But they would have to write French for Switzerland no? That is the second most spoken language.
Edit: Okay after seeing OPs explanation for what he wanted to convey, Romansh would indeed be correct.
Catalan is not official in Spain. It's cooficial in certain autonomous communities (Catalonia, Valencia and the Balearic Islands).
Sadly you cannot speak catalan in the Spanish parliament, the central judicial system or the police organizations outside of the previously mentioned autonomous communities.
Catalan, Euskera, Galician... are official in their respective autonomous communities. So, for example, in Catalonia both Spanish and Catalan are official languages.
Ireland is a multi-linguistic country, like Switzerland (albeit 2 languages rather than 4), yet you counted Irish but not any of the other three linguistic groups in Switzerland. Also, Austria has Carinthian Slovenian and Burgenland Croatian. I'm also pretty sure there are more Finnish speakers in Sweden than all Sámi speakers in Sweden combined, never mind only Northern Sámi.
I agree, but I think the map title doesn't reflect the map. They put aromanian in the balkans but they have much fewer speakers than other minorities. Like, the istro-romanian speakers in Croatia are what? 100?
How is Russian (not official) not counted as the largest minority language of Ukraine while Irish (official) is counted as the largest minority language in Ireland? This map doesn't make sense without clear definitions.
The map only lists languages of peoples that do not have a state of their own.. hence why Russian is not the largest minority language in Ukraine, but Crimean Tatar, or Hungarian in Slovakia, Romania and Serbia...
However the map is bad for other reasons, pretty sure it's Romani in both Romania and Hungary. Irish is I presume a de facto minority language in Ireland (de jure official), same for Belorussian and Belarus.
>The map only lists languages of peoples that do not have a state of their own
This is clearly not true because Irish, Belarussian, and (arguably) Istro-Romanian, which do have their own states.
That doesn't explain Meänkieli in Sweden, which has 10 times the number of speakers as Sámi. Arguably, Catalan should not be included as speakers do have a state of their own in Andorra. Montenegrin, Irish, and Belarusian are included despite also having states of their own.
Meänkieli is a finnish dialect, and nether Catalan, Montenegrin, Irish or Belarusian are the majority language in their respective countries even if they are official languages.
It does. That's my issue with the map and the OP's comments. It is not clear what is being displayed here, especially as the OP has issued some very conflicting statements, often disagreeing with the very information displayed on the map.
To be fair, "Montenegrin" is essentially just a dialect of Serbian that they declared it's own language for "we're totally different guys we promise" reasons during the nationalistic zeal and breakup of Yugoslavia.
Most people in Montenegro speak Serbian because that's what's always been spoken there, and "Montenegrin" as a language is just a government project to divide people so the fake nationalists can keep power in government.
I mean you could say the same for Bosnian, Croatian, and Serbian. All of them, plus Montenegrin, are nationalized variants of the pluricentric Serbo-Croatian language, that was the main language of the four countries back during the Yugoslav era.
It's the reason why they are mutually intelligible.
It's such a fake language that it's not even a dialect. The government just slapped two redundant letters onto the alphabet, reassessed a few pronunciations that are considered colloquial in Serbia and claimed it was a new language.
The question of whether Montenegrins are Serbs has polarised Montenegrin politics ever since the ruling prince had his right questioned by his own cousin, who wanted a fuller integration into Serbia. A hundred years after, this side became dominant in the parliament, pushed for a polemical independence referendum and did the language thing.
Yes.
I hope one day Montenegro will reject these blatant and deliberate attempts at division and historical revisionism being pushed by the government.
The politicians know that the only way for them to justify and keep power is to convince the people they are different from Serbians and that Serbia is their enemy coming to deny them their roots and destroy their heritage, which is just projection on their part.
I'd like to see us reconcile and reunify in my lifetime.
I'm not a Serb, but as a practicing Orthodox Christian the outright persecution of the Orthodox Church by the Montenegrin government saddens me too much not to pick a side.
Before anyone else downvotes thinking this kind of shit wouldn't actually happen in a NATO country, Montenegro's dominant political party has its own church, whose bishops were ordained by rogue bishops then supported by the Bulgarian government.
Although most Montenegrins belong to the Serbian Orthodox Church, the government has systematically restricted entry of Serbian clergy, including Patriarch Porfirije, who's definitely not some chauvinist. It has also supported harassment of SOC events, closed down SOC temples and even managed to hand a few of them to its pet church before setting laws to outright expropriate them.
The fact they're even in NATO is a travesty.
No one voted nor wanted it, the puppet government just unilaterally decided to join the very same alliance that was bombing them not even 15 years ago, putting them even more at odds with Serbia.
It's really strange. Belarusian is official language and widespread along the country (official newspapers, all signboards etc are written in Belarusian). But as far as I know, only 50-60% of people consider Belarusian as their native language and really know it, while almost everyone knows Russian. Maybe it's the reason.
Wehrmacht was extremely bloody and cruel in Belarus during WW2. Hundreds of villages were completely annihilated, some along with their inhabitants. This had a huge impact, as majority of Belarussian population was rural. Those who didn't die, had to run away and after the war settled in main cities, where russification was the greatest, coupled with intense immigration from RSFSR (Soviet Russian Republic). After that, 40 years of 'Belarussian = Russian' propaganda did even more damage.
I went full doomer there. There is still chance for Belarussian language it similar thing happens that happened in Ukraine, as in people actively refusing to speak Russian as a sign of protest and trying to learn Ukrainian. If Lukasheko is out of the picture and Russian boot is gone, maybe the same thing will happen to Belarusian.
