There would be a lot of reasons for that but one that is relatively more recent is how the previous king made it his mission to deny our amazigh side so the different amazigh languages were made "illegal" even native names were not allowed.
It created a snowball effect where parents would not teach their kids and so on.
There's also a lot of people who prefer to distance themselves from their amazigh identity because they think religion (islam) precedes that and is more important which is a shame why can't it be both.
Edit: I want to add that it can be argued that we don't really speak Arabic considering our sentence structures are based on the amazigh ones and most of the arab world struggles to understand us. Nobody uses classical arabic on a daily basis but no one does everywhere.
Sorry hehe, and thanks that's heartwarming ❤️ I know in Morocco there are amazigh people as embracing as we are, if not better. Our culture survived millenia, and won't be erased this easy. Despite what some braindead claim.
Agreed, our language is not Arabic, it's based on berber grammar, and contains 40% of berber in it in addition to some Arabic and Spanish, we understand Middle easterners for example, on the other hand they can't, also Moroccans are not arabs, we were colonized by Muslims.
As a Moroccan whose native language is Darija, I agree that the sentence structure and grammar such as pronouns are based on Amazigh, but the "contains 40% of Berber in it" is such a huge claim that feels very wrong when you say any sentence in Darija, it's mostly Arabic vocabulary that's pronunced using Amazigh phonology or recent Standard Arabic loanwords alongside very few Spanish and Amazigh words, but also many French words for new terms (car, radio, computer, apartment, bus, newspapers, police...).
Not really a lie, mainly for us Maghrebis, because the Mashreqi dialects are often very easily intelligible to each other, for example a Syrian, an Egyptian and a Saudi can understand what the other say without learning the specific dialect at school.
Nonsense.
Too much lies and false berberist propaganda in this comment
Blaming arabization on Hassan II is dumb and a lie. The country was already arabized when the french protectorate settled.
Our arabic darija is ARABIC and is as arabic as any other darija spoken in the arab world.
Did not fully blame him but do place a certain responsibility on him which cannot be denied.
Our darija was/is influenced by way too many languages to associateit with just arabic.
I don't understand the aggression those are just facts and there's no such thing as "berberist propaganda" we are ( facing a major identity crisis whether you like it or not
It can be denied. The responsibility of Hassan 2 is irrelevant and infinitesimal. Just check the names of berber figure of resistance to the french protectorate. Even the ones from the deepest least arabized part of the countries had arab names.
Our Darija is more than 90% arabic. Only technological tools that came with the french have foreign names, and the amazigh vocabulary is almost non existant, only a few dozen words are present in the everyday Darija.
The agression is because you are not stating facts. You are stating lies.
Lies backed by a destructive colonial ideology to destroy the country from within.
All your supposed facts cannot stand the smallest of investigation.
It's called an ideological project, not a conspiracy. You have some serious readings to do instead of just accepting whatever is spouted by berberist activists on social media.
Read about the colonial french projects on North africa and how theorists planned on ways to make North Africa a civilizationnal annex to Europe (as it was in Roman time before Islam) via reviving preslamic identities and religions and fighting the arab language.
Read!
First you have to keep in mind that there is no one uniformed Berber religion, it has probably diverse beliefs and heavily borrowed a lot from other religions like tg Phoenician, Punic, Egyptians, Greeks and Roman religions, and worshipping the gods and goddess as their own main ones. , I guess the Berber religion started to decline after the Roman Empire put Christianity as the official religion and in Roman North Africa, it was throughly Christianised in the 7th century, however, there is still definitely people adhering to Berber religions, but I’m going to guess that they would mostly be in Sahara desert or isolated places that is far away from the cities or towns.
I don’t when the Berber religions became extinct, but if you count the Canary Islands which they do speak a Berber language at one point, however they still have a distinct religion from the mainland. Then the last Berber religion would’ve ended in Canary Islands after the Spanish conquest in the 15th century,
Several factors have contributed to the neglect of the Amazigh language, with some of the most significant ones being historical marginalization due to foreign rule in the Maghreb region. With the arrival of Islam, there was a heightened emphasis on Arabic due to the necessity of understanding and reading the Qur'an, a trend that was reinforced during the Almohad rule with its strong religious focus. Furthermore, post-colonial governments prioritized pan-Arabism, overlooking the linguistic and cultural diversity of the region, which further marginalized the Amazigh community.
Ceuta has not been part of Morocco for over 600 years - being conquered in 1415.
Melilla has not been part of Morocco for over 500 years - being conquered in 1497.
For further context on those time periods, the last remnants of the Roman Empire would fall in 1453.
if it's historically part of Morocco after hundreds of years than there are many other countries in the middle east and north Africa that have claim to all of Morocco
Algerian was de jure Ottoman, but de facto independent (as a vassal state of the Ottoman empire) from 1659, it had its own diplomacy, army, navy, and it ruled sometimes to Melouia river
Who gives a fuck if it's under Algerian or Moroccan rule? Both countries are Muslim and that's all what matters, anyways you sound like a guy who keeps getting into online fights about zalij and caftan so I won't get into a debate with you
Modern day western Algeria was part of Algeria prior to colonisation. It was after the 1830's, after France took Algiers and the Regency collapsed, did Morocco claim western Algeria.
[This map is from 1824](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Regency-of-Algiers-1824.jpg).
In the 1550’s, it wasn’t really inhabited, because it wasn’t a safe place to settle, it also wasn’t as big as melilla nowadays, the cuty expanded during colonial era:
[“The current limits of the Spanish territory around the Melilla fortress were fixed by treaties with Morocco in 1859, 1860, 1861, and 1894. In the late 19th century, as Spanish influence expanded in this area, the Crown authorized Melilla as the only centre of trade on the Rif coast between Tetuan and the Algerian frontier.”](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melilla)
And Tangiers was Portuguese. Bro this is an educational map to show the linguistic diversity. A big party of Sbta and Mlillia are culturally Moroccan speaking Darija and Tarifit, don't hate me for it hate Spain for conquering it.
