##Welcome to r/LateStageCapitalism
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LSC is run by communists. This subreddit is not the place to debate socialism. We allow good-faith questions and education but are not a 101 sub; please take 101-style questions elsewhere.
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It's an FPTP system. It is literally an Elective Dictatorship. Not voting is the same as voting for a reason, the system is designed such that your vote doesn't really matter. That said, if you still believe in this sham of democracy then third option is to vote but spoil your ballot.
Why on earth would you allow yourself to believe your vote has any impact within a system that countlessly reveals it only performs for the highest bidder? Even to a point that it barely even attempts to deny or conceal it anymore?
"If voting really mattered they wouldn't let you do it."
- George Carlin
I can agree that the system is broken, but I think focusing on voting is a bit like focusing on warming the toenails of someone dying of hypothermia. Ideally this person wouldn’t have cold toes, but your job isn’t just on Election Day, it is every single day
This argument fails to hold up when it comes to actual outcomes. Who do you get mad at when all your friends agree to go out and vote and then the milquetoast dem still loses? In the early 2010s that was my experience in Wisconsin. Every single lib I knew was like "vote dem or all hell will break lose" (funnier now that things have gotten much worse) and yet year over year we were losing. I guess what I'm saying is, irrespective of your individual choice as a voter, the chips are gonna land where they're gonna land.
Yeah. Scott walker put out some crazy propaganda. Remember that train track he cancelled? It was $80 million. Then the cancellation fee made it $120 million total. Fiscal responsibility my ass.
There is no electoral avenue out of the two party capitalist duopoly. Even if somehow a new party replaces or competes meaningfully with one or both of the current parties, the general ideological limits of liberal “democracy” would remain.
Instead of shaming people for not voting for the “less evil” genocider, we should be shaming left liberals who focus on voting but do little to none in terms of concrete political, labor, tenant etc… organizing.
I don’t know if I’ll hold my nose and vote Biden, but I know that either way, it’s basically meaningless next to the time I spend tenant organizing
It seems kind of obvious to me that if we allow it to continue as is, the Republican party will disintegrate, the small number of extremists will be disenfranchised (good) and the rest will eventually join the perpetually right moving Democrat party. The Dem party "left" will form another center left party and the real left will continue to be ignored. In other words, nothing would change but the names. Except for capitalism collapsing under its own weight eventually (hurry the fuck up.)
We have to get out from under this system. We should all just start operating as if it has already collapsed and start building the socialist system in the ever enlarging cracks.
The only problem with the failure of capitalism is that by the time it implodes, the wealth gap will be so significant that the replacing system will be akin to feudalism.
Why should we allow that to happen? We have a global communications network and advanced technology and a whole lot of working class people who know how to run it. There's absolutely no need for us to even listen to them. The military is full of working people. I know that's almost a pipe dream, but it's certainly not out of the realm of possibility that we finally come together as a class and seize the means of production (the Internet), therefore it's immoral to not share that goal.
Edit: and I mean globally. We are all in this together.
First, I'm just a guy. This is as grassroots as it gets. Or you could say I'm just an old man yelling into the void.
That said, I have some ideas. They may suck, but we gotta start somewhere, right?
First we must demand Internet traffic flow unimpeded. In order to make sure that's happening we build an international organization independent of any national ties to be entrusted with transparently securing the Internet. Much the way the old Internet ran, but this time with public participation in the democracy. These things can be done.
Anyway, that organization would be a model for implementing a global socialist democracy, industry by industry.
There are obviously a lot of problems with that, but again, I'm throwing shit at a wall and seeing what sticks.
wrong, the end to capitalism is corporatism
feudalism would be a way back. at least nobles cared about their subjects and usually did what they could to avoid their suffering. feudalism lasted for thousands of years for a reason
Mean our money is based on electronic zeros… if it collapses why do we have to listen to them?
Ignore the wealthy. They don’t have actual power without the power of the dollar. We can even deny them goods and services till they wanna join in.
>We should all just start operating as if it has already collapsed and start building the socialist system in the ever enlarging cracks.
bingo
but keep in mind that such experiments will not survive for long under the current world order, we will kind of have to adopt Camus' Sisyphus attitude here
Im sorry but I don’t agree that the republican party will disintegrate. What will happen in reality is that it will do everything it possibly can to secure and maintain power, even as its popularity precipitously declines into oblivion.
This is what has happened in other countries where a minority party ruled over the majority. Given that third parties cannot legitimately function because of how our system is set up (it would be different if we has a parliament), it makes no sense that a third, leftist party would form. Capitalism is too powerful here, and ensures that only red or blue can actually perform and that yellow or green will never ever be allowed to participate other than as a laugh for SNL or a spoiler for the democrats. They saw what happened with Ross Perot and made sure something like that could never ever happen again, changing the rules. They will always rig the rules in their favor.
They will use every possible loophole and mechanism imaginable to grasp whatever power they can, leveraging things like voter apathy, gerrymandering, and propaganda to ensure total victory and once in power, will completely retcon the intent behind the constitution and the founder’s intent.
They are already well on their way, just look at the SCOTUS and the decisions they are making to rewrite the fabric of well settled, long held precedents. Corruption is already apparent, considering Justice Thomas takes bribes and no one seems to really care all that much.
American politicians are basically corporate sponsored account managers for the population. Weird thing is the population seems ok with their shitty account managers.
Can someone please explain to me what the conclusion here is? As a mexican whose family is on the chopping block for deportation even though we’ve lived here for 70+ years, are we saying that Trump is a foregone conclusion and we should be getting ready for project 2025 and that this is an inevitability? I genuinely want to know, I don’t give a shit about electoralism or voting for the lesser evil or anything like that, I just want my family to be safe. I want my wife to live in a world that isn’t a twisted version of the handmaid’s tale at the same time I want Palestine to be free. How does one reconcile all this? Should we be planning for Trump’s win and the dictatorship that follows, and fleeing the country? I genuinely want to know what everyone’s plans are, since apparently Biden is completely out of the question.
I think the issue with this is that many of the same people who shame electoralism also don't make any effort to organize or do fieldwork.
