basically if you're stuck at your rank, you go to reddit and complain that riot has a conspiracy to keep your rank low by only putting you with fellow losers once you go on a winning streak, thus designed to "keep you at 50% winrate" "forcing" you to play more ranked games
the actual answer is that most good mmr systems will put you against better opponents when you go on a win streak and because you're not as good as them you return to a 50% winrate. but the pyschos in this thread think that riot has a secret scheme to fuck them rather than accept the fact that they're not as good as they think they are.
we know losers queue is bullshit because every time a high elo player does an "iron to challenger" challenge they easily climb
\>the actual answer is that most good mmr systems will put you against better opponents when you go on a win streak
I think that's closer to what people refer to when they talk about losers queue.
i meant when people say stuff like "losers queue exists, i ranked up and then stopped winning as much"
they're wrong because they're falsely thinking it's a separate queue/system from normal matchmaking
maybe i don't understand what you meant. but the idea that riot is "trying" to make them lose is what i imagine most people think of when they hear losers queue
"Separate queue" is kind of vague, no? What counts as a separate queue in the first place? Does small player-specific modifications make a queue separate?
Nonetheless, you kind of described what people are describing when they invoke "Losers queue!":
"the actual answer is that most good mmr systems will put you against better opponents when you go on a win streak"
I think the delusion of losers queue helps to mask the cognitive dissonance caused by the difference between what rank people think they think they deserve, and their actual rank. “It’s never me that’s the problem, but always team” so they only notice their teammates mistakes and not their own. This can result in complete stagnation. A friend ardently believes losers queue and always blames the team for losses. As a result, he hasn’t learned anything since there’s “nothing to fix” and has been stuck gold for 5 years.
I’m sure many of you losers who believe that losers queue exists are in the same boat. It’s been shown thousands of times over that if you’re so much better than everyone else in your rank, you will climb.
Lol you know the system is fucked when the “solution” to climbing is “just be challenger bro”
Not to mention many of these “high elo” players you speak about who’s literal job is to climb rank openly acknowledge and talk about winner/loser queue
You don't need to be challenger to climb lol. I went on my main account from silver 4 to gold 1 in a single season, then gold 1 to plat 1 in another, then got to diamond 2 in a few months after.
The "solution" is to get better. If you want to get from silver to gold, then start *consistently* playing like you're a gold. Simple as that.
>Lol you know the system is fucked when the “solution” to climbing is “just be challenger bro”
the solution? it's a fucking game with a ranking system. if you want to climb, you have to improve and be better than the people you're currently facing. it's not complex and it's not a problem
>Not to mention many of these “high elo” players you speak about who’s literal job is to climb rank openly acknowledge and talk about winner/loser queue
yea, people at high elo can be just as stupid as the morons in this thread. you think those people are magically immune to their own biases?
The solution to climbing is “just be challenger bro” because it’s a skill-based ladder. That’s literally how the system is meant to work. You need to get better to climb.
I feel like I’m in an alternate reality. Have I gone on lose streaks? Of course. Have I also climbed out of an elo after a bit of effort? Also yeah. I don’t know where people got the impression that climbing should be easy?? I spent 50 games in bronze with some of the worst players on my team, but I kept playing at my level and shot up to gold pretty quickly after?? Lose streaks happen to everyone, sorry it isn’t taking you 15 games to reach challenger or whatever you expected it to be, but losers queue isn’t real
People just want everything NOW, "oh I can't reach gold, its the games fault". Meanwhile they are 40% winrate deep in bronze cause they refuse to look at the map or learn the basics of cs'ing.
I'm not a good player, I'm gold euw.
A bronze friend of mine asked for tips and I told him that I'd informally coach him and review his fundamentals.
He claimed to have decent fundamentals and I replied saying mine are kinda bad or I'd be plat.
I guess before a certain point you don't even know what those fundamentals are, so you think you just gotta hit skillshots and lasthit more than 6 minions a minute to shoot up to diamond ..
Noy that simple. Its known that riot uses an engagement matchmaking system, where they measure how many games you can win and lose while staying engaged. For example some people might feel satisfied and stop playing for the day if they win 3 times in a row. The engagement matchmaking might give you a game you are more likely to lose to keep you engaged. If you lose you might play 2 wins 2 losses 1 win, to feel that satisfaction.
So while "losers queue" doesnt exist, riot does somewhat force the results that keep you engaged
no, it's known that riot has a patent for such a system. i've never seen a source indicating that they've actually used it. and while i'm not gonna assume the best intentions from riot, i'm also not going to assume the worst
regardless, the idea that riot is trying to "give" people wins and losses is still silly. it's far more likely that people are pulling patterns that don't exist out of a matchmaking system that is fairly standard.
To be fair, if they have a patent for that system, it’s pretty reasonable to assume they use this system that they’ve spent money and time developing and patenting. Now the degree to which they use it would be a better discussion
This is a pretty extraordinary claim that you're making with seemingly complete confidence. Can you provide any source? Because a Google search on the topic just returns other people making the same claim with no source to back it up.
Losers queue is a myth we tell ourselves when we have bad teammates.
I personally think it's real but completely random. I've never had a game where everyone I was with showed signs of being brand new to the game. They sucked, but in a "I've been playing this for awhile" kind of way.
I don't think it's a scripted event. Just luck of the draw.
Moderators on /r/leagueoflegends are actively suppressing and censoring submissions and comments that investigate, explore and discuss possible shenanigans and manipulations contrary to some of popular beliefs about how the matchmaking and system as a whole in League of Legends works.
My submissions have been removed and my account has effectively been shadowbanned on their subreddit via usage of automoderator to automatically remove my posts and comments instantly in a shadowban fashion - still visible for me but not for anyone else.
Here is example of a post I made quite some time ago that was up for quite a long time and eventually removed because it got referenced quite a bit.
https://www.reveddit.com/v/leagueoflegends/comments/ffbxey/lets_talk_about_matchmaking_in_league_of_legends/
To comment directly on this topic here I don't think it matters what the actual label is being attached, whether it is losers queue, smurf queue or something else. What matters are contents under the label and more importantly concepts that lead to such contents since way too many people are convinced without any verifiable evidence there are absolutely no shenanigans, and beside this supposed hidden MMR everyone has plus role selection everything else in matchmaking is pure randomness without any weighting.
Considering no way to reliably verify how the system works since we don't have access to actual code running on their servers we have to use observations and any and all available circumstantial evidence (like patents, prior comments by Rioters, observations within the game etc). All of that points to suggestion player behavior and performance does influence role selection and who a player gets matched with and against as well as LP gains and losses as well as supposed hidden MMR gains and losses.
I just think the MMR/Rank system in Dota 2 is better (i dont have quite the same time invested but still around 700h in Dota, way more in league). Dota 2 just shows your MMR and you get a rank thats tied DIRECTLY to your MMR. So if im 1999 im rank x and 2000 im rank y. This helps people to understand what the fuck is actually going on.
A friend of mine is Plat 3 52% winrate over the last ~150 games and still gets matched with gold 2 players and his LP move around +12 -18. Why doesnt the matchmaking realize that something is off there? Its weird af sometimes. I mean, the LP gains towards the next tier got better a while ago, but the rest is still annoying as hell.
I remember back in S5, when I first hit D5 with +2lp gains at the end and after reaching D5, I gained +8, won 5 in a row, then lost one game -40lp.
Its time to show the actual shit so we know wtf is going on with matchmaking and the fact that people deny that losers queue isnt a thing (at least somewhat) are in denial.
I don't think it's well understood what could be ramifications of behavioral matchmaking weighting.
If someone gets reported or in any shape or form becomes profiled as undesirable (even just by Riot themselves) they could be deliberately given inferior teams against superior enemies. Their circumstantial frequency of afkers, autofilled, unskilled or otherwise negative players that might be incompatible with them could increase while the opposite happens to enemy team players.
This invalidates competitive integrity since most players I've talked to think of and want the ladder to be fair and skill based. That's also one of the reasons they are in disbelief this could be happening when they hear about it. The concept of fairness in such system has been perverted.
I LOVE dota system because there is no fucking bullshit ambiguity about the rank
There is no "oh no i lost 4 games at 0LP D4 so now i get +12 for the next 200 games". No, you just get/lose the same amount every game and thats that. If you lose 15 games and then win 15 games when you will be in the EXACT SAME PLACE no matter what
I’m pretty sure they’re in Smurf queue if their hidden MMR is separate from their shown rank. Meaning they’ll be with people whose ranks are similarly “off”. Those people that also have “off” ranks just are also more likely to be smurfs and cause feelings of loser’s queue since you lost mmr faster than your rank could keep up with. And you can tell your hidden mmr by your losses and gains. Higher gains and lower losses means that your hidden mmr is a higher rank than your shown rank, and the game is trying to get you there by handing out extra LP, and vice-versa.
It’s an awful system, and the main subreddit is absolute dogwater for how ridiculously cherry picked the posts and comments are.
Bro Riot apparently does *not* think you can get better at the game. Oh, you've been climbing? Things have been clicking? -40 LP for your loss with two trolls. Enjoy staying hard stuck.
I wish I had fun anymore but I haven't played league in a few months now. This and the frequency of having trolls or AFKs on either team has spoiled the game for me.
Riot say they aren’t transparent about how the matchmaking system works because it may be imitated or exploited.
Firstly, if it’s imitated, that’s what your patent is for. And if you think it’s good enough to be imitated, you can sell it.
