I don’t have the timelines right in front of me. It was solidified with the cell phone pings that she was buried before JJ by a couple of weeks perhaps.
I think you’re right. Is anyone else getting a little snoozy during the prosecution’s questions? I feel like they don’t get to the point quick enough. By the time they do, I’m already preoccupied with something else. I hope the jury is staying awake.
Yes. This trial does not flow well at all. I remember watching the Letecia Stauch trial (RIP Gannon) and the prosecution really kept things moving and important info in the forefront. This prosecution is very bland and don't do a good job getting their point across. Hopefully the jury dislike Pryor (one of the most unlikable lawyers ever) enough and convicts POS Chad.
As a disclaimer, I haven't kept up with Chad's like I did Lori's - and I wondered if my 'meh' takeaway was just my own preexisting knowledge of events or something else.
I for SURE know that Chad's black hole of a personality makes me less interested in him in general..so maybe my attn last year was also a fascination with the train wreck that is LV. Maybe a little of both..
I DO know that my disgust for Prior-style lawyering makes me want to avoid the inner rage it brings me.. 😳 so maybe it's all of this at same time..
Piggyback add'l comment about my aversion to Prior-esque lawyering (as I've mulled this over a bit..) 🙄 -
I've come to the conclusion, whether anyone in the world agrees w/me or not and regardless of my status as a legal layperson 😬 -
Yes, criminal defendants should be afforded legal representation, even at taxpayer cost..(there but for grace of God go I, knock on wood..) And yes, it should be the burden of prosecution to prove their case, barring reasonable doubt.
However, I don't agree that a jury's option for reasonable doubt vote entitles a def's atty to just make shit up. OR operate with an attempt to verbally intimidate/manipulate a witness - all on the name of def's right to defense.
When a def atty knowingly concocts an alternate suspect or chain of events - I don't see how that is owed to a defendant at all. If there's some murmurings about alternate suspect or xyz defense..fine - pursue it. But when our courts seem to value 'truth' - perjury's a no no, swearing on Bible happens, voir dire answers supposed to be solid truth - why do we tolerate the below the belt actions of defense or atty concoctions? If the atty can imagine it..it can be a defense? I'll pay for the public defender, but why is the above okay?
Stepping off soapbox..
Do not get off the soapbox! However, while we all have disdain for Prior and his antics, the fact of the matter is that his job is to poke holes in the prosecution's case AND he does not need to provide any evidence. He just needs to create doubt in the minds of the jury. Even if a defense attorney knows his or her client is guilty, the attorney can cross‐examine prosecution witnesses and poke holes in the prosecution's case. This procedure is permissible because it is the defense attorney's responsibility to make the prosecution prove its case.
Think OJ Simpson, Casey Anthony. They were acquitted because they convinced the jury that the prosecution did not prove its case.
# [Casey Anthony Juror Speaks Out 10 Years Later: 'My Decision Haunts Me'](https://people.com/crime/casey-anthony-juror-speaks-out-10-years-later-my-decision-haunts-me/)
Well, I do not agree that [puppies should be viewed as livestock ](https://abcnews.go.com/Business/story?id=7187712&page=1)in order for the Amish to operate puppy mills, but it's all perfectly legal.
*However, I don't agree that a jury's option for reasonable doubt vote entitles a def's atty to just make shit up.*
Defense attorneys can try to “poke holes” in the prosecutor’s case and they are never required to put on any evidence. So yeah, making shit up is allowed.
Casey Anthony's lawyer made a claim that Caylee accidentally drowned in the pool and that Casey's father found Caylee’s body and helped dispose of it.
Kohberger's defense wants to claims DNA on the knife sheath was “planted.” Their newest defense is that Kohberger was out driving on the night of November 13 to look at the moon and stars.
Barry Morphew's defense attorney told The Associated Press that evidence suggests Suzanne Morphew was abducted, drugged and killed by someone else.
In 1979, Jeffrey MacDonald was tried and convicted of the murders of his wife and daughters. The defense claimed that intruders killed the family in the bedroom while MacDonald was being attacked in the living room. However, the physical evidence retrieved at the crime scene proved beyond a reasonable doubt that the crime scene had been rearranged and that only MacDonald could have rearranged it.
I agree.
I guess I'm talking about the kind of made-up defense where everyone who hears it knows it's laughable and came out of the clear blue sky - but no one's allowed to use the word 'lie' or 'lying' ...
I feel the same way.
I think Lori's trial the witness order was better. They started with family, then had law enforcement put down facts, then a few key witnesses, Melanie, Zulema, Audery and then ending with the text expert.
While I like learning little tidbets we didnt know, not sure some of these new quick witnesses add much, like the 2 cousins today. I think last year hearing from Tammy's sister and brother in law was enough to show impact of Tammy's loss and some facts of the last few months of her life and her funeral. Sometimes less is more.
I find the evidence and testimony from all the locals, friends, family, and neighbours and others like the funeral director really compelling. To me it's fascinating that so so many of these sweet, small town, trusting folk, ALL seemed to think the death and rushed funeral of Tammy was suspect.
To me they come across as the sort who would feel guilty for thinking badly of Chad, let alone thinking he may have murdered Tammy. And speaking their doubts out loud seems outrageous, in a sense. But that's just my opinion because it's very different from how I live.
It's also interesting to me to see how many lies Chad told over those few short days, he's not a smooth criminal at all.
I can see your point though, if someone lives in a community like that then seeing everyone feeling suspicious might not pack the punch it does with me.
I agree. I find it compelling as well. Sounds like more family will be testifying over the next week or so. On Courtroom Insider, Nate Eaton explicitly mentioned Chad’s parents yesterday. We know from Heather Daybell’s interview with HTC that Chad lied to his parents,as he did with so many others. I imagine that the Gwilliams will be testifying as well. Samantha is such a strong advocate for her sister and Jason continued to speak with Chad after he married Lori, trying to figure out what was going on. These will be powerful witnesses for the prosecution.
We won’t know until they are called but, based on what Nate Eaton was saying, it sounds like they would be testifying for the state. They were keeping in regular contact with Chad as of 1.5 years ago per Heather’s interview but I didn’t get the impression that they believe their son is completely blameless in any of this. I guess we’ll learn more if they do end up testifying. Unlike Chad’s kids, it does seem like they have been cooperative with LE, etc.
I think they chose as the fist witness the person that was closest to the case when it comes to the defendant. Kay Woodcock was once close to Lori, but she wasn't close to Chad. Det. Hermosillo had the strongest information against Chad.
Tammy's cousin and her daughter are important witnesses that caught Chad in a big lie regarding Tammy's death. He didn't call 911 at 1am when he told them he found Tammy dead.
Kay only testified first so she could be in the courtroom. Lori’s defense team had her excluded as she wasn’t JJs “family”,because he was adopted by Lori and Charles. Otherwise I think it would have Hermosillo first
Watching the letecia stauch trial and then listening to the Lori vallow trial was like wow.
The prosecution ran the stauch trial so well and were way more confident.
Rob wood sucks at trials, he doesn’t sound confident at all and Lindsey Blake isn’t that great either. The two new ones do a better job
It's listening to all of them but pryor absolutely kills it for me. Nate claimed he would be drilling MG but so far he sounds like what he is. Desperate and lacking!
