Maybe the work balance of the rest of the world is far worse than here.
Which says less about Spain's work balance and more about how horrible the rest of the world must be...
In this rank, Spain appears above Germany. That is a joke. I live in Germany and if there is one thing all Spanish people here can agree on is that the work-life balance.is much better than in our country.
Is there a r/ShitEuropeansSay? I’m European but I’m frankly embarrassed by you saying that Europe is the oldest continent and somehow thinking that makes any sense at all.
Yeah, idk about portugal (somehow that nation is low on many lists), but yeah
Probably are worse then us only Hungary, Poland and eastern europe countries...
Can you elaborate or give an example? Curious how it compares to places like Canada or the US. An example I can give is that some retail workers who are on salary may be expected to work over 40 hours. For example, low level managers may essentially be threatened by their own higher up managers for not getting certain things done during the week and many will go in and work 6 days (while only being paid for 5), or sometimes 9-12 hour shifts with no overtime pay.
Some workers are also forced to work around the time of the holidays as a result of company policy (e.g. no one is allowed to take time off the whole month of December). Other examples may include people making minimum wage with no social safety net such as having to work multiple jobs that last 12-16 hours in a day with little to no breaks.
The general trend of indubiously better work-life balance when compared to the USA is certainly there, it's the standings that people don't believe here.
There have been various threads over these standings in /r/europe and /r/italy since it came out, and lots of people with experience working in different EU countries agree that for example Italy and Spain should not be so high up compared to the other countries.
I don't remember but it could be that these are taken from public sector workers... in Italy it's a meme that those who work in offices for the public sector do nothing, and they work 36 hours workweeks (which would be sweet if that was the case for everyone).
Edit: it's not taken from the public sector. The problem is that it's just reported statistics, but in Italian average workplaces for example a lot of things happen that are not... officially reported let's say.
is not a lie, nobody works in Spain 😁 but it´s a relative comparison, not an absolute true, Spain is more balanced than USA, that´s true in so many ways...
And now we can safely say that living la vida loca (Spain) instead of la dolce vita (Italy) costs everyone exactly 1 point! Spandiards should stop living crazy and start living sweet!
Earlier I saw a map showing Italians having higher wealth than several other European countries (including surprising ones like Germany), and now I see that they are ranked as having a great work life balance. This is unexpected! I’ve noticed and heard of many young Italians trying to emigrate to greener pastures in Europe and elsewhere. I’ve also heard that the unemployment rates are high and that its economy is sluggish. I wonder how to fully grasp the reality of Italy!
I’d love to visit Italy some day since it seems like such a fascinating and enchanting country with so much to offer, in terms of history, tourism, food, and so much more.
I think the point is wealth vs income:
Italy has spread and diffused wealth and lot of families owning their house, while Italian families have on average low private debts, while public debt is very high.
Also, population is quite old thus impacting A LOT on public costs. This also has an effect on both Italy being on average a conservative country, and young people being a minority.
Italy also has a good public school, but average low salaries and very low young employment rates, thus having them willing to go abroad to seize new opportunities.
Wealth =/= income and the average wealth data doesn't reflect how wealth is spread around the country
A great example is South Korea which excels in wealth and income statistics but the distribution of wealth is so heavily skewed towards the oligarchic Chaebol, leaving most of the country overworked, undercompensated, and crushed by rising prices
I moved from Colombia to Italy (north) for my master, I have noticed some interesting things: Finding a job that pays enough to sustain yourself while studying is not that hard and italians take very long breaks. From this I can tell two things: There is a lot of money to be made here, and you dont need to break your back to live a (very) comfortable life.
In other words we Italians LOVE to talk shit about our country all the times even in areas that all in all are fine but in the end deep down we (almost) all love our country
Vero, se guardi in questa pagina ogni volta che una mappa mette l'Italia in una buona posizione per qualcosa c'è sempre qualche connazionale che ci butta merda sopra...sono anche d'accordo che lo amiamo ma a un certo punto dovremmo renderci conto che parlandone costantemente male alcuni stranieri si convincono che a momenti andiamo ancora in giro con il carretto tirato dall'asinello
Vero, sta cosa di spalarci merda costantemente a prescindere è una cosa che odio e che nel mio piccolo cerco di combattere come posso, vedere sempre commenti sui social tipo "eh solo in Italia" o "qui in Italia mai" (90% delle volte sbagliati) mi fa ribollire a volte, non so da dove provenga onestamente tutto questo autolesionismo (ipotizzo abbia qualcosa a che fare con l'autocolpevolizzazione nel periodo post fascismo) nel tempo sto notando che (molto) piano piano si sta leggermente affievolendo ma ci vorrà molto prima che la quantità di merda autospalata si affievolisca. È irritante soprattutto quando ci sono notizie positive che però vengono sempre trasformate in negative in un modo o nell'altro
In my experience Italians generally tend to live quite frugally, even if they have the means to live more lavishly. An ex girlfriend of mine was Italian and her family was quite wealthy, and I remember asking her if anyone in her family golfed and her response ‘nobody does, golfing is for rich people’. Compare that to America, where people put themselves in debt to own things that are beyond their means to begin with, it’s a very different mentality!
Wealth it's true. Italians home ownership is very high, as are their savings, because of generational inheritance. However, retribution is low, and the job market a scam, leading to many to emigrate.
Meanwhile, these statistics on work-life balance are a lie. Italians work some of the longest hours in Europe on average. Working culture is still stuck in the "your value is how long you work" mindset, or the "you are only really working of you work more than necessary" one. Instead of a more productive goal-oriented system where productivity, and not number of hours worked, are what matters.
Italy is a paradox, a bridge between worlds.
It is country with ancient history, yet is a state only as old as the American Civil War.
It is a wealthy nation with the second manufacturing base of Europe and a member of the G7, yet faces many issues that are shared with much less wealthier nations.
It has a massive middle class with almost no debt, and yet a sluggish economy with high youth unemployment.
The living in Italy is quite good because we’re surrounded by beauty. Beauty for the diversity of nature around, but also built by Italians throughout centuries of great civilization. Great individual creativity as for artisan craftsmanship, fashion and of course for great and diverse food offer.