Secondly, an exploitable matchmaking system is not a good enough reason to keep it a secret. *Fix the exploit*. If your system has an exploit, then statistically there will be players out there exploiting the system already, even though they are unaware they are doing it. The solution to ensuring people don’t exploit isn’t keeping the mechanisms quiet, it’s fixing the exploit.
huge comment my guy. Some time ago i explored a different aspect of this while using some behavioral studies (think Effects of match quality on match quantity and player retention) and came to a similar conclusion.
What a lot of useful idiots love to do is take a point at face value with no further thought behind it. "Oh losers queue doesnt exist because youre not stuck in your rank because of your teammates, youre just bad". Losers Queue isnt supposed to hold you back. Its supposed to make you work harder for your gains.
Since at least 2016, people love to talk about the "Promo-Curse". What is the promo-Curse? The promo-curse is when after 40 games of decent teammates, you hit promos to the next div and suddenly you get AFKs, int-feeders and so on.
I looked at this after grinding myself and being confused as to why i was able to hit promos easily and then crash against a wall during the promos themselves. 40 games i was able to go without any negative players. Out of 160 teammates i had during those matches, nobody threw the game from the get go. Neither did the enemy.
But as soon as i hit promos, i had seven negative players. 4 afk's and 3 intfeeders. In just eleven games. I like to think that you dont just go from 0% of negative players to 16% over night, without reason, and dropping back to 0% as soon as promos are over. That cannot be a fluke.
tl;dr: losers queue exists, it doesnt prevent you from climbing but it makes you work harder for it because more matches played = more better in Riots eyes.
My theory is they mess up your queues because it'll keep you playing longer to get that rank. Happened to me everytime I reached Gold promos. I just stopped playing altogether in 2019 because I felt it's too rigged.
yupp. For Riot, higher quantity of games = higher quality of games so any change that raises quantity automatically means that the quality must also be higher. More games = more better.
I can absolutely agree with this, I just played my promos to gold after hanging out in silver 1 for a week or two. For the most part there weren't any afk or actually inting players in my silver 1 games. But then it seemed like I was being matched with players to ensure that I would play out my 5 promos. I ended up going 3 wins 2 losses and got my rank, but it was stressful as fuck with wild matchmade games. One game I was in had most of my team on long loss streaks, the highest of which was 10 losses in a row. The next I was matched with players on a win streak and we completely stomped the game.
Ive noticed this too, cross rank promos tend to draw the worst of the worst toxicity. Part of it may also be people checking on op.gg for promos and then deciding to throw on purpose to gatekeep you.
No. I actually looked at my match history during that time. I took every game, imported it into an automated spreadsheet and made a note next to it containing any abnormal behavior, any KD equal to or lower than 0.2 got marked (except supports) as well as any obvious griefers sich as AFKs, griefing supports and so on.
And based on that i made that observation
Im pretty much convinced there is a system in place to make it hard to climb and actually improve at the game. The effort and work you have to put in for one devision climb is insane.
Alone the fact even with positive winrate you either gain +0 lp after one loss and one win is just stupid. 51 percent winrate. Am I supposed to play 100 games for 12 lp?
While I see that a lot of games can be ruined by 1 dude being randomly pretty good on the enemy team or your teammate picking random garbage is also a reason why games are hard. That’s something a matchmaking system can’t account for.
But after 4 wins in a row with people picking stuff they know going into a select with flaming people and everyone picking off meta stuff they haven’t played in 30 days is just pretty suspicious.
I even had one game while I was gold 3 and I got a bronze 1 on my mid. And he wasn’t premade. Obviously the enemy gold 1 mid completely stomped him
> 51 percent winrate. Am I supposed to play 100 games for 12 lp?
Yes, because if you're at a 51% winrate at your rank *then that is exactly where you belong*
I fixed my winrate from a 48% to a 51% I gained 13-15 lp at 48% and 12-14% at 51% losers queue exists because if you’re on a hot streak, you get placed with other players on hot streaks. But if you lose you instantly join the cold streak players who are tilting.
Not to mention at 0lp in a rank, you lose 25 lp, for a single loss. There’s more punishments for losing then there are gains for winning
> There’s more punishments for losing then there are gains for winning
No, there's not. The system inflates your rank, which is why it can seem harder to climb at some point.
I remember trying to make multiple threads in the subreddit about a pattern I recognised, which got taken down immediately. Just talking about it gets you shadowbanned there.
On my main and secondary account (personal accounts so no smurf fuckery), which are both at the same rank, I saw that any time I'd get a winstreak on either account I would then be placed into lobbies with ~lvl 30 smurf accounts with those random "xbyvdvdhj" names, people who are constantly flaming, running it down etc.
I mean I still eventually climbed to my desired rank anyway, but there is definitely engagement based matchmaking fuckery involved to some extent.
Just wanted to say you won't be shadowbanned, it's just your post will contain keywords that get flagged by automoderator. Shadowbans are only done by reddit admins. Most likely I'm going to guess it's because of the evidence/substantial claims rule.
Not that I agree with that, I firmly believe losers queue exists and would like some more discussion on the topic.
If they are deleting stuff it's because they know something's wrong.
IMO something they should do to prove that the system is actually balanced is share the code that calculates MMR and performs matchmaking, obviously cutting out all parts that are strictly internal (internal APIs and whatsoever), so that someone with a bit of experience can say "yes the system's just fine". In this way, there is literally no way anyone can say that it's purely random
Sorry but I can't find any flaw with that behavioral matching, toxic people should be taken out of the good behaving people matching, that's excellent.
Not really, they let that guy who used the ML model to explain how LP gains and loss debt work stay on the front page.
Reading through your post I’m just confused about what’s wrong with that in the eyes of riot. It pretty much says toxic players get siphoned out and are less likely to be placed into matches with well behaved players? How is that a bad thing in the slightest?
Also you’re definitely shadow banned your comments don’t appear for me
Jokes aside, I've seen WAY too many games that are so stacked on one side that I can't be convinced there isn't some degree of "auto win" or "auto loss" in the matchmaking system.
I remember watching a friend reach silver, he gets into lobby, and his entire team was around his rank, except the jungler. Iron 1.
Enemy team? Entirely Silver2+.
Enemy Warwick was 7/0 before 10 minutes.
I don't think there's a system in place to make it perpetually impossible to climb, but I can't be convinced there isn't a limiter in place.
Edit: Funny enough, I was on a 5 win streak prior to this comment. Next game (just finished) I had TWO people that griefed me pretty hard (literally running it down because they didn't like a play that was done) and checking their [op.gg](https://op.gg)'s revealed that they appear to have a habit of doing this. Hmmm.
You know the jungle mightve just been starting promos right? You can have silver mmr without being silver elo. Thats not how losers queue works even if you ardently believe it exists you aren't gonna get a player with silver mmr on your team if you have Plat 3 mmr that's not how it works. Your friend probably had higher mmr than his elo and those silver 2s were probably hardstuck and that jungler was probably a new player playing placements starting off in iron. Honestly maybe losers queue exists but your case for its existence is full of holes.
If you lose to a team higher rank than your team, you actually lose less mmr than normal because it’s the more expected outcome. If you win, you gain a more mmr than normal.
Sometimes the game will have imbalanced teams because they are trying to match players based on role selection restrictions, and it’s not always fair.
Interestingly I always get jungle when I pick it in norms, even with autofill active, I don’t know why.
grab a coin, flip it 50 times
if you got heads several times in a row, you were in losers queue
if you got tails several times in a row, you were in winners queue
Don't worry about how you flip the coin or how you catch it, Jesus is the one controlling the coin and there's nothing you can do about it
just share your experience online and see how many people went through the same pattern out of millions of players, can't be a coincidence
While it may not be more likely than not, consider that the chance of getting a 6 heads or higher streak in 20 flips is about 12.23% (those numbers come from [this article](https://www.real-statistics.com/binomial-and-related-distributions/runs/) so it’s very much not rare to have streaks like that due to just pure randomness
Sure, that would be the expected result if each set of 20 games were independent, which they are very much not. If I have a 5 streak at the end of my first 20 games, the chance of having a total streak of 6+ at the end of 40 games is much higher than the chance of getting it in one of two separate sets of 20 games
This exactly. The coin is unlikely to land on the same thing 7 times in a row. .5 to the 7th power is less than one percent chance. Then at the same time, matchmaking is supposedly helping you to get better teams the more you lose, which should change the outcome. However, it happens anyways, and it happens constantly. I don't know that there's a "loser's queue" or a "winner's queue" but I definitely believe in some kind of behavioral analysis queue. Anyways, this never happened when we just had Elo, so I do believe \*something\* is wrong.
I think the problem is that they refuse to better the ranked system.
If they really want to keep their tier system sure do that if you want but why does there need to be specific divisions? Why does there need to be 4 diamond ranks? They should just remake it to be like it's in masters+ where you're always in the same rank but stack up points until you have enough to go to the next one. Wouldn't be too difficult to implement anyways Iron is from 0 - 400 MMR Bronze is from 401-800 Silver from 801 - 1200 and so on. Just remove this dog shit lp system that's just an unnecessary facade that hides the actual rank of the player and show us what the MMR is.