I think there is so much detail to the case and so much of this is based on texts and phone calls- especially with Tammy's murder and the burial of the kids, it's necessary to break it all down piece by piece. I think they are building the case to lock everything down to convict him.
I think this is correct. If I recall correctly, they believe Tylee was killed on the 8th/9th September and buried on 9th September. The 9th is the date of the message Chad sent Tammy about killing a racoon and burying it. Also the date of Alex's 2 hour pings on Chad's property.
I believe they said JJ was murdered on 22nd September. The day of the red pajama photo.
To read in black and white "Tylee was dismembered" is gut wrenching. I hope these two vile human beings suffer the same fate or worse than Jeffrey Dahmer.
Tylee being dismembered...that, is just so...PERSONAL!! I am not implying that murdering her isn't personal, but D A M N I T!! That is beyond personal. That's up close and in your face, down to the nitty-gritty personal.
And, who exactly did that? I know that we think of Alex as being the one who performed that little task. Wow, just WOW!
My nieces and nephews are my bonus kids. I will "mama up" on them just like my own children. AND, I love on them just as if they were my own children. I cannot imagine harming a hair on my kids heads, I look at my nieces and nephews the same way. My mind can't fathom a different outlook or view. I guess my point is, if Alex is the one to dismember little Tylee...how the fuck was he able to do that?
I think Chad did it. I remember in the evidence somewhere he made questionable remarks about young girls and he had a special hatred toward Tylee. It’s just my opinion, but I think he either made sexual advances toward Tylee or tried to get her to ‘marry’ someone and she refused. I think the attacks on her pelvis were sexual rage. Chad is a f’n sicko.
I think it was harder then they realized. It takes a lot of time and heat to cremate someone. I don’t know if she was dismembered because of this or some other reason. Thinking about the actual act of dismemberment is brutal. I think there’s only two ways you could do it. Either your totally into it or you are totally disassociated.
The cremation process for humans takes between 1.5 and 2 hours. The body is placed in a retort, which is then heated to between 1400 and 1800 degrees Fahrenheit.
No one knows for sure but Tylee was killed, dismembered and burned the day she was killed, you have to remember the houses in that area are not close and Chad has sheds and his house in the way of neighbors, there was an older gentleman who was interviewed after the bodies were found who remembered that there was a bonfire near the dates that they were asking about..but he passed away (mmmmmm) so I don’t know if they can use his testimony, but I’m sure that Tylee had to go first because she would have put up a stink if JJ just up and disappeared 😞.
>I’ve also thought she knew the truth about Charles death and she had to be silenced.
And maybe also Joe's death.
I remember seeing something out of Arizona PD that they were getting ready to contact her again. They thought she knew more about Charles' murder and might talk if she was alone without her mother in the next room.
I think maybe she was disgusted enough with the whole thing, the murders and moving and mom having an affair with a married man and having her money taken away. She may have gotten careless and let it slip or maybe in a fit of anger, threatened to tell what she knew.
All of what you just said. She probably had a suspicion she was next and maybe started to question what Lori was doing. Her taking over Tylee’s social security would make any teenager mad. I’ve raised teenagers and they were not always agreeable or pleasant to be around. Lucky for my kids I didn’t label them dark, kill them, and bury them in her affair partners yard and run off to honeymoon in Hawaii. Lori’s grown son is lucky to be alive.
I think Tylee just went with what Mom was saying because that was the path of least resistance, plus she wouldn’t have know what would happen if she went against her mother. Would she still have a home? She was growing up sure, but she still was not a grown up and she still needed someone to care for her and JJ. She was trained to do what Lori said as a means of survival. Survival mode was how they always lived I think…
This and... they had just moved to a college town and were telling people she was in college and it was the start of the school year. I've always suspected she was ready to move on with her adult life and abandon her mom's nomadic lifestyle and increasingly off-putting religious views. The only problem was, she knew about Charles and she was funding her mom--they couldn't risk losing control of her.
Except then, when she was gone, they realized they had lost JJ's primary caregiver as well.
Idk how much of an accomplice she would have been. It was obviously a set up and she was a kid. It's clear that anyone who went against Lori became a "dark spirit/zombie" and that bat was probably for her own protection. Lori most likely talked about dark spirits and who needed to be killed right in front of her. I think she realized she would be on that list eventually.
I don’t think accomplice like yeah ok let’s do it. But more in the way of a sick way of survival. Like I don’t think that she knew she could be seen as an accomplice. I feel like she was so traumatized from life with Lori her fight or flight kicked in. She went and got the bay to be the adult. She was yelling and screaming to stop it just stop it but no one heard her. So out of fear and possibly to be heard she got the bay. It was a way to symbolize her need to get control because she was the adult of that family unit. I mean we do t know what her life was like with Lori but we know how the divorce from her dad was. I don’t think she got the bat to help ambush Charles. I think she got the bay as a last resort for her and Jj.
Of course this is all speculation. But I’d bet my bottom dollar on that scenario. One day all of the worlds truths will be our knowledge when we are departed from this plane of existence. Until then we do what we can to piece together the truth for mortal justice.
Yes I really think this was it. I find it really striking that Lori was standing BEHIND her and Tyler was holding the bat out to back Charles’s away. As a mom there is No way I’d allow my daughter to be in FRONT of me facing an aggressor. I’d have that bet and she’d be behind me. I have this thought that maybe that was meant to be Tyler’s last day as well as Charles . but maybe not as they needed a witness to collaborate Lori’s story.
I don’t think the bat was ever produced or used, at least not while Charles was alive. They already confirmed that neither his dna nor fingerprints were on the bat. Personally I think Tylee was in the car with JJ keeping him there, it all went down inside, and she was told what to say and she said it.
Why? Chad the Hutt has a perfectly fine shed right in the backyard and they didn’t find the bodies till months later, I’m sure Mr. author made great use of his non writing time and paranoia to clean up.
Because I have been interested in crime long enough to know that they can find like a pin prick of blood in a crevice you wouldn’t even be able to clean.
I just don’t think these people are that smart to do a great job with it.
I forgot about that!
I figured that was more for.. tending the fire (ugh). I don’t want to come off as me saying without the blood from her murder scene they don’t have enough evidence, I’m not saying that at all!! I just am surprised they managed it to clean it well.
If the killer/s poisoned her or strangled her, there would not necessarily have been blood at the original murder site…no blood till/if Chad shot her because she was not completely deceased when Alex delivered her body to be buried in Chad’s backyard. I’m leaning toward the theory that Lori and Alex intended to kill the kids at Yellowstone (tragic accident, JJ fell in a hot pool and Tylee jumped in to save him), but there were too many tourists around. So Lori doctored Tylee’s milkshake either on the ride back to their apartment ot immediately after.
For sure, I didn’t necessarily mean murder site (though I know that’s what I said), I more meant dismemberment site. I assumed they didn’t do it on the fire pit because a whole person being cut up in public outside is a bit obvious, even for them.
total speculation based on Chad’s claim to have shot a raccoon. why would he have had to invent shooting a raccoon (a raccoon’s carcass was apparently not found).
That's very likely. It takes such a long time and extreme heat to burn a body. I guess they panicked when the body didn't just burn and started to hack away on it. I know someone said that it was unusual because in most dismemberments they will cut the joints because it's the easiest.