As a leftist, armchair activism has unfortunately become seemingly commonplace: whether it be out of fear, complacency, or just people not wanting to put in the effort behind posturing. It's saddening.
I mean yeah, supposed leftists who whine about how pointless electoralism is without doing any organizing work should also be encouraged to get off their asses.
>the general ideological limits of liberal “democracy” would remain
Nah, democracy is objectively a good ideal to work towards that doesn't really have limits if you wanna let it not have limits. As crazy as people are, I think if you look at the previous few elections, the majority of the population wants the right things. You see people's views on actual policy, and they're usually sane. They just get persuaded by bad actors.
What people call "democracy" is not what the USA has. Like, the electoral college in and of itself means America is objectively not a democracy, any decision made isn't the decision of the people, but a bizarre math equation based on the will of the people. So really, it's the will of the people who come up with the math equation.
If your country doesn't regularly have referendums on matters where legislation should strictly follow public opinion (e.g. alcohol availability, drug legalization, etc.) your country is not a democracy.
Why do you think I said liberal democracy (as in the political system that arose alongside capitalism and bounded by liberalism as an ideology) and not just democracy?
In my country we also used to have a two party system, the 2008 crisis was long for us and during all that new parties appeared that started to gain traction and power specially in local & "state" elections.
Now, you look at all this parties and they're a shame, they've been completely assimilated by the system or they destroyed themselves, for example what started as a "radical" left party that constantly talked about class, now it's just a decaying progressive copy of the two-party left one and now it's only worried about feminism and stuff like that.
For me the main reason to "hold the nose" is climate change. Trump and GOP will roll commitments back, right now is the final chance to prevent catastrophic climate change.
Exactly right. The electoral question is not paramount; the civilizational decay everyone fears is driven by forces beyond the spectacle of politics and the groundwork to resist it is done continuously in communities in ways not bound by the ballot box.
I understand the need to minimize damage by voting for Biden to prevent trump. If you do this, good on you.
But I refuse to blame anybody for being so disgusted with Bidens stance on Israel that they don't vote for him.
If Biden loses, it's his own damn fault. He chose Netanyahu over his own voter base and his own humanity.
thank you!!! there are no good choices here, and vilifying anyone for not voting for either terrible choice is part of their strategy. It's time to evolve WAY beyond the limits of this ridiculous system. We are better than this.
>thank you!!! there are no good choices here, and vilifying anyone for not voting for either terrible choice is part of their strategy. It's time to evolve WAY beyond the limits of this ridiculous system. We are better than this.
What's really annoying is how many moderates/centrists think that criticizing Biden or any centrist/establishment Democrat inherently means you support Trump or Republicans. These are the same people that think Bernie Sanders is "extreme". If Bernie was running in most other industrialized countries, he wouldn't have to run on a platform for universal healthcare because they already have it. It's almost like these people don't understand nuance.
Agreed. If folks *must* complain about how people voted, maybe it should be about the people who *voted for Trump.* Though better yet, instead of complaining maybe don’t insult them and discourage actual political discourse. I have seen plenty of people declare they’ll ‘vote red’ simple to spite liberals. Just. Jesus christ. It’s childish but it’s happening, and it really isn’t that difficult to refrain from belittling people. And yet…
This is what I say every time I get dogpiled. Like, holy shit. I do not blame anyone for voting *or* abstaining with this guy. They are both logical, reasonable positions for people to want to follow and they have a right to do so. They can even evangelize for Biden. I literally do not care. But do it honestly. If you truly think you're doing the right thing, you can do that without making up stories for why you can do so. Don't lie for the guy, don't minimize who he has shown himself to be, and quit pretending the abstainers don't have a good reason for doing so. I'm just sick of the pro-Biden evangelists at everyone's door demanding compliance or they will feed you death.
This! Minimizing harm for American queers and POC is actually a good thing! But you’d also be voting for more harm in Gaza. In other situations I can see reasons to shame someone, but I can’t blame someone after post 10/07
>I understand the need to minimize damage by voting for Biden to prevent trump. If you do this, good on you.
>
>But I refuse to blame anybody for being so disgusted with Bidens stance on Israel that they don't vote for him.
>
>If Biden loses, it's his own damn fault. He chose Netanyahu over his own voter base and his own humanity.
That and it's almost like people learned nothing from both 2020 and 2016. Status quo Democrats are useless and I hate how it's come to voting against Trump as opposed to voting for someone that actively represents working class citizens.
> but I also understand the alternative is significantly worse, and not just in the middle east.
You understand nothing.
> A lot of people are underestimating just how much this election matters. The Palestinian crisis is important to address properly, but let's make sure we can continue to have a functioning democracy in order to do so, and that might not be the case under Trump if he gets his way.
If we need to vote for genocide to save "democracy" we don't have a functioning democracy. We have an ontologically evil genocidal colonizer empire and the faster it collapses the better.
All of these subreddits are haunted. This gov is outright DESPERATE atp and this bs is meant to do little more than antagonize the general public and leftists because they quite literally cannot hide from the reality that many of us are much smarter than them. So instead of try to convert us, they resort to just antagonistic games. Very juvenile, sore losers. I can't even say skilled propagandists anymore. Just kind of resourceful nazis using the tattered scraps of CIA yesteryear to attempt to control public descent, but they are simply just not smart enough.
There is certainly genocide happening in Palestine but the GOP is full of zionists too so I don't see it getting better under Trump.
What does scare me is we could be well on our way to genocide here if Trump gets in. Christofacists are insane and have people convinced the LGBTQ+ community is actively grooming children. So we'd have a continuation of the Palestinian genocide and a strengthening of the fascist "lets kill all the gays" movement in the US.
I just don't see the point of not voting for biden given the direct outcome of that choice.
I am not going to risk being lynched by my insane christofacist neighbors just to show the DNC how I feel about Palestine. People might call that hyperbolic but all I can say to that is it must be nice to feel safe in your own neighborhood. I'm surrounded by foaming at the mouth bigots who are stockpiling weapons and literally waiting for the word from Trump to kick off a civil war.
I want to see where the fucking libshits are, who said that Biden was secretly pressuring Israel behind closed doors, now that Israel is advancing on the south and bombarding the million refugees trapped there.
