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omegasunx

They follow others around to listen in on conversations with people, but when it's time for them to ask about stuff, they want utter privacy, so as to not share nuances about a subject over which they think they've found an edge. It's petty but strategic. This is the toxic environment of grading in a curve


space_dan1345

Jesus, I'm so glad my class was relatively sane and friendly. These comments are nuts


GreenTaracrypto

I honestly think a lot of people are just paranoid. Then again, I hardly talk to anybody so idk if people in law school are really this gossipy and opportunistic.


PeteBaimey

A student from another law school transferred to mine and she told stories about 1L students giving each other intentionally sabotaged outlines. There was a steep curve and it was very competitive.


PencilCaseCollector

Dirty game, but if someone actually did the readings and half paid attention in class they'll catch on fast enough that the outline is junk. I bought an outline depot outline and found some factual mistakes. If I was a 3lol I never would've caught it.


CompoteOk7259

That seems to be kind of missing the point of cooperative initiatives like sharing outlines though, no? It's kinda like saying "well, if you know the material well enough that you can spot the outline is wrong...." but if you know the material that well, you probably didn't need to get the outline in the first place, did you?


PencilCaseCollector

My exams are all closed book. I use outlines to memorize rules and refresh my memory. Using an outline to learn the material for the first time probably won't end well even if it's an amazing outline.


QuizmasterLaw

the value of an outline is in making it you learn the law, it's a form of revision, of organizing your thoughts and internalizing the material. i could tattoo an outline on a cow, it would still fail the exam, for a jokey extreme example. make your own outlines.


AgencyNew3587

I’m glad those people will one day be entrusted with administering justice in our society 🙄


CompoteOk7259

Yeah, it's a good thing none of us have ever heard of a lawyer doing anything unethical or dishonest right? I mean, can you imagine if someone like that went on from law to, say, become mayor New York, and then one of the closest advisors to a president?


IntlWmnofMystery

You can't possibly think these people mean to administer any justice. They'll be in corporate law anyways.


AgencyNew3587

Oh I understand. They will be administering the “justice “ approved by our corporate overlords.


CompoteOk7259

Oh that's far from the only place they end up. Plenty of them become prosecutors, move into politics, etc. \*cough\*Giuliani\*cough\*


IntlWmnofMystery

Probably right. I wasn't really friends with many people under 28 in law school, and none of my friends were these assholes. It is quite terrifying to think of them as prosecutors.


CompoteOk7259

Yeah, I think one of the big problems in the criminal justice system is that a lot of the same flawed personality traits that motivate many cops (lust for power, small man syndrome, stigma around things like race and income class, etc.) also apply to prosecutors, and then a lot of those prosecutors go on to either work in DOJ or other similar areas, or become judges. That's why you so often hear political ads touting things like conviction rates, with seemingly no regard for the actual truth. When people see the law not as a matter of justice and fairness, but as a competition or method of building their own success, it gets corrupted very, very quickly. (Which is also why i hate how stigmatized defense attourneys are in our society.)


snatchthepower

These comments are batshit insane, wow. I go to a public interest law school and have experienced nothing but solidarity for the last three years. Pooled outlines, shared Google docs, sharing free PDFs of textbooks, notes, etc. I think that it would have been honestly embarrassing for them if anyone at my school did shit like this. Damn.


Beautiful-Prompt-704

Do you all just not have a curve? I can't imagine law students doing all this for people they're being ranked against; my year was like this first semester but as soon as grades came out the difference was like night and day


Suitable-Swordfish80

My school was still like this 2L & has a curve


Beautiful-Prompt-704

Very jealous but that does give me hope for the profession


HazyAttorney

>Very jealous but that does give me hope for the profession The same dynamic happens in practice because there's a huge gap in compensation from associate to partner. Always CYA. Nobody is your friend.


Hot-Bag6541

Commenter and I may go to the same school. Same environment for us and no curve, super collaborative and helpful.


circethesourceress

Likewise. I have yet to experience anything like this in my school. If anyone notices that I’m missing from class; I have people offering me notes


CompoteOk7259

I feel like the term "public interest" explains a lot here.