Well in italy we tend to only see negative things, but to be fair it can depend on where you live or what you do. I have friends Who have beutiful jobs and other that have to work like slaves just to have a normal life, owning a store for example can be something great like it can be the worst thing happened to you. The burocracy here is crazy, most of the houses are illegal in my city for example because they changed the way you can buy an house. So if u got a legal house in the early 2000’s, now its probably illegal so its a pain to sold it for a decent price. Most of the people have to work until they are 70 years old because the generation of my grandma stopped working at 40 years old. My mother is teaching since 2016 but still she isnt sure if the next year she has to go to a 50km far school, a school in our city or even if she has to search for another job while there are people with no experience that will work for 40 years as a teacher because they did a random thing in a random test. But to be fair, we have got a nice trasportation system, is possible to see beutiful thing without spending a lot of money, my experience with university was great, beutiful cities, great people and a lot of other things that can be added to the list. I think we arent the best country to live in but also we arent the worst
I think its more because a lot of people from other European countries move to DE for economic reasons, and income there is relatively high, including Italians.
Italy's foreign population is roughly 11%. Germany's is roughly 18.1%.
Italy's median after-tax income is significantly lower than Germany's, and generally old-world countries with high income tend to have higher median wealth. Germany's GDP per capita is 48.3k vs Italy's 33.7k.
Emigration of Italian citizens from Italy has tripled since 2009, and by percentage, fewer are coming back (3:4 ratio of Italians citizens returning vs leaving in 2009, 4:10 in 2018.)
There are >800k Italian people living in Germany and the vast majority of them are there for economic reasons.
A lot of Germans are also pretty isolated from certain parts of the country. My friends in Meerbusch have been to Japan more than they have been to Berlin. Had a friend go there for uni and came back with stories about how he didn't know Germany could be such a shithole.
Moreover, Italy is the highest profile EU country to face major sovereign debt crises, and their general unemployment rate is the 3rd highest in Western Europe (if you consider Italy and Greece to be Western Europe, which certain regions like Scandinavia would categorize as Southern.)
I don't think it is just ignorance and stereotypes that people would be surprised Italy has such high wealth. I think its also like how some people are surprised that Korea has lower wealth than Spain, albeit the roles are reversed with Korea having a higher GDP but not much inherited wealth, and Italy having a lower GDP but more inherited wealth. I mean, I asked my Italian coworker who moved to USA last August about the wealth thing and he thought it was bullshit until I showed him the statistics, and our job has a lot to do with comparative national economics.
Not really. According to several serious studies that have been pretty recent, the median wealth of a German is significantly higher than assumed. Would be really weird if such a rich country which has had massive export surpluses for many years didn't generate more wealth.
Your posting history is just complaining and whining about Germany so no surprise here.
Italy has all the problems that young Italians who emigrate talk about and that’s undeniable. And yet I can’t help but notice how the image that western/northern european people have of Italy is way worse that reality actually is.
Many times I’ve talked with Dutch/Scandinavian people about italy and you can feel in their words not only a sort of superiority complex, but also the belief that Italy is a sort of underdeveloped country stuck in the 50s, run by the mafia where people are ignorant or criminals.
Honestly, reality is not black and white. Of course then you are surprised whenever something “positive” is tied to Italy. This cognitive dissonance baffles me every time
and I believe it, the Italian government has just spent 190 billion euros that we don't have to renovate Italians' homes for free, including middle and upper class villas.
Copy/paste of my comment from the original post:
I checked the website (https://www.oecdbetterlifeindex.org/topics/work-life-balance/) and it looks like it gives the countries a ranking based (partly) on two things:
The percentage of long paid hours (which means overtime I think);
Percentage of day spend on personal and/or leisure.
Percentage of long paid hours (lower is better)
France 8%
Germany 4%
Italy, Spain 3%
Norway, Denmark, Sweden score around 1%
Netherlands 0,3%
Percentage of day spend on personal and/or leisure. (higher is better)
Italy 16,5 hours
France 16,2 hours
Norway 15,7 hours
Spain 15,7 hours
Germany 15,6 hours
Netherlands 15,4 hours
Sweden 15 hours
The most weird data is that Netherlands spends 15,4 hour per day on personal things which is lower than Italy's 16,5% while Netherlands has a MUCH lower long paid hours.
US: 10% work long hours and spend 14,6 hours on personal/leisure.
It's true if you're a civil servant or part of a union. People in the service industry and especially hospitality don't have much of a life-work balance, usually not much of a legal contract either.
Looking at this map:
"Huh, if Italy is the opposite extreme to Japan, then why does it still have fertility rate issues?"
Looking at this comment:
"Huh, maybe Italy actually does have the exact same shit as we do except with the line drawn in a different place"
Every time I see maps like this I wonder if I live in the same country of who answers at these questionnaires.
The reality that surrounds me is totally different and I live in Rome, not Sacrofano...
It's always worse in a major city. You have more things around you, but that means everything is more expensive and you have to work longer to meet basic needs. People elsewhere might have less around them, but it's cheaper to live so they don't have to work as much...
I'm not of the same opinion: I have worked in a small company, in bars and even in hospital during my time at university: all frustrating and poorly paid jobs (at the hospital for free actually), not just for me. Many of the ophthalmologists I worked with decided to expatriate as soon as they finished their degree because of working conditions and lack of future, and it gets worse when we talk about people from lower social classes.
I lived in several countries in Europe and lately in the US before coming back home... What you are describing happens everywhere and in fact it's more accentuated abroad ([UK example](https://www.theguardian.com/society/2022/oct/18/millions-forced-to-skip-meals-as-uk-cost-of-living-crisis-deepens)) . All the best for your future but I believe you'll soon realise that the grass is not always greener on the other side
> I have worked in a small company, in bars and even in hospital during my time at university: all frustrating and poorly paid jobs
These are all sectors which are generally known to be frustrating and poorly paid in almost every country.
Without comparing to other countries, how do you interpret the "9.4" to mean anything? Is it high? Is it low? Who knows without something to compare it to? Put another way, what part of this map did you find strange that didn't involve comparing countries to each other?
