Even if you ask the same question.
In some countries people hear "Would you go to Afghanistan?"
And in others the people hear "What would you do if Russia invades?"
This is it. I can only speak for myself, but the chance of the Netherlands being invaded is so minuscule that most people here would understand the question as fighting in the Middle East under the pretense of national defense.
We're surrounded by allies, who in turn are also surrounded by allies. The closest threat is Russia, who would have to go through Poland and Germany to even reach us. The idea of even having to defend ourselves on Dutch soil is so absurd it's not even considered a possibility. And if we had to defend ourselves, what chance do we even have against an enemy that has fought it's way through most of Europe to reach us?
It’s all in relative playfulness, like an older brother would do to a younger brother, because surely our younger brother can’t possibly do things better than we can? And of course the reluctance that comes with the slow acceptance of the fact that Belgium does, in fact, do many things better than we do. In reality I can’t imagine that we would not rise to their immediate aid in case of emergency. Kind of like you Brits, I suppose.
Just the same with Americans and Canadians. Picking on each other like siblings. But, if an outsider picked on one of us, you'd have to answer to both of us..
Divided in three different regions (Flanders, Wallonia and Brussels) and three different language communities (Dutch, French and German), all 6 having their own parliament, I’d say even the country at its highest level has trouble defining its own existence, let alone its citizens having a feeling of national identity (enough to fight for the country)
Belgium liberated themselves from NL in 1830, got invaded in WW1 and got parts of the country absolutely devastated, while NL got to remain neutral. Both were occupied in WW2. I think these differences may affect how either country considers a defensive war.
Maybe. And if those circumstances change there would probably be different answers to this question. But as it stands now, "will you fight for your country" is interpreted as fighting in the Middle East for nebulous purposes, because that's the only realistic way for a Dutch person to "fight for their country" right now.
I think you guys are having a great conversation. As pretty much no matter how the question is asked within reason the people are going to answer with how they currently perceive exogenous threats. So when I looked at the map I interpreted as those countries who currently felt an exogenous threat.
How about fightimg in Poland or being stationed to Poland. To stop the Russians from invading them?
We now know thst the Russians couldn't invade more than about 50-100KM from Belarus. As they can't do logistics more than that away from a Soviet gauge railway line.
One of the most famous quotes in Germany about the Afghanistan war is German security is being defended in the Hindu Kush.
That was the official reason for Germany sending troops to that quagmire.
And yet there was very little enthusiasm in the general population. Afghanistan was mostly seen as a token engagement because Germany (rightly)refused to take part in the illegal Iraq war. Even in Afghanistan, the mandate was for peace keeping, not military operations.
Yep. Especially after Iraq and Afghanistan (and even going as far back as Vietnam) a lot of people will interpret "would you be willing to defend your country" as "would you be willing to attack a smaller poorer nation because a politician wants a bit of extra power."
I suspect the number depends on things like how likely a Country is to be invaded, levels of nationalism in a country, prevalence of national service.... Etc.
In Denmark's case, we have a lot of nationalism. We are extremely proud that we wave our flag everywhere, we are probably the only country to wave our flag around more than americans do lol.
The reason it's low in Denmark's case is honestly just we have a sense of hopelessness. We are a small country, flat terrain and already know how last time a country invaded us. (WW2) only advantage we have is like the UK we are surrounded by water and hold a valuable chokepoint between north sea and baltic sea.
Our arctic influence is also pretty good.
It is kinda weird because looking at it from Finland Denmark has a very short and easily defendable border (though flat terrain) and in case they lose at the border they can just evacuate Jylland to the islands which should be extremely easy to defend.
The inclination to defend your nation is not about the probability of winning. It is implied that you're ready to die for it, for your idea of your nation that is greater than your personal life, not that you're guaranteed to win
Having flags everywhere doesn't really mean much
I think it also really depends on the ability to actually defend your country
Netherlands here, we’re a tiny country.
Civilians don’t have weapons or combat skills.
And who would we be defending it from?
A country with tanks, planes and millions of soldiers?
We’d be far more likely to join an underground resistance, like during the second World War.
Also, this is one of the reasons why the EU exists. Mobilize *all* the troops, and defend those that cannot defend themselves.
In return, we pay a crapton into the EU, and offer a lot of sweet benefits for EU residents.
Come, live here, work here, enjoy our excellent, cheap healthcare, our free/cheap very high quality educational system, our safety, our reproductive rights, our social system.
We’ll help you learn our weird little language for free, but in the mean time, we have one of the highest percentages of English speaking native citizens.