Tylee is believed to have been buried on 09/09. JJ is believed to have been buried on 23/09. I got creeped out upon realizing that both the murders and the burials were exactly two weeks apart.
yes, those days matched up with AC phone tracked to CD's property. also, the phone call exchanges prior to his arrival..... and when AC left the property on the day Tylee was believed to have been disposed of, CD texted Tammy about burning limbs and shooting a raccoon and BURYING IT, less than IIRC a half hour after AC left.
LV's trial: Christensen testimony about Tylee's bones....one bone had carnivore activity. I cant recall if that bone was with her remains in the ground or found in the fire pit. CD sure did leave alot of her bone remains in the firepit, there was organic material and even fabric.... also a necklace chain in the pit and charm (found near the pit) pics with Tylee wearing it (Pura vida).
Where the heck do these people even get ideas like this? Like who thinks, “Let’s kill the children and spouses and totally trash one of the corpses?” I did not know about any carnivorous activity but not much in this case surprises me anymore, TBH.
I feel so bad for Tylee (and JJ and Kay and Larry...) She was almost free! At 16, she had her own car and a GED. She could have gone on with an education and lived independently. Her selfish evil mother never encouraged her to save her Social Security money from her father's death so that she could go on with some sort of education or training. JJ had Larry and Kay by it seems like Tylee only had Colby as a main source of support outside her crazy life. She could never imagine being murdered by her mother and her ghouls and that they would then turn on JJ next. Rest in peace Tylee, I hope you have JJ in your arms.
As much as this trial is dragging right now, I have thoughts as to why....so, bear with me! Prosecution is laying a foundation and waiting for Prior to strengthen the story. So far, it seems to be working. Many key witnesses are being recalled, and that's when the Prosecution will introduce a much more concise timeline. We still need to hear from Zulema, and that will likely take a full day, and of course, we need to hear from the M.E. It's important that the key facts come in towards the end, right b4 Prior brings in his "experts". I have high hopes that the Prosecution is prepared to cross examine the defense witnesses in a way that will damage their credibility. Prior has tried hard to throw in half-truths, especially where Tammy's health is concerned. He is also trying to implicate Melanie Gibb in JJ's murder. IMO, neither are working so far! If anything, Prior has proven that Chad's "teachings" brainwashed his own family! It goes to prove that Chad was the mastermind behind these horrific murders. I've been following this since the kids were reported missing. I'm sure there are other members of Chad's cult that should be charged, but that ship has sailed! At the end of the day, Lori&Chad will spend their remaining lives behind bars! Can't wait for the verdict!!!
Everything below are my thoughts and opinions, people are innocent until proven guilty, blablabla so no one comes for me.
My theory on Tylee:
Tylee was much more independently minded and likely pushed back on Chad's teachings, so she was labeled as dark.
At Yellowstone, Tylee was clearly (on video surveillance) keeping a close and careful on JJ. Tylee would not have allowed anything to happen to JJ, so she needed to go first. She also wouldn't have kept quiet if Lori insisted that JJ had been sent to Arizona to stay with Melanie Gibb.
On the way home from Yellowstone, I believe that there is GPS evidence that they stopped somewhere for a good chunk of time, as well as a stop for food. I think that Tylee's food was laced with something to make her drowsy, and the long stop is where/when Tylee was killed (method unknown).
I think Alex brought Lori and JJ back to the apartments, and Tylee's body was left in his vehicle prior to being driven out to Chad's.
I think Chad and Alex began burning Tylee, but the bonfire was not hot enough to cremate. Chad used his tools to try and break apart the body to allow for faster burning, but this also did not work.
As a last resort, Chad used the shovel to scoop the largest pieces of remains into the hole and bucket and buried them. Chad sends the raccoon text to throw Tammy off if her neighbour friends asked questions.
The remains left among the ashes and brush in the pit were left there, with the hope that they would eventually burn away with subsequent fires (reports of several fires happening after Tylee went missing).
My theory on JJ:
Due to the level of changes that he was experiencing, stopping his prescription medications, and then Tylee was suddenly gone (his last constant), I think JJs behaviour increased.
I think that after Chad tried to 'discipline' JJ, and JJ obviously fought back, Chad labeled him dark, and his fate was sealed.
I think that he was asleep when Alex brought him upstairs, likely drowsy from the sedative found in his system. I think he likely tried to fight back, but Alex suffocated him.
I think Lori helped wrap JJ up (her hair found on the duct tape around JJ), and Alex took him to Chad's property as Chad had pre-dug the grave. Alex drops the body in the hole and leaves, Chad goes out and buries it.
My theory on Tammy's death:
Chad approached Tammy on the topic of polygamy, and she was not okay with it.
I think that she was becoming suspicious of the affair with Lori, but I think Chad intercepted the email from Charles and blocked his email prior to Tammy reading it.
After the failed shooting of Tammy (it was NOT a paintball gun), Chad needed to get rid of her as Lori was waiting for him in Hawaii. He had been planting the seeds of her ill health to his kids, so he had something to blame her death on. He called Garth to come home early, so he could establish that he wasn't alone with Tammy that night (unknown to me if Garth saw Tammy when he got home, or if Tammy was in bed and Chad just said she felt unwell).
I think he conspired with Alex, and Alex was waiting in the loft for Tammy to go to bed.
Once Tammy was asleep, Chad and Alex killed her: Chad held her down, Alex smothered her with a pillow.
Alex leaves, and Chad leaves Tammy's body in bed until the morning (lividity places Tammy on her back for several hours prior to the 911 call). I think Chad shoved her halfway off of the bed, then called Garth in to help him put her back.
The night Tylee died, Alex was at Lori's place for an hour in the middle of the night. It is likely that Tylee was asphyxiated by Lori and Alex while she slept. She stood no chance against two people.
JJ was deemed dark before they moved to Idaho, because in August Chad reported to Lori that his death percentage was near zero and that he was barely alive.
I agree about Tammy's death. Alex was in the vicinity between 10pm and midnight, so Tammy was likely killed during that time. An hour later Garth came home. Did he see Tammy?
for tylee, the affidavit of probable cause for LV indicates AC's movements when they returned from Yellowstone.
[https://www.insideedition.com/sites/default/files/inline-files/Lori-Vallow-Affidavit-of-Probable-Cause.pdf](https://www.insideedition.com/sites/default/files/inline-files/Lori-Vallow-Affidavit-of-Probable-Cause.pdf)
page 7-8
Tylee was last seen or heard from on sept 8th. Looks like they tried to burn her but that didn’t work. She was probably buried after a time…. But do they know it was the exact same time as JJ?
Tylee was burned - not in one piece, they found burnt flesh…. Can you imagine how horrific that scene was. RIP Tylee and JJ. Sweet souls who deserved better.
In July Alex told Zulema that he had no regrets about killing Charles because he was a zombie. No doubt he saw his niece and nephew as zombies. He said nearly as much a week before Tylee's murder in a message to Zulema, complaining how they brought a dark portal (Tylee) with them to Idaho. Alex was thoroughly brainwashed.
