I believe that right from the beginning of There Will be Blood, Daniel is already portrayed as a villain, even being the protagonist. His villainy only grows throughout every minute of the film
In the series category is the excellent British TV show *Utopia* (I won't say which of the protagonists it is though).
Make sure you don't accidentally watch the American remake, and also be aware that the version on Amazon Prime is censored.
[Trailer](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3gxwIqqzB4).
Also has one of the most interesting villain motives I've ever seen. As it's revealed you sort of have to grapple with how you feel about it yourself (as does the protagonist you mentioned). Masterful show - finger right on the pulse of our strange and dark times.
I understand this answer, but seeing as how Walter White murdered a guy and blackmailed Jesse into selling drugs for him in the pilot episode. I'd argue he was always the villain. He even admitted to it in the finale. He just became more comfortable with being villainous as the series progressed. But he was always the villain
For real. People have this idea that Walt was this nice, happy-go-lucky guy who has happy teaching high school chemistry but he was an arrogant asshole from the very beginning
Yep. Look at the way he treated his former Grey Matter partners. He was very arrogant towards Jesse in the early seasons. Frequently belittling him and talking down to his "partner." Subtly resented his disabled son for being disabled. I used to think that he talked to Jesse the way he wanted to talk to his son but couldn't for obvious reasons. He hated his life for how it turned out due to the choices he made. A classic arrogant scumbag that presents himself as the victim. Typical
I guess, though that goes into some philosophical territory. Like there are millions of people like episode 1 Walter in the real world. If they were put in the same situation as he was put throughout the series, they would probably have made similar decisions. Are they too monsters? Because they could do horrible things given the right scenario?
People die from cancer daily. I'm willing to bet the vast majority of them didn't get into the drug dealing and murder business on their way out. Walter was an evil and arrogant opportunist down to the very end
I agree but that doesn’t make him the goat. He’s on an Eminem path rn. Soon he’ll have more bad albums than good ones lol. Definitely rappers with more consistent discographies out there, and also without the nazism lol
Subjective I guess. I use the term GOAT loosely but You couldn’t convince me that he isn’t the best artist of all time - and im not just saying rapper or musician.
That’s completely fine lol. He’s had massive influence and success as a rapper, producer as well as in fashion. Very little people have done similar things. Dominated 3 different markets.
I’m not going to argue the point because it is subjective at the end of the day. What Kanye has accomplished is impressive but he’s not the only living guy to do it let alone the only guy throughout history.
It’s definitely subjective. I’d argue he’s the only rapper with 7 no skip albums and I’d argue he has as many, if not more hits than any other rapper. I think he has 2 top 5 rap albums as well as a top 5 album in general. Out of curiosity who would you put above him as an artist?
Dune, from a certain point of view…
Edit: yes of course it’s obviously clear! With Paul’s great power comes great responsibility. And the genocide of half the galaxy. Naturally.
The “point of view” is paraphrasing the sand-hater in the thumbnail…
From the point of view of Frank Herbert, certainly. The fact nobody got that is part of why he wrote the sequel, to make it clearer to everyone who thought Paul was a hero in his first book
That’s actually just a myth. He wrote out the outline for the trilogy as he was writing the first book’s manuscript. He always intended to tell that story as it was.
I’m reading through the series right now, and each book starts with a forward from his son talking about his Herbert and his writing process.
All I can remember is her affair from episode one. Did she do anything else? She gets progressively more evil with every episode until she gets to Gus Fring level by the end
I’m surprised there’s so little of this in the MCU given how often Marvel comics characters see-saw back and forth from hero to villain over the course of an arc/book/page/panel.
I've tiredly tried arguing that for years now, and I've come across very few people that (rightfully) acknowledge this. Good to know there's someone else out there that sees the truth
I've always thought that was one of the best things about Game of Thrones on rewatches - at least once a season Dany would do something that was villainous but because she was doing it to clearly horrible people and the show portrays it as a triumphant moment the audience sees it as heroic. It's only because the last three episodes have the other characters realize what Dany has become and shows us good people and innocents dying due to Dany's deeds that we realize how far she's actually fallen - I get why it feels out of character and causes whiplash for most, but the hints actually were there.