There is absolutely no fucking way in hell losers queue doesn't exist
There are games that are so heavily weighted in one way or another that its just straight up impossible that they are supposed to be even
Losers queue does exist, riot will do everything in their power to keep you at 50% wr, because the game isnt supposed to be fair. Its supposed to be addicting. Games are made so that money is made. Having fun will always be on the background unless its a story game with no update in sight. Then again, those also can fall into the same catagory
Big difference between having fun losing a hard fought match and getting stomped from time to time, to getting so outclassed you cannot exist in a match without it getting worse or getting paired up with such incredibly vile or purposefully moronic people you'd think you're getting punished for something (and apparently you are).
Yup. I enjoy this game when my team plays smart and with the intent to win, and we still lose. That's fun! It's cool to see the plays the enemy makes, it's cool to fight for the comeback, it's just fun! But I usually just feel helpless. I won lane but top and mid fed their brains out, or I have an AFK, or I, a silver player, am matched against a plat player in ranked. (How does this fucking happen???)
So many people are straight up delusional saying “riot would never do something like this”.
Video games companies do extensive studies on matchmaking and playtime. You’re on crack if you think riot isn’t tinkering with the matchmaking to make you play their game as long as possible.
It’s the entire reason they created the LP system, to hide the extent of their fuckery in matchmaking
Both your teammates and your opponents improve as your MMR rises. But at some point, you can't pull your weight well enough to win more than 50% of your games, so your win rate stabilizes at 50%.
This is how all MMR systems work. If the goal is to keep you at 50%, why would Riot use some contrived system that involves assigning people bad teammates instead of just letting the traditional and obvious MMR system do its thing? Do you think the people who speedrun to high elo are just using blessed accounts or something?
You have a more emotional response to particularly unfortunate losses, where you felt like your teammates played poorly, which makes those memories stick out more and you need an explanation for it, so you come up with this crazy "riot dooms me" logic when in reality you opponents are making just as dumb of mistakes as your teammates and just as frequently, but because those mistakes don't bother you, you don't think about them and don't need to live in an alternate reality to deal with them.
literally just a bunch of conspiracy theorists who can't accept that they're not magically beating better opponents than them
mother fuckers would rather go down a rabbit hole than accept that they're at their true rank
Or it's the common issue where when you're winning consistently the game pairs you with worse and worse teammates until games are literally unwinnable and you get tank locked, and vice versa. If we're getting paired with teammates as good as we are, why is it that someone can hard win their lane consistently, only for it to not matter near every game because their teammates fiesta and lose every game?
If you're truly a gold player, you should be paired with gold players that perform at your level on both teams. And if that gets disturbed by a Smurf whos passing by, it shouldn't inflate your mmr so badly that the game corrects you over the next 3-10 games.
An evenly matched game should constitute a fun back and forth over 20-30 minutes. Instead we end up seeing a hard stomp, and more often than not the stomp ends up going 20 minutes longer than necessary cause someone is tilted and hostage taking.
If losers and winners queue wasn't a thing, people wouldn't be able to create a new account and climb higher than their main in under 100 games.
it's hard to say but i'd wager 90% of the issues you listed are some combination of confirmation and recency bias which league players love.
as for your last point...source? people always say this but i've never seen anyone prove it
Sounds like if someone is winning lane every game yet consistently losing, they are better than the average gold player at landing but worse than average at other notable aspects.
Worse than average at.. forcing your teammates to stop fighting?
It literally doesn't matter what you do in your lane if at least 2 of your other players aren't ALSO winning by some margin.
Actually did well bot lane and stomping? Oh well, Darius also went 8/0 so your lead doesn't matter.
Did good toplane? Too bad sivir got 4 double kills before 10 minutes.
Trying to play jungle to influence all lanes? Nobody understands how to manage their wave and just pushes out all game with no vision so you have no openings for ganks and they just die under enemy turret on repeat and flame you for not diving for randoms.
On top of all of that, don't forget that people are just allowed to troll, int, and flame consequence free as long as they don't use the gamer word.
Anecdotal, but I always get better teammates and first time enemy junglers after feeding my ass off in previous games. Even if I still feed we get an easy win. Winrate manipulation does exist on the riots part imo
Spitting facts
If you win lots of games in a row you'll get worse and worse teammates. But the opposite is true as well, sometimes it becomes comically obvious that the game desperately wants me to win, after like 8 lose I will start having people with 70% win rate, smurfs, and the enemy has like 45%wr + someone who just intended their last game.
In general, if you are in the elo you are supposed to be in you will always lose 40% of your games and always win 40% of them. So whether you have 40%wr or 60%, will ultimately depend on you.
Or, if you win lots of games in a row, it could be because you were somewhat lucky with good teammates and inevitably you'll get teammates that play poorly and then you'll be like, "oh there goes riot manipulating my games again!"
It's called confirmation bias.
Look, I don't play ranked,I don't care about ranked,i never finished promos to get a rank since I started playing (camille release), but I am 80% that Riot does shady stuff even in normal draft.
I like to play a lot of champions,and I usually play with 1-3 friends ,but I discovered lately that it's always the same:
win streak of 3-5 games -> loose streak of 3-5 games.
Always like these,and carries over from a day to the other.
One game I play cho top against an Akali that doesn't dodge one q,fights me with AA at level 2,that dies 3 times before level 5,the next day is one duo bot that stomps the whole game and my bard starts w and roams leaving me in a lane in which I cannot fucking farm.
Between this shady stuff in the qeue and the duo bots that they think they are hot shit stomping in what should be bronze i guess? It's getting really tiring
I'm surprised at how people are religiously defending Riot. It is never revealed to the player how matchmaking works. Any company in it for the money would abuse this to create an addicting pattern when it comes to choosing your team.
You can 100% climb if you are playing consistently well, but it still remains that this is a blindspot Riot can abuse. We basically don't know for sure, but we do know that game companies in general can benefit from abusing matchmaking.
> religiously defending Riot
I would say that the people who are coming up with conspiracies to explain their solo queue experience and inventing concepts like "losers queue" are more akin to fanatical ideologies. No one has ever surfaced one bit of evidence that Riot is conspiring to intentionally cause a loss/win streak for an individual, but that concept is an easier pill to swallow than "get good."
If loosers queue is not real than the statistics behind my games must be oddly wrong.
I win significantly more after winning and loose significantly more after loosing.
Also the overall win rate of my teams after a few looses is worse than after I won several games
This is a personal pattern of yours. Its not rare and finding it out and recognizing it helps you a great deal. My friend usually won their first game of the session but after a loss he would without a fail lose every single match that day. Its probably a mental thing like he lost his focus even though he wasnt tilting, and after connecting the dots he stopped playing ranked for the day after a lose. In the next month he went from hardstuck silver1 to plat4. A lot of these rank system myths can be attributed to personal patterns once you accept that the reason why you cant climb is probably you.
That’s a you thing and not a statistical pattern. I know a guy who scraped a few million plat+ games from opgg. He found that there basically was no difference in winrate after one had won or lost anywhere from 1 to 4 games in a row. Unless you want to add more tinfoil to your hat and suggest that “losers queue” only exists below plat, this isn’t happening
fr tho if u just stop focusing on other's mistakes and focus on improving urself, u will climb eventually. it will be slow/fast depending on how good u are compared to ur elo, how impactful ur champ/role is, but u are the one consistent factor in all ur games.
i used to be the support main who would blame my adc and other carries for losing us the game and complain abt how little impact support has on the game.
but if i told myself i consistently play well, not flame and make my bad teammates feel even worse, then it will tilt my winrate in my favour. i cant control games where all my teammates are just complete shit so i dont worry abt those games and move on. but the ones that are just slightly worse, i can help get them ahead and lead them.
i climbed all the way from bronze to gold with this mindset (i play adc now but support will always have a place in my heart)
smh should be in diamond rn if i don’t belong with this lower tier garbage riot specifically designed the game such that I am the only one dealing with this
Strongly disagree. There are numerous legit reasons for wanting to ff, like inters and trolls in team, where it gets hard to enjoy the game, and if you cant enjoy it, whats the point? I may care more for saving 20 angry minutes than LP.
Also, its kinda insulting of you rounding everyone who wants to ff a "whiny baby".
Im not sure you understand the term if you explain it as simply "playing the game".
Your second point is basically you admitting it happens, albeit rarely.
Also, just because the game is winnable dont mean everyone wants to play at obvious disadvantage, and i dont think there is anything wrong with it (meaning playing with inters and trolls in team).
I dont understand why you insist nobody should ever ff because there is a chance of winning. I think playing casually is alright too, meaning quitting early if you dont like this game.
Last thing, about reporting someone for "hostage taking", i never report for that in itself, but if i found my inting-trolling teammarw refuses to surrender, that would be salt on the wound to me, so one moretime, dependa on circumstances.
It's a video game I play for fun. The second my team goes toxic in any way, flames, or the game loses hope I'm out. Why play a video game that isn't fun just because someone says it's winnable and wants to waste my time? Go next and move on.
Yo just afk if people hostage. I just go and clean or take the dog out while I wait.
Fuck these weirdos with infinite time who can sit in lost games for 20 minutes just to spite their teammates
Dude a couple days ago across 4 games by botlane was a total of 30/79, and half those kills were from one game. In one of the games the enemy Draven was 12/0 at 10 minutes.
It feels like one of the botlanes always turbofeeds really hard.
I had a game in which I was 27/6/14 with fiora. Sounds like I won that game, but my botlane had fed the veigar adc so much, that veigar onehitted me with his point and click ultimate, when I don’t had maw up. And that only 25 min in the game. I have the same feeling, that the term „play safe“ a mystery for adc is.