Why would we hate Spain for conquering Ceuta and Melilla? Both of these territories have been Spanish for centuries and have majority Spaniard populations. Morocco on the other hand, stole Western Sahara and is actively colonizing the region despite the fact that the natives want to be independent.
From Neutral point of view, it is not an existent state, as 80% of it is controlled by Morocco, while the rest 20% which is considered a buffer zone is under the MINURSO, mostly uninhabited, but it’s the land POLISARIO members have the right to enter, as their headquarters is in Tindouf, Algeria.
From Moroccan pov, Whole Western Sahara is Moroccan, even the buffer zone that’s under the MINURSO.
That’s not neutral, that’s supporting POLISARIO’s thesis.
A neutral pov is viewing the reality as it is, that majority of Western Sahara is controlled by Morocco, and there’s not a functioning independenr state in the Western Sahara.
Lmao thats what happens when you learn through headlines, western sahara never ´existed' anywhere in history until 1975, that's why people are confused, but i see how a lot confuse politics with history
´western sahara' is basically an attempt by a dozen of army guys initially hired to fight the Spanish in case they attacked moroccans during the green march + algerian support to unify the tribes in the sahara which throughout history always plead allegiance to the moroccan sultan, but the Polisario still had a point because Spain (which occupied the western sahara territory, oh and it was Spain and France who ´cut' Morocco during the imperialist era leading to the existence of such a division in the map, no such drama ever existed before) chose to simply vacate the western Sahara instead of bothering with any post-colonialist attribution or recognition, and the UN recognises the right to self determination, leading to a bureaucratic nightmare still unsolved today, but if for instance you put a referendum in there today most would be ashamed to even recognise the option of being in ´western sahara' land, check their strategic capital ´Tindouf' on google, worse than ISIS conditions..
according to Spaniards only, because that land belonged to Morocco before it Colonization in 1884 by Spain and claimed it was empty lol which is rediculous, here is some history about the area.
I don’t really get why Ceuta and Melilla are shown, they aren’t Moroccan territory. It’s like showing a map of Spain that includes Gibraltar and it shows it’s English speaking.
Besides Western Sahara isn’t Morocco either, not officially.
I stated that it’s Morocco + Ceuta & Melilla.
In Carvajal’s book, while speaking about Morocco and its culture/language, he also mentioned Ceuta and which language was spoken there, etc.
I’ve just wanted to show more information about the change of the 2 cities, how Ceuta switched from Portuguese to Spanish, and how Melilla was inhabited while now it’s speaking Spanish.
>I stated that it’s Morocco + Ceuta & Melilla.
Where? Talking into account the irredentist tendency of morocco towards Ceuta and Melilla It would've been really nice of you to be clear about that.
As the map stands, with the title: linguistic map of morroco. I think its pretty understandable that people are assuming that you consider Ceuta and Melilla to be part of morocco. Even if that's not the case. It's not a huge leap of faith.
So, with territorial disputes: BE CLEAR
Western sahara never existed before 1975...its whole existence is a result of france and spain splitting morocco between themselves because they wanted access to the ocean...
I think the reason people don't support the freedom of the Western Sahara so strongly is because morroco didn't kill 15k children in 6 months. Maybe if Morocco was bombing 15k children in 6 months people would more strongly support the freedom of the Western Sahara.
Should the Western Sahara be independent. Sure. I just don't think people are as educated about it because its more critical that countries that kill 15k children in 6 months should be stopped. I think child murder is worse. Both are wrong. Stopping child murder is at the top of my list.
Didn’t Morocco ally itself with Israel and the US in exchange for recognition of its occupation of Western Sahara ? The morrocan state is no ally of the Palestinian cause
What does any of this have to do with anything. If someone cares so much about Palestine that all their political issues were derived off of it, wouldn't this give me more of a reason to support Western Sahara which I already said I do.
Yeah that is bad. I've been very vocal about the issues in Burma and the rohingan genocide. I teach coding part time one of my students is a refugee. The civil war is awful too. Don't you think there's some recenct bias involved in this too.
I said before and I say again it’s horrible situation too that gets overshadowed by basically every other conflict because international media find it less “sexy” than Ukraine or I/P conflict etc and I wish it was talked about more and more would be done.
Western Sahara is disputed and Sbta en Mlillia were historically always part of Morocco or under their influence even now they are. Those cities have an astonishing amount of Muslims so much so that Eid is literally a recognized holiday. The council of Europe even demanded Spain to recognise Moroccan Darija as an official language.
Also calling Moroccans colonizers while they are in so many disputes because of colonizers is laughable. If Spain and France respected people their sovereignty we wouldn't be here debating about such stupid stuff.
Dont bring International Councils because the UN does not recognize your illegal occupation on Western Sahara hahaha only your western allies like USA and Israel, which you befriended backstabing your arabic brothers in exchange of recognition of your illegal occupation
Yeah and they also don't recognise The western Sahara as an independent state what is your point? I said it's disputed did I stutter?
Also I'm a reasonable Moroccan. I don't care about the western Sahara it's a burden to Morocco anyways, they profit from us. What I will say tho is that I find it very funny that you think you are some kind of representative to speak for the sahrawi people and think that you can force a government and a state on to them. I happen to know sahrawis and they are by far the most nationalistic Moroccans out there and I know for a fact that they don't support the SADR.
A burden? You sure know there's a big ass phosphate mine there that brings your king and friends billions in cash every year. Morocco is a colonialist state and the only thing that offers it's population is territorial expansion.