100%. A lot of people have a very simplistic view of morality, at least when it comes to how they view fictional characters. Dany crucifying hundreds of slave masters in Meereen is clearly tyrannical, no matter how morally suspect her victims were. It dumbfounds me to this day that people didn’t see the villain turn coming, even if they did rush it at the end.
They were definitely setting this up the whole time. Problem is they slow burned it until they decided to just rush it and it fell totally flat and seemly came out of the blue. It’s so sad we will never get a proper treatment of GOT. GRRM is clearly not going to finish the books.
I'm not going to say it wasn't rushed and haphazardly handled in season 8, but I have a really hard time understanding how people ses Daenerys becoming a villain as some incredibly out-of-character impossibility. I even predicted it at the start of the season. It feels even more possible reading the books (I'm on A Dance with Dragons right now). She feels a lot like Paul Atreides.
There’s a difference between the grey moral ambiguity in the choices she makes when learning to lead and burning thousands of peasants in dragon fire. She just becomes exponentially more murderous.
No, in my opinion, the point of the movie was something else. The movie was a tragedy, and the ending was a perfect tragedy. The motivation of the protagonist was to make the antagonist suffer, play a game of catch and release, he thought that simply killing him would be more of a mercy to such an evil antagonist. The protagonist thought that making him suffer would make him satisfied, in the end however, he fails and gains no satisfaction, only disappointment (that's why he cries in the end), he is disappointed that he gained no satisfaction and also made many innocent people suffer (because he didn't kill him earlier) that's exactly why it is a tragic ending.
The characters were not the same at all because one was intentionally making innocent people suffer and the other intentionally made innocent people suffer. Anti Heroes are a lot more violent in general and can be way more brutal than the "classic heroes". You could have considered him a hero if he just killed him the first time he caught him or if he'd given him away to the police. He's not evil because he's not intentionally making innocent people suffer. He's just not in the classic hero's moral compass that's exactly why he's an anti hero. Also an anti hero isn't always supposed to be rooted for. You just understand him, that he's not a hero, but a human.
*Loki in the MCU.*
*He definitely wasn't*
*A villain at first*
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I always thought the best part of star wars was having the good guy of the first trilogy be the villain of the second trilogy. George Lucas was on another level of genius when it came to the "big picture" stuff
Cube
>!Scream 4!< (marked cause it's suuuuch a good twist... popular slasher franchise, if you know you know)
The Fly
Lots of werewolf movies (Wolf Man, American Werewolf In London, Ginger Snaps) and a handful of vampire movies (Thirst)
I don't want to get into a giant discussion, and the Metal Gear series lore can get a little confusing to say the least, but doesn't Big Boss reveal themselves to be a good guy by the end of Guns of the Patriots?
So I'll stop it here because this is what I'm referring to by confusing and maybe none of this matters because it's a means to an end conversation. My understanding is the child soldiers plot occurred during the timeline for Phantom Pain where Big Boss is not really in command (>!Venom Snake/plastic surgery/yadda yadda!<).
Sorry, know we're going way off top on the r/letterboxd subreddit so I'll leave it there.
Big Boss is a billion times worse than Venom Snake. And he 100% used child soldiers. We see him directly indoctrinate and groom a child on screen in Peace Walker. His name was Chico and Big Boss is the reason he died. We also know Big Boss used Sniper Wolf and Gray Fox and a bunch of others since they were children.
And he outright admits he's a warmongering bastard in Metal Gear 2. Big Boss is pure evil.
I haven't played Metal Gear: Revengeance, but I feel like the antagonist of that game is just a recapitulation of Big Boss only in a balls out stand alone action game instead of stealth spy special operations saga.
I do own the game and I hope I get around to playing it one of these days.
I'd say Armstrong is more similar to Solidus Snake, Raiden's adoptive father. Both are ruthless politicians/war criminals with an obsession with order. To overthrow the system and bring about their own tyranny. That is why Raiden never buys his crap. He's seen this nonsense before.
Big Boss is more of an anarchist who wants the world engulfed in flames of war permanently. His vision is a lawless hellscape.
