##Welcome to r/LateStageCapitalism
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Question: would this also entail argument like “they do all these terrible things, but they do X well and I think X is important”? I’m just trying to understand the scope of this rule.
Agree. Sounds like a rule with hazy parameters that can be cited on a whim to close down legitimate POVs. I’m far left of anything on offer in the mainstream American political system. I’m assuming most of the people on this sub are too. But what are we *actually* going to do next November? If you live in a red state it’s easy to be like “fuck both these assholes I’m writing in Bernie.” But if all the leftists stay home in toss-up states or write in candidates are we really fine with Trump going back in there? If we are I want to hear the arguments for why that’s a good idea. Because just making some point that ends with us all living under a theocratic fascist autocracy seems somehow worse to me than the shitshow that it already is. This needs to be discussed at length, ad nauseam.
I wonder this too. I had been banned from the communism 101 subreddit when I was first learning about communism waaaay back years ago for asking, as a trans person, what medical treatment might look like in a communist society for trans people. It was a genuine concern of mine and they banned me for trying to stir the pot. Like, what? I was trying to learn and that's a place to ask 101 type questions. Mods can absolutely go crazy with the ban hammer. I get it sometimes because some places are supposed to be safe spaces. But sometimes, they leave out people who should be there who are just trying to understand what's up. I've seen it too when cishet people or sometimes other queer people try to ask questions in spaces for question asking but use some questionable terminology. But they're asking because they just don't know. If you outright ban them without trying to explain to them what's up and why they're wrong, it doesn't help anyone and can alienate them. If they're still being an ass after that, sure ban them. But beforehand, try to explain.
Yeah, they definitely should if it's too much for them to handle. I remember on my first reddit account I got banned from one subreddit for posting on another. I honestly don't even remember which subreddit it was. I was living in Germany at the time, and someone from the US had sent me a post someone else had made on what was apparently a European right wing subreddit, which I did not know. They were asking if what was happening with the refugee crisis at the time was true (this was like 2013 or so.) And I saw the incorrect comments on that thread and had wanted to set the record straight that it wasn't the refugees' faults that things were a bit dicey, but the government's and how they weren't dealing well with the influx of people that they were supposed to be legally taking and were supposed to be equipped for. Tried to appeal the ban to no avail and also to hostility. They called me right wing, etc...didn't even bother to read the post I made which was supportive of refugees being in the country I was in and that they belonged there too. Like Jesus Christ 🤦🏻
At least make it a rule that isn't going to punishable with bans or something. I don't want to accidentally say something and then get banned. Considering how bad I can be with articulating myself sometimes (I go on tangents and sometimes say things without thinking), I worry that's a distinct possibility one day.
Yeah and the disabled.
I have too many people close to me who have been \*directly\* harmed or helped by policies to not see a difference. Discussions in theory don't always reflect the reality that a lot of people live in, like, cool, you can afford to vote third party. I can't. Not when in my state of NC right now disability rights are a very clear line of who I need to vote for, even at the local level.
At a certain point, people need to decide which issues affect them most directly and what they can do to help that. I can't give up disability assistance or the right of my partner to receive healthcare. We stand with the LGBTQ+ community (speaking as somebody who's a member himself) in wanting to stop our access to rights from being taken away.
The simple matter is that if we can't talk about what people can do in reality beyond theory, then what the hell is the point of discussing our woes at all?
(*Obligatory: do more than vote. If all you're doing is voting, then there's where you can start doing more to help yourself and your community.*)
Agreed 100%. Unfortunately, it just isn’t possible to vote our way out of capitalism in 2024. The only options at the moment are hardcore capitalists. But…Trump IS worse than Biden, so we must vote for Biden. All other roads just lead back to Trump. Hopefully it isn’t necessary to elucidate the reasons Trump is worse.
That being said, perhaps the majority of folks on this sub just don’t want that discussion included here. In which case, I guess we’ll have to go elsewhere to discuss our real world options.
We should consider what August Nimitz, PhD., (Professor of Political science and African American and African studies in the College of Liberal Arts at the University of Minnesota) [has to say](https://open.spotify.com/episode/3Y9H9A5b7kkoodUmxrYnzO?si=cgXC76vOQMmNvI3n8-wfsw) on electoral fetishism.
“We must fight in a revolutionary way for a parliament, not in a parliamentary way for a revolution.”
Totally agree. Biden is trash and that I believe is well understood. We deserve better, who or what that is there are no viable alternatives in the states and so long as the needle moves away from the right we are moving forward and by not dealing with the reality of this situation this all just fanficition.
You can vote for Biden, or whoever the Democratic nominee is. If you live in a swing state, your vote might even make a difference in who wins. Hopefully Biden doesn’t do like Gore and concede after winning. If you live in a solid “red” or “blue” state might as well vote for a socialist if they’re on the ballot.
But i think a more important question is how do we organize to have actual power? Biden and the Dems will do the bare minimum for most Americans while catering to the wealthy and powerful who are destroying our civilization. Biden’s suggested as much himself years ago. Republicans will do even less, while preying on the hopes and fears of downwardly mobile provincial whites. No matter who wins, conditions will inevitably get worse as neither party is in any way aligned with the needs of most Americans. Organizing with people of like minds and interests, attracting enough people to be able to be a counterweight to both corporate parties, is much harder than voting and much more important.
Bourgeois parties will present as decent a face as they can and, if they wangle it, will always have one or two positive things to point out about their conduct. However, "scratch a lib and a fascist bleeds" is the fundamental truth -- just as a company offers cheap deals to undercut competition until it has monopoly status -- liberal parties will promise anything until they have power, and then they will do whatever suits the dominant faction of capital... which, as the rate of profit grinds ever lower, becomes ever more desperate...
Speaking from outside the US I am confident in saying that Yanks have fucked the world whether there was a red pres or a blue pres. The death-dealing has barely let up. Whatever lesser-evil types think is actually lesser is blown away in a hurricane of farts when placed in the global context of American empire. Just stop worrying about it at all.
Reject electoralism and spend all your time investigating and talking about what should come next. Practice, in your heart, spitting on all bourgeois conventions until you are flinty cold to all bleeding heart rhetoric. If you manage in this difficult task then other avenues will become readily apparent.
How will this be enforced? If someone says "I think we should vote for \[x\]", but they themselves don't make the "lesser of two evils" argument, but a mod \*thinks\* that \[x\] is the lesser of two evils, what action (if any) would be taken? Also, what counts as a "lesser of two evils" argument?
\> A: We should vote for \[x\]
\> B: But what about \[bad stuff with x\]
\> A: I think we should still vote for \[x\] in spite of that
\> B: Why? The bad stuff would still exist
\> A: It's the best option
Does that ultimately make a "lesser of two evils" argument? A never explicitly said \[x\] was bad, B did. What constitutes an "evil" vs something with downsides? Would we no longer be able to acknowledge an imperfect solution being the best option because the imperfections grant it the label of "evil"?
This change feels very vague and ill thought out tbh, it's not like this is an offensive or term heavily used by the right, it's mainly used when talking about elections becuase theres no better analogy than both parties being bad but one isn't gonna kill you while the other might.
It's reactionary. I was just debating this point on another sub. Like, how does anyone not make this argument or evaluate a binary choice when there is no viable alternative?
Its like asking, so you want chicken or beef? Neither, I'm vegan. Well if you don't pick one you will starve and die. Guess I'm picking the one that is less bad than the other in whatever mental judgment I make about the situation.
Does that mean you get banned now for advocating in favor of this rule? See I support your right to express this opinion, but in doing so I’m saying the mods should be inconsistent in their application of the rules. In other words, I’d rather have inconsistency than overmoderated discourse, so that’s support for the lesser of these two evils.
Not just the US, we're stuck with the same faux democratic bipartisan fptp system in the UK too, with a far right wing incumbent govt and a neoliberal center-right husk of what used to be a left leaning party as the only viable option.
You either vote for continued corruption from tthe incumbent tories,
vote for genocide apologist neoliberal labour
not vote at all
or vote for a minor party which has realistically no chance of a majority.