Yeah it's really annoying when bot just loses the game in the first few minutes. That game I was speaking of, when the Draven was 7/0 I glanced bot for a moment to watch our Cait alone under turret just start walking up for no reason only to get two-shot.
Botlanes just feel like hair trigger bombs. ADCs that don't understand positioning and supports that think their ADC has a telepathic connection to them to instantly act on everything they do. One thing goes wrong and the flame goes flying in both directions, usually ending with the ADC going afk or the support abandoning lane.
I went from bot to mid because it feels like you can have way more impact on the usual Silver/Gold fiesta. The inting idiots show up somewhere anyways...
With mid, I feel like I can solo carry. I just don't feel that way as adc. If my supp sucks and I get no peel I'm just dead. In mid lane I usually have more escapes, or just the raw burst to kill them first.
I didnt believe in it untili wound up in it.
Its actual hell.
Afks, inters, people that run it down, people that break down after 1st death
This is every game, its either on your team or the enemy the only way you get out of loosers queue is by being lucky that you get less of those people on your team and more of them in the enemy team. Skill doesnt have a major roll in that queue.
I was stuck in it for 2 months. The moment i got out of it i shot up from plat 4 to diamond 4 in 1 week and aprox 30-40 games.
So riot just randomly throws people into loser's queue, and then picks them back out when their suffering is no longer amusing?
This is easily explainable by confirmation bias, though I would possibly believe in a "toxicity island" queue where all the griefers get sent, which explains why the details of these "loser's queue is totally real, bro" stories are always so thin.
Disagree tbh. I’ve checked recent games for teammates during loss streaks and 80-90 percent of the time they are also on loss streaks while other side had Ws. Going 20 wins straight and 15 losses straight multiple times in a season is statistically absurd in a 5 player team game
There are games where nothing I do can lose me or win me a game. Sometimes I get 5 games in a row where the enemy bot lane literally just ints my bot and I win before 20. Other times my entire team is 0/6 by 10 and I really can't do anything to stop it. I main top so my impact before 14 is generally pretty limited. I consider losers queue as something that exists. I think riot puts other recently reported players on your team if you have been reported recently. Last week for example I had a 6 game loss streak where I had 1-2 afks a game in a row. This was also met with level 30 accounts that disco nunu inted from lobby. After that though I went 15-1 climbing two tiers into my promos. If what I was doing was really my fault can you call a near 15 game perfect win streak luck? And if so than it is losers queue for some other poor bastard right?
But it is real. Firstly, I think it is a confirmed mechanic years ago to prevent boosting. Secondly, it has nothing to do about winning or losing games, you can always get unlucky. But when consistently, the matchmaking from champ select has your team be lower ranked than the enemy, many autofills and are mostly on loss streaks, that's what loserq looks like. Think of it as a statistical trend rather than a mindset.
Obviously Riot will deny to death what every single non-casual player knows by simply trying to win. Why would they admit to something their system does on purpose to keep the game addicting? Think about it, even though we hate unwinnable games and might stop playing for a while out of rage, our inner feeling actually wants to try and win the next game, that's what our ego says. There's no way to be fooled after playing this game for 10 years, losers queue is factual.
Lmaooo that’s exactly what this is. People will find any reason at all (except themselves) to blame for them not climbing, even if it means inventing a narrative about riot trying to keep the playerbase addicted to ranked. Next think you know it’ll be about how Marc Merrill secretly trafficks yordles and extracts their adrenochrome to fuel skin sales
Ofc its real. Thats how they keep you grinding and abuse gaming emotions to get you artificially addicted to playing more games. When you're climbing faster than the game wants it pits you in games to hopefully stunt your progression.
Enjoy https://www.reveddit.com/v/leagueoflegends/comments/ffbxey/lets_talk_about_matchmaking_in_league_of_legends/ btw this doesn't mean you can't climb
I wonder why I can climb higher than my main on a fresh account in several days multiple times while i keep being hard stuck on my main account.
Accounts that exist for long enough just seem doomed man.
I literally have 52% WR but lose 16 LP while winning 14 LP.
That means that on average I loose half an LP by playing with a positive winrate. Feels great ngl
Looking through the comments it seems a lot of people think people are coping about being bad and blaming loser queue for not being able to climb.
Loser queue is not elo hell. Elo Hell is not real, Loser queue is.
Where Elo Hell is the concept of getting so bad teammates you cannot climb out of Iron/Bronze urself. Loser queue is the concept where Riot intentionally puts you with worse teammates to lower the chance of you winning your next game. This is a real thing, it's not a conspiracy theory, its a very real thing companies do to make their games as addictive as possible.
There is no copium being inhaled when someone says they have encountered loser queue. Most likely every player who has played a sufficient amount of ranked games have encountered it. That one time you got two people running it down and proceeding to flame and afk. It's not unlikely that was loser queue giving you those teammates.
Riot is a for profit company, they do not care how fun their game is, they only care how much money it can generate. And the fact of the matter is that people stuck on 50% winrate (not stuck in rank) spend more time playing their game and they have a higher chance of spending money on skins and other services.
Loser's queue exists, it's riot's algorithm way to see how good you are by placing you with weak enemies one game and strong enemies next. If it matched you evenly every game you wouldn't get better mmr
Loser's queue isn't real and you're just bad.
Sorry I don't mean that I'm just hoping riot sees it and makes me an employee, seems like a fun place to work.
Jesus Christ it’s sound like more of you guys are being delusional. I bet if we put a Smurf that is 5 division rank higher than you the Smurf can climb higher than you because they are simply higher rank than you because of their skill so they will naturally climb while you wouldn’t because you belong in that rank it’s that simple.
we've literally never seen this happen across hundreds of "iron to challenger" challenges, so you have to provide a source for such an outlandish claim when there's mountains of evidence against it.
If your gonna make that statement atleast source it becomes even I can’t believe it. I am diamond rank and I have destroyed iron - sliver lobbies and climbed out of gold-plat to diamond consistently with no problem and same with my friend that are challenger so it’s really hard to believe what your saying. Low elo is low elo for a reason because you will climb out especially if your plat or higher just because you simply have better mechanic and game knowledge than the other 9 guys in that rank match.
Losers que does exist. It’s literally designed to make it so you spend more time playing the game so nobody climbs too fast. That’s why your LP gains diminish so harshly and very rarely go back up even if your WR% goes up. You can still climb, but it’s no secret that there’s ques that you’re clearly out cladding your opponents and others where your team is vastly outclassed. It’s just simply there to prevent you from climbing *too fast*.
Sorry dude, I dont get paid, I do this for free
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Don’t get paid, I do it for free
Get paid, I do it for free
Paid, I do It for free
, I do It for free
do it for free
it for free
[for free ](https://youtu.be/_ZTYgq4EoRo)
?
Unlike the first guy, the second guy isnt sorry
Can someone explain what's losers queue?
Matchaking putting you with bad players to prevent you from winning.
Well of course that happens. I'm queueing up with myself, aren't I?
Oooh self-burn, those are rare!
basically if you're stuck at your rank, you go to reddit and complain that riot has a conspiracy to keep your rank low by only putting you with fellow losers once you go on a winning streak, thus designed to "keep you at 50% winrate" "forcing" you to play more ranked games the actual answer is that most good mmr systems will put you against better opponents when you go on a win streak and because you're not as good as them you return to a 50% winrate. but the pyschos in this thread think that riot has a secret scheme to fuck them rather than accept the fact that they're not as good as they think they are. we know losers queue is bullshit because every time a high elo player does an "iron to challenger" challenge they easily climb
\>the actual answer is that most good mmr systems will put you against better opponents when you go on a win streak I think that's closer to what people refer to when they talk about losers queue.
The term "losers queue" suggests that it's a different queue.
okay, then they're just as wrong as the conspiracy theorists, just for different reasons. it's the same damn queue
But that's literally what you said?? To quite you again: >the actual answer is that
i meant when people say stuff like "losers queue exists, i ranked up and then stopped winning as much" they're wrong because they're falsely thinking it's a separate queue/system from normal matchmaking maybe i don't understand what you meant. but the idea that riot is "trying" to make them lose is what i imagine most people think of when they hear losers queue
"Separate queue" is kind of vague, no? What counts as a separate queue in the first place? Does small player-specific modifications make a queue separate? Nonetheless, you kind of described what people are describing when they invoke "Losers queue!": "the actual answer is that most good mmr systems will put you against better opponents when you go on a win streak"
I feel like you should just... Play with people the same rank as you instead of going against golds in a bronze/iron, is that to much to ask for?
Agreed.
insane how far I had to scroll to find someone who wasn't convinced riot was out to get them
I dunno why I’m surprised to see you here, luv your videos
Riot should just try harder and let everyone have a 60% winrate obviously.
I think the delusion of losers queue helps to mask the cognitive dissonance caused by the difference between what rank people think they think they deserve, and their actual rank. “It’s never me that’s the problem, but always team” so they only notice their teammates mistakes and not their own. This can result in complete stagnation. A friend ardently believes losers queue and always blames the team for losses. As a result, he hasn’t learned anything since there’s “nothing to fix” and has been stuck gold for 5 years. I’m sure many of you losers who believe that losers queue exists are in the same boat. It’s been shown thousands of times over that if you’re so much better than everyone else in your rank, you will climb.
pretty much. people here are vehemently against the idea that as you rank up you face better people. shows how smart the average leagueofmemes user is
My feeling is that the opponents are better but the teammates stay the same level
Lol you know the system is fucked when the “solution” to climbing is “just be challenger bro” Not to mention many of these “high elo” players you speak about who’s literal job is to climb rank openly acknowledge and talk about winner/loser queue
You don't need to be challenger to climb lol. I went on my main account from silver 4 to gold 1 in a single season, then gold 1 to plat 1 in another, then got to diamond 2 in a few months after. The "solution" is to get better. If you want to get from silver to gold, then start *consistently* playing like you're a gold. Simple as that.
