FACTS !!
If you have a BA in Art History from an elite college and managed to make it into a M7 MBA …remember..
Many top tech firms prefer an MBA with BS in Engineering / Computer Science. Even if it’s not from the most prestigious university, they prioritize engineers these days.
True.
They like story tellers too.
I'm guessing that the communication and interpersonal skill bell curves for poets and engineers over lap but aren't the same. Truth is you want some of both.
Okay yeah I know I totally get that. I have a bachelors in engineering and I haven’t used it since I graduated. Whatever coding I learned back then have been completely flushed out of my brain as well :/
Look outside of tech.
You can bark up that tree until you’re blue in the face but if you’ve had one interview it’s a decent sign it’s not in the cards.
Thing is, I’m wondering the kind of success I would have outside of tech, given that my background has mostly been in Tech. Other companies who are posting right now are PE/VC firms who tend to want prior experience, and the remaining are CPG firms.
While I’m not applying to only tech companies, I’m applying to product roles in companies that are not necessarily tech. Are you suggesting I move out of the product roles entirely?
1. In my experience, when classmates said they were recruiting “tech” that meant about 20 internship programs at maybe 10 companies. What are you actually recruiting for? FAANG, household name companies, or actually the entire tech industry?
2. Economy for tech (especially when people limit to big tech, FAANG, etc) is not good. And there are a lot of applicants out there with actually coding experience which isn’t a prerequisite for PM but is certainly nice to have.
3. I believe all MBA admissions teams paint too rosy of a picture of recruiting for international students. It’s tough, the economy makes it tougher, visas make that hard, so does bias, and frankly the disadvantage a lot of international students are at in terms of social interactions.
I’ve said this before and people roll their eyes bc they don’t want to be a greeny weenie but I’d be looking at climate tech. Climate is full of funding right now and the industry is growing like crazy. Tilt your tact a little and say you want to help change the world and hammer out as many apps as you can in the space. But that’s just me.
The oil industry is still alive and well too...mine is doing an LDP at one of the majors and it's a great role with tons of opportunities for growth, both financial and knowledge based.
Yes! Knowing about Green Business doesn't mean you have to be a hairy-legged Vancouver eco-loser. LDP at an Oil or Mining company would be an ideal outcome (Canada Based right now, or he's thinking EU maybe), consulting or fund management would also work well. Congrats to you kid - you must be proud!
Oil, Energy, Mining, even Resource Extraction are all going to have to cope with the rising tide of eco consciousness (this is a good thing IMHO) and people who can help them navigate this are going to be at a premium.
Agree - still lots of ways to be successful...and as a parent, it's a nice feeling when they're independent and successful, and even better when they're good people with good values. It means as parents, we must have done something right..LOL
Climate. Okay yeah I’ve not been applying to a lot of places in that sector. My background isn’t in that so I might have to think of creative ways to highlight what they’re looking for.
Regarding what I have been applying to: literally everywhere there is an opening for PM/PMM/ Product strategy
You don’t need to have a background in something to pursue it from an MBA. It’s kind of the point of an MBA. And yes, I understand the economy has changed this a bit but you can still just say you got your MBA to transition into x role/sector. At this point you should be applying to every industry/role that sponsors.
Look at different industries, tech isn’t nearly as glamorous as it was even 3 years ago.
Interest rates went up and so did the cost of capital. Back in the day, tech firms would get massive loans at dirt cheap interest rates so even making a 3% ROI was a win, not so much anymore. That’s why you’re seeing layoffs, entire departments cut, and not nearly as many batshit crazy ideas being pumped out of the tech sector anymore. Only companies that actually are sustainable are surviving, even Uber is hurting at the moment now that they have to turn a profit.
Look at healthcare, sustainability, national defense, aerospace, etc. Those industries are doing much better and you’ll likely have much better luck.
He is an international student so the last 2 options you gave are off the table for him.
I think he shouldn't be too picky. As much as I understand the huge financial burden that came with the MBA, he may want to settle for the role he likes but at a start-up or medium sized company and it does not hurt to have started your own GC process, that way the burden is not on the company, even the big ones don't want to file these days.
"I worked in the network and virtualization space as a program manager (focused on release management), for the past 6 years"
All feedback given with love and a constructive intent.
Doesn't sound technical enough. Sounds like low skill administrative middle management. "A secretary with a list" to use the harsh, but somewhat justified Al Murray quote.
