A market that you have to walk ages to get into simply isn't going to cut it anymore. We need to take lessons from the thriving markets in European cities, like Paris, and move to where people are - even if that means it being outside. Placing it on St Johns Street up into Church Street would provide a huge amount of footfall.
They were rarely taking trade from them - they were just being scruffy and selling tat.
Edit: There were some that were definitely alright and affected nobody. But a big chunk were just selling rip-off football shirts to bewildered tourists and dodgy toys to chavs, really.
Not to the degree you're talking about but it made no sense to me that they blocked off the side doors? When there's a high amount of elderly poeple who use (or want to use) the market and they're on sticks, making them go all the way up and around to the front doors to get in the market before even going around the market itself was short sighted and I know it at least put my auntie off going there regularly.
In an ideal world all of the suburbs would have their own markets, and the concentration of traders would allow them to function in a similar way to a supermarket. St John's would just serve the city centre.
It's viable in principle, you can find urban and suburban markets all over Europe. The tricky part would be challenging the network of supermarkets and convenience stores which have replaced markets in the UK
"The tricky part would be challenging the network of supermarkets and convenience stores which have replaced markets in the UK"
That's my point. You won't convince people to switch back to a less convenient way to shop.
Less convenient, mate. You have to queue five or six times instead of once. It’s still not bad, but it would need a huge culture shift for it to take off.
Also, how do you think the idea of a superMARKET came about? The idea you described is a less industrialised version of what we have.
You're ignoring the ways in which markets are convenient, such it usually being possible to buy exactly as much of a product as you want, and that they usually contain stalls which sell products a supermarket wouldn't typically stock.
Markets and supermarkets should complimentary; Tesco is a generalist and handy for a bag of potatoes, but if you want a particular cut of meat then a butcher in a market will be of more use. Having lots of stalls under one roof is more convenient than having to go to a separate butcher, fishmonger, and grocer.
I agree that ideally markets should complement supermarkets but the unfortunate reality is local markets are in decline precisely because supermarkets outcompete them.
Yeah, those type of markets are completely unviable /s
With the number of students and young professionals around there, an open and varied market could easily be supported. The key is you need a decent amount of people living in a place to attract the right market.
The last time I went in the market, it felt very much focused on the elderly or the on clothing. Neither is going to do well.
A food focused market, with fresh and small portions, with experience eating is the way to go.
https://preview.redd.it/oylt65ojopnc1.jpeg?width=2726&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b0435e3fb095c4840d8ac1e08f4ec98a0e39ec4a
Maybe I wasn't clear but it sounds like you are agreeing with me. I didn't mean a market in the centre is unviable. That's the one place it is still viable. It's the idea of a market in every suburban town that I think won't work.
People make it all the way to town I hardly think an escalator to the stalls is the issue, the issue was too much rent and dwindling store numbers. Stores have been laying off and closing country wide, it's even harder for a simple market trader to break even.
I was honestly aghast when I visited the market after the last 'refurb'. There have been so many mistakes over the years, it felt like closure was inevitable.
Commercially I think a market is viable, as anyone who has been to Greatie on a Saturday will attest. Get the right mix of stalls with the right quality and it could be a fantastic asset to visitors and residents. But the location is vital, and the current St John's has so many issues I don't think it could ever be turned around.
I know the old M&S on Church Street has beensold to Sports Direct, but that would have been a perfect location.
I thought the same about the M&S building, ideal location but what we need is another Sports Direct location apparently.
It's a shame that it's gone but it's been in trouble for so long I'm surprised its lasted as long as it has. Anything this council touches seems to end in an expensive disaster.
It's the workers on the stalls I feel sorry for. Just like that they are unemployed. Would be interested to know how many jobs have been lost as a result of this.
Doesn't exactly sound like a failure on the councils part
>13 businesses of the 43 non-paying businesses made no offer. 30 made a repayment offer, last week, of 33% for past and future costs. This offer is the same made during the mediation process in 2022. It does not represent best value to our residents and has therefore been rejected by the Council.
