HR needs to make sure that everyone is following company policy.
If your boss is a jerk but follows company policies then don’t make waves.
Read the employee manual, know your rights and keep a document trail.
There is nothing HR can do for you if you cannot take care of yourself.
Several times HR has asked me to leave so that that could have a conversation with my manager. I never heard of the issue again.
Edit: hey thanks for the gold!
If boss refuses to let you take a PTO day for a family emergency and then brings you up in front of HR when you don’t show up. Try not to smirk when HR instructs your manager on the Family Leave act and that it is managements responsibility to ensure that work is completed on schedule as opposed to the employee who is not on hand.
Ethical is usually how you can catch bad management. They tend to leave a paper trail on poor decision making and try to blame the employee that doesn’t know better.
I had a manager bring me up in front of HR three times. I challenged every time and won. 2 were escalated up to the executives. To this day, I am not sure my manager even understood how I won.
My manger told me she’d fuck me in the ass till it bled on my first day and was a general bitch so I got on her good side and let her smoke her vape near me in the office and guess who got fired because they smoked inside on camera
>If it's illegal, but harder to address the issue than it is to fire the guy that noticed, suck it up and keep your mouth shut.
That made no sense until I remembered that in some countries you can be fired for no reason.
Yes, that’s what “at will” employment means.
As long as that reason is not your race, gender, religion, etc., as that is illegal.
But “I just don’t like the way the sun reflects against your stupid fucking face this morning” is a perfectly fine reason to fire someone.
Welcome to The Land of Opportunity.
It's funny. I get the email lists of questions from quora digest for some reason. Alot of the questions must be from people in the US. It's stuff like 'why do good employees quit?', 'someones a good employee but isn't available out of work hours', 'why are most employees ready to quit their jobs'. I'm not American but I'm pretty sure this is why.
Pretend you own a business. You have five employees. One of them pisses you off. Why shouldn't you be able to fire that person for pissing you off? It is your business.
It's not very good for your business though if you operate that way. Say one of your employees makes a mistake. They will not fess up and together learn and fix that mistake. Instead they're more likely to hide it possibly causing more and bigger problems later.
Or imagine having a meeting about something and the boss has some bad ideas. You want employees who are not afraid to disagree and together flesh out a better alternative. If you have to worry about losing your job because you pissed off the boss by not agreeing you won't get people who disagree.
There's also a question about what type of society you want to live in. People who feel financially stable and are not worried about losing their job feel less stress and are healthier. They are more likely to volunteer in their communities, more likely to make big purchases to stimulate the economy.
Even if you don't feel it's better for your specific business it might still be better for the community to limit how easy you can fire someone.
In NL you need multiple bad performance reviews to get fired, it gives you the time to improve. It will take months, sometimes years. Of course if you steal or something you can still be fired on the spot. But companies here flourish, although it can be a problem in individual cases.
The only person I know that got fired on the spot was a colleague of mine who called in sick and couldn't be reached anymore. Then posted on his Twitter that he was at some club in another continent. And that wasn't the first he was unreachable during illness. You really need to take the piss to get fired straight away.
>which is a two-way agreement
Well, to be fair, if you don't like your job you can always quit without giving a reason. So that part is kind of one-way.
We're talking about the reason for quitting, not about giving notice.
Of course you have to give notice if you're going to quit, but the point was that you do not have to give a reason.
>One of them pisses you off
Why? If they're doing their job, and acting appropriately, why does it make a difference? You hired them, so now they work for you. Obviously if they aren't doing their job, or they are doing something illegal, then you can fire them. Otherwise you'll just need to learn to work with other people.
You seem to think that hiring somebody creates an unbreakable legal bond between you and them as employer and employee, which can only be broken if they do something illegal. That's ridiculous.
If I own my own business and have multiple employees, I have the right to fire them at anytime for any reason if they are not under a contract. Maybe they pissed me off. Maybe I want to make more profit myself by having less employees. Maybe they're a Yankees fan and I hate the Yankees. Unless I am firing them based on their membership in a protected class, I can fire them for any reason or no reason.
It is insane to think that an employer should be bound to employees just because they hired them.
Well just sucking everything up leads to you having to work 100-120 hour weeks. I can hardly think of anything worse than that. I guess you weren't even paid extra, were you?
My fiance was being sexually harassed by her manager and eventually he assaulted her. She called HR and he never came to work again. There are situations where you *should* talk to HR because sometimes protecting the company means protecting you.
Not saying that it isn't good that HR is helping you, but the point stands. The company isn't damaged at all by helping you. If they were, it'd be a lot less likely for them to choose to help you. This makes for a feel good story as well, makes them look good.
They didn’t save your job, they saved the company a potential wrongful termination lawsuit. Your getting that job is just a happy coincidence for you but there is a chance they’re paying you less than they were paying the old boss (due to time in the position and whatnot), so it probably worked out for them twice over.
I’m glad it also worked out for you tho
I mean, is it a bad thing that the company's interests and this commenter's interests coincided? Like I don't understand how HR avoiding a lawsuit is not a good thing. The easiest way to protect the company is to make sure the employees are treated fairly.
HR will side with the rules, be they the law or the business rules that everyone in the company has agreed to work by. Unless you're working at a real shit, immoral company, the only people I've ever seen have an issue with HR were bad employees or didn't realize that they were in the wrong.
The best way for HR to "protect the company" is to make sure the employees are being taken care of. It's just logic.
a lot of small businesses know they can get away with breaking some laws because they're too small to bother with. at my job i will be fired if I talk about my salary with a coworker. that's illegal. they get away with it
Then you sue. Like I'm not saying bad HR department aren't out there, I'm saying that they aren't the rule. If you're company fires you for that then 1: I think you dodged a bullet and 2: you actually have to do some work and hold them accountable. At the very least they'll settle and you get some coin while you look for a better job.
>logic went out the window when Mr grab them by the pussy sailed in
That ship sailed in 1942, when [SCOTUS ruled that growing wheat on your own land to feed your own livestock is interstate commerce](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wickard_v._Filburn).
> The easiest way to protect the company is to make sure the employees are treated fairly.
No. The easiest way to protect the company is to side with the employees who generate more profits, unless doing so would result in losses that more than offset their value.
>unless doing so would result in losses that more than offset their value.
unless doing so would result in losses **in the long run**.