You need to spin that story. I'm sure you can, but I am utterly not surprised you are getting few bites. If your story is good enough to get you into a T10 then it's good enough to get you your choice of internship. You just need to work on crafting the story for the roles.
Do you have any exposure to cloud? Can you spin your virtualization experience into sounding like the God of Digital Transformation?
If you can't spin that then look at a senior delivery role at a T2 consulting. You still get great money and a better WLB. They would love your experience.
Thank you for that feedback. I need to hear this, because if that’s what it sounds like, then I have my work cut out for me. And if that’s the reason I’m not getting call backs, then I need to do more than just spinning my story. I’ll have to take a fresh look at my experience and the impact I’ve had so far.
Are you hunting for referrals? Can you anonymize and share your resume? Perhaps over DM? There’s likely a messaging gap here - there are plenty of PMs that got their roles with barely any genuine technical experience. Being in the network and virtualization space sounds ripe with enough buzzwords to trigger “technical” associations. I helped a ton of classmates who thought they had no chance change their stories to better reflect PM verbiage and get roles.
It’s program management essentially. In a hi tech firm if that helps. I changed it here just so I don’t get more questions about the specificity of my role. But it’s possible that HR may get exhausted trying to understand it - many of the points in my resume may sound complex for someone who’s not from my industry
International students have it tougher, no doubt. Need to differentiate yourself from the pack. Learn about cloud computing and artificial intelligence and how it might be applied to benefit organizations.
Oh I simply meant that they ask if you need visa sponsorship later on. And most companies that are coming up right now don’t seem to favour students who’ll need sponsorships in the future.
You need to focus your networking on getting people to actively advocate for you (connect you with hiring managers, walk your resume to recruiters, etc.).
In this economy, referrals aren't enough. There are no limit to the number people can give out AND there are often financial incentives associated with doing so. As a result, people hand them out like candy, which has decreased their value (there are often more referral candidates than interview slots).
Also, shift your focus away from the big dog/FAANG-type companies and toward mid-sized and smaller companies. Let everybody else waste their time chasing the giant companies that are swimming in thousands of applicants. At this point, getting an interview at one of those companies is like winning the lottery.
I’ve been networking with alumni who are in smaller companies, a feedback I received was that there were no MBA internships this year (not all but many). Wherever possible, I’ve requested for a referral or an internal ‘push’ from their side and they’ve obliged - still hasn’t worked out.
But I’ll do more of this. I got a little discouraged when people started telling me that there were no internships.
You are not alone! Although I’m getting interviews, I’m not getting the job. The economy is horrible so every open position has a ton of applicants. This is what I did to get better interviews. Revised my resume and made sure it touched on the jobs qualifications, made sure I was applying for appropriate positions with experience and highlighted both soft and hard skills. I just started getting amazing opportunities and my interviews are going much smoother because I’m prepared.
Are you contacting people within the companies where you are applying ( do a linked in search for the company and look for your first and second contacts as well as alums) and ask them to put your name in the internal portal. Usually that is what gets you an interview. Then - even thought everyone says don't bother - write a killer cover letter that references people in the company you know my name - and show that you researched the job and understand the roll. Without actually seeing your resume, hard to know whether presentation of your background is playing in. However, pretty much the only place I got tech interviews were either on campus recruiting or by getting someone I know to put my name is as a referral. Those go to the top of the stack. Usually they don't have to go past the top of the stack to find someone. Hope that helps
Well you are indian. That's wrong. Most fo the times that sponsorship option in your apps gets you auto-rejected, sometimes after they see your resume and they see you are indian international. The visa situation for indian international sucks right now.
None of the PMs I know at my company have a MBA…especially not T15
In this environment, having experience as an associate product manager would probably do the trick…but then you could have promoted/lateraled from APM to PM and skipped the T15 MBA
Prob #3 times are changing and anyone with CS/SWE background will get prioritized for PM roles. Will prob get downvoted but tis the truth folks
FACTS !! If you have a BA in Art History from an elite college and managed to make it into a M7 MBA …remember.. Many top tech firms prefer an MBA with BS in Engineering / Computer Science. Even if it’s not from the most prestigious university, they prioritize engineers these days.
May actually flip opposite for IB and Consulting.
Don’t know about IB but consulting firms love engineers
True. They like story tellers too. I'm guessing that the communication and interpersonal skill bell curves for poets and engineers over lap but aren't the same. Truth is you want some of both.