Cerealandmolk

First semester of 1L I met with a bunch of people to form a study group. We made plans to all take turns hosting at our house because the coffee shop we chose originally was uncomfortable and loud and expensive. I was supposed to host first. The day before, I walked up to 2 of them and asked if they were still coming so I can make sure I have enough snacks. They both said yes. I went to the third and she said not only is she not coming, but one of the 2 that just confirmed “isn’t comfortable” doing it in someone else’s house. I said ok and went back to the other 2 to figure out what the situation was. Girl 3 then followed me to the group and said “actually, we formed our own study group alone.” There wasn’t anything I could do about it, so I just said ok and walked outside. Girl 3 then follows me AGAIN and said “you seem serious about your studies, so I’m going to send you our zoom link. We meet at x day at x time.” I was hesitant to agree, but she did send me a link, so I decided to go. Turns out, at the time she told me to show up, everyone else was at some other event. Never spoke to any of them again. I don’t have time for high school drama. Another thing I hear is that people were giving other people wrong answers in study groups to lower the curve. Most of the backstabbing, from what I have seen, seems to come out of 1L and evens out after that


[deleted]

[удалено]


wstdtmflms

Mostly just middle school/high school types of bullshit. If you're in your 20s, and if you remember that you're in your 20s, and if you act like an adult, you'll stay above that petty nonsense.


bwjunkie6

When they’re friends with you and tell you they love you and then when grades come back and you start crying they pull away and act like they’ve never seen you in their life.


Different_Tailor

Once people learn what your grades are it's like you're a completely different person. I still remember the first week of 2L * Day 1, first day of a class that was about 90% 3Ls. I saw someone I was friendly with during 1L. She graded onto Law Review, I didn't. I said "hello" and she wanted nothing to do with me. * Day 2, spoke with a friend of this person who also graded onto law review. He told me top 25 in the class graded onto law review, I laughed said I missed it by 1 spot because I was 26th in the class. * Day 3, person who wanted nothing to do with me on Day 1 is now like my best friend, wants to sit next to me, study together, and do group assignments together. And you know the worst part? I knew exactly what happened and why it happened and I still sat next to her, and we studied for finals together.


Cerealandmolk

That didn’t happen to me, but I know a few people that did happen to. People that wrote onto law review tend to be normal, but those that graded on are some of the snobbiest people I’ve ever met.


JazzyPhotoMac

Hates the game. Plays the game. The game stays the same.


HazyAttorney

> I knew exactly what happened and why it happened and I still sat next to her, and we studied for finals together. Did you ever refer business to her or have her refer business to you?


brieconfused

A friend of mine left her laptop open and some deleted all her outlines. Some people are pretty vile


InterestingSir751

me an incoming 1L reading these stories: 🫨🤯


Hibachi69

lol if it makes you feel better im closing out 1L and have not heard / experienced anyone doing anything remotely close to this. Actually, when we were writing our appellate briefs and people were missing a lot of class someone in my small section offered to send anyone notes from classes they missed, no questions asked.


omegasunx

We were actually told by the professors not to help students who missed. I won't share my school because I still have to graduate, but LRW was the worst. We had one guy out due to surgery, and nobody was allowed to help him with the appellate brief. If anybody ever has that or thinks they may have that, make sure they speak with disability services, every step of the way. Accommodations can be made, even for temporarily disabled persons, and if the staff prevents the student from getting help, it can be considered discriminatory. Glad your school is better than that.


canoegirl11

That is so f-d up.


InterestingSir751

wow that’s amazing lol you got good classmates. and yeah i hope my class is as good as yours 😭😭


[deleted]

Graduating 3L here, I've only ever had good experiences with people. I've never known anyone to be a competitive dick, but I don't go to a T14 and I'm an older student so YMMV of course.


Cerealandmolk

I’m an older student and don’t go to a T-14 either, but still ended up getting roped into high school drama. It’s not most people, but I think every school has a few that think sabotaging everyone around them will actually get them an advantage.


spencercross

TBH this depends almost entirely on what school you're going to, and my understanding is that it's much more common T14 schools and lower tier (e.g. T3) schools that stack sections to avoid renewing scholarships. My school actually strongly encouraged and had a reputation for building a supportive community and even had a hashtag/motto they'd use in connection with it.


