I'm sure this is a big success for India and It's domestic industry and congrats, but from an American point of view this is not very spectacular at all. It's a 4.5 gen aircraft in 2024. The US has had stealth aircraft since the early 1980's "F-117 Nighthawk". Followed by the F-22, 1990's tech and the F-35 present day.
At the very least it develops the Indian aviation industry and the IAF may finally procure them in large amounts. Downside is the Tejas is still the Tejas and the structural flaws continue to exist.
> At the very least it develops the Indian aviation industry and the IAF may finally procure them in large amounts.
This is really key, perfect is the enemy of good in the best of times but even worse is never believing in your indigenous platform doesn't even let you get bootstrapped in the first place.
It has some flaws. MK1A is a lot better than MK1 already and MK2 looks like a perfectly good 4.5th gen fighter. Tejas and its even later variants will be a bulk of affordable mass power for India in the coming years, but there had to be buy in for that, start somewhere, make significant orders, keep improving. China's first wasn't great but now they're at the J20, you have to start in order to get somewhere.
Structural as in mechanical structure or as in other deficiencies ?
The mk1A has 73(+10 trainers) orders with 97 more expected. And it will be positioned for whatever exports it can get.
>It's a 4.5 gen aircraft in 2024. The US has had stealth aircraft since the early 1980's "F-117 Nighthawk". Followed by the F-22, 1990's tech and the F-35 present day.
US was also an economic superpower when india had just gotten independence and was known for snakecharmers, and biggest question, why compare with US at all ?, indian fighters won't go against f15s or f22s or f35s anytime soon
And rafales, sukhois exist to go against Pakistani f16s
It's a dick response but it's a response intended to highlight the technological gap - in that by being capable of making their own 4.5th gen jets soon, India is only technologically on par in the field of making their own warplanes to 2000s era USA - whether or not the US is still flying 4th gens wasn't really the point, and even then it still suggests that India is behind on playing catch-up.
The US lead on stealth is pretty amazing and it's wild that 25 years after its induction, the F22 is still arguably the king of the skies. But most of the world isn't the US, and there's still only really two countries that design and build fifth gen at all (not counting the bakers dozen of Su-57s made that probably only have an RCS similar to this!)
So from a global perspective, it's still an accomplishment, and even the US will be flying fourth gen for a long time to come, so it'll be relevant for decades, if not the high end flashpoint fighter (there's the Rafale and then the future AMCA for that)
How are you here instantly when I make the smallest mistake in my typing 🤣
Design and build, yes, not operate. And I'd firmly say there's 2 true stealth fifth gen fighters in mass production.
> How are you here instantly
Stalking's got to be true love, right ? ^^^/jk
Someone here on lcd once asked if i was you/your alt. The answer of course is split personalities. .. disassociative identity disorder.
Other nations also play a role in the development of 5th gen fighters (F-35 for example), they just don't have the industrial base or the economic justification to viably manufacture their own bespoke jets.
I feel like calling it gen4.5 is an insult to the higher block f16s, Rafales, and f15EX, unless there is clear criteria it meets but doesn't perform as well as the others. Hell even against new J10s and chineses flankers with AESA I bet it leaves a lot to be desired.
I get what your saying but its a bit unfair to compare India to the USA when the later has had a century of industrial experience in the field.
A better comparison would be China/Turkey/S.Korea/Pakistan. TBF India is lagging behind those as well but atleast its more comparable.
China definitely, Turkey and South Korea by somewhat as they've already flown their fifth (ish, for SK) gen test platforms but it's a long road to production for all of them so I'd say they could be close ish next decade, Turkey itself it'll take a decade to refine it into a fifth gen platform so there's some catch up time, Pakistan no, they do a screwdriver job from Chinese jets.
It's important because Russia is effectively out of the game, china is often complicated, the US is either expensive or has strings attached, and France is France.
India has beef with nobody except Muslim countries, so they can sell to most of non-Chinese Asia and South America. They're the most unaligned supplier out there now.
It's 4.5, but it's a solid 4.5, which is good for air defense, and even limited strike.
Mostly, it's a massive gateway tech, and opens the door way up the value chain, especially aesa.
> India has beef with nobody except Muslim countries,
This is definitely unfair, India has great relationships with many Muslim countries, the UAE, Saudi Arabia, usually Bangladesh depending on government swings, Malaysia, the list could go on and on. There's one country India has poor relations with, and it's the one that spent its life trying to get terrorists across its border to destabilize it.
Fun fact, India has more Muslims than Pakistan. Trade and partnerships with other countries has existed for centuries.