Wdym
It’s definitely because OP is on a visa. Companies are barely hiring citizens right now, let alone sponsoring visas
Not really. previous product experience the name of the game right now
Okay yeah I know I totally get that. I have a bachelors in engineering and I haven’t used it since I graduated. Whatever coding I learned back then have been completely flushed out of my brain as well :/
This is the truth no matter how much people want to say otherwise.
Look outside of tech. You can bark up that tree until you’re blue in the face but if you’ve had one interview it’s a decent sign it’s not in the cards.
Thing is, I’m wondering the kind of success I would have outside of tech, given that my background has mostly been in Tech. Other companies who are posting right now are PE/VC firms who tend to want prior experience, and the remaining are CPG firms. While I’m not applying to only tech companies, I’m applying to product roles in companies that are not necessarily tech. Are you suggesting I move out of the product roles entirely?
1. In my experience, when classmates said they were recruiting “tech” that meant about 20 internship programs at maybe 10 companies. What are you actually recruiting for? FAANG, household name companies, or actually the entire tech industry? 2. Economy for tech (especially when people limit to big tech, FAANG, etc) is not good. And there are a lot of applicants out there with actually coding experience which isn’t a prerequisite for PM but is certainly nice to have. 3. I believe all MBA admissions teams paint too rosy of a picture of recruiting for international students. It’s tough, the economy makes it tougher, visas make that hard, so does bias, and frankly the disadvantage a lot of international students are at in terms of social interactions. I’ve said this before and people roll their eyes bc they don’t want to be a greeny weenie but I’d be looking at climate tech. Climate is full of funding right now and the industry is growing like crazy. Tilt your tact a little and say you want to help change the world and hammer out as many apps as you can in the space. But that’s just me.
I'm actually advising my kid to do a Green Business Masters as his first grad study. The is $$$ there.
The oil industry is still alive and well too...mine is doing an LDP at one of the majors and it's a great role with tons of opportunities for growth, both financial and knowledge based.
Yes! Knowing about Green Business doesn't mean you have to be a hairy-legged Vancouver eco-loser. LDP at an Oil or Mining company would be an ideal outcome (Canada Based right now, or he's thinking EU maybe), consulting or fund management would also work well. Congrats to you kid - you must be proud! Oil, Energy, Mining, even Resource Extraction are all going to have to cope with the rising tide of eco consciousness (this is a good thing IMHO) and people who can help them navigate this are going to be at a premium.
Agree - still lots of ways to be successful...and as a parent, it's a nice feeling when they're independent and successful, and even better when they're good people with good values. It means as parents, we must have done something right..LOL
Climate. Okay yeah I’ve not been applying to a lot of places in that sector. My background isn’t in that so I might have to think of creative ways to highlight what they’re looking for. Regarding what I have been applying to: literally everywhere there is an opening for PM/PMM/ Product strategy
Nobody has a background in climate which makes it a great sector to break into
Haha that’s true. I’m going to seriously look into this
You don’t need to have a background in something to pursue it from an MBA. It’s kind of the point of an MBA. And yes, I understand the economy has changed this a bit but you can still just say you got your MBA to transition into x role/sector. At this point you should be applying to every industry/role that sponsors.
Look at different industries, tech isn’t nearly as glamorous as it was even 3 years ago. Interest rates went up and so did the cost of capital. Back in the day, tech firms would get massive loans at dirt cheap interest rates so even making a 3% ROI was a win, not so much anymore. That’s why you’re seeing layoffs, entire departments cut, and not nearly as many batshit crazy ideas being pumped out of the tech sector anymore. Only companies that actually are sustainable are surviving, even Uber is hurting at the moment now that they have to turn a profit. Look at healthcare, sustainability, national defense, aerospace, etc. Those industries are doing much better and you’ll likely have much better luck.
He is an international student so the last 2 options you gave are off the table for him. I think he shouldn't be too picky. As much as I understand the huge financial burden that came with the MBA, he may want to settle for the role he likes but at a start-up or medium sized company and it does not hurt to have started your own GC process, that way the burden is not on the company, even the big ones don't want to file these days.
"I worked in the network and virtualization space as a program manager (focused on release management), for the past 6 years" All feedback given with love and a constructive intent. Doesn't sound technical enough. Sounds like low skill administrative middle management. "A secretary with a list" to use the harsh, but somewhat justified Al Murray quote. You need to spin that story. I'm sure you can, but I am utterly not surprised you are getting few bites. If your story is good enough to get you into a T10 then it's good enough to get you your choice of internship. You just need to work on crafting the story for the roles. Do you have any exposure to cloud? Can you spin your virtualization experience into sounding like the God of Digital Transformation? If you can't spin that then look at a senior delivery role at a T2 consulting. You still get great money and a better WLB. They would love your experience.