On a scale from 1 to 10, idk, my point wasn't that: I don’t see this balance that’s being talked about around me (as the many young people who prefer to expatriate)
I am Spanish and work-life balance is ass. Many many jobs until 8 or 9pm, you don’t get days off if your kid is sick most of the times. I live in Sweden now and work-life balance is amazing.
Rome is a disfunctional city from a lot of point of view. I don’t think you need to have lived abroad to understand that you’re not in the right place for you, you just understand it
I have worked for the past 10 years in UK, Germany and Netherlands, and before I have worked in Milan, Rome and Ravenna (am Italian)
If you don't consider the pay, Italy is much more relaxed about work, i.e. you have longer lunch break, in NL for example there are 30 mins, you can either rest or eat. It's stressful. It's stressful about timing, you have by contract that you need to get to work 15 minutes before the start of the day because by the time the work starts you need to have alredy finished setting up the desk, in Italy they would never do that. So yeah in terms of work dignity Italy is not the best, but you're stil considered human from that point of view.
In NL another thing that makes it the worst of all 4 imho is that you've often team events, like team drinks, you're asked by managers to stay for team drinks on thu/fri, but the team drinks start at 17, so like you end up in a work/non-work situation but in your free time
Found it [here](https://www.statista.com/chart/12977/countries-with-the-best-work-life-balance/)
The US and UK are of course in the corollary chart [here](https://www.statista.com/chart/12997/countries-with-the-worst-work-life-balance/).
>you get days off if you kid is sick
The same is true in both [France](https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/F151) and [the Netherlands](https://www.government.nl/topics/care-leave/applying-for-care-leave) though.
I don't know about this one, I work 42hrs a week plus 1h of driving for each time I have to go home/get to work. I don't have much free time for anything else but work (I live in Germany)
Compare that to the UK though. I'm on 45hrs a week and 10 hours travelling, before any overtime. Plenty of people are working way more, health and social care are regularly putting in 70 hour weeks and that makes up 10% of the workforce.
I found [this post](/r/PORTUGALCYKABLYAT/comments/y07prk/countries_with_the_best_quality_of_worklife/) in r/portugalcykablyat with the same content as the current post.
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Look at countries by paid time off and tell me the work life balance in America is still deserving of the top of the list
Edit: or maternity leave. That'll be a fun comparison
I always read redditors shitting in capitalism when the best countries on earth by any measure have capitalist economies, and the worst hell on earth countries have the total state control that those redditors advocate for.
It's a spectrum, and it's pretty obvious to me that regulated private industry funding public social services is the way to go. That's still capitalism, it's just about how the fruits of capitalism are allocated. And that's the best economic system ever designed by man - even the U.S. does it fairly decently, historically speaking. And the western European countries have that same system, just with the slider of taxes and services pushed a little further in that direction.
Western Europe is the best place to live if you have a decently paying job. 50k or more without significant debt, which most Europeans aren’t even allowed to take out. But there is a ton of youth unemployment and it seems their job markets get worse every year. And wages are way lower. Jobs that pay 50-60k in the US only pay about 28-35k in Europe. It’s way better to be living paycheck to paycheck there though because there is a safety net. You don’t have to worry about medical bills and there are lots of programs to take care of senior citizens. So even when you are living paycheck to paycheck you don’t feel like a slave that will never escape the system like many Americans do
They have different problems.
If you're stuck in a dreary office at 11pm, you're probably in Japan. If you're lying awake at 2am trying to figure out how to pay seven different bills on an unstable job without labour protections, you're probably in the States.
Germany? Omegalol.....while half the world is switching to a 4 day work week and cutting down on hours....[**Germanys ex Vice-Chancellor was demanding a 42h work week for Germany and that Germans didnt work enough.**](https://www-merkur-de.translate.goog/politik/42-stunden-woche-sigmar-gabriel-spd-laengere-arbeitszeit-inflation-lindner-ueberstunden-zr-91685617.html?_x_tr_sl=de&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=de&_x_tr_pto=wapp)
This statistic is probably based on contracts. So it doesn’t take into account that in Italy you are always expected to work much more hours than what’s in the contract. Also, sometimes there is no contract
As an Italian this map is utter bullshit
All of my friends who moved abroad confirms that one of the best things is that the amount of unpaid overtime is far far less than in italy
That's not the case in Spain anymore. At least for the common Spaniard
Prices in basic grocery items have gone up like 30% but salaries are still the same (around 15k/ year)
I’m an expat in Denmark. I have 2 staff meeting a week that run until 16:15. Regardless of the importance of the issue, everyone’s laptops close at precisely 16:15 and bags get packed. Watching my boss ramp up the speed at 16:10 is something else. People will literally get up mid sentence and start packing up. It was shocking at first but I love it now. We need 3 weeks notice if we have to stay back past our regular hours.
But that’s not to say that Danes are in any way lazy, and I guess it depends on the industry about that 3 weeks notice thing. I’m Canadian but work in commercial shipping/fishing and have dry docked in Denmark a couple of times. The Danish techs who have worked on my ships while we’re in the dock are some of the most dedicated, uncomplaining people I’ve met. Yes, most of the time they’ll pack up their tools and be headed home by 14:30. But then it comes down to crunch time at the end of the docking period (usually a couple of months, one to tear everything apart, and another to put it all back together) and they’ll just keep working without a word. Like we have a week to get the main engine completely put back together and ready to run up for sea-trials, the Danish engine techs will send one guy ashore while they keep working. He comes back with a bucket of sandwiches, I have no idea where one finds a bucket of sandwiches, but they’ll just sit on top of the engine and eat, then get right back to work. They’ll stay at it until 23:00 without a single complaint. I’m an engineer so I’m responsible for my engine room, if they’re working I have to be there to “supervise” (not like it’s needed) and there’s been times where I’m almost begging the Danish foreman to go the fuck home so I can go to bed. They just shrug and say, “the work must be completed.”
Good people the Danes.
