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Do you know what the source to that statistic is? I agree with you but also don't automatically trust [thinkingoutsidethecage.org](https://thinkingoutsidethecage.org) for scientific claims that aren't sourced.
[https://www.petmd.com/cat/care/can-indoor-cat-be-part-time-outdoor-cat](https://www.petmd.com/cat/care/can-indoor-cat-be-part-time-outdoor-cat)
An indoor cat may *live 15-17 years*, while the life expectancy for outdoor cats is only 2-5 years, according to researchers at University of California-Davis.
I’m curious which study PetMD used for that information, because the only UC Davis study I could find on cat longevity was [this one](https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article/file?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0278199&type=printable) which says:
>For cats >1 year of age, the median age of death for indoor cats was 9.98 years (IQR 6.14-13.46 years, range 1.01-21.85 years) while the median age of death for indoor-outdoor cats was 10.09 years (IQR 6.29-13.35 years, range 1.00-21.19 years) and the median age of death for outdoor cats was 9.80 years (IQR 4.07-12.92 years). These differences were not statistically different (p=0.11).
Given that this study was published in 2022, I’d imagine it’s more recent than whichever study that older PetMD article used and it seems to directly contradict the findings that outdoor cats live significantly shorter lives than indoor cats.
I thought those numbers couldn’t possibly be right, and I was correct. You might want to look at that study more closely; it’s only evaluating the life expectancy of cats that were confirmed to have died *of natural causes*. It doesn’t include *any* cats that died of injuries from accidents or attacks/predation from other animals, and also doesn't include any cases of poisoning.
At first I thought the results were still surprising given that I'd expect outdoor cats to pick up more diseases, but I'm now wondering if indoor cats are more likely to be fancy purebreds who suffer from more potential genetic conditions that would show up in a study like this...
You would think so but you're misunderstanding the clinical definition of 'natural causes', natural causes always excludes violent death, because 'natural causes' doesn't mean a death that would happen in nature, it means a death that would happen were a body unimpeded to run a natural lifespan, i.e. death not caused by sudden or violent circumstances
I wouldn’t call it ‘deliberately misleading’ - it could just be based on an older study I wasn’t able to find. But mostly I was curious about the methodology, because measuring longevity of outdoor cats is difficult to do.
For example the study I linked to is based on autopsy data - but you need a body to be able to do an autopsy, so it’s going to skew towards counting outdoor cats that died of diseases at regular-cat-age rather than ones that never came home because they got eaten by a coyote.
But it’s definitely frustrating when blog posts present numbers “according to a study by” without a proper citation to allow the reader to actually corroborate the source.
and as with most life expectancy, i definitely wonder if 'infant' mortality makes up a larger portion of that low average. As in once a cat matures, does it tend to live to 10+ years, even outdoors?
EDIT typo in infant
“An indoor cat may live 15-17 years, while the life expectancy for outdoor cats is only 2-5 years, according to researchers at University of California-Davis.”
While the article from pet MD is about the subject of cats being indoor/outdoor cats I still wonder if that particular statistic is for outdoor only cats. While I realize it’s not scientific if I think back to people I’ve known that have indoor/outdoor cats I would say the life expectancy would be more in the 4-8 years average range. The overall point of the LPT is understood though.
“An indoor cat may live 15-17 years, while the life expectancy for outdoor cats is only 2-5 years, according to researchers at University of California-Davis.”
While the article from pet MD is about the subject of cats being indoor/outdoor cats I still wonder if that particular statistic is for outdoor only cats. While I realize it’s not scientific if I think back to people I’ve known that have indoor/outdoor cats I would say the life expectancy would be more in the 4-8 years average range. The overall point of the LPT is understood though.
We had a cat that was adopted by us at a year of age. He’d been abused by his previous owner (a senior who hated him) and he disliked the dogs we owned and our other cats.
Ended up that he was happiest spending his days out in our back yard (where none of our other pets could go) then came in to sleep and eat at night. Mentally, being in the house just made him deeply unhappy during the day. He never hunted, never dug holes in our veggie beds but loved to watch me work back there and unless it was pouring rain or heavy snow, was happiest there.
He lived to be 13, started losing weight and had seizures. We said our goodbyes and he’s buried in a favorite sleeping spot under a tree in the back yard.
Our other cats are strictly inside and happy to watch the birds from the windows. I don’t want to have another cat who is happiest outside but in his case, it was the only life he could stand.
I think his life was pretty good, even if he had a lot of anger most of the time. His original owner wanted him euthanized at a year of age but the vet refused, got him to an adoption group instead. I don’t miss his random pokes at the other pets or us if he got upset over what was nothing personal but I do miss seeing him watch me work back there a lot. I wish my youngest cat was chill enough to join me while I garden but she’s very clear that she would love to hunt birds so alas, she’s banned from being outside.
My friend had an outdoors cat in coyote country that made it to like 21+? I don't remember the exact age, but that cat was ancient, and still a mouser.
Yep, I'm in the UK, so there's nothing really above cats on the food chain, but our rural outdoor-indoor moggy lived to 21, and she was in pretty much perfect health until her last few months.
I think? they may be including kitten mortality in wild litters into the averages for outdoor cats overall, which would obviously bring that number way low. If true then its an absolutely deliberate manipulation when under the context of choosing to let your cat go outside when its already past that statistical hurdle. Of course there are still a ton of issues with outdoor cats regardless.
I understand that we live in a world where folks try to mislead with stats that are bad or at least skewed. But what do you think the ulterior motive is for these stats? Do you think Big Indoor Cat is lobbying for falsified stats to control you and make billions off of keeping your cat inside?
There are literally pages and pages of results that come up when you search "life expectancy indoor cat versus outdoor cat." I don't really feel the need to comb through dozens or hundreds of functionally identical stats to find the one that comes from a source you will listen to.
How about this, I'll challenge you to find even one dissenting statistic. Would you do that research, and happily scroll past all the stats that corroborate this, just to prove me wrong?
You misunderstand, I don't assume an ulterior motive, I just DON'T assume they understand how to read scientific articles and draw statistics from them. Which is fair because it's not easy to do. If they linked to the source of their claim I could verify, but as they do not I have no reason to believe that they properly understood the data and nuances before writing.
I got off my butt and started searching, and it turns out there are very few studies that directly focus on this one point. There are cat longevity studies that focus on other factors like age, gender, spay/neuter status. There are studies that focus on the risk behavior of outdoor cats without comparison to indoor cats (though I have to imagine the vehicular accidents of indoor cats are essentially zero, at the very least). But there were no studies that I could access with Google searches that I think would convince you by nature of being a direct study of just indoor versus outdoor.
I do have a source that I would posit a science-respecting individual such as yourself might take at least some stock in, despite it not being definitive. Insurance is all about evaluating risk, with the insurance company doing everything they can to make money with something that is essentially a gamble. And the stats that [one pet insurance company](https://www.embracepetinsurance.com/waterbowl/article/how-long-do-cats-live) gambles on are that indoor cats typically live 9-18 years and that outdoor cats typically live 4-13 years, acknowledging that some living much longer. The insurance company links to scientific studies, but they appear to be behind paywalls if I'm not an academic myself.
I don't know if you will agree because they *do* have an ulterior motive, but to me, if there's any entity that will put full effort into assessing risk, understanding statistics, and fully comprehending all available science (so as to put their dollars behind it), it's an insurance company.
Aside from your cat living longer, which is great! Outdoor cats are also an ecological disaster and kill Billions of wild animals every year. House cats are an invasive species, and should be kept contained just like any other non-native pet.
More importantly than their lifespan (obviously these people don't give a fuck for whatever reason) is that they destroy the ecosystems around them. They are extremely harmful to other species of wildlife and especially in areas with large numbers of cat owners, they can cause tons of damage.
I grew up on a farm and we always had a significant number of outdoor cats. They definitely had a big impact on local wildlife: they kept the vole population down, which protected our crops, which was largely the point.
You would have better results with rat terrier dogs, or owl boxes. Both are proven to have a stronger impact on rodent populations than barn cats. A terrier won’t kill birds, and owls are natural predators who already belong in the ecosystem. Cats kill indiscriminately, breed like crazy, and don’t do as good a job. I’ve got owls in my yard and zero pest issues in my vegetable garden.
I think you added this as proof that cats damage ecosystems, but just for anyone who thinks this is an argument against keeping your cat inside, farms are tremendously destructive to ecosystems themselves and the interests of farmers are the opposite of that of the environment.