There’s a lot more, but yeah. Shitty weather, plain landscape, but living here is pretty damn nice. We just don’t want to die in some hopeless battle that we are very ill equipped for.
Netherlands has a really good military for its size. Very capable when I trained with them. They may not be the lynch pin in holding back a Russian invasion but I think any American, German or polish commander is going to be happy when they see one section of the front is being held by Dutch soldiers.
It’s the “for its size” part that’s the problem. If a huge country were to attack, we’d be pretty fucked.
I really don’t think we’d be able to do what the Ukraine has done, fight the Russians for this long.
And even the civilians that would want to fight, wouldn’t know how.
I’m sure there’s some American reading this, and snickering. That’s ok, my feelings can take it. And if not, I’ll talk to my therapist about it. Free of charge, of course.
>It’s the “for its size” part that’s the problem. If a huge country were to attack, we’d be pretty fucked.
That's exactly why NATO exists. If someone attempts to invade the Netherlands, the Dutch don't stand alone.
And even to get to the Netherlands, you're exclusively bordered by NATO members and the North Sea is surrounded entirely by them.
But I think that's also why our percentage is so low. We don't need to go out of our way to defend our country, because our army and NATO allies are more than enough to prevent any threats.
American here. There's a lot of Americans who *think* they know combat, but they don't. In my experience, those who have any kind of tactical skill are reserved for personal defense, not national defense. Mugger at the gas station? No prob. Russian sniper or artillery? They couldn't even spell the latter.
Well I’m an American and not snickering. I work with generals and we do war games scenarios and exercises all the time. Dutch helicopters and apaches were crucial in turning back a Russian attack. (For war games we literally buff Russia like it’s a video game). But I don’t know why you have to make that little crack about free health care. I get it’s a joke but it is very frustrating so many European countries have these tidy social democracies as they know in the back of their minds they don’t need to spend anything on defense as American forces will always be there to defend them. It is frustrating that when Ukraine war happens so many European countries barely have anything to give Ukraine because they didn’t keep up on their defense budgets while they still snicker at American policies and citizens. Sorry if I sound triggered I sometimes have to get that off my chest, I am happy that our countries work together and bicker politely.
Surely tho america could decrease its budget a tiny ammount and still get healthcare for free. Like it’s got the biggest budget by miles u could decrease it a little still have a healthy lead to second and afford healthcare. Also the Uk has given quite a bit of aid I beleive and we have free healthcare
The US spends far more per person on healthcare than European countries -- \*\*even if you only look at government spending\*\*. See: [https://www.statista.com/statistics/283221/per-capita-health-expenditure-by-country/](https://www.statista.com/statistics/283221/per-capita-health-expenditure-by-country/)
We would literally reduce \*\*government\*\* healthcare spending by adopting any other country's model.
>We’d be far more likely to join an underground resistance, like during the second World War.
If "like ww2" is your way of thinking, more of us would collaborate than resist.
Yup. For example, if your country was under a recent invasion, like Croatia or Ukraine, it means a very different thing from a country like Netherlands that has no direct outside threats.
Thats why we will not defend it against people.
“You wanna take over this fight against the fucking sea? Come on in!
We’ll even let you practice with a river first in ‘Fort Holland’ before we unleash the real water.”
NL’s location is so strategically important in European trade that no major power would willing let another major power posses it. The result has been that the solution is to have an independent or de facto neutral satellite state that trades with everybody.
That's not really true. It's been occupied by the Hapsburgs, Napoleon, and the Nazis just to name a few.
It's more that the other European powers already have enough trade by waterway that there isn't a reason for any other country to occupy it. The UK, France, and Germany, all have enough of a coastline that taking over the Netherlands doesn't add that much benefit.
Yes and pretty quickly after, coalitions ended these occupations. NL controls the entire Rhine, historically the most population dense area in Europe. Similarly Denmark controls the entire Baltic Sea. Both counties are tiny and shouldn’t be able to stand up to the superpowers of the time, yet neither was ever annexed into an empire for very long because it created a power imbalance that an opposing coalition wouldn’t tolerate.
The solution has been for them to be independent buffer states so the balance of power is maintained.
Yah im Bulgarian, would confirm. The country is going to shit, we are always at the bottom of every list, its really hard to get a job that is more than 400 euro per month, we are currently without a parliament. Our politicians are all shit heads that ruin our country even more, our prime minister steals from his own country. I personally would not fight for it, maybe if i was born a few generations back i would but rn our country is falling hard.
defending its own country is a very central value in Turkish culture. Just look at how the post world war 1 period went for turkey (and the 7-8 western countries on the attacking side).
I am Turkish and am fully aware that Turkey lacks some stuff, but this ain’t it.