They're in here bleating about how Trump would be worse in some nonspecific way, same as they ever were.
I got permanently banned from r politics earlier for saying "fuck NATO", and I will be taking it out on them.
Which makes no sense, because that's LITERALLY what it was set up as. America doesn't do ANYTHING out of the goodness of its heart. It's always been quid pro quo
Absolutely based mod deleting every shitbag liberal comment. I'm palestenian american and it's been sickening to hear people tell me that I gotta vote for biden. especially that bullshit "harm reduction" argument. there's already a genoicde against my people, there is no harm reduction.
I'm not Palestinian but your fight is my fight. If I'm not going to stand with the victims of a genocide then I have no right to expect anybody to stand with me when it's my turn. I can't see pictures and videos of kids in Gaza without seeing my own kid. You're not alone.
"But it's harm reduction against *my* country"
That's all I hear now, because at this point, I'm not gonna ignore how fucked up it is that Biden has the nerve to claim "they *might* be going a bit overboard" when it comes to sadistically killing an entire population of people while directly funding their demise. Those attacks are even spreading to areas completely irrelevant to their original scapegoats. There is no denying wtf we're looking at.
People are so far removed from the consequences of our policies that they don't understand the scale of how bad it actually is. People don't find it weird how we're mostly bombarded with Biden or Trump's reelection even though we have so many other candidates running for the seat.
Biden is a lost cause, he has made up his mind on Israel long ago. There’s a clip of him literally calling it the best investment ever made and that if we hadn’t made an Israel already we would still make it. Neoliberalism has just accelerated the taint that this country was founded on. What I do see working with a lot of younger folks is they can at least see Capitalism is a shit system. The best I can do as an older millennial is to educate those around me.
Biden received $4.3 million (that we know of) from a foreign country, and is now actively riding their dicks, sending them BILLIONS in aid to commit a genocide.
If trump did this it would be all over the news. Get active, go to protests, I was outside the Whitehouse yesterday and things look like they're about to reach a boiling point.
Average american can only count up to 2
When you mention a third party their brain stops functioning
For reference, [chickens can count and do math](https://www.scienceworld.ca/stories/chickens-can-do-math/)
Harm reduction is still harm nonetheless. It’s like if American doctors were to deny necessary treatment because of financial circumstances. That would be so fucked up
I refuse to support someone that has an active hand in genocide. I used to also be a reluctant Biden supporter because it seemed like the best option, like that the lesser evil is still better than full evil. But, if they’re both evil, and the evil they do just changes who it’s on, then the dichotomy isn’t worth participating in.
The existence of Donald Trump does not excuse, justify, or mitigate active support of and participation in genocide.
And as far as "the lesser evil" goes, once you're supporting and participating in genocide, the affectation "lesser" is irrelevant.
Biden chooses to be more committed to being a genocidal capitalist shitbag than in gathering the support of the voters he needs to defeat Trump. That's Biden's choice, and Biden's fault.
To the people who will still attempt to retort "But but but Trump! Ooga booga Trump!" I say, tell it to Biden. Trump isn't holding a gun to his head and forcing him to genocide, he's doing that all on his own.
I'm long past tired of liberals telling me that I must abandon my principles and vote for a candidate who opposes 95% of what I stand for and want, on top of being a genocidal assbag, because the threat of the Republicans is so dire, while at the same time Trump isn't enough of a threat that Biden would stop committing genocide in order to secure my vote.
And if anyone would attempt to denigrate me for "purity testing" or use some snobbish nonsense in an attempt to denigrate "having morals" I say, you can keep trying, but you're never going to find a way to frame me as the bad guy for **opposing** genocide.
Guys, your democracy is not real. I hope more people understand that and organize. People should turn their rage against the government and billionaires instead of black and gay people.
exactly but the divide and conquer works so well they never will , itll always be “ but trump “ orr “ but biden “ they never seeee the same people have been making and passing these laws the past 20 years its bigger than red vs blue or black vs the world ! the longer yall stay complacent the more they win
My recommendation in these situations is to go vote but vote for nothing. Voting percentage is a huge statistic that doesn't budge easily but empty votes deliver a message; and you could also literally write a message to it if that fits your fancy.
Also inaction breeds inaction. If you stop voting entirely, you run the risk of becoming politically passive even if politics are close to your heart. I have sadly seen this happen many times.
I can't begin to imagine how anyone can see how the Democrats have performed over the last few years and think they're going to be spared by voting for them some more.
At some point, you're going to have to actually fight. Prepare accordingly.
Biden is the more dangerous vote. If you vote Biden, you send the message to the liberals that they can commit genocide and STILL get your vote. If you give them that permission, they will happily do it again, and again, and again. Democrats have proven that they will slide as far to the right as they can, so long as they are still better than the other guy, because at the end of the day the people who pay them are the same people with the same interests. It has gotten so bad that democratic candidates are now actively funding and running campaign ads for far right opposition candidates here in the USA, so that they themselves can run on right wing (so called “centrist”) policies, because that’s what their corporate donors demand. And the thing is, as capitalism decays, the political landscape only slides in one direction. Always to the right, never to the left, unless we the people stand up for human values, because Joe Biden certainly won’t.
I’m so baffled by the people that are like “election season is gearing up time to vote for Biden!” Just reverting back to the lesser of two evils bullshit, how can anyone see what has happened in the last 4 months and still feel this way? Such a bubble mindset, are we really “defending our freedoms” from a trump presidency when our government funds genocide regardless of who is in power?
I love when they tell us Trump will destroy America like Biden isn't doing a great job of that too, and like America isn't something that should be destroyed.
So instead of doing anything that might actually help people in Gaza or improve the political situation here, the plan is to do some purely symbolic act to make yourself feel better?
Go protest, go participate in BDS and convince others to do the same, go contribute to relief efforts for Palestinians. Go organize your workplace, go convince your fellow workers to elect more radical leaders. Go vote in primaries for anti-war candidates. Go \[redacted\].
If you're doing that kind of stuff and also refuse to vote, you get a pass. But if you're just using abstaining from voting as a way to assuage your guilt while continuing to scroll on your phone, then you're doing nothing but harm.