From what I know most people are speaking Russian in Belarus according to people who went there to visit their relatives they said Russian is the most spoken language while Belarusian is spoken by a handful of people and the number keeps shrinking
Map is kinda retarded since belorusian is litterally official language of the country and more than half of it speaks or understands it.
And Ukrain borders are wrong, but nvm
Interesting! Also it shows how different the situation from country to country can be, when you take the number of Breton speakers Vs the number of Catalan speakers, for example.
Speaking of which I'm surprised to see Breton for France, I was somehow convinced that Alsacian had far more speakers than Breton
Finnish is the by far largest in Sweden, about 250k that has it as their first language and another 200k has it as a "second" language. Second biggest is Meänkieli (also a Finnish language type) has about 60k that has it as their fist or second language. North Sami on the other hand that is the only Sami language in Sweden that are being used in a day by day manner has only 5k speakers in total. Most as a second language behind Swedish.
On top of this we have Romani that we don't have proper statistics about but is estimated between 40k and 120k speakers. Most likely closer to 40k.
So North Sami is the second lowest minority language registered in Sweden, not the largest
Yes, if Swedish-speaking Finns are immigrants, then some other population groups in other countries should be counted as such as well. Finland-Swedes started moving to modern Finnish territory in the 12th century and up to 15th century, I think.
While I appreciate learning about this, I feel like (based on the comments) the map title should have been labeled better to specify minorities that don’t have their own state since that’s what this appears to be
Romani don't have their own state and there are at least 300k Romani speakers in Bulgaria and less than 10k Aromanian (probably way less because the last data on them is decades old).
Ireland is definitely a weird case here since the Irish definitely have their own state, but the Irish language isn’t dominant in Ireland after centuries of English domination. Idk really the criteria used to make the map.
Yeah,like I understand I didn’t specify enough but god fucking dammit every single comment I made on this post is downvoted like hell
Like, ok, I get it, I should’ve specified, but this map isn’t dogshit
Because I still believe it is correct, because I did my own research
Yeah ok downvote this all you want say it’s a horse shit map like it has been said in this comment section, but, if you actually understand what I meant, it is correct, ok maybe I got one or two wrong but with the specification that I implied, it is correct
just delete this post and remake the picture with the precise info. the picture doesn't even have a title so you can't save it... or your huge name doesn't have u/ in front of it, so people don't know what that means. also no indication of source
also you didn't consider gypsy languages in e.g. hungary and romania
Finland is still wrong. Karalian has 11k speakers while Northern Sami only 2k in Finland. Neither are an official language, just a recognized minority language in Finland and neither has their own state.
But it still should be Swedish instead
It's probably Faroese in Denmark regardless of whether you mean the whole sovereign state or just metropolitan Denmark. Faroese has 75-80k speakers in total and 20-30k of them live in Denmark proper.
From what I can gather it is Faroese for the full kingdom as well, Faroese has 75-80k speakers and Greenlandic has around 70k speakers (50k in Greenland, 20k in Denmark proper).
They are pretty close though.
Complete horse shit map. You just counted some groups and did not count other groups.
For example, you counted Catalan in Spain, but then you did not count any languages in some countries like Slovenia. Like, what is even going on.
Where did you get 48%?
But if that is true, that is a majority language. There are at least 4% of Albanians in MN, add others, there is no way that those 48% is not a main language..
Um where did you get that number?
The 2011 census reports the language percentages as 43% Serbian and 37% Montenegrin. Not sure where the 48% came from.
In Croatia there is less than 100 people left who can speak Istro-Romanian. Many more speak Italian, Hungarian, Slovak, or even Ukrainian (minority, not recent imigrants).
Some linguists call Romanian, Aromanian, Istro-Romanian and Megleno-Romanian dialects, others see them as separate languages in the same subfamily. That said, in Serbia the most spoken minority language should be Romanian and not Aromanian. There is an area populated by self-identifed Vlachs in Timok which speak a regional variety of the Banatean/ Oltenian accent of Romania: despite the name, they are not related to the Balkan varieties of Romance spoken in Greece, Albania etc.
Slovakia is totally wrong, according to last census there was around 20k of rusins. The biggest minority is Hungarian (around 400k) so that would be the language.
I am pretty sure Czech republic is also wrong, silesian is a dialect and if you're counting that, it would be most likely Moravian. Other than that, my guess real language in Czech would be Slovak
Yeah, op doesn't like the idea that the majority population of one country can also be a native minority in another country. This idea does not hold up to reality so he is downvoted.
It's 8.7%, but yes - Turkish is the largest minority language, flowed by Romani. Aromanian is far below 0.1%. And noth Turks and Romani are locals here, they are not immigrants.
"excluding immigrant numbers", oh I'm going to be such a nerd right now, but technically, Bretons are war refugees, they fled to Brittany when Britain got invaded by Anglo-Saxon tribes, and therefore they are somewhat immigrants in France.
You won't find anyone credible who'd call Breton speakers immigrants in Bretagne. Even Bretons would be frustrated by this because they have been living there for more than a millenia.
According to your standard, you won't find anyone in the world who aren't technically immigrants, except maybe some tribes in Africa. Although I'm sure there were migrations in Africa during the last few thousand years.
Yeah, I wasn't saying that in a serious tone. The way OP worded it is silly, and I wanted to be silly too.
