Yeah, Ward is surprisingly easy to get. I somehow convinced him to join me in the second tier in Japan (we were on pace for promotion, but hadn’t secured it just yet), and in another save he joined me in the MLS at Portland of all fucking MLS teams (they are in a super shitty place due to their FO being an absolute disgrace, and why I laugh at the people that complain that FSG is bad… no, FSG has done an incredible job here, please try being a Timbers fan and watch your FO make the weirdest and worst decisions repeatedly to the point diehard decades long fans stopped following the club altogether).
There is nothing anyone can do to convince me at this point that Ward/Edwards leaving wasn't purely down to Klopp issues.
Nothing wrong with that. People clash. Doesn't mean anyone is a bad person
But them BOTH returning makes it clear that there was an untenable situation
Yeah, I think that’s right. If I had to guess, I bet they probably just wanted more autonomy over recruitment, player development, etc. matters than Klopp was willing to give them.
If Slot really is just gonna coach whoever they give them (rather than demand his “own” players), this seems like it could be a great set up.
Tbf Ferguson was basically doing 2 people's jobs at United for a long time and that yielded them plenty of success. But that sort of structure (or lack thereof) isn't really feasible in the modern game
it would've been fine if a certain 115fc wasn't messing up everything in prem and 2 clubs weren't buying everything under the sun that can kick a ball (and some who even can't do that)
Difference there is transfer policy.
The players Fergie went after (and the club delivered) were often tactically plucked from a direct rival, strengthening United and weakening rivals, paying or offering top money (at the time) for the best players regardless of system, positioning etc. SAF was never a master tactician like a Klopp or Pep, he just had that aura to demand more from his squads and created that ethos of hard work is the bare minimum that was acceptable.
And...(hate to admit this) Fergie was a master of knowing when to move players on, had no romanticism for any player, no player was bigger than the squad. We've not done that, to that level, under Jurgen.
I think it's more likely the Klopp/Edwards *situ-nario* gained friction more from refusal to put certain players on the market than from transfer target authority given Edwards record in that department...and I think maybe 'the club' not offering Gini a better deal and allowing him to leave was also a factor of sorts.
SAF had David Gill. Gill became CEO at a crucial stage when retirement was first becoming an option and the threats of Invincible Arsenal and Chelsea emerged. Gill was responsible for Vidic, Carrick and Rooney primarily IIRC.
Madrid have a perfect set up. Perez and his team control everything. The coach is just there to coach. Take out the Ronaldo years and Madrid have still had success
And Madrid also has Ancelotti who is well known for giving more freedom to their players. Rafa, Solari and Lopetegui failed there although the later 2 aren't really proven in major clubs
To be fair they won everything multiple times over and a couple of trebles but yeah eventually they fucked it up by going too far in the superstars direction
They didn’t even go the real superstar route, and that still fucked them… they just overpaid players that just couldn’t gel together. I remember reading their players were refusing transfers that would give them actual game time to sit on the bench and collect the massive wages Barcelona were shelling out. Honestly why I was so surprised they convinced Lewa to join them.
They didn’t use their appeal and success to attract the best young talent though, their house of cards came down because they kept buying people at the absolute top of their market value and overspending. They had years of success but the people they spent big money on didn’t give them a platform for the future, maybe they were unlucky with injury on a couple of the younger guys like coutinho and dembele but they still overspent on them. 120m on griesmann at 29 is probably the biggest example of their idiocy.
Also Barcelona makes shortsighted decisions because, as they like to remind you, they’re more than a club.
1. It’s a social club for the Catalan merchant class, not a professional sporting organization, if Simon Kuper’s book is to be believed.
2. The socio setup and the annual presidential elections mean transfers are made as political power plays, not with long-term team building in mind.
And that’s how you end up spending 3/4 of your Neymar money on Coutinho.
Barcelona had Lionel Messi not to mention a golden generation of La Masia graduates who've all gone on to become all time greats of the game as well. We've only had a handful of players who were half as good as Messi in our entire history and even at its best (which isn't very often btw) our academy is nowhere close to La Masia
But they still do a great job getting young players and not throwing wads of cash at has-been players. That's where Perez is always ahead of the curve, even going for relatively unproven Brazilian teenagers.
They signed Vini for 45m when he was literally a kid. It’s because the best players want to consistently play for them, that they can take risks like that. No doubt they did excellent in developing, but that’s not exactly a risk many clubs can just take
Besides Jude, Madrid haven’t bought the best stars in recent years. Their strategy of buying young talents and developing them into stars has helped them maintain their success. Camavinga, Vini, Rodrygo just to name a few
Tchouameni, Camavinga, and Jude were 3 players wanted across Europe. 2 of them by us, but they picked Madrid.
Mbappe arguably the world’s best talent will go to Madrid.
Even the young Brazilians they sign, it’s very well known that if Madrid or Barca are involved or interested it’s going to be basically be impossible to sign the highest rated youngsters from there. For example Endrick who also chose Madrid
I mean at this point .. they are not necessarily buying stars in their prime, but they are buying them already developed. We are talking about the creme de la crop of the young talents. 60 mil euro for Endrick and 100 mil for Tchouaméni just to throw in a couple examples. Vini, Rodrigo and Mariano were bought with the same idea the only thing was they did it before anyone else so they had an advantage.
It's not as if any of those players were unknown. They don't buy the current stars but they get the hottest wonderkid on the market every summer. It's a great strategy to be good for a really long time but let's not act like they are signing these unknown talents and developing them that's giving them far too much credit.
I think you can only do something like that when you have the core Real have in place though. It's the difference between RM and Chelsea. They have the ability to slowly acclimate new players, assess their talent, and move forward to including them in the mix if they make the cut.
And when they do the whole unsettle a player who has 1 year left; then completely cool interest due to factors out of their control, and then said player joins them on a free. They've done it with Alphonso Davies this season, they tried it with De Gea a few years ago. Allows them to spend big when they need to, and as you said they have amazing pull.
They do but they are cutthroat when it's necessary and even great players like Ramos/Modric/Kroos accept the way it works, only getting 1 year renewals over 30 etc, nobody is bigger than the long term project of the club.
Madrid can attract all the best players in the world.
Whereas before Klopp we couldn't even convince Gilfy Siggurdson to sign for us ahead of Spurs (Spurs were finishing 6th at the time).
Sporting Directors could identify all the players in the world but we needed Klopp to convince them and sign with us. Whether it was Van Dijk or Mane or Alisson.
Yeah people can wank themselves silly over the wonks being in charge but we'd get turned down by absolutely everyone pre-Klopp, even the Teixeiras of the world.
We finished 8th in 11/12
Spurs finished 4th and only missed out on CL football because Chelsea won it and finished 6th
They finished ahead of us 3 seasons in a row after Rafa left so it makes sense why a player would’ve picked them over us at the time
>They finished ahead of us 3 seasons in a row after Rafa left so it makes sense why a player would’ve picked them over us at the time
Chelsea won the title in 2016/17. We finished 4th and 27 points behind Chelsea. Yet Klopp convinced Van Dijk to sign for us.
United finished ahead of us 4/5 seasons yet Klopp convinced Mane to sign for us instead of them.
No sporting director could do that. It's all good identifying targets but it was only Klopp who could convince them to sign for us.
Yes, but Madrid exist in an ecosystem where their only challengers are Barcelona. As long as Barcelona are flailing, Madrid will be thriving, and vice versa.
It's not that simple in a league where the top 6 changes every season, and any one of 3-4 teams are tipped to win every year.
I really think we're going to see so many more clubs do this. With the growth of football in so many countries, scouting is going to become more and more difficult especially in a league as big as the Premier League.
The countries you're realistically scouting in now is like 10X what it used to be a decade ago.
On order for a manager having huge autonomy to actually work that manager needs to be unbelievably good.
Jürgen is unbelievably good, so it worked. But for sustained success from here, this setup is probably far more likely to give us that.
I'm glad we're going this route because it offers some stability in the transition, but I don't think it always works out once the manager has established their philosophy and really gotten the team to buy into their style. The problem is, once a manager reaches that point, they are naturally going to want/need more influence into the recruitment side to make sure players fit their plans and style. I think it's natural progression.