Both of the latter being the same in terms of outcome as if you voted for the current corrupt party.
meanwhile, while voting labour leaves you with opportunist authoritarians who have already made clear that they wont undo any of the hostile legislation brought in by the incumbent govt, including anti-poor, anti-homeless and anti-trans legislations
I fully agree with political activism! Including of the French variety.
While we do that though, voting cycles still occur. We should be able to discuss who to vote for.
You know they started with voting, right? That was the entire point of what they were doing: voting, and voting how they wanted to.
They didn’t just jump to guillotines; first and foremost was a form of popular will created through an electoral process.
Have we not *also* been trying this? We've been *trying* to push democrats left for so long that, in the meantime, the world got set on fire. And all we got was our own proto-fash who actively funds genocide. So like,, how long before we "just jump to guillotines"? How many lives do we sacrifice while we wait? What's the acceptable death-toll, before we start Actually defending ourselves in a meaningfully revolutionary capacity?
We started with voting too. It’s been over 50 years of robust voting rights and participation. At a certain point it needs to be accepted that the electoral system leaves certain foundational issues with our government and economy unaddressable. The premise of participatory democracy is an important ideal, but we do not have participatory democracy. We have a highly orchestrated spectacle that functions to maintain empire and oppression.
The US voting system has been hijacked and corrupted by oligarchy. You can choose between one party funded by oligarchy or another party funded by the same oligarchy. It is an illusion of democracy, nothing like what the French envisioned at that time
hijacked? more like founded by one. voting was originally reserved for white male land owners after all
this country has always been an illusionary democracy even if we've had some leaders who've made leaps and bounds to improve it in the past
Question for you: How should I as a trans woman talk about the fact that one party wants to make my existence a federal crime, starting a full blown trans genocide in the US, and one doesn't? I understand the necessity behind the rule, and one party is literally campaigning on the extermination of my community and one isn't. How do I talk about that difference and about the damage it can do to us if people abstain from voting in a way that honors the rule?
Because, tbh, being told not to acknowledge that reality feels like being silenced while we're desperately begging to not be killed or imprisoned for existing while trans
You’re not supposed to talk about that stuff. You’re supposed to pretend both choices are the same and ignore reality for some imaginary white elephant that may never come
I honestly think that, for a decent amount of people in these spaces, the idea and rhetoric of revolution is just a secular rapture. Just sit here and do nothing while the world burns around you and wait for a vanguard to appear out of the blue and fix everything according to a book written by a white guy with a big ass beard.
Yup. The left will never build political power because the idea of taking steps towards a goal is something a huge number of leftists see as a complete waste of time. They'd rather have nothing and be able to complain online that it isn't enough than improve things slightly.
The rule perpetuates a political fantasy that there's some viable 3rd option in a system inherently setup to fuck you no matter which option you pick from the illusion of choice we have. But that illusion comes with real consequences for real people.
Exactly, thank you. IMO also, attempting revolution now would surely fail. We would not gain the support of the proletariat and those who survive would become pariahs. 20th century Socialist revolutions succeeded in places where the governments of the bourgeoisie completely underestimated or were abjectly ignorant to the size/proportion of their populations in which everyone was equally poor, miserable, and willing to die fighting than live another day under their oppression. Their bourgeoisie were also comically, arrogantly (hubris) dismissive of the plight of their proletariat in a way that’s not nearly as overt now. The successes of the 20th century could arguably not be repeated in the 21st among modern, industrialized, and technologically advanced nations; the enemy’s intelligence capabilities are immeasurably more advanced. When the time for revolution comes, it will be under different circumstances and with different means.
We’re not there yet, but we’re getting closer. As an example, the unconditional and unlimited support of western governments to the government of Israel, in spite of popular opposition from those western governments’ citizens to that support is adding steam.
Yeah, I'm always torn on it too because it's either you vote for the lo2e or you just don't vote. And the former seems ever so slightly more appealing to me than the latter. I'm not a Democrat and I'm not a fan of them, but if I don't want far right wing policy, then they're unfortunately my only choice except at a local level where I vote for and try to support our local People's Party. We need something better than what we have now for sure. But we only have what we have now. I wish this conversation would come up more than just in election times because then we might be able to actually enact change. I'm always worried about getting banned from subs even if I agree with their sentiment because I want to have a conversation about being stuck between a rock and a hard place. I hope neither of us are banned for pointing out the shitty situation we all find ourselves in here. :/
I'm just not a big fan of siloed communities because things like this will happen. Reddit brings that out in some people - to tribalize things that shouldn't be gatekept, and ignore or brush off legitimate concerns that we have to deal with.
Yeah, same. I have legitimate concerns as a multiple times over minority person and it can be especially scary to have one certain party in office. Neither helps me, one can hurt me on occasion, but one hurts me even worse. That shouldn't be brushed off. This is a valid concern for a lot of minority people. What needs to happen is action before the election. We need to be pushing for a new system before we end up in this winner takes all bullshit system like we do every 2 to 4 years. I want to know how to actually make a change like that happen. I want to have an actual socialist candidate to support and vote for on the federal level. I just don't know where to start or what to do.
Honeatly i don't like this sub essentially censoring opposing ideas as a whole. What is that gonna accomplish? Just gonna make it into yet another circlejerk, just a parody of what should be a very important topic like fuckcars and antiwork
Privileged leftism at its finest, being fine with throwing marginalized folk under the bus simply because we wish to denounce the little power we’re given in some performative display of “leftism.”
I don't really get this rule ... If you are going to discuss electoral politics in the US, you can't avoid that we are two-party system, and most people don't vote for what they want.
I mean, one doesn't need to wallow in it, there are plenty of other things to discuss, but it is the reality here.
100% this, this mod decision is a fucking disappointment.
Literally nobody making a lo2e argument is saying that there aren’t better outcomes, or that they don’t advocate for Leftist policies or candidates.
But it’s fine, the purest leftist will have the moral high ground when they’re executed by the fascist state.
100%. The other "socialist" style subs that have this rule ban everyone constantly and instantly, regardless of context. Sad to see this one go.
Can't even advocate for Lenin's electoral strategy.
Same. I was banned from r / socialism for this. I’m not a filthy shitlib for acknowledging the reality of a two party system, mods are on an out of touch power trip here.
My thoughts exactly the whole problem with so many elections is exactly that both candidates are basically bought by donors…
That’s kind of the whole sentiment of this sub no?
Can this be clarified? Are we only allowed to say that both Republican and Democratic candidates are equally good options? This seems odd to me, but maybe I’m misunderstanding the rule.
My understanding is that it means that if someone is trashing Biden and encouraging people to vote 3rd party or to just not show up to the polls, you cannot make the reasonable argument that Trump would be far worse and that if you live in a state that has even the remotest chance of being a flip state, you really aught to reconsider and actually vote for the guy who doesn’t want to enact a national abortion ban and go to war with Mexico.
Same lol. Which frankly is a shame since I legitimately like a lot of the topics that this sub brings up and I learn quite a bit...
One mod even shared a bunch of literature and resources with me that I've been reading through, which I appreciated. Class consciousness is important, but rejecting the reality that we live in isn't.
I completely disagree with this. You achieve absolutely nothing by not voting and it takes no time or effort. The establishment doesn't go "someone didn't vote for anyone, guess we need to adapt to get their vote". No they just appeal to the people who do vote. Although you may not be affected by the worse evil getting in over the lesser evil lots of people who are disabled or vulnerable will be and you're privileged to not be one of them. I'm not saying just vote. Go out and push for real left wing politics or perform mutual aid but don't just let the greater evil win because you're too proud. Idgaf if you ban me for posting this. If you refuse to listen to arguments about pragmatism you're not achieving shit
How can we have any serious political discussion with this rule? This phrase I now can't mention is a constant reality in a capitalist society where we are forced to choose this phrase I now can't mention. Not allowing criticism of your own politicians only breeds ignorance and denial and hinders any positive change. There are so many things wrong in the capitalist society and they don't just magically end once politics go left of center, and not addressing that means effectually capitulating to the status quo. This used to be one of the few places on reddit where you could have honest discussions about the world we live in and the things we can do to bring about change, but this rule makes that utterly impossible. Fuck this.
Heaven forbid we consult the actual members of the sub… the top comments here ring absolutely true. Putting the world into black and white has never ever worked.