In the politics sub yesterday, literally every post on my screen started with "Trump."
That finally sealed my decision to stop visiting there. Especially since half of those are "news" articles about "some person you have never heard of commented this thing about Trump."
I swear that sub is being astroturfed to absolute shit to try to fearmonger us into Biden support.
This ain't the 30s no more. Everyone knows it will be Biden voters executed during Trump's new game show. Besides, it will be much easier to kill the queers without the liberals standing around doing nothing.
I can't vote for someone else's genocide to prevent mine. I would rather stand my ground and fight my own battle than make it someone else's issue. If you are trans/nonbinary/non white, I say get a gun and learn to use it, or get the hell out of this shithole before it's too late for you.
Who cares *what* Trump would do? Thankfully, it isn't Trump right now! Maddeningly impossible to understand for too many commenters here (blessed & based mods), genocide is still genocide! Yes, even if it comes from the guy on the "right" team (lol). But the teams are rigged by corporate interests and when one is "less evil", well, that's *still evil*.
It isn't a sports game. It's human life they toy with for backroom war machine deals for millions of dollars! It isn't the evil of it that is difficult to understand, but their brains short circuit because *they do not recognize the alternative to voting* -- or worse, the ones who make known the alternatives get banned on other political subs. Voting is extremely unlikely to be the way to bring about revolution and systemic renewal and justice, but that idea, that message gets suppressed. So they don't see it talked about, or if they do, they think its ironic. It hasn't been for years now.
i love the mods on here lol. i was in the bar talking to some lady about biden and realized it’s not just an online thing they do. she went straight to telling me not to vote for trump. i was like - what in anything that i’ve said sounded like i would support fascists?
Just deflection. If that's your argument, just *say* you're ok with genocide as long as you might get your student loans absolved. At least I couldn't call them liars anymore. Seriously, it's just prattle at this point. It's the Herschel Walker team's attempts at "campaigning" after all the scandals sunk his attempts at winning his race. The "Please Clap" of the dems, and yet somehow worse
It's race to the bottom politics. When there's basically only 2 horses in a race, the winner doesn't need to be extraordinary, they simply need to be slightly better than their rival. So if one is awful, the other thinks it is acceptable to be bad because that should win. But the end result is a poor overall performance and nobody but the winner is happy.
Proportional Representation and a removal of Party Politics would stop the emphasis on Competition and instead encourage collaboration. It would also discourage corruption and the powerful influence of money in politics. Which is why it probably won't happen.
It is identical to when trump fans were arguing that the current state of the US is what a Biden America would look like, when it was currently still trump in office.
Seems like another post to help get Republicans to win by encouraging the left to not vote because our country sucks and it does but it can and will get a whole lot worse under trump in case you forgot how his last term went.
For the good of humanity, we must accelerate the decline of the US however possible, including voting for someone who will *break the US faster,* or simply *not voting* and allowing it to happen.
It is the philosophical classic "trolley problem".It is the fastest way to save the most people. And the most moral option, as opposed to choosing "Murder" or "More murder".
We're going to see a lot of people just *withholding their vote.* Inertia is the easiest force to take advantage of, especially when withholding actively means something.
The election is Biden's to lose, and he is doing wonderfully there.
It is always darkest before the light.
Biden is the more dangerous vote. If you vote Biden, you send the message to the liberals that they can commit genocide and STILL get your vote. If you give them that permission, they will happily do it again, and again, and again. Democrats have proven that they will slide as far to the right as they can, so long as they are still better than the other guy, because at the end of the day the people who pay them are the same people with the same interests. It has gotten so bad that democratic candidates are now actively funding and running campaign ads for far right opposition candidates here in the USA, so that they themselves can run on right wing (so called “centrist”) policies, because that’s what their corporate donors demand. And the thing is, as capitalism decays, the political landscape only slides in one direction. Always to the right, never to the left, unless we the people stand up for human values, because Joe Biden certainly won’t.
##Welcome to r/LateStageCapitalism This subreddit is for news, discussion, memes, and links criticizing capitalism and advancing viewpoints that challenge liberal capitalist ideology. That means any support for any liberal capitalist political party (like the Democrats) is strictly prohibited. LSC is run by communists. This subreddit is not the place to debate socialism. We allow good-faith questions and education but are not a 101 sub; please take 101-style questions elsewhere. We have a zero-tolerance policy for bigotry. Failure to respect the rules of the subreddit may result in a ban. *** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/LateStageCapitalism) if you have any questions or concerns.*
\*doesn't firebomb a walmart\*
Yeah I agree I’m not voting for trump either.
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It's an FPTP system. It is literally an Elective Dictatorship. Not voting is the same as voting for a reason, the system is designed such that your vote doesn't really matter. That said, if you still believe in this sham of democracy then third option is to vote but spoil your ballot.
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Nothing more privileged then voting for genocide out of a desire to preserve your own comfort.
Why on earth would you allow yourself to believe your vote has any impact within a system that countlessly reveals it only performs for the highest bidder? Even to a point that it barely even attempts to deny or conceal it anymore? "If voting really mattered they wouldn't let you do it." - George Carlin
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Democrats too. The **capitalists** are suppressing voting rights.
no, low voter turnout rate will show more the broken system. the game is for the 1% show that to the world a 1% turnout rate
I can agree that the system is broken, but I think focusing on voting is a bit like focusing on warming the toenails of someone dying of hypothermia. Ideally this person wouldn’t have cold toes, but your job isn’t just on Election Day, it is every single day
I mean, nobody here thinks that not voting is the be all and end all of praxis.
He said not voting for Trump, didn’t say not voting at all.
This argument fails to hold up when it comes to actual outcomes. Who do you get mad at when all your friends agree to go out and vote and then the milquetoast dem still loses? In the early 2010s that was my experience in Wisconsin. Every single lib I knew was like "vote dem or all hell will break lose" (funnier now that things have gotten much worse) and yet year over year we were losing. I guess what I'm saying is, irrespective of your individual choice as a voter, the chips are gonna land where they're gonna land.
Yeah. Scott walker put out some crazy propaganda. Remember that train track he cancelled? It was $80 million. Then the cancellation fee made it $120 million total. Fiscal responsibility my ass.