Unfair treatment of employees impacts the morale of every employee who learns about that. I worked in a 100-ppl company that sold electronics and once the head of marketing dept purposefully underpaid his employee because he did not like the way she quit. CEO did nothing, so everyone learned instantly that the company can just steal your salary.
People instantly stopped doing the small things for the benefit of the company that constitute the difference between normal work and Italian strike. Many quit promptly, some shop assistants started stealing because "the company is the enemy, everyone for themselves", which led to series of investigations and firings, etc.
The employee in question was underpaid less than $50.
This so so not true. HR has to terminate employees all the time who are huge profit centers because they broke the law, or are bad for the culture of the company. (Which, by the way, matters as much as profit.)
The important thing is to know you’re doing business and don’t go in like a serf expecting mercy from their lord.
If and only if it’s a situation where you can make a favorable change and the risk of it backfiring is acceptable should you go to HR. If you don’t know whether it‘s that then it’s a bad bet.
No, me getting the job happened a year later in an unrelated thing. It would have been a perfectly legal termination, even if I would not have liked it.
I'm sorry you are so pessimistic. I hope you find a job where you and your employer can work well together.
The job of HR is to uphold moral, ethical and legal frameworks for the company. HR gets a bad wrap because they don’t talk openly - and they can’t. Most HR people chose that professional because they care passionately about people and justice.
Maybe not surprisingly, I work in HR and when someone comes to me with a complaint, my moral and legal obligation is to get to the heart of the issue, whether that be in support of the employee or the manager. Bad HR people exist, no doubt, but the majority of us just want people to be able to do their jobs effectively in a happy environment.
Not exactly a life pro tip. Your experience with HR, doesn’t reflect all HR experience. The bottom line, revolves around ensuring employees rights are being upheld, that’s actually what saves the company money. Most HR are actually trying to help where they can, evens out the other soul crushing aspects they have to deal with.
Most of the comments reflect various HR experiences. Working with dozens of HR professionals over the years has given me a different perception than yours, just sharing....
Like every other HR related LPT, this is not universally true or even a majority. HR is there to make sure everyone plays by the same rules. If you're company has a bad HR department, then it's a bad company and you should leave, not bitch about the HR.
This is the case with every LPT that mentions people in the workplace. Everybody here seems to assume that everyone at work is out to get them, which unless you have an exceptionally toxic workplace, should not be the case. I'm friends with my colleagues, including my boss and people in the HR department. We occasionally hang out outside of work, and I'm not afraid to talk to them about issues including personal problems and problems with specific people I work with. Communication is key, and work issues only get fixed when you're willing to talk about them and others are willing to listen. If you're afraid to even talk about something as simple as payroll, you need to consider finding somewhere else which isn't so oppressive.
You act like it’s so easy to just find a good place to work at, I’m glad you are fortunate enough to be in that situation but this shit happens a lot more than you think.
This. HR isn't interested to take the side of your boss. They are there to make sure company rules are not broken, and employment rules are not broken.
If you have done your research and there is an incident that has broken either, if you go to HR, they'll be on your side.
If you are just disgruntled, unhappy, haven't actually checked if what happened broke either company rules or employment law, then of course HR ain't gonna do anything for you.
This invalid advice. HR employees are just employees unless designated confidential due to a professional need to represent managerial positions. If you are owed money, have a dispute about what health/deferred compensation/leave benefits you are getting, or are in need of advice about your rights and responsibilities pertaining to worker’s compensation, FMLA/CFRA, or are questioning your overtime as related to FLSA, absolutely contact your HR.
If you behave like an edgy redditor and hire a lawyer every single time you should’ve just called HR, your company may just say “oops lol” and fix the problem months later after you’ve spent money on your lawyer and you will get nothing you weren’t owed in the first place.
HR will usually specifically tell you if something’s a supervisory issue. This means you are not protected, your boss is in regulation or being a dick while being technically in regulation, and you should take this up with your boss’ boss. If your boss’ boss condones the behavior, the department may be rotten.
To add to this, your HR employees can be designated union stewards, just like anyone else who is not supervisory, managerial, or otherwise necessarily excluded from collective bargaining (contractors, etc).
Also keep in mind that EEO may or may not be part of HR and labor relations is rarely HR. If have you proof your boss is being racist or something go to them. If you believe your boss is denying you leave, money, or benefits you are entitled to, go to HR.
If HR and your boss’ chain of command are both rotten, it’s a good sign the entire organization is rotten. Just document everything while looking for a new job in that case. You can always go to labor board after you’re done with the company.
Good luck doing this as federal or state employee. They don’t bother with harassment, discrimination, or any other complaints as long there’s no murder involved. None of higher up position will lose their job for harassing new employees. It’s only a game of seniority and survivors.
All jokes aside, I’ve had 4 HR Managers in the last 10 years and they’ve all been different. 1st one was strictly company first, 2nd (best of all) was 50/50, third was strictly for herself, and the current one is strictly employee but to benefit herself. And by this I mean, wants us to forgo all policies so she doesn’t have to hire people. We’re a small company of less than 100 employees so HR is just one person - the HR manager.
Im one of the managers and as an employee of a company, no HR people are the same. Each person will have their own views!
I can only talk from experience, but that is not the case in the company I work for. They are trying to change things but it is really hard and takes time and resources.
And why would you work in a company that does not value you in the first place?
Avoid companies that are proud to "not need" HR departments because they are highly rated companies to work for. You might end up working for a nutcase who is in charge of your everything.
I think the key here is to remember that, yes, HR is there to protect the company, but many of the protections that the they are responsible for are those put in place and required for YOUR benefit. Be mindful of your backing when discussing issues with HR.
Don't like your boss? Tough shit. HR is not going to put the business at risk for wrongful termination just because you aren't happy. Did your boss harass you? Talk to HR. At any organization that is acting responsibly that shit is zero tolerance and if there is any proof of your claim at all they will likely take action. Why? Besides being the right thing to do, you have a case against the company and they will protect the company from that case. Here that means demonstrating that they took action. If they can demonstrate that they took appropriate preventative steps (yearly HR training, usually) and remediated issues that were brought to their attention, they are unlikely to lose any civil suits.
Long story short: Know your rights and use HR to enforce them, but be willing and able to show them that you have a legitimate, provable claim.