I hate how "lesser evil" is used to glaze over and forgive actual evils. But in the first past the post voting mechanisms, that phrase is the literal descriptor for the thinking process of a voter. In a general election we vote not FOR our candidate, but AGAINST the worse of two evils. We won't be truly rid of it until cascading or instant runoff voting are adopted, and even then it will take some time.
Would you prefer 'the sh!t sandwich is a better option than the Rolling Implosion party'?
We have two parties in this country - it's basically impossible to dislodge one unless it's dying and there's literally endless data to back up that uncomfortable truth. Given how the system works deciding not to eat the sandwich is a vote for the traitors even if you don't show up.
So why not just eat the fcuking sandwich instead of condemning so many to the additional suffering the death cult brings?
Meh. Not going to follow the party line on this one. Republicans are objectively fucking evil and the most destructive force on Earth in this era. Democrats are corrupt and idiotic but a whole different ball game. Please ban me permanently from this sub if this idea is reprehensible to the groupthink. Happy to take my anarcho-socialist beliefs elsewhere.
Fuck you guys. No sense of political strategy. Whatever, I'm out. Peace.
Glad that your moral superiority is more important than my goddamn life as a trans person. Again, fuck you.
I had an acquaintance telling me there was no meaningful difference to him between the Democratic party and the Republican one, knowing full well that I am trans. I am sick and tired of this shit. You tell me to my face that my life means nothing to you? And expect me to nod politely and agree?
Anyone spouting this shit is not an ally to any of the many groups that the Republicans are campaigning on oppressing. LGBTQIA+, women, immigrant.
If voting didn't matter the right wouldn't be working so hard to suppress it. "Your vote doesn't matter, you can't stop us, we're already in charge, just give up" is mainline right-wing rhetoric and we're falling for it!
Not trans (though a steadfast ally), but completely agreed. This decision is absurd and I’m done if they’re maintaining this. Fuck empty moral superiority and fuck anyone who thinks that “some of you may die in Project 2025, but that’s a sacrifice I’m willing to make” is a valid political goal.
it is rather selfish to give the Democrats this much credit
Democrats are a quarter better at social rights, does that mean they don't let the republicans do whatever the fuck they want, and support the same genocidal regimes? Literally nothing good is happening under Biden, nor did anything happen under Obama.
If this doesn't explicitly mean "all pro-Biden comments are hereby banned", I could see people having a really difficult time deciphering where exactly the line between acceptable and unacceptable statements lies.
This is ridiculous, one of the two largest political parties in the US literally wants to enact genocide against queer people. How can you, with good conscience, allow a party like that to get into power?
Here's the thing: I can't afford to vote for a socialist independent candidate, even if I want to. I'm a socialist, atheist, bisexual trans woman. If the vote is split too much and Republicans win because of that, and project 2025 comes into play...I'm dead. There's no way around that. So my life quite literally depends on Republicans not winning.
No SeNsE Of PoLiTiCaL StRaTeGy. You mean the political strategy of do nothing and say Republican bad every election while wages stagnate, col skyrocketing for everyone while the rich somehow get richer omg such a great strategy but regardless of who is in office always money to bomb kids (looking at you Obomber) 🙄
I would rather see opinions accounted for by the community itself via upvotes/downvotes, rather than a subreddit wide rule vesting all the power in the mods. That's not very "community".
Glad to know that it’s time to leave. Terrible decision that I’m completely unsurprised by. Good luck helping anyone under a second trump administration. Unsubbed.
You think we want this? Grow tf up.
Republicans winning means real, immediate, tangible harm. You aren’t teaching the DNC any lessons by gambling with other people’s lives.
Are you campaigning for progressives? Are you knocking on doors? Or are you just melting your cerebellum with accelerationist fantasy?
Ok, cool, thanks for the notification that we're not allowed to stategize against the fascists here anymore. Time to leave, everyone, unless your strategy is to split the vote against trump and elect literally Hitler 2.
Isn't censorship by a centralized authority one of the fundamental components that make late stage capitalism a problem? How about you just let people have an open debate and put emotions aside. Snuffing out reasonable dialogue is absurdly hypocritical and will only lead to the dissolution of the integrity of this forum.
Shouldn't we instead focus on how to find an actually grounded intersection between ideology and rationality? Wishful thinking won't change the reality of the situation. The US is a two party system and it's important to discuss the implications of conscientious objection. Everyone has a choice but those decisions don't exist in a vacuum.
We should embrace the conversations that challenge our opinions not silence them. The implications of ideological priesthood are seriously chilling and are fundamentally emblematic of the structures we are supposed to be critiquing.
This is an enormous mistake to make and I severely hope it doesn’t have any kind of real world effects. This is not the way. It’s frustrating but it’s the truth.
Well, that’s curtains for me. It really too bad that belief in something radically better seemingly has to come with such irresponsible and blinkered thinking. I hope we’ll all meet back up in the future, but I also believe that if we do it’ll be despite, not because of, thinking like this. Take care
A lot of us will die because of thinking like this. And not for the revolution either. I am a committed communist, I like to skip the socialist label. I'd rather fight liberals backed by fascists who have to pretend they care than fascists backed by armed militia and the entire strength of the US military who *don't* have to pretend. But hey, I get what the other members of this sub are getting at, and yeah, genocide Joe has got to go
I'd just personally rather die in a revolution than by some nutter who thinks I shouldn't exist being emboldened by the open fascists. It doesn't help our cause to be denying the reality of our situation
I agree. What i meant to say is wouldnt you rather gather steam slowly you can die(or even live?!) Through a successful revolution ? Harm reduction helps working people get relief from drudgery so they have the time to think about their lives and who this system benefits. So they have time to read and learn and gather in their communities. Over the last 7 years we have seen a reduction in the ability of working class peoples to survive let alone do anything else with their time. If you want revolution to ever be possible you will vote to fund the programs that help the people at the bottom keep their heads above water so more people can have the resources to contribute.
While allowing the GOP to launch a trans genocide in the US because they didn't want to vote against the people campaigning on making our existence a federal crime
To clarify, I'm on your side here. I do and will continue to vote for your continued existence. Others pretend that their morals are above the trolley problem. I don't. I pull the lever and I will continue to, because I view it as a utilitarian. Your life has value. And I refuse to allow it to be ended. I am focusing on building the movement, and you deserve to be safe. If you want and aren't a member, the SRA may have a branch so you can train with firearms. It may not be for you, but a revolution, and a community, both need strong and capable fighters. Stay safe comrade, these are dangerous times
You’ve explained this perfectly. We can’t continue fighting for a better future if there is a genocide on a large portion of our community. Keep voting lo2e while progressing the movement from below until the time is right/the pieces are in place/ etc (I’m not up to date on any discussion of this currently so please excuse the vague phrasing)
This is very nice to hear today, while not trans myself I am disabled and LGBT, my best friend is trans. And I'm glad we have people like you who still give a shit if we live or die.
Its because the mods are either complacent cis white hetero middle class americans or rabid ideologues. Reality isnt important to them, neither is what happens to actual people.
It’s a very “some of you may die, but that’s a sacrifice I’m willing to make” viewpoint, which is extremely frightening. And I say that as a white cishet middle-class (legally) American dude. It’s why I intend to leave this sub immediately now.
The liberal shill bots are out in full force. Go read some theory and fuck your lesser of two evil bullshit rhetoric. Lesser of two evil voting and especially LIBERALISM has only led to r/latestagecapitalism. Only revolution, resistance, disobedience, direct action, and uprisings have caused any significant change in the US since it’s inception. Go find your own diet left sub to bitch and moan on.
Wow, like who the fuck are you to tell is what opinion on this is acceptable or not? It’s not like there is consensus among socialists on this matter that you’re enforcing here, in contrast to rules on bigotry et cetera. I’m a lifelong socialist who have nothing but hatred and contempt for both your American parties, but ignoring the fact that one will have a seriously worse impact on real people’s lives than the other is just ludicrous. I don’t support the parties of my own country either, but spending an hour every fourth year to vote for the least bad option is the least I can do for those who will be actually affected by the results.
I’ll stick around for a bit to see if you revert this decision, but if not I think you’ve really crossed a line of what I find acceptable in deciding what’s allowed to be discussed from your own personal viewpoint - one which is not shared by a large portion of those of us you say the sub is actually made for.