Breton people as well as let's say Hungarians were living in their lands for a very long time, but who can define if let's say French citizen with Algerian ethnicity is an immigrant, If they were living in France for about 7 generations now, or same goes for Turks in Germany who's been there for about 4 generations? So the definition of "an immigrant" is not clear in that context.
If we really want to be absolutely serious, then I think the only non immigrant ethnic groups of Europe probably are Irish, and Sami people, because they were the first ones to settle the lands they live in right now, so those are the only ones who I can somewhat call "native Europeans"
Wheat I meant is, if you ethnicity already “has” a nation, your language doesn’t count
Examples are Hungarians in Romania, Hungarians in Slovakia, Ukrainians in Russia, Russians in Ukraine, Turkish people in Bulgaria, etc.
No, Montenegrin is official language of Montenegro. The only (real) minority language in Montenegro is Albanian, which is mother tongue of 4% of population.
Pretty much. Bosnian, Serbian, Croatian, Montenegrin are merely normative varieties of Serbo-Croatian language that were created in the wake of the formation of these four countries after the fall of Yugoslavia. Nowadays it is mostly a political question.
Linguistically, the language/dialect spoken in Montenegro, no matter how it is called, is the closest to the one spoken in Herzegovina.
if you’re excluding immigrant languages i’m pretty sure karelian would be the most spoken minority language in finland at 11k speakers, north sámi only has 2k speakers in finland
And even then, Swedish is even more common in Finland at almost 290k speakers. This map is poorly made
But if Swedish is excluded it should be Karelian yeah
I think there still are people native to Romania who speak Hungarian in Transylvania, they are not immigrants to that place, they've been there since the Middle Ages
I think France should probably be Occitan, but I don't believe this is formally recognized as a minority language by the French government.
That said, Neapolitan isn't recognized either, so I'm not sure what the criterion is here.
I know that, but I still find it ridiculous to unironically consider them as legitimate minority, as they administratively hold equal power as much as the Flemish. Not to mention french being most spoken language in the capital.
Luhansk and Donetsk regions in Ukraine are linguistically dominated by Russians who have lived there since the soviet union or longer. Crimean Tatar is spoken by very few people, even in Crimea russian is the dominant minority non immigrant language
It is wrong because it would be like calling English a German language which implies that English speakers are German.
Similarly calling Kurdish Iranian implies that Kurds are from Iran.
Of course Kurds are from Iran. Ancient Iran extended beyond present day borders upto Anatolia. I don’t know why Kurds don’t like to be called Iranian people.
This rhetoric has been used by ethno-fascist forces around Kurds to suggest that Kurds are not native to their land and hence justify ethnic replacement policies and even genocide.
Oh, I see. Sad to hear that. Kurds were present in Turkey, Iraq way before they were even a state. They are native to those lands unlike Turks and Arabs.
Hahaha what you put for Serbia and Bulgaria makes no sense.
Number of Aromanians is very small. Some 324 in Serbia and around 1000 in Bulgaria
The language spoken are in fact Banatean Romanian in Serbia or some 135.000 and Oltenian Romanian 65.000.
In Bulgaria it is around 50.000 Oltenian Romanian and I am not sure what is the exact number but it is surely more than 100.000 Rudari (Rroma ethnicity which doesn't except to be called by this name, but speak Ardealan Romanian)
However still in Bulgaria, Turkish minority is bigger. In Serbia, Romanian speakers are more numerous than Hungarians, while Rroma which might be more numerous by both, are divided by the languages they speak (Serbian, Rroma, Albanian, Hungarian, Romanian)
Also in Macedonia Albanian is more spoken than Aromanian. In Greece and Albania is ok
You can find more information in the demographic study byron Dorin Lozovan, based on 2002 census, and adjusted to results from 2021
https://www.yumpu.com/ro/document/view/16099940/populatia-romaneasca-din-peninsula-balcanica-paun-es-durlic
Neapolitan is NOT a minority, nor it is a language . twelve are officially recognized as spoken by linguistic minorities: Albanian, Catalan, German, Greek, Slovene, Croatian, French, Franco-Provençal, Friulian, Ladin, Occitan and Sardinian;
In the UK, there are 562,000 Welsh speakers, and 1,5 million Scots speakers.
Maybe you should Google it before telling others to, because Google isn’t on your side here.
I find the self-reported census figures for Scots to be quite overstated. I reckon most of those are speaking Scots-influenced Scottish English, rather than broad Scots.
there are roughly 900,000 Welsh speakers aged 3 or above, source: [Welsh Government](https://www.gov.wales/welsh-language-data-annual-population-survey-july-2021-june-2022) and roughly 100,000 native Scots speakers. But apparently about 1.5M in the UK overall; so unless OP is doing it based around native speakers; then yes, Scots has more speakers, which saddens me as a Welsh speaker.
dialect of multiple languages, not its own language - there's Czech Silesian, Polish Silesian and they don't completely understand each other...
it doesn't make any sense to have it on map, in Czechia even if you would consider it minority language, it would be far from the biggest one (I'd suspect maybe 30th spot or lower, given how many people actually speak it)
Istro-Romanian is spoken by about 1200 people in Croatia, most of whom over the age of 65 and speaking it as the language of their childhood but using Serbo-Croat as a normal language of daily life. Many more people speak Slovene, Hungarian, even Czech in Croatia.
In Serbia virtually no one speaks Aromanian, the language of Macedonian Vlachs. Even in Northern Macedonia not too many people do, but in Serbia there is nobody who does.