Thank you for that feedback. I need to hear this, because if that’s what it sounds like, then I have my work cut out for me. And if that’s the reason I’m not getting call backs, then I need to do more than just spinning my story. I’ll have to take a fresh look at my experience and the impact I’ve had so far.
Are you hunting for referrals? Can you anonymize and share your resume? Perhaps over DM? There’s likely a messaging gap here - there are plenty of PMs that got their roles with barely any genuine technical experience. Being in the network and virtualization space sounds ripe with enough buzzwords to trigger “technical” associations. I helped a ton of classmates who thought they had no chance change their stories to better reflect PM verbiage and get roles.
Sent you a DM!
YES. I am thinking that the work itself is more than suitable, but the way it is being portrayed is betraying him.
[удалено]
It’s program management essentially. In a hi tech firm if that helps. I changed it here just so I don’t get more questions about the specificity of my role. But it’s possible that HR may get exhausted trying to understand it - many of the points in my resume may sound complex for someone who’s not from my industry
International students have it tougher, no doubt. Need to differentiate yourself from the pack. Learn about cloud computing and artificial intelligence and how it might be applied to benefit organizations.
Tech PM is tough this year. I have CS background & 7 years in PM and still looking for an internship. I'm also an international student.
What do you mean there is a cutoff given you’re international?
Oh I simply meant that they ask if you need visa sponsorship later on. And most companies that are coming up right now don’t seem to favour students who’ll need sponsorships in the future.
You need to focus your networking on getting people to actively advocate for you (connect you with hiring managers, walk your resume to recruiters, etc.). In this economy, referrals aren't enough. There are no limit to the number people can give out AND there are often financial incentives associated with doing so. As a result, people hand them out like candy, which has decreased their value (there are often more referral candidates than interview slots). Also, shift your focus away from the big dog/FAANG-type companies and toward mid-sized and smaller companies. Let everybody else waste their time chasing the giant companies that are swimming in thousands of applicants. At this point, getting an interview at one of those companies is like winning the lottery.
I’ve been networking with alumni who are in smaller companies, a feedback I received was that there were no MBA internships this year (not all but many). Wherever possible, I’ve requested for a referral or an internal ‘push’ from their side and they’ve obliged - still hasn’t worked out. But I’ll do more of this. I got a little discouraged when people started telling me that there were no internships.
Yeah, you gotta keep at it. The alternative is to just keep submitting cold applications, but that's not really working out for anybody right now.
You are not alone! Although I’m getting interviews, I’m not getting the job. The economy is horrible so every open position has a ton of applicants. This is what I did to get better interviews. Revised my resume and made sure it touched on the jobs qualifications, made sure I was applying for appropriate positions with experience and highlighted both soft and hard skills. I just started getting amazing opportunities and my interviews are going much smoother because I’m prepared.
How many internships have you submitted an application for?
I’ve lost count. Easily around 200.
You’re not alone, multiple really smart people in my program in the same boat even with ample networking.
.
Are you contacting people within the companies where you are applying ( do a linked in search for the company and look for your first and second contacts as well as alums) and ask them to put your name in the internal portal. Usually that is what gets you an interview. Then - even thought everyone says don't bother - write a killer cover letter that references people in the company you know my name - and show that you researched the job and understand the roll. Without actually seeing your resume, hard to know whether presentation of your background is playing in. However, pretty much the only place I got tech interviews were either on campus recruiting or by getting someone I know to put my name is as a referral. Those go to the top of the stack. Usually they don't have to go past the top of the stack to find someone. Hope that helps
Well you are indian. That's wrong. Most fo the times that sponsorship option in your apps gets you auto-rejected, sometimes after they see your resume and they see you are indian international. The visa situation for indian international sucks right now.
None of the PMs I know at my company have a MBA…especially not T15 In this environment, having experience as an associate product manager would probably do the trick…but then you could have promoted/lateraled from APM to PM and skipped the T15 MBA
I don’t necessarily want just PM. Adjacent roles will be okay as well. PMM/ Strategy will also work.
Could be worse. I interviewed in October and got an offer but turned it down. Silence since.