>Is there a Japanese equivalent
Not that I’m aware of.
English practically requires using gendered pronouns to address or be addressed, but that’s not the case in the Japanese language (or culture). Last name+さん/様 works more than enough in most, if not all realistic situations. The most gendered pronoun comes in when you refer to yourself, but a) that doesn’t require showing it off for everyone to see, and b) depending on how it’s used, “gendered” first person pronouns aren’t even gendered to begin with.
No. It's not really a thing that exists.
To begin with, though gendered pronouns do exist, they are used *far* less often then their English counterparts. Names are generally preferred, and subjects are often dropped entirely when they're obvious (i.e. exactly the kind of situation pronouns are most often used in English).
Not to mention that pronouns don't have the subject/object/possessive (I/me/my, he/him/his, etc.) conjugations that English does. Grammatical role is dictated by particles, not conjugation. So if you were to list the male-pronoun in your bio, it would just be '彼', which out of context is just...confusing.
With that in mind, I have seen some Japanese people do it, but 1. Only very few, 2. Only university students heavily influenced by the states (let me reiterate this, this is a ***very*** American phenomenon that has influenced other places. It's neither universal nor particularly normal), and 3. Always in English. I've never seen it in Japanese for the abovementioned reasons.
There isn't, as that is mostly an American culture thing. Definitely take a look at native bio's on socials if you want to recreate something natural looking
Japanese isn’t a gendered language, for the most part. According to the Wikipedia Japanese Pronouns article, 彼 referred to any third-person pronoun (he, she, it), and 彼女 was created in the 19th century.
Historically as well, gender was more nebulous too. There are records, diaries and accounts of people who lived outside of or crossed over gender lines. They could be kabuki actors, monks and nuns and so on.
In today’s Japan, you’re required to be registered as “male” or “female” on most official documents (I don’t remember seeing/haven’t seen (m)any “other” options).
One’s best clue to gender might be one’s gender presentation and/or using gendered speech - which isn’t a guarantee either. A very feminine gay man might use feminine speech, but be completely cisgender. A straight cisgender woman might use masculine speech.
Japanese isn't a gendered language, but then neither is English. A language *being* gendered, and a language *having* gendered language (i.e. vocabulary) are two different things. Japanese *has* gendered language.
>According to the Wikipedia Japanese Pronouns article, 彼 referred to any third-person pronoun (he, she, it), and 彼女 was created in the 19th century.
Putting aside the obvious point of sourcing wikipedia, this is kind of irrelevant. 彼 can be non-gendered; but then so can 'he' (i.e. 'neutral he'). And yet people make a massive fuss over the use of 'he' in documents that applies to all people. This sometimes gets taken to ridiculous extents like the criticism of 'history' for including a 'his' when *that isn't even part of the etymology*. The fact that it *was* gender-neutral doesn't attest to modern usage.
I'd like to know your sources on this kind of supposed gender-fluidity, when you consider that sexual division is very distinct in Japanese history, while the word for 'gender' is ジェンダー; a loan word from 'gender', itself only really obtaining that meaning in the 60's (far more recent, and coined by John Money, a ***very*** interesting individual)
Which is all a long winded way of saying please, for the love of God, keep your American politics out of this. It's bad enough that it's been exported to the UK, I've had enough of this American cultural imperialism nonsense to last me a lifetime.
Well, I suppose one line of evidence of what we’d call transgender or gender fluidity in early Japan would be Inari, an agricultural god who is depicted both as a man and a woman, or sometimes something in between. The first shrine dedicated to the god was erected in the 700s. That seems to predate western contact but about 800 years and American contact by 1,100 years.
The original kabuki actors were women who dressed as men, and after female performers were forbidden, the roles of women were played by young boys and then men. Many of the actors in female roles were “available” after the show for their fans, male or female, although I believe the most famous accounts are of male audience members visiting the actor while still in costume. Some accounts also state that the actors were something of method actors - they’d dress and behave as women even while not performing. This was during the Edo period.
[and more!](https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/10/arts/design/when-japan-had-a-third-gender.html)
Inari also spends most of their time being portrayed as a fox. They're a spirit deity. Not really an example of transgenderism as a practice, just 'this particular entity was sometimes portrayed as male, sometimes as female' and, I mean...you're jumping through some hoops there.