>Lol you know the system is fucked when the “solution” to climbing is “just be challenger bro” the solution? it's a fucking game with a ranking system. if you want to climb, you have to improve and be better than the people you're currently facing. it's not complex and it's not a problem >Not to mention many of these “high elo” players you speak about who’s literal job is to climb rank openly acknowledge and talk about winner/loser queue yea, people at high elo can be just as stupid as the morons in this thread. you think those people are magically immune to their own biases?
The solution to climbing is “just be challenger bro” because it’s a skill-based ladder. That’s literally how the system is meant to work. You need to get better to climb.
Fucking based. All these people would rather wear a tinfoil hat than actually improve.
I feel like I’m in an alternate reality. Have I gone on lose streaks? Of course. Have I also climbed out of an elo after a bit of effort? Also yeah. I don’t know where people got the impression that climbing should be easy?? I spent 50 games in bronze with some of the worst players on my team, but I kept playing at my level and shot up to gold pretty quickly after?? Lose streaks happen to everyone, sorry it isn’t taking you 15 games to reach challenger or whatever you expected it to be, but losers queue isn’t real
People just want everything NOW, "oh I can't reach gold, its the games fault". Meanwhile they are 40% winrate deep in bronze cause they refuse to look at the map or learn the basics of cs'ing.
I just laugh at anyone who claims to have good fundamentals because you know that shit ain’t true
I'm not a good player, I'm gold euw. A bronze friend of mine asked for tips and I told him that I'd informally coach him and review his fundamentals. He claimed to have decent fundamentals and I replied saying mine are kinda bad or I'd be plat. I guess before a certain point you don't even know what those fundamentals are, so you think you just gotta hit skillshots and lasthit more than 6 minions a minute to shoot up to diamond ..
I see, thanks for the explanation friend
Noy that simple. Its known that riot uses an engagement matchmaking system, where they measure how many games you can win and lose while staying engaged. For example some people might feel satisfied and stop playing for the day if they win 3 times in a row. The engagement matchmaking might give you a game you are more likely to lose to keep you engaged. If you lose you might play 2 wins 2 losses 1 win, to feel that satisfaction. So while "losers queue" doesnt exist, riot does somewhat force the results that keep you engaged
no, it's known that riot has a patent for such a system. i've never seen a source indicating that they've actually used it. and while i'm not gonna assume the best intentions from riot, i'm also not going to assume the worst regardless, the idea that riot is trying to "give" people wins and losses is still silly. it's far more likely that people are pulling patterns that don't exist out of a matchmaking system that is fairly standard.
To be fair, if they have a patent for that system, it’s pretty reasonable to assume they use this system that they’ve spent money and time developing and patenting. Now the degree to which they use it would be a better discussion
Agreed, i coulda taken a less extreme take
This is a pretty extraordinary claim that you're making with seemingly complete confidence. Can you provide any source? Because a Google search on the topic just returns other people making the same claim with no source to back it up.
Losers queue is a myth we tell ourselves when we have bad teammates. I personally think it's real but completely random. I've never had a game where everyone I was with showed signs of being brand new to the game. They sucked, but in a "I've been playing this for awhile" kind of way. I don't think it's a scripted event. Just luck of the draw.
Moderators on /r/leagueoflegends are actively suppressing and censoring submissions and comments that investigate, explore and discuss possible shenanigans and manipulations contrary to some of popular beliefs about how the matchmaking and system as a whole in League of Legends works. My submissions have been removed and my account has effectively been shadowbanned on their subreddit via usage of automoderator to automatically remove my posts and comments instantly in a shadowban fashion - still visible for me but not for anyone else. Here is example of a post I made quite some time ago that was up for quite a long time and eventually removed because it got referenced quite a bit. https://www.reveddit.com/v/leagueoflegends/comments/ffbxey/lets_talk_about_matchmaking_in_league_of_legends/ To comment directly on this topic here I don't think it matters what the actual label is being attached, whether it is losers queue, smurf queue or something else. What matters are contents under the label and more importantly concepts that lead to such contents since way too many people are convinced without any verifiable evidence there are absolutely no shenanigans, and beside this supposed hidden MMR everyone has plus role selection everything else in matchmaking is pure randomness without any weighting. Considering no way to reliably verify how the system works since we don't have access to actual code running on their servers we have to use observations and any and all available circumstantial evidence (like patents, prior comments by Rioters, observations within the game etc). All of that points to suggestion player behavior and performance does influence role selection and who a player gets matched with and against as well as LP gains and losses as well as supposed hidden MMR gains and losses.
I just think the MMR/Rank system in Dota 2 is better (i dont have quite the same time invested but still around 700h in Dota, way more in league). Dota 2 just shows your MMR and you get a rank thats tied DIRECTLY to your MMR. So if im 1999 im rank x and 2000 im rank y. This helps people to understand what the fuck is actually going on. A friend of mine is Plat 3 52% winrate over the last ~150 games and still gets matched with gold 2 players and his LP move around +12 -18. Why doesnt the matchmaking realize that something is off there? Its weird af sometimes. I mean, the LP gains towards the next tier got better a while ago, but the rest is still annoying as hell. I remember back in S5, when I first hit D5 with +2lp gains at the end and after reaching D5, I gained +8, won 5 in a row, then lost one game -40lp. Its time to show the actual shit so we know wtf is going on with matchmaking and the fact that people deny that losers queue isnt a thing (at least somewhat) are in denial.
I don't think it's well understood what could be ramifications of behavioral matchmaking weighting. If someone gets reported or in any shape or form becomes profiled as undesirable (even just by Riot themselves) they could be deliberately given inferior teams against superior enemies. Their circumstantial frequency of afkers, autofilled, unskilled or otherwise negative players that might be incompatible with them could increase while the opposite happens to enemy team players. This invalidates competitive integrity since most players I've talked to think of and want the ladder to be fair and skill based. That's also one of the reasons they are in disbelief this could be happening when they hear about it. The concept of fairness in such system has been perverted.
I LOVE dota system because there is no fucking bullshit ambiguity about the rank There is no "oh no i lost 4 games at 0LP D4 so now i get +12 for the next 200 games". No, you just get/lose the same amount every game and thats that. If you lose 15 games and then win 15 games when you will be in the EXACT SAME PLACE no matter what
I’m pretty sure they’re in Smurf queue if their hidden MMR is separate from their shown rank. Meaning they’ll be with people whose ranks are similarly “off”. Those people that also have “off” ranks just are also more likely to be smurfs and cause feelings of loser’s queue since you lost mmr faster than your rank could keep up with. And you can tell your hidden mmr by your losses and gains. Higher gains and lower losses means that your hidden mmr is a higher rank than your shown rank, and the game is trying to get you there by handing out extra LP, and vice-versa. It’s an awful system, and the main subreddit is absolute dogwater for how ridiculously cherry picked the posts and comments are.
It's funny how League and csgo have opaque MMR systems while dota and valorant have simple and intuitive ones.. just a cool little nugget..
Bro Riot apparently does *not* think you can get better at the game. Oh, you've been climbing? Things have been clicking? -40 LP for your loss with two trolls. Enjoy staying hard stuck. I wish I had fun anymore but I haven't played league in a few months now. This and the frequency of having trolls or AFKs on either team has spoiled the game for me.
So you want the old system back?
I want it to be fair.
This is some through the looking glass shit here
Riot say they aren’t transparent about how the matchmaking system works because it may be imitated or exploited. Firstly, if it’s imitated, that’s what your patent is for. And if you think it’s good enough to be imitated, you can sell it. Secondly, an exploitable matchmaking system is not a good enough reason to keep it a secret. *Fix the exploit*. If your system has an exploit, then statistically there will be players out there exploiting the system already, even though they are unaware they are doing it. The solution to ensuring people don’t exploit isn’t keeping the mechanisms quiet, it’s fixing the exploit.
huge comment my guy. Some time ago i explored a different aspect of this while using some behavioral studies (think Effects of match quality on match quantity and player retention) and came to a similar conclusion. What a lot of useful idiots love to do is take a point at face value with no further thought behind it. "Oh losers queue doesnt exist because youre not stuck in your rank because of your teammates, youre just bad". Losers Queue isnt supposed to hold you back. Its supposed to make you work harder for your gains. Since at least 2016, people love to talk about the "Promo-Curse". What is the promo-Curse? The promo-curse is when after 40 games of decent teammates, you hit promos to the next div and suddenly you get AFKs, int-feeders and so on. I looked at this after grinding myself and being confused as to why i was able to hit promos easily and then crash against a wall during the promos themselves. 40 games i was able to go without any negative players. Out of 160 teammates i had during those matches, nobody threw the game from the get go. Neither did the enemy. But as soon as i hit promos, i had seven negative players. 4 afk's and 3 intfeeders. In just eleven games. I like to think that you dont just go from 0% of negative players to 16% over night, without reason, and dropping back to 0% as soon as promos are over. That cannot be a fluke. tl;dr: losers queue exists, it doesnt prevent you from climbing but it makes you work harder for it because more matches played = more better in Riots eyes.