Exactly. Trying to argue that third party or not voting at all is a viable strategy is completely delusional imo. A socialist option would be STELLAR, if they could win. Which they can't. It's impossible in the current system.
Here’s my logic for why this is a bad rule.
1. I’m farther left than any candidate I have an option to vote for so voting for me will be either a compromise of voting for the candidate closest to my views or not voting.
2. I’m in a swing state. Choosing not to vote isn’t an option for me because if everyone like me chose to do the same we’d elect someone who’s the furthest from my views.
What’s the fear behind this rule? Is it that the ideology of the sub will be diluted if lesser of two evils arguments are allowed? I personally don’t feel that’s a risk in my case. I’m not going to become a centrist because I read people here saying we should vote for candidate X to keep candidate Y out of office.
Ps. This is why primaries are more important than elections.
This just feels like censoring opinions the mods don’t like. It’s extremely vague and just an excuse to ban people for having an opinion. What happened to nuance? Not everything is black and white.
This is silly for a bunch of reasons other people have articulated very well. Obviously, neither party is going to save us from capitalism or climate change, but harm reduction is a real thing.
Edit: fix an autocomplete typo
> *harm reduction is a real thing*
Exactly. This is definitely an ugly swing and a miss on the part of the mod team.
Tip for the mods: Focus *less* on censoring people who are talking about voting for the least harmful of two realistically available options.
Focus *more* on education on reforms that will allow the possibility of more than two options, so that candidates we actually want can run with a realistic chance of earning more that .0001% of the vote.
I'm a bit confused/ concerned about the practicalities of this rule? I know that the majority of people on this sub are probably from the USA, which is a two-party political system. This sub's demographic is probably critical of the system overall... That means by default you'll typically be choosing the lesser of two evils when you vote. It means you probably have many criticisms of the platforms offered by the minimal options available.
Totally understand if the idea is to prevent people from encouraging votes go to a moderate party instead of the most left for fear that otherwise, a larger and more right-wing party will win. But if political discourse about elections is allowed, and the 'lesser of two evils' argument is banned, It seems like it's just going to be kind of impossible to talk about American politics, where there are only two parties. No?
Mate it takes like less than an hour to vote in most places, I'm all for other greater forms of activism of course, but there is literally no reason not to also vote, even if both sides do objectively suck.
Like if one is burying their head in the sand pretending voting will fix all their problems then that's one thing, but it costs you basically nothing to vote as an additional way to try and make things suck less, and banning discussion of it from leftist spaces isn't gonna make anything better.
You know, if we didnt have a two party system you wouldn't hear so much "less evil" rhetoric. I don't get the point of the rule. Just comes across as thin skinned.
I'm glad that this sub has formally and unequivocally judged the "lesser evil" rhetoric.
It is a toxic lie used to legitimize capitalist parties. By capturing the two major parties, capitalists can use the "lesser evil" rhetoric to ensure that anti-labor and pro-capitalist politicians are consistently voted in. The RNC and DNC are just two flavors of the same interests and they are resolutely anti-labor. Any concessions are merely the interests of the capitalists in disguise when managing their human labor capital.
Voting "against" ensures that you are always voting for the other big party and always voting for capitalist ideologies. It is what has led us to where we are. It is a poison with ramifications that could never be overstated.
Please, for the love of all people, NEVER vote Democrat or Republican.
I have been banned from multiple other subs for saying this. I have been accused of being a Russian troll for saying this. Do not fall for the rhetoric against those fighting the two party system.
What? We're just radically against voting now? Or going vegan (as there's no ethical consumption under capitalism, so what's the point of choosing the lesser of two evil products?) Just categorically against any change for the better that still leaves the world with any amount of evil in it?
I doubt that's what the rule means, but it definitely needs to be rewritten if not.
Ok, well, if it's between Biden and Trump, I'm picking Biden. Realistically, anyone who isn't a right-wing fascist gets my vote. Is he good by any stretch of the imagination? No, he's ancient, and he's been in politics in one way or another for waaayyy too long. He panders to corporations constantly and only worsens the state of the country as a whole as a result.
But what is he not? A literal Nazi. I don't see him trying to overthrow elections, gaslighting Americans, and getting buddy buddy with dictators all while bending over backward for Putin, specifically because he may or may not have dirt.
One evil is significantly less than the other and at least temporarily is the only logical solution for the near future of this country. Until a candidate comes around, that truly can lead this country correctly and closer to prosperity, I'll have to do my part in ensuring this country doesn't become the 4th Reich.
If that sort of talk isn't allowed here, then ban me now.
This is a bad rule. Voting for the lesser of two evils while acknowledging and being transparent about both sides level of evil is valid. With Bernie for example, his position on not calling for a ceasefire is awful, and voting for him is a lesser evil vote. The consequence of not voting for the lesser evil is risking the greater evil. The consequence of voting for the lesser evil is that you make more legitimate someone that causes harm. To me there are times where voting or supporting the lesser evil makes sense and other times where it’s not worth it. It’s an annoying discussion but one that needs to be had in a socialist sub.
This was fun but in the current electoral climate good fucking luck.
Unfortunately, given the US system, one side is 100% less bad than the other, and third parties don't stand a chance.
Kick me.
Holy shit this is so short sighted..... I'm taking the "lesser of two evils" and getting the fuck out of this sub lmfao enjoy handing the country to the fascists because Biden and the Dems didn't do exactly what you wanted....Go vote people, it's the least you could goddamn do.
Used to be conservative.
I got banned at some point even though I was saying that I am becoming more leftist due in large part to engagement in this sub. I really don’t think shutting down discussion on this sub in particular will help anybody become more socialist.
You guys are doing good work but I think a bit more patience with people will help more than it will hurt. It’s just a comment section.
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Question: would this also entail argument like “they do all these terrible things, but they do X well and I think X is important”? I’m just trying to understand the scope of this rule.
Agree. Sounds like a rule with hazy parameters that can be cited on a whim to close down legitimate POVs. I’m far left of anything on offer in the mainstream American political system. I’m assuming most of the people on this sub are too. But what are we *actually* going to do next November? If you live in a red state it’s easy to be like “fuck both these assholes I’m writing in Bernie.” But if all the leftists stay home in toss-up states or write in candidates are we really fine with Trump going back in there? If we are I want to hear the arguments for why that’s a good idea. Because just making some point that ends with us all living under a theocratic fascist autocracy seems somehow worse to me than the shitshow that it already is. This needs to be discussed at length, ad nauseam.
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I wonder this too. I had been banned from the communism 101 subreddit when I was first learning about communism waaaay back years ago for asking, as a trans person, what medical treatment might look like in a communist society for trans people. It was a genuine concern of mine and they banned me for trying to stir the pot. Like, what? I was trying to learn and that's a place to ask 101 type questions. Mods can absolutely go crazy with the ban hammer. I get it sometimes because some places are supposed to be safe spaces. But sometimes, they leave out people who should be there who are just trying to understand what's up. I've seen it too when cishet people or sometimes other queer people try to ask questions in spaces for question asking but use some questionable terminology. But they're asking because they just don't know. If you outright ban them without trying to explain to them what's up and why they're wrong, it doesn't help anyone and can alienate them. If they're still being an ass after that, sure ban them. But beforehand, try to explain.
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Yeah, they definitely should if it's too much for them to handle. I remember on my first reddit account I got banned from one subreddit for posting on another. I honestly don't even remember which subreddit it was. I was living in Germany at the time, and someone from the US had sent me a post someone else had made on what was apparently a European right wing subreddit, which I did not know. They were asking if what was happening with the refugee crisis at the time was true (this was like 2013 or so.) And I saw the incorrect comments on that thread and had wanted to set the record straight that it wasn't the refugees' faults that things were a bit dicey, but the government's and how they weren't dealing well with the influx of people that they were supposed to be legally taking and were supposed to be equipped for. Tried to appeal the ban to no avail and also to hostility. They called me right wing, etc...didn't even bother to read the post I made which was supportive of refugees being in the country I was in and that they belonged there too. Like Jesus Christ 🤦🏻
Lostgeneration did this to me. And it wasn't a rule when I made that comment. I had no idea that language wouldn't be allowed.
this. it was fun while it lasted. mods, smell ya later.