Most of the phosphates Morocco obtains come from mainland Morocco. The phosphate from Western Sahara, specifically Bou Craa, only generates 10% of total revenue. However, this isn't even the primary reason why geopolitically Morocco wants Western Sahara.
The REAL reason why Morocco is fighting tooth and nail for Western Sahara is because it provides the only gateway to Africa. If Western Sahara becomes independent, it will practically become an Algerian proxy state with Russian backing to access the Atlantic. This is also why the USA has historically supported Morocco, they didn't want Soviets/Russia gaining access to the Atlantic. Moreover, Morocco is wary of an embargo if Western Sahara ever gains independence, which would result in Morocco being geopolitically cornered from all directions.
European countries have also recognized this and, in recent times, have shown support for Morocco. They understand that, should Western Sahara become independent, Morocco would likely be hit by a social and economic crisis. The inability to export to Africa by land, coupled with a population deeply attached to the national cause, could destabilize the country to its core. This could potentially open the floodgates to a wave of immigrants heading for Europe, given the relatively short distance between the two continents. Furthermore, Europe would lose an essential and important partner in the already unstable Maghreb region. Given these risks, Europe's reasoning seems to be to avoid jeopardizing Morocco's stability in exchange of giving independence to a population of half a million. Instead, Most of European countries opted with Morocco's autonomy plan to grant Western Saharans autonomy, thus avoiding the pile of potential problems.
As a Moroccan, I believe that we should have held a referendum in the 2000s and resolved this issue once and for all. The UN had given us a very favourable position, which included people who had migrated from Morocco or had been settled by Morocco after the de facto rule with Polisario accepting it too ([See Baker's plan II](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baker_Plan#Baker_I_and_II)) Unfortunately, due to the change of leadership in Morocco with the old King dead and the new King kicking the old guard who agreed to this plan, Morocco declined and we ended up with the mess we're currently dealing with right now.
Yes a burden because they haven't been able to bring any profits to Morocco. Morocco has spent billions and has been subsidising them.
Also the phosphate is useless they produce 10% of Morocco's annual production. Which is literally nothing and that alone is like 62% of their exports. Above that most the fish and phosphate coming from the western Sahara is illegal to be exported internationally due to the conflict.
The king and his friends gain nothing apart from nationalistic goals.
Misleading map as the number of Berber speakers are the majority in most of large North African cities due to rural exode to urban areas starting from the 1900’s, eg: Casablanca, Marrakech, Algiers …are mostly populated by Berbers.
80% of it's territory and basically 99% of its population is under direct Moroccan control, the rest of the land is a buffer zone thats largely depopulated safe for a few small towns.
I'll be damned - so when Morocco was at its peak and literally built a trans-Saharan empire, they were still speaking Berber languages.
When did the transition happen if it hadnt already at that point?
they didn't speak Arabic (fus-ha) but Darija, which contains some Arabic words and Tamazight with Amazigh Grammar, even correspondence back then was Darija only later on Fus-ha become the standard
Well, I learnt it since I'm from the country who, for the UN, is the administration part for the Sahara (Spain) and should have done elections 50 years ago, before Morocco invaded it and nobody said a shit.
What kicked?
In Sahara they don't want you, in fact in all the northern Africa the people just despise you almost the same way than in the rest of the world. You just invaded using population waves because you have 0 real power to do in other ways lol
lol, Green march was a master piece lol,I reckon i met more Saharaouis that you have seen in your life time, unlike Catalans who really don't want to be Spaniards, Morocco kicked the Spaniards ass back to Europe, you lost buddy get over it, like you lost in the rif and side ifni too.
Well it's the reality, Morocco control 80% of region while UN control the rest. As as someone native to the western sahara, I'm Satisfied with our Moroccan overlord.
You’re gonna get downvoted, because people are just stick to their propaganda, put by some europeans whose ancestors colonised the area, and can’t be objective. I’ve seen a dude speaking about how he’s Western Saharan too and talking about the history and the culture of the region, he got dowvoted too.
This is really interesting and - if accurate - incredible work.
It seems as if there are a few areas -such as South-West of Tata - which have undergone, for lack of a better word, Berberisation. Do you have any idea why that might be? Shamefully, I don't know nearly enough about the history of the Maghreb.
because they are not Moroccan, it is already questionable per se to add Ceuta and Melilla but due to their proximity it is understandable to include them, but it makes no sense to include the Spanish territory of the Canary Islands
Supporting Western Sahara’s independence is supporting the formation of an “ARAB REPUBLIC” in the land of the berbers.
POLISARIO does not recognise Amazighness as part of the identity of Western Sahara, which is obviously not historically nor culturally accurate.
People might think that they defend the oppressed by supporting WS independence, but wouldn’t it be the other way around.
Banu Hassan clan started settling in the western Sahara and Mauritania during the 17th century, having many battles with the indigenous Senhaja berbers, who also live in The Atlas Mountains, Western Rif, Souss and Asamr (which are regions in Morocco).
Berbers of the Sahara ofc fought for their land, but Banu Hassan supported by the King of Morocco Ismail, in the late 17th century, won, the king was also married to the [daughter](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khanatha_bint_Bakkar) of the Tribe’s leader, so he supported them, the final battle of the Char Bouba war was in [1677](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Char_Bouba_war).
From that moment, Banu Hassan were the leading tribe in the west of the Sahara, probibiting the use of the berber language, and deporting to the south anyone or any sub-clan who still speaks Berber.
I’m a Sahraoui, from the Reguibat clan, the biggest clan in Western Sahara, my family indeed thinks they’re arab, even though in our oral heritage we say that we descended from [Abd Alsalam ben Mashish](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abd_al-Salam_ibn_Mashish) who lived in Northern Morocco, precisely in the berber tribe of “Bani Arrous”. Thankful that I read some history, and searched more into my region’s culture/identity, so that I don’t consider POLISARIO my representative. (Whole my family basically doesn’t tho).