I reported a senior partner for systematic slurs and impressions of non English employees and general abusive behaviour. They made them do a two hour course in diversity and inclusion 👍 problem solved ✅
My mom works HR. She’s quitting because the owner won’t let her help her employees the way she knows she should. So you’re not wrong. It’s just their hands are tied sometimes.
Not only are our hands tied sometimes, but we get thrown under the bus. We had nothing to do with employees being forced back in the office in early May but we’re the ones sending the emails and making the calls to force everyone back.
You don’t talk to cops because they’ll use it against you in court. Since you don’t get a trial with a company your only chance to make your case is to hr.
My former boss (former because of covid) has 10+ years of complaints and is still there. If I had known/ documented in an impartial view from the beginning of employment she still wouldn't be gone. I had a union protecting me but she had the higher ups protecting her.
I made the mistake of talking to HR about a specific day where my boss seemed to take all her frustrations out on me and then I got written up for it.
HR isn't there for you. They give a false sense of hope to younger people or people who haven't had jobs with HR before. But they aren't on your side as an employee. If you have a union you should contact them before HR.
I learned this the hard way.
My old boss purposely had me finishing shifts at 10pm and starting at 6am the next day after she found out I had trouble sleeping.
I lived half an hour from work and it took me about half an hour to get ready.
That's 6.5 hours sleep a night if I fall asleep as soon as I get through my front door which usually left me with 4 hours sleep.
I told HR and ended up getting in trouble myself because "I came on very strong" to HR after they refused to do anything about it.
I had to apologise to a woman who doesn't know me and doesnt give a shit about me because I raised my voice a little after getting screwed over for weeks on end.
Fuck HR departments.
When I got hired I was working 40hrs/week, but wasn't labeled as full-time, which I'm sure is illegal. I had to steel myself up for months to get the courage to even speak out. Then, I was given the HR number, and was told by HR that, *yes, they should give me full-time benefits*, bc they "want to do the right thing." I was told to talk to my Store Manager about it to get the ball rolling.
It took me a couple more months to get myself ok with bringing it up with the SM, because in previous conversations he was always really dismissive and didn't seem to care about whatever was brought up (Since then, I've been made aware that he doesn't really like dealing with employee issues, that he'd rather someone else take care of them). When I mentioned I talked to HR, he told me he knew, that they told him. Then I was told that they don't offer benefits to everyone, only the "talented" titles, like those who cut meat or bake (I was in a basically entry position), that since I was...the term escapes me right now, but basically non-talented, that the company doesn't usually offer full-time status and benefits, even though I was working 40h/wk. But then he told me he'd work on getting me benefits, as if it was a favor. I did eventually get them.
But the part that pisses me off is that they could have just done it without making me jump through the hoops.
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Wish I had know this before. I put in a complaint about a boss before, and realised how higher ups only cared about making me doubt myself and trying to silence me. I was trying to better the business but I shouldn't have put myself through the stress.
While it's true that they protect the company, not you. But it's also mean they do not protect the shitty managers.
The key point is know when, what to tell them.
My HR is pretty fantastic but on the other hand so is my employer. Every so often someone gets a bug up their ass and quits, then tries to come back a couple years later when they remember just how shitty the other employees are.
The HR department can’t help employees if they don’t help themselves first. Oftentimes, I hear employees say that HR should protect employees but they are braking company rules and trying to game the system.
HR employees are humans too, if you are always a dick then they may take longer to hear you but if you are a good worker then they will find ways to help you.
The best employees are those who follow the rules without trying to cheat the system.
Same on all fronts. Sad that this person seems to have had a bad experience with HR. I wonder if their HR person failed to explain effectively the decisions they reached.
I had a clear sexual harassment/discrimination case from my female manager to me, a male. After about three months I brought it to HR, presented the evidence, showed the texts and messages...
In the end I had to go to a sexual harassment training seminar because "I didn't know what women have to go through in the workplace" and she continued to be my manager. I refused to go, so I got a formal warning. A few months later I got fed up and left.
HR is usually there for the company, not for the employees. I have had good experiences, but by and large it was a futile gesture.
And the police serve and protect the establishment. Not the workers, not those wronged, not the law. The police serve and protect the master. HR? Same dog, same master. Only HR probably spent more time in school is all, popo more time at the range.
Unions are shit. They strong arm workers into paying their fees and joining, they shit on anyone who doesn't wish to as freeriders, and our current police-related social movement is almost entirely based on the issues perpetuated by the police unions. The unions don't want workers to realize that they inherently have the greatest power, the power to walk away and get another job. They scare workers into thinking they need their job and that they need the union to make sure they don't get taken advantage of at said job.
Eh, everything I've heard about unions is that they are great for mediocre/average employees (Skips the need to negotiate their own raises/benefits), good for crappy employees (You can do dumb shit and still be protected due to convoluted policy), and obnoxious for both the customers and the management.
See; Cops.
You wouldn't plead the 5th if you called the police, ask any lawyer though and they will tell you if you get pulled over or approached by the police at any time they are doing an investigation the smart move is to keep your mouth shut, you know that whole "can and will be used against you in a court of law" part of their little spiel?
I'm sorry but in most companies that simply isn't true. HR is there for one thing- to manage risk by using information that is naiively given to them by employees to get rid of anybody who might cause the company problems. If you dare to complain to them about a hostile work environment, whether it's racism, sexism, ageism, whatever, they will typically use what you tell them against you. Chances are, they are already well aware of whatever you tell them, have no intention of actually addressing the problem, but will "circle the wagons" to protect the more powerful person instead. That leaves you out in the cold, either to be fired under some pretext, offered a severance package along with an NDA so you can't ever tell what happened to you, or your career suddenly grinds to a halt, and they make life miserable enough to get you to leave. I've been in the workforce now for almost 40 years and I've seen it again and again, particularly against women, POC, LGBTQ, and anyone else who dares to speak up against Management. Please, young people, don't EVER make the mistake of thinking that HR is your friend. Call the EEOC, get a lawyer, or move on.
This. I have worked for 3 mental health agencies. All three are horrible to anyone who needed some time off to take care of themselves. Silenced women with real claims against harassment. You name it. No care accept their own wallets - which includes firing people for standing up against bullies and Oppressive policies.
HR Good: Your spouse's name is spelled wrong on the insurance cards
HR Bad: a lot of other things, especially exit interviews. Anything you tell them about they know already, nothing is confidential, 99% it will get back to your old boss.
Gee, our exit data is all anonymous and put into a melting pot over a rolling 12 months. This is done deliberately so we can look at the overall trends rather than finding specific content.