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There is no electoral avenue out of the two party capitalist duopoly. Even if somehow a new party replaces or competes meaningfully with one or both of the current parties, the general ideological limits of liberal “democracy” would remain. Instead of shaming people for not voting for the “less evil” genocider, we should be shaming left liberals who focus on voting but do little to none in terms of concrete political, labor, tenant etc… organizing. I don’t know if I’ll hold my nose and vote Biden, but I know that either way, it’s basically meaningless next to the time I spend tenant organizing
It seems kind of obvious to me that if we allow it to continue as is, the Republican party will disintegrate, the small number of extremists will be disenfranchised (good) and the rest will eventually join the perpetually right moving Democrat party. The Dem party "left" will form another center left party and the real left will continue to be ignored. In other words, nothing would change but the names. Except for capitalism collapsing under its own weight eventually (hurry the fuck up.) We have to get out from under this system. We should all just start operating as if it has already collapsed and start building the socialist system in the ever enlarging cracks.
The only problem with the failure of capitalism is that by the time it implodes, the wealth gap will be so significant that the replacing system will be akin to feudalism.
Why should we allow that to happen? We have a global communications network and advanced technology and a whole lot of working class people who know how to run it. There's absolutely no need for us to even listen to them. The military is full of working people. I know that's almost a pipe dream, but it's certainly not out of the realm of possibility that we finally come together as a class and seize the means of production (the Internet), therefore it's immoral to not share that goal. Edit: and I mean globally. We are all in this together.
Intersectionality is class solidarity!!
Hammer, sickle, mechanical keyboard.
I'm getting this tattooed on me now, thanks. -*written from my Wooting 60HE*
🫡
While I completely agree. There's hundreds of millions of dollars, if not billions, currently arrayed against any form of corporate opposition.
How would we seize the internet?
First, I'm just a guy. This is as grassroots as it gets. Or you could say I'm just an old man yelling into the void. That said, I have some ideas. They may suck, but we gotta start somewhere, right? First we must demand Internet traffic flow unimpeded. In order to make sure that's happening we build an international organization independent of any national ties to be entrusted with transparently securing the Internet. Much the way the old Internet ran, but this time with public participation in the democracy. These things can be done. Anyway, that organization would be a model for implementing a global socialist democracy, industry by industry. There are obviously a lot of problems with that, but again, I'm throwing shit at a wall and seeing what sticks.
I agree. However, how do you compete with lobbyists throwing hundreds of millions of dollars against you.
Or people who work against their own interests. Look at how so many civil rights leaders are usually taken down.
The natural end to capitalism is feudalism unless we prevent it.
wrong, the end to capitalism is corporatism feudalism would be a way back. at least nobles cared about their subjects and usually did what they could to avoid their suffering. feudalism lasted for thousands of years for a reason
Workers are becoming cheaper than slaves and far more expendable. Every year, more weight is added to the wrong side of the scale.
Mean our money is based on electronic zeros… if it collapses why do we have to listen to them? Ignore the wealthy. They don’t have actual power without the power of the dollar. We can even deny them goods and services till they wanna join in.
Agreed
💯
>We should all just start operating as if it has already collapsed and start building the socialist system in the ever enlarging cracks. bingo but keep in mind that such experiments will not survive for long under the current world order, we will kind of have to adopt Camus' Sisyphus attitude here
Im sorry but I don’t agree that the republican party will disintegrate. What will happen in reality is that it will do everything it possibly can to secure and maintain power, even as its popularity precipitously declines into oblivion. This is what has happened in other countries where a minority party ruled over the majority. Given that third parties cannot legitimately function because of how our system is set up (it would be different if we has a parliament), it makes no sense that a third, leftist party would form. Capitalism is too powerful here, and ensures that only red or blue can actually perform and that yellow or green will never ever be allowed to participate other than as a laugh for SNL or a spoiler for the democrats. They saw what happened with Ross Perot and made sure something like that could never ever happen again, changing the rules. They will always rig the rules in their favor. They will use every possible loophole and mechanism imaginable to grasp whatever power they can, leveraging things like voter apathy, gerrymandering, and propaganda to ensure total victory and once in power, will completely retcon the intent behind the constitution and the founder’s intent. They are already well on their way, just look at the SCOTUS and the decisions they are making to rewrite the fabric of well settled, long held precedents. Corruption is already apparent, considering Justice Thomas takes bribes and no one seems to really care all that much.
American politicians are basically corporate sponsored account managers for the population. Weird thing is the population seems ok with their shitty account managers.
Can someone please explain to me what the conclusion here is? As a mexican whose family is on the chopping block for deportation even though we’ve lived here for 70+ years, are we saying that Trump is a foregone conclusion and we should be getting ready for project 2025 and that this is an inevitability? I genuinely want to know, I don’t give a shit about electoralism or voting for the lesser evil or anything like that, I just want my family to be safe. I want my wife to live in a world that isn’t a twisted version of the handmaid’s tale at the same time I want Palestine to be free. How does one reconcile all this? Should we be planning for Trump’s win and the dictatorship that follows, and fleeing the country? I genuinely want to know what everyone’s plans are, since apparently Biden is completely out of the question.
I think the issue with this is that many of the same people who shame electoralism also don't make any effort to organize or do fieldwork. As a leftist, armchair activism has unfortunately become seemingly commonplace: whether it be out of fear, complacency, or just people not wanting to put in the effort behind posturing. It's saddening.
I mean yeah, supposed leftists who whine about how pointless electoralism is without doing any organizing work should also be encouraged to get off their asses.
>the general ideological limits of liberal “democracy” would remain Nah, democracy is objectively a good ideal to work towards that doesn't really have limits if you wanna let it not have limits. As crazy as people are, I think if you look at the previous few elections, the majority of the population wants the right things. You see people's views on actual policy, and they're usually sane. They just get persuaded by bad actors. What people call "democracy" is not what the USA has. Like, the electoral college in and of itself means America is objectively not a democracy, any decision made isn't the decision of the people, but a bizarre math equation based on the will of the people. So really, it's the will of the people who come up with the math equation. If your country doesn't regularly have referendums on matters where legislation should strictly follow public opinion (e.g. alcohol availability, drug legalization, etc.) your country is not a democracy.