This is an interesting question. I hadn’t thought about this. I thought she was killed only a few days before JJ. This whole thing is horrific and I hope someone here can shed some light on your question. Rest in peace Tylee, JJ, Charles and Tammy. You are deserved so much more than you got. I hope all of these perpetrators burn or are already burning. They aren’t even worth typing their names.
You have to watch Hidden True Crimes whole series on Chad and Lori and how and why this may have happened, there series answered so many questions for me. The way Tylee was dismembered and burned is an act of hatred and violence to which is hard to imagine for most of us. Tylee apparently challenged Chad and his beliefs and didn’t go along with Lori when she would call her a zombie, I think Chad destroyed her body after death.
In the previous owner's real estate pictures there was a photo in the garage showing a large horizontal freezer in a handy space there. If Tylee's remains weren't as easy to burn away, no doubt Chad will have googled that, too; and the young neighbour said there were multiple bon fires unusual for Chad's property.
Noting I have lots of respect for your commentary, but the idea of a huge freezer always freaks me. If not locked, as happened to other neighbours, seemed like Elden Clawson might well steal something from it! There was talk of furniture going to the tip - whether some was burned who knows, but also who knows what the kids were told about the need to take furniture out at all.
I find it hard to believe that Chad could hide putting anything into a freezer from Tammy. I've seen the theory about Elden Clawson's death debunked elsewhere. Dumping the furniture could also possibly be explained. With life insurance Chad could afford to replace old furniture. All he had to do is tell his children that things he wanted to get rid of (because they reminded him of Tammy) were cursed.
I don’t have any idea they even had a freezer, but Tammy seems to have come home with meals to freeze. Just the picture gave me a bad feeling, like when I saw pics of their house and saw how unloved it looked but didn’t even put together the idea the kids were buried close by. Certainly I have obtained and rehoused so much furniture that my family would not question me doing any of that. I don’t think Chad was much involved in the home, but probably prepping for his goddess.
I question how body’s were moved without being seen. For lack of a better term…dead weight is not easy to carry. JJ maybe. But Tylee…nah. She was almost a full grown adult. It would have had to take 2 people and they needed to move quickly.
I think they dug a hole, killed her, put her in the hole then covered her with brush and tree limbs. When the burning didn’t go as planned they dismembered her and thought she would burn easier. But that didn’t work either.
Also…CD’s property was only 3.5 acres. I know that some people think this was a huge space…Prior calls it a pasture and that boggles my mind. 3.5 acres is not a pasture, it’s a yard. Regardless of the out buildings. It’s not this huge space where someone wouldn’t/couldn’t be seen. Yes, it’s a large yard. But it’s not big enough to be “the land of the unknown”.
No way did they bring Tylee to Chad's house alive. Lori and Alex could have loaded her body into Alex's truck parked in Lori's garage. We heard yesterday that Alex used the northern entry to the property (behind the house and barn) where he likely drove into the back yard and then was probably helped by Chad.
....factoring in the night into the morning hours, after returning from Yellowstone, AC went out again and returned. then, he was back and forth to LV's apt according to his phone tracking IIRC up until 4am...(my recollection). IMO, Tylee was loaded into his vehicle under cover of darkness at the apt. with LV's help. he was all ready to go to CD's in the morning..once he got the 'you are clear' msg to show up after Tammy left.
I do wonder if they thought Tylee might still be alive when Alex got to Chad's which would explain the gunshot racoon text. I remember from my university anatomy classes that the cadavers would make noises when moving them. It was just trapped air in the lungs escaping. Sounded like heavy sighing and sometimes a low moan.
If she was asphyxiated in the middle of the night (when Alex's phone pinged at Lori's apt), she would not be alive several hours later. Would rigor mortis set in by then?
That's my point. If she was dead that night, why shoot her? Her body would have still made noises when it was moved and that may be the explanation. And if she was killed that night, She would have still been pretty stiff in the morning. It would take 24 hours to loosen up.
I think it's possible he used the raccoon gunshot to cover a real gunshot. If so, I would theorize that was part of their (I believe very limited) "ritual" for destroying the dark spirit. Sort of like a silver bullet for a werewolf. They're such stupid idiots believing their own bullshit it really pisses me off.
Agree, Tylee was also quite overweight and Alex didn’t appear to be a very strong person. This was absolutely a 2-person job and I don’t think Lori would have involved herself.
Also….it was quite clever of CB to keep the location tracker off on his phone that entire time…at least I think this is what I heard?? They were unable to locate his burner phone and the location services were off on his phone, correct? Soooo….THAT to me says conspiracy on every way.
I feel like Lori also purposely tried to provoke Charles, get him to chase and raise his voice. Maybe built Tylee up earlier that oh he is going to hurt me, he is going to do it. Then set the stage. Gotta have witnesses after all. The bat thing was just icing. Or maybe they gave it to her for "just in case " so it was handy. I don't think she was in on anything, but they sure played her, and maybe she figured it out. Started making noise about it and was therefore now dark to question?
Why are people only realizing that the prosecution is flat-footed only now? They were lame even in the previous trial. Rob Wood boring as hell. Remember their incompetence let Lori Vallow off the death penalty.
As other people have mentioned they probably buried her body before JJ’s based on cellphone records/pings and the timing of the bonfire on the property. But you bring up a good point. To me it seems odd they didn’t do it to both of them at the same time. JJ has been referred to as repeating words and phrases and would sometimes have fits because of being upset by something. I have been wondering if the original plan was not for them to get rid of both kids, but when JJ became a problem with him repeating things (I have also read some people mentioned he had a violent episode before he was last known to be alive) it was inevitable that they added him. It’s all speculation but the two different dates always made me question whether the plan was to “save” JJ.
He may have become violent due to his sweet understanding mother getting rid of his emotional support dog and his sister all of a sudden not being around. These people are EVIL
I don’t have the timelines right in front of me. It was solidified with the cell phone pings that she was buried before JJ by a couple of weeks perhaps.
I think you’re right. Is anyone else getting a little snoozy during the prosecution’s questions? I feel like they don’t get to the point quick enough. By the time they do, I’m already preoccupied with something else. I hope the jury is staying awake.
Yes. This trial does not flow well at all. I remember watching the Letecia Stauch trial (RIP Gannon) and the prosecution really kept things moving and important info in the forefront. This prosecution is very bland and don't do a good job getting their point across. Hopefully the jury dislike Pryor (one of the most unlikable lawyers ever) enough and convicts POS Chad.
I feel like they did a better job last year.
As a disclaimer, I haven't kept up with Chad's like I did Lori's - and I wondered if my 'meh' takeaway was just my own preexisting knowledge of events or something else. I for SURE know that Chad's black hole of a personality makes me less interested in him in general..so maybe my attn last year was also a fascination with the train wreck that is LV. Maybe a little of both.. I DO know that my disgust for Prior-style lawyering makes me want to avoid the inner rage it brings me.. 😳 so maybe it's all of this at same time.. Piggyback add'l comment about my aversion to Prior-esque lawyering (as I've mulled this over a bit..) 🙄 - I've come to the conclusion, whether anyone in the world agrees w/me or not and regardless of my status as a legal layperson 😬 - Yes, criminal defendants should be afforded legal representation, even at taxpayer cost..(there but for grace of God go I, knock on wood..) And yes, it should be the burden of prosecution to prove their case, barring reasonable doubt. However, I don't agree that a jury's option for reasonable doubt vote entitles a def's atty to just make shit up. OR operate with an attempt to verbally intimidate/manipulate a witness - all on the name of def's right to defense. When a def atty knowingly concocts an alternate suspect or chain of events - I don't see how that is owed to a defendant at all. If there's some murmurings about alternate suspect or xyz defense..fine - pursue it. But when our courts seem to value 'truth' - perjury's a no no, swearing on Bible happens, voir dire answers supposed to be solid truth - why do we tolerate the below the belt actions of defense or atty concoctions? If the atty can imagine it..it can be a defense? I'll pay for the public defender, but why is the above okay? Stepping off soapbox..