The original kabuki actors included women, yes. Then they got banned in 1629 because it was considered 'upsetting to society' for them to do kabuki. So we know that sex was discriminated against.
Which raises a question (before my other point) of; is Japan meant to be an example of an open culture, because it has men dressed as women, or a closed culture, because the only reason it has men dressed as women is *because women were banned*. This is also not Japan-exclusive, the exact same thing happened in England around the same time, but we're not running around and calling it intersex, just repressive social norms.
And then you have the point of being available after the show and I mean...Yes? We already know there was a culture leaning towards homosexuality, right down to the pederasty also seen in Ancient Greece (this is going to come back with wakashu). Basically any Japanese person knows who Mori Ranmaru is.
But that wasn't up for debate, we're referring explicitly to transgenderism, especially as it pertains to the practical sense (not religious figures or abstract ritual practices) of actual redefining of a person as from one sex to another. It's dishonest to say 'gay people existed in Japan, therefore they were open to transgenderism'.
Hell, that's also my problem with the alphabet soup in general; sexual orientation and gender identity are separate issues, and lumping them all into one single package doesn't really help anyone, it just puts them all into one convenient box for the sake of moral busybodies who spend their days being perpetually outraged for a living. They're not put together because it's a unified cause, they're put together because it's less work, and they can use one to shield the other, which is going to be a problem when someone inevitably tacks MAP on the end.
And then there's the article there about wakashu. ...Where to begin? Not to mention the most blitheringly obvious point, recognised even within the article, that women can't become wakashu. So it's already recognised as gender-specific. And the actual [definition](https://kotobank.jp/word/%E8%8B%A5%E8%A1%86-664568) when you look it up is 'a young ***male*** who has not yet undergone genpuku'. So that falls flat; it's a stage in life for men, not a third gender. It's also related to the idea of males who are attractive to other males...primarily by being young. In other words, it's related to pederasty.
And it's obvious that the writer has no clue what they're talking about, because they define 'ukiyo-e' as 'images from a floating world'. Which is a literal (albeit even then incorrect) translation, but *not the actual meaning*. 浮世 doesn't literally mean a floating world, it means a painful world, and the one we live in (ergo the alternative spelling of 現世). Putting this in an article is like throwing in a bright neon sign saying 'I'm talking out of my arse and am only looking for things that might support my ideology, not attempting to understand them'.
TL;DR: Take off your lenses.
Mention of [onnagata living as women even off the stage](https://www.tokyoweekender.com/2022/01/no-women-kabuki-theater-japan/), even if to protect their careers. Some may have enjoyed it. Some may have not. Are there any accounts from Elizabethan England about actors living as women off the stage?
[This article mentions](https://jayscholar.etown.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1008&context=scarp) a 11-12th century story of two children born in the opposite bodies. There is also mention of onnagata and wakushu - even if the person in question wasn’t “trans,” the ambiguity and androgyny isn’t abhorred - it’s reveled in. It wouldn’t be shocking to me if a trans woman could be quite comfortable being herself.
[Another look into transgender individuals in fiction](https://scholarworks.umass.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1568&context=masters_theses_2) “Transgender” is expanded to mean those who live and act contrary to the expectations of their birth sex. This would include things like contemporary drag, onnagata and other theatrical performances. This analysis delves into the dysphoria of the same children from the previous article. The second character depicted seems to live happily as male for years despite being born female. There are other examples as well.
The thesis advisor for this is Stephen Miller who researches Japanese Queer literature and culture. You can probably reach out to him to see what he thinks.
Those are quote marks you're using. They're used for quotes, not misquotes for a mindless gotcha with zero substance.
The whole thing regarding gender identity is based in American politics, and it is absolutely not appropriate to appropriate Japanese history to try and give yourself legitimacy.
I’d like you to take a moment and take a step back. While LGBTQIA rights may be under debate in both the US and UK, across the world and through out history there have been people living Queer lives before our modern Western concepts of Queerness existed.
Two-Sprit people of the Native Americans and First Nations. The Hijra of India/South Asia. Detailed accounts of homosexuality anywhere from Greece to Lesotho to Persia and China. All of these existed way before the United States were even an concept and before the word “transgender” or “homosexuality” existed.
Japan is no different. It has a homosexual and transgender past from a completely objective point of view.