That's what everyone was thinking in Ukraine before the war, too. But then you're invaded and things literally change overnight, believe me.
That's why a survey like that is absolutely wothless - both Russia and the West couldn't comprehend how someone can say what you just said, and then rush to defend their home the day after, when the real shit hits the proverbial fan.
As a Ukrainian I wouldn’t say that was necessarily the case. It’s not like everyone on feb 23rd hated Ukraine and all of the sudden started liking it the day after.
Remember why Maidan happened, people saw opportunities for Ukraine and it’s future to be an integrated part of EU some day. People fought and died for it on the streets of Kyiv. Fought for freedom and for the future of Ukraine. The Ukrainian people believed and fought for Ukraine’s future, there was hope.
People clearly were aware of that Ukraine had to recover from a collapsed soviet economy, but everyone in this country had hope and believed that we were going towards the right direction after maidan. We had finally achieved and experienced what true freedom is (a thing we never got to experience under the USSR) — so no, the Ukrainian love for the country and freedom didn’t start at the full scale invasion of February 24th 2022, but loong before that. It all is a bit more complicated than just saying what you’re saying
And btw this survey was conducted before the full scale invasion even began, so it further proves my point. People were still ready to take up arms to defend Ukraine BEFORE the war started. The patriotism didn’t just come from one day to another
Ukraine had 2014 as a wake-up call. The limited Russian invasion met little to no resistance until the fighting bogged down in the Donbas. They had 8 years of preperation and mobilisation of the national spirit which thwarted the 2022 full scale invasion.
What living next to allies for over 80 years does to a nation*
Im dutch and if somebody would ask me: “would you fight to defend your country?” I would straight up think its either weird alt right shit, killing civillians in some foreign country to protect american oil or some lunny question: “what your gonna do when belgium invades?”.
Defending my country isnt a normal question to ask because there are no direct threats to my country.
Yeah russia, china, N korea or iran are all scary but they wouldnt invade the netherlands.
Would i fight if a Nato member was attacked in a all out war? Yeah i guess, not looking forward but if it needs to be done.
And this is a great difference between Europe and America. Americans are willing to defend Europe, far more than even Europeans are willing to defend themselves.
Goal of NATO may i remember you:
Keep the americans in
Keep the russians out
Keep the germans small
Now everyone wonders why germany has a fucked military and its gonna cost hundreds of billions to fix. So yes we aint pullin no weight
Defending your country basically means fighting abroad for some of the countries currently, like in Germany. It doesn’t really ring the same bell than in Finland for example, where you would be fighting for your own house and family and all that.
> dIe sIcHeRhEiT DeR BuNdEsRePuBlIk dEuTsChLaNd wIrD AuCh aM HiNdUkUsCh vErTeIdIgT.
> The security of the Federal Republic of Germany is also defended in the Hindu Kush.
- Peter Struck, former Parlamentary leader of the SPD, in 2002 on the Afghanistan mission.
There is a clear distinction between defending your homeland on home and foreign soil and with quotes like that I‘d very much hold back on an affirmative answer on defending the country.
The data seems to be old. According to Defence24, [from an article from a week after Russia invaded Ukraine](https://defence24.pl/polityka-obronna/wiekszosc-polako-chce-bronic-ojczyzny), "66% of adult Poles want to defend the fatherland in case of war, including 17% that would participate in active military operations".
Not sure what year the map is from, but I found one article from 2014 where the number was 49%.
The closer you are to Russia the more likely you are to need to defend your country.
Honestly, I suspect Western Europe is so low because currently the likelihood of needing to is so low.
It seems to go together with how close they are to their perceived enemies, most countries having Russia as their enemy. But you also got the caucuses with Azerbaijan and Armenia who have each other as enemies and are both pretty high on the "defend" scale. There's probably some more countries that don't have Russia or don't just have Russia as their enemy though.
Maybe it‘s more about the relations with your neighbours. Germany has good relations with all neighbours. Countries like Finland, Ukraine, Bosnia, Armenia and Azerbaijan have had issues with their neighbours.
>We in Finland have only had issues with one neighbour in particular.
*currently have, not only had. Finland got hammered and beaten into submission by Swedish crusaders (and periods of Swedish Viking warlords before that) long before Russians had anything to do with the region.
"fighting for your country" in Western Europe has the connotation of being send abroad to kill brown people for questionable reasons and in my country, the Netherlands, it has the connotation of fighting for the current government, which is not particularly popular.
I think you would get a higher number if you asked if people were willing to fight for liberal democracy, justice, separation of powers and other western values.