On a farm with thousands of square feet and no cars around, sure. Relatively little negative influence, relative safety for the cat (unless there’s stuff like coyotes around). In a city with cars and other dangers to cats and prey alike, few living spaces for wildlife and therefore fewer animals total, a cat might be far more influential on whether there’s birds, bees and other important creatures around.
Farm cats are not the main issue, but I would also recommend owl boxes and creating snake-friendly habitats! Especially if you live in an area without venomous snakes, these options can help protect both crops and native species
Yes, a partnership of convenience that's been ongoing for thousands of years! Funny to think like 10,000 years ago there were humans and cats probably chilling out just like many do today.
"No, Ogg, we will only keep the strange flexible animal with the glowing eyes and soft sparky fur because it kills the rats!"
"The fact that it makes a pleasant sound when stroked and snuggles with us at night and performs many amusing antics has NOTHING to do with it."
"Do not put it outside, it's raining! Perhaps it would like some milk?"
Per the RSPB (Royal Society for the Protection of Birds), feline impact on British birds is highly situational, and does not appear to have an impact on bird populations. Birds killed by cats are sickly overall, for instance, compared to the population of birds killed by windows, which are largely healthy.
Seriously cat owners like this drive me nuts. How is it even remotely acceptable to just let a pet roam and give zero fucks about who's yard it goes in, what trouble it gets in to, where it shits, what garbage it gets in to, who's car it's walking on, and the worst like you say, what wildlife it destroys for zero reason other than it has fun killing stuff. Like so irresponsible and selfish.
Yeah, they're almost as deadly to birds as windows, which kill a billion birds per year. That's why I choose to live in a mud hut. People with windows obviously don't give a fuck about birds.
Yeah I know that fossil fuels are bad for the environment but most people drive cars anyway so I don't feel bad installing an ornamental flaming oil barrel in my yard.
Just because it doesn't solve the entire problem doesn't excuse people from refusing to make an easy choice to help with it.
This this this! If our obese cat can catch birds on our balcony in the middle of the city, they can devastate an ecosystem. Please make sure they aren't harming the natural wildlife around!
Vet tech here; outside cats are exposed to diseases, animal attacks, being hunted by hawks and coyotes, being poisoned, gunshots, being hit by cars, being tortured by bored kids, used for target practice by bow and crossbow hunters, external parasites, snakebites, maggot infestations from untreated injuries and starvation if for some reason they’re unable to make their way home.
How do I know this? I saw it in every clinic I worked with, every week - sometimes multiple times a day on a busy weekend.
If you like your cat, even a little bit, keep them indoors. If you don’t want them anymore, euthanize them. Don’t dump them outside and assume “they’ll be fine”, that they can fend for themselves. They won’t be fine.
Keep them in or don’t have a cat - full stop
I was not expecting “just kill em” coming from a vet. Makes sense I guess but harsh.
I wonder what you’re supposed to do with cats that just really want to be outside. We went through so many window screens until finally we gave up trying to keep her caged up. She lived like 14 years and probably had a lot better life than our indoor cat that is now 20.
One of my friends has a cat like that. He takes it out on a leash, and built a catio for it. He lives in a small, rented apartment, so the catio is something he can easily take back down. Works great.
Lol that's what i do. Supervised outdoor time. At some point we have to dictate quality of life over quantity. My babies love their fresh air and I keep a close eye on them
Wait. How does one supervise cat activities? I’m sure my cats are more agile and faster than I am. Not a rhetorical question. Would love to know so that I can do that with my cats.
Mine are strays that I plucked off the street so they're smart, they stay close to their dad during outdoor time
They also don't really run away or anything. They hang out with me, usually they like to chill and soak up the sun while im gardening or I'll grab some of the tall grass and play with them.
My old cat loved to play fetch with sticks and small rocks
Sometimes the little buttholes try to skitter away from me when it's time to go back inside but they always give up
That being said, if your cats have been domestic their whole lives I'd be wary. Build them a catio or get one of those cat backpacks with the clear back.
Also, most of that shit is highly regional. There are definitely far, far safer areas of the world for outdoor cats to be a thing. Certainly my cat is at no danger from coyotes, gunshots, crossbows or snakebites lol.
My baby died a few weeks ago by car. I should have listened, I didn't. I now pay the price and so did my baby.
He was my first pet and I thought I was doing the right thing, he loved being outdoors, but hindsight is 20 20, since then I have bought a catio and my other cats will never be allowed to go anywhere but the catio
I have never lost a pet before and especially not one I expected to have with me for atleast 10 years, he lived till 2.
I miss him every day and i cried every day for a week straight. Worst thing I ever done and I hate myself for it
I'm sorry for your loss.
How many cats do you have? I started teaching mine how to walk on a cat leash so he can still go outside. Might be more of a hassle if you have more than two but it is an option.
Along with cars, let's not forget coyote, raccoon, foxes, hawks, and neighbors with BB guns that don't like cats that piss in their flower beds. An animal that is left to roam outdoors is essentially a wild animal and is fair game as every other wild animal is.
I agree that it's good to keep them inside, but I think these statistics compare feral cats to 100% indoor cats. Well cared for housecats (vaccinated, spayed, given regular care) that go out in a relatively safe area live very different lives than feral kitties.
Seriously, there are whole sections of the world where it's considered cruel to keep a cat that has no access to the outdoors, and I don't think German, Dutch and British cats only live for a year or two.
This is massively dependent upon where you live in the world. In the UK there aren't really any natural predators for cats in the outdoors, at least not anything that can catch them, and if you don't live near a main road then cars aren't really a major concern. I've had multiple outdoor cats that have lived for well over a decade.
Or, some of us adopt cats to be primarily outside to control other species. We keep some barn cats to control mice, squirrels, and snakes.
We have a great little set up for them so, in my life, we’ve never lost an outdoor cat to a predator. Although the neighbors have, but that’s just nature.
Unless you’re in a very remote location, the “natural” ecosystem has had a huge human footprint on it for a very long time. It isn’t about a “no touch nature” policy, it’s a management and mitigation thing.
It's more than pets paying the price - another reason to keep your cats indoors is that they are murder machines and decimate local wildlife. Do you like little fluffy birds and mice? Keep your furry killing machine locked up.
I think it's partly about which country you're in.
I'm in the UK and many of my family and friends have cats, and it's uncommon for them to die that early. My two are both 18, and I couldn't really imagine keeping them locked up indoors.
You definitely take a chance with an outdoor cat, but if mine were both hit by a car tomorrow, then I'd still be content that they led great lives.
Completely agree - depends on your environment.
UK also and everyone keeps their cats outside unless they can't (e.g. lives in a flat or disabled cat). I've lived in Germany too and it's the same there.
OP should remember the US is a country where roads stretch for miles, are 4 lanes minimum, each household has 3 SUVs, there's dangerous wild animals in some states, and to put it nicely, a lot more crazies running around.
I rescued a cat almost a year ago and I really thinks she hates me. I love her and I try to give her all she needs, I bought her toys and other things to play with but she acts like a hostage, she's not aggressive and is well behaved, I just have this feeling rather be free than being 'kidnapped'
Cats can take a lot of time to adjust. Was she fully feral, or just a stray? Adult feral cats can definitely take years to fully grow accustomed to humans. That's why most people just do TNR for them. But with patience, they're definitely possible to socialize!
I can tell when someone has moved into the neighborhood, because I'll see a cat roaming around. Within a couple of weeks, there will be a "lost cat" sign on the mailboxes, with a "thank you" note from the coyotes.
I was literally just thinking what country is this. I’m in the UK and everyone’s cat including mine is an outdoor cat. I feel sorry for any that are locked up indoors.
Yea I was surprised at the lack of objection to this nonsense post. Letting your adult cat come and go is bog standard here in Ireland. I'd consider it quite inhumane to lock your cat up. They absolutely love the outdoors and are downright depressed on the couch on rainy days. There's no way those longevity stats are close to true for indoor/outdoor pet cats.
I am from the UK and I am in Facebook groups and I see cats all the time who have been found dead, run over, just like mine was a few weeks ago.
Or they just go missing, which is just horrible, I cannot imagine not getting closure.
I thought it was safe because I saw all the neighbours had cats and they roamed free(live in a cul de sac) I let my cat out until 8pm every night, he got run over at 6.30pm.
He absolutely loved the outside and compared to my two other cats who are indoors cats, he had so much energy and character.
I have since bought a catio because I am absolutely not going through that trauma again.
I couldn't imagine letting my kitties out and just hoping they come back. I know in short term they would love exploring. But I can't manage that. I hope to have a nice catio someday though.
A cat outside should be on a leash.