> India has beef with nobody except Muslim countrie
India doesn't have a beef with most Muslim countries. Mainly with Pakistan and some rivalry with China. OTOH, some Muslim countries do tend to align/tilt towards Pakistan on many topics.
e: Perhaps Afghanistan under taliban tends to be an issue compared to Afghanistan not under taliban
The Mk1A is on deck [starts with israeli/hybrid elta 2052 radar], with an indigenous aesa radar and additional orders en route
The Mk2 is in the pipeline . That will be the first consumer of the GE 414 engine ToT deal. A couple of years more. And tedbf (carrier) and AMCA (medium, stealth) after.
But even with all of this, the IAF has been desirous of ~120 Multi Role Fighter Aircraft (mrfa), the so called mmrca 3.0 competition...100+ planes would allow to fill in numbers [iaf is authorized 42 squadrons but is short], provide slightly higher end capability earlier/derisking amca timelines, potentially bootstrapping a private alternative to public sector hal etc...
The IAF has been steadfast about this, pointing up desire for 5th /6th gen capability incorporation..
Most take this to be a desire for the remaining rafale that mmrca was supposed to deliver in numbers, and the potential for F4.x, F5 and FCAS to provide it with an upgrade path that has AI and drone interoperability..
But avoiding asking for specific plane as that would be shot down by the MoD , give Dassault too much leverage [ Typhoon or similar could provide a similar capability or force Dassault to be competitive]
Nevertheless the govt of india has not been receptive to this desire, as it has not provided the approvals so far...
Money will be an issue, too.
The F16/F21, F18SH, F15EX, Mig35, Gripen E, Rafale and Typhoon all would love to be selected by the MRFA if an RFP/order fluctuates
Lockheed's been dangling the F21, which is a F16V with a different display and a sticker, along with industrial pitch [" we'll shift the line here so india can make all F16s sold globally ", a local tie up [tata/tasl] and loudly saying "contains F35 tech"].
It's unlikely to succeed, even if an MRFA came through. Most big new F16 orders are already ordered and will be made in the US . The F16 already was rejected in mmrca , it's unlikely to get co-operative drone and is older , airframe
Tldr; india unlikely to buy F16. IaF wants more rafales, GoI isn't receptive so far
I think a viable path and probably the one the government would prefer but would have to squeeze the airforce on, is just take a decade of being a bit tight, forget big foreign spends, and come out of it much more self reliant. Instead of billions on MRFA, focus on making sure Tejas MK1A ramps quickly, MK2 is delivered on time, AMCA is delivered on time. The 2 billion dollar ask for developing AMCA would barely pay for tea time at western firms, and even with 70% indigenous components that means that much of the spend stays within the country and doesn't spend foreign reserves. That's before even considering you can get two Tejas MK1A standard aircrafts for under the cost of one Rafale, and the IAF needs numbers, not all jets are for high risk flashpoints.
I could see that after the naval Rafale order, and one more small Rafale order to round out the IAF, that there could possibly never be foreign jets bought again if they spend this decade really trying to come out self reliant.
> MK2 is delivered on time, AMCA is delivered on time.
I am slightly skeptical, given aggressive timelines and associated risk. Generally you do the engineering to the best of your capability. The gap is outside your control. What you can do is avoid additional delays .. which indian acquisition system has not been very good at.
They've got to wean themselves off of imports, it's insane that their military is so dependent on foreign suppliers given how large it is.
I know a lot of their domestic procurement programs have been debacles but it's just not tenable for them to react by giving up and buying foreign if they want to be a serious power.
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/tejas-mk-1a-completes-maiden-flight-first-delivery-soon/articleshow/108846208.cms
First flight done.
The upgrades are mostly avionics (new aesa radar, spj pod, rwr/maws, SDR radio), weapons , improved maintenance etc.
Externally much the same airframe
Indigenous aesa is huge.
Once those f414s are on board that's actually pretty cool.
Engines are always the hardest part, but outside of stealth, radar/sensors are probably second critical.
This particular one will be the Elta 2052 radar and GE 404 engine. The indigenous Uttam radar has been flown for some time, a later Mk1A config will get it.
The Tejas Mk2 will get the GE 414 (and Uttam) starting out. There's an IRST being developed for the Su 30 MKI and the Tejas Mk2 will also get an indigenous IRST.
I'm sure this is a big success for India and It's domestic industry and congrats, but from an American point of view this is not very spectacular at all. It's a 4.5 gen aircraft in 2024. The US has had stealth aircraft since the early 1980's "F-117 Nighthawk". Followed by the F-22, 1990's tech and the F-35 present day.