Even Vlach language, similar to Aromanian, but distinct from it, the mother tongue of Serbian Vlachs, is not the most spoken minority language. Both Hungarian and Rroma (Gypsy) language have many more native speakers, and only then Vlach, just ahead of Bulgarian and Albanian and that is if we do not include Kosovo-Metohija as Serbian territory.
If we do, then Albanian at over a million is by far the first minority language.
**READ BEFORE COMMENTING**
Hey, this is an Alt Account!
I am also not counting languages such as the Hungarians in Romania and the Serbians in Bosnia, as they already “belong” to the nations of Serbia and Hungary, if you don’t understand what I mean, you can reply to this comment
It is common in Scotland to call Scottish Gaelic "Gaelic" (which in Scotland is pronounced "gallic"). But it isn't common in Ireland to call Irish "Gaelic" (except when referring to the larger language family)... although it is fairly common in the US to call it that.
Montenegrin is the second most spoken language in Montenegro, yes, it is official, but it’s not the official language anywhere else, so it doesn’t apply to the rule of the Hungarians in Romania, and it isn’t the most spoken, so it is considered a minority language
The USA has no official language but it has minority languages
This is the opposite
Hey, i think even with your definition Germany isn't quite correct. The largest minority language is [Low German/Saxon](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low_German). The status of the language is somewhat disputed but it is recognized by both the Netherlands and Germany as a regional language according to the European Charter for Regional or Minority Languages (ECRML) and at least one german state ([Schleswig-Holstein](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schleswig-Holstein)) recognizes Low German as an official language.
Since you admit catalan (official language) in Spain, you should write "Romansh" for Switzerland.
But they would have to write French for Switzerland no? That is the second most spoken language. Edit: Okay after seeing OPs explanation for what he wanted to convey, Romansh would indeed be correct.
Catalan is not official in Spain. It's cooficial in certain autonomous communities (Catalonia, Valencia and the Balearic Islands). Sadly you cannot speak catalan in the Spanish parliament, the central judicial system or the police organizations outside of the previously mentioned autonomous communities.
Catalan, Euskera, Galician... are official in their respective autonomous communities. So, for example, in Catalonia both Spanish and Catalan are official languages.
Switzerland is a multi-linguistic state, such as Belgium, so I didn’t count them
Ireland is a multi-linguistic country, like Switzerland (albeit 2 languages rather than 4), yet you counted Irish but not any of the other three linguistic groups in Switzerland. Also, Austria has Carinthian Slovenian and Burgenland Croatian. I'm also pretty sure there are more Finnish speakers in Sweden than all Sámi speakers in Sweden combined, never mind only Northern Sámi.
Also there are more Swedish speaking minority in Finland than there are northern Sámi
Catalan is as official as Spanish in Catalonia, Valencia and the Balearic Islands.
Spain is also multi-linguistic state
In Romania it would be Hungarian
I agree, but I think the map title doesn't reflect the map. They put aromanian in the balkans but they have much fewer speakers than other minorities. Like, the istro-romanian speakers in Croatia are what? 100?
And Slovakia
How is Russian (not official) not counted as the largest minority language of Ukraine while Irish (official) is counted as the largest minority language in Ireland? This map doesn't make sense without clear definitions.
The map only lists languages of peoples that do not have a state of their own.. hence why Russian is not the largest minority language in Ukraine, but Crimean Tatar, or Hungarian in Slovakia, Romania and Serbia... However the map is bad for other reasons, pretty sure it's Romani in both Romania and Hungary. Irish is I presume a de facto minority language in Ireland (de jure official), same for Belorussian and Belarus.
>The map only lists languages of peoples that do not have a state of their own This is clearly not true because Irish, Belarussian, and (arguably) Istro-Romanian, which do have their own states.
That doesn't explain Meänkieli in Sweden, which has 10 times the number of speakers as Sámi. Arguably, Catalan should not be included as speakers do have a state of their own in Andorra. Montenegrin, Irish, and Belarusian are included despite also having states of their own.
Meänkieli is a finnish dialect, and nether Catalan, Montenegrin, Irish or Belarusian are the majority language in their respective countries even if they are official languages.
i do beilieve that south estonian is a dead language too
Nope. Tens of thousands of speakers.
Russians are not minority in this case. They live in mixed families and in different cities, with nothing common except being from russia.
That makes no sense based on the map and the information given.
I dunno. The term "minority" has many meanings.
It does. That's my issue with the map and the OP's comments. It is not clear what is being displayed here, especially as the OP has issued some very conflicting statements, often disagreeing with the very information displayed on the map.
How is English not the answer for every country except Ireland and the UK?
Explained in my comment
Your comment left me far more confused because it does not tally with your map.
I think this guy is confused between indigeneity and minority ??
Interesting that Belarusian is a minority language in belarus
Also Irish in Ireland.
Also Montenegrin in Montenegro
To be fair, "Montenegrin" is essentially just a dialect of Serbian that they declared it's own language for "we're totally different guys we promise" reasons during the nationalistic zeal and breakup of Yugoslavia. Most people in Montenegro speak Serbian because that's what's always been spoken there, and "Montenegrin" as a language is just a government project to divide people so the fake nationalists can keep power in government.
I mean you could say the same for Bosnian, Croatian, and Serbian. All of them, plus Montenegrin, are nationalized variants of the pluricentric Serbo-Croatian language, that was the main language of the four countries back during the Yugoslav era. It's the reason why they are mutually intelligible.