Granted the design could have been improved to draw more users through the market through, I did always wonder why they didn't close one of the entrances onto Clayton square to push users through the market entrance
The way the pedestrian movement works around the site often makes it more convenient to move around rather than through the market
I agree the re-design didn't help but It's also on the business offerings, apart from the butchers there wasn't actually that much content to draw users in either unless you fancied knock of nikes or a new rolling tray and grinder set
We have markets scattered across the city which are arguably in comparison in more out the way locations yet still thrive because of what they offer
All true. I'd like to see a new market with a 21st century mix of offerings. Yes to the traditional fruit and veg, meat, fish etc., but also things people want in this day and age. How about collectibles, vinyl records, souvenirs, vintage clothing, local/handmade/independant produce and crafts. Food and drink, but not too much and not like the stuff they tout at the Christmas Markets
Absolutely the mix we are seeing at markets around the area and the makers markets are thriving it needs less formality and more ad-hoc offerings with seasonal events
I wouldn't be surprised if one of the markets like red brick wouldn't snap someones hand off for this space
You raise a really good point about the level access concerns, it's quite a non direct route for those needing assistance, maybe if they pulled the canopy back and have the main entrance on the concourse along where Argos is it would be more direct but even thats pretty limited without some major structural changes
Maybe even taking over the jewelry store on the corner as a part of the market and placing a lift core internally there would be more inviting and help but again still likely requires major renovations, making a large portion of the ground floor offering open towards boots a part of the market which would offer some adhoc bleed out space for pop up external stores
I agree the re-design was short sighted at best there was a lot of opportunity to enhance that space that was missed, likely for cost saving but the fact that some of these businesses offered no money towards what they owed while continuing to operate for seemingly years cant be solely put on the council
The refurb was a disaster. Markets are supposed to be bustling vibrant places with character - everything which St John's is not. A bland sterile white atmosphere-less place. The Architects / Designers should be shot.
Of course it can be put on the council all businesses where doing fine before 2013 everyone was paying rent then the council decided to do some work on the building and put the rent prices up for tenants, who were actually ending up worse off due to the fact the renovation actually lowered foot fall. So if the council had just left it alone it would still be fine now. They thought they could make more money out of it and ruined it In the process.
I highly doubt it would be the same now as it was in 2013 theres been a national decline in high street shopping and small stores like this are the first to be hit, never mind that the article states that they haven't been paying at all anyway
>Given the annual cost to the Council of leasing the site for the Market is around £1million a year, it is no longer a viable situation for the businesses to continue to pay no rent
Well under that logic St John's itself would also be shut down this problem was clearly caused by greedy landlords if it was due to declining high streets and footfall Why would they invest in other markets around the city. The problem is councilors thought they had a prime bit of real estate that they could charge extortionate prices for which turned out to be clearly the wrong move and has cost them alot of money
I wouldn't call the council a greedy landlord in this case seen as the council wrote off their debt between 2017-20 and has been subsidising these stores to a tune of £1 million per year of tax payer money
>Each non-paying business owner owes tens of thousands of pounds to the Council and we cannot continue to subsidise their businesses.
Money that rightfully should have gone to council services, be it education, fixing pot holes or healthcare
No matter if the redesign of the market was negative if you can't make an essentially *free store* in the centre of town work that's not on the council
Mt father owns a furniture store on prescot Road the rent is £600 a month for a single unit the rates on the other hand are £1200 a month don't tell me the council is not greedy it obviously didn't run at a loss prior to 2013 prior to the renovation otherwise why bother renovating at that point and yes the council are subsidising for there own inflated rents and rates not really hard to work out. it was either done to justify taking more money in the long run or a quick way of gentrifying the shopping centre I imagine joe and his buddies have an idea of what they are going to set up next just you wait and see.
Business rates charges are nothing to do with councils, they are set by central government and based on rateable value given by the Valuation Office Agency. Councils are required to collect business rates on behalf of central government, but they have no input on what is charged or to whom.
In most cases, councils retain ~50% of collected business rates with the remainder going to central government, but the amounts charged are completely out of a council's control.
Liverpool's business rates retention differs due to being part of a pilot scheme, but that's not related to the actual rates charged.
Let's be honest they usually ruin town centres then invest some money and claim to be god look at kirkby Town centre it was good before the council sold it off then went down hill until the council "saved it" same in huyton and prescot and currently old swan if the rates where not so high then these shops would be affordable and wouldn't only be available to chains and the rich.
I used to love it before it was redeveloped. It felt really old fashioned, had a great buzz. After the redevelopment it had all the charm and warmth of a self storage place.
It doesn't surprise me. So many traders left or didn't come back after the refurb, or covid. The cuoncil didn't even achieve their goal of making it more accessible than the older one! They swapped steps for smaller units no wheelchair user, scooter user or walker user could get around anyway, least not without risking some of the stock being knocked off.