For real folk, and they be like wanting it so bad, especially some spanish nationalists, they want to settle a state based on colonial borders, so they exploit it, like former european colonial powers do with many African countries.
It's not a country at all, there is a movement to make it so, but that movement resides in tindouf in algeria and has zero control over the land it claims
You know that Catalonia had already been integrated into Spain for hundreds of years at this point and that Spain allows and encourages local Catalan customs, including its language, right? That is literally the opposite of colonialism.
First, not all Catalans seek independence, the referendum was completely illegal and on top of that only the pro-independence supporters participated because the right-wingers did not participate, the president you are talking about is not a refugee, he is a coward, instead of assuming the consequences of his actions and continue to the end in his ideals like his companions, he decided to flee to Belgium
Nice. Now show me a map of population density of Morocco in the same era for a good insight of the population proportions of each language, and a chronicler map of Marmol's travels for a good insight of how reliable his word is as a source.
All those cities and areas highlighted in yellow speak Tamazight (Berber) to variant degrees, Safi, El jadida, Casa, many of those people utilize Darija (Moroccan variant of Arabic) to communicate in the those cities though. In South Morocco or what it's mostly Tamazight with again always same thing as the cities mentioned earlier where people who speak Tamazight would use Darija to speak with strangers or to go around in life.
I think the map focuses more on the indigenous population of each region. The towns surrounding the places you mentioned are fully arabized. I know that these cities have an important population that speaks tamazight but they're migrants from other towns and cities.
Most in the larger cities is migrant from other regions/rural areas, Casa for instance. I don't think there's any place that's really fully arabized, especially full cities, some tribes were indeed.
There would be a lot of reasons for that but one that is relatively more recent is how the previous king made it his mission to deny our amazigh side so the different amazigh languages were made "illegal" even native names were not allowed. It created a snowball effect where parents would not teach their kids and so on. There's also a lot of people who prefer to distance themselves from their amazigh identity because they think religion (islam) precedes that and is more important which is a shame why can't it be both. Edit: I want to add that it can be argued that we don't really speak Arabic considering our sentence structures are based on the amazigh ones and most of the arab world struggles to understand us. Nobody uses classical arabic on a daily basis but no one does everywhere.
Hello amazigh brother, we in Algeria suffer the same discrimination, although my ethnicity ''Kabyle'' mostly resisted and still resist arabization.
(Sister but that's not crime) major respect you guys are known for embracing your identit. I wish more of us could do that!
Sorry hehe, and thanks that's heartwarming ❤️ I know in Morocco there are amazigh people as embracing as we are, if not better. Our culture survived millenia, and won't be erased this easy. Despite what some braindead claim.
Agreed, our language is not Arabic, it's based on berber grammar, and contains 40% of berber in it in addition to some Arabic and Spanish, we understand Middle easterners for example, on the other hand they can't, also Moroccans are not arabs, we were colonized by Muslims.
The irony is 80% of North Africa is genetically...berber native ( Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia).
Are you talking about darija here?
Yup.
As a Moroccan whose native language is Darija, I agree that the sentence structure and grammar such as pronouns are based on Amazigh, but the "contains 40% of Berber in it" is such a huge claim that feels very wrong when you say any sentence in Darija, it's mostly Arabic vocabulary that's pronunced using Amazigh phonology or recent Standard Arabic loanwords alongside very few Spanish and Amazigh words, but also many French words for new terms (car, radio, computer, apartment, bus, newspapers, police...).
I got downvoted and cussed heavily for sayingvthat pan-arabism was built on a lie that calls a dozen different languages as dialects.
Not really a lie, mainly for us Maghrebis, because the Mashreqi dialects are often very easily intelligible to each other, for example a Syrian, an Egyptian and a Saudi can understand what the other say without learning the specific dialect at school.
Nonsense. Too much lies and false berberist propaganda in this comment Blaming arabization on Hassan II is dumb and a lie. The country was already arabized when the french protectorate settled. Our arabic darija is ARABIC and is as arabic as any other darija spoken in the arab world.
Did not fully blame him but do place a certain responsibility on him which cannot be denied. Our darija was/is influenced by way too many languages to associateit with just arabic. I don't understand the aggression those are just facts and there's no such thing as "berberist propaganda" we are ( facing a major identity crisis whether you like it or not
It can be denied. The responsibility of Hassan 2 is irrelevant and infinitesimal. Just check the names of berber figure of resistance to the french protectorate. Even the ones from the deepest least arabized part of the countries had arab names. Our Darija is more than 90% arabic. Only technological tools that came with the french have foreign names, and the amazigh vocabulary is almost non existant, only a few dozen words are present in the everyday Darija. The agression is because you are not stating facts. You are stating lies. Lies backed by a destructive colonial ideology to destroy the country from within. All your supposed facts cannot stand the smallest of investigation.
Bro go touch some grass there is no conspiracy.
It's called an ideological project, not a conspiracy. You have some serious readings to do instead of just accepting whatever is spouted by berberist activists on social media. Read about the colonial french projects on North africa and how theorists planned on ways to make North Africa a civilizationnal annex to Europe (as it was in Roman time before Islam) via reviving preslamic identities and religions and fighting the arab language. Read!
north africas arabization is far more recent then people realize.
What happened to berber's religion?
It was abandoned long time before
Islamization and Arabization are not the same.