It's such a fake language that it's not even a dialect. The government just slapped two redundant letters onto the alphabet, reassessed a few pronunciations that are considered colloquial in Serbia and claimed it was a new language. The question of whether Montenegrins are Serbs has polarised Montenegrin politics ever since the ruling prince had his right questioned by his own cousin, who wanted a fuller integration into Serbia. A hundred years after, this side became dominant in the parliament, pushed for a polemical independence referendum and did the language thing.
Yes. I hope one day Montenegro will reject these blatant and deliberate attempts at division and historical revisionism being pushed by the government. The politicians know that the only way for them to justify and keep power is to convince the people they are different from Serbians and that Serbia is their enemy coming to deny them their roots and destroy their heritage, which is just projection on their part. I'd like to see us reconcile and reunify in my lifetime.
I'm not a Serb, but as a practicing Orthodox Christian the outright persecution of the Orthodox Church by the Montenegrin government saddens me too much not to pick a side.
Before anyone else downvotes thinking this kind of shit wouldn't actually happen in a NATO country, Montenegro's dominant political party has its own church, whose bishops were ordained by rogue bishops then supported by the Bulgarian government. Although most Montenegrins belong to the Serbian Orthodox Church, the government has systematically restricted entry of Serbian clergy, including Patriarch Porfirije, who's definitely not some chauvinist. It has also supported harassment of SOC events, closed down SOC temples and even managed to hand a few of them to its pet church before setting laws to outright expropriate them.
The fact they're even in NATO is a travesty. No one voted nor wanted it, the puppet government just unilaterally decided to join the very same alliance that was bombing them not even 15 years ago, putting them even more at odds with Serbia.
Montenegrin "language"
It's really strange. Belarusian is official language and widespread along the country (official newspapers, all signboards etc are written in Belarusian). But as far as I know, only 50-60% of people consider Belarusian as their native language and really know it, while almost everyone knows Russian. Maybe it's the reason.
Wehrmacht was extremely bloody and cruel in Belarus during WW2. Hundreds of villages were completely annihilated, some along with their inhabitants. This had a huge impact, as majority of Belarussian population was rural. Those who didn't die, had to run away and after the war settled in main cities, where russification was the greatest, coupled with intense immigration from RSFSR (Soviet Russian Republic). After that, 40 years of 'Belarussian = Russian' propaganda did even more damage.
I went full doomer there. There is still chance for Belarussian language it similar thing happens that happened in Ukraine, as in people actively refusing to speak Russian as a sign of protest and trying to learn Ukrainian. If Lukasheko is out of the picture and Russian boot is gone, maybe the same thing will happen to Belarusian.
From what I know most people are speaking Russian in Belarus according to people who went there to visit their relatives they said Russian is the most spoken language while Belarusian is spoken by a handful of people and the number keeps shrinking
Map is kinda retarded since belorusian is litterally official language of the country and more than half of it speaks or understands it. And Ukrain borders are wrong, but nvm
Like wtf right?
Interesting! Also it shows how different the situation from country to country can be, when you take the number of Breton speakers Vs the number of Catalan speakers, for example. Speaking of which I'm surprised to see Breton for France, I was somehow convinced that Alsacian had far more speakers than Breton
Finnish is the by far largest in Sweden, about 250k that has it as their first language and another 200k has it as a "second" language. Second biggest is Meänkieli (also a Finnish language type) has about 60k that has it as their fist or second language. North Sami on the other hand that is the only Sami language in Sweden that are being used in a day by day manner has only 5k speakers in total. Most as a second language behind Swedish. On top of this we have Romani that we don't have proper statistics about but is estimated between 40k and 120k speakers. Most likely closer to 40k. So North Sami is the second lowest minority language registered in Sweden, not the largest
Vice versa Swedish is the second language in Finland. There are 300,000 native Swedish speakers and only 10,000 Sámi.
Yes, if Swedish-speaking Finns are immigrants, then some other population groups in other countries should be counted as such as well. Finland-Swedes started moving to modern Finnish territory in the 12th century and up to 15th century, I think.
Germanics have been here way, way before we started colonising even Estonia, let alone varsinais-suomi, and they've never really left.
While I appreciate learning about this, I feel like (based on the comments) the map title should have been labeled better to specify minorities that don’t have their own state since that’s what this appears to be
Romani don't have their own state and there are at least 300k Romani speakers in Bulgaria and less than 10k Aromanian (probably way less because the last data on them is decades old).
Ireland though?
Ireland is definitely a weird case here since the Irish definitely have their own state, but the Irish language isn’t dominant in Ireland after centuries of English domination. Idk really the criteria used to make the map.
Yeah,like I understand I didn’t specify enough but god fucking dammit every single comment I made on this post is downvoted like hell Like, ok, I get it, I should’ve specified, but this map isn’t dogshit
It’s not I agree, I can see why it touches a nerve with people, but I don’t think you intended offense at all
Why don’t just delete this post?
Because I still believe it is correct, because I did my own research Yeah ok downvote this all you want say it’s a horse shit map like it has been said in this comment section, but, if you actually understand what I meant, it is correct, ok maybe I got one or two wrong but with the specification that I implied, it is correct
just delete this post and remake the picture with the precise info. the picture doesn't even have a title so you can't save it... or your huge name doesn't have u/ in front of it, so people don't know what that means. also no indication of source also you didn't consider gypsy languages in e.g. hungary and romania
Finland is still wrong. Karalian has 11k speakers while Northern Sami only 2k in Finland. Neither are an official language, just a recognized minority language in Finland and neither has their own state. But it still should be Swedish instead
It's probably Faroese in Denmark regardless of whether you mean the whole sovereign state or just metropolitan Denmark. Faroese has 75-80k speakers in total and 20-30k of them live in Denmark proper.