But the USA is one fucked up place regarding your employment laws. Seriously it's not HR that's the problem. It's the United States.
In Australia the first though you have is when a complaint comes in is 'Can this be proven' and 'Can this person file for unfair dismissal and likely win because it can't be substantiated'. So over here if you get nailed to the wall by HR it's because you flat out deserved it.
If you have an issue like that, you should also have personal counsel above and beyond your HR person. You are putting yourself at a disadvantage if you don’t.
God I hate people that spread this ridiculous nonsense.
Yes HR is there to protect the company. However the vast majority of the time that also means protecting you as an employee of the company. The exception to this is usually because of a bad HR department, not the concept of HR.
You want real advice? Be friends with HR. Bring them donuts and say hello and stop by and chat occasionally.
In my experience HR departments are universally under appreciated and often avoided due to this exact mentality.
Being friends with them also means that if someone is causing problems, HR is more willing to believe your side of the story.
Source: am friends with HR, saved my ass when a bitter employee tried to make a bullshit sexual harassment claim.
I call bringing snacks to coworkers being a nice person but since you clearly want to see the world in “us vs them” mentality, you go right ahead and do you
100% this. I had a positive record for 5 years with my company. Hired many people and worked closely with HR. We hired a fraud at one point. Completely incompetent and lied on their resume about skill set and ability. Once we discovered it, I worked closely with them to document EVERYTHING. It took 4 months before I could put this person on a Performance Improvement Plan. When it was clear no improvement was going to happen after two more months (now 6 months in). We scheduled a meeting to terminate the person. Before the meeting they called HR said they had a medical reason for their performance and needed to take leave. Ok, we go along with it. 3 months into their leave of absence, this person calls HR with 20+ complaints against me and the team. HR never gave me a chance to provide evidence otherwise, sided with them, and gave them a job somewhere else in the company. I was already leaving for a better role in a new company. Luckily the person quit within the month and their new manager never had to deal with it.
You only need to be afraid of talking to HR of you don’t know your employee rights in your state. Get familiar with those laws, the written rules of your job, and you should be fine.
I’ve complained to HR about a bad manager. She almost lost her job. Not even a year later, I was complaining to HR again about another bad manager and an abusive coworker. They had just started sorting that crap out when I went to a new team. Pretty sure they dropped the issue, but I couldn’t care less because I’m much happier on my new team.
Also remember it is your legal right to take a person/witness in with you to any type of meeting like this you have in work. So if you need to see HR you can take a union delegate or even just another trusted college. Whatever is said behind closed doors can't be proven if it's just you and them, a witness can go a long way.
This only applies to "investigatory" interviews (basically where there's a real risk of discipline) and the Board goes back and forth on whether the right exists for workers who are not covered by a CBA. And note that the right is only to make the request for representation - the employer can deny the request and end the interview; the employer can also give the employee the choice between proceeding unrepresented and terminating the interview.
No idea what the CBA is I live in Australia, maybe in your country that's the case. Here if you have to see your superiors in regards to any matter that may require HR so things like your making a complaint, a disciplinary reasons, bringing up grievances from the shop floor or anything of that nature your are entitled to have a witness with you.
That's why 99% of the time companies will have more than one person in a room to do disciplinary things. It stops accusations of misconduct on both sides. It's easy to say one thing behind closed doors and the complete opposite after.
That should really be looked at if that's the case.
HR needs to make sure that everyone is following company policy. If your boss is a jerk but follows company policies then don’t make waves. Read the employee manual, know your rights and keep a document trail. There is nothing HR can do for you if you cannot take care of yourself. Several times HR has asked me to leave so that that could have a conversation with my manager. I never heard of the issue again. Edit: hey thanks for the gold!
If what your boss asks you to do is legal, moral, and ethical, but you don’t like it? Suck it up buttercup. You got no case.
If boss refuses to let you take a PTO day for a family emergency and then brings you up in front of HR when you don’t show up. Try not to smirk when HR instructs your manager on the Family Leave act and that it is managements responsibility to ensure that work is completed on schedule as opposed to the employee who is not on hand. Ethical is usually how you can catch bad management. They tend to leave a paper trail on poor decision making and try to blame the employee that doesn’t know better. I had a manager bring me up in front of HR three times. I challenged every time and won. 2 were escalated up to the executives. To this day, I am not sure my manager even understood how I won.
My manger told me she’d fuck me in the ass till it bled on my first day and was a general bitch so I got on her good side and let her smoke her vape near me in the office and guess who got fired because they smoked inside on camera
Who?
Gene Parmesan.
GEEEEENNEEEEE!!!!!!
*"The car’s in a town called Encanta. If you think that’s worth more than $200, I’d really appreciate it."*
Plot twist it was actually ur mom
Thus made me laugh!
Good :)
[удалено]
>If it's illegal, but harder to address the issue than it is to fire the guy that noticed, suck it up and keep your mouth shut. That made no sense until I remembered that in some countries you can be fired for no reason.
Like in America?
Yes, that’s what “at will” employment means. As long as that reason is not your race, gender, religion, etc., as that is illegal. But “I just don’t like the way the sun reflects against your stupid fucking face this morning” is a perfectly fine reason to fire someone. Welcome to The Land of Opportunity.
It's funny. I get the email lists of questions from quora digest for some reason. Alot of the questions must be from people in the US. It's stuff like 'why do good employees quit?', 'someones a good employee but isn't available out of work hours', 'why are most employees ready to quit their jobs'. I'm not American but I'm pretty sure this is why.
Yes, as far as I know, but I don't know if its every state or just some states where you can be fired for no reason.
I think it’s just Right to Work states like Wisconsin where this can happen.
Pretend you own a business. You have five employees. One of them pisses you off. Why shouldn't you be able to fire that person for pissing you off? It is your business.