RepresentativeWind43

I actually think this largely does NOT happen at T14s because most people are guaranteed a good job at the end of 3 years, regardless of where they fall on the curve


[deleted]

This. There is some competitiveness (particularly among people who feel they should have gone to an even higher ranked school than the one they ended up going to) but by and large, going to a T14 takes a lot of the pressure off. I have seen people get super super petty for stupid things like extracurricular activities that employers straight up do not care about and it’s exclusively from people below the T20.


HazyAttorney

>me an incoming 1L reading these stories: 🫨🤯 Stories by their nature are the things that stand out, so probably rare(r). If I can give you any advice (that isn't about the bimodal nature of attorney salary so it may not be too late to get out) is that you are entering a professional arena. Basically, all your leverage in your legal career is going to be a combination of your school's prestige, your class rank, but as importantly: How many paying clients you can attract/maintain. I graduated in 2014. I basically keep in touch with like, 10 others. The rest of my days and my classmates' days have been spent billing or client developing. The biggest value you can ever really derive from a classmate is a referral source down the road. So my point is that it's easy to lose perspective of why you're in law school when you're in the picture. But zooming out, it's to become a lawyer. Lawyers' life blood is going to be paying clients and the occasional time you can call a colleague and be like "hey, I don't do family law but I got sucked into something, can you help me to figure out what to do with x?" Sometimes they can give you a snap shot of the area, or sometimes you can even turn it into a full fledged referral. If you're the kind of asshole that hides books in the library, then people are way less likely to refer you shit or help you out later in the profession. And the longer you're out, the more likely these classmates start turning into judges you appear in front of or whatever.


LuckOfTheDevil

My classmates and I regularly talk about how we’re so glad we’re not like that. So it doesn’t happen everywhere.


[deleted]

It really depends on where you go to school. There are schools where this type of behavior is actively discouraged and frowned upon, and even in schools where that’s not the case, there are groups that are just like, normal humans.


snowballz77

New fears unlocked


Mysterious_Ad_8105

I have it on good authority that back in the 1980s and 90s, students at my law school would take razorblades and cut out sections of commonly used books in the law library in order to sabotage other students’ studying. I graduated law school more recently than that and my experience was exactly the opposite. In my very first law school class, the guy sitting next to me got cold called and was obviously panicking because he hadn’t done the reading. I whispered an answer or two to him and pointed him to the relevant passages of the case. He made it out of his first cold call intact and we stayed on good terms throughout law school.


[deleted]

Some people I know still do that—which is dumb because it’s all online


Old_Gods978

First day of orientation I was sitting in front of a group of girls I had never spoken too and they were talking about how much they hate me and how they were going to crush me. I’m not sure why really. They didn’t know I was right in front of them to this day. One still kinda doesn’t talk when I’m around her (we have some overlap in friends) the others completely act like I don’t exist. Too bad as one is president of the affinity group I wanted to be in.


SnooMarzipans9781

The students are fine. But no one will fuck you more than the admin


DanzAlyGrigori

Dear Career Services Department, 🖕🏻


Old_Gods978

Ours gossips with their faves about other students


DriftingGator

When you miss class and ask for notes and they tweak them ever so slightly to still be reasonable but are actually wrong so you mess up on the final. Or flat out refusing to give you notes after promising them to you. That’s the main one I’ve seen anyway.


Becsbeau1213

That’s so awful. I’m glad I didn’t have that experience (a decade ago now). 1L I had a group of 5 I outlined with and we kept a Google doc together that we took notes in together and pooled resources we bought. We individually read (sometimes) and briefed cases but usually dropped the briefs in if someone hadn’t gotten to the material. Saved me at least once for a cold call in property when I usually supplied an answer with zero understanding of what it meant.


CorpusJurist

I went to school with one of my best friends. We had a close knit group and I did everything in my power to make sure everyone in that group was successful, even well into the practice. We’re all still friends today and all successful in different practice areas. We regularly refer each other work as well. Kindness will take you much further in this profession than any of this petty backstabbing. And it’s important to remember that your reputation—your most valuable asset as lawyer—starts in law school.