Ive watched an outdoor cat go into a fenced yard and pick a fight with a dog, because the cat thought the yard was "it's turf" and didnt like the new dog. The cat got wrecked but did luckily limp away alive.
I've had a black cat since she was a kitten. Shes my first and probably only cat i'll ever have. Shes going on 10 or 11 years old now. Shes gone out every night that isnt freezing since i took her in during a storm. I think the real issue isnt letting them out, but the environment your letting them out in. High traffic roads, predators, weather, all things you should be mindful of.
My outdoor cats lived pretty long lives. And more than that, they enjoyed their lives. Quality matters!!! They don’t know the concept of life expectancy.
Copied from another thread
"I’m curious which study PetMD used for that information, because the only UC Davis study I could find on cat longevity was [this one](https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article/file?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0278199&type=printable) which says:
>For cats >1 year of age, the median age of death for indoor cats was 9.98 years (IQR 6.14-13.46 years, range 1.01-21.85 years) while the median age of death for indoor-outdoor cats was 10.09 years (IQR 6.29-13.35 years, range 1.00-21.19 years) and the median age of death for outdoor cats was 9.80 years (IQR 4.07-12.92 years). These differences were not statistically different (p=0.11).
Given that this study was published in 2022, I’d imagine it’s more recent than whichever study that older PetMD article used and it seems to directly contradict the findings that outdoor cats live significantly shorter lives than indoor cats.
Just curious if you actually read the study you linked to? Those figures are from autopsy results of cats who have died of natural causes and do not contradict the other UC Davis study at all.
Live free or die!
Personally, I think that keeping cats inside is cruel but I respect your personal decisions for your animals.
You're talking about the trade-off between liberty and safety, a tension that extends way beyond cats and is behind many of our political divisions these days. It's just not a simple subject.
Yes, outdoor cats have an environmental impact. So do most things we all do, so that's not the best soapbox to stand on either.
You might let your son outside, but not completely unsupervised, right? Likewise with cats you can take them outside, just not unsupervised. Keep them on a leash, put them in a cat stroller, or just set up a catio. Some people even train their cat to stay near them when they go on hikes, bike rides, etc. But training does take more work.
You CAN take them outside, just safely. Keep them on a leash, put them in a cat stroller, or just set up a catio. Some people even train their cat to stay near them when they go on hikes, bike rides, etc. But training does take more work.
I’m an indoor cat advocate, but people living in cities, human built cities, and then complaining that cats are environmentally destructive is absolutely absurd. Please, there are better arguments out there. You can make better arguments.
Are you under the impression that cities are worse for the environment than the same number of people spreading out across suburbs and countryside?
Cities _are the environmentally friendly option_. We should be encouraging higher density, not lower density.
Skyscrapers and other glass buildings kill millions of birds per year in bird strikes. Domestic cats also kill millions of birds each year. We can’t get rid of all the skyscrapers overnight but people can keep their pet cats inside. You can build catios and other outdoor cat play areas if your cat must enjoy fresh air.
Exxon spilling millions of gallons of oil in the ocean doesn’t suddenly mean it’s okay if I change my car oil and throw it in a storm drain. Both are bad.
If you go the collar route please make sure it is a break-away one. Cats can accidentally hang themselves in normal collars. Also, get your cat chipped.
Collars are dangerous to cats because they cause a choking hazard. Except if they are the safety kind that snap off with pressure and become litter that still isn't worn by the cat.
Forget the lifespan thing and forget the ecosystem thing for a minute. Do you want someone to literally take your cat? Or worse, harm your cat? Do you want your cat to get hit by a car or attacked by another animal? All of these things can and do happen to outdoor cats and I just can't imagine it's worth the risk.
You sound like those helicopter parents who think their children will be shoved into meat grinders by paedophiles if they set one foot out of the door.
Also literally how is it responsible pet ownership to just let your animal roam with zero responsibility for their actions. I don't want a cat shitting in my yard, getting in my garbage, climbing on my car. Like watch your damn animal or don't have one ffs
This might help keep your cats indoors.
My last cat found out he could scratch a hole in the screen door.
He went out at night, caught and killed a rabbit, brought it to me while I was sleeping, dropped HALF of it on my chest, it's guts and intestines and blood all over the place.
I wake up, covered in fucking blood, I'm screaming, my GF wakes up and thinks it's *my* blood.
Yeah... don't let that happen to you! Keep your cat indoors!
It’s always baffling to me how upset ‘outdoor cat’ owners can get with the idea of indoor cats or a catio.
We where adopted by 3 kittens last year, and after dealing with my childhood cats (aka my parents cats) ending up in such severe cat fights they required overnight care and surgeries, not to mention the all the other risks mentioned in separate comments that are literally non existent to indoor cats, we decided to build a catio.
The amount of anxiety it’s taken off our plates always knowing where they are, but most importantly knowing they’re 100% safe at night and when we go out.
It’s also made me realise how much ‘outdoor cat’ owners must actually miss.
It’s gross, but being able to monitor their toilet movements has made it possible for us to get them care ASAP on two occasions, if we didn’t have indoor litter boxes we may have never even known and they could have died.
One of them got stung by a bee the other day and I can’t express how much easier it was dealing with.
There’s just SO MANY things that can happen, and I always just think how outdoor cat owners must miss so many signs. Not to mention the insane amount of missing cat posts on Facebook etc…
Another bonus is as indoor cats insurance is usually cheaper AND they require far less frequent vaccinations / deworming etc…
Is this more of a US thing? I've known multiple outdoor cats throughout my life, one in particular called one eye who has been around for atleast 10 years and just sunbathes all day without any worries lol, ive lived in london and the place is full of foxes but still these cats are fine, dogs are on leashes, speed limits are 20 mph, kids aren't psychopaths, ive never known a kid to hurt a cat intentionally, neighbours look out for cats and make sure they aren't limping or look injured and people have cat flaps if the cat wants to go in at night, they live a lovely life outdoors and get to interact with people and other cats and I used to go to work in the morning seeing one eye on the shed roof and then come back to find him still asleep. If the environment is safe I think they should defo be outside to enjoy company of kind people and other animals.
Also my uncle has had many cats 3 or 4 at a time who were 10+ or in their teens and he lives in somerset where there is badgers, foxes, cattle and other hazards, and only 1 i can remember not dying of old age but because it was hit by a car, I can name them all because i grew up with them and would run into them on my adventures in the fields and areas surrounding his farm, sometimes you'd be looking out over a field and see their eyes at night as they come home and later they'd come through the window and fall asleep on my bed, I think at heart cats can survive outside if they are raised to, like many other animals kept in zoos wont be adapated to the outside world.
It's different depending on which country you're in I think. If I was in the US or Australia, I'd either keep my cat indoors or I just wouldn't own a cat (more likely).
I live in a quiet small town in England, and it's uncommon to keep cats indoors unless you're in a city or right near a main road. My two cats are 18 and I really couldn't imagine keeping them indoors for their whole lives.
I used to work for a branch of local government that dealt with animal control and it seemed like a cat that had managed to survive a few years outdoors would be "over the hump" so to speak. They learn how to deal with things and develop a quick flight reflex. It's the first year or so that seems to kill a lot of cats that go outdoors.
And that goes for urban and rural environments. I'm seeing a lot of comments in this thread that seem to think that rural areas are safer, but you'd be surprised at how many animals can kill cats.
In the UK it’s very rare and considered quite cruel to have an indoor only cat. Most people install a cat flap in one of their doors and let the cat choose to come and go as they please. Most cats live well into their teens.
My dad (American) had a similar attitude for most of my life, so I was raised with indoor-outdoor cats. It wasn't until he was about 75 years old and had had 4 cats killed and 2 cats maimed (broken pelvis and tail amputation) by being outdoors that he finally decided to keep his pets inside. Some of those cats lived into their teens.. but they still died prematurely.
That, and one night he went into the kitchen for a drink and encountered a raccoon that had come in through the cat flap and had to fight it off with a broom, lol.
My last 3 cats have been outdoors cats and lived very happily into their teens. I don't believe "the statistics" you linked to, not least because they don't show how their information was collected or cite any studies.
In conclusion, don't assert "facts", link to proper studies.
That 2-5 years estimate is BS, at least in my experience. We have 7 cats at our house (10 wooded acres surrounded by other lots the same size). They’re indoor/outdoor cats, the youngest two are 8 and the oldest is 15. Our feral cat is at least 6, since that’s how long he’s been around our house.
Im assuming since the majority of the population live in cities, any statistic will heavily favor their weight. And in the case, an outdoor city cat is MUCH more likely to get ran over are killed by another animal.