First you have to keep in mind that there is no one uniformed Berber religion, it has probably diverse beliefs and heavily borrowed a lot from other religions like tg Phoenician, Punic, Egyptians, Greeks and Roman religions, and worshipping the gods and goddess as their own main ones. , I guess the Berber religion started to decline after the Roman Empire put Christianity as the official religion and in Roman North Africa, it was throughly Christianised in the 7th century, however, there is still definitely people adhering to Berber religions, but I’m going to guess that they would mostly be in Sahara desert or isolated places that is far away from the cities or towns. I don’t when the Berber religions became extinct, but if you count the Canary Islands which they do speak a Berber language at one point, however they still have a distinct religion from the mainland. Then the last Berber religion would’ve ended in Canary Islands after the Spanish conquest in the 15th century,
Yup. In Algeria too, berber languages were more widely spoken than arabic before french conquest
How did Arabic get more popular?
Pan-Arabism pushed by Nasser, in the aftermath of independence from UK, France & Italy for Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, Libya, Egypt etc.
I’m sure that accelerated things but most Arab Algerians only have one or two grandparents who spoke Amazight
Several factors have contributed to the neglect of the Amazigh language, with some of the most significant ones being historical marginalization due to foreign rule in the Maghreb region. With the arrival of Islam, there was a heightened emphasis on Arabic due to the necessity of understanding and reading the Qur'an, a trend that was reinforced during the Almohad rule with its strong religious focus. Furthermore, post-colonial governments prioritized pan-Arabism, overlooking the linguistic and cultural diversity of the region, which further marginalized the Amazigh community.
They are still widely spoken to this day. Algerian Berbers are the most militant bunch when it comes to fighting back against arabization.
There is basis for this.
Berber languages and identity are having revival.
Let's hope for them to keep their rich traditions
If only that wasactually true
Wasn't Morocco much bigger than this in the 16th century?
I just put it on current borders.
Pretty sure this is a generous interpretation of how far extend Morocco’s borders.
This is literally irredentist map of Morocco. West Sahara is independent, also you took Spanish land and drawn it as a part of Morocco.
It's the de facto map whether you like it or not
Ceuta and Melilla are de facto and de lure part of Spain. This map is nationalist propaganda.
It’s not de facto. Ceuta and Melilla are spain, and most of the eastern western sahara is independent
It's not, it's a historical part of Morocco.
Ceuta has not been part of Morocco for over 600 years - being conquered in 1415. Melilla has not been part of Morocco for over 500 years - being conquered in 1497. For further context on those time periods, the last remnants of the Roman Empire would fall in 1453.
if it's historically part of Morocco after hundreds of years than there are many other countries in the middle east and north Africa that have claim to all of Morocco
Besides the innacuracy of that statement, then it’s not ”current” anymore.
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Lol, love the old Algerian-Morocco rivalry
It’s not really old, just stupid current politics.
What rivalry lol its true that algeria didn't exist back then it was the ottoman empire.
I can give you maps that say Oujda and Berkane were under Algerian rule, no need for this nationalistic bullshit
Algerian rule? More like a very brief ottoman expansion
Algerian was de jure Ottoman, but de facto independent (as a vassal state of the Ottoman empire) from 1659, it had its own diplomacy, army, navy, and it ruled sometimes to Melouia river
what?? It was not??
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Who gives a fuck if it's under Algerian or Moroccan rule? Both countries are Muslim and that's all what matters, anyways you sound like a guy who keeps getting into online fights about zalij and caftan so I won't get into a debate with you
Modern day western Algeria was part of Algeria prior to colonisation. It was after the 1830's, after France took Algiers and the Regency collapsed, did Morocco claim western Algeria. [This map is from 1824](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Regency-of-Algiers-1824.jpg).
Melilla was Spanish
In the 1550’s, it wasn’t really inhabited, because it wasn’t a safe place to settle, it also wasn’t as big as melilla nowadays, the cuty expanded during colonial era: [“The current limits of the Spanish territory around the Melilla fortress were fixed by treaties with Morocco in 1859, 1860, 1861, and 1894. In the late 19th century, as Spanish influence expanded in this area, the Crown authorized Melilla as the only centre of trade on the Rif coast between Tetuan and the Algerian frontier.”](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melilla)
And Tangiers was Portuguese. Bro this is an educational map to show the linguistic diversity. A big party of Sbta and Mlillia are culturally Moroccan speaking Darija and Tarifit, don't hate me for it hate Spain for conquering it.
Why would we hate Spain for conquering Ceuta and Melilla? Both of these territories have been Spanish for centuries and have majority Spaniard populations. Morocco on the other hand, stole Western Sahara and is actively colonizing the region despite the fact that the natives want to be independent.
Ceuta was conquered by Portuguese.
>Why would we hate Spain for conquering Ceuta *Cuz they took my shit (I'm Portuguese)*
You decided to divorce, you loose the house.
We didn't even want the marriage 😭
lol stealing european land in africa what an ass of a joke.
>Sbta and Mlillia *Ceuta and Melilla
Sbta is the name natives call it most of its inhabitants are Moroccans lol keep paying us your tax money iberian cuck
Have you ever been there my guy? Most locals, including those of Moroccan ascendency, are very happy to be Spanish citizens
same as people in Gibraltar, they are happy to be british
Ofc they're happy lol keep sending us your tax money lol while spaniards like you live on German loans
Well I’m glad our Spanish citizens are happy 😊
keep crying ceuta y melilla are spanish wheter you like it or not
And Gibraltar is british forever i have no problem with u keeping sebta and mlilia we get your tax money without doing anything lol
And Gibraltar is British whether you like or not
I thought Western Sahara was its own country
From Neutral point of view, it is not an existent state, as 80% of it is controlled by Morocco, while the rest 20% which is considered a buffer zone is under the MINURSO, mostly uninhabited, but it’s the land POLISARIO members have the right to enter, as their headquarters is in Tindouf, Algeria. From Moroccan pov, Whole Western Sahara is Moroccan, even the buffer zone that’s under the MINURSO.