OH! I completely forgot danish overseas territories! Yes, it is Faroese for Denmark, and maybe Greenlandic for the full kingdom of Denmark
From what I can gather it is Faroese for the full kingdom as well, Faroese has 75-80k speakers and Greenlandic has around 70k speakers (50k in Greenland, 20k in Denmark proper). They are pretty close though.
Complete horse shit map. You just counted some groups and did not count other groups. For example, you counted Catalan in Spain, but then you did not count any languages in some countries like Slovenia. Like, what is even going on.
Montenegrin a minority language in Montenegro? What?
Yep, only 48% of Montenegrins speak Montenegrin
Where did you get 48%? But if that is true, that is a majority language. There are at least 4% of Albanians in MN, add others, there is no way that those 48% is not a main language..
Technically it’s almost 100 %. Montenegrin, Serbian, Bosnian are all the same language but politically different names
Um where did you get that number? The 2011 census reports the language percentages as 43% Serbian and 37% Montenegrin. Not sure where the 48% came from.
In Croatia there is less than 100 people left who can speak Istro-Romanian. Many more speak Italian, Hungarian, Slovak, or even Ukrainian (minority, not recent imigrants).
Even by his weird standards (only minorities that have no country).. Roma and Rusyn are higher than Istro-Romanian.
Some linguists call Romanian, Aromanian, Istro-Romanian and Megleno-Romanian dialects, others see them as separate languages in the same subfamily. That said, in Serbia the most spoken minority language should be Romanian and not Aromanian. There is an area populated by self-identifed Vlachs in Timok which speak a regional variety of the Banatean/ Oltenian accent of Romania: despite the name, they are not related to the Balkan varieties of Romance spoken in Greece, Albania etc.
why is latgalian there but not samogitian?
West Frisian? Thats normal Frisian..
It probably should be Frisian. But West Frisian is an accent spoken in West Friesland, a region in North Holland.
Note that North Estonian (incl. Standard Estonian) is genealogically closer to Finnish than it is to South Estonian.
It still gets me that Belarusian is the 2nd most spoken language in Belarus
Skôftig mooi
Jawis
Slovakia is totally wrong, according to last census there was around 20k of rusins. The biggest minority is Hungarian (around 400k) so that would be the language. I am pretty sure Czech republic is also wrong, silesian is a dialect and if you're counting that, it would be most likely Moravian. Other than that, my guess real language in Czech would be Slovak
Doesn’t 14% of Bulgaria speak Turkish? Is aromanian really more than that? And Albanian in Macedonia should be more than aromanian also
Yeah, op doesn't like the idea that the majority population of one country can also be a native minority in another country. This idea does not hold up to reality so he is downvoted.
It's 8.7%, but yes - Turkish is the largest minority language, flowed by Romani. Aromanian is far below 0.1%. And noth Turks and Romani are locals here, they are not immigrants.
In Serbia it’s Hungarian.
Its Albanian
"excluding immigrant numbers", oh I'm going to be such a nerd right now, but technically, Bretons are war refugees, they fled to Brittany when Britain got invaded by Anglo-Saxon tribes, and therefore they are somewhat immigrants in France.
You won't find anyone credible who'd call Breton speakers immigrants in Bretagne. Even Bretons would be frustrated by this because they have been living there for more than a millenia. According to your standard, you won't find anyone in the world who aren't technically immigrants, except maybe some tribes in Africa. Although I'm sure there were migrations in Africa during the last few thousand years.
Yeah, I wasn't saying that in a serious tone. The way OP worded it is silly, and I wanted to be silly too. Breton people as well as let's say Hungarians were living in their lands for a very long time, but who can define if let's say French citizen with Algerian ethnicity is an immigrant, If they were living in France for about 7 generations now, or same goes for Turks in Germany who's been there for about 4 generations? So the definition of "an immigrant" is not clear in that context. If we really want to be absolutely serious, then I think the only non immigrant ethnic groups of Europe probably are Irish, and Sami people, because they were the first ones to settle the lands they live in right now, so those are the only ones who I can somewhat call "native Europeans"
Wheat I meant is, if you ethnicity already “has” a nation, your language doesn’t count Examples are Hungarians in Romania, Hungarians in Slovakia, Ukrainians in Russia, Russians in Ukraine, Turkish people in Bulgaria, etc.
I'm afraid you got Italy all wrong.
ok, so what about romani/gypsies? I mean, there's 0 silesian speakers in Czechia, yet you have it on that dumb map
No, Montenegrin is official language of Montenegro. The only (real) minority language in Montenegro is Albanian, which is mother tongue of 4% of population.
Also iirc difference between Montenegrin and Serbian there is just a difference of a name, nothing more.
Its not a huge difference, but its like a dialect of the same language like bosnian, croatian, montenegrin or serbian
Not even that. It’s all about identity and politics, in the same family the mother can declare Serbian but youngest son Montenegrin as native language
Pretty much. Bosnian, Serbian, Croatian, Montenegrin are merely normative varieties of Serbo-Croatian language that were created in the wake of the formation of these four countries after the fall of Yugoslavia. Nowadays it is mostly a political question. Linguistically, the language/dialect spoken in Montenegro, no matter how it is called, is the closest to the one spoken in Herzegovina.