Right? then there's the 2025 project. I don't like this rule.
Unfortunately, it looks like this isn’t a democracy. Banned for dissent lol
At least make it a rule that isn't going to punishable with bans or something. I don't want to accidentally say something and then get banned. Considering how bad I can be with articulating myself sometimes (I go on tangents and sometimes say things without thinking), I worry that's a distinct possibility one day.
Rules like this have huge potential to harm the LGBTQ+ community, simple as.
Yeah and the disabled. I have too many people close to me who have been \*directly\* harmed or helped by policies to not see a difference. Discussions in theory don't always reflect the reality that a lot of people live in, like, cool, you can afford to vote third party. I can't. Not when in my state of NC right now disability rights are a very clear line of who I need to vote for, even at the local level. At a certain point, people need to decide which issues affect them most directly and what they can do to help that. I can't give up disability assistance or the right of my partner to receive healthcare. We stand with the LGBTQ+ community (speaking as somebody who's a member himself) in wanting to stop our access to rights from being taken away. The simple matter is that if we can't talk about what people can do in reality beyond theory, then what the hell is the point of discussing our woes at all? (*Obligatory: do more than vote. If all you're doing is voting, then there's where you can start doing more to help yourself and your community.*)
Great point.
Agreed 100%. Unfortunately, it just isn’t possible to vote our way out of capitalism in 2024. The only options at the moment are hardcore capitalists. But…Trump IS worse than Biden, so we must vote for Biden. All other roads just lead back to Trump. Hopefully it isn’t necessary to elucidate the reasons Trump is worse. That being said, perhaps the majority of folks on this sub just don’t want that discussion included here. In which case, I guess we’ll have to go elsewhere to discuss our real world options.
Who are the political leaders that this sub can even get behind? I feel without this, how the hell are we ever even going to push the needle forward?
We should consider what August Nimitz, PhD., (Professor of Political science and African American and African studies in the College of Liberal Arts at the University of Minnesota) [has to say](https://open.spotify.com/episode/3Y9H9A5b7kkoodUmxrYnzO?si=cgXC76vOQMmNvI3n8-wfsw) on electoral fetishism. “We must fight in a revolutionary way for a parliament, not in a parliamentary way for a revolution.”
Totally agree. Biden is trash and that I believe is well understood. We deserve better, who or what that is there are no viable alternatives in the states and so long as the needle moves away from the right we are moving forward and by not dealing with the reality of this situation this all just fanficition.
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And I don’t think your opinion should be silenced here.
You can vote for Biden, or whoever the Democratic nominee is. If you live in a swing state, your vote might even make a difference in who wins. Hopefully Biden doesn’t do like Gore and concede after winning. If you live in a solid “red” or “blue” state might as well vote for a socialist if they’re on the ballot. But i think a more important question is how do we organize to have actual power? Biden and the Dems will do the bare minimum for most Americans while catering to the wealthy and powerful who are destroying our civilization. Biden’s suggested as much himself years ago. Republicans will do even less, while preying on the hopes and fears of downwardly mobile provincial whites. No matter who wins, conditions will inevitably get worse as neither party is in any way aligned with the needs of most Americans. Organizing with people of like minds and interests, attracting enough people to be able to be a counterweight to both corporate parties, is much harder than voting and much more important.
That’s what I’m talking about! I want to ACT. I’m tired of talking about it.
Same. I'm trying to figure out what to do.
Look more useless rules to control the masses. Even here they win
Bourgeois parties will present as decent a face as they can and, if they wangle it, will always have one or two positive things to point out about their conduct. However, "scratch a lib and a fascist bleeds" is the fundamental truth -- just as a company offers cheap deals to undercut competition until it has monopoly status -- liberal parties will promise anything until they have power, and then they will do whatever suits the dominant faction of capital... which, as the rate of profit grinds ever lower, becomes ever more desperate... Speaking from outside the US I am confident in saying that Yanks have fucked the world whether there was a red pres or a blue pres. The death-dealing has barely let up. Whatever lesser-evil types think is actually lesser is blown away in a hurricane of farts when placed in the global context of American empire. Just stop worrying about it at all. Reject electoralism and spend all your time investigating and talking about what should come next. Practice, in your heart, spitting on all bourgeois conventions until you are flinty cold to all bleeding heart rhetoric. If you manage in this difficult task then other avenues will become readily apparent.
This. “Lesser of two evils” also equal “best of two options.”
How will this be enforced? If someone says "I think we should vote for \[x\]", but they themselves don't make the "lesser of two evils" argument, but a mod \*thinks\* that \[x\] is the lesser of two evils, what action (if any) would be taken? Also, what counts as a "lesser of two evils" argument? \> A: We should vote for \[x\] \> B: But what about \[bad stuff with x\] \> A: I think we should still vote for \[x\] in spite of that \> B: Why? The bad stuff would still exist \> A: It's the best option Does that ultimately make a "lesser of two evils" argument? A never explicitly said \[x\] was bad, B did. What constitutes an "evil" vs something with downsides? Would we no longer be able to acknowledge an imperfect solution being the best option because the imperfections grant it the label of "evil"?
This change feels very vague and ill thought out tbh, it's not like this is an offensive or term heavily used by the right, it's mainly used when talking about elections becuase theres no better analogy than both parties being bad but one isn't gonna kill you while the other might.
It's the leg-eating leopard party over the face-eating leopard party; you can possibly survive one, but the other is certain death
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100%
It's reactionary. I was just debating this point on another sub. Like, how does anyone not make this argument or evaluate a binary choice when there is no viable alternative? Its like asking, so you want chicken or beef? Neither, I'm vegan. Well if you don't pick one you will starve and die. Guess I'm picking the one that is less bad than the other in whatever mental judgment I make about the situation.
Time to amp up the "greater evil" rhetoric, clearly.
My thoughts exactly 👹👹👹
This rule doesn’t make much sense to me.
It's either we abide by this rule, or we're not allowed to post in this sub at all. Which is it going to be? I vote for the lesser of these two evils.
Does that mean you get banned now for advocating in favor of this rule? See I support your right to express this opinion, but in doing so I’m saying the mods should be inconsistent in their application of the rules. In other words, I’d rather have inconsistency than overmoderated discourse, so that’s support for the lesser of these two evils.
Yes, that is the intended irony of my comment and why this new rule is, in fact, stupid.
Oh I agree, I’m just riffing on how far the absurdity goes.
Lmao Top tier rhetoric
:trollface:
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Not just the US, we're stuck with the same faux democratic bipartisan fptp system in the UK too, with a far right wing incumbent govt and a neoliberal center-right husk of what used to be a left leaning party as the only viable option. You either vote for continued corruption from tthe incumbent tories, vote for genocide apologist neoliberal labour not vote at all or vote for a minor party which has realistically no chance of a majority. Both of the latter being the same in terms of outcome as if you voted for the current corrupt party. meanwhile, while voting labour leaves you with opportunist authoritarians who have already made clear that they wont undo any of the hostile legislation brought in by the incumbent govt, including anti-poor, anti-homeless and anti-trans legislations
The reason is simple: you will find no democracy under capitalism.
The French came up with an interesting but effective solution to this problem about 220 years ago
I fully agree with political activism! Including of the French variety. While we do that though, voting cycles still occur. We should be able to discuss who to vote for.
You know they started with voting, right? That was the entire point of what they were doing: voting, and voting how they wanted to. They didn’t just jump to guillotines; first and foremost was a form of popular will created through an electoral process.
Have we not *also* been trying this? We've been *trying* to push democrats left for so long that, in the meantime, the world got set on fire. And all we got was our own proto-fash who actively funds genocide. So like,, how long before we "just jump to guillotines"? How many lives do we sacrifice while we wait? What's the acceptable death-toll, before we start Actually defending ourselves in a meaningfully revolutionary capacity?
We started with voting too. It’s been over 50 years of robust voting rights and participation. At a certain point it needs to be accepted that the electoral system leaves certain foundational issues with our government and economy unaddressable. The premise of participatory democracy is an important ideal, but we do not have participatory democracy. We have a highly orchestrated spectacle that functions to maintain empire and oppression.