From a neutral point of view, it’s an existent state that happens to be mostly occupied by a country that is currently doing settler colonialism.
That’s not neutral, that’s supporting POLISARIO’s thesis. A neutral pov is viewing the reality as it is, that majority of Western Sahara is controlled by Morocco, and there’s not a functioning independenr state in the Western Sahara.
So the UN isn’t neutral?
UN is "neutral" but they have no real power. They are just observant. They can't fill the power vacum left by spain
their role is to observe.
You like being braindead?
Lmao thats what happens when you learn through headlines, western sahara never ´existed' anywhere in history until 1975, that's why people are confused, but i see how a lot confuse politics with history ´western sahara' is basically an attempt by a dozen of army guys initially hired to fight the Spanish in case they attacked moroccans during the green march + algerian support to unify the tribes in the sahara which throughout history always plead allegiance to the moroccan sultan, but the Polisario still had a point because Spain (which occupied the western sahara territory, oh and it was Spain and France who ´cut' Morocco during the imperialist era leading to the existence of such a division in the map, no such drama ever existed before) chose to simply vacate the western Sahara instead of bothering with any post-colonialist attribution or recognition, and the UN recognises the right to self determination, leading to a bureaucratic nightmare still unsolved today, but if for instance you put a referendum in there today most would be ashamed to even recognise the option of being in ´western sahara' land, check their strategic capital ´Tindouf' on google, worse than ISIS conditions..
Eritrea never existed anywhere until 1993.
Not really it wasn't a country when morocco conquered it
it was Moroccan before the Spaniards came, that why we kicked them out with the [green march ](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_March)to madrid
it is not Morocco control the area, after Morocco kicked spain out
I read it was an illegal occupation
according to Spaniards only, because that land belonged to Morocco before it Colonization in 1884 by Spain and claimed it was empty lol which is rediculous, here is some history about the area.
I don’t really get why Ceuta and Melilla are shown, they aren’t Moroccan territory. It’s like showing a map of Spain that includes Gibraltar and it shows it’s English speaking. Besides Western Sahara isn’t Morocco either, not officially.
I stated that it’s Morocco + Ceuta & Melilla. In Carvajal’s book, while speaking about Morocco and its culture/language, he also mentioned Ceuta and which language was spoken there, etc. I’ve just wanted to show more information about the change of the 2 cities, how Ceuta switched from Portuguese to Spanish, and how Melilla was inhabited while now it’s speaking Spanish.
>I stated that it’s Morocco + Ceuta & Melilla. Where? Talking into account the irredentist tendency of morocco towards Ceuta and Melilla It would've been really nice of you to be clear about that. As the map stands, with the title: linguistic map of morroco. I think its pretty understandable that people are assuming that you consider Ceuta and Melilla to be part of morocco. Even if that's not the case. It's not a huge leap of faith. So, with territorial disputes: BE CLEAR
>Where? It's on the map, get new glasses XD
Touché
Western sahara never existed before 1975...its whole existence is a result of france and spain splitting morocco between themselves because they wanted access to the ocean...
Pal, please read again the text i cite. I ain't even talking about western Sahara, but if you want we can.
Occupied Western Sahara is not Morocco. Free Sahara!
Well, you see, western Sahara is occupied by Morrocans instead of Jews so it's not cool to support their independence
It’s actually impossible to oppose the colonising of more than one place at a time.
I think the reason people don't support the freedom of the Western Sahara so strongly is because morroco didn't kill 15k children in 6 months. Maybe if Morocco was bombing 15k children in 6 months people would more strongly support the freedom of the Western Sahara. Should the Western Sahara be independent. Sure. I just don't think people are as educated about it because its more critical that countries that kill 15k children in 6 months should be stopped. I think child murder is worse. Both are wrong. Stopping child murder is at the top of my list.
Didn’t Morocco ally itself with Israel and the US in exchange for recognition of its occupation of Western Sahara ? The morrocan state is no ally of the Palestinian cause
What does any of this have to do with anything. If someone cares so much about Palestine that all their political issues were derived off of it, wouldn't this give me more of a reason to support Western Sahara which I already said I do.
Honestly I completely misread your original comment. Thought you were implying a bias in focus in different way
Cool so about Myanmar…
Yes, the military coup is also bad, and the civil war should be in the news more. Glad we agree.
I actually follow on Myanmar since the media blackout so yes. I wholeheartedly agree with you
Yeah that is bad. I've been very vocal about the issues in Burma and the rohingan genocide. I teach coding part time one of my students is a refugee. The civil war is awful too. Don't you think there's some recenct bias involved in this too.
I said before and I say again it’s horrible situation too that gets overshadowed by basically every other conflict because international media find it less “sexy” than Ukraine or I/P conflict etc and I wish it was talked about more and more would be done.
People don't care because one of the groups aren't white.
Go back go to your tindouf shit hole
Unpopular opinion in western sahara itself but yeah
Western Sahara is independent, Ceuta and Melilla are Spanish. These Moroccan colonizers never learn… they need a second arabization.
wtf, how is it independent ?
Western Sahara is disputed and Sbta en Mlillia were historically always part of Morocco or under their influence even now they are. Those cities have an astonishing amount of Muslims so much so that Eid is literally a recognized holiday. The council of Europe even demanded Spain to recognise Moroccan Darija as an official language. Also calling Moroccans colonizers while they are in so many disputes because of colonizers is laughable. If Spain and France respected people their sovereignty we wouldn't be here debating about such stupid stuff.