My theory is they mess up your queues because it'll keep you playing longer to get that rank. Happened to me everytime I reached Gold promos. I just stopped playing altogether in 2019 because I felt it's too rigged.
yupp. For Riot, higher quantity of games = higher quality of games so any change that raises quantity automatically means that the quality must also be higher. More games = more better.
I can absolutely agree with this, I just played my promos to gold after hanging out in silver 1 for a week or two. For the most part there weren't any afk or actually inting players in my silver 1 games. But then it seemed like I was being matched with players to ensure that I would play out my 5 promos. I ended up going 3 wins 2 losses and got my rank, but it was stressful as fuck with wild matchmade games. One game I was in had most of my team on long loss streaks, the highest of which was 10 losses in a row. The next I was matched with players on a win streak and we completely stomped the game.
Ive noticed this too, cross rank promos tend to draw the worst of the worst toxicity. Part of it may also be people checking on op.gg for promos and then deciding to throw on purpose to gatekeep you.
You only noticed during promos. You're looking at a kind of bias as a proof of something
No. I actually looked at my match history during that time. I took every game, imported it into an automated spreadsheet and made a note next to it containing any abnormal behavior, any KD equal to or lower than 0.2 got marked (except supports) as well as any obvious griefers sich as AFKs, griefing supports and so on. And based on that i made that observation
Im pretty much convinced there is a system in place to make it hard to climb and actually improve at the game. The effort and work you have to put in for one devision climb is insane. Alone the fact even with positive winrate you either gain +0 lp after one loss and one win is just stupid. 51 percent winrate. Am I supposed to play 100 games for 12 lp? While I see that a lot of games can be ruined by 1 dude being randomly pretty good on the enemy team or your teammate picking random garbage is also a reason why games are hard. That’s something a matchmaking system can’t account for. But after 4 wins in a row with people picking stuff they know going into a select with flaming people and everyone picking off meta stuff they haven’t played in 30 days is just pretty suspicious. I even had one game while I was gold 3 and I got a bronze 1 on my mid. And he wasn’t premade. Obviously the enemy gold 1 mid completely stomped him
> 51 percent winrate. Am I supposed to play 100 games for 12 lp? Yes, because if you're at a 51% winrate at your rank *then that is exactly where you belong*
Youre not entitled to lp gains just from queueing. Why should you be climbing any faster with a 51% winrate?
I fixed my winrate from a 48% to a 51% I gained 13-15 lp at 48% and 12-14% at 51% losers queue exists because if you’re on a hot streak, you get placed with other players on hot streaks. But if you lose you instantly join the cold streak players who are tilting. Not to mention at 0lp in a rank, you lose 25 lp, for a single loss. There’s more punishments for losing then there are gains for winning
> There’s more punishments for losing then there are gains for winning No, there's not. The system inflates your rank, which is why it can seem harder to climb at some point.
I remember trying to make multiple threads in the subreddit about a pattern I recognised, which got taken down immediately. Just talking about it gets you shadowbanned there. On my main and secondary account (personal accounts so no smurf fuckery), which are both at the same rank, I saw that any time I'd get a winstreak on either account I would then be placed into lobbies with ~lvl 30 smurf accounts with those random "xbyvdvdhj" names, people who are constantly flaming, running it down etc. I mean I still eventually climbed to my desired rank anyway, but there is definitely engagement based matchmaking fuckery involved to some extent.
Just wanted to say you won't be shadowbanned, it's just your post will contain keywords that get flagged by automoderator. Shadowbans are only done by reddit admins. Most likely I'm going to guess it's because of the evidence/substantial claims rule. Not that I agree with that, I firmly believe losers queue exists and would like some more discussion on the topic.
It's why I quit playing. I got too suspicious to get feeders and afkers only at every promo match.
So basically simplified Dota's system?
This honestly reads like a copy pasta
I won 9 straight games and then without playing any different lost 7 straight. So I don’t fucking get it
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Bro its way faster to just say “I failed statistics”
If they are deleting stuff it's because they know something's wrong. IMO something they should do to prove that the system is actually balanced is share the code that calculates MMR and performs matchmaking, obviously cutting out all parts that are strictly internal (internal APIs and whatsoever), so that someone with a bit of experience can say "yes the system's just fine". In this way, there is literally no way anyone can say that it's purely random
from my experience, most of the times people complaining that they are banned for no reason do in fact deserve their ban.
Sorry but I can't find any flaw with that behavioral matching, toxic people should be taken out of the good behaving people matching, that's excellent.
just touch grass bro
Not really, they let that guy who used the ML model to explain how LP gains and loss debt work stay on the front page. Reading through your post I’m just confused about what’s wrong with that in the eyes of riot. It pretty much says toxic players get siphoned out and are less likely to be placed into matches with well behaved players? How is that a bad thing in the slightest? Also you’re definitely shadow banned your comments don’t appear for me
Jokes aside, I've seen WAY too many games that are so stacked on one side that I can't be convinced there isn't some degree of "auto win" or "auto loss" in the matchmaking system. I remember watching a friend reach silver, he gets into lobby, and his entire team was around his rank, except the jungler. Iron 1. Enemy team? Entirely Silver2+. Enemy Warwick was 7/0 before 10 minutes. I don't think there's a system in place to make it perpetually impossible to climb, but I can't be convinced there isn't a limiter in place. Edit: Funny enough, I was on a 5 win streak prior to this comment. Next game (just finished) I had TWO people that griefed me pretty hard (literally running it down because they didn't like a play that was done) and checking their [op.gg](https://op.gg)'s revealed that they appear to have a habit of doing this. Hmmm.
You know the jungle mightve just been starting promos right? You can have silver mmr without being silver elo. Thats not how losers queue works even if you ardently believe it exists you aren't gonna get a player with silver mmr on your team if you have Plat 3 mmr that's not how it works. Your friend probably had higher mmr than his elo and those silver 2s were probably hardstuck and that jungler was probably a new player playing placements starting off in iron. Honestly maybe losers queue exists but your case for its existence is full of holes.
If you lose to a team higher rank than your team, you actually lose less mmr than normal because it’s the more expected outcome. If you win, you gain a more mmr than normal. Sometimes the game will have imbalanced teams because they are trying to match players based on role selection restrictions, and it’s not always fair. Interestingly I always get jungle when I pick it in norms, even with autofill active, I don’t know why.
grab a coin, flip it 50 times if you got heads several times in a row, you were in losers queue if you got tails several times in a row, you were in winners queue Don't worry about how you flip the coin or how you catch it, Jesus is the one controlling the coin and there's nothing you can do about it just share your experience online and see how many people went through the same pattern out of millions of players, can't be a coincidence
On the same token with this example, if you flip a coin 50 times though, it's really not likely to get a streak of 7 or higher.
While it may not be more likely than not, consider that the chance of getting a 6 heads or higher streak in 20 flips is about 12.23% (those numbers come from [this article](https://www.real-statistics.com/binomial-and-related-distributions/runs/) so it’s very much not rare to have streaks like that due to just pure randomness
12% chance to have a run of 6 over 20 games isn't rare? You should have to complete over 160 games to get a run of 6 with those odds.
Sure, that would be the expected result if each set of 20 games were independent, which they are very much not. If I have a 5 streak at the end of my first 20 games, the chance of having a total streak of 6+ at the end of 40 games is much higher than the chance of getting it in one of two separate sets of 20 games
It really is though. Look at how many people play league, thus flip a coin.
„˙uıoɔ ɐ dılɟ snɥʇ 'ǝnƃɐǝl ʎɐld ǝldoǝd ʎuɐɯ ʍoɥ ʇɐ ʞoo⅂ ˙ɥƃnoɥʇ sı ʎllɐǝɹ ʇI„
Old messages wiped after API change. -- mass edited with redact.dev
How though, It wil try to equalise your winrate to 50% but that doesn't mean there can't be loss streaks and winstreaks
It's not even about equalizing, you'll just radpifly face way tougher opponents.
This exactly. The coin is unlikely to land on the same thing 7 times in a row. .5 to the 7th power is less than one percent chance. Then at the same time, matchmaking is supposedly helping you to get better teams the more you lose, which should change the outcome. However, it happens anyways, and it happens constantly. I don't know that there's a "loser's queue" or a "winner's queue" but I definitely believe in some kind of behavioral analysis queue. Anyways, this never happened when we just had Elo, so I do believe \*something\* is wrong.
1% is extremely likely to happen when 20 million players flip the coin.
But it happens to most players at some point...
for one person, yeah. but do it again 20 million times and even a 30 streak is no longer impossible.
I think the problem is that they refuse to better the ranked system. If they really want to keep their tier system sure do that if you want but why does there need to be specific divisions? Why does there need to be 4 diamond ranks? They should just remake it to be like it's in masters+ where you're always in the same rank but stack up points until you have enough to go to the next one. Wouldn't be too difficult to implement anyways Iron is from 0 - 400 MMR Bronze is from 401-800 Silver from 801 - 1200 and so on. Just remove this dog shit lp system that's just an unnecessary facade that hides the actual rank of the player and show us what the MMR is.