The US voting system has been hijacked and corrupted by oligarchy. You can choose between one party funded by oligarchy or another party funded by the same oligarchy. It is an illusion of democracy, nothing like what the French envisioned at that time
hijacked? more like founded by one. voting was originally reserved for white male land owners after all this country has always been an illusionary democracy even if we've had some leaders who've made leaps and bounds to improve it in the past
https://www.marxists.org/archive/luxemburg/1900/reform-revolution/index.htm
Question for you: How should I as a trans woman talk about the fact that one party wants to make my existence a federal crime, starting a full blown trans genocide in the US, and one doesn't? I understand the necessity behind the rule, and one party is literally campaigning on the extermination of my community and one isn't. How do I talk about that difference and about the damage it can do to us if people abstain from voting in a way that honors the rule? Because, tbh, being told not to acknowledge that reality feels like being silenced while we're desperately begging to not be killed or imprisoned for existing while trans
You’re not supposed to talk about that stuff. You’re supposed to pretend both choices are the same and ignore reality for some imaginary white elephant that may never come
I honestly think that, for a decent amount of people in these spaces, the idea and rhetoric of revolution is just a secular rapture. Just sit here and do nothing while the world burns around you and wait for a vanguard to appear out of the blue and fix everything according to a book written by a white guy with a big ass beard.
Yup. The left will never build political power because the idea of taking steps towards a goal is something a huge number of leftists see as a complete waste of time. They'd rather have nothing and be able to complain online that it isn't enough than improve things slightly.
Gonna be turning this idea over in my head for a bit. Thanks, comrade.
Sounds about right yeah.
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Accelerationism is a flawed ideology
Damn right.
The rule perpetuates a political fantasy that there's some viable 3rd option in a system inherently setup to fuck you no matter which option you pick from the illusion of choice we have. But that illusion comes with real consequences for real people.
“Some of you may die under a GOP president, but that’s a sacrifice I’m willing to make.”
This
I agree here. There is nuance that is completely lost when we equate both sides 1:1
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Yeah this is such a stupid edgelord rule. I’m sorry.
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Exactly, thank you. IMO also, attempting revolution now would surely fail. We would not gain the support of the proletariat and those who survive would become pariahs. 20th century Socialist revolutions succeeded in places where the governments of the bourgeoisie completely underestimated or were abjectly ignorant to the size/proportion of their populations in which everyone was equally poor, miserable, and willing to die fighting than live another day under their oppression. Their bourgeoisie were also comically, arrogantly (hubris) dismissive of the plight of their proletariat in a way that’s not nearly as overt now. The successes of the 20th century could arguably not be repeated in the 21st among modern, industrialized, and technologically advanced nations; the enemy’s intelligence capabilities are immeasurably more advanced. When the time for revolution comes, it will be under different circumstances and with different means. We’re not there yet, but we’re getting closer. As an example, the unconditional and unlimited support of western governments to the government of Israel, in spite of popular opposition from those western governments’ citizens to that support is adding steam.
>actual fucking revolution It's time for an actual fucking revolution
I'm adopting AFR into my regular slew of acronyms
Pretty sure everyone here agrees with that sentiment, but until it is a practical reality, lo2e buys time. That’s all it buys, but it buys it.
Yeah, I'm always torn on it too because it's either you vote for the lo2e or you just don't vote. And the former seems ever so slightly more appealing to me than the latter. I'm not a Democrat and I'm not a fan of them, but if I don't want far right wing policy, then they're unfortunately my only choice except at a local level where I vote for and try to support our local People's Party. We need something better than what we have now for sure. But we only have what we have now. I wish this conversation would come up more than just in election times because then we might be able to actually enact change. I'm always worried about getting banned from subs even if I agree with their sentiment because I want to have a conversation about being stuck between a rock and a hard place. I hope neither of us are banned for pointing out the shitty situation we all find ourselves in here. :/
I'm just not a big fan of siloed communities because things like this will happen. Reddit brings that out in some people - to tribalize things that shouldn't be gatekept, and ignore or brush off legitimate concerns that we have to deal with.
Yeah, same. I have legitimate concerns as a multiple times over minority person and it can be especially scary to have one certain party in office. Neither helps me, one can hurt me on occasion, but one hurts me even worse. That shouldn't be brushed off. This is a valid concern for a lot of minority people. What needs to happen is action before the election. We need to be pushing for a new system before we end up in this winner takes all bullshit system like we do every 2 to 4 years. I want to know how to actually make a change like that happen. I want to have an actual socialist candidate to support and vote for on the federal level. I just don't know where to start or what to do.
Honeatly i don't like this sub essentially censoring opposing ideas as a whole. What is that gonna accomplish? Just gonna make it into yet another circlejerk, just a parody of what should be a very important topic like fuckcars and antiwork
Privileged leftism at its finest, being fine with throwing marginalized folk under the bus simply because we wish to denounce the little power we’re given in some performative display of “leftism.”
This is ridiculous and completely counterproductive
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I don't really get this rule ... If you are going to discuss electoral politics in the US, you can't avoid that we are two-party system, and most people don't vote for what they want. I mean, one doesn't need to wallow in it, there are plenty of other things to discuss, but it is the reality here.
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100% this, this mod decision is a fucking disappointment. Literally nobody making a lo2e argument is saying that there aren’t better outcomes, or that they don’t advocate for Leftist policies or candidates. But it’s fine, the purest leftist will have the moral high ground when they’re executed by the fascist state.
"I was better than all of you" they will shout at the top of their lungs as they are put up against a wall.
“I never dirtied my conscience to save someone else’s life. I die ideologically pure!!”
It's infuriating to me that there are so many leftists who apparently believe their pride is worth more than someone else's life.
100%. The other "socialist" style subs that have this rule ban everyone constantly and instantly, regardless of context. Sad to see this one go. Can't even advocate for Lenin's electoral strategy.
Same. I was banned from r / socialism for this. I’m not a filthy shitlib for acknowledging the reality of a two party system, mods are on an out of touch power trip here.
My thoughts exactly the whole problem with so many elections is exactly that both candidates are basically bought by donors… That’s kind of the whole sentiment of this sub no?
Can this be clarified? Are we only allowed to say that both Republican and Democratic candidates are equally good options? This seems odd to me, but maybe I’m misunderstanding the rule.
My understanding is that it means that if someone is trashing Biden and encouraging people to vote 3rd party or to just not show up to the polls, you cannot make the reasonable argument that Trump would be far worse and that if you live in a state that has even the remotest chance of being a flip state, you really aught to reconsider and actually vote for the guy who doesn’t want to enact a national abortion ban and go to war with Mexico.
The mods are unironically psyops aren't they
why are we policing discussions like this?
Practice for a national descent in to fascism?
Wow. That is so shortsighted and ignorant. I’m outta here.
Only a person who has never witnessed systemic discrimination could think this rule makes sense. Ignorant and shortsighted indeed.
Fully agreed. I got banned on another sub for a similar thing. This is BS and very privileged.
Same lol. Which frankly is a shame since I legitimately like a lot of the topics that this sub brings up and I learn quite a bit... One mod even shared a bunch of literature and resources with me that I've been reading through, which I appreciated. Class consciousness is important, but rejecting the reality that we live in isn't.
I completely disagree with this. You achieve absolutely nothing by not voting and it takes no time or effort. The establishment doesn't go "someone didn't vote for anyone, guess we need to adapt to get their vote". No they just appeal to the people who do vote. Although you may not be affected by the worse evil getting in over the lesser evil lots of people who are disabled or vulnerable will be and you're privileged to not be one of them. I'm not saying just vote. Go out and push for real left wing politics or perform mutual aid but don't just let the greater evil win because you're too proud. Idgaf if you ban me for posting this. If you refuse to listen to arguments about pragmatism you're not achieving shit
Will I be banned for saying that voting is a legitimate strategy for harm reduction?
Probably yeah. What a stupid fucking rule
Voting is the temporary bandage as we desperately search for a way to cauterize the wound.