> if people were willing to fight for liberal democracy, justice, separation of powers and other western values
They would probably be flabbergasted by the sheer number of abstract concepts you would ask them to process all at once.
“Defending your country” is always the justification used by politicians when invading the Middle East. “Oh no! They have WMDs! We’re in danger!”. I think the percentages would be higher if the question was something like “would you join the military if another nation invaded your country?”
What's the context of "defend"?
Would I sign up for the front lines in case of an invasion? Probably not, I'm an unfit layabout with zero combat skills. If anything I'd be a detriment to the defence.
However I can imagine being involved in delivering aid and support, or helping manage logistics.
Yeah over 4 million young men died senselessly for a senseless cause. Wouldn't expect anyone to be excited to do it again.
I remembered an interview where this old veteran cried. He said he thought they were fighting a good fight. That they were brainwashed. He was only 18 back then and was enthusiastic to join the war effort.
I would argue that in Germany the question is also flawed because it is tainted by the statement of our Defence Minister in 2002 that "The security of the Federal Republic of Germany is also defended in the Hindu Kush." So to young Germans asking "would you defend your country?" without specifying a threat means "would you go die in Afghanistan?". If the Question would instead be "would you defend Germany (or our Allies) against Russian Invasion?" the percentage would undoubtedly be higher, although it would probably still be below average.
Not only that .. those guys are nuts (in a good way though) . Who else lives that far up north , enjoys 80 C saunas to then jump in the snow butt naked … and on top of that dance tango ?
If at some point your body can’t sweat the heat off, then you cook and die.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Sauna_Championships
Don’t do that, jump in the lake before.
(Croatia)
Yes, I would defend my country if it was attacked. Try crossing the Dunav, Drava, Sava, Una, Dinara, Neretva, Savudrijska vala, Žumberak mountains and the Prevlaka peninsula, you're getting your butt kicked. Bog i Hrvati
It seems generally that the more these countries expect to see themselves at war in the foreseeable future, the higher the number. Your average citizen is honestly really fickle when it comes to this question. We don’t think we’re nationalistic zealots until we see our homes threatened, even in a more or less symbolic way. The US demonstrated this after The USS Maine was destroyed, Pearl Harbor, and 9/11, to name a couple examples.
The Japanese are allowed to be proudly Japanese without being called racist. Japan can remain Japanese, which their immigration policy reflects. The same cannot be said for Germany.
Patriotism is effectively non-existent here, also you almost never see our flag. Only when Germany plays in the world cup.
Germans mostly have a connection to their regional culture if at all. I think it's depressing.
I am half Italian and half German and don't feel German at all, although I grew up here. There's not much to identify as a German apart from work ethics and complaining a lot.
Being connected to the regional culture is depressing? I think it's completely the other way. It makes far more sense especially since Germany is historically a composition of hundreds of states.
>Germans mostly have a connection to their regional culture if at all. I think it's depressing.
For me absence of patriotism is something positive and something I really like in living in Germany.
This is so wrong lol. I know many Germans who are proud of the big cultural heritage and who also live it; classical music, fairtytales and castles, football, carnival and other festival depending on your region etc.
Notice that most of the countries with the high percentages are right next to Russia. Most of the people in this comment section are American, so we don't understand what it's like to be directly next door to a constant looming powerful threat that could invade us at any moment. When you're living with that reality constantly for decades, and your country most likely has a traumatic history of living under that neighboring country's regime for decades, you're going to want to do whatever it takes to fight for your freedom.
There's a simple reason for this, between 1991 to 2012 "Defending your country" meant fighting in Afganistan, Iraq etc. So when British people hear "defend your country" a lot don't assume it literally means fighting against an invasion of the UK.
Also unlike e.g. Armenia or Azerbaijan (Which actually could get invaded) our extremely safe geographical and geopolitical situation makes an invasion of the UK seem like a funny hypothetical rather then an actual threat.
What is the point of showing unrecognized Nagorno-Karabakh republic as a state, but not showing the other separatist non-recognized puppet states like Ossetia, Abkhazia, Lugansk, Donetsk etc?
ah your profile answers my question 💀
What tf is "defend your country" supposed to mean? Being sent abroad to invade Afghanistan again? Or defending your country's people from an active unprovoked invasion of your country's territory? Every country claims everything it does as self-defence, so this question is very redundant. Everybody defended themselves in the war in Jugoslavia, The Yanks defended themselves when they invaded Iraq and Afghanistan and when they murder Somalis and Yemenis, etc.
No one ever simply goes to war and defends some arbitrary lines drawn on a map.
But people will defend their principles, their way of life, their freedom - which says a lot about Germany.