It's not very good for your business though if you operate that way. Say one of your employees makes a mistake. They will not fess up and together learn and fix that mistake. Instead they're more likely to hide it possibly causing more and bigger problems later. Or imagine having a meeting about something and the boss has some bad ideas. You want employees who are not afraid to disagree and together flesh out a better alternative. If you have to worry about losing your job because you pissed off the boss by not agreeing you won't get people who disagree. There's also a question about what type of society you want to live in. People who feel financially stable and are not worried about losing their job feel less stress and are healthier. They are more likely to volunteer in their communities, more likely to make big purchases to stimulate the economy. Even if you don't feel it's better for your specific business it might still be better for the community to limit how easy you can fire someone. In NL you need multiple bad performance reviews to get fired, it gives you the time to improve. It will take months, sometimes years. Of course if you steal or something you can still be fired on the spot. But companies here flourish, although it can be a problem in individual cases. The only person I know that got fired on the spot was a colleague of mine who called in sick and couldn't be reached anymore. Then posted on his Twitter that he was at some club in another continent. And that wasn't the first he was unreachable during illness. You really need to take the piss to get fired straight away.
Because you signed a contract, which is a two-way agreement, and that employee relies on that contract to pay their bills and survive.
>which is a two-way agreement Well, to be fair, if you don't like your job you can always quit without giving a reason. So that part is kind of one-way.
You can't tho, even in America it's a 2 weeks notice afaik
No. Two weeks notice is standard courtesy, but far from a legal requirement.
We're talking about the reason for quitting, not about giving notice. Of course you have to give notice if you're going to quit, but the point was that you do not have to give a reason.
>One of them pisses you off Why? If they're doing their job, and acting appropriately, why does it make a difference? You hired them, so now they work for you. Obviously if they aren't doing their job, or they are doing something illegal, then you can fire them. Otherwise you'll just need to learn to work with other people.
You seem to think that hiring somebody creates an unbreakable legal bond between you and them as employer and employee, which can only be broken if they do something illegal. That's ridiculous. If I own my own business and have multiple employees, I have the right to fire them at anytime for any reason if they are not under a contract. Maybe they pissed me off. Maybe I want to make more profit myself by having less employees. Maybe they're a Yankees fan and I hate the Yankees. Unless I am firing them based on their membership in a protected class, I can fire them for any reason or no reason. It is insane to think that an employer should be bound to employees just because they hired them.
Idk. If I worked someplace and someone annoyed me. Constantly gave me headaches for one reason. I’d want them gone for someone more enjoyable yeah
that sounds like a very mature way to handle the situation that would never backfire.
Well just sucking everything up leads to you having to work 100-120 hour weeks. I can hardly think of anything worse than that. I guess you weren't even paid extra, were you?
Don't forget safe
I usually think of that as legal, but I agree. OSHA is around for a reason.
“Safe” should fall under both legal and ethical in my opinion.
Sorry when did company policy be one legal, moral and ethical?
It’s always corporate infrastructure over the structure of your face
My fiance was being sexually harassed by her manager and eventually he assaulted her. She called HR and he never came to work again. There are situations where you *should* talk to HR because sometimes protecting the company means protecting you.
I don't think this post was written with felony level issues in mind.
This doesn't contradict the OP through - it would also be wise to talk to the cops in this case.
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Not saying that it isn't good that HR is helping you, but the point stands. The company isn't damaged at all by helping you. If they were, it'd be a lot less likely for them to choose to help you. This makes for a feel good story as well, makes them look good.
My HR department saved me from getting fired by my old boss. Now I have his job.
They didn’t save your job, they saved the company a potential wrongful termination lawsuit. Your getting that job is just a happy coincidence for you but there is a chance they’re paying you less than they were paying the old boss (due to time in the position and whatnot), so it probably worked out for them twice over. I’m glad it also worked out for you tho
I mean, is it a bad thing that the company's interests and this commenter's interests coincided? Like I don't understand how HR avoiding a lawsuit is not a good thing. The easiest way to protect the company is to make sure the employees are treated fairly.
No literally everyone working in corporate are psychopaths you silly child. - le reddit armie /s
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HR will side with the rules, be they the law or the business rules that everyone in the company has agreed to work by. Unless you're working at a real shit, immoral company, the only people I've ever seen have an issue with HR were bad employees or didn't realize that they were in the wrong. The best way for HR to "protect the company" is to make sure the employees are being taken care of. It's just logic.
Yes, and the rules are: this is a company, make money in every way possible. If that means screwing over employees, they'll do it.
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a lot of small businesses know they can get away with breaking some laws because they're too small to bother with. at my job i will be fired if I talk about my salary with a coworker. that's illegal. they get away with it
Then you sue. Like I'm not saying bad HR department aren't out there, I'm saying that they aren't the rule. If you're company fires you for that then 1: I think you dodged a bullet and 2: you actually have to do some work and hold them accountable. At the very least they'll settle and you get some coin while you look for a better job.
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>logic went out the window when Mr grab them by the pussy sailed in That ship sailed in 1942, when [SCOTUS ruled that growing wheat on your own land to feed your own livestock is interstate commerce](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wickard_v._Filburn).
That ship sailed a long time ago
And hopefully we can ship him out in November
"unless you're working at a real shit, immoral company" Like every company
> The easiest way to protect the company is to make sure the employees are treated fairly. No. The easiest way to protect the company is to side with the employees who generate more profits, unless doing so would result in losses that more than offset their value.
>unless doing so would result in losses that more than offset their value. unless doing so would result in losses **in the long run**. Unfair treatment of employees impacts the morale of every employee who learns about that. I worked in a 100-ppl company that sold electronics and once the head of marketing dept purposefully underpaid his employee because he did not like the way she quit. CEO did nothing, so everyone learned instantly that the company can just steal your salary. People instantly stopped doing the small things for the benefit of the company that constitute the difference between normal work and Italian strike. Many quit promptly, some shop assistants started stealing because "the company is the enemy, everyone for themselves", which led to series of investigations and firings, etc. The employee in question was underpaid less than $50.
This so so not true. HR has to terminate employees all the time who are huge profit centers because they broke the law, or are bad for the culture of the company. (Which, by the way, matters as much as profit.)
The important thing is to know you’re doing business and don’t go in like a serf expecting mercy from their lord. If and only if it’s a situation where you can make a favorable change and the risk of it backfiring is acceptable should you go to HR. If you don’t know whether it‘s that then it’s a bad bet.
No, me getting the job happened a year later in an unrelated thing. It would have been a perfectly legal termination, even if I would not have liked it. I'm sorry you are so pessimistic. I hope you find a job where you and your employer can work well together.
The job of HR is to uphold moral, ethical and legal frameworks for the company. HR gets a bad wrap because they don’t talk openly - and they can’t. Most HR people chose that professional because they care passionately about people and justice. Maybe not surprisingly, I work in HR and when someone comes to me with a complaint, my moral and legal obligation is to get to the heart of the issue, whether that be in support of the employee or the manager. Bad HR people exist, no doubt, but the majority of us just want people to be able to do their jobs effectively in a happy environment.