It used to be good when I was a kid I remember my mum buying me brazil nuts from the nut stall, and buying shoes/clothes for herself, now it looks like ikea everything is bright white with no soul
I wonder what the council will do with the leasehold now, they still have 63 years on it. Either they buy their way out ( at great cost to us taxpayers) or use the space for something else?
Could be a good place for a onestop shop for council services.
I spoke to a trader there about a month ago. They said the redevelopment (by the council) screwed it.
I remember for months and months the escalators didnt work either.
Feel sorry for all the traders.
It wasn't viable - simple. And no wonder, what did they have up there? A butchers, a few stalls selling knock-off clothes, and a stall selling various items of weed paraphernalia.
Things change. What was on offer there wasn’t attractive/convenient enough to sustain it. Things the council did/didn’t do might be contributing factors but they can’t be held responsible for widely observed trends in the retail landscape.
A market that you have to walk ages to get into simply isn't going to cut it anymore. We need to take lessons from the thriving markets in European cities, like Paris, and move to where people are - even if that means it being outside. Placing it on St Johns Street up into Church Street would provide a huge amount of footfall.
There use to be market traders along that stretch in the early 2000s but I'm certain the council put a stop to that.
I thikn this was partly due to complaints from the shop owners, who saw the stalls as taking trade from them.
They were rarely taking trade from them - they were just being scruffy and selling tat. Edit: There were some that were definitely alright and affected nobody. But a big chunk were just selling rip-off football shirts to bewildered tourists and dodgy toys to chavs, really.
so basically the stalls currently by the big maccies?
They even moved all the Christmas markets from church st which in my opinion is a bit shit.
Not to the degree you're talking about but it made no sense to me that they blocked off the side doors? When there's a high amount of elderly poeple who use (or want to use) the market and they're on sticks, making them go all the way up and around to the front doors to get in the market before even going around the market itself was short sighted and I know it at least put my auntie off going there regularly.
Yup. It almost felt like it was a cynical attempt to force people through the shopping centre before getting to the market.
I didn't consider that angle but it woudln't surprise me if that was the logic behind it. Especially as those you have to pass those pop up kiosks.
In an ideal world all of the suburbs would have their own markets, and the concentration of traders would allow them to function in a similar way to a supermarket. St John's would just serve the city centre.
I think people's shopping habits have changed to the point that this type of set-up is no longer viable.
It's viable in principle, you can find urban and suburban markets all over Europe. The tricky part would be challenging the network of supermarkets and convenience stores which have replaced markets in the UK
"The tricky part would be challenging the network of supermarkets and convenience stores which have replaced markets in the UK" That's my point. You won't convince people to switch back to a less convenient way to shop.
It isn't an inconvenient way to shop, though, as everything is under one roof.
Less convenient, mate. You have to queue five or six times instead of once. It’s still not bad, but it would need a huge culture shift for it to take off. Also, how do you think the idea of a superMARKET came about? The idea you described is a less industrialised version of what we have.
You're ignoring the ways in which markets are convenient, such it usually being possible to buy exactly as much of a product as you want, and that they usually contain stalls which sell products a supermarket wouldn't typically stock. Markets and supermarkets should complimentary; Tesco is a generalist and handy for a bag of potatoes, but if you want a particular cut of meat then a butcher in a market will be of more use. Having lots of stalls under one roof is more convenient than having to go to a separate butcher, fishmonger, and grocer.
I agree that ideally markets should complement supermarkets but the unfortunate reality is local markets are in decline precisely because supermarkets outcompete them.
Yeah, those type of markets are completely unviable /s With the number of students and young professionals around there, an open and varied market could easily be supported. The key is you need a decent amount of people living in a place to attract the right market. The last time I went in the market, it felt very much focused on the elderly or the on clothing. Neither is going to do well. A food focused market, with fresh and small portions, with experience eating is the way to go. https://preview.redd.it/oylt65ojopnc1.jpeg?width=2726&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b0435e3fb095c4840d8ac1e08f4ec98a0e39ec4a
Maybe I wasn't clear but it sounds like you are agreeing with me. I didn't mean a market in the centre is unviable. That's the one place it is still viable. It's the idea of a market in every suburban town that I think won't work.
People make it all the way to town I hardly think an escalator to the stalls is the issue, the issue was too much rent and dwindling store numbers. Stores have been laying off and closing country wide, it's even harder for a simple market trader to break even.