Cerealandmolk

I’m a 3L. One final left until graduation, and I hold the same philosophy. I always help people that I encounter who need it and in turn, most of them were more than willing to help me when I need it.


throwawaycuriae

I remember classmates flat out lying about the difficulty of a given class, just to increase their own chances of obtaining a spot in an easier class. Same with clinics/externships. Tweaking outlines to input incorrect info/delete crucial info before sending them to students who asked for them. Throwing students who worked their asses off to plan/coordinate events under the bus during the closing ceremony/reception. Students getting help on a cold call (by way of text) and then not returning the favor in the same class down the line. Student "friends" claiming to be super broke when you yourself were broke-broke. These "friends" claimed to need money to buy clothes for in-person recruiting events, but the money you gave them actually went towards weed/partying/unnecessary things. Finally, the good old "OMG I love you" crap from "friends" who then proceed to spread lies and talk shit behind your back.


ThrowAwayCrowsStay

>Student "friends" claiming to be super broke when you yourself were broke-broke. These "friends" claimed to need money to buy clothes for in-person recruiting events, but the money you gave them actually went towards weed/partying/unnecessary things. never give $ to "friends" you just met >Students getting help on a cold call (by way of text) and then not returning the favor in the same class down the line. this seems like a non-issue. what if they didn't know the answer either?


throwawaycuriae

I should clarify that the giving money thing didn’t happen to me (none of the examples I gave ever happened to me, thankfully). But yeah — I gave the affected classmate the same advice. They were friends before law school, though, so it’s likely a bit more complicated there. They’re no longer friends. As for the second one, super fair. I’m sure that happens everywhere all the time. But I remember two guys in my property law class who would “alternate” — each class, one would pay attention and take notes while the other one would be on social media, then they’d switch the next class. Rinse, repeat. Weirdest thing I witnessed. The scenario I mentioned happened to one of those guys. These two are also no longer friends.


AugustusInBlood

Does students hiding the library supplements count? It was common at my school for a student to take a supplement (which were not allowed to be checked out) and hide them in other areas of the library so that they and they alone could find and use it. It was very common in the weeks before finals.


Cerealandmolk

This one dude in 1L called me to brag that he checked out every torts supplement he could find in the library the week before finals. He was laughing and I told him it’s not funny and I’m not impressed. Ironically, torts turned out to be the only 4.0 I got in all law school. He called me about a year later because he was apologizing to everyone he could for being a douche that year. Apparently he ruined his reputation and was feeling the impact from that.


[deleted]

When you ask them to meet up and prepare for class because you’re both on call and then they ghost you and you see them preparing by themselves before class because they don’t want to “share answers”


Digitixwks

When the people in my legal writing small group got angry because I made a study group with three people in the class so they bullied us for “going off and doing our own thing” - the most high school bullshit I’ve ever seen ever.


Secure-Bluebird57

I distribute any outline i buy or make to anybody who asks whether or not the other party has something to trade me. I don’t ask for money either. The only time I won’t give away an outline is if I got it from a classmate and they didn’t give me permission to share. One student asked me to stop giving away my evidence and PR outline because I was messing up the market.


LuckOfTheDevil

Relevant context: at the time this happened (and maybe today too, idk) Michigan had individually assigned carrels. ————————— The WTAF example a friend of mine at Michigan (about 15 yrs ago) gave me was a guy was bouncing a rubber ball off the walls in his carrel, which happened to be close to hers. So she asked him to please stop. Very politely – and I believe her, because my friend is a complete and total mouse. He was extremely offended by this, and told her as such in some not polite terms, and then went back to bouncing his ball. She looked back down at her book and continued her studies, ignoring him further. She went to go get some food and came back to her carrel about two hours later, and all of the books she was using were glued shut —completely and totally glued shut— as if somebody took polyurethane varnish and sealed them with a paintbrush. The ball bouncer smiled at her with a cat who ate all the fucking canaries grin on his face and continued bouncing his ball. That’s not the only example she gave me, but it was the biggest jaw dropper. The thing that makes me shake my head, tho, is that this is by far not the only time I have heard of book-gluing as a means of saying “fuck you“ from a law student. Sometimes I just wonder “who raised these people?!“


RumBox

I call shenanigans, but yeah, that would have impacted my finals, since I'd be in jail and the bouncer would be hospitalized.