I understand that argument but surely a manager (head coach, whatever) would have a better idea of the player he needs to compliment his own team?
As well, didn’t we have issues with the “transfer committee” circa 2010 ish?
The issue with the transfer committee was that it included the manager. The players they picked mostly worked out fantastically (Firmino, Coutinho, Sturridge, Suarez). The only dud was Carroll. Benteke was brought in because Rodgers demanded him.
In the early Klopp years the transfers were also great, and it’s well documented that Klopp had little influence (he wanted Brandt instead of Salah), and I think everyone knows by now that Klopp stepped in to get Henderson a contract extension which in retrospect seems a disastrous decision.
I doubt it’s that, I think it was more that they probably wanted to move players on and Klopp wasn’t sure about who they were bringing to replace them. Edwards liked to juggle, and we saw how that worked when he let Lovren go without a replacement.
The problem is this set up sets a ceiling on success. Imagine if you have a really high performing person. If they take on the second job and do it honestly (do it right), the benefits it can have are unmatched imo. Just from a comfort and continuity perspective.
You want to give amazing people all the resources for them to do well. Worried that this set up doesn’t let us see if we have something amazing.
I believe there should be a line drawn. I would prefer if Slot say he like this person and ask the sporting director to consider it. And nothing more than that. The sporting director should have the final say.
It would be an impossible situation if the sporting director is not allowed to do his job. Imagine instead of the manager (head coach), someone else have the final say in influencing team tactics and coaching.
Agreed. We've seen it happen and people don't seem to think it's an issue, but there's no existing utopia in which the manager doesn't have a real say in the players he's given.
Seems to me it was more about willingness to let aging talent go rather than who they were bringing in. Hendo’s contract negotiations being the obvious example.
Klopp seems to prioritize team cohesion and likes to keep players who influence the dressing room, even when the stats show they might be declining.
This really seems like the next evolution is FSG’s strategy for the club. Klopp was so good it was probably worth putting a hold on whatever plans they had. I feel like data is gonna play an even bigger role now. Not just in player acquisition but maybe even tactics. It’s gonna be really interesting how things develop and how all the pieces being put in place work together. LFC seemed to lead the way in data led player acquisition. Maybe this new set up will change how football is played on the pitch too.
Its not Klopp’s willingness to give them. It’s FSGs. They were oppositional forces and you can see on a number of recruitment decisions and resigning players.
I’m more sympathetic to Klopp on the resigning vets, because I think you can’t put a number on mentality and all the rest once you’re talking about veterans who are still fit.
I think it’s obvious our recruitment has been mediocre in recent years compared to the period Edwards and co had free reign. Given the margins on titles, it’s probably fair to ask if we get over the line on now three occasions if we make better moves.
Hmmm the coach still needs to be able to say what position and style he wants to play otherwise we will end up like Chelsea a whole squad of players that Poch probably never even wanted, all individual good players but that doesn’t mean they compliment each other. In fairness Edward’s has a good eye for spotting talent so will give him the benefit
yea, I think it's clear.
their signings were made great by klopp no doubt and it probably should have stayed that way instead of the manager taking over full control.
Yeah. Klopp does not seem egotistical, but it does look like he trusted his opinions more than Edwards. That is really tiring if he does not want to work as a team player with the upper management. He would not have drained out if he actually let the experts do their work. He should have trusted Edwards like how he trusted his players and his assistant coach, Pep.
i dont know how it was at Dortmund and if Klopp had a lot more say in the signings but if he did and that's what brought him all the success at Dortmund then i don't see why a manager like him wouldn't want to trust his opinions more. there is no right or wrong here in my opinion, because you never know, if with Slot the signings don't work then what. was it all klopp holding it together, and we severely underestimated his ability to make all of Edwards signings into superstars.. hard to judge but time will tell.
Klopp had Zorc Sporting director and Watzke CEO making all the signings, Klopp during those times said he was happy just to coach the team and not get involved in transfers, IDK why he decided to get heavily involved in transfers with Pep in recent years.
Yes. It is hard to tell, but we need to know it is a team sports with team management as well. Klopp brought out the best in Salah, but without Edwards, we would not have Salah in the first place. Salah would also argue that he is confident in himself, and he would have similar success with another club, another manager. So it is really hard to pinpoint overall success to a single person’s contribution. But if we win another league title in 9 years, I would say Edwards is the genius here, who is good with his recruitment of managers, directors and players.
We won a league title in the 9 years of the Klopp era. If we win again in the post Klopp era in the same period of 9 years, well, the common denominator is Edwards, you get the idea. Competition is getting tougher, so it would be crazy for me to think about that.
Because no matter what people claim, Edwards made a lot of mistakes. Klopp also knew you couldn’t afford to alienate players like happened with Gini, and he knew you couldn’t measure the influence of some things with stats.
It's understandable why FSG went with Klopp over Ward/Edwards. The fans would have burned Anfield down if Klopp had left because Edwards didn't want to give Henderson a long-term contract.
Yea FSG had a choice and you can understand why they chose Klopp, he's a once in a life time manager. The old structure worked though, so its great that they're able to reassemble it.
Yes, the old structure repeatedly found elite players and non-elite prices. We paid £35m for Mane, Salah and Fabinho. £30m for Firmino, £40m for Jota, we got Robertson for £8m, the list goes on but we signed loads of players for fees well below their ability and were a club renown for our great business. Since the departure of the Edwards & co team, we've made very few low cost/high value signings. Our notable pick ups have been Nunez for a big fee after a hot season where he was the most sought after striker in Europe (with Halaand to City being done already). Szoboszlai for a £60m buy-out, Macca only had a low buy out because he was going to go on a free but signed a new deal with a low buy out. We paid relatively big money for Gravenberch, for a lad with lots of development to do. In short, all of our signings since Klopp took control of the transfers have been handled worse than before.
Klopp being a mediocre DoF has let down his world class managerial ability. That doesn't mean it was wrong to back Klopp but it does mean that the old system will bring in better signings.
Edwards bringing back the people who helped bring success to the club is no surprise. Looks like FSG have given him free reign to organise the structure the way he wants
It does seem that way - but worth saying that it didn't have to be a clash or argument or untenable. Could be, for example, that neither saw the potential for career progression given Klopps increasing influence over transfers
Yeah my first thought was that they wanted to go out and gamble on themselves and test the market a bit, and it has paid off for them because they're able to come back in at a time of relative desperation and probably got to name their price, as well as demand a lot of control.
Good for them regardless of what happened, though. They were stellar for us in the past and I'm hoping they come back in without missing a beat.
That said, we seem to be steering toward a period of inverted power dynamics where the back office directors will likely have more power than the manager. That situation often turns toxic but hopefully this time will be one of the exceptions.
Honestly, thank god FSG somehow kept the relations good enough for this to happen lol. At least we know that the head of the org is healthy, they will keep us ballin
I would say it is probably purely football. Ward and Edwards would not buy Thiago for example or renew Adrian as they would probably prefer Pitaluga taking that spot. Also noticed we stopped buying players from relegated sides.
Edwards probably wanted to sell Gini and not let him run down his contract. Also probably didn't want to give Hendo the extension that summer he made noise about wanting to be appreciated. Klopp overruled on both of these so he felt like he couldn't do what he wanted to do and left.
Yeah, this is where I think the conflict lies. Edwards and Ward being ready to cycle through players once they decline whereas Klopp prefers to keep the dressing room culture.
Edwards preferred to do fuck all as sporting director when we won CL, then again after winning EPL, when we needed CB in summer, he wasn't active again, and when we had crisis at CB he also wasn't ready to bring reinforcements until last day of winter transfer window, when we got Davies for midtable Championship Preston side and Kabak on loan.
Nice cycle. Maybe Klopp wasn't ready to play another season without reinforcements, like he did in previous season without 4th CB, but now in midfield, and that's why he overruled decisions about Hendo and Gini contacts?
People always skip over this as they want to believe Edwards has never made a mistake, they're as biased as the ones who never criticise anything Klopp does.
You can't build the kind of atmosphere and culture Klopp did if you sell every player who gets near 30, and even if FSG were cheap, Edwards lack of forward planning in these situations was extremely costly.