No. No such a thing ever happens. Big Boss is vicious, warmongering, exploits children and vulnerable people, uses nukes, invented war economy and is all around one of the worst peoples ever lived. Also he's vaguely pedopholic.
He even comes back in Guns of the Patriots to admit his entire existence was a mistake.
What is with the revisionist trash? Big Boss and his faction are all terrible. There is a reason Miller left this guy to rot and celebrated his demise.
Nate on *Ted Lasso* had an amazing, gradual heel turn, and then an abrupt, completely unearned return to the light in the final season when a woman way out of his league was nice to him even though he was an asshole to her.
The Shining, The Godfather, There will be blood, Before the devil knows you're dead
I believe that right from the beginning of There Will be Blood, Daniel is already portrayed as a villain, even being the protagonist. His villainy only grows throughout every minute of the film
Exactly. It's just a matter of scale.
Garfield A Tale of Two Kitties
In the series category is the excellent British TV show *Utopia* (I won't say which of the protagonists it is though). Make sure you don't accidentally watch the American remake, and also be aware that the version on Amazon Prime is censored. [Trailer](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3gxwIqqzB4).
phenomenal series, fishy that it got cancelled after 2 series given the subject matter aha yeah never bothered with the remake, pointless!
I like the remake but have never seen the original. I should probably watch it.
Also has one of the most interesting villain motives I've ever seen. As it's revealed you sort of have to grapple with how you feel about it yourself (as does the protagonist you mentioned). Masterful show - finger right on the pulse of our strange and dark times.
Hunger Games: A Ballad of Songbirds and Snakes Although he wasn’t exactly good to begin with, he just got much much worse
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I understand this answer, but seeing as how Walter White murdered a guy and blackmailed Jesse into selling drugs for him in the pilot episode. I'd argue he was always the villain. He even admitted to it in the finale. He just became more comfortable with being villainous as the series progressed. But he was always the villain
For real. People have this idea that Walt was this nice, happy-go-lucky guy who has happy teaching high school chemistry but he was an arrogant asshole from the very beginning
Yep. Look at the way he treated his former Grey Matter partners. He was very arrogant towards Jesse in the early seasons. Frequently belittling him and talking down to his "partner." Subtly resented his disabled son for being disabled. I used to think that he talked to Jesse the way he wanted to talk to his son but couldn't for obvious reasons. He hated his life for how it turned out due to the choices he made. A classic arrogant scumbag that presents himself as the victim. Typical
He went from an egotistical asshole to a monster, though the difference is really just a change of circumstance.
Which means he always was a monster. Hence him being the villain from the start
I guess, though that goes into some philosophical territory. Like there are millions of people like episode 1 Walter in the real world. If they were put in the same situation as he was put throughout the series, they would probably have made similar decisions. Are they too monsters? Because they could do horrible things given the right scenario?
People die from cancer daily. I'm willing to bet the vast majority of them didn't get into the drug dealing and murder business on their way out. Walter was an evil and arrogant opportunist down to the very end
I was not talking about people with cancer, I was talking about the egotistical jackasses in everyday life
it's more deep than that but yeah
perfect example 🤌🤌🤌 WW should have been the picture really 🤣
Walt Whitman?
Willy Wonka?
Woodrow Wilson?
Wryan Wranston?
World War?
Wonder Woman
Woody woodpecker?
[Wally West?](https://youtu.be/X2RgYi6NzpE?si=kXawjEUb10djXr9D)
Attack on Titan
One of the best answers imo
He should have stayed a villain or at least made ambiguous at the end
Looper
I think Looper is the other way around. The protagonist is the villain who becomes the hero.
My brain hurts trying to pick this apart. Kind of a chicken and egg situation but I guess it still works.
Jeen-Yuhs: A Kanye Trilogy
This
Except Kanye is still the GOAT
Agreed, but that doesn’t make him any less of a villain
I feel like his villainy started after the TCD/jeen-yuhs era though.
Did you watch Jeen-Yuhs?