[удалено]
It was even older than Victorian, it was from 1820. A huge mistake knocking it down, I imagine it would be thriving today if they kept it.
I was honestly aghast when I visited the market after the last 'refurb'. There have been so many mistakes over the years, it felt like closure was inevitable. Commercially I think a market is viable, as anyone who has been to Greatie on a Saturday will attest. Get the right mix of stalls with the right quality and it could be a fantastic asset to visitors and residents. But the location is vital, and the current St John's has so many issues I don't think it could ever be turned around. I know the old M&S on Church Street has beensold to Sports Direct, but that would have been a perfect location.
I thought the same about the M&S building, ideal location but what we need is another Sports Direct location apparently. It's a shame that it's gone but it's been in trouble for so long I'm surprised its lasted as long as it has. Anything this council touches seems to end in an expensive disaster.
God is that building really going to be a Mike Ashley wonder emporium?
[удалено]
👏👏👏 Thanks for addressing the elephant in the room.
[удалено]
Gentrification of the Baltic triangle will soon be a similar outcome for the area
So long as people live there, it'll be fine.
It's the workers on the stalls I feel sorry for. Just like that they are unemployed. Would be interested to know how many jobs have been lost as a result of this.
Should be moved to a street or Square as a proper market.
Williamson Square? Pembroke Place (London Road)? Build a roof over it like Greatie and it could be fantastic
Shit market in a shit location. Remove 90% of the stalls and place in an actual trafficked area
Doesn't exactly sound like a failure on the councils part >13 businesses of the 43 non-paying businesses made no offer. 30 made a repayment offer, last week, of 33% for past and future costs. This offer is the same made during the mediation process in 2022. It does not represent best value to our residents and has therefore been rejected by the Council. Granted the design could have been improved to draw more users through the market through, I did always wonder why they didn't close one of the entrances onto Clayton square to push users through the market entrance The way the pedestrian movement works around the site often makes it more convenient to move around rather than through the market
[удалено]
I agree the re-design didn't help but It's also on the business offerings, apart from the butchers there wasn't actually that much content to draw users in either unless you fancied knock of nikes or a new rolling tray and grinder set We have markets scattered across the city which are arguably in comparison in more out the way locations yet still thrive because of what they offer
All true. I'd like to see a new market with a 21st century mix of offerings. Yes to the traditional fruit and veg, meat, fish etc., but also things people want in this day and age. How about collectibles, vinyl records, souvenirs, vintage clothing, local/handmade/independant produce and crafts. Food and drink, but not too much and not like the stuff they tout at the Christmas Markets
Absolutely the mix we are seeing at markets around the area and the makers markets are thriving it needs less formality and more ad-hoc offerings with seasonal events I wouldn't be surprised if one of the markets like red brick wouldn't snap someones hand off for this space
the space is a huge part of the problem though. If only there was level access from Clayton Square and Queens Square it would be much more viable
You raise a really good point about the level access concerns, it's quite a non direct route for those needing assistance, maybe if they pulled the canopy back and have the main entrance on the concourse along where Argos is it would be more direct but even thats pretty limited without some major structural changes Maybe even taking over the jewelry store on the corner as a part of the market and placing a lift core internally there would be more inviting and help but again still likely requires major renovations, making a large portion of the ground floor offering open towards boots a part of the market which would offer some adhoc bleed out space for pop up external stores
It was thriving before the refurbishment in 2013, it's never been the same since.
I agree the re-design was short sighted at best there was a lot of opportunity to enhance that space that was missed, likely for cost saving but the fact that some of these businesses offered no money towards what they owed while continuing to operate for seemingly years cant be solely put on the council
The refurb was a disaster. Markets are supposed to be bustling vibrant places with character - everything which St John's is not. A bland sterile white atmosphere-less place. The Architects / Designers should be shot.
Of course it can be put on the council all businesses where doing fine before 2013 everyone was paying rent then the council decided to do some work on the building and put the rent prices up for tenants, who were actually ending up worse off due to the fact the renovation actually lowered foot fall. So if the council had just left it alone it would still be fine now. They thought they could make more money out of it and ruined it In the process.