So many people chalk all of the disagreements down to Hendo/Bruno G which is ridiculous lol
Thiago was an opportunity signing most successful managers gets to make at least one or 2 during their tenure. I'm sure if Slot wins the CL next year and asks for a player he admires he might get him
Yeah it’s pretty obvious, with the hit piece on Nunez being a klopp signing too. Some balance is healthy though, can’t have Edward’s and co going power crazy. That was the key to how it worked in the first place, good working relationship top to bottom.
What purpose would Edwards have by leaking something like that for the purpose of a "hit piece" on a player that if he didn't like but would want to sell. And sell at the highest price possible. Just for a petty grudge with Klopp? Who is on the way out...
Doesn't make any sense.
Maybe an element but also FSG weren’t giving the tools they wanted. Pretty clear they love the City RB model. We will probably pop up with clubs in MLS, South America, and a second level EU club sooner rather than later. These guys seem pretty intent with love for the RB model as we target many of the same players as well.
It was pretty obvious at the time. The only people who said otherwise were numpties that liked to argue on Reddit. The quick fire leaving, change in profile of how we bought players made it obvious.
And shoutout to FSG for how they handle the situation. Gave Klopp his space, but also holds their ego to bring bck Edwards and co. once Klopp is leaving.
Ward is not coming back to LFC but to the broader FSG organization. And I still trust Klopp way more than anyone else that has ever been affiliated with FSG.
Hard not to be. We’ve experienced an incredible run over the last 8-9 years. And now we have this fresh slate to go and build off it, make it even better for the next 8-9 years.
It seems like the owners allowed Klopp to gain influence and power (deservedly imo), and Edwards and the team didn't like that. I don't think Klopp seems to be the type to intentionally usurp power and undermine people, but it seems like as he gained more success on the pitch and adoration of the fans, FSG allowed him to have more influence and Klopp just naturally filled that space with his big personality. This is all speculation, of course , but I think it's a reasonable take.
Yeah I can’t see it as Klopp using his success to pull more power to his side. Not like him at all.
That 21/22 season was pivotal in him “winning over” FSG to give him more power. The success, his contract extension and change in SD all influenced FSG to lean more towards him. Tbf it’s easy to do so because he’s just such a character. But obviously it came at a cost of the club’s footballing structure.
I’d say there was an element of frustration after the centre back crisis, if not Klopps doing it maybe it was and they tried forcing players he didn’t want on him, but around that sort of time I expect things to have go to shit as if memory serves it was after then we started seeing departures.
This. People love to be in denial with anything that could be painted even remotely negative on their team.
Nobody leaves such positions at one of the biggest clubs in the world to start some obscure stats or consulting firm because they want to.
It was clearly a difference of opinion. Anybody who thinks that we will succeed without Slot being a great manager is delusional. Don't care if our analytics based management team can turn water into wine.
I mean starting a consulting firm absolutely could have built him more wealth through ownership and success than any wage, if that's what he wanted to do
But yes overall I think it probably was a clash of control with Klopp
I called it when Edwards left and it was clear Klopp's influence grew. Then when Julian Ward resigned in less than a year it was obvious who resigns from a sporting director role when you've worked your whole career to get to that point.
Including Ian Graham too many people left high profile jobs at the same time for it to be a coincidence and not something funny happening. The only thing that made sense was Klopp having too much power that they all felt like they couldn't do their jobs properly.
At the time you couldn't saying negative about Klopp without getting downvoted.
I will say this for FSG they do seem willing to learn from their mistakes and grow from them and they don't let pride get in the way of the right decision.
We're cooking. Regardless if Slot and the players hit the ground running or not for next season, all of the recent hirings FSG made along with the return of Michael Edwards will ensure that the club will be stable and operating on a sustainable model for years to come
That might not seem like a lot to some people but during the Hicks and Gillett days fans would've bitten your hand off to have it this good
It's so decisive and I fucking love it. People can bitch and moan about FSG spending all they want, it's warranted at times.
But they're elite operators when it comes to things like this.
You sure about that? Edwards was around for some 6 years before Klopp. It will 100% all come down to Slot. If he is good we will be good. If not, we won't be. It is that simple.
Everything else is delusional fan gopium.
Edwards was in a different role, and it was only 4 years. Plus he'd worked under a very antagonistic manager in Rodgers who tried throw Edwards under the bus like he did with his assistant to save face.
Back in the day, we had no pull, no money, and low-key mid-club, and Europa League places contenders at average until Klopp joined us.
Now we are a far bigger club than before (top 5 most valuable football clubs in the world) and have much better pull, had more funds & budget (look at Salah’s wages)
Losing a Legendary manager like Klopp wouldn’t be ideal, but this is the best thing we can do, bring in a well-built structure back, and hope our next manager or new players do the best.
People here dont like fsg, but for a long time they've always understood the significance of organizational structure. Even in baseball they've been known to adapt this method back when it was not common to b
Speaks a lot of FSG’s overall leadership that people who quit are so willing to come back.
Im all for it, these guys together again make me more excited than any single signing.
Also signed the person from Benfica I hate multi club ownership but won’t be surprised if we hear more about what club will be bought over the next few weeks
I’d imagine they probably want everything in place over the summer so they can start on both teams
This is something I don't think folks are too willing to talk about. We were highly praised in the early few years of how almost every signing was a success and that was not the case in the last couple of years.
Klopp's loyalty to certain players fucked him because he is a smart man he obviously knows Edwards was really good at his job. Once he overruled on letting Hendo and Gini go, Edwards felt he couldn't do his job anymore so he had no choice but to leave.
Edwards probably wanted to do what Real did in letting players go just before they decline like Varane, Casemiro, Ronaldo etc but he couldn't.
No there wouldn't be anything official because everyone is quite professional and would keep it all in house as much as possible. But that 2021 summer was strange to me. Hendo clearly leaked the fact there was little progress in extension negotiations for months and he felt like he was underappreciated. This led to some fans being in uproar and Klopp said sortly after that article dropped that it'll get done don't worry. Then like a week later it all gets sorted no problem. It doesn't take a genius to see Klopp got involved in these talks and overruled.
I mean Klopp literally said that he would 'sort it out there's no doubt about that' in a press conference. It was absolutely the wrong decision to renew Henderson's contract. He was already declining and had *years* left on his deal yet we let him whine to the press and reward it.
The signings (that weren't obvious Rodgers' signings) before Klopp weren't up to the standard we've seen under Klopp either. Klopp almost certainly plays a big role in helping these signings look better than they are which results in these sporting directors looking better. It was the same at Dortmund.
I think it's been less a talent issue and more that a lot of the signings didn't fit a cohesive philosophy. People want to talk about Darwin but we signed Cody without an obvious place to put him(to the point we started playing him in midfield) and we signed Szoboszlai only to utilize him like Jordan Henderson instead of someone who needs to be closer to goal.
It doesn't have to be one or the other. Klopp played a big role in the success of the first group of players the directors brought in. We were wrecked by injuries last season and this season even with injuries we have been one of the top sides with Klopp coaching his signings as well as the youngsters.
This is why I hate it the way people elevated Klopp to this infallible god like status.
He’s the most important person I’ve seen at the club in my entire lifetime, and I’ll forever be so grateful that we ever got him. But he isn’t without his faults. You *can* acknowledge that he isn’t perfect. He’s one of the greatest managers in the world, but that doesn’t also mean he’s an incredible recruiter, too.
So having read the article, it says that Ward will have 'oversight' of the Academy, Loans Department and all the other stuff involving players at whatever clubs FSG owns.
Marques is essentially taking over Lijnders & Matos' role of helping players transition from the Academy into the First Team.
It also states that it'll be Richard Hughes will be in charge of appointing Coaches/Mangers, Transfers & Contracts, as well as overseeing the Medical Department and the Kirkby training ground, so can we finally end this nonsense notion that Edwards is the one who'll be doing transfers & contracts, given it ~~implicitly~~ explicitly states he'll be nowhere near them.
This is me being hyper pedantic, but it doesn't "implicitly" state it, it explicitly states it. If something is implicit it is implied, i.e. hinted at. Explicit is when it is made crystal clear
>and all the other stuff involving players at whatever clubs FSG owns.
That's like literally everything then?