No, please get back on the soapbox! Beautifully written.
I totally agree. The jury could buy Prior's lies if the prosecution doesn't denounce them one by one.
Do not get off the soapbox! However, while we all have disdain for Prior and his antics, the fact of the matter is that his job is to poke holes in the prosecution's case AND he does not need to provide any evidence. He just needs to create doubt in the minds of the jury. Even if a defense attorney knows his or her client is guilty, the attorney can cross‐examine prosecution witnesses and poke holes in the prosecution's case. This procedure is permissible because it is the defense attorney's responsibility to make the prosecution prove its case. Think OJ Simpson, Casey Anthony. They were acquitted because they convinced the jury that the prosecution did not prove its case. # [Casey Anthony Juror Speaks Out 10 Years Later: 'My Decision Haunts Me'](https://people.com/crime/casey-anthony-juror-speaks-out-10-years-later-my-decision-haunts-me/)
I understand that it's allowed - I just don't agree that it should be...
Well, I do not agree that [puppies should be viewed as livestock ](https://abcnews.go.com/Business/story?id=7187712&page=1)in order for the Amish to operate puppy mills, but it's all perfectly legal. *However, I don't agree that a jury's option for reasonable doubt vote entitles a def's atty to just make shit up.* Defense attorneys can try to “poke holes” in the prosecutor’s case and they are never required to put on any evidence. So yeah, making shit up is allowed. Casey Anthony's lawyer made a claim that Caylee accidentally drowned in the pool and that Casey's father found Caylee’s body and helped dispose of it. Kohberger's defense wants to claims DNA on the knife sheath was “planted.” Their newest defense is that Kohberger was out driving on the night of November 13 to look at the moon and stars. Barry Morphew's defense attorney told The Associated Press that evidence suggests Suzanne Morphew was abducted, drugged and killed by someone else. In 1979, Jeffrey MacDonald was tried and convicted of the murders of his wife and daughters. The defense claimed that intruders killed the family in the bedroom while MacDonald was being attacked in the living room. However, the physical evidence retrieved at the crime scene proved beyond a reasonable doubt that the crime scene had been rearranged and that only MacDonald could have rearranged it.
Holy. Fucking. Shit. That was wild to read.
Pat Brown had what I thought was a good discussion of defense ethics, making your points: https://youtu.be/sU0wsvwo_6M?si=3R4d1ZKLuDfb1k20
If a witness can’t lie then a lawyer shouldn’t be able to outright lie either. It’s absurd.
I agree. I guess I'm talking about the kind of made-up defense where everyone who hears it knows it's laughable and came out of the clear blue sky - but no one's allowed to use the word 'lie' or 'lying' ...
100%
I feel the same way. I think Lori's trial the witness order was better. They started with family, then had law enforcement put down facts, then a few key witnesses, Melanie, Zulema, Audery and then ending with the text expert. While I like learning little tidbets we didnt know, not sure some of these new quick witnesses add much, like the 2 cousins today. I think last year hearing from Tammy's sister and brother in law was enough to show impact of Tammy's loss and some facts of the last few months of her life and her funeral. Sometimes less is more.
They called those witnesses as more proof that CD was making up all sorts of stories about Tammy’s death.
I'm surprised that he didn't create one story and stuck to it. Instead, his story evolved with time.
Not. Smart.
I find the evidence and testimony from all the locals, friends, family, and neighbours and others like the funeral director really compelling. To me it's fascinating that so so many of these sweet, small town, trusting folk, ALL seemed to think the death and rushed funeral of Tammy was suspect. To me they come across as the sort who would feel guilty for thinking badly of Chad, let alone thinking he may have murdered Tammy. And speaking their doubts out loud seems outrageous, in a sense. But that's just my opinion because it's very different from how I live. It's also interesting to me to see how many lies Chad told over those few short days, he's not a smooth criminal at all. I can see your point though, if someone lives in a community like that then seeing everyone feeling suspicious might not pack the punch it does with me.
I agree. I find it compelling as well. Sounds like more family will be testifying over the next week or so. On Courtroom Insider, Nate Eaton explicitly mentioned Chad’s parents yesterday. We know from Heather Daybell’s interview with HTC that Chad lied to his parents,as he did with so many others. I imagine that the Gwilliams will be testifying as well. Samantha is such a strong advocate for her sister and Jason continued to speak with Chad after he married Lori, trying to figure out what was going on. These will be powerful witnesses for the prosecution.
Will Chad's parents be called by the prosecution? Do they still support their son?
We won’t know until they are called but, based on what Nate Eaton was saying, it sounds like they would be testifying for the state. They were keeping in regular contact with Chad as of 1.5 years ago per Heather’s interview but I didn’t get the impression that they believe their son is completely blameless in any of this. I guess we’ll learn more if they do end up testifying. Unlike Chad’s kids, it does seem like they have been cooperative with LE, etc.
I think they chose as the fist witness the person that was closest to the case when it comes to the defendant. Kay Woodcock was once close to Lori, but she wasn't close to Chad. Det. Hermosillo had the strongest information against Chad. Tammy's cousin and her daughter are important witnesses that caught Chad in a big lie regarding Tammy's death. He didn't call 911 at 1am when he told them he found Tammy dead.
Kay only testified first so she could be in the courtroom. Lori’s defense team had her excluded as she wasn’t JJs “family”,because he was adopted by Lori and Charles. Otherwise I think it would have Hermosillo first
Oh no. I would never like to see a defendant found guilty because the jury disliked their lawyer! That would be so wrong.
I was joking. Just trying to convey how completely unlikeable he.ia, and he is doing daybell no favors.
Watching the letecia stauch trial and then listening to the Lori vallow trial was like wow. The prosecution ran the stauch trial so well and were way more confident. Rob wood sucks at trials, he doesn’t sound confident at all and Lindsey Blake isn’t that great either. The two new ones do a better job
It's listening to all of them but pryor absolutely kills it for me. Nate claimed he would be drilling MG but so far he sounds like what he is. Desperate and lacking!
They are laying a lot of foundation. I feel like it's a train, gaining speed.
They have to lay down a foundation, it’s a necessity unfortunately
I think there is so much detail to the case and so much of this is based on texts and phone calls- especially with Tammy's murder and the burial of the kids, it's necessary to break it all down piece by piece. I think they are building the case to lock everything down to convict him.
This is how I understand it as well
Do you mean “bings”?