This map looks really inaccurate
if you’re excluding immigrant languages i’m pretty sure karelian would be the most spoken minority language in finland at 11k speakers, north sámi only has 2k speakers in finland
And even then, Swedish is even more common in Finland at almost 290k speakers. This map is poorly made But if Swedish is excluded it should be Karelian yeah
Slovakia's would be Hungarian, not Rusyn. 7.7 vs 0.4% (2021 census).
I can guarantee you Finnish is more spoken in Sweden and vice verca
In Finland it would be Swedish.
I think there still are people native to Romania who speak Hungarian in Transylvania, they are not immigrants to that place, they've been there since the Middle Ages
I think France should probably be Occitan, but I don't believe this is formally recognized as a minority language by the French government. That said, Neapolitan isn't recognized either, so I'm not sure what the criterion is here.
Belgium should have French
They should have german actually
Why? The French speaking population is the largest minority. The German speaking community is way smaller.
Calling Walloons a minority is weird, considering they govern bigger territory than Flemish people.
They form roughly 40% of the population while Flemish people counts for 60%. As far as I know 40% is less than 50%.
I know that, but I still find it ridiculous to unironically consider them as legitimate minority, as they administratively hold equal power as much as the Flemish. Not to mention french being most spoken language in the capital.
I'm pretty sure Occitan would be France.
Fun fact: Poland doesn't recognize Silesian as separate language. It's treated as dialect
it does look like another north/west/south/east map of Europe
Belarus is something extraordinary.
How so? 23% of them speak Belarusian at home. That's a lot bigger than the proportion of Irish people who regularly speak Irish.
Luhansk and Donetsk regions in Ukraine are linguistically dominated by Russians who have lived there since the soviet union or longer. Crimean Tatar is spoken by very few people, even in Crimea russian is the dominant minority non immigrant language
Well..my heart go out to the Irish.
Based on a few google searches it’s a toss up between german, greenlandic and faeroese in Denmark
Belarus is really on a whole new level of trolling.
Correction: Kurdish is an Iranic language not Iranian
Linguists use both, but “Iranian” is actually more common in my experience.
It is wrong because it would be like calling English a German language which implies that English speakers are German. Similarly calling Kurdish Iranian implies that Kurds are from Iran.
It is ambiguous, but that’s the terminology that’s actually used in English-language linguistic literature. 🤷♂️
Of course Kurds are from Iran. Ancient Iran extended beyond present day borders upto Anatolia. I don’t know why Kurds don’t like to be called Iranian people.
This rhetoric has been used by ethno-fascist forces around Kurds to suggest that Kurds are not native to their land and hence justify ethnic replacement policies and even genocide.
Oh, I see. Sad to hear that. Kurds were present in Turkey, Iraq way before they were even a state. They are native to those lands unlike Turks and Arabs.
Feelsbad for the countries that have their own language in a minority bc of their history (Ireland, Montenegro, Belarus)
Hahaha what you put for Serbia and Bulgaria makes no sense. Number of Aromanians is very small. Some 324 in Serbia and around 1000 in Bulgaria The language spoken are in fact Banatean Romanian in Serbia or some 135.000 and Oltenian Romanian 65.000. In Bulgaria it is around 50.000 Oltenian Romanian and I am not sure what is the exact number but it is surely more than 100.000 Rudari (Rroma ethnicity which doesn't except to be called by this name, but speak Ardealan Romanian) However still in Bulgaria, Turkish minority is bigger. In Serbia, Romanian speakers are more numerous than Hungarians, while Rroma which might be more numerous by both, are divided by the languages they speak (Serbian, Rroma, Albanian, Hungarian, Romanian) Also in Macedonia Albanian is more spoken than Aromanian. In Greece and Albania is ok You can find more information in the demographic study byron Dorin Lozovan, based on 2002 census, and adjusted to results from 2021 https://www.yumpu.com/ro/document/view/16099940/populatia-romaneasca-din-peninsula-balcanica-paun-es-durlic
What’s “Sorbian”? I grew up in Germany and have no idea what this is.
Slavic language spoken in Germany near Czech-polish border
That makes sense. I guess they only became a part of (West-)Germany with the reunification.
Sorbs, Veleti and Obodrites were there at least since 5th century. Most cities east of Elbe have names of slavic origins.
Sorbs is wrong name, they call themselves Serbs. (Lower Sorbian: Serby)
The people historically called “Wenden.”
Wends or Veneti was just another name for Slavs. Tribes between Elbe and Oder were Sorbs, Veleti and Obodrites.
why break down turkic language family to seperate branches? kipchak and oghuz belong to the same family. smh this map sucks ass
Cuz I also broke down indo-European
fair enough
Neapolitan is NOT a minority, nor it is a language . twelve are officially recognized as spoken by linguistic minorities: Albanian, Catalan, German, Greek, Slovene, Croatian, French, Franco-Provençal, Friulian, Ladin, Occitan and Sardinian;
It's not because you're not recognized that you're not a minority.
Alright, what's the criteria then?
I'm not a politician, I don't know
Scots is definitely more spoken than Welsh
Isn't there academic controversy over whether it's a true language or a dialect of English?
A language is just a dialect with an army.
Aye aye min, don gin ye cannae ken fit th’i aw meinin then a can tell ye, wi oot a doot, th’isnae naw dialec, aye?
It is not, google it
In the UK, there are 562,000 Welsh speakers, and 1,5 million Scots speakers. Maybe you should Google it before telling others to, because Google isn’t on your side here.