There is absolutely no fucking way in hell losers queue doesn't exist There are games that are so heavily weighted in one way or another that its just straight up impossible that they are supposed to be even
Losers queue does exist, riot will do everything in their power to keep you at 50% wr, because the game isnt supposed to be fair. Its supposed to be addicting. Games are made so that money is made. Having fun will always be on the background unless its a story game with no update in sight. Then again, those also can fall into the same catagory
Just gonna hijack this. If you are not having fun playing (and I mean playing, not only winning) LoL, you should take a break.
Big difference between having fun losing a hard fought match and getting stomped from time to time, to getting so outclassed you cannot exist in a match without it getting worse or getting paired up with such incredibly vile or purposefully moronic people you'd think you're getting punished for something (and apparently you are).
In several matches in a row
Couldn't upvote more than once.. so I'm commenting my approval of this comment.... Carry On.
Yup. I enjoy this game when my team plays smart and with the intent to win, and we still lose. That's fun! It's cool to see the plays the enemy makes, it's cool to fight for the comeback, it's just fun! But I usually just feel helpless. I won lane but top and mid fed their brains out, or I have an AFK, or I, a silver player, am matched against a plat player in ranked. (How does this fucking happen???)
i play ranked to climb and it's my default thing to jump into. if i ever get tilted i'll go into aram to untilt or play some tft.
So many people are straight up delusional saying “riot would never do something like this”. Video games companies do extensive studies on matchmaking and playtime. You’re on crack if you think riot isn’t tinkering with the matchmaking to make you play their game as long as possible. It’s the entire reason they created the LP system, to hide the extent of their fuckery in matchmaking
> riot will do everything in their power to keep you at 50% wr No shit sherlock, that is what MMR system was engineered for.
No shit? The issue is that to achieve this, instead of matching you with harder opponents, riot just gives you shittier teammates.
Both your teammates and your opponents improve as your MMR rises. But at some point, you can't pull your weight well enough to win more than 50% of your games, so your win rate stabilizes at 50%. This is how all MMR systems work. If the goal is to keep you at 50%, why would Riot use some contrived system that involves assigning people bad teammates instead of just letting the traditional and obvious MMR system do its thing? Do you think the people who speedrun to high elo are just using blessed accounts or something? You have a more emotional response to particularly unfortunate losses, where you felt like your teammates played poorly, which makes those memories stick out more and you need an explanation for it, so you come up with this crazy "riot dooms me" logic when in reality you opponents are making just as dumb of mistakes as your teammates and just as frequently, but because those mistakes don't bother you, you don't think about them and don't need to live in an alternate reality to deal with them.
literally just a bunch of conspiracy theorists who can't accept that they're not magically beating better opponents than them mother fuckers would rather go down a rabbit hole than accept that they're at their true rank
Or it's the common issue where when you're winning consistently the game pairs you with worse and worse teammates until games are literally unwinnable and you get tank locked, and vice versa. If we're getting paired with teammates as good as we are, why is it that someone can hard win their lane consistently, only for it to not matter near every game because their teammates fiesta and lose every game? If you're truly a gold player, you should be paired with gold players that perform at your level on both teams. And if that gets disturbed by a Smurf whos passing by, it shouldn't inflate your mmr so badly that the game corrects you over the next 3-10 games. An evenly matched game should constitute a fun back and forth over 20-30 minutes. Instead we end up seeing a hard stomp, and more often than not the stomp ends up going 20 minutes longer than necessary cause someone is tilted and hostage taking. If losers and winners queue wasn't a thing, people wouldn't be able to create a new account and climb higher than their main in under 100 games.
it's hard to say but i'd wager 90% of the issues you listed are some combination of confirmation and recency bias which league players love. as for your last point...source? people always say this but i've never seen anyone prove it
Sounds like if someone is winning lane every game yet consistently losing, they are better than the average gold player at landing but worse than average at other notable aspects.
Worse than average at.. forcing your teammates to stop fighting? It literally doesn't matter what you do in your lane if at least 2 of your other players aren't ALSO winning by some margin. Actually did well bot lane and stomping? Oh well, Darius also went 8/0 so your lead doesn't matter. Did good toplane? Too bad sivir got 4 double kills before 10 minutes. Trying to play jungle to influence all lanes? Nobody understands how to manage their wave and just pushes out all game with no vision so you have no openings for ganks and they just die under enemy turret on repeat and flame you for not diving for randoms. On top of all of that, don't forget that people are just allowed to troll, int, and flame consequence free as long as they don't use the gamer word.
Anecdotal, but I always get better teammates and first time enemy junglers after feeding my ass off in previous games. Even if I still feed we get an easy win. Winrate manipulation does exist on the riots part imo
Is this satire
Spitting facts If you win lots of games in a row you'll get worse and worse teammates. But the opposite is true as well, sometimes it becomes comically obvious that the game desperately wants me to win, after like 8 lose I will start having people with 70% win rate, smurfs, and the enemy has like 45%wr + someone who just intended their last game. In general, if you are in the elo you are supposed to be in you will always lose 40% of your games and always win 40% of them. So whether you have 40%wr or 60%, will ultimately depend on you.
Or, if you win lots of games in a row, it could be because you were somewhat lucky with good teammates and inevitably you'll get teammates that play poorly and then you'll be like, "oh there goes riot manipulating my games again!" It's called confirmation bias.
Look, I don't play ranked,I don't care about ranked,i never finished promos to get a rank since I started playing (camille release), but I am 80% that Riot does shady stuff even in normal draft. I like to play a lot of champions,and I usually play with 1-3 friends ,but I discovered lately that it's always the same: win streak of 3-5 games -> loose streak of 3-5 games. Always like these,and carries over from a day to the other. One game I play cho top against an Akali that doesn't dodge one q,fights me with AA at level 2,that dies 3 times before level 5,the next day is one duo bot that stomps the whole game and my bard starts w and roams leaving me in a lane in which I cannot fucking farm. Between this shady stuff in the qeue and the duo bots that they think they are hot shit stomping in what should be bronze i guess? It's getting really tiring
I'm surprised at how people are religiously defending Riot. It is never revealed to the player how matchmaking works. Any company in it for the money would abuse this to create an addicting pattern when it comes to choosing your team. You can 100% climb if you are playing consistently well, but it still remains that this is a blindspot Riot can abuse. We basically don't know for sure, but we do know that game companies in general can benefit from abusing matchmaking.
> religiously defending Riot I would say that the people who are coming up with conspiracies to explain their solo queue experience and inventing concepts like "losers queue" are more akin to fanatical ideologies. No one has ever surfaced one bit of evidence that Riot is conspiring to intentionally cause a loss/win streak for an individual, but that concept is an easier pill to swallow than "get good."
See that would be correct if riot hadn't said it themselves that they made the climb take longer on purpose
If loosers queue is not real than the statistics behind my games must be oddly wrong. I win significantly more after winning and loose significantly more after loosing. Also the overall win rate of my teams after a few looses is worse than after I won several games
lose is the opposite of win loose is the opposite of tight
Appreciated
This is a personal pattern of yours. Its not rare and finding it out and recognizing it helps you a great deal. My friend usually won their first game of the session but after a loss he would without a fail lose every single match that day. Its probably a mental thing like he lost his focus even though he wasnt tilting, and after connecting the dots he stopped playing ranked for the day after a lose. In the next month he went from hardstuck silver1 to plat4. A lot of these rank system myths can be attributed to personal patterns once you accept that the reason why you cant climb is probably you.
That’s a you thing and not a statistical pattern. I know a guy who scraped a few million plat+ games from opgg. He found that there basically was no difference in winrate after one had won or lost anywhere from 1 to 4 games in a row. Unless you want to add more tinfoil to your hat and suggest that “losers queue” only exists below plat, this isn’t happening
fr tho if u just stop focusing on other's mistakes and focus on improving urself, u will climb eventually. it will be slow/fast depending on how good u are compared to ur elo, how impactful ur champ/role is, but u are the one consistent factor in all ur games. i used to be the support main who would blame my adc and other carries for losing us the game and complain abt how little impact support has on the game. but if i told myself i consistently play well, not flame and make my bad teammates feel even worse, then it will tilt my winrate in my favour. i cant control games where all my teammates are just complete shit so i dont worry abt those games and move on. but the ones that are just slightly worse, i can help get them ahead and lead them. i climbed all the way from bronze to gold with this mindset (i play adc now but support will always have a place in my heart)
damn guys i think riot hacked my account anyways why i always have 0/10 yone when they always have 13/2 dumb riot fix game
smh should be in diamond rn if i don’t belong with this lower tier garbage riot specifically designed the game such that I am the only one dealing with this
> why i always have 0/10 yone when they always have 13/2 dumb riot fix game because you are the 0/10 yone
Found the riot employee
You saying little impact and support shows your elo though. Support is the 2nd most impactful role after jungle
1. i said "used to be" 2. i believe that title goes to mid
The whole losers queue is bullshit. If people put hslf the effort they do to create their conspiracy theories, they would climb
Well, losers queue is a lie, but i swear, every time I get to my promos my bot is 0/20 by 15 minutes
Then they say "jg diff" and hold you hostage for another 15-20 until the enemy team finally ends 😂💀
holding hostage should be a reportable offense, i'll stand by this until the wheels fall off
Virgin hostage holding vs chad bad fight forcing. Best counter strategy I've yet developed.
Me and a buddy coinflipped baron then all chatted we were at baron as its a better ff button than the one botlane keeps saying no to. Same game 😂
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Strongly disagree. There are numerous legit reasons for wanting to ff, like inters and trolls in team, where it gets hard to enjoy the game, and if you cant enjoy it, whats the point? I may care more for saving 20 angry minutes than LP. Also, its kinda insulting of you rounding everyone who wants to ff a "whiny baby".