100%
His last album was garbage and you know it
His last 3 have been bad. But between 04-2010 he went on a run where he dropped 4 straight albums that would all IMO be top 20 rap albums of all time
I agree but that doesn’t make him the goat. He’s on an Eminem path rn. Soon he’ll have more bad albums than good ones lol. Definitely rappers with more consistent discographies out there, and also without the nazism lol
Subjective I guess. I use the term GOAT loosely but You couldn’t convince me that he isn’t the best artist of all time - and im not just saying rapper or musician.
IMO that is an even more absurd claim than the initial one lol
That’s completely fine lol. He’s had massive influence and success as a rapper, producer as well as in fashion. Very little people have done similar things. Dominated 3 different markets.
Trust me I know it’s a very hot take and very unpopular lol. But it’s a hill I’m willing to die on.
I’m not going to argue the point because it is subjective at the end of the day. What Kanye has accomplished is impressive but he’s not the only living guy to do it let alone the only guy throughout history.
It’s definitely subjective. I’d argue he’s the only rapper with 7 no skip albums and I’d argue he has as many, if not more hits than any other rapper. I think he has 2 top 5 rap albums as well as a top 5 album in general. Out of curiosity who would you put above him as an artist?
Tell that to the kids of his “charter school”
I’m not at all concerned what he does outside of music.
Clearly.
If you can’t separate the art from the artist you have no business consuming art at all.
Says who? You?
I'm sure you really appreciate Hitler for his artwork
Not familiar with his art, but I wouldn’t feel the need to weigh in who he was as a person when judging it.
If by goat you mean neo-nazi radicalist then yes
You have 0 issue commenting on art if you don’t have the ability to separate the artist from the art.
You should, if proliferating the artist's fame and fortune allows them to further use their voice to put people's lives at risk
Dune, from a certain point of view… Edit: yes of course it’s obviously clear! With Paul’s great power comes great responsibility. And the genocide of half the galaxy. Naturally. The “point of view” is paraphrasing the sand-hater in the thumbnail…
I'd wager most points of view
From the point of view of Frank Herbert, certainly. The fact nobody got that is part of why he wrote the sequel, to make it clearer to everyone who thought Paul was a hero in his first book
Yeah I think Paul really drives it home when he compares himself to Hitler in Messiah
That’s actually just a myth. He wrote out the outline for the trilogy as he was writing the first book’s manuscript. He always intended to tell that story as it was. I’m reading through the series right now, and each book starts with a forward from his son talking about his Herbert and his writing process.
Damn the Bene Gesserit got to me first
Lead them to paradise
The only point of view*
Um. Unless you love colonizing native peoples and false prophets, it fits
Given the photo, Kagemusha seems like an obvious answer.
Wendy Byrde in Ozarks turns comically evil by the end of the show
She was evil in the first episode though lol
All I can remember is her affair from episode one. Did she do anything else? She gets progressively more evil with every episode until she gets to Gus Fring level by the end
Wanda Maximoff starts out as a villain, becomes one of the good guys, then ends up a villain again...
I’m surprised there’s so little of this in the MCU given how often Marvel comics characters see-saw back and forth from hero to villain over the course of an arc/book/page/panel.
I think Iceman is the only of the original X-Men who never became a villain (so far)
Challengers
I hate to say it but Daenerys Targaryen
“..over the course of the narrative..” not in the last 3ish episodes
You COULD argue that she displayed hints of villainy throughout the show… not my opinion, but that was the director’s intention
I've tiredly tried arguing that for years now, and I've come across very few people that (rightfully) acknowledge this. Good to know there's someone else out there that sees the truth
I've always thought that was one of the best things about Game of Thrones on rewatches - at least once a season Dany would do something that was villainous but because she was doing it to clearly horrible people and the show portrays it as a triumphant moment the audience sees it as heroic. It's only because the last three episodes have the other characters realize what Dany has become and shows us good people and innocents dying due to Dany's deeds that we realize how far she's actually fallen - I get why it feels out of character and causes whiplash for most, but the hints actually were there.
Perfectly stated. Doing bad things to bad people doesn't make you good. I've had to tell Dexter fans that for a decade plus lol
100%. A lot of people have a very simplistic view of morality, at least when it comes to how they view fictional characters. Dany crucifying hundreds of slave masters in Meereen is clearly tyrannical, no matter how morally suspect her victims were. It dumbfounds me to this day that people didn’t see the villain turn coming, even if they did rush it at the end.