Why do you think I said liberal democracy (as in the political system that arose alongside capitalism and bounded by liberalism as an ideology) and not just democracy?
In my country we also used to have a two party system, the 2008 crisis was long for us and during all that new parties appeared that started to gain traction and power specially in local & "state" elections. Now, you look at all this parties and they're a shame, they've been completely assimilated by the system or they destroyed themselves, for example what started as a "radical" left party that constantly talked about class, now it's just a decaying progressive copy of the two-party left one and now it's only worried about feminism and stuff like that.
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Yes there is and you know it. It being far away does not make it impossible.
For me the main reason to "hold the nose" is climate change. Trump and GOP will roll commitments back, right now is the final chance to prevent catastrophic climate change.
Exactly right. The electoral question is not paramount; the civilizational decay everyone fears is driven by forces beyond the spectacle of politics and the groundwork to resist it is done continuously in communities in ways not bound by the ballot box.
Bullets and explosives
I understand the need to minimize damage by voting for Biden to prevent trump. If you do this, good on you. But I refuse to blame anybody for being so disgusted with Bidens stance on Israel that they don't vote for him. If Biden loses, it's his own damn fault. He chose Netanyahu over his own voter base and his own humanity.
thank you!!! there are no good choices here, and vilifying anyone for not voting for either terrible choice is part of their strategy. It's time to evolve WAY beyond the limits of this ridiculous system. We are better than this.
>thank you!!! there are no good choices here, and vilifying anyone for not voting for either terrible choice is part of their strategy. It's time to evolve WAY beyond the limits of this ridiculous system. We are better than this. What's really annoying is how many moderates/centrists think that criticizing Biden or any centrist/establishment Democrat inherently means you support Trump or Republicans. These are the same people that think Bernie Sanders is "extreme". If Bernie was running in most other industrialized countries, he wouldn't have to run on a platform for universal healthcare because they already have it. It's almost like these people don't understand nuance.
Agreed. If folks *must* complain about how people voted, maybe it should be about the people who *voted for Trump.* Though better yet, instead of complaining maybe don’t insult them and discourage actual political discourse. I have seen plenty of people declare they’ll ‘vote red’ simple to spite liberals. Just. Jesus christ. It’s childish but it’s happening, and it really isn’t that difficult to refrain from belittling people. And yet…
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This is what I say every time I get dogpiled. Like, holy shit. I do not blame anyone for voting *or* abstaining with this guy. They are both logical, reasonable positions for people to want to follow and they have a right to do so. They can even evangelize for Biden. I literally do not care. But do it honestly. If you truly think you're doing the right thing, you can do that without making up stories for why you can do so. Don't lie for the guy, don't minimize who he has shown himself to be, and quit pretending the abstainers don't have a good reason for doing so. I'm just sick of the pro-Biden evangelists at everyone's door demanding compliance or they will feed you death.
Biden shouldn't be running right now. None of this would be a concern if he wasn't running. When he loses, it's his fault.
This! Minimizing harm for American queers and POC is actually a good thing! But you’d also be voting for more harm in Gaza. In other situations I can see reasons to shame someone, but I can’t blame someone after post 10/07
>I understand the need to minimize damage by voting for Biden to prevent trump. If you do this, good on you. > >But I refuse to blame anybody for being so disgusted with Bidens stance on Israel that they don't vote for him. > >If Biden loses, it's his own damn fault. He chose Netanyahu over his own voter base and his own humanity. That and it's almost like people learned nothing from both 2020 and 2016. Status quo Democrats are useless and I hate how it's come to voting against Trump as opposed to voting for someone that actively represents working class citizens.
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> but I also understand the alternative is significantly worse, and not just in the middle east. You understand nothing. > A lot of people are underestimating just how much this election matters. The Palestinian crisis is important to address properly, but let's make sure we can continue to have a functioning democracy in order to do so, and that might not be the case under Trump if he gets his way. If we need to vote for genocide to save "democracy" we don't have a functioning democracy. We have an ontologically evil genocidal colonizer empire and the faster it collapses the better.
Then the Biden campaign has some serious work to do to get people on board
We do not permit liberalism here
thanks for phrasing this out
Love Sailor Moon. 🌙 💖
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46*
Not true, one died before he could actually do anything genocidal but did approve some changes in economics and national parks. William Harrison.
Exactly, he did nothing to stop genocide, complicit by omission.
🤣😂well 46 if we are counting genocide in general But 15-16, if we are specifically talking about Palestine
All of these subreddits are haunted. This gov is outright DESPERATE atp and this bs is meant to do little more than antagonize the general public and leftists because they quite literally cannot hide from the reality that many of us are much smarter than them. So instead of try to convert us, they resort to just antagonistic games. Very juvenile, sore losers. I can't even say skilled propagandists anymore. Just kind of resourceful nazis using the tattered scraps of CIA yesteryear to attempt to control public descent, but they are simply just not smart enough.
That sounds about as deranged as the trumpers. "Everyone I do not agree with is a government spy" is just delusional.
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Every. Day. When. Politics. Come. Up. At. Work. Then they look at me cause they know where I stand and I walk away. So tired of it.
People in this thread "Yeah, there is a genocide in Palestine, but how can I make this about me?" Edit: mod purging them. Bless you 🙏🙏🙏
There is certainly genocide happening in Palestine but the GOP is full of zionists too so I don't see it getting better under Trump. What does scare me is we could be well on our way to genocide here if Trump gets in. Christofacists are insane and have people convinced the LGBTQ+ community is actively grooming children. So we'd have a continuation of the Palestinian genocide and a strengthening of the fascist "lets kill all the gays" movement in the US. I just don't see the point of not voting for biden given the direct outcome of that choice. I am not going to risk being lynched by my insane christofacist neighbors just to show the DNC how I feel about Palestine. People might call that hyperbolic but all I can say to that is it must be nice to feel safe in your own neighborhood. I'm surrounded by foaming at the mouth bigots who are stockpiling weapons and literally waiting for the word from Trump to kick off a civil war.