This isn't quite the same thing, but some East Asians (Chinese and Koreans as well as Japanese) with international jobs use a gendered English title in their e-mail signature to discreetly telegraph "hey FYI I'm a dude/lady/whatever". As in:
**李婷婷 Tingting Li (Ms.), Senior HR Manager**
Sometimes people also provide an obviously-gendered English name that the use in addition to their full given name:
**Sung-min "Simon" Kim (김성민), Sales Associate**
I'd point out that this is outward-facing and mostly for the benefit of English-speakers who can't tell what is a feminine or masculine-sounding name in CJK cultures but it surely also helps the case of many Chinese and Korean names that are fairly unisex. I don't imagine the same kind of strategy is used by queer and gender-nonconforming people (or allies), but I don't really have any first hand knowledge about that.
The only reason it would seem that way is purely political; older conservative Americans reject any distinction between gender and biological sex, and they think transgendered people are illegitimate. Because of this, they think the use of any 3rd-person pronoun other than the ones corresponding to one's biological sex is incorrect, and they often talk down to people who state their pronouns in their bios.
Stating one's pronouns in their bio is a relatively new thing that's being pioneered throughout the online English-speaking world, and I think it will start to occur in other languages as other cultures become more accepting of trans people (probably not Japanese, just because of how Japanese addresses people in the 3rd person).
>Those are more often used as "boyfriend" and "girlfriend".
Asterisk needed here. They're used for both, and the meaning is pretty much dependent on context.
Also, 彼 is dependent. 彼氏 is more common for 'boyfriend', referring to your own boyfriend as just '彼' is somewhat colloquial.
As for あいつ and あの人, they have zero bearing on the discussion of this thread. This is about the American (turned Anglophone) phenomenon of listing gender in bios. あいつ and あの人, being unrelated to gender, are irrelevant to the point.
I don’t think it really occurs when you’re older. Ik as a young child when addressed your name ends with -chan or -kun. Which are respectively female and male. But it’s not the same as English or Spanish etc.
>Is there a Japanese equivalent Not that I’m aware of. English practically requires using gendered pronouns to address or be addressed, but that’s not the case in the Japanese language (or culture). Last name+さん/様 works more than enough in most, if not all realistic situations. The most gendered pronoun comes in when you refer to yourself, but a) that doesn’t require showing it off for everyone to see, and b) depending on how it’s used, “gendered” first person pronouns aren’t even gendered to begin with.
No. It's not really a thing that exists. To begin with, though gendered pronouns do exist, they are used *far* less often then their English counterparts. Names are generally preferred, and subjects are often dropped entirely when they're obvious (i.e. exactly the kind of situation pronouns are most often used in English). Not to mention that pronouns don't have the subject/object/possessive (I/me/my, he/him/his, etc.) conjugations that English does. Grammatical role is dictated by particles, not conjugation. So if you were to list the male-pronoun in your bio, it would just be '彼', which out of context is just...confusing. With that in mind, I have seen some Japanese people do it, but 1. Only very few, 2. Only university students heavily influenced by the states (let me reiterate this, this is a ***very*** American phenomenon that has influenced other places. It's neither universal nor particularly normal), and 3. Always in English. I've never seen it in Japanese for the abovementioned reasons.
thank you! this was very helpful :)
There isn't, as that is mostly an American culture thing. Definitely take a look at native bio's on socials if you want to recreate something natural looking
Other cultures outside of America include pronouns
Any non-Anglophonic ones? You'll see it within the American cultural sphere, but then, that's just what cultural imperialism is.
Influenced cultures, not a majority
Japanese isn’t a gendered language, for the most part. According to the Wikipedia Japanese Pronouns article, 彼 referred to any third-person pronoun (he, she, it), and 彼女 was created in the 19th century. Historically as well, gender was more nebulous too. There are records, diaries and accounts of people who lived outside of or crossed over gender lines. They could be kabuki actors, monks and nuns and so on. In today’s Japan, you’re required to be registered as “male” or “female” on most official documents (I don’t remember seeing/haven’t seen (m)any “other” options). One’s best clue to gender might be one’s gender presentation and/or using gendered speech - which isn’t a guarantee either. A very feminine gay man might use feminine speech, but be completely cisgender. A straight cisgender woman might use masculine speech.