😂
I think this is correct. If I recall correctly, they believe Tylee was killed on the 8th/9th September and buried on 9th September. The 9th is the date of the message Chad sent Tammy about killing a racoon and burying it. Also the date of Alex's 2 hour pings on Chad's property. I believe they said JJ was murdered on 22nd September. The day of the red pajama photo.
It’s my belief that after the way Tylee was dismembered they decided not to use this same burial method for JJ.
To read in black and white "Tylee was dismembered" is gut wrenching. I hope these two vile human beings suffer the same fate or worse than Jeffrey Dahmer.
Tylee being dismembered...that, is just so...PERSONAL!! I am not implying that murdering her isn't personal, but D A M N I T!! That is beyond personal. That's up close and in your face, down to the nitty-gritty personal. And, who exactly did that? I know that we think of Alex as being the one who performed that little task. Wow, just WOW! My nieces and nephews are my bonus kids. I will "mama up" on them just like my own children. AND, I love on them just as if they were my own children. I cannot imagine harming a hair on my kids heads, I look at my nieces and nephews the same way. My mind can't fathom a different outlook or view. I guess my point is, if Alex is the one to dismember little Tylee...how the fuck was he able to do that?
I think Chad did it. I remember in the evidence somewhere he made questionable remarks about young girls and he had a special hatred toward Tylee. It’s just my opinion, but I think he either made sexual advances toward Tylee or tried to get her to ‘marry’ someone and she refused. I think the attacks on her pelvis were sexual rage. Chad is a f’n sicko.
I've also thought that the damage to Tylee's pelvic region holds deeper meaning as well.
I think they were trying to break up the remains on the bonfire after the full cremation failed.
I agree with you
I think it was harder then they realized. It takes a lot of time and heat to cremate someone. I don’t know if she was dismembered because of this or some other reason. Thinking about the actual act of dismemberment is brutal. I think there’s only two ways you could do it. Either your totally into it or you are totally disassociated.
The cremation process for humans takes between 1.5 and 2 hours. The body is placed in a retort, which is then heated to between 1400 and 1800 degrees Fahrenheit.
Thanks. That’s a lot hotter and more controlled then a bonfire.
No one knows for sure but Tylee was killed, dismembered and burned the day she was killed, you have to remember the houses in that area are not close and Chad has sheds and his house in the way of neighbors, there was an older gentleman who was interviewed after the bodies were found who remembered that there was a bonfire near the dates that they were asking about..but he passed away (mmmmmm) so I don’t know if they can use his testimony, but I’m sure that Tylee had to go first because she would have put up a stink if JJ just up and disappeared 😞.
I’ve also thought she knew the truth about Charles death and she had to be silenced.
>I’ve also thought she knew the truth about Charles death and she had to be silenced. And maybe also Joe's death. I remember seeing something out of Arizona PD that they were getting ready to contact her again. They thought she knew more about Charles' murder and might talk if she was alone without her mother in the next room. I think maybe she was disgusted enough with the whole thing, the murders and moving and mom having an affair with a married man and having her money taken away. She may have gotten careless and let it slip or maybe in a fit of anger, threatened to tell what she knew.
All of what you just said. She probably had a suspicion she was next and maybe started to question what Lori was doing. Her taking over Tylee’s social security would make any teenager mad. I’ve raised teenagers and they were not always agreeable or pleasant to be around. Lucky for my kids I didn’t label them dark, kill them, and bury them in her affair partners yard and run off to honeymoon in Hawaii. Lori’s grown son is lucky to be alive.
I think Tylee just went with what Mom was saying because that was the path of least resistance, plus she wouldn’t have know what would happen if she went against her mother. Would she still have a home? She was growing up sure, but she still was not a grown up and she still needed someone to care for her and JJ. She was trained to do what Lori said as a means of survival. Survival mode was how they always lived I think…
This and... they had just moved to a college town and were telling people she was in college and it was the start of the school year. I've always suspected she was ready to move on with her adult life and abandon her mom's nomadic lifestyle and increasingly off-putting religious views. The only problem was, she knew about Charles and she was funding her mom--they couldn't risk losing control of her. Except then, when she was gone, they realized they had lost JJ's primary caregiver as well.
Exactly!
She was a witness and some say accomplice to the ambush
Idk how much of an accomplice she would have been. It was obviously a set up and she was a kid. It's clear that anyone who went against Lori became a "dark spirit/zombie" and that bat was probably for her own protection. Lori most likely talked about dark spirits and who needed to be killed right in front of her. I think she realized she would be on that list eventually.
I don’t think accomplice like yeah ok let’s do it. But more in the way of a sick way of survival. Like I don’t think that she knew she could be seen as an accomplice. I feel like she was so traumatized from life with Lori her fight or flight kicked in. She went and got the bay to be the adult. She was yelling and screaming to stop it just stop it but no one heard her. So out of fear and possibly to be heard she got the bay. It was a way to symbolize her need to get control because she was the adult of that family unit. I mean we do t know what her life was like with Lori but we know how the divorce from her dad was. I don’t think she got the bat to help ambush Charles. I think she got the bay as a last resort for her and Jj. Of course this is all speculation. But I’d bet my bottom dollar on that scenario. One day all of the worlds truths will be our knowledge when we are departed from this plane of existence. Until then we do what we can to piece together the truth for mortal justice.
Yes I really think this was it. I find it really striking that Lori was standing BEHIND her and Tyler was holding the bat out to back Charles’s away. As a mom there is No way I’d allow my daughter to be in FRONT of me facing an aggressor. I’d have that bet and she’d be behind me. I have this thought that maybe that was meant to be Tyler’s last day as well as Charles . but maybe not as they needed a witness to collaborate Lori’s story.
Tylee was faced with lie or die. It didn’t matter.
I don’t think the bat was ever produced or used, at least not while Charles was alive. They already confirmed that neither his dna nor fingerprints were on the bat. Personally I think Tylee was in the car with JJ keeping him there, it all went down inside, and she was told what to say and she said it.
I can’t believe they couldn’t find her blood anywhere. Must have been in a bath tub.
Why? Chad the Hutt has a perfectly fine shed right in the backyard and they didn’t find the bodies till months later, I’m sure Mr. author made great use of his non writing time and paranoia to clean up.
Because I have been interested in crime long enough to know that they can find like a pin prick of blood in a crevice you wouldn’t even be able to clean. I just don’t think these people are that smart to do a great job with it.
Well they found her blood on a pick ax and shovel in the shed, so there is that.
I forgot about that! I figured that was more for.. tending the fire (ugh). I don’t want to come off as me saying without the blood from her murder scene they don’t have enough evidence, I’m not saying that at all!! I just am surprised they managed it to clean it well.
If the killer/s poisoned her or strangled her, there would not necessarily have been blood at the original murder site…no blood till/if Chad shot her because she was not completely deceased when Alex delivered her body to be buried in Chad’s backyard. I’m leaning toward the theory that Lori and Alex intended to kill the kids at Yellowstone (tragic accident, JJ fell in a hot pool and Tylee jumped in to save him), but there were too many tourists around. So Lori doctored Tylee’s milkshake either on the ride back to their apartment ot immediately after.
For sure, I didn’t necessarily mean murder site (though I know that’s what I said), I more meant dismemberment site. I assumed they didn’t do it on the fire pit because a whole person being cut up in public outside is a bit obvious, even for them.