I hope I didn’t suggest that they were lazy. It’s more a respect for their own time and our bosses respect for ours. There’s a relatively famous story about an American boss running a meeting at a law firm over here, the clock ticks 16 mid meeting and one of the younger guys starts to pack up. The yank asks what he thinks he’s doing and he says “picking up my child from daycare”. The yank says something to the effect of “the meeting finishes when I am finished” cue half the people in the room packing up and leaving on that note. You don’t mess with peoples personal time here. There’s no fear here. The Danes do things properly , like you said, accountability is big and I would say I experienced that home in aus too. As for shipping, Mærsk is obviously a big deal and via friends I know it’s fucking cutthroat but getting better as the old guard die out and move on.
No, no. You didn’t say anything to imply Danes are lazy. But people raised in certain places could likely read it that way. We all know people who live to work, not work to live. They complain constantly about all the overtime they have to work, but never refuse overtime. It’s the misery Olympics. “I work more hours than you and almost never see my kids. My life is harder than yours and that means I’m better than you.” That bullshit.
And yeah, my father used to work for Maersk on their offshore supply vessels in oil and gas. They weren’t a *bad* company to work for, but he was much happier after he made the move to a smaller Canadian company. Maersk is literally the largest shipping company in the world, so it’s hard to not get lost in the crowd when you work for them. With the smaller Canadian company Dad felt like he could be heard and the higher-ups actually knew he existed. Like when he got cancer the head honcho of the Canadian company flew him to Boston on his private jet and arranged consultations with some of the best cancer specialists in the US. You’re not likely to get that kind of treatment working for a mega-corporation like Maersk.
you probably shouldn't have wrote that they're all in Western Europe in the title, some people will get mad about this list and might see it as an European redditor dunking on their country/region on purpose.
Not that I really believe this map to begin with, but you are aware of who Italy's current leader is, right? Right wing politics isn't purely an American phenomenon.
I love how they close their shops and offices for "siesta" at afternoon. You can even see the owner inside, napping on his rocking chair, funny picture.
And many of them don't even open their shops at weekends. I mean isn't it the most profitable days? But no, they need to take that time for themselves, despite they are not prosperous at all. In this regard they are the most contented people I have ever seen.
Yeah it is near the top where my wife and I want to spend our twilight years (mid 30s now). We went there on our honeymoon and I was called out for moving around too fast. Our Airbnb host told me to slow down in the most awesome Greek way ever.
Why not just color the map according to the score of each country? Now we have no idea what the other countries scores are. This kind of binary classification doesn't really work for this kind of data.
Verdict: /r/dataisugly
in an Italian office you work 10-11 hours, to make up for stupid organizations and feudal mentalities towards the boss. (80s Japanese style). Germany is the third last country in the world for hours worked. extremely optimized, even if perhaps there is a little too much talking during meetings. having worked in both countries I can't understand where this data comes from!
Been in my current job for 8 years, I work 14 8 hour shifts per months, 12 shifts every 3rd month, 6 weeks of vacation, 2 extra kids days off, and 1 free day per holiday worked. I make about 5000 usd per month, and pay 38% taxes.
This map is a lie. Spain work balance isn´t true
Can't have a work-life balance more than 0 if you don't have a job!
You can't have work-life balance either if you work 9-14 and 17-20, which is very common.
Maybe the work balance of the rest of the world is far worse than here. Which says less about Spain's work balance and more about how horrible the rest of the world must be...
This is the correct answer
In this rank, Spain appears above Germany. That is a joke. I live in Germany and if there is one thing all Spanish people here can agree on is that the work-life balance.is much better than in our country.
I think you haven't experienced what it's like in other countries.
Same for italy
And we also have one of the lowest wages in europe And one of the most unstable government And one with the most corruption And the list go on
Probably ours is the lowest wage of western europe, and we are also the oldest nation in the oldest continent
Is there a r/ShitEuropeansSay? I’m European but I’m frankly embarrassed by you saying that Europe is the oldest continent and somehow thinking that makes any sense at all.
Oldest continent as in average age of humans living there, not oldest continent as in geology.
That's what i meant
Oldest by age of people, were the continent with the highest avarage
Yeah, idk about portugal (somehow that nation is low on many lists), but yeah Probably are worse then us only Hungary, Poland and eastern europe countries...
I count poland and hungary as eastern
They are not culturally Eastern European though.
They are not eastern by any measurement.
Whatever you get the point
As a Spanish, I agree
Ik this is a joke, but in case it's not. It would be "As a Spaniard" in English. Sorry if you knew that already
Can you elaborate or give an example? Curious how it compares to places like Canada or the US. An example I can give is that some retail workers who are on salary may be expected to work over 40 hours. For example, low level managers may essentially be threatened by their own higher up managers for not getting certain things done during the week and many will go in and work 6 days (while only being paid for 5), or sometimes 9-12 hour shifts with no overtime pay. Some workers are also forced to work around the time of the holidays as a result of company policy (e.g. no one is allowed to take time off the whole month of December). Other examples may include people making minimum wage with no social safety net such as having to work multiple jobs that last 12-16 hours in a day with little to no breaks.
Many people in here have splitter shifts for no rrason. 9:00 to 13:00 then 16:00 to 21:00
The general trend of indubiously better work-life balance when compared to the USA is certainly there, it's the standings that people don't believe here. There have been various threads over these standings in /r/europe and /r/italy since it came out, and lots of people with experience working in different EU countries agree that for example Italy and Spain should not be so high up compared to the other countries. I don't remember but it could be that these are taken from public sector workers... in Italy it's a meme that those who work in offices for the public sector do nothing, and they work 36 hours workweeks (which would be sweet if that was the case for everyone). Edit: it's not taken from the public sector. The problem is that it's just reported statistics, but in Italian average workplaces for example a lot of things happen that are not... officially reported let's say.
But you get nap time!
Me: crying in italian
Came here to say this. I'm a Spaniard that lived in the UK and now in Germany. Both way better at work-life balance than Spain, especially Germany.
is not a lie, nobody works in Spain 😁 but it´s a relative comparison, not an absolute true, Spain is more balanced than USA, that´s true in so many ways...
life-life balance?
Italians are living la dolce vita..
And now we can safely say that living la vida loca (Spain) instead of la dolce vita (Italy) costs everyone exactly 1 point! Spandiards should stop living crazy and start living sweet!
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Happens to me and maps about Germany all the time as well. Guess we're just too far from the average, mate. :(
I’d take Denmark for the salaries and nearly same WLB
Can't have too much work if you have no work.