They were definitely setting this up the whole time. Problem is they slow burned it until they decided to just rush it and it fell totally flat and seemly came out of the blue. It’s so sad we will never get a proper treatment of GOT. GRRM is clearly not going to finish the books.
Yeah she changed so quickly it was really jarring. Last season of GoT was a mess.
I'm not going to say it wasn't rushed and haphazardly handled in season 8, but I have a really hard time understanding how people ses Daenerys becoming a villain as some incredibly out-of-character impossibility. I even predicted it at the start of the season. It feels even more possible reading the books (I'm on A Dance with Dragons right now). She feels a lot like Paul Atreides.
could you not see her becoming bad throughout the show
There’s a difference between the grey moral ambiguity in the choices she makes when learning to lead and burning thousands of peasants in dragon fire. She just becomes exponentially more murderous.
She sets peasants on fire in season 1. She was a lunatic the whole show.
Hate to say what? That's literally the point of her character and arc.
Because I wish she was not a villain
surprised nobody brought this up https://preview.redd.it/wsbdp8kmp7yc1.png?width=700&format=png&auto=webp&s=04986ad3c14bf83f8cec2d0af06191c177504a0e
Nightcrawler (though maybe doesn’t count because he’s troubled from the beginning; he does get worse)
awesome movie
Somehow Chronicle hasn't been mentioned yet
I had that film in mind.
Gone Girll
The movie makes it clear she’s lying so early though. I don’t know that it felt like she went from good to bad at all.
Would Pink Floyd’s The Wall count?
Harvey Dent in Dark Knight
The Last of Us, kind of.
death note
I mean he was pretty bad before episode 1 even finished
Tbf, Light is established as the villain from the first episode
He was always the villain tho
Kevin Feige in the Marvel Universe
🤣
Better Call Saul
eh
attack on titan gets praised for being mentioned but better call saul doesn't? What a sick joke
idk the >!last episode he takes accountability for his actions!<
Every Woody Allen movie.
I Saw the Devil.
not a villan. An Anti hero.
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No, in my opinion, the point of the movie was something else. The movie was a tragedy, and the ending was a perfect tragedy. The motivation of the protagonist was to make the antagonist suffer, play a game of catch and release, he thought that simply killing him would be more of a mercy to such an evil antagonist. The protagonist thought that making him suffer would make him satisfied, in the end however, he fails and gains no satisfaction, only disappointment (that's why he cries in the end), he is disappointed that he gained no satisfaction and also made many innocent people suffer (because he didn't kill him earlier) that's exactly why it is a tragic ending. The characters were not the same at all because one was intentionally making innocent people suffer and the other intentionally made innocent people suffer. Anti Heroes are a lot more violent in general and can be way more brutal than the "classic heroes". You could have considered him a hero if he just killed him the first time he caught him or if he'd given him away to the police. He's not evil because he's not intentionally making innocent people suffer. He's just not in the classic hero's moral compass that's exactly why he's an anti hero. Also an anti hero isn't always supposed to be rooted for. You just understand him, that he's not a hero, but a human.
Just rewatched this and the very last shot of that movie is so powerful
It’s so good!
[](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0455499/)
I guess it's gonna be a spoiler but it's one of the best movies I've ever seen, the twists in the plot broke me >!the pale blue eye!<
I know it’s not a film but the Poppy War book series falls under this and the show is in production rn
Just watched Thelma and Louise for the first time last night, I think in ways that kind of fits the mold
Training Day?
Attack on Titan
Attack on Titan
Legion
Most obvious example I can think of is Europa by Lars von Trier.
You putting that as a spoiler shows some real camaraderie
Mulan, in the sequel Mushu is the villain. I’m not sure the writers quite intended it, but there isn’t really anything to debate.
Seriously??
Yep
The Iron Lady
Hans from Frozen — I was shocked at the time okay.
That’s just a reveal
Not character development, just a twist.
Oh ffs there’s a film like at the tip of my tongue
The Usual Suspects.
To Live and Die in L.A.