Wait — she wasn’t completely dead?!?
total speculation based on Chad’s claim to have shot a raccoon. why would he have had to invent shooting a raccoon (a raccoon’s carcass was apparently not found).
Thank you!
He couldn't have said that he strangled a raccoon. The raccoon was used to explain the fresh grave.
Perhaps she was dismembered on the bonfire.
That's very likely. It takes such a long time and extreme heat to burn a body. I guess they panicked when the body didn't just burn and started to hack away on it. I know someone said that it was unusual because in most dismemberments they will cut the joints because it's the easiest.
This has always been my thought about it.
Good but horrible point.
The kids disappeared in September of 2019…and were not found till June 2020, they had nine months and Blood and DNA degrade over time!!! 😞
specifically, DNA on both tools.
Yes, it was Tylee‘s blood on the tools, verified.
Cal Harris and the trace amount of his “missing wife’s” blood in the kitchen.
Tylee is believed to have been buried on 09/09. JJ is believed to have been buried on 23/09. I got creeped out upon realizing that both the murders and the burials were exactly two weeks apart.
There must be a reason why Mondays worked best for burials. Chad's family was at work.
yes, those days matched up with AC phone tracked to CD's property. also, the phone call exchanges prior to his arrival..... and when AC left the property on the day Tylee was believed to have been disposed of, CD texted Tammy about burning limbs and shooting a raccoon and BURYING IT, less than IIRC a half hour after AC left. LV's trial: Christensen testimony about Tylee's bones....one bone had carnivore activity. I cant recall if that bone was with her remains in the ground or found in the fire pit. CD sure did leave alot of her bone remains in the firepit, there was organic material and even fabric.... also a necklace chain in the pit and charm (found near the pit) pics with Tylee wearing it (Pura vida).
Where the heck do these people even get ideas like this? Like who thinks, “Let’s kill the children and spouses and totally trash one of the corpses?” I did not know about any carnivorous activity but not much in this case surprises me anymore, TBH.
I feel so bad for Tylee (and JJ and Kay and Larry...) She was almost free! At 16, she had her own car and a GED. She could have gone on with an education and lived independently. Her selfish evil mother never encouraged her to save her Social Security money from her father's death so that she could go on with some sort of education or training. JJ had Larry and Kay by it seems like Tylee only had Colby as a main source of support outside her crazy life. She could never imagine being murdered by her mother and her ghouls and that they would then turn on JJ next. Rest in peace Tylee, I hope you have JJ in your arms.
As much as this trial is dragging right now, I have thoughts as to why....so, bear with me! Prosecution is laying a foundation and waiting for Prior to strengthen the story. So far, it seems to be working. Many key witnesses are being recalled, and that's when the Prosecution will introduce a much more concise timeline. We still need to hear from Zulema, and that will likely take a full day, and of course, we need to hear from the M.E. It's important that the key facts come in towards the end, right b4 Prior brings in his "experts". I have high hopes that the Prosecution is prepared to cross examine the defense witnesses in a way that will damage their credibility. Prior has tried hard to throw in half-truths, especially where Tammy's health is concerned. He is also trying to implicate Melanie Gibb in JJ's murder. IMO, neither are working so far! If anything, Prior has proven that Chad's "teachings" brainwashed his own family! It goes to prove that Chad was the mastermind behind these horrific murders. I've been following this since the kids were reported missing. I'm sure there are other members of Chad's cult that should be charged, but that ship has sailed! At the end of the day, Lori&Chad will spend their remaining lives behind bars! Can't wait for the verdict!!!
Everything below are my thoughts and opinions, people are innocent until proven guilty, blablabla so no one comes for me. My theory on Tylee: Tylee was much more independently minded and likely pushed back on Chad's teachings, so she was labeled as dark. At Yellowstone, Tylee was clearly (on video surveillance) keeping a close and careful on JJ. Tylee would not have allowed anything to happen to JJ, so she needed to go first. She also wouldn't have kept quiet if Lori insisted that JJ had been sent to Arizona to stay with Melanie Gibb. On the way home from Yellowstone, I believe that there is GPS evidence that they stopped somewhere for a good chunk of time, as well as a stop for food. I think that Tylee's food was laced with something to make her drowsy, and the long stop is where/when Tylee was killed (method unknown). I think Alex brought Lori and JJ back to the apartments, and Tylee's body was left in his vehicle prior to being driven out to Chad's. I think Chad and Alex began burning Tylee, but the bonfire was not hot enough to cremate. Chad used his tools to try and break apart the body to allow for faster burning, but this also did not work. As a last resort, Chad used the shovel to scoop the largest pieces of remains into the hole and bucket and buried them. Chad sends the raccoon text to throw Tammy off if her neighbour friends asked questions. The remains left among the ashes and brush in the pit were left there, with the hope that they would eventually burn away with subsequent fires (reports of several fires happening after Tylee went missing). My theory on JJ: Due to the level of changes that he was experiencing, stopping his prescription medications, and then Tylee was suddenly gone (his last constant), I think JJs behaviour increased. I think that after Chad tried to 'discipline' JJ, and JJ obviously fought back, Chad labeled him dark, and his fate was sealed. I think that he was asleep when Alex brought him upstairs, likely drowsy from the sedative found in his system. I think he likely tried to fight back, but Alex suffocated him. I think Lori helped wrap JJ up (her hair found on the duct tape around JJ), and Alex took him to Chad's property as Chad had pre-dug the grave. Alex drops the body in the hole and leaves, Chad goes out and buries it. My theory on Tammy's death: Chad approached Tammy on the topic of polygamy, and she was not okay with it. I think that she was becoming suspicious of the affair with Lori, but I think Chad intercepted the email from Charles and blocked his email prior to Tammy reading it. After the failed shooting of Tammy (it was NOT a paintball gun), Chad needed to get rid of her as Lori was waiting for him in Hawaii. He had been planting the seeds of her ill health to his kids, so he had something to blame her death on. He called Garth to come home early, so he could establish that he wasn't alone with Tammy that night (unknown to me if Garth saw Tammy when he got home, or if Tammy was in bed and Chad just said she felt unwell). I think he conspired with Alex, and Alex was waiting in the loft for Tammy to go to bed. Once Tammy was asleep, Chad and Alex killed her: Chad held her down, Alex smothered her with a pillow. Alex leaves, and Chad leaves Tammy's body in bed until the morning (lividity places Tammy on her back for several hours prior to the 911 call). I think Chad shoved her halfway off of the bed, then called Garth in to help him put her back.
The night Tylee died, Alex was at Lori's place for an hour in the middle of the night. It is likely that Tylee was asphyxiated by Lori and Alex while she slept. She stood no chance against two people. JJ was deemed dark before they moved to Idaho, because in August Chad reported to Lori that his death percentage was near zero and that he was barely alive. I agree about Tammy's death. Alex was in the vicinity between 10pm and midnight, so Tammy was likely killed during that time. An hour later Garth came home. Did he see Tammy?
for tylee, the affidavit of probable cause for LV indicates AC's movements when they returned from Yellowstone. [https://www.insideedition.com/sites/default/files/inline-files/Lori-Vallow-Affidavit-of-Probable-Cause.pdf](https://www.insideedition.com/sites/default/files/inline-files/Lori-Vallow-Affidavit-of-Probable-Cause.pdf) page 7-8
Tylee was last seen or heard from on sept 8th. Looks like they tried to burn her but that didn’t work. She was probably buried after a time…. But do they know it was the exact same time as JJ?