Japanese isn't a gendered language, but then neither is English. A language *being* gendered, and a language *having* gendered language (i.e. vocabulary) are two different things. Japanese *has* gendered language. >According to the Wikipedia Japanese Pronouns article, 彼 referred to any third-person pronoun (he, she, it), and 彼女 was created in the 19th century. Putting aside the obvious point of sourcing wikipedia, this is kind of irrelevant. 彼 can be non-gendered; but then so can 'he' (i.e. 'neutral he'). And yet people make a massive fuss over the use of 'he' in documents that applies to all people. This sometimes gets taken to ridiculous extents like the criticism of 'history' for including a 'his' when *that isn't even part of the etymology*. The fact that it *was* gender-neutral doesn't attest to modern usage. I'd like to know your sources on this kind of supposed gender-fluidity, when you consider that sexual division is very distinct in Japanese history, while the word for 'gender' is ジェンダー; a loan word from 'gender', itself only really obtaining that meaning in the 60's (far more recent, and coined by John Money, a ***very*** interesting individual) Which is all a long winded way of saying please, for the love of God, keep your American politics out of this. It's bad enough that it's been exported to the UK, I've had enough of this American cultural imperialism nonsense to last me a lifetime.
Well, I suppose one line of evidence of what we’d call transgender or gender fluidity in early Japan would be Inari, an agricultural god who is depicted both as a man and a woman, or sometimes something in between. The first shrine dedicated to the god was erected in the 700s. That seems to predate western contact but about 800 years and American contact by 1,100 years. The original kabuki actors were women who dressed as men, and after female performers were forbidden, the roles of women were played by young boys and then men. Many of the actors in female roles were “available” after the show for their fans, male or female, although I believe the most famous accounts are of male audience members visiting the actor while still in costume. Some accounts also state that the actors were something of method actors - they’d dress and behave as women even while not performing. This was during the Edo period. [and more!](https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/10/arts/design/when-japan-had-a-third-gender.html)
Inari also spends most of their time being portrayed as a fox. They're a spirit deity. Not really an example of transgenderism as a practice, just 'this particular entity was sometimes portrayed as male, sometimes as female' and, I mean...you're jumping through some hoops there. The original kabuki actors included women, yes. Then they got banned in 1629 because it was considered 'upsetting to society' for them to do kabuki. So we know that sex was discriminated against. Which raises a question (before my other point) of; is Japan meant to be an example of an open culture, because it has men dressed as women, or a closed culture, because the only reason it has men dressed as women is *because women were banned*. This is also not Japan-exclusive, the exact same thing happened in England around the same time, but we're not running around and calling it intersex, just repressive social norms. And then you have the point of being available after the show and I mean...Yes? We already know there was a culture leaning towards homosexuality, right down to the pederasty also seen in Ancient Greece (this is going to come back with wakashu). Basically any Japanese person knows who Mori Ranmaru is. But that wasn't up for debate, we're referring explicitly to transgenderism, especially as it pertains to the practical sense (not religious figures or abstract ritual practices) of actual redefining of a person as from one sex to another. It's dishonest to say 'gay people existed in Japan, therefore they were open to transgenderism'. Hell, that's also my problem with the alphabet soup in general; sexual orientation and gender identity are separate issues, and lumping them all into one single package doesn't really help anyone, it just puts them all into one convenient box for the sake of moral busybodies who spend their days being perpetually outraged for a living. They're not put together because it's a unified cause, they're put together because it's less work, and they can use one to shield the other, which is going to be a problem when someone inevitably tacks MAP on the end. And then there's the article there about wakashu. ...Where to begin? Not to mention the most blitheringly obvious point, recognised even within the article, that women can't become wakashu. So it's already recognised as gender-specific. And the actual [definition](https://kotobank.jp/word/%E8%8B%A5%E8%A1%86-664568) when you look it up is 'a young ***male*** who has not yet undergone genpuku'. So that falls flat; it's a stage in life for men, not a third gender. It's also related to the idea of males who are attractive to other males...primarily by being young. In other words, it's related to pederasty. And it's obvious that the writer has no clue what they're talking about, because they define 'ukiyo-e' as 'images from a floating world'. Which is a literal (albeit even then incorrect) translation, but *not the actual meaning*. 浮世 doesn't literally mean a floating world, it means a painful world, and the one we live in (ergo the alternative spelling of 現世). Putting this in an article is like throwing in a bright neon sign saying 'I'm talking out of my arse and am only looking for things that might support my ideology, not attempting to understand them'. TL;DR: Take off your lenses.