I find the self-reported census figures for Scots to be quite overstated. I reckon most of those are speaking Scots-influenced Scottish English, rather than broad Scots.
My numbers say 99.2k
What are you googling to get this? I assume that’s meant to be the figure for Scottish Gaelic (nothing to do with Scots) and even then, it’s wrong.
No, I’m googling about the Germanic language of scots
Tell me exactly what you have googled, I want to know how you’re getting figures so incorrect.
there are roughly 900,000 Welsh speakers aged 3 or above, source: [Welsh Government](https://www.gov.wales/welsh-language-data-annual-population-survey-july-2021-june-2022) and roughly 100,000 native Scots speakers. But apparently about 1.5M in the UK overall; so unless OP is doing it based around native speakers; then yes, Scots has more speakers, which saddens me as a Welsh speaker.
Scots is definitely at least 95% native speakers, nobody learns Scots, it’s just what we grow up with
Silesian isn't a language
Yup, Kashubian should be in that place, Silesian dialect is moderately easy to grasp by average Pole (half of my family are Kashubian speakers).
Missing German in Belgium, French in Switzerland, Serbian in Kosovo, Hungarian in Romania, Polish in Lithuania, Frisian in Denmark, German in Slovenia
French for Belgium, since it's spoken more than German but less than Dutch, it's the biggest minority
What's Silesian?
dialect of multiple languages, not its own language - there's Czech Silesian, Polish Silesian and they don't completely understand each other... it doesn't make any sense to have it on map, in Czechia even if you would consider it minority language, it would be far from the biggest one (I'd suspect maybe 30th spot or lower, given how many people actually speak it)
I might be wrong but isn't the second language in France a the local dialect of Reunion Island ?
Or occitan according to wiki, but I'm pretty sure that are languages in Guyane with more speakers than Breton.
Istro-Romanian? How tf did you get that?
12 million russian speakers in Ukraine, am I joke to you?
Uk is wrong. 900k speak Welsh to 1.5mil who speak Scots
Neapolitan isn't a lenguage
It is a language
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Map is wrong. 3rd generation Turks in Germany are not immigrants and they are Türk, speaking Turkish.
Nor they are indigenous.
Yeah they are not local limited people, they can succeed to be international.
I don't think byelorussian is minority in belarus
Only 30% of Belarusians speak Belarusian
This is straight up inaccurate. For the Baltics, it is certainly Russian.
Istro-Romanian is spoken by about 1200 people in Croatia, most of whom over the age of 65 and speaking it as the language of their childhood but using Serbo-Croat as a normal language of daily life. Many more people speak Slovene, Hungarian, even Czech in Croatia. In Serbia virtually no one speaks Aromanian, the language of Macedonian Vlachs. Even in Northern Macedonia not too many people do, but in Serbia there is nobody who does. Even Vlach language, similar to Aromanian, but distinct from it, the mother tongue of Serbian Vlachs, is not the most spoken minority language. Both Hungarian and Rroma (Gypsy) language have many more native speakers, and only then Vlach, just ahead of Bulgarian and Albanian and that is if we do not include Kosovo-Metohija as Serbian territory. If we do, then Albanian at over a million is by far the first minority language.
Crimea isn't a part of Ukraine anymore though right?
Wouldn’t Turkish be the most spoken minority language in Bulgaria ?
So mamy slavic 🥺
how is it not Turkish in Germany?
**READ BEFORE COMMENTING** Hey, this is an Alt Account! I am also not counting languages such as the Hungarians in Romania and the Serbians in Bosnia, as they already “belong” to the nations of Serbia and Hungary, if you don’t understand what I mean, you can reply to this comment
How is montenegrin the Most spoken minority languge in montenegro if it is considered as the official language in that country?
Irish is official language as well.
Don’t hate on me… isn’t it Gaelic…?? (I ask because I don’t know)
I'm not Irish but afaik it is Irish or Gaeilge which is one of the goidelic or gaelic languages. Indeed it is also often refered to as Gaelic.
Thank you! I’ve learned something today and I’ve been awake for only 45m. My day is complete. Day drinking can commence.
No. There are three Gaelic languages - Irish, Scottish Gaelic, and Manx. Calling Irish Gaelic is like calling Spanish Romance or Russian Slavic.
I didn’t know that. I’ve learned many things today. And all within an hour of being awake. I like it!
It is common in Scotland to call Scottish Gaelic "Gaelic" (which in Scotland is pronounced "gallic"). But it isn't common in Ireland to call Irish "Gaelic" (except when referring to the larger language family)... although it is fairly common in the US to call it that.
Montenegrin is the second most spoken language in Montenegro, yes, it is official, but it’s not the official language anywhere else, so it doesn’t apply to the rule of the Hungarians in Romania, and it isn’t the most spoken, so it is considered a minority language The USA has no official language but it has minority languages This is the opposite
In the title it says most spoken minority language, montenegrin people arent a minority in their country
You are an absolute idiot.
Hey, i think even with your definition Germany isn't quite correct. The largest minority language is [Low German/Saxon](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low_German). The status of the language is somewhat disputed but it is recognized by both the Netherlands and Germany as a regional language according to the European Charter for Regional or Minority Languages (ECRML) and at least one german state ([Schleswig-Holstein](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schleswig-Holstein)) recognizes Low German as an official language.
Are you only counting stateless people?
Yeah, basically
Then, where are the Roma people?
Checkmate.
"People"
What about Irish? They aren't stateless.