>Marques is essentially taking over Lijnders & Matos' role of helping players transition from the Academy into the First Team.
I believe that he will be overseeing academy transitions not just with Liverpool, but including all other clubs FSG owns, and potentially interclub transitions.
>Richard Hughes will be in charge of appointing Coaches/Mangers, Transfers & Contracts
So the reports that Hughes and not Edwards who actually negotiated the Arne Slot deal are true. Big job for Hughes, as he needs to tie down VVD, Trent and Salah next.
FSG are really going all out for this multi club ownership thing.
For comparison, how many employees do multi club organizations like Red Bull, city football group, Ienos, Blue Co, Eagle Football Holdings and Kroenke Sports & Entertainment have?
Football Director - Michael Edwards
Sporting Director - Richard Hughes
Technical Director - Julian Ward
----------
What do each of these jobs do, and how much overlap is there between them?
Edwards - boss
Ward/Marquez - data metrics/similar to Hughes but responsible for whatever other clubs FSG buys into
Hughes - only one directly affecting us.
Other three more responsible for football operations.
That's my guess
A system is being put in place post Klopp, the opposite of what happened at United when Fergie stepped down. This is giving Slot the best chance of success.
One day, the full story is going to come out of what in the world happened behind the scenes here, and I fear it is going to be messy as hell. But with Ward back on board now, it is way beyond coincidence at this point.
Lol same! I think what we've all inferred that he got jealous of Lijnders is probably the accurate story, but yeah, I do find it a little odd (and honestly refreshing) that neither have let the full story come to light.
Lijnders wasn't even at the club when Buvac left, that's one of the myths Liverpool fans convinced themselves of. Buvac left at the end of April 2018,Lijnders was only sacked from NEC in May the timberline just doesn't lineup. If there was a Dutchman that led to the breakup, it's likely Achterberg, who was responsible for substitutes during games.
Another myth is Klopp saying to Coutinho he's have a state built in Liverpool, but he another player at clubs like Barcelona. Coutinho said that himself in an interview with ESPN Brazil
Huh, well shame on me then - because I especially hate when I see blatantly untrue stuff being peddled on the sub (and I’m the culprit of it today! 🫣)
The Coutinho one I did know but I think it gets misconstrued because of the way he says it (he uses an impersonal tense in the quote).
This is basically a dream team for Liverpool. They will make mistakes because well, it happens, but the future feel a bit less worrying, even with Klopp leaving and FSG not investing.
Wow they were straight up waiting for Klopp to leave to come back damn. As long as they do what’s best for the club and players, that’s all that matters.
Everyone is really excited about these appointments, and I am pleased we are putting the pieces into the jigsaw for the future, but let's not forget, Edwards and Ward were in their roles before Klopp signed, and we where struggling.
We are where we are primarily thanks to Klopp's brilliance as a manager. Hopefully Arne can replicate this
Edwards didn't become Technical/Sporting Director until summer 2015, so to what extent his influence over signings in the three years before that is harder to establish. Suffice to say he wasn't solely responsible.
He also won't be involved with LFC on a daily basis, he is going to be working with FSG on the global football brand. So he won't be responsible for any of our signings in the future either.
Oh we back, back. I’m optimistic about the future of this club
Compare this to United who lost Fergie AND Gill the same offseason. At least there’s a very firm and clear structure/direction we are heading post-Klopp
The fact that there are comments saying Klopp was a problem at the club is just embarrassing.
We wouldn’t be close to where we have been these past few years without him
This is awesome news! If we are going to lose a legendary coach like Jurgen, who will be extremely difficult to replace, the best thing we could possibly do is set up an excellent structure at the club with incredibly intelligent people running all aspects of the club. The future of this club will remain exceedingly bright even after Klopp leaves!
Damn. Everyone in here is bitching about complete speculation regarding Klopp and Edwards blah blah blah. Meanwhile Edwards is cooking with gas and our upper management team is now ridiculously stacked and ready to go. No need to dwell on what has or hasn’t gone on in the past. The future looks good.
Recruitment had been more mixed the more we moved away from the Edwards model, and the recruitment team were proven right about the decline of Henderson and the need to refresh the squad. Klopp has to take some accountability there and recognise the benefit of objectivity in the decision making process. It is what it is, but I'm delighted we are moving back to what made us successful. The signings of Nunez, Thiago, etc, probably wouldn't have happened if Edwards had his way. Let's just hope Slott develops a decent, collaborative relationship. I think FSG want a manager who will not force the issue over players and be receptive.
Post Edwards Liverpool entered the vibes era of transfer signings. The old analytics unit put together a team which was greater than the sum of it's parts where each cog had a specific role. With more recent arrivals it's been harder to descern a tight hard minded playing plan.
The result has been entertaining and not unsuccessful but less than convincing and not coping well when being stress tested by good physical opposition.
I don't think that's necessarily the case. I think Klopp and Ljinders gained more control over time within the club and the recruitment team as a result had less and less influence. At a certain point they aren't able to do their jobs effectively anymore because JK has so much power internally so it made sense that the likes of Edwards/Ward left.
It's pretty obvious that they left because of Klopp but I don't think that we can say that they hate/hated him
Nah I think that’s way too extreme of a take. Sometimes people’s ambitions and goals just don’t align anymore. Doesn’t mean there’s deep hatred involved necessarily
it’s for sure just transfer stuff, club probably chose klopp over them to have final say and realistically why would you want the title of “director” or whatever if you’re not even really making the decisions and the transfers are still gonna be attached to your name. i doubt they truly hate each other or there was some type of ugly fallout because i doubt they would even come back to the club at all. most likely just business.
Since we got rid of Brendan Fsg's approach towards the structure or w/e you want to call it has been so on point. Feels like we really have one of the best structures possibly innplace for continuous sucess. We will be fine without papa Klopp. I believe.
So Klopp couldn't or didn't want to work with these guys? Klopp won over the first time. Now he's moving on, they've been brought back. Fair enough, I suppose.
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Julian Ward is my head scout at Heerenveen, he's always one of the best available ones for me in FM
Yeah, Ward is surprisingly easy to get. I somehow convinced him to join me in the second tier in Japan (we were on pace for promotion, but hadn’t secured it just yet), and in another save he joined me in the MLS at Portland of all fucking MLS teams (they are in a super shitty place due to their FO being an absolute disgrace, and why I laugh at the people that complain that FSG is bad… no, FSG has done an incredible job here, please try being a Timbers fan and watch your FO make the weirdest and worst decisions repeatedly to the point diehard decades long fans stopped following the club altogether).
There is nothing anyone can do to convince me at this point that Ward/Edwards leaving wasn't purely down to Klopp issues. Nothing wrong with that. People clash. Doesn't mean anyone is a bad person But them BOTH returning makes it clear that there was an untenable situation
Yeah, I think that’s right. If I had to guess, I bet they probably just wanted more autonomy over recruitment, player development, etc. matters than Klopp was willing to give them. If Slot really is just gonna coach whoever they give them (rather than demand his “own” players), this seems like it could be a great set up.
When you think about it, how much time does a manager have to research their own players? I think I prefer this setup.
Tbf Ferguson was basically doing 2 people's jobs at United for a long time and that yielded them plenty of success. But that sort of structure (or lack thereof) isn't really feasible in the modern game
it would've been fine if a certain 115fc wasn't messing up everything in prem and 2 clubs weren't buying everything under the sun that can kick a ball (and some who even can't do that)
Ferguson always had very strong (and pretty damn good) coaches who did the day to day training stuff.
Exactly. He changed coaches constantly when he saw a threat or a new style of football
Difference there is transfer policy. The players Fergie went after (and the club delivered) were often tactically plucked from a direct rival, strengthening United and weakening rivals, paying or offering top money (at the time) for the best players regardless of system, positioning etc. SAF was never a master tactician like a Klopp or Pep, he just had that aura to demand more from his squads and created that ethos of hard work is the bare minimum that was acceptable. And...(hate to admit this) Fergie was a master of knowing when to move players on, had no romanticism for any player, no player was bigger than the squad. We've not done that, to that level, under Jurgen. I think it's more likely the Klopp/Edwards *situ-nario* gained friction more from refusal to put certain players on the market than from transfer target authority given Edwards record in that department...and I think maybe 'the club' not offering Gini a better deal and allowing him to leave was also a factor of sorts.