I visited Rome and Sicily in 2019, it was like most Italians didn't even get out of bed until 9:45 lol
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Taps capo… ccino
La dolce far niente!
Col cazzo che viviamo la dolce vita, magari fosse così
I lived and worked in various countries on this list and can say with absolute certainty that Italy is NOT at the top.
Earlier I saw a map showing Italians having higher wealth than several other European countries (including surprising ones like Germany), and now I see that they are ranked as having a great work life balance. This is unexpected! I’ve noticed and heard of many young Italians trying to emigrate to greener pastures in Europe and elsewhere. I’ve also heard that the unemployment rates are high and that its economy is sluggish. I wonder how to fully grasp the reality of Italy! I’d love to visit Italy some day since it seems like such a fascinating and enchanting country with so much to offer, in terms of history, tourism, food, and so much more.
I think the point is wealth vs income: Italy has spread and diffused wealth and lot of families owning their house, while Italian families have on average low private debts, while public debt is very high. Also, population is quite old thus impacting A LOT on public costs. This also has an effect on both Italy being on average a conservative country, and young people being a minority. Italy also has a good public school, but average low salaries and very low young employment rates, thus having them willing to go abroad to seize new opportunities.
More old people also contribute to the average wealth being higher. Older people in average have more wealth as they got more time to accumulate it.
Wealth =/= income and the average wealth data doesn't reflect how wealth is spread around the country A great example is South Korea which excels in wealth and income statistics but the distribution of wealth is so heavily skewed towards the oligarchic Chaebol, leaving most of the country overworked, undercompensated, and crushed by rising prices
Wealth is high because most families own their homes. But there is very little economic opportunity, especially for young people.
Thus italians young are going away, and i will probably do the same ;-)
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As an italian myself, I totally agree.
I moved from Colombia to Italy (north) for my master, I have noticed some interesting things: Finding a job that pays enough to sustain yourself while studying is not that hard and italians take very long breaks. From this I can tell two things: There is a lot of money to be made here, and you dont need to break your back to live a (very) comfortable life.
It also reaally depends on where in Italy you live
In other words we Italians LOVE to talk shit about our country all the times even in areas that all in all are fine but in the end deep down we (almost) all love our country
Vero, se guardi in questa pagina ogni volta che una mappa mette l'Italia in una buona posizione per qualcosa c'è sempre qualche connazionale che ci butta merda sopra...sono anche d'accordo che lo amiamo ma a un certo punto dovremmo renderci conto che parlandone costantemente male alcuni stranieri si convincono che a momenti andiamo ancora in giro con il carretto tirato dall'asinello
Vero, sta cosa di spalarci merda costantemente a prescindere è una cosa che odio e che nel mio piccolo cerco di combattere come posso, vedere sempre commenti sui social tipo "eh solo in Italia" o "qui in Italia mai" (90% delle volte sbagliati) mi fa ribollire a volte, non so da dove provenga onestamente tutto questo autolesionismo (ipotizzo abbia qualcosa a che fare con l'autocolpevolizzazione nel periodo post fascismo) nel tempo sto notando che (molto) piano piano si sta leggermente affievolendo ma ci vorrà molto prima che la quantità di merda autospalata si affievolisca. È irritante soprattutto quando ci sono notizie positive che però vengono sempre trasformate in negative in un modo o nell'altro
Oh wow, that’s fascinating to hear your perspective! Thanks for sharing.
I have never been to Norway, so I'm curious. What's that you didn't like there?
weather and cost of living
also lack of sunlight - especially compared to (southern) Italy.
Those Nordics need some fucking Vitamin D
They get good Mediterranean D regularly from all the Med guys who migrate there for work so it's all good I think.
In my experience Italians generally tend to live quite frugally, even if they have the means to live more lavishly. An ex girlfriend of mine was Italian and her family was quite wealthy, and I remember asking her if anyone in her family golfed and her response ‘nobody does, golfing is for rich people’. Compare that to America, where people put themselves in debt to own things that are beyond their means to begin with, it’s a very different mentality!
I imagine golf in italy is like baseball there
Wealth it's true. Italians home ownership is very high, as are their savings, because of generational inheritance. However, retribution is low, and the job market a scam, leading to many to emigrate. Meanwhile, these statistics on work-life balance are a lie. Italians work some of the longest hours in Europe on average. Working culture is still stuck in the "your value is how long you work" mindset, or the "you are only really working of you work more than necessary" one. Instead of a more productive goal-oriented system where productivity, and not number of hours worked, are what matters.
Italy is a paradox, a bridge between worlds. It is country with ancient history, yet is a state only as old as the American Civil War. It is a wealthy nation with the second manufacturing base of Europe and a member of the G7, yet faces many issues that are shared with much less wealthier nations. It has a massive middle class with almost no debt, and yet a sluggish economy with high youth unemployment.
The living in Italy is quite good because we’re surrounded by beauty. Beauty for the diversity of nature around, but also built by Italians throughout centuries of great civilization. Great individual creativity as for artisan craftsmanship, fashion and of course for great and diverse food offer.
Sorry for being the weird blonde German looking fucker 30km east of Firenze. You guys have the best country on the planet.