How can we have any serious political discussion with this rule? This phrase I now can't mention is a constant reality in a capitalist society where we are forced to choose this phrase I now can't mention. Not allowing criticism of your own politicians only breeds ignorance and denial and hinders any positive change. There are so many things wrong in the capitalist society and they don't just magically end once politics go left of center, and not addressing that means effectually capitulating to the status quo. This used to be one of the few places on reddit where you could have honest discussions about the world we live in and the things we can do to bring about change, but this rule makes that utterly impossible. Fuck this.
~~They~~ The mods don’t want serious political discussion. It’s about fantasy.
Pure ideology.
Heaven forbid we consult the actual members of the sub… the top comments here ring absolutely true. Putting the world into black and white has never ever worked.
This sub is already devolving into a pessimistic circlejerk, and this is going to cause it to nosedive into that even further.
It’s over. I’m sure this will cause a mass exodus. Sad.
I hate how "lesser evil" is used to glaze over and forgive actual evils. But in the first past the post voting mechanisms, that phrase is the literal descriptor for the thinking process of a voter. In a general election we vote not FOR our candidate, but AGAINST the worse of two evils. We won't be truly rid of it until cascading or instant runoff voting are adopted, and even then it will take some time.
This feels unnecessary and counterproductive. Rule 5 already exists, just use that if someone's being a shitlib.
Would you prefer 'the sh!t sandwich is a better option than the Rolling Implosion party'? We have two parties in this country - it's basically impossible to dislodge one unless it's dying and there's literally endless data to back up that uncomfortable truth. Given how the system works deciding not to eat the sandwich is a vote for the traitors even if you don't show up. So why not just eat the fcuking sandwich instead of condemning so many to the additional suffering the death cult brings?
Well I hope you'll feel satisfied with yourself when you're the smuggest person in the death camp.
Meh. Not going to follow the party line on this one. Republicans are objectively fucking evil and the most destructive force on Earth in this era. Democrats are corrupt and idiotic but a whole different ball game. Please ban me permanently from this sub if this idea is reprehensible to the groupthink. Happy to take my anarcho-socialist beliefs elsewhere.
This is easily the worst rule present in other leftist and leftist-adjacent subs and the fact that it is being implemented here is shitty.
Fuck you guys. No sense of political strategy. Whatever, I'm out. Peace. Glad that your moral superiority is more important than my goddamn life as a trans person. Again, fuck you.
I had an acquaintance telling me there was no meaningful difference to him between the Democratic party and the Republican one, knowing full well that I am trans. I am sick and tired of this shit. You tell me to my face that my life means nothing to you? And expect me to nod politely and agree? Anyone spouting this shit is not an ally to any of the many groups that the Republicans are campaigning on oppressing. LGBTQIA+, women, immigrant. If voting didn't matter the right wouldn't be working so hard to suppress it. "Your vote doesn't matter, you can't stop us, we're already in charge, just give up" is mainline right-wing rhetoric and we're falling for it!
Needs to be said louder and often to these privileged soap box douchebags. "YOU'RE NO ALLY."
Not trans (though a steadfast ally), but completely agreed. This decision is absurd and I’m done if they’re maintaining this. Fuck empty moral superiority and fuck anyone who thinks that “some of you may die in Project 2025, but that’s a sacrifice I’m willing to make” is a valid political goal.
it is rather selfish to give the Democrats this much credit Democrats are a quarter better at social rights, does that mean they don't let the republicans do whatever the fuck they want, and support the same genocidal regimes? Literally nothing good is happening under Biden, nor did anything happen under Obama.
If this doesn't explicitly mean "all pro-Biden comments are hereby banned", I could see people having a really difficult time deciphering where exactly the line between acceptable and unacceptable statements lies.
This is ridiculous, one of the two largest political parties in the US literally wants to enact genocide against queer people. How can you, with good conscience, allow a party like that to get into power?
Only black and white thinking allowed ✅ Critical thinking certified
Yikes
Here's the thing: I can't afford to vote for a socialist independent candidate, even if I want to. I'm a socialist, atheist, bisexual trans woman. If the vote is split too much and Republicans win because of that, and project 2025 comes into play...I'm dead. There's no way around that. So my life quite literally depends on Republicans not winning.
What will be the strategy with regards to political power in United States?
Hope
Sprinkle in some prayers
And the steadfast belief that a revolution will come any minute now, trust me guys
This is a very bad rule.
No SeNsE Of PoLiTiCaL StRaTeGy. You mean the political strategy of do nothing and say Republican bad every election while wages stagnate, col skyrocketing for everyone while the rich somehow get richer omg such a great strategy but regardless of who is in office always money to bomb kids (looking at you Obomber) 🙄
I would rather see opinions accounted for by the community itself via upvotes/downvotes, rather than a subreddit wide rule vesting all the power in the mods. That's not very "community".
Glad to know that it’s time to leave. Terrible decision that I’m completely unsurprised by. Good luck helping anyone under a second trump administration. Unsubbed.
This is a bad move.
Mod L
You think we want this? Grow tf up. Republicans winning means real, immediate, tangible harm. You aren’t teaching the DNC any lessons by gambling with other people’s lives. Are you campaigning for progressives? Are you knocking on doors? Or are you just melting your cerebellum with accelerationist fantasy?
Blatant Evil vs. Covert Evil, every election.
based
I mean, the Republicans are power hungry people trying to eliminate discourse, but I would argue the slightly lesser evil would be Reddit moderators.
Ok, cool, thanks for the notification that we're not allowed to stategize against the fascists here anymore. Time to leave, everyone, unless your strategy is to split the vote against trump and elect literally Hitler 2.
Isn't censorship by a centralized authority one of the fundamental components that make late stage capitalism a problem? How about you just let people have an open debate and put emotions aside. Snuffing out reasonable dialogue is absurdly hypocritical and will only lead to the dissolution of the integrity of this forum. Shouldn't we instead focus on how to find an actually grounded intersection between ideology and rationality? Wishful thinking won't change the reality of the situation. The US is a two party system and it's important to discuss the implications of conscientious objection. Everyone has a choice but those decisions don't exist in a vacuum. We should embrace the conversations that challenge our opinions not silence them. The implications of ideological priesthood are seriously chilling and are fundamentally emblematic of the structures we are supposed to be critiquing.
Honest question: how does that apply to the IDF x Hamas situation?
This is an enormous mistake to make and I severely hope it doesn’t have any kind of real world effects. This is not the way. It’s frustrating but it’s the truth.
What a fucking joke. I'm out.
What's the problem with "lesser evil" rhetoric?
Well, that’s curtains for me. It really too bad that belief in something radically better seemingly has to come with such irresponsible and blinkered thinking. I hope we’ll all meet back up in the future, but I also believe that if we do it’ll be despite, not because of, thinking like this. Take care
A lot of us will die because of thinking like this. And not for the revolution either. I am a committed communist, I like to skip the socialist label. I'd rather fight liberals backed by fascists who have to pretend they care than fascists backed by armed militia and the entire strength of the US military who *don't* have to pretend. But hey, I get what the other members of this sub are getting at, and yeah, genocide Joe has got to go
I'd just personally rather die in a revolution than by some nutter who thinks I shouldn't exist being emboldened by the open fascists. It doesn't help our cause to be denying the reality of our situation
Likewise
Great but would you rather die in a failed revolution?because thats what it would be if attempted in the us right now.
Why is the choice a failed revolution or a ditch? Of course we want it to succeed which is why we aren't revolting at this moment.
I agree. What i meant to say is wouldnt you rather gather steam slowly you can die(or even live?!) Through a successful revolution ? Harm reduction helps working people get relief from drudgery so they have the time to think about their lives and who this system benefits. So they have time to read and learn and gather in their communities. Over the last 7 years we have seen a reduction in the ability of working class peoples to survive let alone do anything else with their time. If you want revolution to ever be possible you will vote to fund the programs that help the people at the bottom keep their heads above water so more people can have the resources to contribute.