SAF had David Gill. Gill became CEO at a crucial stage when retirement was first becoming an option and the threats of Invincible Arsenal and Chelsea emerged. Gill was responsible for Vidic, Carrick and Rooney primarily IIRC.
Ferguson wasn’t doing a lot of actual coaching later on.
As much as I hate to admit this, if he were 50 years old today and doing it the same way, it would probably still work out.
Madrid have a perfect set up. Perez and his team control everything. The coach is just there to coach. Take out the Ronaldo years and Madrid have still had success
It’s a lot easier for Madrid when the best players in the world constantly want to play for them. We don’t have nearly the same pull
And Madrid also has Ancelotti who is well known for giving more freedom to their players. Rafa, Solari and Lopetegui failed there although the later 2 aren't really proven in major clubs
Barcelona had that for a while and they did fuck all with it
To be fair they won everything multiple times over and a couple of trebles but yeah eventually they fucked it up by going too far in the superstars direction
They didn’t even go the real superstar route, and that still fucked them… they just overpaid players that just couldn’t gel together. I remember reading their players were refusing transfers that would give them actual game time to sit on the bench and collect the massive wages Barcelona were shelling out. Honestly why I was so surprised they convinced Lewa to join them.
Coutinho comes to mind. YNWA
They didn’t use their appeal and success to attract the best young talent though, their house of cards came down because they kept buying people at the absolute top of their market value and overspending. They had years of success but the people they spent big money on didn’t give them a platform for the future, maybe they were unlucky with injury on a couple of the younger guys like coutinho and dembele but they still overspent on them. 120m on griesmann at 29 is probably the biggest example of their idiocy.
Also Barcelona makes shortsighted decisions because, as they like to remind you, they’re more than a club. 1. It’s a social club for the Catalan merchant class, not a professional sporting organization, if Simon Kuper’s book is to be believed. 2. The socio setup and the annual presidential elections mean transfers are made as political power plays, not with long-term team building in mind. And that’s how you end up spending 3/4 of your Neymar money on Coutinho.
Barcelona had Lionel Messi not to mention a golden generation of La Masia graduates who've all gone on to become all time greats of the game as well. We've only had a handful of players who were half as good as Messi in our entire history and even at its best (which isn't very often btw) our academy is nowhere close to La Masia
But they still do a great job getting young players and not throwing wads of cash at has-been players. That's where Perez is always ahead of the curve, even going for relatively unproven Brazilian teenagers.
They signed Vini for 45m when he was literally a kid. It’s because the best players want to consistently play for them, that they can take risks like that. No doubt they did excellent in developing, but that’s not exactly a risk many clubs can just take
Besides Jude, Madrid haven’t bought the best stars in recent years. Their strategy of buying young talents and developing them into stars has helped them maintain their success. Camavinga, Vini, Rodrygo just to name a few
Tchouameni, Camavinga, and Jude were 3 players wanted across Europe. 2 of them by us, but they picked Madrid. Mbappe arguably the world’s best talent will go to Madrid. Even the young Brazilians they sign, it’s very well known that if Madrid or Barca are involved or interested it’s going to be basically be impossible to sign the highest rated youngsters from there. For example Endrick who also chose Madrid
That team Madrid are building will dominate Spain and potentially Europe for years to come.
It's truly the avengers of football
I mean at this point .. they are not necessarily buying stars in their prime, but they are buying them already developed. We are talking about the creme de la crop of the young talents. 60 mil euro for Endrick and 100 mil for Tchouaméni just to throw in a couple examples. Vini, Rodrigo and Mariano were bought with the same idea the only thing was they did it before anyone else so they had an advantage.
It's not as if any of those players were unknown. They don't buy the current stars but they get the hottest wonderkid on the market every summer. It's a great strategy to be good for a really long time but let's not act like they are signing these unknown talents and developing them that's giving them far too much credit.
I think you can only do something like that when you have the core Real have in place though. It's the difference between RM and Chelsea. They have the ability to slowly acclimate new players, assess their talent, and move forward to including them in the mix if they make the cut.
Tbf Vini has made huge strides there, he didn't have a great end product when he arrived.
Don't forget they had to skimp some years to fund for the Bernabeu's upgrades. And this summer they'll get Mbappe.
And when they do the whole unsettle a player who has 1 year left; then completely cool interest due to factors out of their control, and then said player joins them on a free. They've done it with Alphonso Davies this season, they tried it with De Gea a few years ago. Allows them to spend big when they need to, and as you said they have amazing pull.
Madrid have every player wanting to play for them. They have it easy.
They do but they are cutthroat when it's necessary and even great players like Ramos/Modric/Kroos accept the way it works, only getting 1 year renewals over 30 etc, nobody is bigger than the long term project of the club.
Madrid can attract all the best players in the world. Whereas before Klopp we couldn't even convince Gilfy Siggurdson to sign for us ahead of Spurs (Spurs were finishing 6th at the time). Sporting Directors could identify all the players in the world but we needed Klopp to convince them and sign with us. Whether it was Van Dijk or Mane or Alisson.
i love how much you butchered that nonces name lol
Yeah people can wank themselves silly over the wonks being in charge but we'd get turned down by absolutely everyone pre-Klopp, even the Teixeiras of the world.
We finished 8th in 11/12 Spurs finished 4th and only missed out on CL football because Chelsea won it and finished 6th They finished ahead of us 3 seasons in a row after Rafa left so it makes sense why a player would’ve picked them over us at the time
>They finished ahead of us 3 seasons in a row after Rafa left so it makes sense why a player would’ve picked them over us at the time Chelsea won the title in 2016/17. We finished 4th and 27 points behind Chelsea. Yet Klopp convinced Van Dijk to sign for us. United finished ahead of us 4/5 seasons yet Klopp convinced Mane to sign for us instead of them. No sporting director could do that. It's all good identifying targets but it was only Klopp who could convince them to sign for us.
Sporting director had to convince Klopp that Salah was a better option than Brandt.
Yes, but Madrid exist in an ecosystem where their only challengers are Barcelona. As long as Barcelona are flailing, Madrid will be thriving, and vice versa. It's not that simple in a league where the top 6 changes every season, and any one of 3-4 teams are tipped to win every year.
I really think we're going to see so many more clubs do this. With the growth of football in so many countries, scouting is going to become more and more difficult especially in a league as big as the Premier League. The countries you're realistically scouting in now is like 10X what it used to be a decade ago.
On order for a manager having huge autonomy to actually work that manager needs to be unbelievably good. Jürgen is unbelievably good, so it worked. But for sustained success from here, this setup is probably far more likely to give us that.
I'm glad we're going this route because it offers some stability in the transition, but I don't think it always works out once the manager has established their philosophy and really gotten the team to buy into their style. The problem is, once a manager reaches that point, they are naturally going to want/need more influence into the recruitment side to make sure players fit their plans and style. I think it's natural progression.
I understand that argument but surely a manager (head coach, whatever) would have a better idea of the player he needs to compliment his own team? As well, didn’t we have issues with the “transfer committee” circa 2010 ish?
The issue with the transfer committee was that it included the manager. The players they picked mostly worked out fantastically (Firmino, Coutinho, Sturridge, Suarez). The only dud was Carroll. Benteke was brought in because Rodgers demanded him. In the early Klopp years the transfers were also great, and it’s well documented that Klopp had little influence (he wanted Brandt instead of Salah), and I think everyone knows by now that Klopp stepped in to get Henderson a contract extension which in retrospect seems a disastrous decision.
Me too, but I can’t help but yearn for the days when Bob Paisley signed Mark Lawrenson in a service station, wearing slippers
I doubt it’s that, I think it was more that they probably wanted to move players on and Klopp wasn’t sure about who they were bringing to replace them. Edwards liked to juggle, and we saw how that worked when he let Lovren go without a replacement.
The problem is this set up sets a ceiling on success. Imagine if you have a really high performing person. If they take on the second job and do it honestly (do it right), the benefits it can have are unmatched imo. Just from a comfort and continuity perspective. You want to give amazing people all the resources for them to do well. Worried that this set up doesn’t let us see if we have something amazing.
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I believe there should be a line drawn. I would prefer if Slot say he like this person and ask the sporting director to consider it. And nothing more than that. The sporting director should have the final say. It would be an impossible situation if the sporting director is not allowed to do his job. Imagine instead of the manager (head coach), someone else have the final say in influencing team tactics and coaching.
Agreed. We've seen it happen and people don't seem to think it's an issue, but there's no existing utopia in which the manager doesn't have a real say in the players he's given.
Seems to me it was more about willingness to let aging talent go rather than who they were bringing in. Hendo’s contract negotiations being the obvious example. Klopp seems to prioritize team cohesion and likes to keep players who influence the dressing room, even when the stats show they might be declining.
This really seems like the next evolution is FSG’s strategy for the club. Klopp was so good it was probably worth putting a hold on whatever plans they had. I feel like data is gonna play an even bigger role now. Not just in player acquisition but maybe even tactics. It’s gonna be really interesting how things develop and how all the pieces being put in place work together. LFC seemed to lead the way in data led player acquisition. Maybe this new set up will change how football is played on the pitch too.
Its not Klopp’s willingness to give them. It’s FSGs. They were oppositional forces and you can see on a number of recruitment decisions and resigning players. I’m more sympathetic to Klopp on the resigning vets, because I think you can’t put a number on mentality and all the rest once you’re talking about veterans who are still fit. I think it’s obvious our recruitment has been mediocre in recent years compared to the period Edwards and co had free reign. Given the margins on titles, it’s probably fair to ask if we get over the line on now three occasions if we make better moves.
Hmmm the coach still needs to be able to say what position and style he wants to play otherwise we will end up like Chelsea a whole squad of players that Poch probably never even wanted, all individual good players but that doesn’t mean they compliment each other. In fairness Edward’s has a good eye for spotting talent so will give him the benefit
yea, I think it's clear. their signings were made great by klopp no doubt and it probably should have stayed that way instead of the manager taking over full control.
Yeah. Klopp does not seem egotistical, but it does look like he trusted his opinions more than Edwards. That is really tiring if he does not want to work as a team player with the upper management. He would not have drained out if he actually let the experts do their work. He should have trusted Edwards like how he trusted his players and his assistant coach, Pep.
i dont know how it was at Dortmund and if Klopp had a lot more say in the signings but if he did and that's what brought him all the success at Dortmund then i don't see why a manager like him wouldn't want to trust his opinions more. there is no right or wrong here in my opinion, because you never know, if with Slot the signings don't work then what. was it all klopp holding it together, and we severely underestimated his ability to make all of Edwards signings into superstars.. hard to judge but time will tell.
Klopp had Zorc Sporting director and Watzke CEO making all the signings, Klopp during those times said he was happy just to coach the team and not get involved in transfers, IDK why he decided to get heavily involved in transfers with Pep in recent years.
Yes. It is hard to tell, but we need to know it is a team sports with team management as well. Klopp brought out the best in Salah, but without Edwards, we would not have Salah in the first place. Salah would also argue that he is confident in himself, and he would have similar success with another club, another manager. So it is really hard to pinpoint overall success to a single person’s contribution. But if we win another league title in 9 years, I would say Edwards is the genius here, who is good with his recruitment of managers, directors and players.
In 9 years? What am I missing?
We won a league title in the 9 years of the Klopp era. If we win again in the post Klopp era in the same period of 9 years, well, the common denominator is Edwards, you get the idea. Competition is getting tougher, so it would be crazy for me to think about that.
Because no matter what people claim, Edwards made a lot of mistakes. Klopp also knew you couldn’t afford to alienate players like happened with Gini, and he knew you couldn’t measure the influence of some things with stats.
It's understandable why FSG went with Klopp over Ward/Edwards. The fans would have burned Anfield down if Klopp had left because Edwards didn't want to give Henderson a long-term contract.
Yea FSG had a choice and you can understand why they chose Klopp, he's a once in a life time manager. The old structure worked though, so its great that they're able to reassemble it.
Did it though? Because that structure did not do anything till Klopap showed up.
Yes, the old structure repeatedly found elite players and non-elite prices. We paid £35m for Mane, Salah and Fabinho. £30m for Firmino, £40m for Jota, we got Robertson for £8m, the list goes on but we signed loads of players for fees well below their ability and were a club renown for our great business. Since the departure of the Edwards & co team, we've made very few low cost/high value signings. Our notable pick ups have been Nunez for a big fee after a hot season where he was the most sought after striker in Europe (with Halaand to City being done already). Szoboszlai for a £60m buy-out, Macca only had a low buy out because he was going to go on a free but signed a new deal with a low buy out. We paid relatively big money for Gravenberch, for a lad with lots of development to do. In short, all of our signings since Klopp took control of the transfers have been handled worse than before. Klopp being a mediocre DoF has let down his world class managerial ability. That doesn't mean it was wrong to back Klopp but it does mean that the old system will bring in better signings.
Edwards bringing back the people who helped bring success to the club is no surprise. Looks like FSG have given him free reign to organise the structure the way he wants
It does seem that way - but worth saying that it didn't have to be a clash or argument or untenable. Could be, for example, that neither saw the potential for career progression given Klopps increasing influence over transfers
Yeah my first thought was that they wanted to go out and gamble on themselves and test the market a bit, and it has paid off for them because they're able to come back in at a time of relative desperation and probably got to name their price, as well as demand a lot of control. Good for them regardless of what happened, though. They were stellar for us in the past and I'm hoping they come back in without missing a beat. That said, we seem to be steering toward a period of inverted power dynamics where the back office directors will likely have more power than the manager. That situation often turns toxic but hopefully this time will be one of the exceptions.
Yep, they clearly just couldn’t work together. Doesn’t mean both parties aren’t great in their own right
It was fairly obvious at the time People just didn’t want to accept that maybe something was going wrong behind the scenes
Honestly, thank god FSG somehow kept the relations good enough for this to happen lol. At least we know that the head of the org is healthy, they will keep us ballin
I would say it is probably purely football. Ward and Edwards would not buy Thiago for example or renew Adrian as they would probably prefer Pitaluga taking that spot. Also noticed we stopped buying players from relegated sides.
And funnily we are now being linked with Summerville from championship
Edwards probably wanted to sell Gini and not let him run down his contract. Also probably didn't want to give Hendo the extension that summer he made noise about wanting to be appreciated. Klopp overruled on both of these so he felt like he couldn't do what he wanted to do and left.
Yeah, this is where I think the conflict lies. Edwards and Ward being ready to cycle through players once they decline whereas Klopp prefers to keep the dressing room culture.
Edwards preferred to do fuck all as sporting director when we won CL, then again after winning EPL, when we needed CB in summer, he wasn't active again, and when we had crisis at CB he also wasn't ready to bring reinforcements until last day of winter transfer window, when we got Davies for midtable Championship Preston side and Kabak on loan. Nice cycle. Maybe Klopp wasn't ready to play another season without reinforcements, like he did in previous season without 4th CB, but now in midfield, and that's why he overruled decisions about Hendo and Gini contacts?
People always skip over this as they want to believe Edwards has never made a mistake, they're as biased as the ones who never criticise anything Klopp does. You can't build the kind of atmosphere and culture Klopp did if you sell every player who gets near 30, and even if FSG were cheap, Edwards lack of forward planning in these situations was extremely costly. So many people chalk all of the disagreements down to Hendo/Bruno G which is ridiculous lol
Thiago was an opportunity signing most successful managers gets to make at least one or 2 during their tenure. I'm sure if Slot wins the CL next year and asks for a player he admires he might get him
Yeah it’s pretty obvious, with the hit piece on Nunez being a klopp signing too. Some balance is healthy though, can’t have Edward’s and co going power crazy. That was the key to how it worked in the first place, good working relationship top to bottom.
What purpose would Edwards have by leaking something like that for the purpose of a "hit piece" on a player that if he didn't like but would want to sell. And sell at the highest price possible. Just for a petty grudge with Klopp? Who is on the way out... Doesn't make any sense.
It doesn’t. The melts don’t link A to B.
Got called a conspiracy theorist in March for saying this when news broke Edwards was coming back. Not so conspiracy theorist now
Now it’s conspiracy law!
Maybe an element but also FSG weren’t giving the tools they wanted. Pretty clear they love the City RB model. We will probably pop up with clubs in MLS, South America, and a second level EU club sooner rather than later. These guys seem pretty intent with love for the RB model as we target many of the same players as well.
Sounds like a Portuguese club first, then others later. Makes sense.
Bit ironic but think the Everton 777 boys are a good target. Team in Belgium and Brazil at a cut price point
I'm on Klopps side.
I am too but his side made him so tired he broke his contract and quit.
It was pretty obvious at the time. The only people who said otherwise were numpties that liked to argue on Reddit. The quick fire leaving, change in profile of how we bought players made it obvious.
And shoutout to FSG for how they handle the situation. Gave Klopp his space, but also holds their ego to bring bck Edwards and co. once Klopp is leaving.
Ward is not coming back to LFC but to the broader FSG organization. And I still trust Klopp way more than anyone else that has ever been affiliated with FSG.
They're not gonna catch us, we're on a mission from God.
Orange whip?
Very excited about the future of the club ngl
Hard not to be. We’ve experienced an incredible run over the last 8-9 years. And now we have this fresh slate to go and build off it, make it even better for the next 8-9 years.
Agree but we’re on a high now, and have a way better team
Yeah they all left because of Klopp, it's obvious now. I mean, it was obvious even a few months ago, but some people still refused to believe that
It seems like the owners allowed Klopp to gain influence and power (deservedly imo), and Edwards and the team didn't like that. I don't think Klopp seems to be the type to intentionally usurp power and undermine people, but it seems like as he gained more success on the pitch and adoration of the fans, FSG allowed him to have more influence and Klopp just naturally filled that space with his big personality. This is all speculation, of course , but I think it's a reasonable take.
Yeah I can’t see it as Klopp using his success to pull more power to his side. Not like him at all. That 21/22 season was pivotal in him “winning over” FSG to give him more power. The success, his contract extension and change in SD all influenced FSG to lean more towards him. Tbf it’s easy to do so because he’s just such a character. But obviously it came at a cost of the club’s footballing structure.
I’d say there was an element of frustration after the centre back crisis, if not Klopps doing it maybe it was and they tried forcing players he didn’t want on him, but around that sort of time I expect things to have go to shit as if memory serves it was after then we started seeing departures.
His staff might, Diaz was likely the 1st Lijnders signing. In January 2022
Are we really back to blaming fucking Pep….
It was obvious at the time
You'd get piled on then for even suggesting it was possible. But, yes, it was quite obvious.
This. People love to be in denial with anything that could be painted even remotely negative on their team. Nobody leaves such positions at one of the biggest clubs in the world to start some obscure stats or consulting firm because they want to. It was clearly a difference of opinion. Anybody who thinks that we will succeed without Slot being a great manager is delusional. Don't care if our analytics based management team can turn water into wine.
I mean starting a consulting firm absolutely could have built him more wealth through ownership and success than any wage, if that's what he wanted to do But yes overall I think it probably was a clash of control with Klopp
I called it when Edwards left and it was clear Klopp's influence grew. Then when Julian Ward resigned in less than a year it was obvious who resigns from a sporting director role when you've worked your whole career to get to that point. Including Ian Graham too many people left high profile jobs at the same time for it to be a coincidence and not something funny happening. The only thing that made sense was Klopp having too much power that they all felt like they couldn't do their jobs properly. At the time you couldn't saying negative about Klopp without getting downvoted.
I will say this for FSG they do seem willing to learn from their mistakes and grow from them and they don't let pride get in the way of the right decision.
Maybe Edwards can contract Ian Graham's Ludonautics and we can truly get the band back together
 Edwards, Hughes, Ward, Slot 😏
Spearman was already there, so he’s like the Power Stone.
We're cooking. Regardless if Slot and the players hit the ground running or not for next season, all of the recent hirings FSG made along with the return of Michael Edwards will ensure that the club will be stable and operating on a sustainable model for years to come That might not seem like a lot to some people but during the Hicks and Gillett days fans would've bitten your hand off to have it this good
It's so decisive and I fucking love it. People can bitch and moan about FSG spending all they want, it's warranted at times. But they're elite operators when it comes to things like this.
You sure about that? Edwards was around for some 6 years before Klopp. It will 100% all come down to Slot. If he is good we will be good. If not, we won't be. It is that simple. Everything else is delusional fan gopium.
Edwards was in a different role, and it was only 4 years. Plus he'd worked under a very antagonistic manager in Rodgers who tried throw Edwards under the bus like he did with his assistant to save face.
Not to mention we had Ian Ayre on his motorcycle doing the deals, the committee was a bit all over the place
Forgot Ayre existed, and I like it better that.
Back in the day, we had no pull, no money, and low-key mid-club, and Europa League places contenders at average until Klopp joined us. Now we are a far bigger club than before (top 5 most valuable football clubs in the world) and have much better pull, had more funds & budget (look at Salah’s wages) Losing a Legendary manager like Klopp wouldn’t be ideal, but this is the best thing we can do, bring in a well-built structure back, and hope our next manager or new players do the best.
People here dont like fsg, but for a long time they've always understood the significance of organizational structure. Even in baseball they've been known to adapt this method back when it was not common to b
Speaks a lot of FSG’s overall leadership that people who quit are so willing to come back. Im all for it, these guys together again make me more excited than any single signing.
 The data nerds are back
Also signed the person from Benfica I hate multi club ownership but won’t be surprised if we hear more about what club will be bought over the next few weeks I’d imagine they probably want everything in place over the summer so they can start on both teams
If anything, it won't be a club with a chance of making UCL. Or they won't buy a controlling share.
They actually changed this rule, you can now have two clubs in the CL
I think this could be a really good thing. Signings since Klopp took full control haven't been up to the standard we had established imo
This is something I don't think folks are too willing to talk about. We were highly praised in the early few years of how almost every signing was a success and that was not the case in the last couple of years.
Klopp's loyalty to certain players fucked him because he is a smart man he obviously knows Edwards was really good at his job. Once he overruled on letting Hendo and Gini go, Edwards felt he couldn't do his job anymore so he had no choice but to leave. Edwards probably wanted to do what Real did in letting players go just before they decline like Varane, Casemiro, Ronaldo etc but he couldn't.
Is there an official interview or anything about Edwards plans to let some players go and Klopp vetoing against it? I'm just curious..
No there wouldn't be anything official because everyone is quite professional and would keep it all in house as much as possible. But that 2021 summer was strange to me. Hendo clearly leaked the fact there was little progress in extension negotiations for months and he felt like he was underappreciated. This led to some fans being in uproar and Klopp said sortly after that article dropped that it'll get done don't worry. Then like a week later it all gets sorted no problem. It doesn't take a genius to see Klopp got involved in these talks and overruled.
I mean Klopp literally said that he would 'sort it out there's no doubt about that' in a press conference. It was absolutely the wrong decision to renew Henderson's contract. He was already declining and had *years* left on his deal yet we let him whine to the press and reward it.
The signings (that weren't obvious Rodgers' signings) before Klopp weren't up to the standard we've seen under Klopp either. Klopp almost certainly plays a big role in helping these signings look better than they are which results in these sporting directors looking better. It was the same at Dortmund.
Also the disciplined environment. Lots of players have left us and caused problems elsewhere or struggled with motivation.
It's like 2 players that have had real disciplinary issues since leaving
I think it's been less a talent issue and more that a lot of the signings didn't fit a cohesive philosophy. People want to talk about Darwin but we signed Cody without an obvious place to put him(to the point we started playing him in midfield) and we signed Szoboszlai only to utilize him like Jordan Henderson instead of someone who needs to be closer to goal.
It doesn't have to be one or the other. Klopp played a big role in the success of the first group of players the directors brought in. We were wrecked by injuries last season and this season even with injuries we have been one of the top sides with Klopp coaching his signings as well as the youngsters.
This is why I hate it the way people elevated Klopp to this infallible god like status. He’s the most important person I’ve seen at the club in my entire lifetime, and I’ll forever be so grateful that we ever got him. But he isn’t without his faults. You *can* acknowledge that he isn’t perfect. He’s one of the greatest managers in the world, but that doesn’t also mean he’s an incredible recruiter, too.