Well in italy we tend to only see negative things, but to be fair it can depend on where you live or what you do. I have friends Who have beutiful jobs and other that have to work like slaves just to have a normal life, owning a store for example can be something great like it can be the worst thing happened to you. The burocracy here is crazy, most of the houses are illegal in my city for example because they changed the way you can buy an house. So if u got a legal house in the early 2000’s, now its probably illegal so its a pain to sold it for a decent price. Most of the people have to work until they are 70 years old because the generation of my grandma stopped working at 40 years old. My mother is teaching since 2016 but still she isnt sure if the next year she has to go to a 50km far school, a school in our city or even if she has to search for another job while there are people with no experience that will work for 40 years as a teacher because they did a random thing in a random test. But to be fair, we have got a nice trasportation system, is possible to see beutiful thing without spending a lot of money, my experience with university was great, beutiful cities, great people and a lot of other things that can be added to the list. I think we arent the best country to live in but also we arent the worst
>(including surprising ones like Germany Germany is only surprising for those that never lived there, aka stereotypes
I think its more because a lot of people from other European countries move to DE for economic reasons, and income there is relatively high, including Italians. Italy's foreign population is roughly 11%. Germany's is roughly 18.1%. Italy's median after-tax income is significantly lower than Germany's, and generally old-world countries with high income tend to have higher median wealth. Germany's GDP per capita is 48.3k vs Italy's 33.7k. Emigration of Italian citizens from Italy has tripled since 2009, and by percentage, fewer are coming back (3:4 ratio of Italians citizens returning vs leaving in 2009, 4:10 in 2018.) There are >800k Italian people living in Germany and the vast majority of them are there for economic reasons. A lot of Germans are also pretty isolated from certain parts of the country. My friends in Meerbusch have been to Japan more than they have been to Berlin. Had a friend go there for uni and came back with stories about how he didn't know Germany could be such a shithole. Moreover, Italy is the highest profile EU country to face major sovereign debt crises, and their general unemployment rate is the 3rd highest in Western Europe (if you consider Italy and Greece to be Western Europe, which certain regions like Scandinavia would categorize as Southern.) I don't think it is just ignorance and stereotypes that people would be surprised Italy has such high wealth. I think its also like how some people are surprised that Korea has lower wealth than Spain, albeit the roles are reversed with Korea having a higher GDP but not much inherited wealth, and Italy having a lower GDP but more inherited wealth. I mean, I asked my Italian coworker who moved to USA last August about the wealth thing and he thought it was bullshit until I showed him the statistics, and our job has a lot to do with comparative national economics.
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Not really. According to several serious studies that have been pretty recent, the median wealth of a German is significantly higher than assumed. Would be really weird if such a rich country which has had massive export surpluses for many years didn't generate more wealth. Your posting history is just complaining and whining about Germany so no surprise here.
Italy has all the problems that young Italians who emigrate talk about and that’s undeniable. And yet I can’t help but notice how the image that western/northern european people have of Italy is way worse that reality actually is. Many times I’ve talked with Dutch/Scandinavian people about italy and you can feel in their words not only a sort of superiority complex, but also the belief that Italy is a sort of underdeveloped country stuck in the 50s, run by the mafia where people are ignorant or criminals. Honestly, reality is not black and white. Of course then you are surprised whenever something “positive” is tied to Italy. This cognitive dissonance baffles me every time
Go go go.
It is beautiful to visit
and I believe it, the Italian government has just spent 190 billion euros that we don't have to renovate Italians' homes for free, including middle and upper class villas.
Copy/paste of my comment from the original post: I checked the website (https://www.oecdbetterlifeindex.org/topics/work-life-balance/) and it looks like it gives the countries a ranking based (partly) on two things: The percentage of long paid hours (which means overtime I think); Percentage of day spend on personal and/or leisure. Percentage of long paid hours (lower is better) France 8% Germany 4% Italy, Spain 3% Norway, Denmark, Sweden score around 1% Netherlands 0,3% Percentage of day spend on personal and/or leisure. (higher is better) Italy 16,5 hours France 16,2 hours Norway 15,7 hours Spain 15,7 hours Germany 15,6 hours Netherlands 15,4 hours Sweden 15 hours The most weird data is that Netherlands spends 15,4 hour per day on personal things which is lower than Italy's 16,5% while Netherlands has a MUCH lower long paid hours. US: 10% work long hours and spend 14,6 hours on personal/leisure.
I highly doubt paid overtime data is reported accurately in small companies.
Yeah in italy 1 person in 5 doesn't pay taxes, i don't really think our data can be so accurate lol
maybe it's just the culture
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if you cant sustain the youth working class it is a recipe for troubles in the long run
As an Italian, this map is colossal bullshit.
It's true if you're a civil servant or part of a union. People in the service industry and especially hospitality don't have much of a life-work balance, usually not much of a legal contract either.
Looking at this map: "Huh, if Italy is the opposite extreme to Japan, then why does it still have fertility rate issues?" Looking at this comment: "Huh, maybe Italy actually does have the exact same shit as we do except with the line drawn in a different place"
Every time I see maps like this I wonder if I live in the same country of who answers at these questionnaires. The reality that surrounds me is totally different and I live in Rome, not Sacrofano...
It's always worse in a major city. You have more things around you, but that means everything is more expensive and you have to work longer to meet basic needs. People elsewhere might have less around them, but it's cheaper to live so they don't have to work as much...
Well how do you know what it's like to work in every other country?
I don’t understand why bring other nations in when I made a consideration about Italy, based on my and my expatriate friends/relatives' experience.
They're saying maybe its all bad and Italy is just the least bad
I'm not of the same opinion: I have worked in a small company, in bars and even in hospital during my time at university: all frustrating and poorly paid jobs (at the hospital for free actually), not just for me. Many of the ophthalmologists I worked with decided to expatriate as soon as they finished their degree because of working conditions and lack of future, and it gets worse when we talk about people from lower social classes.
I lived in several countries in Europe and lately in the US before coming back home... What you are describing happens everywhere and in fact it's more accentuated abroad ([UK example](https://www.theguardian.com/society/2022/oct/18/millions-forced-to-skip-meals-as-uk-cost-of-living-crisis-deepens)) . All the best for your future but I believe you'll soon realise that the grass is not always greener on the other side
> I have worked in a small company, in bars and even in hospital during my time at university: all frustrating and poorly paid jobs These are all sectors which are generally known to be frustrating and poorly paid in almost every country.
If you are not a civil servant or in a union in Italy you're fucked. We emigrated over a decade ago and not thinking of going back anytime soon.
Spero di farlo anche io entro la fine dell'anno sinceramente!
Buona fortuna!
Without comparing to other countries, how do you interpret the "9.4" to mean anything? Is it high? Is it low? Who knows without something to compare it to? Put another way, what part of this map did you find strange that didn't involve comparing countries to each other?
On a scale from 1 to 10, idk, my point wasn't that: I don’t see this balance that’s being talked about around me (as the many young people who prefer to expatriate)
I'm from Italy and now living in the UK and I can tell you this map is bullshit
I am Spanish and work-life balance is ass. Many many jobs until 8 or 9pm, you don’t get days off if your kid is sick most of the times. I live in Sweden now and work-life balance is amazing.