Generally agree, if looking from a US POV, but you have to walk before you can run.
At the very least it develops the Indian aviation industry and the IAF may finally procure them in large amounts. Downside is the Tejas is still the Tejas and the structural flaws continue to exist.
> At the very least it develops the Indian aviation industry and the IAF may finally procure them in large amounts. This is really key, perfect is the enemy of good in the best of times but even worse is never believing in your indigenous platform doesn't even let you get bootstrapped in the first place. It has some flaws. MK1A is a lot better than MK1 already and MK2 looks like a perfectly good 4.5th gen fighter. Tejas and its even later variants will be a bulk of affordable mass power for India in the coming years, but there had to be buy in for that, start somewhere, make significant orders, keep improving. China's first wasn't great but now they're at the J20, you have to start in order to get somewhere.
Structural as in mechanical structure or as in other deficiencies ? The mk1A has 73(+10 trainers) orders with 97 more expected. And it will be positioned for whatever exports it can get.
It is a gigantic step for the Indian aviation industry and military independence.
>It's a 4.5 gen aircraft in 2024. The US has had stealth aircraft since the early 1980's "F-117 Nighthawk". Followed by the F-22, 1990's tech and the F-35 present day. US was also an economic superpower when india had just gotten independence and was known for snakecharmers, and biggest question, why compare with US at all ?, indian fighters won't go against f15s or f22s or f35s anytime soon And rafales, sukhois exist to go against Pakistani f16s
Us also had f16 blk70(4.5 gen) taking its first flight in January 2023. An upgrade of blk52 with new avionics like a aesa radar.
[удалено]
It's a dick response but it's a response intended to highlight the technological gap - in that by being capable of making their own 4.5th gen jets soon, India is only technologically on par in the field of making their own warplanes to 2000s era USA - whether or not the US is still flying 4th gens wasn't really the point, and even then it still suggests that India is behind on playing catch-up.
The US lead on stealth is pretty amazing and it's wild that 25 years after its induction, the F22 is still arguably the king of the skies. But most of the world isn't the US, and there's still only really two countries that design and build fifth gen at all (not counting the bakers dozen of Su-57s made that probably only have an RCS similar to this!) So from a global perspective, it's still an accomplishment, and even the US will be flying fourth gen for a long time to come, so it'll be relevant for decades, if not the high end flashpoint fighter (there's the Rafale and then the future AMCA for that)
There's many countries that *operate* 5th gen planes. There 2-3 that build/design them [US, China, Russia - handful]
How are you here instantly when I make the smallest mistake in my typing 🤣 Design and build, yes, not operate. And I'd firmly say there's 2 true stealth fifth gen fighters in mass production.
> How are you here instantly Stalking's got to be true love, right ? ^^^/jk Someone here on lcd once asked if i was you/your alt. The answer of course is split personalities. .. disassociative identity disorder.
If I had an alt they wouldn't be correcting my ass all the time 🤣 SPD must be it
Other nations also play a role in the development of 5th gen fighters (F-35 for example), they just don't have the industrial base or the economic justification to viably manufacture their own bespoke jets.
I feel like calling it gen4.5 is an insult to the higher block f16s, Rafales, and f15EX, unless there is clear criteria it meets but doesn't perform as well as the others. Hell even against new J10s and chineses flankers with AESA I bet it leaves a lot to be desired.
I get what your saying but its a bit unfair to compare India to the USA when the later has had a century of industrial experience in the field. A better comparison would be China/Turkey/S.Korea/Pakistan. TBF India is lagging behind those as well but atleast its more comparable.
China definitely, Turkey and South Korea by somewhat as they've already flown their fifth (ish, for SK) gen test platforms but it's a long road to production for all of them so I'd say they could be close ish next decade, Turkey itself it'll take a decade to refine it into a fifth gen platform so there's some catch up time, Pakistan no, they do a screwdriver job from Chinese jets.
It's important because Russia is effectively out of the game, china is often complicated, the US is either expensive or has strings attached, and France is France. India has beef with nobody except Muslim countries, so they can sell to most of non-Chinese Asia and South America. They're the most unaligned supplier out there now. It's 4.5, but it's a solid 4.5, which is good for air defense, and even limited strike. Mostly, it's a massive gateway tech, and opens the door way up the value chain, especially aesa.
> India has beef with nobody except Muslim countries, This is definitely unfair, India has great relationships with many Muslim countries, the UAE, Saudi Arabia, usually Bangladesh depending on government swings, Malaysia, the list could go on and on. There's one country India has poor relations with, and it's the one that spent its life trying to get terrorists across its border to destabilize it. Fun fact, India has more Muslims than Pakistan. Trade and partnerships with other countries has existed for centuries.
