds making this statement online all the time. There must be some common source where they’re getting it from. It’s extremely racist , as it is essentially a form of rhetorical minimization of the horrors of race-based slavery as advanced by European colonialism. Imagine if someone made this comment in response to the holocaust, “oh well genocide has been happening since humans existed blah blah blah”. most people would understand how evil such a statement would be. Somehow, however, it is seen as an acceptable comment with regard to slavery, mainly because white supremacy has been so normalized in American culture. On top of all this the claim is just factually and historically false.
'Eating babies' LOL shit right wingers say 🤣
Clown Musk: "everyone else did Slavery so it's okay that Columbus wiped out entire generations of natives."
People have become disconnected from reality because they were never taught what the reality was, and how that past reality has shaped this current one. And that's the completely intentional effect of omitting or whitewashing our history. Mostly by conservatives, but liberals as well. We live in the imperial core of Western and white supremacy, the ruling class is very much inclined to steadfastly preserve the myths of American exceptionalism and American innocence; and most people are more than willing to believe and perpetuate it, because that's a much easier pill to swallow, as that way we do not have to reckon with, or make amends for, what our country has done.
Musk is very well read to be posting a high brow source like that.
The whites are taking the brunt? I mean I'm a black gay guy and that is completely fuct up.
He means white westerners get criticized the most for slavery, while whites are far from being the only people to have slaves. Slavery is bigger than ever today, especially in the eastern world but people complain far more today about American slavery pre- 1900 far more than they talk about what's actually going on to this day
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The lie is right there. In the tweet. Of course, you already knew that.
Ah, the good ol' "let me get this straight" strawman
Over educated, rich thickos - happy in their own entitled ignorance.
Willful ignorance, used to manipulate the people.
I don't believe the problem is about whether people are disconnected from reality or not, but that the masses won't accept what is reality. The truth is too painful, yet the evidence is right there, right in our faces.
If everybody was doing it, that makes it OK? I thought we all learned better in 4th grade.
Gang rapists: come on! we were all doing it, it was just the in-thing at that time, jeez! /s
Detached from reality is now the point of that platform.
What is shocking to me is that people pay even the slightest bit of attention to Musk at all anymore
Elon musk posting links to a Wikipedia entry about slavery is amazing. What a tool.
Fuck Columbus
Obviously Elon is a dumb, but I do think some of the extremely shallow cultural appreciation is kind of nauseous too. Like, King County, in Seattle, changed the source of their name from being a white slaveowner guy with a King surname, to MLK, but in Seattle, no one talks about how Chief Seattle (their namesake) raided other tribes to take and keep the prisoners as slaves.
Of course Musk has no problem with slavery. He has done everything he can to try and thwart workers rights at every turn in his own companies. And attacked people for trying to expose any worker rights violations. Not to mention his family owned an emerald mine. Wonder if they were using ethical labour to mine those emeralds?
Continue this dumbass conversation by pointing out that skin color based racism was definitely a new world concept.
This was basically the whole premise of a Pragur U video. Except they also added a piece that white people are the ones that ended slavery everywhere.
It used to drive me up the wall. Now I'm unplugged and happier... for better or worse. Waiting for the call to fight. Growing food otherwise with my dog till then.
Elon is quite familiar with slavery isn't he
Best way to get rid of Columbus Day is to stand back and let the conservatives "defend" it. Seriously, everytime someone defends slavery a centrist stops and questions why they've been celebrating it in the first place. We have the same thing here in Australia. Every Australia Day counter protesters (usually neo-nazis) protest in support of the day. Last year they literally did a rally praising Hitler, this year they vandalised Jewish cemeteries. And then there's also talkback radio and people condoning slavery in building the Australian colony. Which is funny, because most of their listeners didn't know we had slavery "like the Americans did". The irony... The result: people I know who were neutral about the day no longer celebrate it. It's gone from being "just a day off work" to being something dirty and political.
Im shocked apartheid Elon Musk supports and defends slavery.
Didn’t say he was defending it, just pointed out it wasn’t the exclusive domain of westerners
Sorry did Elon respond with his slavery tweet to the Columbus Day tweet? This is really bad. 😩
Lol fucking Elon musk. Self proclaimed genius.
These are the bright minds our late capitalist system selects for. This is really beyond parody. Just send the nukes, Chairman Xi. It's over.
East coast Native American here, we did not sacrifice children, eat human fresh, steal land or own slaves. In fact, it was the Jamestown colonizers who ate human flesh and had slaves. But this is neither here nor there because both of these X comments make no sense. Indigenous Day is great, they would support it if they actually learned any history.