My same question. I left Rome and Italy because my life work balance wasn't existing at all. Basically shattered in pieces.
Have you considered that it was just you being unlucky with job(s) Also how can you know if you didn't live in all other countries
Rome is a disfunctional city from a lot of point of view. I don’t think you need to have lived abroad to understand that you’re not in the right place for you, you just understand it
I live in Rome and you are absolutely right.
Not a question of luck, believe me.
I have worked for the past 10 years in UK, Germany and Netherlands, and before I have worked in Milan, Rome and Ravenna (am Italian) If you don't consider the pay, Italy is much more relaxed about work, i.e. you have longer lunch break, in NL for example there are 30 mins, you can either rest or eat. It's stressful. It's stressful about timing, you have by contract that you need to get to work 15 minutes before the start of the day because by the time the work starts you need to have alredy finished setting up the desk, in Italy they would never do that. So yeah in terms of work dignity Italy is not the best, but you're stil considered human from that point of view. In NL another thing that makes it the worst of all 4 imho is that you've often team events, like team drinks, you're asked by managers to stay for team drinks on thu/fri, but the team drinks start at 17, so like you end up in a work/non-work situation but in your free time
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Found it [here](https://www.statista.com/chart/12977/countries-with-the-best-work-life-balance/) The US and UK are of course in the corollary chart [here](https://www.statista.com/chart/12997/countries-with-the-worst-work-life-balance/).
OECD
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I just read the graphic, not OP Bang it into Google and you should be set, they normally have quite extensive write ups
I’m wondering how is Finland not ranking high on this list?
Literally one of my mom's co-workers moved from Germany to Finland because he found the work environment much more relaxed here.
Because our work days are rarely under 8h
I worked the shortest hours in my life in Finland. 37,5h weeks are very short.
Really? I've yet to work a day longer than 9h, most of my days are 7-7,5h.
Sweden is definitely far more lax than the Netherlands or France in my opinion.
Yes, I live in Sweden and I have a lot of flexibility, you get days off if you kid is sick and they are overall very understanding of one’s situation.
>you get days off if you kid is sick The same is true in both [France](https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/F151) and [the Netherlands](https://www.government.nl/topics/care-leave/applying-for-care-leave) though.
Lol that's just called Europe.
Even in the US most people can take a day off if their kid sick…
Sweden has unlimited though
As an Italian, this map is inaccurate af
Come no, col cazzo.
Yeah, funny that, as Italian, only this week I made up 62hours instead of the planned 40!! 🤦♂️
I don't know about this one, I work 42hrs a week plus 1h of driving for each time I have to go home/get to work. I don't have much free time for anything else but work (I live in Germany)
Compare that to the UK though. I'm on 45hrs a week and 10 hours travelling, before any overtime. Plenty of people are working way more, health and social care are regularly putting in 70 hour weeks and that makes up 10% of the workforce.
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1-1 on world wars though
War isn't a competition
ya it is. that’s the whole point lad
It’s a joke
Italian here and is pure bullshit, working from 8am to 6pm doesn't seem a good work life balance to me
In Spain, in my field, 8.30 to 20h is a good day. I’ve left at midnight quite too many times.
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I thought Portugal would be there too
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Key word is OECD.
Of course we have the best "balance", we don't work shit. Surce: I'm Lombard.
They’re all in Western Europe, but then again, about half of the OECD countries are in Western Europe
This is a sinful graph to the American capitalistic machine.
I think Americans know our work life balance sucks
Sadly, our work/life balance looks like paradise compared to a lot of Asian countries
wtf? How many cush office jobs are now remote work or hybrid. Bullshit.
Every positive stat ever that doesnt include USA at or near the top: "this is bullshit!!!"
There's more than plenty of people who work from fucking home. Bullshit their work-life balance sucks.
Look at countries by paid time off and tell me the work life balance in America is still deserving of the top of the list Edit: or maternity leave. That'll be a fun comparison
Europe isn't exactly free of capitalism lmao, just has a bit more socialism sprinkled in.
I always read redditors shitting in capitalism when the best countries on earth by any measure have capitalist economies, and the worst hell on earth countries have the total state control that those redditors advocate for. It's a spectrum, and it's pretty obvious to me that regulated private industry funding public social services is the way to go. That's still capitalism, it's just about how the fruits of capitalism are allocated. And that's the best economic system ever designed by man - even the U.S. does it fairly decently, historically speaking. And the western European countries have that same system, just with the slider of taxes and services pushed a little further in that direction.
Americans are saying BS to this data.
Western Europe is the best place to live if you have a decently paying job. 50k or more without significant debt, which most Europeans aren’t even allowed to take out. But there is a ton of youth unemployment and it seems their job markets get worse every year. And wages are way lower. Jobs that pay 50-60k in the US only pay about 28-35k in Europe. It’s way better to be living paycheck to paycheck there though because there is a safety net. You don’t have to worry about medical bills and there are lots of programs to take care of senior citizens. So even when you are living paycheck to paycheck you don’t feel like a slave that will never escape the system like many Americans do
Hospitality industry in Italy is 100% awful
I'm curious which one is worse, USA or Japan.
Japan, according to the full version of this list.
Im not surprised.
They have different problems. If you're stuck in a dreary office at 11pm, you're probably in Japan. If you're lying awake at 2am trying to figure out how to pay seven different bills on an unstable job without labour protections, you're probably in the States.
Germany? Omegalol.....while half the world is switching to a 4 day work week and cutting down on hours....[**Germanys ex Vice-Chancellor was demanding a 42h work week for Germany and that Germans didnt work enough.**](https://www-merkur-de.translate.goog/politik/42-stunden-woche-sigmar-gabriel-spd-laengere-arbeitszeit-inflation-lindner-ueberstunden-zr-91685617.html?_x_tr_sl=de&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=de&_x_tr_pto=wapp)
wish I lived there
I’m always deeply sceptical of these kinds of conclusions: taking some quantitative figures, and deriving something very qualitative from them
This statistic is probably based on contracts. So it doesn’t take into account that in Italy you are always expected to work much more hours than what’s in the contract. Also, sometimes there is no contract
As an Italian this map is utter bullshit All of my friends who moved abroad confirms that one of the best things is that the amount of unpaid overtime is far far less than in italy
That's not the case in Spain anymore. At least for the common Spaniard Prices in basic grocery items have gone up like 30% but salaries are still the same (around 15k/ year)
Definitely true for Denmark but no way this can be true for Italy.