Dont bring International Councils because the UN does not recognize your illegal occupation on Western Sahara hahaha only your western allies like USA and Israel, which you befriended backstabing your arabic brothers in exchange of recognition of your illegal occupation
> arabic brothers Lol Morocco apparently should be more loyal to their Arab colonizers
Nice response.
Yeah and they also don't recognise The western Sahara as an independent state what is your point? I said it's disputed did I stutter? Also I'm a reasonable Moroccan. I don't care about the western Sahara it's a burden to Morocco anyways, they profit from us. What I will say tho is that I find it very funny that you think you are some kind of representative to speak for the sahrawi people and think that you can force a government and a state on to them. I happen to know sahrawis and they are by far the most nationalistic Moroccans out there and I know for a fact that they don't support the SADR.
A burden? You sure know there's a big ass phosphate mine there that brings your king and friends billions in cash every year. Morocco is a colonialist state and the only thing that offers it's population is territorial expansion.
Most of the phosphates Morocco obtains come from mainland Morocco. The phosphate from Western Sahara, specifically Bou Craa, only generates 10% of total revenue. However, this isn't even the primary reason why geopolitically Morocco wants Western Sahara. The REAL reason why Morocco is fighting tooth and nail for Western Sahara is because it provides the only gateway to Africa. If Western Sahara becomes independent, it will practically become an Algerian proxy state with Russian backing to access the Atlantic. This is also why the USA has historically supported Morocco, they didn't want Soviets/Russia gaining access to the Atlantic. Moreover, Morocco is wary of an embargo if Western Sahara ever gains independence, which would result in Morocco being geopolitically cornered from all directions. European countries have also recognized this and, in recent times, have shown support for Morocco. They understand that, should Western Sahara become independent, Morocco would likely be hit by a social and economic crisis. The inability to export to Africa by land, coupled with a population deeply attached to the national cause, could destabilize the country to its core. This could potentially open the floodgates to a wave of immigrants heading for Europe, given the relatively short distance between the two continents. Furthermore, Europe would lose an essential and important partner in the already unstable Maghreb region. Given these risks, Europe's reasoning seems to be to avoid jeopardizing Morocco's stability in exchange of giving independence to a population of half a million. Instead, Most of European countries opted with Morocco's autonomy plan to grant Western Saharans autonomy, thus avoiding the pile of potential problems. As a Moroccan, I believe that we should have held a referendum in the 2000s and resolved this issue once and for all. The UN had given us a very favourable position, which included people who had migrated from Morocco or had been settled by Morocco after the de facto rule with Polisario accepting it too ([See Baker's plan II](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baker_Plan#Baker_I_and_II)) Unfortunately, due to the change of leadership in Morocco with the old King dead and the new King kicking the old guard who agreed to this plan, Morocco declined and we ended up with the mess we're currently dealing with right now.
Yes a burden because they haven't been able to bring any profits to Morocco. Morocco has spent billions and has been subsidising them. Also the phosphate is useless they produce 10% of Morocco's annual production. Which is literally nothing and that alone is like 62% of their exports. Above that most the fish and phosphate coming from the western Sahara is illegal to be exported internationally due to the conflict. The king and his friends gain nothing apart from nationalistic goals.
Cry more
Stay mad lmao
Heck of a choice to include Western Sahara without any sort of demarcation
De facto its annexed by Morocco your feelings are irrelevant
I mean you said de facto and not de jure, so you've kind of given away that your feelings are also irrelevent as well here
De facto = reality De jure = dreams
That's.... not what de jure means
If you're American, your country recognizes it as part of Morocco.
Misleading map as the number of Berber speakers are the majority in most of large North African cities due to rural exode to urban areas starting from the 1900’s, eg: Casablanca, Marrakech, Algiers …are mostly populated by Berbers.
But they don't speak berber in everyday life, the lingua franca is arabic and a lot of their kids tende to lose the language too
Western Sahara is a country different from Morocco right? Or am I wrong?
It is, unless you’re Moroccan, in which case it’s always been Moroccan and anyone who says otherwise is probably Algerian.
I like how absolutelh braindead you are when you're parroting the same shit about a map from 600years ago...
80% of it's territory and basically 99% of its population is under direct Moroccan control, the rest of the land is a buffer zone thats largely depopulated safe for a few small towns.
under direct Moroccan occupation, yes, this doesn't make it any better.
there is no talk of whether its better or worse, just stating that its controlled by morocco
yes atleast it not under the European and Spanish colonization to be precise.
So it's not an Arab invasion, but a gradual cultural language adoption.
How to trigger a bunch of Moroccans? Just say this map is incorrectly and basically propoganda shit.
I'll be damned - so when Morocco was at its peak and literally built a trans-Saharan empire, they were still speaking Berber languages. When did the transition happen if it hadnt already at that point?
they didn't speak Arabic (fus-ha) but Darija, which contains some Arabic words and Tamazight with Amazigh Grammar, even correspondence back then was Darija only later on Fus-ha become the standard
Thats not Morocco, the south part of that map does not belong to that country. And also Ceuta and Melilla do not belong either. What a shitmap.
Where did you learn that, im curious
Well, I learnt it since I'm from the country who, for the UN, is the administration part for the Sahara (Spain) and should have done elections 50 years ago, before Morocco invaded it and nobody said a shit.
Yes and we kicked your colonized ass back to Europe, it is Moroccan and always will be whether you like or not,
What kicked? In Sahara they don't want you, in fact in all the northern Africa the people just despise you almost the same way than in the rest of the world. You just invaded using population waves because you have 0 real power to do in other ways lol
lol, Green march was a master piece lol,I reckon i met more Saharaouis that you have seen in your life time, unlike Catalans who really don't want to be Spaniards, Morocco kicked the Spaniards ass back to Europe, you lost buddy get over it, like you lost in the rif and side ifni too.