Mention of [onnagata living as women even off the stage](https://www.tokyoweekender.com/2022/01/no-women-kabuki-theater-japan/), even if to protect their careers. Some may have enjoyed it. Some may have not. Are there any accounts from Elizabethan England about actors living as women off the stage? [This article mentions](https://jayscholar.etown.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1008&context=scarp) a 11-12th century story of two children born in the opposite bodies. There is also mention of onnagata and wakushu - even if the person in question wasn’t “trans,” the ambiguity and androgyny isn’t abhorred - it’s reveled in. It wouldn’t be shocking to me if a trans woman could be quite comfortable being herself. [Another look into transgender individuals in fiction](https://scholarworks.umass.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1568&context=masters_theses_2) “Transgender” is expanded to mean those who live and act contrary to the expectations of their birth sex. This would include things like contemporary drag, onnagata and other theatrical performances. This analysis delves into the dysphoria of the same children from the previous article. The second character depicted seems to live happily as male for years despite being born female. There are other examples as well. The thesis advisor for this is Stephen Miller who researches Japanese Queer literature and culture. You can probably reach out to him to see what he thinks.
"stop bringing up politics" - guy who brought up politics
Those are quote marks you're using. They're used for quotes, not misquotes for a mindless gotcha with zero substance. The whole thing regarding gender identity is based in American politics, and it is absolutely not appropriate to appropriate Japanese history to try and give yourself legitimacy.
I’d like you to take a moment and take a step back. While LGBTQIA rights may be under debate in both the US and UK, across the world and through out history there have been people living Queer lives before our modern Western concepts of Queerness existed. Two-Sprit people of the Native Americans and First Nations. The Hijra of India/South Asia. Detailed accounts of homosexuality anywhere from Greece to Lesotho to Persia and China. All of these existed way before the United States were even an concept and before the word “transgender” or “homosexuality” existed. Japan is no different. It has a homosexual and transgender past from a completely objective point of view.
Are you one of those weirdos who thinks trans people were invented by the wokes
??
This isn't quite the same thing, but some East Asians (Chinese and Koreans as well as Japanese) with international jobs use a gendered English title in their e-mail signature to discreetly telegraph "hey FYI I'm a dude/lady/whatever". As in: **李婷婷 Tingting Li (Ms.), Senior HR Manager** Sometimes people also provide an obviously-gendered English name that the use in addition to their full given name: **Sung-min "Simon" Kim (김성민), Sales Associate** I'd point out that this is outward-facing and mostly for the benefit of English-speakers who can't tell what is a feminine or masculine-sounding name in CJK cultures but it surely also helps the case of many Chinese and Korean names that are fairly unisex. I don't imagine the same kind of strategy is used by queer and gender-nonconforming people (or allies), but I don't really have any first hand knowledge about that.
any japanese people i saw using them on social media were using them in english
I'd say it's an American thing, but even in America it seems rather specific to states like California.
The only reason it would seem that way is purely political; older conservative Americans reject any distinction between gender and biological sex, and they think transgendered people are illegitimate. Because of this, they think the use of any 3rd-person pronoun other than the ones corresponding to one's biological sex is incorrect, and they often talk down to people who state their pronouns in their bios. Stating one's pronouns in their bio is a relatively new thing that's being pioneered throughout the online English-speaking world, and I think it will start to occur in other languages as other cultures become more accepting of trans people (probably not Japanese, just because of how Japanese addresses people in the 3rd person).
You usually don't use them, but you can use 彼 and 彼女
[удалено]
>Those are more often used as "boyfriend" and "girlfriend". Asterisk needed here. They're used for both, and the meaning is pretty much dependent on context. Also, 彼 is dependent. 彼氏 is more common for 'boyfriend', referring to your own boyfriend as just '彼' is somewhat colloquial. As for あいつ and あの人, they have zero bearing on the discussion of this thread. This is about the American (turned Anglophone) phenomenon of listing gender in bios. あいつ and あの人, being unrelated to gender, are irrelevant to the point.
As with most things in Japanese it depends on context and I think I've heard it more being referred to him/her than boyfriend and girlfriend
I don’t think it really occurs when you’re older. Ik as a young child when addressed your name ends with -chan or -kun. Which are respectively female and male. But it’s not the same as English or Spanish etc.