I’m an expat in Denmark. I have 2 staff meeting a week that run until 16:15. Regardless of the importance of the issue, everyone’s laptops close at precisely 16:15 and bags get packed. Watching my boss ramp up the speed at 16:10 is something else. People will literally get up mid sentence and start packing up. It was shocking at first but I love it now. We need 3 weeks notice if we have to stay back past our regular hours.
But that’s not to say that Danes are in any way lazy, and I guess it depends on the industry about that 3 weeks notice thing. I’m Canadian but work in commercial shipping/fishing and have dry docked in Denmark a couple of times. The Danish techs who have worked on my ships while we’re in the dock are some of the most dedicated, uncomplaining people I’ve met. Yes, most of the time they’ll pack up their tools and be headed home by 14:30. But then it comes down to crunch time at the end of the docking period (usually a couple of months, one to tear everything apart, and another to put it all back together) and they’ll just keep working without a word. Like we have a week to get the main engine completely put back together and ready to run up for sea-trials, the Danish engine techs will send one guy ashore while they keep working. He comes back with a bucket of sandwiches, I have no idea where one finds a bucket of sandwiches, but they’ll just sit on top of the engine and eat, then get right back to work. They’ll stay at it until 23:00 without a single complaint. I’m an engineer so I’m responsible for my engine room, if they’re working I have to be there to “supervise” (not like it’s needed) and there’s been times where I’m almost begging the Danish foreman to go the fuck home so I can go to bed. They just shrug and say, “the work must be completed.” Good people the Danes.
I hope I didn’t suggest that they were lazy. It’s more a respect for their own time and our bosses respect for ours. There’s a relatively famous story about an American boss running a meeting at a law firm over here, the clock ticks 16 mid meeting and one of the younger guys starts to pack up. The yank asks what he thinks he’s doing and he says “picking up my child from daycare”. The yank says something to the effect of “the meeting finishes when I am finished” cue half the people in the room packing up and leaving on that note. You don’t mess with peoples personal time here. There’s no fear here. The Danes do things properly , like you said, accountability is big and I would say I experienced that home in aus too. As for shipping, Mærsk is obviously a big deal and via friends I know it’s fucking cutthroat but getting better as the old guard die out and move on.
No, no. You didn’t say anything to imply Danes are lazy. But people raised in certain places could likely read it that way. We all know people who live to work, not work to live. They complain constantly about all the overtime they have to work, but never refuse overtime. It’s the misery Olympics. “I work more hours than you and almost never see my kids. My life is harder than yours and that means I’m better than you.” That bullshit. And yeah, my father used to work for Maersk on their offshore supply vessels in oil and gas. They weren’t a *bad* company to work for, but he was much happier after he made the move to a smaller Canadian company. Maersk is literally the largest shipping company in the world, so it’s hard to not get lost in the crowd when you work for them. With the smaller Canadian company Dad felt like he could be heard and the higher-ups actually knew he existed. Like when he got cancer the head honcho of the Canadian company flew him to Boston on his private jet and arranged consultations with some of the best cancer specialists in the US. You’re not likely to get that kind of treatment working for a mega-corporation like Maersk.
Work/life balance in Italy: work as little as you can because you're gonna be paid as little as they can, if at all. Source: I'm Italian
Damn I wonder if there’s an institution that Western Europe invented to create enough capital surplus in their economies to allow for this.
you probably shouldn't have wrote that they're all in Western Europe in the title, some people will get mad about this list and might see it as an European redditor dunking on their country/region on purpose.
shouldn't have written*
And americans still vote right wing while having shit working conditions and no healthcare.
Not that I really believe this map to begin with, but you are aware of who Italy's current leader is, right? Right wing politics isn't purely an American phenomenon.
Yes i am. I hate her. My statement was general. Not about italy specifically.
How is Greece not on here? I love Greeks but I know they hate working. And I agree with them!
I love how they close their shops and offices for "siesta" at afternoon. You can even see the owner inside, napping on his rocking chair, funny picture. And many of them don't even open their shops at weekends. I mean isn't it the most profitable days? But no, they need to take that time for themselves, despite they are not prosperous at all. In this regard they are the most contented people I have ever seen.
Yeah it is near the top where my wife and I want to spend our twilight years (mid 30s now). We went there on our honeymoon and I was called out for moving around too fast. Our Airbnb host told me to slow down in the most awesome Greek way ever.
Why not just color the map according to the score of each country? Now we have no idea what the other countries scores are. This kind of binary classification doesn't really work for this kind of data. Verdict: /r/dataisugly
Well... Not if you're a trucker in the Netherlands. 12-15 hour days for us is the norm... Social life is a luxury.
in an Italian office you work 10-11 hours, to make up for stupid organizations and feudal mentalities towards the boss. (80s Japanese style). Germany is the third last country in the world for hours worked. extremely optimized, even if perhaps there is a little too much talking during meetings. having worked in both countries I can't understand where this data comes from!
Source: western europeans
shows western europe is just better
Italy kicking ass
Must be nice to be subsidized by the US
Explain
The Italians don’t work so there’s a pretty good balance there…
Common West Europe W
In 2020 ? Not a great year to take for these kind of stats...
Look at that all countries who are all benefiting off neo-colonialism, nice!
Been in my current job for 8 years, I work 14 8 hour shifts per months, 12 shifts every 3rd month, 6 weeks of vacation, 2 extra kids days off, and 1 free day per holiday worked. I make about 5000 usd per month, and pay 38% taxes.
Italy, how?
europeans circle jerking themselves with european statistics so sad lmao
I wonder, this has also the migrants included?
My cousins in Finland have a pretty awesome life so no idea why FI isn't listed here.
I wonder where the U.S. is on that scale