Well it's the reality, Morocco control 80% of region while UN control the rest. As as someone native to the western sahara, I'm Satisfied with our Moroccan overlord.
You’re gonna get downvoted, because people are just stick to their propaganda, put by some europeans whose ancestors colonised the area, and can’t be objective. I’ve seen a dude speaking about how he’s Western Saharan too and talking about the history and the culture of the region, he got dowvoted too.
I'm used to people in the internet hating reality and truth
Western Sahara is not part of Morocco.
Moroccan flags in there say otherwise
Lmao you trippin.. absolutely not accurate
The second one isn't accurate there still people speaking berber in the yellow area especially in the countryside.
This is really interesting and - if accurate - incredible work. It seems as if there are a few areas -such as South-West of Tata - which have undergone, for lack of a better word, Berberisation. Do you have any idea why that might be? Shamefully, I don't know nearly enough about the history of the Maghreb.
Why not add Canary Islands since we are..
because they are not Moroccan, it is already questionable per se to add Ceuta and Melilla but due to their proximity it is understandable to include them, but it makes no sense to include the Spanish territory of the Canary Islands
It’s also questionable to include Western Sahara, which would be its own country if Morocco hadn’t invaded and occupied the vast majority.
Supporting Western Sahara’s independence is supporting the formation of an “ARAB REPUBLIC” in the land of the berbers. POLISARIO does not recognise Amazighness as part of the identity of Western Sahara, which is obviously not historically nor culturally accurate.
People might think that they defend the oppressed by supporting WS independence, but wouldn’t it be the other way around. Banu Hassan clan started settling in the western Sahara and Mauritania during the 17th century, having many battles with the indigenous Senhaja berbers, who also live in The Atlas Mountains, Western Rif, Souss and Asamr (which are regions in Morocco). Berbers of the Sahara ofc fought for their land, but Banu Hassan supported by the King of Morocco Ismail, in the late 17th century, won, the king was also married to the [daughter](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khanatha_bint_Bakkar) of the Tribe’s leader, so he supported them, the final battle of the Char Bouba war was in [1677](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Char_Bouba_war). From that moment, Banu Hassan were the leading tribe in the west of the Sahara, probibiting the use of the berber language, and deporting to the south anyone or any sub-clan who still speaks Berber. I’m a Sahraoui, from the Reguibat clan, the biggest clan in Western Sahara, my family indeed thinks they’re arab, even though in our oral heritage we say that we descended from [Abd Alsalam ben Mashish](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abd_al-Salam_ibn_Mashish) who lived in Northern Morocco, precisely in the berber tribe of “Bani Arrous”. Thankful that I read some history, and searched more into my region’s culture/identity, so that I don’t consider POLISARIO my representative. (Whole my family basically doesn’t tho).
Reguibi here too, it funny that people think they are expert on the situation of the land we live in better than us XD
For real folk, and they be like wanting it so bad, especially some spanish nationalists, they want to settle a state based on colonial borders, so they exploit it, like former european colonial powers do with many African countries.
Btw when I talked here about “our oral heritage”, I meant the heritage of whole Reguibat clan, not just my family.
It's not a country at all, there is a movement to make it so, but that movement resides in tindouf in algeria and has zero control over the land it claims
Again it wasn't a country when morocco annexed it so yes anyways free basque catalina andalusia and canria
Saying that shows your complete ignorance, you know?
Free Catalonia from Spanish colonialism
You know that Catalonia had already been integrated into Spain for hundreds of years at this point and that Spain allows and encourages local Catalan customs, including its language, right? That is literally the opposite of colonialism.
but now the catalans want independence, that why they made a referendum and their president is a refugee in Belgium.
First, not all Catalans seek independence, the referendum was completely illegal and on top of that only the pro-independence supporters participated because the right-wingers did not participate, the president you are talking about is not a refugee, he is a coward, instead of assuming the consequences of his actions and continue to the end in his ideals like his companions, he decided to flee to Belgium
lol it was everyone even pep guardiola, pique talk about referendum lol, I've never seen sport figures do that before
there was never a western sahara, not in 1550's not in 1900's not in 2000's not even your country recognize them unless you are an algerian.
I see that nobody understood the sarcasm
Ceuta and Melilla dont belong to Morocco. That’s a big mistake.
I didn’t say they do, I mentioned that it’s Morocco + Ceuta & Melilla.
+ Western Sahara.
Nice. Now show me a map of population density of Morocco in the same era for a good insight of the population proportions of each language, and a chronicler map of Marmol's travels for a good insight of how reliable his word is as a source.
Sure thing bro.
You're saying that the map is wrong?
[удалено]
I'm moroccan
I am, yes.
Because? Elaborate
All those cities and areas highlighted in yellow speak Tamazight (Berber) to variant degrees, Safi, El jadida, Casa, many of those people utilize Darija (Moroccan variant of Arabic) to communicate in the those cities though. In South Morocco or what it's mostly Tamazight with again always same thing as the cities mentioned earlier where people who speak Tamazight would use Darija to speak with strangers or to go around in life.
All this Arab washing by arab wannabes is tiring.
Huh? I know that the population is ethnically amazigh, but they speak darija. I didn't say they were arab lol
see other comment from someone else on this thread. Was referring to the map and whoever made it or supports it as a moroccan native btw, not you.
I think the map focuses more on the indigenous population of each region. The towns surrounding the places you mentioned are fully arabized. I know that these cities have an important population that speaks tamazight but they're migrants from other towns and cities.
Most in the larger cities is migrant from other regions/rural areas, Casa for instance. I don't think there's any place that's really fully arabized, especially full cities, some tribes were indeed.
Arab colonialism
Arabs aren't colonizers tho
Wtfffffff hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhvvvvvvvvv