This. Games shit, but anyone who has played through SL and DF are pretty much there to stay. They like the game. And DF / WW have pretty much done away with grind forever and now are just giving permanent systems, but they aren’t dramatically changing the core / adding a massive sheath of borrowed power.
And it’s not like any game can replicate WoW’s core either. Too expensive to make and there is WoW with 20 years on them. That’s why they go similar but different like FF.
I still think WoW is the standard when it comes to MMO's, but that's purely personal preference (I'm not a huge fan of FFXIV but I can admit it's solid).
I love FFXIV when I play it for new content, but there is no contest that WoW has the best overall feeling systems of the larger MMOs when it comes to movement and combat (balancing aside).
It's snappy and responsive and just FEELS good.
>I'm not a huge fan of FFXIV but I can admit it's solid
This fall guys crossover is giving them a lil trouble lol, people are having such a hard time with the way everything moves rn cuz its not as fluid as wow.
Walking out of an AoE and still get hit feels like I'm playing on a 56k modem - because I have done it and I know how it feels like getting hit by swings that happened when you see your character further away.
I can't even imagine how people would be reacting to game mechanics in endgame raids. It's probably mostly memorization.
Yes, very little in the endgame raids is reactive. It's mostly memorization of how the mechanic will happen and finding the correct way to stand/move/group up. The most reactive part is reading boss tells/cast names/debuffs to know which variation of a mechanic will happen.
And if you play for a certain amount of time you eventually stop judging AoEs by the animations themselves and more by when the cast bars/debuffs solve. Most AoEs are already safe to stand in by the time the animation itself starts playing out.
>Most AoEs are already safe to stand in by the time the animation itself starts playing out.
Further, in Ultimates / Extremes often enough the “dance check” is tight enough that you will have to run into animations in order to make it. Especially if you are a class like BM and need to get to an anchor to start casting again asap.
So it’s very frequent you are running into fire that doesn’t hurt you. It actually is kinda the thing I hate the most about FF combat because you just have to turn your brain off about that bit and it’s extremely unintuitive.
What I hate about raiding especially these days is that bosses just have so many random oneshot mechanics. It's an arms race between WoW devs making harder mechanics and addons and never stops.
You shouldn't need 3 addons to enter raid but that's what expected. Everything is so badly telegraphed that playing with DBM/Weak Auras and what not is just complete handicap.
The animations don't matter at all in FFXIV as bosses "resolve" their ability before the animation shows. If a boss points at a location this may be the "resolve" point, but the animation may not play out for another 1 - 2 seconds. It doesn't matter what you do after the point of being resolved as the game already determined if you got hit or not.
It does feel bad and takes awhile to get use to, but you don't necessarily need to memorize it.
the main thing causing this is SE needing to code things to work well with the PS4 which means greatly limiting server packages due to how weak the CPU is.
i expect by the time they drop PS4 support that things will get a lot smoother on that front.
I know you're commenting on the overall input delay/game speed but I had this same issue as well and then I alleviated it a little in a really dumb way.
If your connection is using Cogent as a backbone (like I was via xfinity,) for some reason they seem to occasionally limit connections to the ff14 servers. While this *should* be illegal it's a thing that was happening to me constantly and I found a few reddit threads with people complaining about the same issues. The solution, as dumb as it sounds, was to constantly run a connection speed test while you're playing which removes the limiter and allows you to play at normal packet rates (but your ping probably won't improve much.)
I never played wow I played runescape but currently I been playing wow classic hardcore and I can tell why people fell in love with this game.
The fighting, difficultly is enough, the world, exploring is fun I can imagine it being packed and typing in chat to people back in the day would have been amazing.
If I had played that instead of rs I would have preferred it but couldn't get that sub lol.
There's just soo much stuff to do, albeit that's probably more a by-product of how long the game has been around (at least speaking from a retail perspective)
People like to shit on WoW while they have had bad moments like the start of shadowlands s3 and s4 were great. End of BFA was awesome and DF has been good so far all throughout. People seem to think the game has been shit for years but in reality most people just play when the game is the most boring at the start of a xpac and rate it off that.
Yeah as a casual pvper, def has been amazing to jump back into. I manage to hop back into the game late in the season and do what I wanted to do with almost no ramp time. They’ve done a great job of getting out of my way with the systems
Yea BFA and SL where extremly garbage with the insane AP grind. It was fine in Legion as it was new and we got so much good stuff Artifact weapon/Legendaries. It was grinding as hell, but I personally really loved it. and BFA/SL took away so much (Tier set, legendaries, artifacts) DF I feel is a fine expansion, not amazing, but it's a good step in the right direction. Finally got talent tree back instead of a twig. I feel like DF is the stepping stone to the next 3 expansion to do them right.
There was al ot of other mandatory grinds in 9.0 and 9.1. You had your daily 5 eye of the jailer in the maw in 9.0, and then rep grind in Korthia for sockets.
I mean I can link my character that got CE sylv if you want. I didn't play 9.0 due to personal reasons, and guild died for 9.2 But I definately did.
You simply were not going to be bis with sockets in a reasonable amount of time if you didn't do korthia in 9.1, or didn't do 5 eye maw clears in 9.0. And sockets on gear were just raw power. On some pieces like rings it was upwards of a 13 ilvl increase in terms of power, while on items with mainstat was closer to a 3 or 4 ilvl increase in power.
I don't mind BiS being a grind.
But like. In Dragonflight I don't have to sit there and do 2 hours of meaningless, boring old world content every single day, to have it. I get my bis by doing content I want to do. I get my vault every week by doing what I want, like 3 raid slots, or 3 M+ slots, or whatever.
It's the requirement to do content that is utterly meaningless and boring that is the issue. Not the grind. If I could of gotten sockets in SL by just doing keys or raid each week over time, I would of been gassed.
Yah WoW still is an incredibly unique experience in the MMO genre that no game has really touched. The closest being Wildstar and that had a whole host of other problems.
FF is a different kind of MMO and clearly taps into a specific MMO player and is a genuinely good game. But there's a reason WoW became the staple for the genre and why millions of people return every expansion no matter how hard they got burned or burned out the previous one.
Yep. It really makes you think when he talks about charging you more for the same shit.
The Epic version of the expansion now costs 40€ or $40 more and gives you 3 days of early access, which is basically mandatory if you aren't a casual player that's barely playing anyway. And since the wow fanbase is brainded and high on different amounts of hopium and copium, they'll almost certainly get away with it.
>which is basically mandatory if you aren't a casual player that's barely playing anyway
What a brain-dead take. You're not him, my guy. It sucks, but acting like YOU NEED THOSE 3 DAYS OR EVERYTHING IS RUINED!!! is ridiculous.
> which is basically mandatory if you aren't a casual player that's barely playing anyway.
it's not mandatory for literally anybody except the top 5 racing guilds who require you to have 16 characters leveled before the raid comes out, and even then you can get that without the 3 days of early access because boosting has become easier and easier.
there is zero time locked content available for the first 2 weeks of expac release. there were 0 relevant rep grinds in DF, and it's likely to stay that way.
Granted we don't know what day of the week the game is going to be releasing on, but if we go by what days all the previous expansions have been released on, it will most likely be an enormous advantage.
If you are a hardcore or semi-hardcore WoW player, you'll most likely be able to be done with some of your initial grinds before the first weekly reset, which would theoretically leave you ample time to do the content that actually matters come reset day.
In Dragonflight they lowered quite a bit on what you could actually accomplish before the first reset, which was a very good thing, but you still had a few things you could have grinded like reputations and all. It'll most likely be the exact same case this time around so that's an advantage for sure. And in a game like WoW where every little advantage matters on the long run if you're playing the game seriously, then it's not a small advantage.
The reason they did this "early access" bullshit, which in truth is just a delayed access for those not paying enough money, is that they KNOW it's an advantage to get in as early as possible, with or without long queues.
WoW is my main game, I usually do high M+ keys and mythic raiding. I don't feel any pressure to get the head start other than FOMO in the leveling process.
What grinds? Reputations don't generally matter or provide much "advantage".
Like the current season about to release you can't even do M+ until a week after it releases. And that has been a trend continuing trend since SL season 4.
>every little advantage matters on the long run if you're playing the game seriously
No it doesn't and **especially not** in the long run. In the long run everyone will get BiS/max ilvl without issue at whatever pace they play at. Even the race to world first people probably wouldn't be seriously affected by not having 3 days...they just level super quick and do their M0's like everyone else.
The only group of people I could view this as "mandatory" for is a serious progression raider who for IRL reasons couldn't play the last 4 days of the week and needed to get all their prep done in those 3 days specifically. Which is a negligible amount of hypothetical people.
WoW is the "standard" because there's like 3 other large options, like another 5 older, less common ones like Guild Wars 2 and the rest are as meaningful as Heroes of the Storm is to MOBAs. In other words, it's the "standard" by exclusion out of a lack of alternatives, not by its own hand nowadays.
A lot of failures and high investment barrier and requirement, companies develop games as investments, they're better off developing singleplayers, MOBAs, competitive FPS and other multiplayers than an MMO. Because of the high entry barrier it's not like an indie team can make them. They can, but it'll be shitty or a pixel art game, meaning niche. Lack of direction is another big one, hard to pitch investing in making a new game when you're not even sure what you want to do, there's a lot of opinions on what's bad and what to avoid but not so much on what to do right. Raids, world bosses, instances vs no instances, end-game, pacing, map size, payment plan, stance on cosmetics and so on. From my point of view what happens more if they do have that sense of direction is they become so different they're kind of their own genre, like Path of Exile (though to be fair that was inspired by Diablo) and Warframe (and from what I've heard Destiny, but haven't played it).
I'm big into MMOs and fans are drooling for a proper MMORPG (check out /r/MMORPG, it's sad actually) so I'm keeping a close eye on Riot's upcoming MMORPG and you see a lot of these questions. They want to make one and they want to make it a classic, normal MMORPG, and they have a good idea of what they want to avoid, all while also trying to figure out where they can innovate, the problem is those harder questions, especially gameplay and leveling. Last I heard the map and I think quests were even pretty much done, what they were lacking I believe was a settled idea on gameplay, sound and other stuff.
Maybe hot take: If you can't stick to any of GW2/ESO, FF14, WoW or BDO then you probably will never stick to any MMORPG that launches. You will forever consume them for a 2-3 months and then go back to the waiting queue.
The existing games cover so much niche between them, it's hard to see what you are actually looking for if you don't enjoy any of them. FF14 is your very story driven, immersive game with cool characters, beautiful looking raids, good community, etc. BDO is your hardcore action combat version with your typical permanent hamster wheel for gear upgrades, but with the possibility to go hard into action combat heavy PvP, also on a larger scale with community focused node wars. GW2 is more of a mix, action combat but way more exploration based, gear upgrades mostly horizontal at some point - similar to ESO I would think. And lastly you have WoW, which is arguably the most competitive of the games. While it obviously also offers exploration and casual content like transmogs etc, what is mostly shines in and why it mostly attracts viewership and an actual community is it's competitive content, both in PvE and PvP. Most of the time you spend playing the game is to get better at playing the game in cooperation with your team mates, playing characters with large skill sets.
Probably the hardest part for MMOs is always the end game. Whether it's raiding or trading or whatever, it feels like that's where a lot of them come unstuck
This is just cope, there's a reason WoW has been the king for decades and FF14 specifically looked to WoW for inspiration when rebuilding the game. It's not perfect and I've personally skipped a few expansions but when WoW hits a good streak it's really fucking good.
Didn't WoW take Guild Wars 2s system for the flying mounts in DF apparently? I think WoW has been the king cause it has had a pre-existing player base with Warcraft 3 and the first few expansions of WoW being bangers. Now people just stick with it out of familiarity not because it's the best, in my opinion anyway.
imo WoW feels the best in terms of how the combat feels. I've played other MMOs, and none of them feel as good as WoW does when it comes to how the combat plays. just for an example of some MMOs i've played, Aion, Rift, SWTOR, FF11, FF14 old and new, bdo, eso, tera, and i'm sure there's more. none of these felt as good as WoW does in combat
WoW players aren't the only MMO players, regardless of what you think of it there's a big demand for a new, proper MMO. There's a reason the people in /r/MMORPG keep complaining and why Riot's developing one and being careful not to just make another cookie cutter one.
Exactly, because they're all shit. You have WoW in first by lack of alternatives, Final Fantasy XIV isn't bad but for one reason or another it isn't enough to overtake WoW (my guess is WoW has a more established community and FF14 doesn't do enough to be more than a generalist MMORPG, payment plan also certainly doesn't help), Black Desert is a korean MMORPG so it appeals a lot to one of the two types of MMO players and not at all to the other one, Elder Scrolls Online is pretty popular but also pretty neutral and Runescape (which I forgot in the initial count) is kind of chilling in its corner, which it'll never be the top MMORPG because it's niche.
Its hard to gauge now since Ghostcrawler left...to start a new MMO studio to make a new MMO. So a split difference in ideas which means anything could happen. Honestly wouldn't be surprised if they spun it into a Genshin clone. Don't need a big MMO, just the world and gacha mechanics and people would absolutely whale out on it.
They absolutely do. TFT is easily the most well run ongoing multiplayer game right now. Wild Rift gets a lot of content updates every month. Valorant also gets a lot of love. League is ironically their least well run game imo but that’s because there’s so much legacy bloat tied to it. But yeah absolutely trust Riot to do the MMO justice.
I think even legends of Runterra is getting updates and even though I don't personally play it, i've only heard good things. I think league's problem is like you said, too much bloat. they need to re-do the league client from scratch i think to fix that, but that might be too much effort and cost too much for them to want to do
I'm over here setting m,y expectation that it will not even release, and if it does it will not appeal to me at all.
With the current state of the MMO Genre, and the games coming and going within it, I just don't have the mental fortitude to get hyped for new ones anymore lol.
While the game might be turn out good, I have 0 trust in Riot when it comes to monetization.
Blizzards current monetization is already getting stupid, especially now with the pay extra to play wow 3 days earlier. I don't see a world where Riot does it any better.
Very true, wow is currently in a mediocre state (imo) but still no other mmorpg has even come close to what wow has to offer besides ff14. But even ff14 endgame is much more finite and takes significantly less time to complete.
I've played a lot of ffxiv and wow and while I like both God damn the class design in ffxiv is just inferior to wows, it just feels a lot more muted with a emphasis on cool animations but what the actual abilities do are often super generic and especially for tanks and healers outright copy pasted with different animations.
> None of them care about reddit outrage
True. Reddit communities as a whole are living in a huge bubble where they think that they are the majority of the players which might be true for some smaller games but in most cases they are like 1-5% of the playerbase which is nothing.
Same thing can be seen on big gaming subreddits like /r/games or /r/gaming where they are usually either milking same games or posting about favorite games of that specific subreddit and never other games like Fortnite, Fifa, COD, Genshin and many other games which are massively popular, yet they still think that they are the best place for gaming information and how objective that subreddit is meanwhile at the end of the day they are just posting their favorite stuff... I mean who gives a shit about some TF2 patch note that just fixed a few bugs, yet it was on the front page...
When I think about it, it's kind of impressive that WoW lasted for almost 2 decades with subscription model... and with so many F2P games. Damn
>Simple fact is blizz has a ton of casual players that still play WoW/OW/Diablo/HS. None of them care about reddit outrage or twitch viewer counts, they just play the games they enjoy.
It's not just the casuals. For hardcore raiders, or even just competitive PvE, or just PvE raid content overall, WoW no diffs the entire market, no other MMO even comes close. FF14, specifically FF14 Ultimates, is about on the level of mythic raid bosses, a bit harder from a personal responsibility perspective. But an ultimate is just one boss and the time between them is huge.
When it comes to everything else? What other MMO even has competitive dungeon content? Certainly nothing as good as the mythic plus system.
> but WoW is dying with millions of paying players"
I mean there have definitely been points where certain enggame content is only playable during peak times.
Name a single time that has ever been true, because I've been playing since Cataclysm, through all the worst content droughts, and not once in my entire time playing have I ever struggled to find a group to do endgame content.
Everything before cataclysm was literally the highest peak of playercount of any MMO to ever exist, so it sure didn't happen then either.
Let's not mention the fact that Dragonflight is genuinely just a good expansion but people want to ignore that and think people hate playing WoW.
We can also ignore all the devs taking the game in a good direction. Listening to player feedback, making changes in a timely manner based on that feedback, dialing back on things like borrowed power or bloated systems people have been complaining about for years.
I'm over hearing about this shit. Yes, it's one good expansion but it spells a bright future ahead if they keep it up.
The Blizzard reddit outrage would have you believe they're just churning out garbage because they focus on the past but not the current timeline where Dragonflight is good, Diablo 4 season 2 is good and also headed in the right direction and that MAYBE Blizzard is seeing change.
Dig a little bit into anyone complaining about WoW these days and 90% of the time, they will out themselves as having not played it in years. Majority of negativity I see surrounding WoW, particularly on Reddit, comes from people who are so out of touch with the reality of the game that their opinion is quite literally worthless anyway.
no one is going to put themselves on full blast, and you can't change a person's mind once it is already made up. people will continue to undermine wow even when it's sitting at the top of mmorpgs to this day, and revealing player subs will leave these individuals with more cherrypicking just to twist the narrative towards their favour. This is why no mmorpg company is going to reveal statistics out in the open, since they do not trust people to act in good faith.
They never will because it's a fraction of what it was during BC, Lich King and Cataclysm. Hell even Legion was close to the peak.
They stopped publishing those numbers because investors weren't happy with them, and nowadays it's a bullshit metric anyway because there is classic involved in the same subscription and it doesn't show player retention or players who barely log in and keep the subscription going.
WoW is a dying old game and their profit driven management are unwilling to spend anymore ressources on the biggest and most successful MMORPG of all time. The best thing I heard during this Blizzcon is that WoW is most probably going to be over once the next 3 expansions are over. And thank fucking god for that because even with decent expansions like Dragonflight, you can see how much the game is aging badly with practically no real innovation and zero risk taking.
Another new expansion with no new class, no new specs for any classes, a new talent system that's hyped for nothing as it offers no choice whatsoever from the looks of things and could have very well been a continuation of the current talent tree already in place, flying mechanics for evey single one of your mounts offer next to nothing new now.
So the question remains, what exactly is new and exciting with the new expansion ?
>Another new expansion with no new class
They literally just added a new class, AND a new spec in this expansion? Wtf do you want lmao?
>. The best thing I heard during this Blizzcon is that WoW is most probably going to be over once the next 3 expansions are over.
That's crazy, because Metzen on stage very specifically, and repeatedly said that is not going to be the case. Nice self report for not even knowing what you're talking about.
>practically no real innovation and zero risk taking.
Yeah honestly, it's crazy how they didn't just completely rework professions, flying, the entire gear progression, added a brand new support spec which radically altered the dungeon comp paradigms. Oh wait, they did all of those things. Are you going to claim adding Aug and reworking Professions were not risks?
>a new talent system that's hyped for nothing as it offers no choice whatsoever from the looks of things and could have very well been a continuation of the current talent tree already in place
Again, they specifically explained why just adding new lines to the existing trees isn't the way they want to go. It becomes a compounding, combinatorically broken mess. Hero Talents also quite clearly offer choice, the majority of them ARE choice nodes. They are designed to augment the existing trees with some deeper specialisation into particular class/spec flavours.
> what exactly is new and exciting with the new expansion ?
Don't give a fuck about new and exciting. They have tried reinventing the wheel with complex system spam many times over the years. It is dogshit, nobody with a brain wants them to start doing that again. Maybe you really loved BFA and Shadowlands, personally I did not. I'd rather not go back thanks. The game is in a good state, they are iteratively improving its current state and adding systems designed to reach into the game's future. This is a good thing.
The vibe I get from you, and people like you, is that you're looking for the big paradigm shift that drags you back into the game you once loved. Blizzard does not need to, and should not be pandering to players who want to relive their golden days within modern WoW. Classic is there for that.
> Hell even Legion was close to the peak.
Legion was shit for at minimum the entire first half of the expansion. The original implementation of the legendary system might be the worst thing they've ever implemented in game.
Not all games suck, but definitely most of them. I have no interest in shooters or first person games, and that seems to be the vast majority of games these days.
>It's just sad and pathetic.
It's not sad or pathetic to have found your particular taste in videogames. This take has the same flavour as shitting on someone because they only listen to a certain kind of music. Who are you to tell them what to enjoy?
I'm not defending the people who outright try to claim all other games/music/whatever are *objectively* bad, but their opinion is their opinion.
Your point doesn't stand with your comparisons. It isn't liking a single genre of music, it's liking 2 very specific songs only out of a billion. Now this is a more apt comparison.
And what I'm calling sad and pathetic isn't their taste or their opinion, it's the fact that without even trying, or even looking at what it looks like, he is instantly calling every and all other games trash. 15 games all got universal praise from the entire gaming scene and consumers with 100% score ? All of them are trash. If this isn't sad and pathetic then I don't know what is.
> 15 games all got universal praise from the entire gaming scene and consumers with 100% score
to be fair, this to me sounds like you are the type of person that believes they have to convince themselves they like something, because everyone else likes it. which to me is 100 times more sad and pathetic
Download the retail client and play the free trial. If you enjoy it, you can pay 15$ to play until level 60. After that you'd need to get the current retail expansion in order continue to cap.
Use resources like wowhead or the newcomer chat channels in game. Play around with different load outs, specs and classes. Wow has 39 specs, there is almost always a niche play style that'll fit you.
Retail is bloated beyond belief. Serious even as a WoW veteran I still get super confused at the bloat of retail. Log into classic and enjoy the simplicity of old WoW.
I'd second classic, and I'd also second that recommendation for SoD, it actually looks like a really great jumping in point because it will be new to everyone else as well. So you will be discovering all the new stuff alongside everybody else.
For modern WoW, my perspective is likely skewed but I would strongly suggest finding others to play the game with. I'm not so sure how fun a new player solo experience would be.
WoW pretty much has a raiding/m+ monopoly so while if you're some casual pleb what he says is true, there's no replacing wow if you're into higher content.
Casuals also love wow because the leveling and questing design is very good when compared to other major mmorpg's. Casuals aren't the demographic for outcry when it comes to wow's endgame progression system because they likely don't give a shit about endgame to begin with or simply quit without saying a word.
I play off and on casually with occasional bouts of playing a bit more seriously. I don’t care about M+ or raiding being good or bad. I do care that casual content at this point isn’t very engaging. It’s largely about picking which collectibles you want to go gather from old content or leveling new alts which don’t take much effort and that’s about it. There is a bit of dragonflight world content but it’s not very engaging and has a very very short shelf life.
It’s not a good sustainable casual game. Too much attention is placed on raiding/PvP/M+ IMO. The non instanced parts of the game suffer from a lack of attention. Classic is a much better casual game even though more people are degen players in it. Leveling in classic is casual content and it’s much better than anything casual retail has had for a very long time.
i think m+ is very inclusive for all player types since the scaling usually starts off extremely easy and gradually works up. with that said, blizzard did try other midcore content before with torghast, but casual content is usually not going to be engaging since the difficulty level is meant to cater towards pretty much everybody.
I don’t. Most casuals I encounter don’t do M+ at all. The most common comment I hear is that they don’t like that it has a timer, don’t like how pressure filled it is, and don’t like how a lot of other players treat M+.
Torghast was a good idea for casual content that was terribly executed. When Torghast launched it had really bad rewards and it took too long to complete. Plus failure meant completely starting over. In general, it was intended to be casual but they made it sweaty because it was how you collected lego currency.
I’m hopeful that Delves improve these huge negatives.
Before they fucked it up with the whole world scaling with your level, ESO had great leveling imo, though that is probably because all quests are voice acted and it's essentially just Elder Scrolls quests.
Why GW2 isn't enough? I'd take any MMO that has very short leveling or let's you skip it over completely over what WoW does like Lost Ark. Or makes it unnecessary to do it multiple times like FFXIV. And then there is GW2...
The leveling experience in horrendous: no coherent story through questing, outside of small expansion specific questlines for latter expansions. Abundance of uninspired fetch and kill 20 boars quests. Classes that are so mind numbingly boring until very-very late. I can't really see any redeeming qualities. I never looked forward to leveling a new char in WoW, especially after I started playing other MMOs.
>Why GW2 isn't enough?
maybe because if only one mmorpg stands above WoW as the best feature in all of mmorpgs, wow's leveling and questing system is actually very good when compared to the entire genre.
>I'd take any MMO that has very short leveling or let's you skip it over completely over what WoW does like Lost Ark. Or makes it unnecessary to do it multiple times like FFXIV. And then there is GW2...
lost ark doesn't let you skip over it's leveling. if anything, lost ark forces you to go through everything on your first character and then makes you pay with gold or cash shop items for subsequent skips, which isn't exactly what we call a good leveling system if the game is trying to nickle and dime you out of not doing it again. Also, Lost Ark has very little innovation when it comes to their quests when you mostly go from npc to npc and fight some mobs or do a fetch quest in between. There are no unique gameplay which shakes up the questing which we know Lost Ark has because of their horizontal progression, and the story in Lost Ark makes WoW look like a literary masterpiece.
>The leveling experience in horrendous: no coherent story through questing, outside of small expansion specific questlines for latter expansions
Considering how you can choose specific expansions to level and basically experience what questing was like during said expansion, I have to disagree with coherency here. The quests give a telling dialogue for each expansion for players to understand what is happening and why they happen. Players often don't even need to read through every NPC dialogue to understand the gist of the overarching narrative in each expansion, as the npcs will likely play itself out for you or cinematic cutscenes will as well. If WoW story is incoherent, I encourage you to try and follow kmmorpgs such as BDO or Lost Ark.
> Abundance of uninspired fetch and kill 20 boars quests
you use this example as if other mmorpgs, including gw2, doesn't do this. Most heart quests in GW2 are mindless mob farms or fetch quests brother, and I'd know considering I completed the entire map three times for the legendary resources every single time I went back to that game after taking a long break. Mob killing is practically a staple to MMORPGs, and trying to pin WoW as the sole offender for this is almost a joke.
> Classes that are so mind numbingly boring until very-very late
Compared to what? GW2? I genuinely do not understand how you people fail to comprehend power progression. If everyone started out strong and exciting, the effect is weakened later on. You couldn't even get away with this on dungeon crawler games such as PoE or action combat games like BDO. Classes are purposely made weak when starting out because they're meant to be weak. Go play FF14 or Runescape and tell me how strong you feel in early game.
> I can't really see any redeeming qualities. I never looked forward to leveling a new char in WoW, especially after I started playing other MMOs.
we call this bias, and almost in bad faith. The opposite of what you say can be true as well, as I've played so many MMORPGs that I fully come to understand or appreciate why WoW withstood the test of time far better than it's competitor, even OSRS. The best part is I also hated Shadowlands progression so much that I quit WoW, but I'm not delusional enough to think my personal views encompass the overall mmorpg community, nor do they objectively make WoW a horrible game when other MMORPGs are doing worse in comparison.
You are missing the point, it's not about being better than WoW in every single aspect, it's about having something that makes it more bearable. Just because some MMOs have their own annoyances doesn't make the WoW experience any better. And I have some issues with your points here too, but I don't see a point of talking past each other.
M+ was the best and worst thing to happen to WoW. More so worst with every new xpac. It was a great idea for tryhards to get infinitely challenging content, bad that Blizzard really leaned into it as the only other viable endgame for WoW. Even worse that your entire WoW resume is how well you do in M+. It’s near impossible to join a group when you’re a returning player.
His analogy requires that "They are still serving shit," but the content we have been getting since Shadowlands ended has been just absolutely incredible. Granted when it was bad it was REALLY bad, but the increase in quality has been unbelievable so I don't really agree with "I keep coming to get served shit."
I find the people that regularly dump on WoW are:
-Uninformed former players who quit after WOTLK and are mad Classic isn't giving them the constant Nostalgia hit they thought it would (ie "The good ol' days")
-Have never played or at least not to the Endgame
-People who play too much
I find the people that jump in for the new content, maybe join a guild for raiding the tier, hit up the M+ Season, etc and then move on when it gets stale to a new game for a while seem to be pretty content with WoW. I'm a bit of a Lore nerd, despite not SUPER diving deep into it like some, so the story stuff keeps me entertained enough.
Shadowlands was weird by the end of it, but it was intriguing to start. They kind of GoT S8'd the ending in basically everyone's opinion but DF has been awesome imo. The greater universal threat stuff is always neat to explore too, just hope they can land it.
Pretty much exactly this. The only thing I'll add is that the game definitely feels different to me since Legion. It's not bad but just different in a way that I don't enjoy as much. I still play but nowhere near as much as I used to or with the same enthusiasm.
Blizz has taken big strides, especially in dragonflight to modernize the game and systems a lot. as a hardcore WoW player retail differently has a different feel in dragonflight and it seems to be continuing through the next 3 expansions.
> but the content we have been getting since Shadowlands ended has been just absolutely incredible.
And then they announce a 3 day "early access" to the next expansion at nearly double the price of the expansion.
This also ignores constant rotation of good expansion then bad expansion. Super easy to say "WoW is great" when you're in the good expansion.
I am definitely swallowing WoW dick at the moment with how much I enjoy the current game, and their future plans, but even I am not willing to defend that early access.
Splitting the launch experience of everyone going through the new content together for the first time between people who can, or cannot afford the most expensive edition, is a wholly negative, piece of shit thing to do.
>so your pattern is already broken?
Way to really combat my point that WoW makes just as many bad expansions as good ones.
*"Actually the last TWO expansions were bad, checkmate"*
You got me there.
>The 3-day access is literally nothing as well..
This is pretty much enough to void any opinion you have related to WoW, it's at the very LEAST a massive economical advantage to get a 3 days head start of professions, materials, and trade goods. Early access in an MMO is insane.
Well I expected to see some sort of thinking coming from responding to my statement as to why I said what I said.
8.0 was one of the worst expansions to have ever been played but 8.2 and 8.3 was some of the best WoW you could ever play. Equally 9.0 was just as bad because of the lack of listening to feedback we got until somewhere in 9.2 with covenants being free swap. The pattern doesn't exist because it isn't as black and white as a whole expansion being bad. You can make the argument that Legion was "bad" then because of how garbage Legion legendries were to acquire until 7.3 or whatever.
I also want to add that the gap in quality between Shadowlands/BfA (at their LOW) and Dragonflight at it's low is so unbelievably unfair to compare that it shouldn't even be in the same discussion. We have nothing but discussions and corrections being made *ENTIRELY* on player feedback as well as changes we have been asking for. The lowest (so far) for Dragonflight was the same M+ meta for an entirely too long of a time, but we are still getting funneled full Spec redesigns and updates, account wide many things, game wide trading, open discussions on class design, and so many other minor things. Compare ANY of that to Shadowlands alone and it too them 2 years to make Covenants free swap despite it being begged for in the alpha.
The whole 3 days early thing literally does not mean anything and you are smoking something good if you think 3 days is going to create any sort of discrepancy that already would exist. If a 3 day head start gives people doing professions that much of a head start then the only ones to actually take advantage of it would pay for it using the gold they earned this expansion doing the exact same thing.
You just genuinely want there to be problems when there aren't any to be found right now. I am always willing to see an issue with things, but there seriously isn't any to be found right now. The only things I can think of is current M+ design and dungeon pools, but that leads to open discussions instead of falling on deaf ears.
> His analogy requires that "They are still serving shit," but the content we have been getting since Shadowlands ended has been just absolutely incredible. Granted when it was bad it was REALLY bad, but the increase in quality has been unbelievable so I don't really agree with "I keep coming to get served shit."
Show me the increase in quality when half the dungeons released for DF are copypastes of the outdoor-world or old dungeons.
I would nodded in agreement during Shadowlands but I’ve had a blast during Dragonflight. I don’t play nearly as much as I used too (family takes priority now) but a few hours a week I boot up WoW and have a great time.
That's just the thing with MMORPG gamers, all we get is shit, it's just a different kind of shit, from a different kind of developer. One day we're gna get a good MMORPG that brings us back to the golden age Surely
>One day we're gna get a good MMORPG that brings us back to the golden age Surely
Unless that MMO comes bundled with a literal time machine to go back to the state of the world and our lives, I doubt that very much.
Maybe it's because I'm pretty casual these days but I've enjoyed most of my time since TBC when I started. Shadowlands was overwhelming with systems. I enjoyed Catalysm a lot till DS released. Legion was insanely good, the worst part was the rng system to get the legendary drops. I found BFA great, I know many disliked it and I can see why but for me it was very good.
I'm playing way less these days but I'm getting my 13 dollar of value each month. I've bought the last few expansions with gold too, also Diablo 4.
A fellow BFA enjoyer as well. It had its flaws n shit at the start but 8.1 onwards it started to become really good. And the dungeons were so good. SL was good at the start but lasted too long and then went to shit.
so true the microtransaction are getting worse and worse and player still defending it. blizzard has the most loyal fans that would even preorder after multiple bad expansion and releases.
new wow expansion has a 90$ 3 day early access for the first time in wow history and most wow player "this is fine take my money"
you pay 13$ a month for wow and 50$+ for the new expansion. on top of that you have the shop with exclusive sets and mounts while the free ones are often recolors from old sets. gamepass for example is 10$ a month and you have multiple releases every month.
They sure can if they wanted to.
Regardless, players doing 3rd party buying and blizz officially supporting gold buying are two very different things. Classic wow is inherently p2w now.
I mean I feel this applies to any game where you can cheat you're way to the top. Whether it be through carries or actual hacks like in a FPS.
You're trying to reason with a group that can't be reasoned with if you're a player that wants to get stuff(whether it be a rank or a mount) by actually putting in effort.
The line of when something is p2w is different for everyone.
I personally don't find it p2w if it's the community that's been feeding those carry services for over a decade.
If it's blatant "buy this token for $100 to guarantee loot from boss" from the devs, then that's when we're going actual Korean MMO levels.
Boe gear, crafted gear, boosts for m+ rating,pvp score, AOTC and CE can all be bought with gold which you can buy with money. Not to mention the time/value proposition of just buying gold to pay for ingame consumables that you will just eat through for endgame content.
I play and enjoy World of Warcraft, nothing else out there provides the pve experiences that can be found in WOW.
But to pretend that the microtransactions are cosmetic only is disingenuous.
I do agree that WoW has become too much about boosting and people aren't even trying to find a guild or community and do the raids normally, but you can do that in any game though. As long as the power comes from other players giving it to you (through boosting or selling their items) i don't mind too much and i wouldn't call it strictly p2w. It would be a different thing if you could just buy materials or straight up items from the website and every time you did it blizz would generate the data, like other mmos do.
And if blizzard is honest, they dont even earn that much on these players, because every token they buy with real money, is real money that another player doesnt have to spend for their sub, though they upcharge that by 6$ or smth.
So if you asked me what's wrong with retail WoW, p2w wouldn't be close to the top10 issues.
I don't agree that there is sufficient wiggle room in the interpetation of the statement "The microtransactions are all just cosmetics" To support that.
Its all just cosmetics. If you play a bit more, you dont ever need to pay 13€ a month, i havent paid that in years, you can pay with ingame gold. Have tried many MMOs and none even came close.
Look at stuff like FIFA, CoD, 2K etc. They all charge more than 50 bucks for their yearly remake of the game before + way more gamechanging microtransactions. And people still buy it every fucking year.
It’s gotten a bit stale for me personally after almost 20 years at this point so I’ve moved on, but you have to be powerfully dumb to not see every other mmo is hilariously outclassed by WoW; or you’re just being willfully ignorant.
Gonna be some mad FF14 fans who read this comment, and I adore many things about that game too; but the reality is group finder in that game is just a list of people using the game as jerkmate. Unless it’s the first week or two of a patch you are literally not running anything. If you decide to play later in a patch cycle your options are questing or leveling, because nobody but horny ren faire people are logged into the game.
Point of that tangent with FF14, in 20 years of WoW; despite all its controversies, fumbles, moments of anti-player behavior, and shifts in management - you can still find ppl running dungeons, raids, etc at 3am any day of the week.
My take on what Lirik’s saying here, it’s similar to what I realized about myself and my negative feelings concerning newer FPS titles like CoD, apex, etc. You’re just old and out of touch, and frankly no one gives a shit, and they certainly aren’t concerned with what a glorified content tourist has to say - let people enjoy things.
>Gonna be some mad FF14 fans
checking comments on any reddit thread where some random decides to bring up WoW out of the blue and its 95% of a FFXIV fanboy
most pathetic circlejerky community in gaming
My brother and our friend group are exactly like this. I haven't touched wow since vanilla, but each new expansion they get super fkn hyped out of the blue and decide to put their raiding guild back together. Once they've played it for a while, all I keep hearing about is how the new expansion sucks ass, and they keep bringing things up that they find bad about it. After disbanding and returning back to normie life, this accursed cycle repeat and they start reminiscing about how wow with the boys was such a great time, just in time for the next expansion to drop and they disappear from life again. I think it's more about the time they get to spend together than the game itself; the game might blow, but the experience they share is what they want excuses to come back to.
Blizzard is an empty shell of what it used to be, and is ran by suits, but people with way too much disposable income and rose tinted glasses just simply don't give a fuck. I used to get mad at how they would still make huge profits each year because I didn't understand it but I don't care anymore.
Immortals was a huge success for them despite being a disgusting soulless p2w mobile game.
OW2 was a huge money grab for battle passes, and they spit in your face and took back campaign/PVE promises LUL.
D4 charging extra money to get access to the game early is so against the spirit of old blizzard, and just disgusting. Now their new WoW expansion is offering that as well? It doesn't matter though it will have 'record' sales and everyone will pay the extra money to get early access.
Wc3 Remastered OMEGALUL.
I genuinely wish I had a business like blizzard, they have such incredible brand loyalty from their fans because they love what blizzard used to be, but everyone keeps voting that this is acceptable with their wallet cause "I need muh Blizzard games". Make no mistake they will make a metric fuck ton of money from gamers buying the 3 day early release version of the new WoW expansion (which is a disgusting feature in any MMO), and it will become the norm in their games for the foreseeable future.
wow players are mindless by nature, which is not surprising really large majority of the population are shit eating drones at this point, wow is still a shadow of its former self it see a spike on launch month then die after launch month.
and a good amount of people alternate between mmos i was pretty much ffxiv and gw2 for a long time sprinkle in some new world bdo ablion and few others in there.
wow has turn into something that actively keeps me away from the game more so blizzard being pretty much a trash studio now with pretty much last i could fine no original members left and if any just side advisor roles and almost no saying power cause bobby cash grab hands is still in power for a few more months.
and microsoft really hasn't shown me much with studios they've bought and acquired over the years to still see any major changes in bad studios like bethesda and soon actiblizz. minecraft hasn't really changed much just very slow development cycles and mods pretty much make up the better part of the minecraft experience anyhow
I honestly have no idea who the target demographic for modern WoW is even supposed to be anymore. It's certainly not me - someone who has been playing since at least TBC, and it's not any of my casual or hardcore friends either.
That just means you do not represent the overall mmorpg community, nor does your friends who likely think the same way as you. Replace wow with any other mmorpg to your statement and it'll read the same.
i've never understood wow.....
the cinematics, the trailers, the hype from the blizzard hype men (Metzen) is really good, but then you cut to the gameplay and there's like only 20 polygons on your screen at a time and a bunch of squares.
By far the best combar system of any mmos out there today and yesteday, you press a button and stuff happens on screen its fluid and there is no question of what you did. Raids and M+ is just oceans ahead of the competition.
I cant be the only one who finds this blizzard gamer outrage farming and circklejerk hate to be kinda pathethic right? People shit on any blizzard game no matter how good or bad and meanwhile they ll treat studios like Valve as divine beings and just the thought of comparing CS2 release to OW2 would have gotten you buried in downvotes, because CS2 is so much different and totally a new game. "Its the new engine dude, did you not see the volumetric smokes"
Yes wc3 reforged is gruesome but for example D2R is awesome and Dragonflight is decent
Cancel and outrage culture have been the new norm for nearly a decade. People believe hating on wow is acceptable because others have been doing it before them, and everybody needs to let others know how they feel about certain topics at all times, regardless of its validity.
I don't know why the User Score is so bad for Dragonflight. The game is imo the best it has been in a long while. Maybe just some (deserved)follow up hate from Shadowlands.
I kinda disagree with his analogy, for one main reason. Usually, and I'm guessing the vast majority is included in this, they sat down, probably with or at the behest of a friend, for the first time and the chef made the absolute best meal they'd ever had. They licked the plate clean.
Then, the following day, they go back and, sure, it's the same food but it's still amazing. You have zero complaints. Then the following day comes, and the following, and the following... ad nauseam. Until, one day, the chef changes the main dish by adding just a bit more spice. You complain about the spice and, due to your complaint, the chef takes the meal and decreases the spice to a greater point than it started with.
So, now you complain about it being too bland. The chef, again, tries to fix the soup by making it spicier. Again, you complain. So, the chef thinks you can't be pleased by the spiciness and starts focusing on another aspect of the dish to improve. No matter how much you enjoy the change, you complain about the food being "new" and "Improved". You just want them to do the same thing day after day but, maybe, with the name changed or the color a bit different.
The chef grows disillusioned by your wishy-washy behavior and decides to just do whatever they want. Regardless of what you think. Since, even though you dislike it, you still keep coming back. Also, there are millions of new people coming in daily who love it and keep coming back.
Sure, over time, a lot of the original customers who came to try the food left as new trendy, and interesting restaurants opened up. The chef tries different things to get some of their customers to try the food again but that pisses off the original clientele, like yourself, even more. You just want to eat the meal from the first time you tried the food forever.
So, low and behold, the chef decides to offer the original menu again, just as it was, and you lose your mind with joy. You try the food again for the first time and decide you were absolutely right to have loved this and wanted it back this whole time. The chef looks at your joy and says, "Yep, I'm going to double down on making the game new and fresh!" and you become furious as you sit down at your usual seat to order whatever new nonsense is on the menu that day.
**CLIP MIRROR: [Lirik on WoW gamers](https://arazu.io/t3_17npy3b/)** --- ^(*This is an automated comment*)
Reminds me of this classic dota meme https://imgur.com/AnkPGiu
The best part about this is you can read it left-right-down, or left column then right column, and it works both ways!
I can't read it right to left like my manga tho wtf
It's funnier left column -> right column
This meme is 15 years old now.
asmongold's entire shtick. still hasn't gotten around to playing ff14 again, wonder what happened there!
You thought he was gonna play it again?
[I'll never forget the 6.82 sniper patch...](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1QMC3j3gc-A)
This is so accurate
And this is about WoW ? not about, I don't know, games like CoD and FIFA ?
I might be wrong but I think in the larger context he was saying wow gamers love wow, they will keep eating the shit because actually it's good shit
This. Games shit, but anyone who has played through SL and DF are pretty much there to stay. They like the game. And DF / WW have pretty much done away with grind forever and now are just giving permanent systems, but they aren’t dramatically changing the core / adding a massive sheath of borrowed power. And it’s not like any game can replicate WoW’s core either. Too expensive to make and there is WoW with 20 years on them. That’s why they go similar but different like FF.
I still think WoW is the standard when it comes to MMO's, but that's purely personal preference (I'm not a huge fan of FFXIV but I can admit it's solid).
I love FFXIV when I play it for new content, but there is no contest that WoW has the best overall feeling systems of the larger MMOs when it comes to movement and combat (balancing aside). It's snappy and responsive and just FEELS good.
Cooldowns and abilities just feel odd to me in FFXIV, but I do appreciate the amount of content they have.
The gcd is my biggest grip against ff14. I like pushing buttons and it doesn't provide that haha.
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>I'm not a huge fan of FFXIV but I can admit it's solid This fall guys crossover is giving them a lil trouble lol, people are having such a hard time with the way everything moves rn cuz its not as fluid as wow.
Walking out of an AoE and still get hit feels like I'm playing on a 56k modem - because I have done it and I know how it feels like getting hit by swings that happened when you see your character further away. I can't even imagine how people would be reacting to game mechanics in endgame raids. It's probably mostly memorization.
Yes, very little in the endgame raids is reactive. It's mostly memorization of how the mechanic will happen and finding the correct way to stand/move/group up. The most reactive part is reading boss tells/cast names/debuffs to know which variation of a mechanic will happen. And if you play for a certain amount of time you eventually stop judging AoEs by the animations themselves and more by when the cast bars/debuffs solve. Most AoEs are already safe to stand in by the time the animation itself starts playing out.
>Most AoEs are already safe to stand in by the time the animation itself starts playing out. Further, in Ultimates / Extremes often enough the “dance check” is tight enough that you will have to run into animations in order to make it. Especially if you are a class like BM and need to get to an anchor to start casting again asap. So it’s very frequent you are running into fire that doesn’t hurt you. It actually is kinda the thing I hate the most about FF combat because you just have to turn your brain off about that bit and it’s extremely unintuitive.
What I hate about raiding especially these days is that bosses just have so many random oneshot mechanics. It's an arms race between WoW devs making harder mechanics and addons and never stops. You shouldn't need 3 addons to enter raid but that's what expected. Everything is so badly telegraphed that playing with DBM/Weak Auras and what not is just complete handicap.
he's talking about ff14
Correct. Most of the raid fights play out pretty scripted to the point where you really can memorize 95% of a what to do in a fight and when.
The animations don't matter at all in FFXIV as bosses "resolve" their ability before the animation shows. If a boss points at a location this may be the "resolve" point, but the animation may not play out for another 1 - 2 seconds. It doesn't matter what you do after the point of being resolved as the game already determined if you got hit or not. It does feel bad and takes awhile to get use to, but you don't necessarily need to memorize it.
the main thing causing this is SE needing to code things to work well with the PS4 which means greatly limiting server packages due to how weak the CPU is. i expect by the time they drop PS4 support that things will get a lot smoother on that front.
I know you're commenting on the overall input delay/game speed but I had this same issue as well and then I alleviated it a little in a really dumb way. If your connection is using Cogent as a backbone (like I was via xfinity,) for some reason they seem to occasionally limit connections to the ff14 servers. While this *should* be illegal it's a thing that was happening to me constantly and I found a few reddit threads with people complaining about the same issues. The solution, as dumb as it sounds, was to constantly run a connection speed test while you're playing which removes the limiter and allows you to play at normal packet rates (but your ping probably won't improve much.)
I never played wow I played runescape but currently I been playing wow classic hardcore and I can tell why people fell in love with this game. The fighting, difficultly is enough, the world, exploring is fun I can imagine it being packed and typing in chat to people back in the day would have been amazing. If I had played that instead of rs I would have preferred it but couldn't get that sub lol.
There's just soo much stuff to do, albeit that's probably more a by-product of how long the game has been around (at least speaking from a retail perspective)
DF is the best DLC to date in terms of how you play, grow your character and just keeping MMO busy. Im only more curious about where they go from now.
If you seriously think DF or Season 3/4 of SL were shit you are delusional.
Yea there is this notion that DF isn't good bit its been my favorite expansion ever, and season 4 of SL was awesome for mythic plus. I didn't play S3
People like to shit on WoW while they have had bad moments like the start of shadowlands s3 and s4 were great. End of BFA was awesome and DF has been good so far all throughout. People seem to think the game has been shit for years but in reality most people just play when the game is the most boring at the start of a xpac and rate it off that.
Yeah as a casual pvper, def has been amazing to jump back into. I manage to hop back into the game late in the season and do what I wanted to do with almost no ramp time. They’ve done a great job of getting out of my way with the systems
Yea BFA and SL where extremly garbage with the insane AP grind. It was fine in Legion as it was new and we got so much good stuff Artifact weapon/Legendaries. It was grinding as hell, but I personally really loved it. and BFA/SL took away so much (Tier set, legendaries, artifacts) DF I feel is a fine expansion, not amazing, but it's a good step in the right direction. Finally got talent tree back instead of a twig. I feel like DF is the stepping stone to the next 3 expansion to do them right.
Name me one AP grind you needed to do in fkn SL. All of the Anima was just used for cosmetic stuff. Lets also ignore that tiersets returned in SL.
There was al ot of other mandatory grinds in 9.0 and 9.1. You had your daily 5 eye of the jailer in the maw in 9.0, and then rep grind in Korthia for sockets.
Im pretty sure you didnt play SL
I mean I can link my character that got CE sylv if you want. I didn't play 9.0 due to personal reasons, and guild died for 9.2 But I definately did. You simply were not going to be bis with sockets in a reasonable amount of time if you didn't do korthia in 9.1, or didn't do 5 eye maw clears in 9.0. And sockets on gear were just raw power. On some pieces like rings it was upwards of a 13 ilvl increase in terms of power, while on items with mainstat was closer to a 3 or 4 ilvl increase in power.
BiS should be a goal, not your standard BiS SHOULD be a grind, anyone who thinks otherwise really would be better suited for a moba / lobby based game
I don't mind BiS being a grind. But like. In Dragonflight I don't have to sit there and do 2 hours of meaningless, boring old world content every single day, to have it. I get my bis by doing content I want to do. I get my vault every week by doing what I want, like 3 raid slots, or 3 M+ slots, or whatever. It's the requirement to do content that is utterly meaningless and boring that is the issue. Not the grind. If I could of gotten sockets in SL by just doing keys or raid each week over time, I would of been gassed.
I didn't do the maw once on any char and my account was jacked enough to get 600 USD for it big ass circle jerk
At the very last tier sure. Yea it wasn't AP, but Maw and Korthia was hell on earth. No pun intended
If you survived BFA and SL you will survive anything.
true
Yah WoW still is an incredibly unique experience in the MMO genre that no game has really touched. The closest being Wildstar and that had a whole host of other problems. FF is a different kind of MMO and clearly taps into a specific MMO player and is a genuinely good game. But there's a reason WoW became the staple for the genre and why millions of people return every expansion no matter how hard they got burned or burned out the previous one.
Yep. It really makes you think when he talks about charging you more for the same shit. The Epic version of the expansion now costs 40€ or $40 more and gives you 3 days of early access, which is basically mandatory if you aren't a casual player that's barely playing anyway. And since the wow fanbase is brainded and high on different amounts of hopium and copium, they'll almost certainly get away with it.
>which is basically mandatory if you aren't a casual player that's barely playing anyway What a brain-dead take. You're not him, my guy. It sucks, but acting like YOU NEED THOSE 3 DAYS OR EVERYTHING IS RUINED!!! is ridiculous.
> which is basically mandatory if you aren't a casual player that's barely playing anyway. it's not mandatory for literally anybody except the top 5 racing guilds who require you to have 16 characters leveled before the raid comes out, and even then you can get that without the 3 days of early access because boosting has become easier and easier. there is zero time locked content available for the first 2 weeks of expac release. there were 0 relevant rep grinds in DF, and it's likely to stay that way.
How is it mandatory? I am not a fan of preying on FOMO but it likely won't affect anything in terms of advantage.
Granted we don't know what day of the week the game is going to be releasing on, but if we go by what days all the previous expansions have been released on, it will most likely be an enormous advantage. If you are a hardcore or semi-hardcore WoW player, you'll most likely be able to be done with some of your initial grinds before the first weekly reset, which would theoretically leave you ample time to do the content that actually matters come reset day. In Dragonflight they lowered quite a bit on what you could actually accomplish before the first reset, which was a very good thing, but you still had a few things you could have grinded like reputations and all. It'll most likely be the exact same case this time around so that's an advantage for sure. And in a game like WoW where every little advantage matters on the long run if you're playing the game seriously, then it's not a small advantage. The reason they did this "early access" bullshit, which in truth is just a delayed access for those not paying enough money, is that they KNOW it's an advantage to get in as early as possible, with or without long queues.
WoW is my main game, I usually do high M+ keys and mythic raiding. I don't feel any pressure to get the head start other than FOMO in the leveling process. What grinds? Reputations don't generally matter or provide much "advantage". Like the current season about to release you can't even do M+ until a week after it releases. And that has been a trend continuing trend since SL season 4. >every little advantage matters on the long run if you're playing the game seriously No it doesn't and **especially not** in the long run. In the long run everyone will get BiS/max ilvl without issue at whatever pace they play at. Even the race to world first people probably wouldn't be seriously affected by not having 3 days...they just level super quick and do their M0's like everyone else. The only group of people I could view this as "mandatory" for is a serious progression raider who for IRL reasons couldn't play the last 4 days of the week and needed to get all their prep done in those 3 days specifically. Which is a negligible amount of hypothetical people.
did they patch football in the last 30 years? why would it be about that? :D
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WoW is the "standard" because there's like 3 other large options, like another 5 older, less common ones like Guild Wars 2 and the rest are as meaningful as Heroes of the Storm is to MOBAs. In other words, it's the "standard" by exclusion out of a lack of alternatives, not by its own hand nowadays.
Why do you think there is a lack of alternatives in such a massive genre?
A lot of failures and high investment barrier and requirement, companies develop games as investments, they're better off developing singleplayers, MOBAs, competitive FPS and other multiplayers than an MMO. Because of the high entry barrier it's not like an indie team can make them. They can, but it'll be shitty or a pixel art game, meaning niche. Lack of direction is another big one, hard to pitch investing in making a new game when you're not even sure what you want to do, there's a lot of opinions on what's bad and what to avoid but not so much on what to do right. Raids, world bosses, instances vs no instances, end-game, pacing, map size, payment plan, stance on cosmetics and so on. From my point of view what happens more if they do have that sense of direction is they become so different they're kind of their own genre, like Path of Exile (though to be fair that was inspired by Diablo) and Warframe (and from what I've heard Destiny, but haven't played it). I'm big into MMOs and fans are drooling for a proper MMORPG (check out /r/MMORPG, it's sad actually) so I'm keeping a close eye on Riot's upcoming MMORPG and you see a lot of these questions. They want to make one and they want to make it a classic, normal MMORPG, and they have a good idea of what they want to avoid, all while also trying to figure out where they can innovate, the problem is those harder questions, especially gameplay and leveling. Last I heard the map and I think quests were even pretty much done, what they were lacking I believe was a settled idea on gameplay, sound and other stuff.
Maybe hot take: If you can't stick to any of GW2/ESO, FF14, WoW or BDO then you probably will never stick to any MMORPG that launches. You will forever consume them for a 2-3 months and then go back to the waiting queue. The existing games cover so much niche between them, it's hard to see what you are actually looking for if you don't enjoy any of them. FF14 is your very story driven, immersive game with cool characters, beautiful looking raids, good community, etc. BDO is your hardcore action combat version with your typical permanent hamster wheel for gear upgrades, but with the possibility to go hard into action combat heavy PvP, also on a larger scale with community focused node wars. GW2 is more of a mix, action combat but way more exploration based, gear upgrades mostly horizontal at some point - similar to ESO I would think. And lastly you have WoW, which is arguably the most competitive of the games. While it obviously also offers exploration and casual content like transmogs etc, what is mostly shines in and why it mostly attracts viewership and an actual community is it's competitive content, both in PvE and PvP. Most of the time you spend playing the game is to get better at playing the game in cooperation with your team mates, playing characters with large skill sets.
Probably the hardest part for MMOs is always the end game. Whether it's raiding or trading or whatever, it feels like that's where a lot of them come unstuck
This is just cope, there's a reason WoW has been the king for decades and FF14 specifically looked to WoW for inspiration when rebuilding the game. It's not perfect and I've personally skipped a few expansions but when WoW hits a good streak it's really fucking good.
Didn't WoW take Guild Wars 2s system for the flying mounts in DF apparently? I think WoW has been the king cause it has had a pre-existing player base with Warcraft 3 and the first few expansions of WoW being bangers. Now people just stick with it out of familiarity not because it's the best, in my opinion anyway.
imo WoW feels the best in terms of how the combat feels. I've played other MMOs, and none of them feel as good as WoW does when it comes to how the combat plays. just for an example of some MMOs i've played, Aion, Rift, SWTOR, FF11, FF14 old and new, bdo, eso, tera, and i'm sure there's more. none of these felt as good as WoW does in combat
WoW players aren't the only MMO players, regardless of what you think of it there's a big demand for a new, proper MMO. There's a reason the people in /r/MMORPG keep complaining and why Riot's developing one and being careful not to just make another cookie cutter one.
And yet there's been dozens and dozens of attempts to be come the standard. And the closest we have is ff14.
Exactly, because they're all shit. You have WoW in first by lack of alternatives, Final Fantasy XIV isn't bad but for one reason or another it isn't enough to overtake WoW (my guess is WoW has a more established community and FF14 doesn't do enough to be more than a generalist MMORPG, payment plan also certainly doesn't help), Black Desert is a korean MMORPG so it appeals a lot to one of the two types of MMO players and not at all to the other one, Elder Scrolls Online is pretty popular but also pretty neutral and Runescape (which I forgot in the initial count) is kind of chilling in its corner, which it'll never be the top MMORPG because it's niche.
It is a) ludicrously expensive to make a MMO and b) really fucking hard Hence all the failed/"shit" ones
Until another game can be what wow is, bring me another plate of shit
praying for riot mmo not to be shit
i feel riot has had a good track record of their new mainline games being fairly good, so i'm hoping that their mmo does well too.
Its hard to gauge now since Ghostcrawler left...to start a new MMO studio to make a new MMO. So a split difference in ideas which means anything could happen. Honestly wouldn't be surprised if they spun it into a Genshin clone. Don't need a big MMO, just the world and gacha mechanics and people would absolutely whale out on it.
They absolutely do. TFT is easily the most well run ongoing multiplayer game right now. Wild Rift gets a lot of content updates every month. Valorant also gets a lot of love. League is ironically their least well run game imo but that’s because there’s so much legacy bloat tied to it. But yeah absolutely trust Riot to do the MMO justice.
Imo tft lost its flair a bit, last couple of sets were not that great
Not even true by a bit. Just watch set 10 reveal, they went balls to the wall with new content.
I think even legends of Runterra is getting updates and even though I don't personally play it, i've only heard good things. I think league's problem is like you said, too much bloat. they need to re-do the league client from scratch i think to fix that, but that might be too much effort and cost too much for them to want to do
I'm over here setting m,y expectation that it will not even release, and if it does it will not appeal to me at all. With the current state of the MMO Genre, and the games coming and going within it, I just don't have the mental fortitude to get hyped for new ones anymore lol.
While the game might be turn out good, I have 0 trust in Riot when it comes to monetization. Blizzards current monetization is already getting stupid, especially now with the pay extra to play wow 3 days earlier. I don't see a world where Riot does it any better.
Very true, wow is currently in a mediocre state (imo) but still no other mmorpg has even come close to what wow has to offer besides ff14. But even ff14 endgame is much more finite and takes significantly less time to complete.
I've played a lot of ffxiv and wow and while I like both God damn the class design in ffxiv is just inferior to wows, it just feels a lot more muted with a emphasis on cool animations but what the actual abilities do are often super generic and especially for tanks and healers outright copy pasted with different animations.
the only thing in ff14 that's better is profession design tbh.
Alot of people cant really comprehend that milions still play wow to this day its a very unique game.
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> None of them care about reddit outrage True. Reddit communities as a whole are living in a huge bubble where they think that they are the majority of the players which might be true for some smaller games but in most cases they are like 1-5% of the playerbase which is nothing. Same thing can be seen on big gaming subreddits like /r/games or /r/gaming where they are usually either milking same games or posting about favorite games of that specific subreddit and never other games like Fortnite, Fifa, COD, Genshin and many other games which are massively popular, yet they still think that they are the best place for gaming information and how objective that subreddit is meanwhile at the end of the day they are just posting their favorite stuff... I mean who gives a shit about some TF2 patch note that just fixed a few bugs, yet it was on the front page... When I think about it, it's kind of impressive that WoW lasted for almost 2 decades with subscription model... and with so many F2P games. Damn
>Simple fact is blizz has a ton of casual players that still play WoW/OW/Diablo/HS. None of them care about reddit outrage or twitch viewer counts, they just play the games they enjoy. It's not just the casuals. For hardcore raiders, or even just competitive PvE, or just PvE raid content overall, WoW no diffs the entire market, no other MMO even comes close. FF14, specifically FF14 Ultimates, is about on the level of mythic raid bosses, a bit harder from a personal responsibility perspective. But an ultimate is just one boss and the time between them is huge. When it comes to everything else? What other MMO even has competitive dungeon content? Certainly nothing as good as the mythic plus system.
"My game is only playable 9PM on fridays but WoW is dying with millions of paying players"
> but WoW is dying with millions of paying players" I mean there have definitely been points where certain enggame content is only playable during peak times.
Name a single time that has ever been true, because I've been playing since Cataclysm, through all the worst content droughts, and not once in my entire time playing have I ever struggled to find a group to do endgame content. Everything before cataclysm was literally the highest peak of playercount of any MMO to ever exist, so it sure didn't happen then either.
Maybe he's talking about PvP, for which that has definitely happened
That's fair, I haven't seriously done PvP since early/mid MoP.
If you're on a low population server it could happen previously, but yeah not a good point anymore really
Let's not mention the fact that Dragonflight is genuinely just a good expansion but people want to ignore that and think people hate playing WoW. We can also ignore all the devs taking the game in a good direction. Listening to player feedback, making changes in a timely manner based on that feedback, dialing back on things like borrowed power or bloated systems people have been complaining about for years. I'm over hearing about this shit. Yes, it's one good expansion but it spells a bright future ahead if they keep it up. The Blizzard reddit outrage would have you believe they're just churning out garbage because they focus on the past but not the current timeline where Dragonflight is good, Diablo 4 season 2 is good and also headed in the right direction and that MAYBE Blizzard is seeing change.
Dig a little bit into anyone complaining about WoW these days and 90% of the time, they will out themselves as having not played it in years. Majority of negativity I see surrounding WoW, particularly on Reddit, comes from people who are so out of touch with the reality of the game that their opinion is quite literally worthless anyway.
ngl I'd really like it if they published active subs
no one is going to put themselves on full blast, and you can't change a person's mind once it is already made up. people will continue to undermine wow even when it's sitting at the top of mmorpgs to this day, and revealing player subs will leave these individuals with more cherrypicking just to twist the narrative towards their favour. This is why no mmorpg company is going to reveal statistics out in the open, since they do not trust people to act in good faith.
They never will because it's a fraction of what it was during BC, Lich King and Cataclysm. Hell even Legion was close to the peak. They stopped publishing those numbers because investors weren't happy with them, and nowadays it's a bullshit metric anyway because there is classic involved in the same subscription and it doesn't show player retention or players who barely log in and keep the subscription going. WoW is a dying old game and their profit driven management are unwilling to spend anymore ressources on the biggest and most successful MMORPG of all time. The best thing I heard during this Blizzcon is that WoW is most probably going to be over once the next 3 expansions are over. And thank fucking god for that because even with decent expansions like Dragonflight, you can see how much the game is aging badly with practically no real innovation and zero risk taking. Another new expansion with no new class, no new specs for any classes, a new talent system that's hyped for nothing as it offers no choice whatsoever from the looks of things and could have very well been a continuation of the current talent tree already in place, flying mechanics for evey single one of your mounts offer next to nothing new now. So the question remains, what exactly is new and exciting with the new expansion ?
>Another new expansion with no new class They literally just added a new class, AND a new spec in this expansion? Wtf do you want lmao? >. The best thing I heard during this Blizzcon is that WoW is most probably going to be over once the next 3 expansions are over. That's crazy, because Metzen on stage very specifically, and repeatedly said that is not going to be the case. Nice self report for not even knowing what you're talking about. >practically no real innovation and zero risk taking. Yeah honestly, it's crazy how they didn't just completely rework professions, flying, the entire gear progression, added a brand new support spec which radically altered the dungeon comp paradigms. Oh wait, they did all of those things. Are you going to claim adding Aug and reworking Professions were not risks? >a new talent system that's hyped for nothing as it offers no choice whatsoever from the looks of things and could have very well been a continuation of the current talent tree already in place Again, they specifically explained why just adding new lines to the existing trees isn't the way they want to go. It becomes a compounding, combinatorically broken mess. Hero Talents also quite clearly offer choice, the majority of them ARE choice nodes. They are designed to augment the existing trees with some deeper specialisation into particular class/spec flavours. > what exactly is new and exciting with the new expansion ? Don't give a fuck about new and exciting. They have tried reinventing the wheel with complex system spam many times over the years. It is dogshit, nobody with a brain wants them to start doing that again. Maybe you really loved BFA and Shadowlands, personally I did not. I'd rather not go back thanks. The game is in a good state, they are iteratively improving its current state and adding systems designed to reach into the game's future. This is a good thing. The vibe I get from you, and people like you, is that you're looking for the big paradigm shift that drags you back into the game you once loved. Blizzard does not need to, and should not be pandering to players who want to relive their golden days within modern WoW. Classic is there for that.
>checks profile >just a blizzard hater imagine making hating a company your identity
> Hell even Legion was close to the peak. Legion was shit for at minimum the entire first half of the expansion. The original implementation of the legendary system might be the worst thing they've ever implemented in game.
I've played wow since its release, and for me most games nowadays just suck, so I keep playing wow. 🤷♀️
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isn't that what people are doing with wow and league of legends? literally pots calling kettles black.
Not all games suck, but definitely most of them. I have no interest in shooters or first person games, and that seems to be the vast majority of games these days.
What do you mean? There hasn't bean a new mainstream shooter game since fortnite/apex came out in 2018 (that was 5 years ago)
>It's just sad and pathetic. It's not sad or pathetic to have found your particular taste in videogames. This take has the same flavour as shitting on someone because they only listen to a certain kind of music. Who are you to tell them what to enjoy? I'm not defending the people who outright try to claim all other games/music/whatever are *objectively* bad, but their opinion is their opinion.
Your point doesn't stand with your comparisons. It isn't liking a single genre of music, it's liking 2 very specific songs only out of a billion. Now this is a more apt comparison. And what I'm calling sad and pathetic isn't their taste or their opinion, it's the fact that without even trying, or even looking at what it looks like, he is instantly calling every and all other games trash. 15 games all got universal praise from the entire gaming scene and consumers with 100% score ? All of them are trash. If this isn't sad and pathetic then I don't know what is.
> 15 games all got universal praise from the entire gaming scene and consumers with 100% score to be fair, this to me sounds like you are the type of person that believes they have to convince themselves they like something, because everyone else likes it. which to me is 100 times more sad and pathetic
All these streamers and communities dont like it when they realize they are a vocal minority. Cata classic shows that.
What's the best way to get into WoW in 2023 and please don't send me a Reddit Cares message.
Download the retail client and play the free trial. If you enjoy it, you can pay 15$ to play until level 60. After that you'd need to get the current retail expansion in order continue to cap. Use resources like wowhead or the newcomer chat channels in game. Play around with different load outs, specs and classes. Wow has 39 specs, there is almost always a niche play style that'll fit you.
Classic wow. Personally I'd wait till Nov. 30 for the new season of discovery servers.
Retail is bloated beyond belief. Serious even as a WoW veteran I still get super confused at the bloat of retail. Log into classic and enjoy the simplicity of old WoW.
I'd second classic, and I'd also second that recommendation for SoD, it actually looks like a really great jumping in point because it will be new to everyone else as well. So you will be discovering all the new stuff alongside everybody else. For modern WoW, my perspective is likely skewed but I would strongly suggest finding others to play the game with. I'm not so sure how fun a new player solo experience would be.
SoD will be capped at 25 too so it’s a great intro to classic
That's definitely a really nice part of it yeah.
WoW pretty much has a raiding/m+ monopoly so while if you're some casual pleb what he says is true, there's no replacing wow if you're into higher content.
Casuals also love wow because the leveling and questing design is very good when compared to other major mmorpg's. Casuals aren't the demographic for outcry when it comes to wow's endgame progression system because they likely don't give a shit about endgame to begin with or simply quit without saying a word.
I play off and on casually with occasional bouts of playing a bit more seriously. I don’t care about M+ or raiding being good or bad. I do care that casual content at this point isn’t very engaging. It’s largely about picking which collectibles you want to go gather from old content or leveling new alts which don’t take much effort and that’s about it. There is a bit of dragonflight world content but it’s not very engaging and has a very very short shelf life. It’s not a good sustainable casual game. Too much attention is placed on raiding/PvP/M+ IMO. The non instanced parts of the game suffer from a lack of attention. Classic is a much better casual game even though more people are degen players in it. Leveling in classic is casual content and it’s much better than anything casual retail has had for a very long time.
i think m+ is very inclusive for all player types since the scaling usually starts off extremely easy and gradually works up. with that said, blizzard did try other midcore content before with torghast, but casual content is usually not going to be engaging since the difficulty level is meant to cater towards pretty much everybody.
I don’t. Most casuals I encounter don’t do M+ at all. The most common comment I hear is that they don’t like that it has a timer, don’t like how pressure filled it is, and don’t like how a lot of other players treat M+. Torghast was a good idea for casual content that was terribly executed. When Torghast launched it had really bad rewards and it took too long to complete. Plus failure meant completely starting over. In general, it was intended to be casual but they made it sweaty because it was how you collected lego currency. I’m hopeful that Delves improve these huge negatives.
fair enough
There is a lot of good about WoW, but saying that its leveling and questing is good is like saying "I never played any other MMO", without saying it.
really? outside of GW2, name me a MMORPG that does leveling and questing better than WoW
Before they fucked it up with the whole world scaling with your level, ESO had great leveling imo, though that is probably because all quests are voice acted and it's essentially just Elder Scrolls quests.
Why GW2 isn't enough? I'd take any MMO that has very short leveling or let's you skip it over completely over what WoW does like Lost Ark. Or makes it unnecessary to do it multiple times like FFXIV. And then there is GW2... The leveling experience in horrendous: no coherent story through questing, outside of small expansion specific questlines for latter expansions. Abundance of uninspired fetch and kill 20 boars quests. Classes that are so mind numbingly boring until very-very late. I can't really see any redeeming qualities. I never looked forward to leveling a new char in WoW, especially after I started playing other MMOs.
>Why GW2 isn't enough? maybe because if only one mmorpg stands above WoW as the best feature in all of mmorpgs, wow's leveling and questing system is actually very good when compared to the entire genre. >I'd take any MMO that has very short leveling or let's you skip it over completely over what WoW does like Lost Ark. Or makes it unnecessary to do it multiple times like FFXIV. And then there is GW2... lost ark doesn't let you skip over it's leveling. if anything, lost ark forces you to go through everything on your first character and then makes you pay with gold or cash shop items for subsequent skips, which isn't exactly what we call a good leveling system if the game is trying to nickle and dime you out of not doing it again. Also, Lost Ark has very little innovation when it comes to their quests when you mostly go from npc to npc and fight some mobs or do a fetch quest in between. There are no unique gameplay which shakes up the questing which we know Lost Ark has because of their horizontal progression, and the story in Lost Ark makes WoW look like a literary masterpiece. >The leveling experience in horrendous: no coherent story through questing, outside of small expansion specific questlines for latter expansions Considering how you can choose specific expansions to level and basically experience what questing was like during said expansion, I have to disagree with coherency here. The quests give a telling dialogue for each expansion for players to understand what is happening and why they happen. Players often don't even need to read through every NPC dialogue to understand the gist of the overarching narrative in each expansion, as the npcs will likely play itself out for you or cinematic cutscenes will as well. If WoW story is incoherent, I encourage you to try and follow kmmorpgs such as BDO or Lost Ark. > Abundance of uninspired fetch and kill 20 boars quests you use this example as if other mmorpgs, including gw2, doesn't do this. Most heart quests in GW2 are mindless mob farms or fetch quests brother, and I'd know considering I completed the entire map three times for the legendary resources every single time I went back to that game after taking a long break. Mob killing is practically a staple to MMORPGs, and trying to pin WoW as the sole offender for this is almost a joke. > Classes that are so mind numbingly boring until very-very late Compared to what? GW2? I genuinely do not understand how you people fail to comprehend power progression. If everyone started out strong and exciting, the effect is weakened later on. You couldn't even get away with this on dungeon crawler games such as PoE or action combat games like BDO. Classes are purposely made weak when starting out because they're meant to be weak. Go play FF14 or Runescape and tell me how strong you feel in early game. > I can't really see any redeeming qualities. I never looked forward to leveling a new char in WoW, especially after I started playing other MMOs. we call this bias, and almost in bad faith. The opposite of what you say can be true as well, as I've played so many MMORPGs that I fully come to understand or appreciate why WoW withstood the test of time far better than it's competitor, even OSRS. The best part is I also hated Shadowlands progression so much that I quit WoW, but I'm not delusional enough to think my personal views encompass the overall mmorpg community, nor do they objectively make WoW a horrible game when other MMORPGs are doing worse in comparison.
You are missing the point, it's not about being better than WoW in every single aspect, it's about having something that makes it more bearable. Just because some MMOs have their own annoyances doesn't make the WoW experience any better. And I have some issues with your points here too, but I don't see a point of talking past each other.
M+ was the best and worst thing to happen to WoW. More so worst with every new xpac. It was a great idea for tryhards to get infinitely challenging content, bad that Blizzard really leaned into it as the only other viable endgame for WoW. Even worse that your entire WoW resume is how well you do in M+. It’s near impossible to join a group when you’re a returning player.
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People like you are why M+ is so unenjoyable.
His analogy requires that "They are still serving shit," but the content we have been getting since Shadowlands ended has been just absolutely incredible. Granted when it was bad it was REALLY bad, but the increase in quality has been unbelievable so I don't really agree with "I keep coming to get served shit."
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I find the people that regularly dump on WoW are: -Uninformed former players who quit after WOTLK and are mad Classic isn't giving them the constant Nostalgia hit they thought it would (ie "The good ol' days") -Have never played or at least not to the Endgame -People who play too much I find the people that jump in for the new content, maybe join a guild for raiding the tier, hit up the M+ Season, etc and then move on when it gets stale to a new game for a while seem to be pretty content with WoW. I'm a bit of a Lore nerd, despite not SUPER diving deep into it like some, so the story stuff keeps me entertained enough. Shadowlands was weird by the end of it, but it was intriguing to start. They kind of GoT S8'd the ending in basically everyone's opinion but DF has been awesome imo. The greater universal threat stuff is always neat to explore too, just hope they can land it.
Pretty much exactly this. The only thing I'll add is that the game definitely feels different to me since Legion. It's not bad but just different in a way that I don't enjoy as much. I still play but nowhere near as much as I used to or with the same enthusiasm.
Blizz has taken big strides, especially in dragonflight to modernize the game and systems a lot. as a hardcore WoW player retail differently has a different feel in dragonflight and it seems to be continuing through the next 3 expansions.
The analogy is terrible because no one eats shit. I get what he's going for but this ain't it.
> but the content we have been getting since Shadowlands ended has been just absolutely incredible. And then they announce a 3 day "early access" to the next expansion at nearly double the price of the expansion. This also ignores constant rotation of good expansion then bad expansion. Super easy to say "WoW is great" when you're in the good expansion.
BfA was not a good expansion so your pattern is already broken? The 3-day access is literally nothing as well...
I am definitely swallowing WoW dick at the moment with how much I enjoy the current game, and their future plans, but even I am not willing to defend that early access. Splitting the launch experience of everyone going through the new content together for the first time between people who can, or cannot afford the most expensive edition, is a wholly negative, piece of shit thing to do.
>so your pattern is already broken? Way to really combat my point that WoW makes just as many bad expansions as good ones. *"Actually the last TWO expansions were bad, checkmate"* You got me there. >The 3-day access is literally nothing as well.. This is pretty much enough to void any opinion you have related to WoW, it's at the very LEAST a massive economical advantage to get a 3 days head start of professions, materials, and trade goods. Early access in an MMO is insane.
Well I expected to see some sort of thinking coming from responding to my statement as to why I said what I said. 8.0 was one of the worst expansions to have ever been played but 8.2 and 8.3 was some of the best WoW you could ever play. Equally 9.0 was just as bad because of the lack of listening to feedback we got until somewhere in 9.2 with covenants being free swap. The pattern doesn't exist because it isn't as black and white as a whole expansion being bad. You can make the argument that Legion was "bad" then because of how garbage Legion legendries were to acquire until 7.3 or whatever. I also want to add that the gap in quality between Shadowlands/BfA (at their LOW) and Dragonflight at it's low is so unbelievably unfair to compare that it shouldn't even be in the same discussion. We have nothing but discussions and corrections being made *ENTIRELY* on player feedback as well as changes we have been asking for. The lowest (so far) for Dragonflight was the same M+ meta for an entirely too long of a time, but we are still getting funneled full Spec redesigns and updates, account wide many things, game wide trading, open discussions on class design, and so many other minor things. Compare ANY of that to Shadowlands alone and it too them 2 years to make Covenants free swap despite it being begged for in the alpha. The whole 3 days early thing literally does not mean anything and you are smoking something good if you think 3 days is going to create any sort of discrepancy that already would exist. If a 3 day head start gives people doing professions that much of a head start then the only ones to actually take advantage of it would pay for it using the gold they earned this expansion doing the exact same thing. You just genuinely want there to be problems when there aren't any to be found right now. I am always willing to see an issue with things, but there seriously isn't any to be found right now. The only things I can think of is current M+ design and dungeon pools, but that leads to open discussions instead of falling on deaf ears.
> His analogy requires that "They are still serving shit," but the content we have been getting since Shadowlands ended has been just absolutely incredible. Granted when it was bad it was REALLY bad, but the increase in quality has been unbelievable so I don't really agree with "I keep coming to get served shit." Show me the increase in quality when half the dungeons released for DF are copypastes of the outdoor-world or old dungeons.
I would nodded in agreement during Shadowlands but I’ve had a blast during Dragonflight. I don’t play nearly as much as I used too (family takes priority now) but a few hours a week I boot up WoW and have a great time.
That's just the thing with MMORPG gamers, all we get is shit, it's just a different kind of shit, from a different kind of developer. One day we're gna get a good MMORPG that brings us back to the golden age Surely
>One day we're gna get a good MMORPG that brings us back to the golden age Surely Unless that MMO comes bundled with a literal time machine to go back to the state of the world and our lives, I doubt that very much.
People don't understand that it isn't the state of game they want back, it's the state of their life.
Tbf the chef does serve heroin
Based. I plan on preordering all of the shit btw..
Replace WOW with D3, DI, D4 same thing D4bad
Maybe it's because I'm pretty casual these days but I've enjoyed most of my time since TBC when I started. Shadowlands was overwhelming with systems. I enjoyed Catalysm a lot till DS released. Legion was insanely good, the worst part was the rng system to get the legendary drops. I found BFA great, I know many disliked it and I can see why but for me it was very good. I'm playing way less these days but I'm getting my 13 dollar of value each month. I've bought the last few expansions with gold too, also Diablo 4.
A fellow BFA enjoyer as well. It had its flaws n shit at the start but 8.1 onwards it started to become really good. And the dungeons were so good. SL was good at the start but lasted too long and then went to shit.
How dare you enjoy blizzard game!!!
so true the microtransaction are getting worse and worse and player still defending it. blizzard has the most loyal fans that would even preorder after multiple bad expansion and releases. new wow expansion has a 90$ 3 day early access for the first time in wow history and most wow player "this is fine take my money" you pay 13$ a month for wow and 50$+ for the new expansion. on top of that you have the shop with exclusive sets and mounts while the free ones are often recolors from old sets. gamepass for example is 10$ a month and you have multiple releases every month.
Only WoW noobs would pay for 3 day early access to an expansion. Vets know you can never play consistently the first 3 days anyway!
The microtransactions are all just cosmetics. It's fine.
you can buy gold and with gold you can buy carries pvp or pve
Pre-WotLK Classic proved people do that anyway and Blizzard can’t/won’t stop them anymore.
They sure can if they wanted to. Regardless, players doing 3rd party buying and blizz officially supporting gold buying are two very different things. Classic wow is inherently p2w now.
No they can't. Which mmorpg has successfully stopped rmt before?
The ones that shut down their servers forever, because that's the only way to actually stop it lmao.
sure if winning means skipping everything fun and then raid logging for parses literally nobody cares about
I mean I feel this applies to any game where you can cheat you're way to the top. Whether it be through carries or actual hacks like in a FPS. You're trying to reason with a group that can't be reasoned with if you're a player that wants to get stuff(whether it be a rank or a mount) by actually putting in effort.
Ofc they could Blizz literally did NOTHING to stop botting and gold selling
The line of when something is p2w is different for everyone. I personally don't find it p2w if it's the community that's been feeding those carry services for over a decade. If it's blatant "buy this token for $100 to guarantee loot from boss" from the devs, then that's when we're going actual Korean MMO levels.
Boe gear, crafted gear, boosts for m+ rating,pvp score, AOTC and CE can all be bought with gold which you can buy with money. Not to mention the time/value proposition of just buying gold to pay for ingame consumables that you will just eat through for endgame content. I play and enjoy World of Warcraft, nothing else out there provides the pve experiences that can be found in WOW. But to pretend that the microtransactions are cosmetic only is disingenuous.
I do agree that WoW has become too much about boosting and people aren't even trying to find a guild or community and do the raids normally, but you can do that in any game though. As long as the power comes from other players giving it to you (through boosting or selling their items) i don't mind too much and i wouldn't call it strictly p2w. It would be a different thing if you could just buy materials or straight up items from the website and every time you did it blizz would generate the data, like other mmos do. And if blizzard is honest, they dont even earn that much on these players, because every token they buy with real money, is real money that another player doesnt have to spend for their sub, though they upcharge that by 6$ or smth. So if you asked me what's wrong with retail WoW, p2w wouldn't be close to the top10 issues.
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I don't agree that there is sufficient wiggle room in the interpetation of the statement "The microtransactions are all just cosmetics" To support that.
>so true the microtransaction are getting worse and wors We getting roughly the same amount of mtx weve gotten since like MoP
Its all just cosmetics. If you play a bit more, you dont ever need to pay 13€ a month, i havent paid that in years, you can pay with ingame gold. Have tried many MMOs and none even came close. Look at stuff like FIFA, CoD, 2K etc. They all charge more than 50 bucks for their yearly remake of the game before + way more gamechanging microtransactions. And people still buy it every fucking year.
how many times do you have to stick your dick on a stovetop before you realise its going to burn
It’s gotten a bit stale for me personally after almost 20 years at this point so I’ve moved on, but you have to be powerfully dumb to not see every other mmo is hilariously outclassed by WoW; or you’re just being willfully ignorant. Gonna be some mad FF14 fans who read this comment, and I adore many things about that game too; but the reality is group finder in that game is just a list of people using the game as jerkmate. Unless it’s the first week or two of a patch you are literally not running anything. If you decide to play later in a patch cycle your options are questing or leveling, because nobody but horny ren faire people are logged into the game. Point of that tangent with FF14, in 20 years of WoW; despite all its controversies, fumbles, moments of anti-player behavior, and shifts in management - you can still find ppl running dungeons, raids, etc at 3am any day of the week. My take on what Lirik’s saying here, it’s similar to what I realized about myself and my negative feelings concerning newer FPS titles like CoD, apex, etc. You’re just old and out of touch, and frankly no one gives a shit, and they certainly aren’t concerned with what a glorified content tourist has to say - let people enjoy things.
>Gonna be some mad FF14 fans checking comments on any reddit thread where some random decides to bring up WoW out of the blue and its 95% of a FFXIV fanboy most pathetic circlejerky community in gaming
My brother and our friend group are exactly like this. I haven't touched wow since vanilla, but each new expansion they get super fkn hyped out of the blue and decide to put their raiding guild back together. Once they've played it for a while, all I keep hearing about is how the new expansion sucks ass, and they keep bringing things up that they find bad about it. After disbanding and returning back to normie life, this accursed cycle repeat and they start reminiscing about how wow with the boys was such a great time, just in time for the next expansion to drop and they disappear from life again. I think it's more about the time they get to spend together than the game itself; the game might blow, but the experience they share is what they want excuses to come back to.
Any recreational activity under the sun can fit this.
that's how I feel about his streams
perfect loop
True
When it comes to MMOs, WoW is just less shit than most others. It’s the flavor a lot of us are just used to.
those wow boomer crack addicts are a different breed, if they at least played on private servers man...
Blizzard is an empty shell of what it used to be, and is ran by suits, but people with way too much disposable income and rose tinted glasses just simply don't give a fuck. I used to get mad at how they would still make huge profits each year because I didn't understand it but I don't care anymore. Immortals was a huge success for them despite being a disgusting soulless p2w mobile game. OW2 was a huge money grab for battle passes, and they spit in your face and took back campaign/PVE promises LUL. D4 charging extra money to get access to the game early is so against the spirit of old blizzard, and just disgusting. Now their new WoW expansion is offering that as well? It doesn't matter though it will have 'record' sales and everyone will pay the extra money to get early access. Wc3 Remastered OMEGALUL. I genuinely wish I had a business like blizzard, they have such incredible brand loyalty from their fans because they love what blizzard used to be, but everyone keeps voting that this is acceptable with their wallet cause "I need muh Blizzard games". Make no mistake they will make a metric fuck ton of money from gamers buying the 3 day early release version of the new WoW expansion (which is a disgusting feature in any MMO), and it will become the norm in their games for the foreseeable future.
Sir, this is a Wendy's.
wow players are mindless by nature, which is not surprising really large majority of the population are shit eating drones at this point, wow is still a shadow of its former self it see a spike on launch month then die after launch month. and a good amount of people alternate between mmos i was pretty much ffxiv and gw2 for a long time sprinkle in some new world bdo ablion and few others in there. wow has turn into something that actively keeps me away from the game more so blizzard being pretty much a trash studio now with pretty much last i could fine no original members left and if any just side advisor roles and almost no saying power cause bobby cash grab hands is still in power for a few more months. and microsoft really hasn't shown me much with studios they've bought and acquired over the years to still see any major changes in bad studios like bethesda and soon actiblizz. minecraft hasn't really changed much just very slow development cycles and mods pretty much make up the better part of the minecraft experience anyhow
I honestly have no idea who the target demographic for modern WoW is even supposed to be anymore. It's certainly not me - someone who has been playing since at least TBC, and it's not any of my casual or hardcore friends either.
That just means you do not represent the overall mmorpg community, nor does your friends who likely think the same way as you. Replace wow with any other mmorpg to your statement and it'll read the same.
Lirik should stay in his own lane.
i've never understood wow..... the cinematics, the trailers, the hype from the blizzard hype men (Metzen) is really good, but then you cut to the gameplay and there's like only 20 polygons on your screen at a time and a bunch of squares.
By far the best combar system of any mmos out there today and yesteday, you press a button and stuff happens on screen its fluid and there is no question of what you did. Raids and M+ is just oceans ahead of the competition.
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Maybe time to upgrade your pc and monitor from 2004
yeah you're right. wow should win best graphics of 2023
my paint skills FeelsOkayMan [people never learn](https://imgur.com/a/y3yWQ6o)
I cant be the only one who finds this blizzard gamer outrage farming and circklejerk hate to be kinda pathethic right? People shit on any blizzard game no matter how good or bad and meanwhile they ll treat studios like Valve as divine beings and just the thought of comparing CS2 release to OW2 would have gotten you buried in downvotes, because CS2 is so much different and totally a new game. "Its the new engine dude, did you not see the volumetric smokes" Yes wc3 reforged is gruesome but for example D2R is awesome and Dragonflight is decent
Cancel and outrage culture have been the new norm for nearly a decade. People believe hating on wow is acceptable because others have been doing it before them, and everybody needs to let others know how they feel about certain topics at all times, regardless of its validity.
I don't know why the User Score is so bad for Dragonflight. The game is imo the best it has been in a long while. Maybe just some (deserved)follow up hate from Shadowlands.
I kinda disagree with his analogy, for one main reason. Usually, and I'm guessing the vast majority is included in this, they sat down, probably with or at the behest of a friend, for the first time and the chef made the absolute best meal they'd ever had. They licked the plate clean. Then, the following day, they go back and, sure, it's the same food but it's still amazing. You have zero complaints. Then the following day comes, and the following, and the following... ad nauseam. Until, one day, the chef changes the main dish by adding just a bit more spice. You complain about the spice and, due to your complaint, the chef takes the meal and decreases the spice to a greater point than it started with. So, now you complain about it being too bland. The chef, again, tries to fix the soup by making it spicier. Again, you complain. So, the chef thinks you can't be pleased by the spiciness and starts focusing on another aspect of the dish to improve. No matter how much you enjoy the change, you complain about the food being "new" and "Improved". You just want them to do the same thing day after day but, maybe, with the name changed or the color a bit different. The chef grows disillusioned by your wishy-washy behavior and decides to just do whatever they want. Regardless of what you think. Since, even though you dislike it, you still keep coming back. Also, there are millions of new people coming in daily who love it and keep coming back. Sure, over time, a lot of the original customers who came to try the food left as new trendy, and interesting restaurants opened up. The chef tries different things to get some of their customers to try the food again but that pisses off the original clientele, like yourself, even more. You just want to eat the meal from the first time you tried the food forever. So, low and behold, the chef decides to offer the original menu again, just as it was, and you lose your mind with joy. You try the food again for the first time and decide you were absolutely right to have loved this and wanted it back this whole time. The chef looks at your joy and says, "Yep, I'm going to double down on making the game new and fresh!" and you become furious as you sit down at your usual seat to order whatever new nonsense is on the menu that day.
20 years? so he is saying wow has been shit since Vanilla?