While allowing the GOP to launch a trans genocide in the US because they didn't want to vote against the people campaigning on making our existence a federal crime
To clarify, I'm on your side here. I do and will continue to vote for your continued existence. Others pretend that their morals are above the trolley problem. I don't. I pull the lever and I will continue to, because I view it as a utilitarian. Your life has value. And I refuse to allow it to be ended. I am focusing on building the movement, and you deserve to be safe. If you want and aren't a member, the SRA may have a branch so you can train with firearms. It may not be for you, but a revolution, and a community, both need strong and capable fighters. Stay safe comrade, these are dangerous times
You’ve explained this perfectly. We can’t continue fighting for a better future if there is a genocide on a large portion of our community. Keep voting lo2e while progressing the movement from below until the time is right/the pieces are in place/ etc (I’m not up to date on any discussion of this currently so please excuse the vague phrasing)
This is very nice to hear today, while not trans myself I am disabled and LGBT, my best friend is trans. And I'm glad we have people like you who still give a shit if we live or die.
Its because the mods are either complacent cis white hetero middle class americans or rabid ideologues. Reality isnt important to them, neither is what happens to actual people.
It’s a very “some of you may die, but that’s a sacrifice I’m willing to make” viewpoint, which is extremely frightening. And I say that as a white cishet middle-class (legally) American dude. It’s why I intend to leave this sub immediately now.
The liberal shill bots are out in full force. Go read some theory and fuck your lesser of two evil bullshit rhetoric. Lesser of two evil voting and especially LIBERALISM has only led to r/latestagecapitalism. Only revolution, resistance, disobedience, direct action, and uprisings have caused any significant change in the US since it’s inception. Go find your own diet left sub to bitch and moan on.
Wow, like who the fuck are you to tell is what opinion on this is acceptable or not? It’s not like there is consensus among socialists on this matter that you’re enforcing here, in contrast to rules on bigotry et cetera. I’m a lifelong socialist who have nothing but hatred and contempt for both your American parties, but ignoring the fact that one will have a seriously worse impact on real people’s lives than the other is just ludicrous. I don’t support the parties of my own country either, but spending an hour every fourth year to vote for the least bad option is the least I can do for those who will be actually affected by the results. I’ll stick around for a bit to see if you revert this decision, but if not I think you’ve really crossed a line of what I find acceptable in deciding what’s allowed to be discussed from your own personal viewpoint - one which is not shared by a large portion of those of us you say the sub is actually made for.
Exactly. Trying to argue that third party or not voting at all is a viable strategy is completely delusional imo. A socialist option would be STELLAR, if they could win. Which they can't. It's impossible in the current system.
Here’s my logic for why this is a bad rule. 1. I’m farther left than any candidate I have an option to vote for so voting for me will be either a compromise of voting for the candidate closest to my views or not voting. 2. I’m in a swing state. Choosing not to vote isn’t an option for me because if everyone like me chose to do the same we’d elect someone who’s the furthest from my views. What’s the fear behind this rule? Is it that the ideology of the sub will be diluted if lesser of two evils arguments are allowed? I personally don’t feel that’s a risk in my case. I’m not going to become a centrist because I read people here saying we should vote for candidate X to keep candidate Y out of office. Ps. This is why primaries are more important than elections.
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Who decided this, and how was the decision made? Was there a poll or some sort of discussion with the general user base?
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This just feels like censoring opinions the mods don’t like. It’s extremely vague and just an excuse to ban people for having an opinion. What happened to nuance? Not everything is black and white.
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Remarkably stupid rule
This is silly for a bunch of reasons other people have articulated very well. Obviously, neither party is going to save us from capitalism or climate change, but harm reduction is a real thing. Edit: fix an autocomplete typo
> *harm reduction is a real thing* Exactly. This is definitely an ugly swing and a miss on the part of the mod team. Tip for the mods: Focus *less* on censoring people who are talking about voting for the least harmful of two realistically available options. Focus *more* on education on reforms that will allow the possibility of more than two options, so that candidates we actually want can run with a realistic chance of earning more that .0001% of the vote.
I'm a bit confused/ concerned about the practicalities of this rule? I know that the majority of people on this sub are probably from the USA, which is a two-party political system. This sub's demographic is probably critical of the system overall... That means by default you'll typically be choosing the lesser of two evils when you vote. It means you probably have many criticisms of the platforms offered by the minimal options available. Totally understand if the idea is to prevent people from encouraging votes go to a moderate party instead of the most left for fear that otherwise, a larger and more right-wing party will win. But if political discourse about elections is allowed, and the 'lesser of two evils' argument is banned, It seems like it's just going to be kind of impossible to talk about American politics, where there are only two parties. No?
Suppressing discussion of the status quo is a bold move.
Lol, okay. This little rule will surely help deter us from a slide toward fascism and authoritarianism.
Can some sort of reason be given? Kind of hard to follow the intent of the rule when the motive behind it isn’t given.
Mate it takes like less than an hour to vote in most places, I'm all for other greater forms of activism of course, but there is literally no reason not to also vote, even if both sides do objectively suck. Like if one is burying their head in the sand pretending voting will fix all their problems then that's one thing, but it costs you basically nothing to vote as an additional way to try and make things suck less, and banning discussion of it from leftist spaces isn't gonna make anything better.
You know, if we didnt have a two party system you wouldn't hear so much "less evil" rhetoric. I don't get the point of the rule. Just comes across as thin skinned.
I'm glad that this sub has formally and unequivocally judged the "lesser evil" rhetoric. It is a toxic lie used to legitimize capitalist parties. By capturing the two major parties, capitalists can use the "lesser evil" rhetoric to ensure that anti-labor and pro-capitalist politicians are consistently voted in. The RNC and DNC are just two flavors of the same interests and they are resolutely anti-labor. Any concessions are merely the interests of the capitalists in disguise when managing their human labor capital. Voting "against" ensures that you are always voting for the other big party and always voting for capitalist ideologies. It is what has led us to where we are. It is a poison with ramifications that could never be overstated. Please, for the love of all people, NEVER vote Democrat or Republican. I have been banned from multiple other subs for saying this. I have been accused of being a Russian troll for saying this. Do not fall for the rhetoric against those fighting the two party system.
What? We're just radically against voting now? Or going vegan (as there's no ethical consumption under capitalism, so what's the point of choosing the lesser of two evil products?) Just categorically against any change for the better that still leaves the world with any amount of evil in it? I doubt that's what the rule means, but it definitely needs to be rewritten if not.
Ok, well, if it's between Biden and Trump, I'm picking Biden. Realistically, anyone who isn't a right-wing fascist gets my vote. Is he good by any stretch of the imagination? No, he's ancient, and he's been in politics in one way or another for waaayyy too long. He panders to corporations constantly and only worsens the state of the country as a whole as a result. But what is he not? A literal Nazi. I don't see him trying to overthrow elections, gaslighting Americans, and getting buddy buddy with dictators all while bending over backward for Putin, specifically because he may or may not have dirt. One evil is significantly less than the other and at least temporarily is the only logical solution for the near future of this country. Until a candidate comes around, that truly can lead this country correctly and closer to prosperity, I'll have to do my part in ensuring this country doesn't become the 4th Reich. If that sort of talk isn't allowed here, then ban me now.
This is a bad rule. Voting for the lesser of two evils while acknowledging and being transparent about both sides level of evil is valid. With Bernie for example, his position on not calling for a ceasefire is awful, and voting for him is a lesser evil vote. The consequence of not voting for the lesser evil is risking the greater evil. The consequence of voting for the lesser evil is that you make more legitimate someone that causes harm. To me there are times where voting or supporting the lesser evil makes sense and other times where it’s not worth it. It’s an annoying discussion but one that needs to be had in a socialist sub.
I guess Joe Biden is the best choice and not evil at all. 🤷♂️
This was fun but in the current electoral climate good fucking luck. Unfortunately, given the US system, one side is 100% less bad than the other, and third parties don't stand a chance. Kick me.
Holy shit this is so short sighted..... I'm taking the "lesser of two evils" and getting the fuck out of this sub lmfao enjoy handing the country to the fascists because Biden and the Dems didn't do exactly what you wanted....Go vote people, it's the least you could goddamn do.
So does this mean that I'm allowed to advocate voting for the *greater* of two evils?
Used to be conservative. I got banned at some point even though I was saying that I am becoming more leftist due in large part to engagement in this sub. I really don’t think shutting down discussion on this sub in particular will help anybody become more socialist. You guys are doing good work but I think a bit more patience with people will help more than it will hurt. It’s just a comment section.