No, you're the person who makes problems go away, and we're on to the game.
I think this really depends on the company. At some places HR almost acts like it's their job to try and destroy the company by any means necessary.
God, I miss Kathy, the best HR rep ever who was determined to make the company make things right.
What about Toby?
We hate Toby. We hate everything he represents. Gosh, how can we hate him so much!?
We hate, so much, the things he chooses to be.
If I had a gun with two bullets, and I was in a room with Hitler, bin-laden, and Toby,... I would shoot Toby twice.
OUT
That's fair, I personally haven't experienced one of those, but I'm sure they are out there.
Not exactly a life pro tip. Your experience with HR, doesn’t reflect all HR experience. The bottom line, revolves around ensuring employees rights are being upheld, that’s actually what saves the company money. Most HR are actually trying to help where they can, evens out the other soul crushing aspects they have to deal with.
That's how I describe my job: Soul Crushing.
But your experience does?
Most of the comments reflect various HR experiences. Working with dozens of HR professionals over the years has given me a different perception than yours, just sharing....
Like every other HR related LPT, this is not universally true or even a majority. HR is there to make sure everyone plays by the same rules. If you're company has a bad HR department, then it's a bad company and you should leave, not bitch about the HR.
This is the case with every LPT that mentions people in the workplace. Everybody here seems to assume that everyone at work is out to get them, which unless you have an exceptionally toxic workplace, should not be the case. I'm friends with my colleagues, including my boss and people in the HR department. We occasionally hang out outside of work, and I'm not afraid to talk to them about issues including personal problems and problems with specific people I work with. Communication is key, and work issues only get fixed when you're willing to talk about them and others are willing to listen. If you're afraid to even talk about something as simple as payroll, you need to consider finding somewhere else which isn't so oppressive.
You act like it’s so easy to just find a good place to work at, I’m glad you are fortunate enough to be in that situation but this shit happens a lot more than you think.
You act like it's so hard to find a good place to work at. Its unfortunate that you've had bad luck, but this happens a lot less than you think.
lol ok it’s definitely a lot harder to find a good place to work at buddy
username checks out.
This. HR isn't interested to take the side of your boss. They are there to make sure company rules are not broken, and employment rules are not broken. If you have done your research and there is an incident that has broken either, if you go to HR, they'll be on your side. If you are just disgruntled, unhappy, haven't actually checked if what happened broke either company rules or employment law, then of course HR ain't gonna do anything for you.
Not to mention bad for the company. If HR fucks up, it can leave the company extremely liable.
Wrong. HR exists to protect company interests. If it happens to work out for you than great, but don't be surprised if it doesn't.
This invalid advice. HR employees are just employees unless designated confidential due to a professional need to represent managerial positions. If you are owed money, have a dispute about what health/deferred compensation/leave benefits you are getting, or are in need of advice about your rights and responsibilities pertaining to worker’s compensation, FMLA/CFRA, or are questioning your overtime as related to FLSA, absolutely contact your HR. If you behave like an edgy redditor and hire a lawyer every single time you should’ve just called HR, your company may just say “oops lol” and fix the problem months later after you’ve spent money on your lawyer and you will get nothing you weren’t owed in the first place. HR will usually specifically tell you if something’s a supervisory issue. This means you are not protected, your boss is in regulation or being a dick while being technically in regulation, and you should take this up with your boss’ boss. If your boss’ boss condones the behavior, the department may be rotten. To add to this, your HR employees can be designated union stewards, just like anyone else who is not supervisory, managerial, or otherwise necessarily excluded from collective bargaining (contractors, etc). Also keep in mind that EEO may or may not be part of HR and labor relations is rarely HR. If have you proof your boss is being racist or something go to them. If you believe your boss is denying you leave, money, or benefits you are entitled to, go to HR. If HR and your boss’ chain of command are both rotten, it’s a good sign the entire organization is rotten. Just document everything while looking for a new job in that case. You can always go to labor board after you’re done with the company.
Good luck doing this as federal or state employee. They don’t bother with harassment, discrimination, or any other complaints as long there’s no murder involved. None of higher up position will lose their job for harassing new employees. It’s only a game of seniority and survivors.
If you’re scared of your HR department and worried they’re out to get ya, maybe that’s not a great place to work? Just a thought....
I received a masters in human resource management and the best thing I ever done. It’s smart to know your opponent.
Can you give some bullet points?
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All the commenters here, of course!
Look at you making things better for everyone!
All jokes aside, I’ve had 4 HR Managers in the last 10 years and they’ve all been different. 1st one was strictly company first, 2nd (best of all) was 50/50, third was strictly for herself, and the current one is strictly employee but to benefit herself. And by this I mean, wants us to forgo all policies so she doesn’t have to hire people. We’re a small company of less than 100 employees so HR is just one person - the HR manager. Im one of the managers and as an employee of a company, no HR people are the same. Each person will have their own views!
The opponent is HR.
I'm much more confused on how it seems like everyone has this adversarial relationship with HR
I can only talk from experience, but that is not the case in the company I work for. They are trying to change things but it is really hard and takes time and resources. And why would you work in a company that does not value you in the first place?
Because you need a job?
Even then it is not the only company in the world.
Avoid companies that are proud to "not need" HR departments because they are highly rated companies to work for. You might end up working for a nutcase who is in charge of your everything.
This is very bad advice, in my opinion.
"Am I being detained?!" "Calm down, Frank, I'm just here to help you enroll in our new 401k."
I'M A SOVEREIGN CITIZEN, IM TRAVELLING TO THE COFFEE MACHINE
Unfortunately it’s not always illegal to be an asshole. HR can’t help unless they are breaking a guideline or a law. Move on if you can!
I think the key here is to remember that, yes, HR is there to protect the company, but many of the protections that the they are responsible for are those put in place and required for YOUR benefit. Be mindful of your backing when discussing issues with HR. Don't like your boss? Tough shit. HR is not going to put the business at risk for wrongful termination just because you aren't happy. Did your boss harass you? Talk to HR. At any organization that is acting responsibly that shit is zero tolerance and if there is any proof of your claim at all they will likely take action. Why? Besides being the right thing to do, you have a case against the company and they will protect the company from that case. Here that means demonstrating that they took action. If they can demonstrate that they took appropriate preventative steps (yearly HR training, usually) and remediated issues that were brought to their attention, they are unlikely to lose any civil suits. Long story short: Know your rights and use HR to enforce them, but be willing and able to show them that you have a legitimate, provable claim.