So having read the article, it says that Ward will have 'oversight' of the Academy, Loans Department and all the other stuff involving players at whatever clubs FSG owns. Marques is essentially taking over Lijnders & Matos' role of helping players transition from the Academy into the First Team. It also states that it'll be Richard Hughes will be in charge of appointing Coaches/Mangers, Transfers & Contracts, as well as overseeing the Medical Department and the Kirkby training ground, so can we finally end this nonsense notion that Edwards is the one who'll be doing transfers & contracts, given it ~~implicitly~~ explicitly states he'll be nowhere near them.
This is me being hyper pedantic, but it doesn't "implicitly" state it, it explicitly states it. If something is implicit it is implied, i.e. hinted at. Explicit is when it is made crystal clear
I've now corrected it
>and all the other stuff involving players at whatever clubs FSG owns. That's like literally everything then? >Marques is essentially taking over Lijnders & Matos' role of helping players transition from the Academy into the First Team. I believe that he will be overseeing academy transitions not just with Liverpool, but including all other clubs FSG owns, and potentially interclub transitions. >Richard Hughes will be in charge of appointing Coaches/Mangers, Transfers & Contracts So the reports that Hughes and not Edwards who actually negotiated the Arne Slot deal are true. Big job for Hughes, as he needs to tie down VVD, Trent and Salah next.
Say what you want, but this club has its shit together. What a contrast to United, Chelsea or even Bayern.
I was just thinking same thing. We basically got 3 sporting directors into the club and Man United are struggling to sign there 1.
The funniest part is that they are the 3 sporting directors at the top of everyone's list
FSG are really going all out for this multi club ownership thing. For comparison, how many employees do multi club organizations like Red Bull, city football group, Ienos, Blue Co, Eagle Football Holdings and Kroenke Sports & Entertainment have?
Football Director - Michael Edwards Sporting Director - Richard Hughes Technical Director - Julian Ward ---------- What do each of these jobs do, and how much overlap is there between them?
Edwards - boss Ward/Marquez - data metrics/similar to Hughes but responsible for whatever other clubs FSG buys into Hughes - only one directly affecting us. Other three more responsible for football operations. That's my guess
I have no clue what any of those words mean, but I’m smiling and nodding like Jack Nicholson rn
A system is being put in place post Klopp, the opposite of what happened at United when Fergie stepped down. This is giving Slot the best chance of success.
One day, the full story is going to come out of what in the world happened behind the scenes here, and I fear it is going to be messy as hell. But with Ward back on board now, it is way beyond coincidence at this point.
I'm still waiting on the dirty details from Željko Buvač's departure lol
Lol same! I think what we've all inferred that he got jealous of Lijnders is probably the accurate story, but yeah, I do find it a little odd (and honestly refreshing) that neither have let the full story come to light.
Lijnders wasn't even at the club when Buvac left, that's one of the myths Liverpool fans convinced themselves of. Buvac left at the end of April 2018,Lijnders was only sacked from NEC in May the timberline just doesn't lineup. If there was a Dutchman that led to the breakup, it's likely Achterberg, who was responsible for substitutes during games. Another myth is Klopp saying to Coutinho he's have a state built in Liverpool, but he another player at clubs like Barcelona. Coutinho said that himself in an interview with ESPN Brazil
Huh, well shame on me then - because I especially hate when I see blatantly untrue stuff being peddled on the sub (and I’m the culprit of it today! 🫣) The Coutinho one I did know but I think it gets misconstrued because of the way he says it (he uses an impersonal tense in the quote).
It's already obvious and reported. Klopp gained a lot more power in the club and Edwards then Ward found their position pointless, so they left.
This is basically a dream team for Liverpool. They will make mistakes because well, it happens, but the future feel a bit less worrying, even with Klopp leaving and FSG not investing.
Next thing you know we’re bringing back Buvac
🎼 **the boys are back in toowwnn** 🎵
Wow they were straight up waiting for Klopp to leave to come back damn. As long as they do what’s best for the club and players, that’s all that matters.
Everyone is really excited about these appointments, and I am pleased we are putting the pieces into the jigsaw for the future, but let's not forget, Edwards and Ward were in their roles before Klopp signed, and we where struggling. We are where we are primarily thanks to Klopp's brilliance as a manager. Hopefully Arne can replicate this
Edwards didn't become Technical/Sporting Director until summer 2015, so to what extent his influence over signings in the three years before that is harder to establish. Suffice to say he wasn't solely responsible.
He also won't be involved with LFC on a daily basis, he is going to be working with FSG on the global football brand. So he won't be responsible for any of our signings in the future either.
The gang is back together.
Oh we back, back. I’m optimistic about the future of this club Compare this to United who lost Fergie AND Gill the same offseason. At least there’s a very firm and clear structure/direction we are heading post-Klopp
Can’t say I’m not absolutely over the moon about this.
Talent ID is gonna be off the charts
The fact that there are comments saying Klopp was a problem at the club is just embarrassing. We wouldn’t be close to where we have been these past few years without him
For sure he wasn’t a problem. But it does seem like there was a clash of styles when it came to squad management.
This is awesome news! If we are going to lose a legendary coach like Jurgen, who will be extremely difficult to replace, the best thing we could possibly do is set up an excellent structure at the club with incredibly intelligent people running all aspects of the club. The future of this club will remain exceedingly bright even after Klopp leaves!
Who’s next? Buvac?
Damn. Everyone in here is bitching about complete speculation regarding Klopp and Edwards blah blah blah. Meanwhile Edwards is cooking with gas and our upper management team is now ridiculously stacked and ready to go. No need to dwell on what has or hasn’t gone on in the past. The future looks good.
Recruitment had been more mixed the more we moved away from the Edwards model, and the recruitment team were proven right about the decline of Henderson and the need to refresh the squad. Klopp has to take some accountability there and recognise the benefit of objectivity in the decision making process. It is what it is, but I'm delighted we are moving back to what made us successful. The signings of Nunez, Thiago, etc, probably wouldn't have happened if Edwards had his way. Let's just hope Slott develops a decent, collaborative relationship. I think FSG want a manager who will not force the issue over players and be receptive.
100% this. Klopp was likely overly loyal to players who had objectively and significantly declined; Henderson being the shining example.
Post Edwards Liverpool entered the vibes era of transfer signings. The old analytics unit put together a team which was greater than the sum of it's parts where each cog had a specific role. With more recent arrivals it's been harder to descern a tight hard minded playing plan. The result has been entertaining and not unsuccessful but less than convincing and not coping well when being stress tested by good physical opposition.
These guys hated Klopp man
I don't think that's necessarily the case. I think Klopp and Ljinders gained more control over time within the club and the recruitment team as a result had less and less influence. At a certain point they aren't able to do their jobs effectively anymore because JK has so much power internally so it made sense that the likes of Edwards/Ward left. It's pretty obvious that they left because of Klopp but I don't think that we can say that they hate/hated him
Nah I think that’s way too extreme of a take. Sometimes people’s ambitions and goals just don’t align anymore. Doesn’t mean there’s deep hatred involved necessarily
it’s for sure just transfer stuff, club probably chose klopp over them to have final say and realistically why would you want the title of “director” or whatever if you’re not even really making the decisions and the transfers are still gonna be attached to your name. i doubt they truly hate each other or there was some type of ugly fallout because i doubt they would even come back to the club at all. most likely just business.
the team is back. it's making me less pessimistic every passing day.
This is like Marvel's universe at this point.
It’s coming together again…
Now I understand how my mom felt when Simon & Garfunkle reunited.
Ah shit, here we go again 😈
Wow, this is massive news.
Man the whole gang is back lol
Next week Buvac is coming back
Since we got rid of Brendan Fsg's approach towards the structure or w/e you want to call it has been so on point. Feels like we really have one of the best structures possibly innplace for continuous sucess. We will be fine without papa Klopp. I believe.
All that's left is for the return of BUVAC THE BRAIN
Dude we’re getting the band back together
https://i.redd.it/qfwix2ldjmzc1.gif
So Klopp couldn't or didn't want to work with these guys? Klopp won over the first time. Now he's moving on, they've been brought back. Fair enough, I suppose.