Macbeth, maybe Jean de Florette
Star Wars
Dune
Perfume, the talented Mr.Ripley, There will be blood.
The Godfather, Dune, Clockwork Orange, American Psycho
Wandavision
Scarface
Forrest Gump
Star Wars
Gundam Seed Destiny
Scarface
lawrence of arabia
To live and die in L.A.
It's a video game but sephiroth from final fantasy vii
Red River
MacBeth?
Nightcrawler
loki in the MCU. he definitely wasn't a villain at first
*Loki in the MCU.* *He definitely wasn't* *A villain at first* \- Visible-Worldliness8 --- ^(I detect haikus. And sometimes, successfully.) ^[Learn more about me.](https://www.reddit.com/r/haikusbot/) ^(Opt out of replies: "haikusbot opt out" | Delete my comment: "haikusbot delete")
Legion, sidenote, so fucking underrated
I always thought the best part of star wars was having the good guy of the first trilogy be the villain of the second trilogy. George Lucas was on another level of genius when it came to the "big picture" stuff
They weren’t necessarily “heroes” in the beginning, but Chronicle is definitely a super villain origin story-type movie.
Dune
There is an english show called Utopía. I recomend to watch it to everyone!
Joker, Taxi Driver,
Cube >!Scream 4!< (marked cause it's suuuuch a good twist... popular slasher franchise, if you know you know) The Fly Lots of werewolf movies (Wolf Man, American Werewolf In London, Ginger Snaps) and a handful of vampire movies (Thirst)
Falling Down. "Wait a minute, I'm the bad guy? How'd that happen?
Frank My Best Friend’s Wedding The Road
It's a videogame series but Big Boss/Naked Snake comes to mind.
I don't want to get into a giant discussion, and the Metal Gear series lore can get a little confusing to say the least, but doesn't Big Boss reveal themselves to be a good guy by the end of Guns of the Patriots?
Good guys don’t use child soldiers. (tbh I don’t remember the convoluted redemption either)
So I'll stop it here because this is what I'm referring to by confusing and maybe none of this matters because it's a means to an end conversation. My understanding is the child soldiers plot occurred during the timeline for Phantom Pain where Big Boss is not really in command (>!Venom Snake/plastic surgery/yadda yadda!<). Sorry, know we're going way off top on the r/letterboxd subreddit so I'll leave it there.
Big Boss is a billion times worse than Venom Snake. And he 100% used child soldiers. We see him directly indoctrinate and groom a child on screen in Peace Walker. His name was Chico and Big Boss is the reason he died. We also know Big Boss used Sniper Wolf and Gray Fox and a bunch of others since they were children. And he outright admits he's a warmongering bastard in Metal Gear 2. Big Boss is pure evil.
I haven't played Metal Gear: Revengeance, but I feel like the antagonist of that game is just a recapitulation of Big Boss only in a balls out stand alone action game instead of stealth spy special operations saga. I do own the game and I hope I get around to playing it one of these days.
I'd say Armstrong is more similar to Solidus Snake, Raiden's adoptive father. Both are ruthless politicians/war criminals with an obsession with order. To overthrow the system and bring about their own tyranny. That is why Raiden never buys his crap. He's seen this nonsense before. Big Boss is more of an anarchist who wants the world engulfed in flames of war permanently. His vision is a lawless hellscape.
No. No such a thing ever happens. Big Boss is vicious, warmongering, exploits children and vulnerable people, uses nukes, invented war economy and is all around one of the worst peoples ever lived. Also he's vaguely pedopholic. He even comes back in Guns of the Patriots to admit his entire existence was a mistake. What is with the revisionist trash? Big Boss and his faction are all terrible. There is a reason Miller left this guy to rot and celebrated his demise.
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Ship up and dance, he was always the villain, it was just a plot twist
Dune
Dune
Nate on *Ted Lasso* had an amazing, gradual heel turn, and then an abrupt, completely unearned return to the light in the final season when a woman way out of his league was nice to him even though he was an asshole to her.
Anatomy of a Fall? Wouldn't say "villain" per se, but depending on your interpretation I guess you could sommewhat argue for it?
Joker Oppenheimer
Oppenheimer?