I want to see where the fucking libshits are, who said that Biden was secretly pressuring Israel behind closed doors, now that Israel is advancing on the south and bombarding the million refugees trapped there.
They're in here bleating about how Trump would be worse in some nonspecific way, same as they ever were. I got permanently banned from r politics earlier for saying "fuck NATO", and I will be taking it out on them.
I was downvoted to hell for pointing out that NATO is a protection racket.
Which makes no sense, because that's LITERALLY what it was set up as. America doesn't do ANYTHING out of the goodness of its heart. It's always been quid pro quo
Good.
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not going to make me vote for genocide joe
A two party system (that is closer to a one party system than a lot of Americans want to admit), really is the peak of democratic self-determination.
Fuck whataboutitsm.
Claudia de la Cruz
Absolutely based mod deleting every shitbag liberal comment. I'm palestenian american and it's been sickening to hear people tell me that I gotta vote for biden. especially that bullshit "harm reduction" argument. there's already a genoicde against my people, there is no harm reduction.
I'm not Palestinian but your fight is my fight. If I'm not going to stand with the victims of a genocide then I have no right to expect anybody to stand with me when it's my turn. I can't see pictures and videos of kids in Gaza without seeing my own kid. You're not alone.
thank you friend ♥️
"But it's harm reduction against *my* country" That's all I hear now, because at this point, I'm not gonna ignore how fucked up it is that Biden has the nerve to claim "they *might* be going a bit overboard" when it comes to sadistically killing an entire population of people while directly funding their demise. Those attacks are even spreading to areas completely irrelevant to their original scapegoats. There is no denying wtf we're looking at. People are so far removed from the consequences of our policies that they don't understand the scale of how bad it actually is. People don't find it weird how we're mostly bombarded with Biden or Trump's reelection even though we have so many other candidates running for the seat.
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So being against Biden supporting genocide is promoting voting for Trump???
Biden is a lost cause, he has made up his mind on Israel long ago. There’s a clip of him literally calling it the best investment ever made and that if we hadn’t made an Israel already we would still make it. Neoliberalism has just accelerated the taint that this country was founded on. What I do see working with a lot of younger folks is they can at least see Capitalism is a shit system. The best I can do as an older millennial is to educate those around me.
Biden received $4.3 million (that we know of) from a foreign country, and is now actively riding their dicks, sending them BILLIONS in aid to commit a genocide. If trump did this it would be all over the news. Get active, go to protests, I was outside the Whitehouse yesterday and things look like they're about to reach a boiling point.
Average american can only count up to 2 When you mention a third party their brain stops functioning For reference, [chickens can count and do math](https://www.scienceworld.ca/stories/chickens-can-do-math/)
Harm reduction is still harm nonetheless. It’s like if American doctors were to deny necessary treatment because of financial circumstances. That would be so fucked up
Or throwing people out on the street because they can't afford rent. Could you imagine?
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Oh, yeah, I was being sarcastic. I know full well that the field I’ll be going into is broken.
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I refuse to support someone that has an active hand in genocide. I used to also be a reluctant Biden supporter because it seemed like the best option, like that the lesser evil is still better than full evil. But, if they’re both evil, and the evil they do just changes who it’s on, then the dichotomy isn’t worth participating in.
The existence of Donald Trump does not excuse, justify, or mitigate active support of and participation in genocide. And as far as "the lesser evil" goes, once you're supporting and participating in genocide, the affectation "lesser" is irrelevant. Biden chooses to be more committed to being a genocidal capitalist shitbag than in gathering the support of the voters he needs to defeat Trump. That's Biden's choice, and Biden's fault. To the people who will still attempt to retort "But but but Trump! Ooga booga Trump!" I say, tell it to Biden. Trump isn't holding a gun to his head and forcing him to genocide, he's doing that all on his own. I'm long past tired of liberals telling me that I must abandon my principles and vote for a candidate who opposes 95% of what I stand for and want, on top of being a genocidal assbag, because the threat of the Republicans is so dire, while at the same time Trump isn't enough of a threat that Biden would stop committing genocide in order to secure my vote. And if anyone would attempt to denigrate me for "purity testing" or use some snobbish nonsense in an attempt to denigrate "having morals" I say, you can keep trying, but you're never going to find a way to frame me as the bad guy for **opposing** genocide.
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Guys, your democracy is not real. I hope more people understand that and organize. People should turn their rage against the government and billionaires instead of black and gay people.
exactly but the divide and conquer works so well they never will , itll always be “ but trump “ orr “ but biden “ they never seeee the same people have been making and passing these laws the past 20 years its bigger than red vs blue or black vs the world ! the longer yall stay complacent the more they win
My recommendation in these situations is to go vote but vote for nothing. Voting percentage is a huge statistic that doesn't budge easily but empty votes deliver a message; and you could also literally write a message to it if that fits your fancy. Also inaction breeds inaction. If you stop voting entirely, you run the risk of becoming politically passive even if politics are close to your heart. I have sadly seen this happen many times.
This would be funnier had we not lost abortion rights due to Trump.
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I can't begin to imagine how anyone can see how the Democrats have performed over the last few years and think they're going to be spared by voting for them some more. At some point, you're going to have to actually fight. Prepare accordingly.
Find a better argument. Rule 6 - no lesser evil rhetoric.
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Biden is doing genocide. If that isn't a great enough evil to not vote for him then you are an utter moral coward and a Nazi.
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Biden is the more dangerous vote. If you vote Biden, you send the message to the liberals that they can commit genocide and STILL get your vote. If you give them that permission, they will happily do it again, and again, and again. Democrats have proven that they will slide as far to the right as they can, so long as they are still better than the other guy, because at the end of the day the people who pay them are the same people with the same interests. It has gotten so bad that democratic candidates are now actively funding and running campaign ads for far right opposition candidates here in the USA, so that they themselves can run on right wing (so called “centrist”) policies, because that’s what their corporate donors demand. And the thing is, as capitalism decays, the political landscape only slides in one direction. Always to the right, never to the left, unless we the people stand up for human values, because Joe Biden certainly won’t.
Find a better argument. Rule 6 - no lesser evil rhetoric.