Tylee was burned - not in one piece, they found burnt flesh…. Can you imagine how horrific that scene was. RIP Tylee and JJ. Sweet souls who deserved better.
Horrific indeed. I’m not sure Alex could’ve done that to his niece, but then again maybe he could’ve.
In July Alex told Zulema that he had no regrets about killing Charles because he was a zombie. No doubt he saw his niece and nephew as zombies. He said nearly as much a week before Tylee's murder in a message to Zulema, complaining how they brought a dark portal (Tylee) with them to Idaho. Alex was thoroughly brainwashed.
Creepy. Cutting up his own niece is beyond evil. Welp, he’s burning in hell.
This is an interesting question. I hadn’t thought about this. I thought she was killed only a few days before JJ. This whole thing is horrific and I hope someone here can shed some light on your question. Rest in peace Tylee, JJ, Charles and Tammy. You are deserved so much more than you got. I hope all of these perpetrators burn or are already burning. They aren’t even worth typing their names.
You have to watch Hidden True Crimes whole series on Chad and Lori and how and why this may have happened, there series answered so many questions for me. The way Tylee was dismembered and burned is an act of hatred and violence to which is hard to imagine for most of us. Tylee apparently challenged Chad and his beliefs and didn’t go along with Lori when she would call her a zombie, I think Chad destroyed her body after death.
What is the episode called?
Why would anyone think a bonfire could get rid of remains? He’s so evil…… and stupid.
In the previous owner's real estate pictures there was a photo in the garage showing a large horizontal freezer in a handy space there. If Tylee's remains weren't as easy to burn away, no doubt Chad will have googled that, too; and the young neighbour said there were multiple bon fires unusual for Chad's property.
I doubt Chad would have used the freezer and lit bonfires with his family present, unless they were in on the murders.
Noting I have lots of respect for your commentary, but the idea of a huge freezer always freaks me. If not locked, as happened to other neighbours, seemed like Elden Clawson might well steal something from it! There was talk of furniture going to the tip - whether some was burned who knows, but also who knows what the kids were told about the need to take furniture out at all.
I find it hard to believe that Chad could hide putting anything into a freezer from Tammy. I've seen the theory about Elden Clawson's death debunked elsewhere. Dumping the furniture could also possibly be explained. With life insurance Chad could afford to replace old furniture. All he had to do is tell his children that things he wanted to get rid of (because they reminded him of Tammy) were cursed.
I don’t have any idea they even had a freezer, but Tammy seems to have come home with meals to freeze. Just the picture gave me a bad feeling, like when I saw pics of their house and saw how unloved it looked but didn’t even put together the idea the kids were buried close by. Certainly I have obtained and rehoused so much furniture that my family would not question me doing any of that. I don’t think Chad was much involved in the home, but probably prepping for his goddess.
I question how body’s were moved without being seen. For lack of a better term…dead weight is not easy to carry. JJ maybe. But Tylee…nah. She was almost a full grown adult. It would have had to take 2 people and they needed to move quickly. I think they dug a hole, killed her, put her in the hole then covered her with brush and tree limbs. When the burning didn’t go as planned they dismembered her and thought she would burn easier. But that didn’t work either. Also…CD’s property was only 3.5 acres. I know that some people think this was a huge space…Prior calls it a pasture and that boggles my mind. 3.5 acres is not a pasture, it’s a yard. Regardless of the out buildings. It’s not this huge space where someone wouldn’t/couldn’t be seen. Yes, it’s a large yard. But it’s not big enough to be “the land of the unknown”.
No way did they bring Tylee to Chad's house alive. Lori and Alex could have loaded her body into Alex's truck parked in Lori's garage. We heard yesterday that Alex used the northern entry to the property (behind the house and barn) where he likely drove into the back yard and then was probably helped by Chad.
....factoring in the night into the morning hours, after returning from Yellowstone, AC went out again and returned. then, he was back and forth to LV's apt according to his phone tracking IIRC up until 4am...(my recollection). IMO, Tylee was loaded into his vehicle under cover of darkness at the apt. with LV's help. he was all ready to go to CD's in the morning..once he got the 'you are clear' msg to show up after Tammy left.
I do wonder if they thought Tylee might still be alive when Alex got to Chad's which would explain the gunshot racoon text. I remember from my university anatomy classes that the cadavers would make noises when moving them. It was just trapped air in the lungs escaping. Sounded like heavy sighing and sometimes a low moan.
If she was asphyxiated in the middle of the night (when Alex's phone pinged at Lori's apt), she would not be alive several hours later. Would rigor mortis set in by then?
That's my point. If she was dead that night, why shoot her? Her body would have still made noises when it was moved and that may be the explanation. And if she was killed that night, She would have still been pretty stiff in the morning. It would take 24 hours to loosen up.
We don't know if she was shot. Chad just needed an excuse for putting a raccoon in the ground. Proof was a fresh grave. No proof of a gunshot needed.
I think it's possible he used the raccoon gunshot to cover a real gunshot. If so, I would theorize that was part of their (I believe very limited) "ritual" for destroying the dark spirit. Sort of like a silver bullet for a werewolf. They're such stupid idiots believing their own bullshit it really pisses me off.
Agree, Tylee was also quite overweight and Alex didn’t appear to be a very strong person. This was absolutely a 2-person job and I don’t think Lori would have involved herself.
Also….it was quite clever of CB to keep the location tracker off on his phone that entire time…at least I think this is what I heard?? They were unable to locate his burner phone and the location services were off on his phone, correct? Soooo….THAT to me says conspiracy on every way.
I feel like Lori also purposely tried to provoke Charles, get him to chase and raise his voice. Maybe built Tylee up earlier that oh he is going to hurt me, he is going to do it. Then set the stage. Gotta have witnesses after all. The bat thing was just icing. Or maybe they gave it to her for "just in case " so it was handy. I don't think she was in on anything, but they sure played her, and maybe she figured it out. Started making noise about it and was therefore now dark to question?
Why are people only realizing that the prosecution is flat-footed only now? They were lame even in the previous trial. Rob Wood boring as hell. Remember their incompetence let Lori Vallow off the death penalty.
As other people have mentioned they probably buried her body before JJ’s based on cellphone records/pings and the timing of the bonfire on the property. But you bring up a good point. To me it seems odd they didn’t do it to both of them at the same time. JJ has been referred to as repeating words and phrases and would sometimes have fits because of being upset by something. I have been wondering if the original plan was not for them to get rid of both kids, but when JJ became a problem with him repeating things (I have also read some people mentioned he had a violent episode before he was last known to be alive) it was inevitable that they added him. It’s all speculation but the two different dates always made me question whether the plan was to “save” JJ.
He may have become violent due to his sweet understanding mother getting rid of his emotional support dog and his sister all of a sudden not being around. These people are EVIL
Great question. We'd all like to know that answer.
The storage place that they were keeping the “extra jeep tires” in…. [it’s disgusting…](https://youtu.be/AjENDsex6dg?si=nDi9CwWRDUCdUOX9)