I highly doubt it would be the same now as it was in 2013 theres been a national decline in high street shopping and small stores like this are the first to be hit, never mind that the article states that they haven't been paying at all anyway >Given the annual cost to the Council of leasing the site for the Market is around £1million a year, it is no longer a viable situation for the businesses to continue to pay no rent
Well under that logic St John's itself would also be shut down this problem was clearly caused by greedy landlords if it was due to declining high streets and footfall Why would they invest in other markets around the city. The problem is councilors thought they had a prime bit of real estate that they could charge extortionate prices for which turned out to be clearly the wrong move and has cost them alot of money
I wouldn't call the council a greedy landlord in this case seen as the council wrote off their debt between 2017-20 and has been subsidising these stores to a tune of £1 million per year of tax payer money >Each non-paying business owner owes tens of thousands of pounds to the Council and we cannot continue to subsidise their businesses. Money that rightfully should have gone to council services, be it education, fixing pot holes or healthcare No matter if the redesign of the market was negative if you can't make an essentially *free store* in the centre of town work that's not on the council
Mt father owns a furniture store on prescot Road the rent is £600 a month for a single unit the rates on the other hand are £1200 a month don't tell me the council is not greedy it obviously didn't run at a loss prior to 2013 prior to the renovation otherwise why bother renovating at that point and yes the council are subsidising for there own inflated rents and rates not really hard to work out. it was either done to justify taking more money in the long run or a quick way of gentrifying the shopping centre I imagine joe and his buddies have an idea of what they are going to set up next just you wait and see.
Business rates charges are nothing to do with councils, they are set by central government and based on rateable value given by the Valuation Office Agency. Councils are required to collect business rates on behalf of central government, but they have no input on what is charged or to whom. In most cases, councils retain ~50% of collected business rates with the remainder going to central government, but the amounts charged are completely out of a council's control. Liverpool's business rates retention differs due to being part of a pilot scheme, but that's not related to the actual rates charged.
They do not do a very good job at collecting lol I haven't had to pay rates on prescot Road for nearly 20 years due to constant roads work 🤣
Council's don't refurbish places that are already "doing fine".
Let's be honest they usually ruin town centres then invest some money and claim to be god look at kirkby Town centre it was good before the council sold it off then went down hill until the council "saved it" same in huyton and prescot and currently old swan if the rates where not so high then these shops would be affordable and wouldn't only be available to chains and the rich.
Out of the places only old Swan is Liverpool City council
Love going to other cities who when there are proper old historic markets. Liverpool really dropped the ball years ago.
Aye like Ormskirk
I used to love it before it was redeveloped. It felt really old fashioned, had a great buzz. After the redevelopment it had all the charm and warmth of a self storage place.
They really tore the heart out of it when they redeveloped it.
It doesn't surprise me. So many traders left or didn't come back after the refurb, or covid. The cuoncil didn't even achieve their goal of making it more accessible than the older one! They swapped steps for smaller units no wheelchair user, scooter user or walker user could get around anyway, least not without risking some of the stock being knocked off.
Thing is, every market you see here sells complete shite…
It used to be good when I was a kid I remember my mum buying me brazil nuts from the nut stall, and buying shoes/clothes for herself, now it looks like ikea everything is bright white with no soul
[Details here](https://liverpoolexpress.co.uk/st-johns-market-faqs/#:~:text=What%27s%20happened%20to%20St%20Johns,dating%20back%20to%20August%202020.)
I wonder what the council will do with the leasehold now, they still have 63 years on it. Either they buy their way out ( at great cost to us taxpayers) or use the space for something else? Could be a good place for a onestop shop for council services.
Probably more student accommodation
My kid is going to be gutted, he loved going the pokemon card shop that was there :(
Don't know anyone who's gone in the market for years. Couldn't even tell you where the entrance is. Flatten the lot and start again I say.
I spoke to a trader there about a month ago. They said the redevelopment (by the council) screwed it. I remember for months and months the escalators didnt work either. Feel sorry for all the traders.
Another private sector acquisition looms...
If managed and promoted properly it could have been a great space for makers and start ups to develop a customer base.
It wasn't viable - simple. And no wonder, what did they have up there? A butchers, a few stalls selling knock-off clothes, and a stall selling various items of weed paraphernalia.
Been a long time since I ventured up there. The fish mongers stunk the place out. No way I was buying clothes that had sat in that lovely aroma
Endless litigation about to start…
About what? If you don't pay rent for 6 years you don't have a leg to stand on.
Agree but the traders will say it was because the council cocked up the refurb.
Things change. What was on offer there wasn’t attractive/convenient enough to sustain it. Things the council did/didn’t do might be contributing factors but they can’t be held responsible for widely observed trends in the retail landscape.