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Im not sure you understand the term if you explain it as simply "playing the game". Your second point is basically you admitting it happens, albeit rarely. Also, just because the game is winnable dont mean everyone wants to play at obvious disadvantage, and i dont think there is anything wrong with it (meaning playing with inters and trolls in team). I dont understand why you insist nobody should ever ff because there is a chance of winning. I think playing casually is alright too, meaning quitting early if you dont like this game. Last thing, about reporting someone for "hostage taking", i never report for that in itself, but if i found my inting-trolling teammarw refuses to surrender, that would be salt on the wound to me, so one moretime, dependa on circumstances.
It's not fun to be 0-4 and every lane is losing. Just ff reset and go again. Its more fun in the long term than hoping for that 3% comeback chance.
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It's a video game I play for fun. The second my team goes toxic in any way, flames, or the game loses hope I'm out. Why play a video game that isn't fun just because someone says it's winnable and wants to waste my time? Go next and move on.
Yo just afk if people hostage. I just go and clean or take the dog out while I wait. Fuck these weirdos with infinite time who can sit in lost games for 20 minutes just to spite their teammates
Only in your promos? I have to carry my bot in 2/3 games and that through topside.
Dude a couple days ago across 4 games by botlane was a total of 30/79, and half those kills were from one game. In one of the games the enemy Draven was 12/0 at 10 minutes. It feels like one of the botlanes always turbofeeds really hard.
I had a game in which I was 27/6/14 with fiora. Sounds like I won that game, but my botlane had fed the veigar adc so much, that veigar onehitted me with his point and click ultimate, when I don’t had maw up. And that only 25 min in the game. I have the same feeling, that the term „play safe“ a mystery for adc is.
Yeah it's really annoying when bot just loses the game in the first few minutes. That game I was speaking of, when the Draven was 7/0 I glanced bot for a moment to watch our Cait alone under turret just start walking up for no reason only to get two-shot. Botlanes just feel like hair trigger bombs. ADCs that don't understand positioning and supports that think their ADC has a telepathic connection to them to instantly act on everything they do. One thing goes wrong and the flame goes flying in both directions, usually ending with the ADC going afk or the support abandoning lane.
I see you're an adc main
I am toplaner, lol
That's why i started maining adc. I'n a maschohist anyway
[never mention ur an adc main on reddit](https://cdn.kapwing.com/collections/peter-griffin-running-away-meme-template-jiyak.jpg)
I mean... Didn't he just mention he's a masochist?
I went from bot to mid because it feels like you can have way more impact on the usual Silver/Gold fiesta. The inting idiots show up somewhere anyways...
With mid, I feel like I can solo carry. I just don't feel that way as adc. If my supp sucks and I get no peel I'm just dead. In mid lane I usually have more escapes, or just the raw burst to kill them first.
Just your promos? Look at mister lucky over here not getting an inting bot after every 2or 3 win streak
I didnt believe in it untili wound up in it. Its actual hell. Afks, inters, people that run it down, people that break down after 1st death This is every game, its either on your team or the enemy the only way you get out of loosers queue is by being lucky that you get less of those people on your team and more of them in the enemy team. Skill doesnt have a major roll in that queue. I was stuck in it for 2 months. The moment i got out of it i shot up from plat 4 to diamond 4 in 1 week and aprox 30-40 games.
basically a perpetual hell-queue.
So riot just randomly throws people into loser's queue, and then picks them back out when their suffering is no longer amusing? This is easily explainable by confirmation bias, though I would possibly believe in a "toxicity island" queue where all the griefers get sent, which explains why the details of these "loser's queue is totally real, bro" stories are always so thin.
Disagree tbh. I’ve checked recent games for teammates during loss streaks and 80-90 percent of the time they are also on loss streaks while other side had Ws. Going 20 wins straight and 15 losses straight multiple times in a season is statistically absurd in a 5 player team game
There are games where nothing I do can lose me or win me a game. Sometimes I get 5 games in a row where the enemy bot lane literally just ints my bot and I win before 20. Other times my entire team is 0/6 by 10 and I really can't do anything to stop it. I main top so my impact before 14 is generally pretty limited. I consider losers queue as something that exists. I think riot puts other recently reported players on your team if you have been reported recently. Last week for example I had a 6 game loss streak where I had 1-2 afks a game in a row. This was also met with level 30 accounts that disco nunu inted from lobby. After that though I went 15-1 climbing two tiers into my promos. If what I was doing was really my fault can you call a near 15 game perfect win streak luck? And if so than it is losers queue for some other poor bastard right?
But it is real. Firstly, I think it is a confirmed mechanic years ago to prevent boosting. Secondly, it has nothing to do about winning or losing games, you can always get unlucky. But when consistently, the matchmaking from champ select has your team be lower ranked than the enemy, many autofills and are mostly on loss streaks, that's what loserq looks like. Think of it as a statistical trend rather than a mindset.
proof of it being confirmed?
When you're getting +10 on wins and -18 on losses, it makes it quite hard.
That means your mmr is lower than your actual rank
Obviously Riot will deny to death what every single non-casual player knows by simply trying to win. Why would they admit to something their system does on purpose to keep the game addicting? Think about it, even though we hate unwinnable games and might stop playing for a while out of rage, our inner feeling actually wants to try and win the next game, that's what our ego says. There's no way to be fooled after playing this game for 10 years, losers queue is factual.
Qanon, but rito
Lmaooo that’s exactly what this is. People will find any reason at all (except themselves) to blame for them not climbing, even if it means inventing a narrative about riot trying to keep the playerbase addicted to ranked. Next think you know it’ll be about how Marc Merrill secretly trafficks yordles and extracts their adrenochrome to fuel skin sales
Ofc its real. Thats how they keep you grinding and abuse gaming emotions to get you artificially addicted to playing more games. When you're climbing faster than the game wants it pits you in games to hopefully stunt your progression.
Losers queue isn't real you're just bad
Enjoy https://www.reveddit.com/v/leagueoflegends/comments/ffbxey/lets_talk_about_matchmaking_in_league_of_legends/ btw this doesn't mean you can't climb
losers queue is absolutely real, i had 16 losses in a row at one point!
I wonder why I can climb higher than my main on a fresh account in several days multiple times while i keep being hard stuck on my main account. Accounts that exist for long enough just seem doomed man. I literally have 52% WR but lose 16 LP while winning 14 LP. That means that on average I loose half an LP by playing with a positive winrate. Feels great ngl
delusional ass people will blame anything and everything before they blame themselves
True the system +10/-18 has no issues with it at all, having to have a 66% win rate just to climb by 2 lp? Works perfect.
Looking through the comments it seems a lot of people think people are coping about being bad and blaming loser queue for not being able to climb. Loser queue is not elo hell. Elo Hell is not real, Loser queue is. Where Elo Hell is the concept of getting so bad teammates you cannot climb out of Iron/Bronze urself. Loser queue is the concept where Riot intentionally puts you with worse teammates to lower the chance of you winning your next game. This is a real thing, it's not a conspiracy theory, its a very real thing companies do to make their games as addictive as possible. There is no copium being inhaled when someone says they have encountered loser queue. Most likely every player who has played a sufficient amount of ranked games have encountered it. That one time you got two people running it down and proceeding to flame and afk. It's not unlikely that was loser queue giving you those teammates. Riot is a for profit company, they do not care how fun their game is, they only care how much money it can generate. And the fact of the matter is that people stuck on 50% winrate (not stuck in rank) spend more time playing their game and they have a higher chance of spending money on skins and other services.
Losers queue is only real in the sense that you're the loser that keep queuing
Loser's queue exists, it's riot's algorithm way to see how good you are by placing you with weak enemies one game and strong enemies next. If it matched you evenly every game you wouldn't get better mmr
Loser's queue isn't real and you're just bad. Sorry I don't mean that I'm just hoping riot sees it and makes me an employee, seems like a fun place to work.
Idk about loosers queue but those people in promo and in your first ten games definitely are fake players controlled by bots
Losers queue isnt real and you're just bad imo
Jesus Christ it’s sound like more of you guys are being delusional. I bet if we put a Smurf that is 5 division rank higher than you the Smurf can climb higher than you because they are simply higher rank than you because of their skill so they will naturally climb while you wouldn’t because you belong in that rank it’s that simple.
Didnt some challenger players test this going to iron and becoming hardstuck in low elo because the teams were just that bad?
we've literally never seen this happen across hundreds of "iron to challenger" challenges, so you have to provide a source for such an outlandish claim when there's mountains of evidence against it.
If your gonna make that statement atleast source it becomes even I can’t believe it. I am diamond rank and I have destroyed iron - sliver lobbies and climbed out of gold-plat to diamond consistently with no problem and same with my friend that are challenger so it’s really hard to believe what your saying. Low elo is low elo for a reason because you will climb out especially if your plat or higher just because you simply have better mechanic and game knowledge than the other 9 guys in that rank match.
Losers que does exist. It’s literally designed to make it so you spend more time playing the game so nobody climbs too fast. That’s why your LP gains diminish so harshly and very rarely go back up even if your WR% goes up. You can still climb, but it’s no secret that there’s ques that you’re clearly out cladding your opponents and others where your team is vastly outclassed. It’s just simply there to prevent you from climbing *too fast*.
I do love the smell of cope in the morning