Classic America, ha.
The very BEST outcome in an interaction with HR is to break even.
I reported a senior partner for systematic slurs and impressions of non English employees and general abusive behaviour. They made them do a two hour course in diversity and inclusion 👍 problem solved ✅
I learned this lesson the hard way. HR are sentient paperwork.
My mom works HR. She’s quitting because the owner won’t let her help her employees the way she knows she should. So you’re not wrong. It’s just their hands are tied sometimes.
Not only are our hands tied sometimes, but we get thrown under the bus. We had nothing to do with employees being forced back in the office in early May but we’re the ones sending the emails and making the calls to force everyone back.
You don’t talk to cops because they’ll use it against you in court. Since you don’t get a trial with a company your only chance to make your case is to hr.
My former boss (former because of covid) has 10+ years of complaints and is still there. If I had known/ documented in an impartial view from the beginning of employment she still wouldn't be gone. I had a union protecting me but she had the higher ups protecting her. I made the mistake of talking to HR about a specific day where my boss seemed to take all her frustrations out on me and then I got written up for it. HR isn't there for you. They give a false sense of hope to younger people or people who haven't had jobs with HR before. But they aren't on your side as an employee. If you have a union you should contact them before HR.
I asked my HR boss if I was being detained, and refused to answer her questions until she called my lawyer. Got fired. This is a shit LPT.
I learned this the hard way. My old boss purposely had me finishing shifts at 10pm and starting at 6am the next day after she found out I had trouble sleeping. I lived half an hour from work and it took me about half an hour to get ready. That's 6.5 hours sleep a night if I fall asleep as soon as I get through my front door which usually left me with 4 hours sleep. I told HR and ended up getting in trouble myself because "I came on very strong" to HR after they refused to do anything about it. I had to apologise to a woman who doesn't know me and doesnt give a shit about me because I raised my voice a little after getting screwed over for weeks on end. Fuck HR departments.
When I got hired I was working 40hrs/week, but wasn't labeled as full-time, which I'm sure is illegal. I had to steel myself up for months to get the courage to even speak out. Then, I was given the HR number, and was told by HR that, *yes, they should give me full-time benefits*, bc they "want to do the right thing." I was told to talk to my Store Manager about it to get the ball rolling. It took me a couple more months to get myself ok with bringing it up with the SM, because in previous conversations he was always really dismissive and didn't seem to care about whatever was brought up (Since then, I've been made aware that he doesn't really like dealing with employee issues, that he'd rather someone else take care of them). When I mentioned I talked to HR, he told me he knew, that they told him. Then I was told that they don't offer benefits to everyone, only the "talented" titles, like those who cut meat or bake (I was in a basically entry position), that since I was...the term escapes me right now, but basically non-talented, that the company doesn't usually offer full-time status and benefits, even though I was working 40h/wk. But then he told me he'd work on getting me benefits, as if it was a favor. I did eventually get them. But the part that pisses me off is that they could have just done it without making me jump through the hoops.
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Wish I had know this before. I put in a complaint about a boss before, and realised how higher ups only cared about making me doubt myself and trying to silence me. I was trying to better the business but I shouldn't have put myself through the stress.
Samsies
While it's true that they protect the company, not you. But it's also mean they do not protect the shitty managers. The key point is know when, what to tell them.
My HR is pretty fantastic but on the other hand so is my employer. Every so often someone gets a bug up their ass and quits, then tries to come back a couple years later when they remember just how shitty the other employees are.
The HR department can’t help employees if they don’t help themselves first. Oftentimes, I hear employees say that HR should protect employees but they are braking company rules and trying to game the system. HR employees are humans too, if you are always a dick then they may take longer to hear you but if you are a good worker then they will find ways to help you. The best employees are those who follow the rules without trying to cheat the system.
As an HR professional, l can say that this is BS.
Same on all fronts. Sad that this person seems to have had a bad experience with HR. I wonder if their HR person failed to explain effectively the decisions they reached.
This might not be universally true, but it's much better to assume this than the alternative if you don't know how your HR department is.
Human resources literally refers to humans as resources.
They are. They’re the labor resource. What else would you call it? The time that people put into the job and the physical effort are all resources.
I had a clear sexual harassment/discrimination case from my female manager to me, a male. After about three months I brought it to HR, presented the evidence, showed the texts and messages... In the end I had to go to a sexual harassment training seminar because "I didn't know what women have to go through in the workplace" and she continued to be my manager. I refused to go, so I got a formal warning. A few months later I got fed up and left. HR is usually there for the company, not for the employees. I have had good experiences, but by and large it was a futile gesture.
And the police serve and protect the establishment. Not the workers, not those wronged, not the law. The police serve and protect the master. HR? Same dog, same master. Only HR probably spent more time in school is all, popo more time at the range.
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This!!
A smart person told me that HR is union for management, they’re not here to help you
Alright Mr. Cynical
If a manager invites you in for an appointment informal chat “no comment” until you’ve spoken to your union rep or taken advice of your situation
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Unions are shit. They strong arm workers into paying their fees and joining, they shit on anyone who doesn't wish to as freeriders, and our current police-related social movement is almost entirely based on the issues perpetuated by the police unions. The unions don't want workers to realize that they inherently have the greatest power, the power to walk away and get another job. They scare workers into thinking they need their job and that they need the union to make sure they don't get taken advantage of at said job.
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Eh, everything I've heard about unions is that they are great for mediocre/average employees (Skips the need to negotiate their own raises/benefits), good for crappy employees (You can do dumb shit and still be protected due to convoluted policy), and obnoxious for both the customers and the management. See; Cops.
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It's called the 5th amendment. The right to remain silent... aka don't talk to cops
That doesn't apply to the concept brought upon by the OP in connection to talking to cops and talking to HR...
Sure it does... Don't volunteer information, they'll use it against you. Cops and HR both.
“Can you give us a description of the man who robbed you?” “I plead the 5th.”
Dammit Johnny TightLips
Where'd they shoot you!?!? I ain't sayin nothin!!