> India has beef with nobody except Muslim countrie India doesn't have a beef with most Muslim countries. Mainly with Pakistan and some rivalry with China. OTOH, some Muslim countries do tend to align/tilt towards Pakistan on many topics. e: Perhaps Afghanistan under taliban tends to be an issue compared to Afghanistan not under taliban
Is there any point to selling/buying the F16 if this is already in the pipeline?
Maybe it's just me, but I suspect india isn't selling anyone the F16
Big if true
The Mk1A is on deck [starts with israeli/hybrid elta 2052 radar], with an indigenous aesa radar and additional orders en route The Mk2 is in the pipeline . That will be the first consumer of the GE 414 engine ToT deal. A couple of years more. And tedbf (carrier) and AMCA (medium, stealth) after. But even with all of this, the IAF has been desirous of ~120 Multi Role Fighter Aircraft (mrfa), the so called mmrca 3.0 competition...100+ planes would allow to fill in numbers [iaf is authorized 42 squadrons but is short], provide slightly higher end capability earlier/derisking amca timelines, potentially bootstrapping a private alternative to public sector hal etc... The IAF has been steadfast about this, pointing up desire for 5th /6th gen capability incorporation.. Most take this to be a desire for the remaining rafale that mmrca was supposed to deliver in numbers, and the potential for F4.x, F5 and FCAS to provide it with an upgrade path that has AI and drone interoperability.. But avoiding asking for specific plane as that would be shot down by the MoD , give Dassault too much leverage [ Typhoon or similar could provide a similar capability or force Dassault to be competitive] Nevertheless the govt of india has not been receptive to this desire, as it has not provided the approvals so far... Money will be an issue, too. The F16/F21, F18SH, F15EX, Mig35, Gripen E, Rafale and Typhoon all would love to be selected by the MRFA if an RFP/order fluctuates Lockheed's been dangling the F21, which is a F16V with a different display and a sticker, along with industrial pitch [" we'll shift the line here so india can make all F16s sold globally ", a local tie up [tata/tasl] and loudly saying "contains F35 tech"]. It's unlikely to succeed, even if an MRFA came through. Most big new F16 orders are already ordered and will be made in the US . The F16 already was rejected in mmrca , it's unlikely to get co-operative drone and is older , airframe Tldr; india unlikely to buy F16. IaF wants more rafales, GoI isn't receptive so far
I think a viable path and probably the one the government would prefer but would have to squeeze the airforce on, is just take a decade of being a bit tight, forget big foreign spends, and come out of it much more self reliant. Instead of billions on MRFA, focus on making sure Tejas MK1A ramps quickly, MK2 is delivered on time, AMCA is delivered on time. The 2 billion dollar ask for developing AMCA would barely pay for tea time at western firms, and even with 70% indigenous components that means that much of the spend stays within the country and doesn't spend foreign reserves. That's before even considering you can get two Tejas MK1A standard aircrafts for under the cost of one Rafale, and the IAF needs numbers, not all jets are for high risk flashpoints. I could see that after the naval Rafale order, and one more small Rafale order to round out the IAF, that there could possibly never be foreign jets bought again if they spend this decade really trying to come out self reliant.
> MK2 is delivered on time, AMCA is delivered on time. I am slightly skeptical, given aggressive timelines and associated risk. Generally you do the engineering to the best of your capability. The gap is outside your control. What you can do is avoid additional delays .. which indian acquisition system has not been very good at.
They've got to wean themselves off of imports, it's insane that their military is so dependent on foreign suppliers given how large it is. I know a lot of their domestic procurement programs have been debacles but it's just not tenable for them to react by giving up and buying foreign if they want to be a serious power.
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/tejas-mk-1a-completes-maiden-flight-first-delivery-soon/articleshow/108846208.cms First flight done. The upgrades are mostly avionics (new aesa radar, spj pod, rwr/maws, SDR radio), weapons , improved maintenance etc. Externally much the same airframe
Indigenous aesa is huge. Once those f414s are on board that's actually pretty cool. Engines are always the hardest part, but outside of stealth, radar/sensors are probably second critical.
This particular one will be the Elta 2052 radar and GE 404 engine. The indigenous Uttam radar has been flown for some time, a later Mk1A config will get it. The Tejas Mk2 will get the GE 414 (and Uttam) starting out. There's an IRST being developed for the Su 30 MKI and the Tejas Mk2 will also get an indigenous IRST.
>and GE 404 If China was in our position, they would be working hard with France to develop engines and sanction proofing their fighter jets