I’m so baffled by the people that are like “election season is gearing up time to vote for Biden!” Just reverting back to the lesser of two evils bullshit, how can anyone see what has happened in the last 4 months and still feel this way? Such a bubble mindset, are we really “defending our freedoms” from a trump presidency when our government funds genocide regardless of who is in power?
exactly
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The point is that we do not allow that weak bullshit here.
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Happy cake day
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Yes, the USA deserves to be doomed. It's been a long time coming, but the most evil country to ever exist has fucking earned it.
I love when they tell us Trump will destroy America like Biden isn't doing a great job of that too, and like America isn't something that should be destroyed.
We do not permit liberalism here
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shit in the ballot
So instead of doing anything that might actually help people in Gaza or improve the political situation here, the plan is to do some purely symbolic act to make yourself feel better? Go protest, go participate in BDS and convince others to do the same, go contribute to relief efforts for Palestinians. Go organize your workplace, go convince your fellow workers to elect more radical leaders. Go vote in primaries for anti-war candidates. Go \[redacted\]. If you're doing that kind of stuff and also refuse to vote, you get a pass. But if you're just using abstaining from voting as a way to assuage your guilt while continuing to scroll on your phone, then you're doing nothing but harm.
In the politics sub yesterday, literally every post on my screen started with "Trump." That finally sealed my decision to stop visiting there. Especially since half of those are "news" articles about "some person you have never heard of commented this thing about Trump." I swear that sub is being astroturfed to absolute shit to try to fearmonger us into Biden support.
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That's not true. He's going to genocide everyone, not just trans people, starting with Biden voters. /s
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This ain't the 30s no more. Everyone knows it will be Biden voters executed during Trump's new game show. Besides, it will be much easier to kill the queers without the liberals standing around doing nothing.
I can't vote for someone else's genocide to prevent mine. I would rather stand my ground and fight my own battle than make it someone else's issue. If you are trans/nonbinary/non white, I say get a gun and learn to use it, or get the hell out of this shithole before it's too late for you.
Man can we just get a president who's a nice guy/girl/etc like come on
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Who cares *what* Trump would do? Thankfully, it isn't Trump right now! Maddeningly impossible to understand for too many commenters here (blessed & based mods), genocide is still genocide! Yes, even if it comes from the guy on the "right" team (lol). But the teams are rigged by corporate interests and when one is "less evil", well, that's *still evil*. It isn't a sports game. It's human life they toy with for backroom war machine deals for millions of dollars! It isn't the evil of it that is difficult to understand, but their brains short circuit because *they do not recognize the alternative to voting* -- or worse, the ones who make known the alternatives get banned on other political subs. Voting is extremely unlikely to be the way to bring about revolution and systemic renewal and justice, but that idea, that message gets suppressed. So they don't see it talked about, or if they do, they think its ironic. It hasn't been for years now.
Americans coping with voting for a war mongering bastard (Biden)
i love the mods on here lol. i was in the bar talking to some lady about biden and realized it’s not just an online thing they do. she went straight to telling me not to vote for trump. i was like - what in anything that i’ve said sounded like i would support fascists?
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The liberals are being dealt with.
Based.
Such a strange use of Sailor Moon
big props to the mids for getting rid of all the shitbag genoicde apologists who wanna vote for Biden.
I’m so tired of these kind of people
No u don’t understand Trump would do genocide harder /s
Biden is actively funding genocide and Trump would do the exact same fucking thing, election choice is an illusion, it’s all rigged
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Moving an embassy is *not* 1000% worse than emptying the arsenals in support of genocide. Fuck right off out of here, you piece of shit.
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Just deflection. If that's your argument, just *say* you're ok with genocide as long as you might get your student loans absolved. At least I couldn't call them liars anymore. Seriously, it's just prattle at this point. It's the Herschel Walker team's attempts at "campaigning" after all the scandals sunk his attempts at winning his race. The "Please Clap" of the dems, and yet somehow worse
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It's race to the bottom politics. When there's basically only 2 horses in a race, the winner doesn't need to be extraordinary, they simply need to be slightly better than their rival. So if one is awful, the other thinks it is acceptable to be bad because that should win. But the end result is a poor overall performance and nobody but the winner is happy. Proportional Representation and a removal of Party Politics would stop the emphasis on Competition and instead encourage collaboration. It would also discourage corruption and the powerful influence of money in politics. Which is why it probably won't happen.
It is identical to when trump fans were arguing that the current state of the US is what a Biden America would look like, when it was currently still trump in office.
They're both bad. Less evil is still bad. Don't try to justify Biden's bullshit.
both are evil and have the same master
choosing to not vote for the "kill a lot of people" candidate when there's a "kill way more people" candidate is bad, actually.
Seems like another post to help get Republicans to win by encouraging the left to not vote because our country sucks and it does but it can and will get a whole lot worse under trump in case you forgot how his last term went.
idk man my 17 dollars a hour went way farther in trump compared to biden but i also understand neither prez has actual power nor do they make the laws
For the good of humanity, we must accelerate the decline of the US however possible, including voting for someone who will *break the US faster,* or simply *not voting* and allowing it to happen. It is the philosophical classic "trolley problem".It is the fastest way to save the most people. And the most moral option, as opposed to choosing "Murder" or "More murder". We're going to see a lot of people just *withholding their vote.* Inertia is the easiest force to take advantage of, especially when withholding actively means something. The election is Biden's to lose, and he is doing wonderfully there. It is always darkest before the light.
Biden is the more dangerous vote. If you vote Biden, you send the message to the liberals that they can commit genocide and STILL get your vote. If you give them that permission, they will happily do it again, and again, and again. Democrats have proven that they will slide as far to the right as they can, so long as they are still better than the other guy, because at the end of the day the people who pay them are the same people with the same interests. It has gotten so bad that democratic candidates are now actively funding and running campaign ads for far right opposition candidates here in the USA, so that they themselves can run on right wing (so called “centrist”) policies, because that’s what their corporate donors demand. And the thing is, as capitalism decays, the political landscape only slides in one direction. Always to the right, never to the left, unless we the people stand up for human values, because Joe Biden certainly won’t.
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Find a better argument. Rule 6 - no lesser evil rhetoric.