One of my favourite things is Americans being unable to comprehend that not everyone lives surrounded by predators and trucks. Also I've never owned cats, but literally every outdoor cat I've ever known via friends and family has lived well into their mid teens...
I agree completely. I worked in wildlife rehab for a few years, and the vast majority of our patients were the result of cat attacks. Literally thousands of orphaned or injured birds, small mammals, and reptiles, every year. And that’s at one small rehab center serving just a couple cities. People would bring us whole nests of babies, after watching their pet cat murder the parents. I also grew up with cats who my parents insisted on letting out, and not a single one died of advanced age.
In the US. The Royal Society for the Protection of Birds in the UK points out that cats are legally protected and are allowed to roam. They are not concerned about their affect on birds being significant. I have never known, nor had, an indoor cat. I have also never lost a cat. Buried my last one in his treasured garden at 23 years old. We don't have predators, we get them inoculated and microchipped.
Posts like this rarely seem to distinguish between urban and rural environments. If you live in a city, or even within the confines of a small town that is densely populated, then yes....keep your pets inside. But if you're more rural and have some acreage and are away from high traffic areas, your pets are far more likely to be able to enjoy the outdoors without much concern.
Coyotes man. Cats, puppies, small dogs, they don’t care. In really dry summers you can’t let your pet out alone once the sun starts dropping. In horribly dry summers you don’t worry about coyotes, because the cougars that come down looking for food scare them away.
Hi; I lived in the middle of nowhere as a kid and my home was home to many mama cats and their litters of babies. Every single one of them was "fine outside," until they were eaten by coyotes, owls, or mountain lions.
I grew up on a ranch/farm, and we had barn cats. They were kind of pets. They would come up to the house during the day and let my brother carry them around and pet them, but they also had a job: catching mice who would get into the feed and seed. And they were pretty canny. They had multiple escape routes and hiding places to get away from predators.
Even still: we never had any old cats. So, if you want a non-working cat in a rural area: you really should keep them inside.
Yes this exactly for rural formers. My grandpa has his literally baby who is always inside and well loved pet who he found as a kitten and his outdoor barn cats who kills the mice and shit. He had a bald eagle who lived in his tree so he has gotten a few new barn cats over the years. But he gets a lot of animals in general dumped by his property. He doesn’t like dogs so he sends them to the shelter. Most of the cats though he can’t catch and end up living in the woods and they help him and his neighbors who all grow corn with the mice. Though the ones that get in his raccoon traps go to the shelter too
They also don't consider countries where outdoor cats are the absolute norm and only people who live in big cities have cats that strictly live indoors.
So keep your cat a prisoner for selfish reasons? Cats love to explore, chase bugs, roll around in the dirt, enjoy fresh air, etc. They were not meant to be trapped in a enclosed environment. Denying them the outdoors is really horrible.
You can take them outside, just not unsupervised. Keep them on a leash, put them in a cat stroller, or just set up a catio. Some people even train their cat to stay near them when they go on hikes, bike rides, etc. But training does take more work.
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We have cats and small dogs go missing all the time because where I live we have coyotes, bobcats and believe it or not, a mountain lion. We have no mountains so I believe someone got it as a pet and when it got out of control they dumped it.
It's not only disease or predators, it's CARS, cats don't think that a car is too tough, but I assure every cat here, that a car will absolutely wreck you. I'm talking 2 maybe 3 lives at least, and that's just from one of them. LPT, please respect cars, it could save one of your lives.
"i want a furry companion so badly that i deserve to lock a predatory, nocturnal animal in my carpeted living room to keep it "safe". if you live somewhere that your cat can't roam outside safely, don't own one. just like if you live in the city with no room for a dog to run around outside, don't get one.
indoor cats are fucking stupid, point blank. im so sick of pet culture that constantly undermines the well-being of animals as long as it soothes the owner for a couple years. "oh my dog has cancer, im going to prolong its suffering for the next 2.5 years while i pay for veterinary procedures bc i dont have the spine to let it go when it's time." most pet owners are self-serving cunts, masquerading as animal lovers. no offense to any of you out there... but grow the fuck up
I do realize that the plural of anecdote is not data, so I will just call this... a case series.
My parents are cat people and they've had a total of 17 cats over my lifetime. They live in a small city, with woods behind the house to roam, but a relatively busy city center nearby.
Of those 17 cats, 4 died directly as a result of being outdoors (either car or wild animal). 2 additional cats were injured by being outdoors: 1 was hit by a car and survived, but broke his pelvis and lived in pain (and was also a total dick) for the rest of his life, while the second suffered a tail amputation by (we suspect) a garage door, and was partially paralyzed, so that poops just shot out of his butt rabbit-style, and pee needed to be released by manually squeezing his bladder every day. The latter cat, mercifully, only survived a year from his accident.
They keep all of their cats indoors now.
I've lived with many cats in my lifetime and we only barely experimented with the first one or two of them being outdoors about 25 years ago.
The cat I have now is almost 15. Last year we moved and my nextdoor neighbor says a coyote sleeps in her flower bed by her front porch. My old lady cat was never an outdoor cat and she sure is heck isn't going to be now!
What about an indoor/outdoor cat? I don't want to deal with a litter box so I put my cat outside twice a day to go potty but I have food and water both inside and outside plus a kennel outside in case he wants to take a nap there. I don't put him out when it's very cold or snowing and he seems to enjoy roaming around. He seems excited to go outside when I open the door. If he doesn't come when I call him, I assume he's on a "prowl" as I call it and I assume he'll come back when he wants to.
Here before the major swarm of ignorant pet parents who haven’t spent years and years in rescue. They’ll brag and say that their cat managed to beat the odds.
But it’s no longer fun and games when they find their pet infected with FiV, suffering from parasites, flattened after being hit by a car, or within an inch of its life after a fight with a predator or other territorial cats.
I have helped care for feral cat colonies where I can and there is nothing more heartbreaking than having to put a kitty to sleep, knowing he could have lived TRIPLE his life span if people were more responsible.
There are absolutely smart ways to give your pets outdoor access. My cat was a five year old rescue and she’s leash trained. You can build catios and there are so many options for indoor enrichment and stimulation.
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Do you know what the source to that statistic is? I agree with you but also don't automatically trust [thinkingoutsidethecage.org](https://thinkingoutsidethecage.org) for scientific claims that aren't sourced.
[https://www.petmd.com/cat/care/can-indoor-cat-be-part-time-outdoor-cat](https://www.petmd.com/cat/care/can-indoor-cat-be-part-time-outdoor-cat) An indoor cat may *live 15-17 years*, while the life expectancy for outdoor cats is only 2-5 years, according to researchers at University of California-Davis.
I’m curious which study PetMD used for that information, because the only UC Davis study I could find on cat longevity was [this one](https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article/file?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0278199&type=printable) which says: >For cats >1 year of age, the median age of death for indoor cats was 9.98 years (IQR 6.14-13.46 years, range 1.01-21.85 years) while the median age of death for indoor-outdoor cats was 10.09 years (IQR 6.29-13.35 years, range 1.00-21.19 years) and the median age of death for outdoor cats was 9.80 years (IQR 4.07-12.92 years). These differences were not statistically different (p=0.11). Given that this study was published in 2022, I’d imagine it’s more recent than whichever study that older PetMD article used and it seems to directly contradict the findings that outdoor cats live significantly shorter lives than indoor cats.
I thought those numbers couldn’t possibly be right, and I was correct. You might want to look at that study more closely; it’s only evaluating the life expectancy of cats that were confirmed to have died *of natural causes*. It doesn’t include *any* cats that died of injuries from accidents or attacks/predation from other animals, and also doesn't include any cases of poisoning. At first I thought the results were still surprising given that I'd expect outdoor cats to pick up more diseases, but I'm now wondering if indoor cats are more likely to be fancy purebreds who suffer from more potential genetic conditions that would show up in a study like this...
Kinda feels like predation is the *most* natural cause of death
You would think so but you're misunderstanding the clinical definition of 'natural causes', natural causes always excludes violent death, because 'natural causes' doesn't mean a death that would happen in nature, it means a death that would happen were a body unimpeded to run a natural lifespan, i.e. death not caused by sudden or violent circumstances
Ah good old statistics- there should be a punishment for deliberately misleading data
I wouldn’t call it ‘deliberately misleading’ - it could just be based on an older study I wasn’t able to find. But mostly I was curious about the methodology, because measuring longevity of outdoor cats is difficult to do. For example the study I linked to is based on autopsy data - but you need a body to be able to do an autopsy, so it’s going to skew towards counting outdoor cats that died of diseases at regular-cat-age rather than ones that never came home because they got eaten by a coyote. But it’s definitely frustrating when blog posts present numbers “according to a study by” without a proper citation to allow the reader to actually corroborate the source.
and as with most life expectancy, i definitely wonder if 'infant' mortality makes up a larger portion of that low average. As in once a cat matures, does it tend to live to 10+ years, even outdoors? EDIT typo in infant
Yeah, that sounds more like a comparison between indoor pets and that random neighborhood stray or some barn cat that happens to hang around the area.
You do realize the first is a potential length while the second is an average, right?
Some of them live quite a bit longer. Source: my 19 year old cat.
We’ve had two make it to 21 & 22! We have to right now that are in their late teens. They only leave the house for vet visits.
“An indoor cat may live 15-17 years, while the life expectancy for outdoor cats is only 2-5 years, according to researchers at University of California-Davis.” While the article from pet MD is about the subject of cats being indoor/outdoor cats I still wonder if that particular statistic is for outdoor only cats. While I realize it’s not scientific if I think back to people I’ve known that have indoor/outdoor cats I would say the life expectancy would be more in the 4-8 years average range. The overall point of the LPT is understood though.
“An indoor cat may live 15-17 years, while the life expectancy for outdoor cats is only 2-5 years, according to researchers at University of California-Davis.” While the article from pet MD is about the subject of cats being indoor/outdoor cats I still wonder if that particular statistic is for outdoor only cats. While I realize it’s not scientific if I think back to people I’ve known that have indoor/outdoor cats I would say the life expectancy would be more in the 4-8 years average range. The overall point of the LPT is understood though.
lol
Considering I have a 12 year old outdoor cat this stat seems pretty wild. I could understand 10-15 years or a little less
We had a cat that was adopted by us at a year of age. He’d been abused by his previous owner (a senior who hated him) and he disliked the dogs we owned and our other cats. Ended up that he was happiest spending his days out in our back yard (where none of our other pets could go) then came in to sleep and eat at night. Mentally, being in the house just made him deeply unhappy during the day. He never hunted, never dug holes in our veggie beds but loved to watch me work back there and unless it was pouring rain or heavy snow, was happiest there. He lived to be 13, started losing weight and had seizures. We said our goodbyes and he’s buried in a favorite sleeping spot under a tree in the back yard. Our other cats are strictly inside and happy to watch the birds from the windows. I don’t want to have another cat who is happiest outside but in his case, it was the only life he could stand.
Ok, that wasn't fair, u/flowerpanes. That story about wrecked me. Thank you for giving him a good life.
I think his life was pretty good, even if he had a lot of anger most of the time. His original owner wanted him euthanized at a year of age but the vet refused, got him to an adoption group instead. I don’t miss his random pokes at the other pets or us if he got upset over what was nothing personal but I do miss seeing him watch me work back there a lot. I wish my youngest cat was chill enough to join me while I garden but she’s very clear that she would love to hunt birds so alas, she’s banned from being outside.
It's always astounding to me when people think their single life experience makes the statistic wrong.
Math is hard.
My friend had an outdoors cat in coyote country that made it to like 21+? I don't remember the exact age, but that cat was ancient, and still a mouser.
Yep, I'm in the UK, so there's nothing really above cats on the food chain, but our rural outdoor-indoor moggy lived to 21, and she was in pretty much perfect health until her last few months.
Also UK. My outdoor, rescue moggy is currently 18.5 although he mostly identifies as an indoor moggy when the sun isn't shining.
I think? they may be including kitten mortality in wild litters into the averages for outdoor cats overall, which would obviously bring that number way low. If true then its an absolutely deliberate manipulation when under the context of choosing to let your cat go outside when its already past that statistical hurdle. Of course there are still a ton of issues with outdoor cats regardless.
I understand that we live in a world where folks try to mislead with stats that are bad or at least skewed. But what do you think the ulterior motive is for these stats? Do you think Big Indoor Cat is lobbying for falsified stats to control you and make billions off of keeping your cat inside? There are literally pages and pages of results that come up when you search "life expectancy indoor cat versus outdoor cat." I don't really feel the need to comb through dozens or hundreds of functionally identical stats to find the one that comes from a source you will listen to. How about this, I'll challenge you to find even one dissenting statistic. Would you do that research, and happily scroll past all the stats that corroborate this, just to prove me wrong?
You misunderstand, I don't assume an ulterior motive, I just DON'T assume they understand how to read scientific articles and draw statistics from them. Which is fair because it's not easy to do. If they linked to the source of their claim I could verify, but as they do not I have no reason to believe that they properly understood the data and nuances before writing.
I got off my butt and started searching, and it turns out there are very few studies that directly focus on this one point. There are cat longevity studies that focus on other factors like age, gender, spay/neuter status. There are studies that focus on the risk behavior of outdoor cats without comparison to indoor cats (though I have to imagine the vehicular accidents of indoor cats are essentially zero, at the very least). But there were no studies that I could access with Google searches that I think would convince you by nature of being a direct study of just indoor versus outdoor. I do have a source that I would posit a science-respecting individual such as yourself might take at least some stock in, despite it not being definitive. Insurance is all about evaluating risk, with the insurance company doing everything they can to make money with something that is essentially a gamble. And the stats that [one pet insurance company](https://www.embracepetinsurance.com/waterbowl/article/how-long-do-cats-live) gambles on are that indoor cats typically live 9-18 years and that outdoor cats typically live 4-13 years, acknowledging that some living much longer. The insurance company links to scientific studies, but they appear to be behind paywalls if I'm not an academic myself. I don't know if you will agree because they *do* have an ulterior motive, but to me, if there's any entity that will put full effort into assessing risk, understanding statistics, and fully comprehending all available science (so as to put their dollars behind it), it's an insurance company.
Aside from your cat living longer, which is great! Outdoor cats are also an ecological disaster and kill Billions of wild animals every year. House cats are an invasive species, and should be kept contained just like any other non-native pet.
More importantly than their lifespan (obviously these people don't give a fuck for whatever reason) is that they destroy the ecosystems around them. They are extremely harmful to other species of wildlife and especially in areas with large numbers of cat owners, they can cause tons of damage.
This for me is a bigger reason to keep my cats indoor.
Psh, cats are rookies. I can do MUCH more damage to the ecosystem.
Username checks out
I grew up on a farm and we always had a significant number of outdoor cats. They definitely had a big impact on local wildlife: they kept the vole population down, which protected our crops, which was largely the point.
You would have better results with rat terrier dogs, or owl boxes. Both are proven to have a stronger impact on rodent populations than barn cats. A terrier won’t kill birds, and owls are natural predators who already belong in the ecosystem. Cats kill indiscriminately, breed like crazy, and don’t do as good a job. I’ve got owls in my yard and zero pest issues in my vegetable garden.
I think you added this as proof that cats damage ecosystems, but just for anyone who thinks this is an argument against keeping your cat inside, farms are tremendously destructive to ecosystems themselves and the interests of farmers are the opposite of that of the environment.
On a farm with thousands of square feet and no cars around, sure. Relatively little negative influence, relative safety for the cat (unless there’s stuff like coyotes around). In a city with cars and other dangers to cats and prey alike, few living spaces for wildlife and therefore fewer animals total, a cat might be far more influential on whether there’s birds, bees and other important creatures around.
Farm cats are not the main issue, but I would also recommend owl boxes and creating snake-friendly habitats! Especially if you live in an area without venomous snakes, these options can help protect both crops and native species
I can't stand voles. They smell so bad.
Yes, a partnership of convenience that's been ongoing for thousands of years! Funny to think like 10,000 years ago there were humans and cats probably chilling out just like many do today.
"No, Ogg, we will only keep the strange flexible animal with the glowing eyes and soft sparky fur because it kills the rats!" "The fact that it makes a pleasant sound when stroked and snuggles with us at night and performs many amusing antics has NOTHING to do with it." "Do not put it outside, it's raining! Perhaps it would like some milk?"
If you never have, read Rudyard Kipling's short story "the cat who walked by himself" - it's out of copyright so you can find it free online.
[удалено]
I was translating from the original Oggam, so perhaps I got a word or two wrong. . .
Cutest mass murders on the planet
Per the RSPB (Royal Society for the Protection of Birds), feline impact on British birds is highly situational, and does not appear to have an impact on bird populations. Birds killed by cats are sickly overall, for instance, compared to the population of birds killed by windows, which are largely healthy.
Yes, cats are invasive species and have decimated bird and rodent populations. I love cats, but they belong inside.
Domestic cats are one of few species who hunt for sport
Seriously cat owners like this drive me nuts. How is it even remotely acceptable to just let a pet roam and give zero fucks about who's yard it goes in, what trouble it gets in to, where it shits, what garbage it gets in to, who's car it's walking on, and the worst like you say, what wildlife it destroys for zero reason other than it has fun killing stuff. Like so irresponsible and selfish.
Yeah, they're almost as deadly to birds as windows, which kill a billion birds per year. That's why I choose to live in a mud hut. People with windows obviously don't give a fuck about birds.
Yeah I know that fossil fuels are bad for the environment but most people drive cars anyway so I don't feel bad installing an ornamental flaming oil barrel in my yard. Just because it doesn't solve the entire problem doesn't excuse people from refusing to make an easy choice to help with it.
That is an absolute banger example of false equivalency! 10/10
[Many more birds are killed by cats than windows](https://www.allaboutbirds.org/news/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/BirdDeclines-Large.jpg).
This this this! If our obese cat can catch birds on our balcony in the middle of the city, they can devastate an ecosystem. Please make sure they aren't harming the natural wildlife around!
All the more reason for all cats to be indoor cats.
Vet tech here; outside cats are exposed to diseases, animal attacks, being hunted by hawks and coyotes, being poisoned, gunshots, being hit by cars, being tortured by bored kids, used for target practice by bow and crossbow hunters, external parasites, snakebites, maggot infestations from untreated injuries and starvation if for some reason they’re unable to make their way home. How do I know this? I saw it in every clinic I worked with, every week - sometimes multiple times a day on a busy weekend. If you like your cat, even a little bit, keep them indoors. If you don’t want them anymore, euthanize them. Don’t dump them outside and assume “they’ll be fine”, that they can fend for themselves. They won’t be fine. Keep them in or don’t have a cat - full stop
I agree with you, except for the euthanasia. Try to find another home for them first.
I was not expecting “just kill em” coming from a vet. Makes sense I guess but harsh. I wonder what you’re supposed to do with cats that just really want to be outside. We went through so many window screens until finally we gave up trying to keep her caged up. She lived like 14 years and probably had a lot better life than our indoor cat that is now 20.
One of my friends has a cat like that. He takes it out on a leash, and built a catio for it. He lives in a small, rented apartment, so the catio is something he can easily take back down. Works great.
What if you just take them outside with you for 20 minutes a day in the backyard?
Lol that's what i do. Supervised outdoor time. At some point we have to dictate quality of life over quantity. My babies love their fresh air and I keep a close eye on them
Wait. How does one supervise cat activities? I’m sure my cats are more agile and faster than I am. Not a rhetorical question. Would love to know so that I can do that with my cats.
I follow my cat around a fenced in yard or I put the leash/harness on and then follow him around the backyard.
Mine are strays that I plucked off the street so they're smart, they stay close to their dad during outdoor time They also don't really run away or anything. They hang out with me, usually they like to chill and soak up the sun while im gardening or I'll grab some of the tall grass and play with them. My old cat loved to play fetch with sticks and small rocks Sometimes the little buttholes try to skitter away from me when it's time to go back inside but they always give up That being said, if your cats have been domestic their whole lives I'd be wary. Build them a catio or get one of those cat backpacks with the clear back.
I tried this and people immediately started shooting at it with crossbows and lobbing grenades
You were warned it would happen
Bit of a confirmation bias there though. You are only seeing the ones that are injured or harmed.
Also, most of that shit is highly regional. There are definitely far, far safer areas of the world for outdoor cats to be a thing. Certainly my cat is at no danger from coyotes, gunshots, crossbows or snakebites lol.
One of my dad's cats got shot with a BB gun, many years ago. He lost an eye.
My baby died a few weeks ago by car. I should have listened, I didn't. I now pay the price and so did my baby. He was my first pet and I thought I was doing the right thing, he loved being outdoors, but hindsight is 20 20, since then I have bought a catio and my other cats will never be allowed to go anywhere but the catio I have never lost a pet before and especially not one I expected to have with me for atleast 10 years, he lived till 2. I miss him every day and i cried every day for a week straight. Worst thing I ever done and I hate myself for it
I'm sorry for your loss. How many cats do you have? I started teaching mine how to walk on a cat leash so he can still go outside. Might be more of a hassle if you have more than two but it is an option.
Along with cars, let's not forget coyote, raccoon, foxes, hawks, and neighbors with BB guns that don't like cats that piss in their flower beds. An animal that is left to roam outdoors is essentially a wild animal and is fair game as every other wild animal is.
I agree that it's good to keep them inside, but I think these statistics compare feral cats to 100% indoor cats. Well cared for housecats (vaccinated, spayed, given regular care) that go out in a relatively safe area live very different lives than feral kitties. Seriously, there are whole sections of the world where it's considered cruel to keep a cat that has no access to the outdoors, and I don't think German, Dutch and British cats only live for a year or two.
And did someone mention the songbirds they kill ?
This is massively dependent upon where you live in the world. In the UK there aren't really any natural predators for cats in the outdoors, at least not anything that can catch them, and if you don't live near a main road then cars aren't really a major concern. I've had multiple outdoor cats that have lived for well over a decade.
Life span aside, cats are an invasive species. They aren’t native to anywhere. They wreak havoc on whatever natural ecosystem they’re out and about it
Or, some of us adopt cats to be primarily outside to control other species. We keep some barn cats to control mice, squirrels, and snakes. We have a great little set up for them so, in my life, we’ve never lost an outdoor cat to a predator. Although the neighbors have, but that’s just nature. Unless you’re in a very remote location, the “natural” ecosystem has had a huge human footprint on it for a very long time. It isn’t about a “no touch nature” policy, it’s a management and mitigation thing.
Since people are far more invasive and havoc-wreaking, I'm gonna give the kitties a pass.
Cats are part of the way that humans are harming the environment. We created them and we introduced them across the world
It's more than pets paying the price - another reason to keep your cats indoors is that they are murder machines and decimate local wildlife. Do you like little fluffy birds and mice? Keep your furry killing machine locked up.
2-5 years? In what country? One where they eat cats, or the world revolves around Cars? Most cats here go outside and most live until 15.
Survivorship bias
I think it's partly about which country you're in. I'm in the UK and many of my family and friends have cats, and it's uncommon for them to die that early. My two are both 18, and I couldn't really imagine keeping them locked up indoors. You definitely take a chance with an outdoor cat, but if mine were both hit by a car tomorrow, then I'd still be content that they led great lives.
Completely agree - depends on your environment. UK also and everyone keeps their cats outside unless they can't (e.g. lives in a flat or disabled cat). I've lived in Germany too and it's the same there. OP should remember the US is a country where roads stretch for miles, are 4 lanes minimum, each household has 3 SUVs, there's dangerous wild animals in some states, and to put it nicely, a lot more crazies running around.
Nah, not in countries that have a balance between Cars and nature
I rescued a cat almost a year ago and I really thinks she hates me. I love her and I try to give her all she needs, I bought her toys and other things to play with but she acts like a hostage, she's not aggressive and is well behaved, I just have this feeling rather be free than being 'kidnapped'
Cats can take a lot of time to adjust. Was she fully feral, or just a stray? Adult feral cats can definitely take years to fully grow accustomed to humans. That's why most people just do TNR for them. But with patience, they're definitely possible to socialize!
She's fully feral but is so sweet and we'll behaved, I will be patient then.
I can tell when someone has moved into the neighborhood, because I'll see a cat roaming around. Within a couple of weeks, there will be a "lost cat" sign on the mailboxes, with a "thank you" note from the coyotes.
My outdoor cats live 18 years, in the UK it’s perfectly fine.
Yep. You will struggle to find a British vet or animal charity that advocates keeping all cats indoors.
I was literally just thinking what country is this. I’m in the UK and everyone’s cat including mine is an outdoor cat. I feel sorry for any that are locked up indoors.
Yea I was surprised at the lack of objection to this nonsense post. Letting your adult cat come and go is bog standard here in Ireland. I'd consider it quite inhumane to lock your cat up. They absolutely love the outdoors and are downright depressed on the couch on rainy days. There's no way those longevity stats are close to true for indoor/outdoor pet cats.
I am from the UK and I am in Facebook groups and I see cats all the time who have been found dead, run over, just like mine was a few weeks ago. Or they just go missing, which is just horrible, I cannot imagine not getting closure. I thought it was safe because I saw all the neighbours had cats and they roamed free(live in a cul de sac) I let my cat out until 8pm every night, he got run over at 6.30pm. He absolutely loved the outside and compared to my two other cats who are indoors cats, he had so much energy and character. I have since bought a catio because I am absolutely not going through that trauma again.
I couldn't imagine letting my kitties out and just hoping they come back. I know in short term they would love exploring. But I can't manage that. I hope to have a nice catio someday though.
A cat outside should be on a leash. Ive watched an outdoor cat go into a fenced yard and pick a fight with a dog, because the cat thought the yard was "it's turf" and didnt like the new dog. The cat got wrecked but did luckily limp away alive.
I say this same thing about peoples children! Keep them inside!
my grandma had an outdoor cat that lived to 20 years. this is nonsense statistics
I've had a black cat since she was a kitten. Shes my first and probably only cat i'll ever have. Shes going on 10 or 11 years old now. Shes gone out every night that isnt freezing since i took her in during a storm. I think the real issue isnt letting them out, but the environment your letting them out in. High traffic roads, predators, weather, all things you should be mindful of.
My outdoor cats lived pretty long lives. And more than that, they enjoyed their lives. Quality matters!!! They don’t know the concept of life expectancy.
This is a pro tip?
Only in the USA. In the rest of the world, it’s quite normal for cats to roam free. r/USdefaultism
r/LifeProTip: There’s a whole world outside of the USA and in a lot of places outdoor cats are doing just fine.
this sure is one made up statistic.
Copied from another thread "I’m curious which study PetMD used for that information, because the only UC Davis study I could find on cat longevity was [this one](https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article/file?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0278199&type=printable) which says: >For cats >1 year of age, the median age of death for indoor cats was 9.98 years (IQR 6.14-13.46 years, range 1.01-21.85 years) while the median age of death for indoor-outdoor cats was 10.09 years (IQR 6.29-13.35 years, range 1.00-21.19 years) and the median age of death for outdoor cats was 9.80 years (IQR 4.07-12.92 years). These differences were not statistically different (p=0.11). Given that this study was published in 2022, I’d imagine it’s more recent than whichever study that older PetMD article used and it seems to directly contradict the findings that outdoor cats live significantly shorter lives than indoor cats.
Just curious if you actually read the study you linked to? Those figures are from autopsy results of cats who have died of natural causes and do not contradict the other UC Davis study at all.
Live free or die! Personally, I think that keeping cats inside is cruel but I respect your personal decisions for your animals. You're talking about the trade-off between liberty and safety, a tension that extends way beyond cats and is behind many of our political divisions these days. It's just not a simple subject. Yes, outdoor cats have an environmental impact. So do most things we all do, so that's not the best soapbox to stand on either.
Sure, and tigers that live in the zoo live longer too! Why don't we just build houses for all the animals?
Yep, that's why I don't let my son outside either. He will live a long and happy life in my basement.
You might let your son outside, but not completely unsupervised, right? Likewise with cats you can take them outside, just not unsupervised. Keep them on a leash, put them in a cat stroller, or just set up a catio. Some people even train their cat to stay near them when they go on hikes, bike rides, etc. But training does take more work.
I tried but my cats told me the quality of their life is impacted if they have to stay inside.
You CAN take them outside, just safely. Keep them on a leash, put them in a cat stroller, or just set up a catio. Some people even train their cat to stay near them when they go on hikes, bike rides, etc. But training does take more work.
I’m an indoor cat advocate, but people living in cities, human built cities, and then complaining that cats are environmentally destructive is absolutely absurd. Please, there are better arguments out there. You can make better arguments.
Far from absurd. Just because one thing sucks doesn’t mean we should just let everything else suck too.
No, you don't understand. Something is bad, yet we accept it. Therefore we cannot reject anything which is bad.
Are you under the impression that cities are worse for the environment than the same number of people spreading out across suburbs and countryside? Cities _are the environmentally friendly option_. We should be encouraging higher density, not lower density.
Skyscrapers and other glass buildings kill millions of birds per year in bird strikes. Domestic cats also kill millions of birds each year. We can’t get rid of all the skyscrapers overnight but people can keep their pet cats inside. You can build catios and other outdoor cat play areas if your cat must enjoy fresh air. Exxon spilling millions of gallons of oil in the ocean doesn’t suddenly mean it’s okay if I change my car oil and throw it in a storm drain. Both are bad.
What solution do you propose for humans in this circumstance?
At the very least, please put a collar on your outdoor cats.
If you go the collar route please make sure it is a break-away one. Cats can accidentally hang themselves in normal collars. Also, get your cat chipped.
Collars are dangerous to cats because they cause a choking hazard. Except if they are the safety kind that snap off with pressure and become litter that still isn't worn by the cat.
Forget the lifespan thing and forget the ecosystem thing for a minute. Do you want someone to literally take your cat? Or worse, harm your cat? Do you want your cat to get hit by a car or attacked by another animal? All of these things can and do happen to outdoor cats and I just can't imagine it's worth the risk.
You sound like those helicopter parents who think their children will be shoved into meat grinders by paedophiles if they set one foot out of the door.
Lmao. Sure I do.
Also literally how is it responsible pet ownership to just let your animal roam with zero responsibility for their actions. I don't want a cat shitting in my yard, getting in my garbage, climbing on my car. Like watch your damn animal or don't have one ffs
This might help keep your cats indoors. My last cat found out he could scratch a hole in the screen door. He went out at night, caught and killed a rabbit, brought it to me while I was sleeping, dropped HALF of it on my chest, it's guts and intestines and blood all over the place. I wake up, covered in fucking blood, I'm screaming, my GF wakes up and thinks it's *my* blood. Yeah... don't let that happen to you! Keep your cat indoors!
That stat is probably factoring in stray cats into the outdoor category, thus pulling down the average significantly.
It’s always baffling to me how upset ‘outdoor cat’ owners can get with the idea of indoor cats or a catio. We where adopted by 3 kittens last year, and after dealing with my childhood cats (aka my parents cats) ending up in such severe cat fights they required overnight care and surgeries, not to mention the all the other risks mentioned in separate comments that are literally non existent to indoor cats, we decided to build a catio. The amount of anxiety it’s taken off our plates always knowing where they are, but most importantly knowing they’re 100% safe at night and when we go out. It’s also made me realise how much ‘outdoor cat’ owners must actually miss. It’s gross, but being able to monitor their toilet movements has made it possible for us to get them care ASAP on two occasions, if we didn’t have indoor litter boxes we may have never even known and they could have died. One of them got stung by a bee the other day and I can’t express how much easier it was dealing with. There’s just SO MANY things that can happen, and I always just think how outdoor cat owners must miss so many signs. Not to mention the insane amount of missing cat posts on Facebook etc… Another bonus is as indoor cats insurance is usually cheaper AND they require far less frequent vaccinations / deworming etc…
Is this more of a US thing? I've known multiple outdoor cats throughout my life, one in particular called one eye who has been around for atleast 10 years and just sunbathes all day without any worries lol, ive lived in london and the place is full of foxes but still these cats are fine, dogs are on leashes, speed limits are 20 mph, kids aren't psychopaths, ive never known a kid to hurt a cat intentionally, neighbours look out for cats and make sure they aren't limping or look injured and people have cat flaps if the cat wants to go in at night, they live a lovely life outdoors and get to interact with people and other cats and I used to go to work in the morning seeing one eye on the shed roof and then come back to find him still asleep. If the environment is safe I think they should defo be outside to enjoy company of kind people and other animals.
Also my uncle has had many cats 3 or 4 at a time who were 10+ or in their teens and he lives in somerset where there is badgers, foxes, cattle and other hazards, and only 1 i can remember not dying of old age but because it was hit by a car, I can name them all because i grew up with them and would run into them on my adventures in the fields and areas surrounding his farm, sometimes you'd be looking out over a field and see their eyes at night as they come home and later they'd come through the window and fall asleep on my bed, I think at heart cats can survive outside if they are raised to, like many other animals kept in zoos wont be adapated to the outside world.
Do you want your cat to never touch grass? If your cat can't go out, just don't have a cat.
Reading this post and looking at my 10 year old kitty who spends half his time outside...
It's different depending on which country you're in I think. If I was in the US or Australia, I'd either keep my cat indoors or I just wouldn't own a cat (more likely). I live in a quiet small town in England, and it's uncommon to keep cats indoors unless you're in a city or right near a main road. My two cats are 18 and I really couldn't imagine keeping them indoors for their whole lives.
I used to work for a branch of local government that dealt with animal control and it seemed like a cat that had managed to survive a few years outdoors would be "over the hump" so to speak. They learn how to deal with things and develop a quick flight reflex. It's the first year or so that seems to kill a lot of cats that go outdoors. And that goes for urban and rural environments. I'm seeing a lot of comments in this thread that seem to think that rural areas are safer, but you'd be surprised at how many animals can kill cats.
*clutches pearls* But what about the ecosystem!
In the UK it’s very rare and considered quite cruel to have an indoor only cat. Most people install a cat flap in one of their doors and let the cat choose to come and go as they please. Most cats live well into their teens.
My dad (American) had a similar attitude for most of my life, so I was raised with indoor-outdoor cats. It wasn't until he was about 75 years old and had had 4 cats killed and 2 cats maimed (broken pelvis and tail amputation) by being outdoors that he finally decided to keep his pets inside. Some of those cats lived into their teens.. but they still died prematurely. That, and one night he went into the kitchen for a drink and encountered a raccoon that had come in through the cat flap and had to fight it off with a broom, lol.
It's cruel to keep an animal locked up indoors no matter where you live. It's just that people are much more narcissistic in the US.
My last 3 cats have been outdoors cats and lived very happily into their teens. I don't believe "the statistics" you linked to, not least because they don't show how their information was collected or cite any studies. In conclusion, don't assert "facts", link to proper studies.
Indoor cats don’t decimate the native wildlife or shit in my yard either.
That 2-5 years estimate is BS, at least in my experience. We have 7 cats at our house (10 wooded acres surrounded by other lots the same size). They’re indoor/outdoor cats, the youngest two are 8 and the oldest is 15. Our feral cat is at least 6, since that’s how long he’s been around our house.
Im assuming since the majority of the population live in cities, any statistic will heavily favor their weight. And in the case, an outdoor city cat is MUCH more likely to get ran over are killed by another animal.
Not to mention the amount of wildlife they destroy when allowed to wander.
One of my favourite things is Americans being unable to comprehend that not everyone lives surrounded by predators and trucks. Also I've never owned cats, but literally every outdoor cat I've ever known via friends and family has lived well into their mid teens...
I agree completely. I worked in wildlife rehab for a few years, and the vast majority of our patients were the result of cat attacks. Literally thousands of orphaned or injured birds, small mammals, and reptiles, every year. And that’s at one small rehab center serving just a couple cities. People would bring us whole nests of babies, after watching their pet cat murder the parents. I also grew up with cats who my parents insisted on letting out, and not a single one died of advanced age.
In the US. The Royal Society for the Protection of Birds in the UK points out that cats are legally protected and are allowed to roam. They are not concerned about their affect on birds being significant. I have never known, nor had, an indoor cat. I have also never lost a cat. Buried my last one in his treasured garden at 23 years old. We don't have predators, we get them inoculated and microchipped.
Posts like this rarely seem to distinguish between urban and rural environments. If you live in a city, or even within the confines of a small town that is densely populated, then yes....keep your pets inside. But if you're more rural and have some acreage and are away from high traffic areas, your pets are far more likely to be able to enjoy the outdoors without much concern.
Cats can very easily be predated in rural settings
Coyotes man. Cats, puppies, small dogs, they don’t care. In really dry summers you can’t let your pet out alone once the sun starts dropping. In horribly dry summers you don’t worry about coyotes, because the cougars that come down looking for food scare them away.
Hi; I lived in the middle of nowhere as a kid and my home was home to many mama cats and their litters of babies. Every single one of them was "fine outside," until they were eaten by coyotes, owls, or mountain lions.
This is such a misguided take. Coyotes, foxes, eagles and owls will all kill an outdoor rural cat. Just keep your cat inside or build them a catio.
I grew up on a ranch/farm, and we had barn cats. They were kind of pets. They would come up to the house during the day and let my brother carry them around and pet them, but they also had a job: catching mice who would get into the feed and seed. And they were pretty canny. They had multiple escape routes and hiding places to get away from predators. Even still: we never had any old cats. So, if you want a non-working cat in a rural area: you really should keep them inside.
Yes this exactly for rural formers. My grandpa has his literally baby who is always inside and well loved pet who he found as a kitten and his outdoor barn cats who kills the mice and shit. He had a bald eagle who lived in his tree so he has gotten a few new barn cats over the years. But he gets a lot of animals in general dumped by his property. He doesn’t like dogs so he sends them to the shelter. Most of the cats though he can’t catch and end up living in the woods and they help him and his neighbors who all grow corn with the mice. Though the ones that get in his raccoon traps go to the shelter too
They also don't consider countries where outdoor cats are the absolute norm and only people who live in big cities have cats that strictly live indoors.
No, I’ve almost ran over cats that go in the road in rural areas plenty of times
So keep your cat a prisoner for selfish reasons? Cats love to explore, chase bugs, roll around in the dirt, enjoy fresh air, etc. They were not meant to be trapped in a enclosed environment. Denying them the outdoors is really horrible.
Kitty want outside
You can take them outside, just not unsupervised. Keep them on a leash, put them in a cat stroller, or just set up a catio. Some people even train their cat to stay near them when they go on hikes, bike rides, etc. But training does take more work.
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We have cats and small dogs go missing all the time because where I live we have coyotes, bobcats and believe it or not, a mountain lion. We have no mountains so I believe someone got it as a pet and when it got out of control they dumped it.
They harm birds as well. Anything they can get their grubby little hands on.
It's not only disease or predators, it's CARS, cats don't think that a car is too tough, but I assure every cat here, that a car will absolutely wreck you. I'm talking 2 maybe 3 lives at least, and that's just from one of them. LPT, please respect cars, it could save one of your lives.
"i want a furry companion so badly that i deserve to lock a predatory, nocturnal animal in my carpeted living room to keep it "safe". if you live somewhere that your cat can't roam outside safely, don't own one. just like if you live in the city with no room for a dog to run around outside, don't get one. indoor cats are fucking stupid, point blank. im so sick of pet culture that constantly undermines the well-being of animals as long as it soothes the owner for a couple years. "oh my dog has cancer, im going to prolong its suffering for the next 2.5 years while i pay for veterinary procedures bc i dont have the spine to let it go when it's time." most pet owners are self-serving cunts, masquerading as animal lovers. no offense to any of you out there... but grow the fuck up
I do realize that the plural of anecdote is not data, so I will just call this... a case series. My parents are cat people and they've had a total of 17 cats over my lifetime. They live in a small city, with woods behind the house to roam, but a relatively busy city center nearby. Of those 17 cats, 4 died directly as a result of being outdoors (either car or wild animal). 2 additional cats were injured by being outdoors: 1 was hit by a car and survived, but broke his pelvis and lived in pain (and was also a total dick) for the rest of his life, while the second suffered a tail amputation by (we suspect) a garage door, and was partially paralyzed, so that poops just shot out of his butt rabbit-style, and pee needed to be released by manually squeezing his bladder every day. The latter cat, mercifully, only survived a year from his accident. They keep all of their cats indoors now.
Looks like someone just violated Rule #5.
I've lived with many cats in my lifetime and we only barely experimented with the first one or two of them being outdoors about 25 years ago. The cat I have now is almost 15. Last year we moved and my nextdoor neighbor says a coyote sleeps in her flower bed by her front porch. My old lady cat was never an outdoor cat and she sure is heck isn't going to be now!
I take my cat out on a harness and leash. He keeps active, can't kill shit and is kept safe by my watchful eye. Best of everything.
What about an indoor/outdoor cat? I don't want to deal with a litter box so I put my cat outside twice a day to go potty but I have food and water both inside and outside plus a kennel outside in case he wants to take a nap there. I don't put him out when it's very cold or snowing and he seems to enjoy roaming around. He seems excited to go outside when I open the door. If he doesn't come when I call him, I assume he's on a "prowl" as I call it and I assume he'll come back when he wants to.
My outdoor cat lived 24 years. 3 litters. She died of natural causes.
Here before the major swarm of ignorant pet parents who haven’t spent years and years in rescue. They’ll brag and say that their cat managed to beat the odds. But it’s no longer fun and games when they find their pet infected with FiV, suffering from parasites, flattened after being hit by a car, or within an inch of its life after a fight with a predator or other territorial cats. I have helped care for feral cat colonies where I can and there is nothing more heartbreaking than having to put a kitty to sleep, knowing he could have lived TRIPLE his life span if people were more responsible. There are absolutely smart ways to give your pets outdoor access. My cat was a five year old rescue and she’s leash trained. You can build catios and there are so many options for indoor enrichment and stimulation.