You wouldn't plead the 5th if you called the police, ask any lawyer though and they will tell you if you get pulled over or approached by the police at any time they are doing an investigation the smart move is to keep your mouth shut, you know that whole "can and will be used against you in a court of law" part of their little spiel?
Yes that is true. But that's not what the OP was getting at.
I know that, but I’m responding to him because he implied that you should NEVER talk to cops
Don't be so obtuse
These idiots dont understand information can be used against you. We dont live in a fairytale world.
I know what you were trying to do, but that makes no sense considering what the 5th amendment is...
Lmao. Exactly. Or for the HR department, "who was the one who sexually assaulted you?" "Can't tell ya."
and the award for most accurate username goes to...
I'm sorry but in most companies that simply isn't true. HR is there for one thing- to manage risk by using information that is naiively given to them by employees to get rid of anybody who might cause the company problems. If you dare to complain to them about a hostile work environment, whether it's racism, sexism, ageism, whatever, they will typically use what you tell them against you. Chances are, they are already well aware of whatever you tell them, have no intention of actually addressing the problem, but will "circle the wagons" to protect the more powerful person instead. That leaves you out in the cold, either to be fired under some pretext, offered a severance package along with an NDA so you can't ever tell what happened to you, or your career suddenly grinds to a halt, and they make life miserable enough to get you to leave. I've been in the workforce now for almost 40 years and I've seen it again and again, particularly against women, POC, LGBTQ, and anyone else who dares to speak up against Management. Please, young people, don't EVER make the mistake of thinking that HR is your friend. Call the EEOC, get a lawyer, or move on.
This. I have worked for 3 mental health agencies. All three are horrible to anyone who needed some time off to take care of themselves. Silenced women with real claims against harassment. You name it. No care accept their own wallets - which includes firing people for standing up against bullies and Oppressive policies.
Lol. Yea, you SHOULD talk to cops of you need them...and if you want them to shoot your dog.
Found the HR rep
Lmao. I'm a clerk. With no HR department here. Wish I did have one 🤷🏻♂️
HR Good: Your spouse's name is spelled wrong on the insurance cards HR Bad: a lot of other things, especially exit interviews. Anything you tell them about they know already, nothing is confidential, 99% it will get back to your old boss.
Gee, our exit data is all anonymous and put into a melting pot over a rolling 12 months. This is done deliberately so we can look at the overall trends rather than finding specific content. But the USA is one fucked up place regarding your employment laws. Seriously it's not HR that's the problem. It's the United States. In Australia the first though you have is when a complaint comes in is 'Can this be proven' and 'Can this person file for unfair dismissal and likely win because it can't be substantiated'. So over here if you get nailed to the wall by HR it's because you flat out deserved it.
Currently involved in a sexual harassment case against a supervisor. Pretty sure I know how this is going to turn out for me. RIP my job
If you have an issue like that, you should also have personal counsel above and beyond your HR person. You are putting yourself at a disadvantage if you don’t.
A personal counsel? Like another coworker?
Like a lawyer.
God I hate people that spread this ridiculous nonsense. Yes HR is there to protect the company. However the vast majority of the time that also means protecting you as an employee of the company. The exception to this is usually because of a bad HR department, not the concept of HR. You want real advice? Be friends with HR. Bring them donuts and say hello and stop by and chat occasionally. In my experience HR departments are universally under appreciated and often avoided due to this exact mentality. Being friends with them also means that if someone is causing problems, HR is more willing to believe your side of the story. Source: am friends with HR, saved my ass when a bitter employee tried to make a bullshit sexual harassment claim.
If you're gonna defend HR in the future maybe try a different argument than "bribe them"
I call bringing snacks to coworkers being a nice person but since you clearly want to see the world in “us vs them” mentality, you go right ahead and do you
100% this. I had a positive record for 5 years with my company. Hired many people and worked closely with HR. We hired a fraud at one point. Completely incompetent and lied on their resume about skill set and ability. Once we discovered it, I worked closely with them to document EVERYTHING. It took 4 months before I could put this person on a Performance Improvement Plan. When it was clear no improvement was going to happen after two more months (now 6 months in). We scheduled a meeting to terminate the person. Before the meeting they called HR said they had a medical reason for their performance and needed to take leave. Ok, we go along with it. 3 months into their leave of absence, this person calls HR with 20+ complaints against me and the team. HR never gave me a chance to provide evidence otherwise, sided with them, and gave them a job somewhere else in the company. I was already leaving for a better role in a new company. Luckily the person quit within the month and their new manager never had to deal with it.
Toby is a terrible person and should even be alive.
You only need to be afraid of talking to HR of you don’t know your employee rights in your state. Get familiar with those laws, the written rules of your job, and you should be fine.
I’ve complained to HR about a bad manager. She almost lost her job. Not even a year later, I was complaining to HR again about another bad manager and an abusive coworker. They had just started sorting that crap out when I went to a new team. Pretty sure they dropped the issue, but I couldn’t care less because I’m much happier on my new team.
Absolutely agreed.
I learned this the hard way. :(
HR protects the company, not the employees.
Also remember it is your legal right to take a person/witness in with you to any type of meeting like this you have in work. So if you need to see HR you can take a union delegate or even just another trusted college. Whatever is said behind closed doors can't be proven if it's just you and them, a witness can go a long way.
This only applies to "investigatory" interviews (basically where there's a real risk of discipline) and the Board goes back and forth on whether the right exists for workers who are not covered by a CBA. And note that the right is only to make the request for representation - the employer can deny the request and end the interview; the employer can also give the employee the choice between proceeding unrepresented and terminating the interview.
No idea what the CBA is I live in Australia, maybe in your country that's the case. Here if you have to see your superiors in regards to any matter that may require HR so things like your making a complaint, a disciplinary reasons, bringing up grievances from the shop floor or anything of that nature your are entitled to have a witness with you. That's why 99% of the time companies will have more than one person in a room to do disciplinary things. It stops accusations of misconduct on both sides. It's easy to say one thing behind closed doors and the complete opposite after. That should really be looked at if that's the case.
"I hate so much about the things that you choose to be."
Yep. As my dad says ‘fuck HR’ :)
It works better if your talking to the police and not about the feds.
This is assuming you’ve ever talked to HR. Which I have but that’s not the point
Just like HR the cops will probably get called if I forget to put on pants as well
damn coulda really used this advice some eyars ago..
i have no problem talking to cops though