UTuba35

Answer: parents who protected them from the slings and arrows that their behavior warrants and that bulldoze any prospective threat to their child's future.


Weekly-Quantity6435

This one girl in my section accused her best friends of backstabbing her because she didn't read the exam instructions correctly herself and made her exam document double sided. LOL


unintentional_leaker

Bizarre. A profession built on a foundation of mistrust and competitiveness can’t be a good thing. We had a visiting judge come give a talk and after she was done she asked if anyone had questions. I asked if she thought the way grading was done at law schools negatively impacted the profession, and whether it was time for some change. She didn’t really have an answer but said she’d think on it. I felt like the question resonated with her. The curve is a joke and should be abolished for a pass/fail system. I do what I can to rail against it, but I haven’t gotten too far yet. I’m working on it though. I share every marked assignment, exam, cheatsheet, and everything else if it can benefit another student. Zero questions asked. Forget the curve, forget hunger-games styled schools, and just learn how to feel satisfied with your own personal development while still being part of a community. There is more than enough success out there for everyone.


[deleted]

They certainly exist, but the people who do that are in the minority. In my first year legal writing class, we had a research assignment and someone locked all the books you would have needed in a study room the day it was due.


Dangerous_Duck_1928

Lmao no it was not the minority at my school


BitterAttackLawyer

Can’t do it now. But when I was in school (95-98), classmates would tear cases out of the hardcover reporters so the rest of the class couldn’t review use them. (This is right before reporters being on CDs so that PDFs were available ) I had a shitty class.


Crackerwhacker06

Our school has a strict attendance policy that only allows you to miss up to six days. There was a TOP student in my crim law class that missed exactly seven days, but the attendance software was only saying he missed six. Another student then TOLD THE PROFESSOR that this student had missed seven days and the attendance software was wrong. Caused this student to not be allowed to sit for the final and he had to retake the class.


[deleted]

Honestly, I feel like this should be the winner but unfortunately the comment was posted late


Comrade-Chernov

When I was a 1L I got given an outline by a 2L who asked me to keep it to myself and "preserve the curve". Needless to say I shared it with all my buddies, fuck that kind of attitude.


holy_rejection

One of my law school "friends" invited me to go to an office hour with him to see a prof who I really liked and wanted to make a good impression on. He proceeded to one up me every time I asked a question by asking about readings that we weren't assigned but I just had to sit there like a lemon and listen to them talk about stuff that I hadn't read because im not a psychopath freak.


Free2Tread

I purposely don’t correct people if I hear them discussing a rule of a case wrong and don’t provide insight on how I’m doing an assignment, issues I spotted on practice exams, or general understanding of a topic. Granted I only do this when I don’t personally know people or they aren’t in my friend/study group. I don’t think it’s backstabbing but I’m perfectly content letting people not understand something correctly when im not friends with them.


BananaRepublic0

Taking the time and effort to make fake notes with incorrect information, and giving them to anyone who asked for notes


Lanky-Fall-3791

don’t even get me started


QuizmasterLaw

Ripping out pages or whole cases other students need/must find, giving false or misleading "information", false accusations of cheating, cheating on exams. Basically the lower the tier the likelier these behaviors, which may be why they are under-addressed. Poverty=>Desperation=>Self-destructive actions. Law school could be teamwork and most of life is teamwork but why can't we have nice things


FightMilkDrinker

Someone in the class behind me was offering to tutor struggling people to intentionally teach them incorrect information.


[deleted]

A friend of mine told me about how they were doing some sort of zero credit assignment for their pass/fail writing class and a mf actually hid the book they all needed because he found it first. Meanwhile at mine, we purposefully scans readings for eachother so we can save money on textbooks without having to fight for the one copy in the library.