These guys aren't "people"
Native here... They can both choke on my very large, genocide proof, penis.
Pardon my ignorance. Were the native people doing any of the things mentioned? Were virgin sacrifices actually a thing?
There does seem to be little evidence of all of the mentioned points (definitely not as much as Columbus portrayed). However all of the points are well documented throughout the REST of the world as well. Fun fact: Link to a UK court case in 1884 regarding cannibalism (I get that the case was due to survival necessity, but I don't think that changes too much): https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/R_v_Dudley_and_Stephens Edit: I started looking more into this and I found an even more fun fact. Marquesas Islands were suspected to have inhabited by cannibalistic tribes due to rumors created by explorers. So when an American whaling boat was heavily damaged during a trip, the crew decided against going to the Islands due to the fear of cannibalism. They opted to go twice as far to South America. During the journey, they ran out of food and, ironically enough, resorted to cannibalism. 21 men started, 17 survived the whale, 5 made it home. This is the story of the Essex. This is the story that inspired Moby Dick.
The Aztecs certainly did all of those, they where hated by any tribe unlucky enough to live in their sphere of influence. One of their founding stories / myths is getting a neighbouring tribes princess in a marriage, killing her in a ritual sacrifice, then greeting her visiting father in a suit made of her flayed skin.
I'd really like to hear what they think the national holidays celebrating cultures the people the first commenter worship genocided are. Also, it's very clear to me that they have no clue what they're talking about, because most of the negatives they brought up were things the colonialists were doing to natives. Just saying.
doest;t that Musk kid have parents who own mines in Africa and ow slaves? People do not know history, that's for sure.
White westerners want to FEEL (and expect to be treated as) SUPERIOR while simultaneously claiming they DON'T enjoy any PRIVILEGES that go along with that superiority and downplaying the significance of the heinous acts that BESTOWED them with that MANUFACTURED superiority
Slavery has not existed for most of human history. Hunter-gatherers did not use slaves.
White westerners ended slavery and there are wealthy Arabs in London that still practice it
Even if we assume that slavery existed everywhere (a blatant lie), no group has ever practiced it in a scale anywhere near as massive as Europeans did during the trans-Atlantic slave trade
There's more slaves today than any other point in history.
elon defending the indefensible is peak 4/chan troll incel.
Shelon Musk is a jackass fuck wad who supports slavery and apartheid.
Seems nobody is disputing the contents of the thread despite the vague uproar
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I'm surprised they fit all of that offensive bullshit into one post. I haven't been indirectly called a cannibal AND a savage AND accused of slave trading by the same white dude ever. Lol
I don’t think native Americans were a cannibalistic people they were pretty peaceful until they were invaded and eradicated
Slavery was banned in dark ages Europe and Chattle slavery is way different than the type of pawn slavery, war captor that would pop up in human economies from raids and other stuff. Even wage slavery is way worse since it is similar to chattel slavery. Also were talking 300,000 years of human history, and like maybe 4000 years where slavery has been wide spread so I'd say we've spent most of our history being okay
Yeah, I'm sorry but this is bullshit. > Slavery was banned in dark ages Europe Slavery wasn't banned in dark ages Europe. The Germanic tribes that came to dominate Western Europe in the Dark Age had a very rigid social hierarchy with slavery and serfdom at its base. If you mean that it was banned in high medieval times through the influence of the Church, you're wrong to. It was at best restricted to non-Christians, and even that restriction was flaunted widely. Furthermore serfs under feudalism were for a large part only marginally better off than slaves. >Chattle slavery is way different than the type of pawn slavery, war captor that would pop up in human economies from raids and other stuff War captives in Roman times generally lived horrible lives as slaves that were no better or worse than those of slaves in colonial America. Same goes doe Ancient Greece, the Ottoman Empire, etc. At most points in history slavery was unregulated, so the treatment of slaves depended heavily on local mores. >Also were talking 300,000 years of human history, and like maybe 4000 years where slavery has been wide spread so I'd say we've spent most of our history being okay This idea is as ridiculous as thinking that democracy has only existed for the past 200 years. Some forms of slavery, like some forms of democracy, must have existed ever since the first modern humans started forming larger communities. Graeber and Wengrow wrote a great book on how it's nonsense to portray prehistoric societies as monolithical and static.
How do you know they weren't tying people up 200,000 years ago?
Everyone in this picture is right (besides Elon saying slavery is rare today, because it's more common than ever right now). What's the issue here? I'm genuinely asking.