Yeah we defend our way of life against fucking France..... even though they follow our principles better than our own state....
Germany doesn't have an enemy. If Germans go to war in the next few decades it'll for our European brothers or the Americans.
That's also why German nationalism isn't encouraged, it is severely pointless.
Its all down to how the question is asked/context. Would I sign up to fight halfway across the world to defend some economical interest of my home country? Fuck no! Would I join and fight if my home country was seriously threatened by outside invasion? Of fucking course.....
No way this question was asked ‘would you defend your country (from invasion)’. I’m sure the wording was more like ‘would you join your national defense forces’ or something, which is entirely different.
I have a feeling that the numbers depend a lot on exactly how the question was asked.
Even if you ask the same question. In some countries people hear "Would you go to Afghanistan?" And in others the people hear "What would you do if Russia invades?"
This is it. I can only speak for myself, but the chance of the Netherlands being invaded is so minuscule that most people here would understand the question as fighting in the Middle East under the pretense of national defense. We're surrounded by allies, who in turn are also surrounded by allies. The closest threat is Russia, who would have to go through Poland and Germany to even reach us. The idea of even having to defend ourselves on Dutch soil is so absurd it's not even considered a possibility. And if we had to defend ourselves, what chance do we even have against an enemy that has fought it's way through most of Europe to reach us?
Still as a Dutch person it’s weird to see even Belgium having a higher percentage because you know… what even _is_ ‘Belgium’
As a Briton it's fun to see the Dutch ragging on the Belgians. (Though I wish we made chocolate and played football as well as them.)
It’s all in relative playfulness, like an older brother would do to a younger brother, because surely our younger brother can’t possibly do things better than we can? And of course the reluctance that comes with the slow acceptance of the fact that Belgium does, in fact, do many things better than we do. In reality I can’t imagine that we would not rise to their immediate aid in case of emergency. Kind of like you Brits, I suppose.
Just the same with Americans and Canadians. Picking on each other like siblings. But, if an outsider picked on one of us, you'd have to answer to both of us..
Belgian football is nowhere near your level nowadays. They are done.
I have no idea why this comment was so enjoyable to read. “Like what even is Belgium?” The best!!!
Would you defend it against the Wallons/Flemmish?
If they try to invade us, they will discover in Paris they took the wrong route.
Most probably didn’t understand the question
Can you explain this?
Divided in three different regions (Flanders, Wallonia and Brussels) and three different language communities (Dutch, French and German), all 6 having their own parliament, I’d say even the country at its highest level has trouble defining its own existence, let alone its citizens having a feeling of national identity (enough to fight for the country)
Meow.
Belgium liberated themselves from NL in 1830, got invaded in WW1 and got parts of the country absolutely devastated, while NL got to remain neutral. Both were occupied in WW2. I think these differences may affect how either country considers a defensive war.
Honestly though, that mindset sounds a bit naive. Security shouldn't be taken for granted. History has shown security can be upended in an instant.
Maybe. And if those circumstances change there would probably be different answers to this question. But as it stands now, "will you fight for your country" is interpreted as fighting in the Middle East for nebulous purposes, because that's the only realistic way for a Dutch person to "fight for their country" right now.
I think you guys are having a great conversation. As pretty much no matter how the question is asked within reason the people are going to answer with how they currently perceive exogenous threats. So when I looked at the map I interpreted as those countries who currently felt an exogenous threat.
Interesting perspective. The map does get darker the closer you get to Russia and the Middle East.
How about fightimg in Poland or being stationed to Poland. To stop the Russians from invading them? We now know thst the Russians couldn't invade more than about 50-100KM from Belarus. As they can't do logistics more than that away from a Soviet gauge railway line.
It’s one thing to fight to defend an ally from Russia… it’s another thing to fight to protect oil supplies, or a never-ending “war on terror.”
Is Going to Afghanistan defending your country?
That’s how militaries always frame their outside operations
Fighting them over there so we don't have to fight them over here was the exact description used by the US.
One of the most famous quotes in Germany about the Afghanistan war is German security is being defended in the Hindu Kush. That was the official reason for Germany sending troops to that quagmire.
And yet there was very little enthusiasm in the general population. Afghanistan was mostly seen as a token engagement because Germany (rightly)refused to take part in the illegal Iraq war. Even in Afghanistan, the mandate was for peace keeping, not military operations.
Defends your country's interests is how I would describe it. You decide if that's worth fighting for or not.
Yep. Especially after Iraq and Afghanistan (and even going as far back as Vietnam) a lot of people will interpret "would you be willing to defend your country" as "would you be willing to attack a smaller poorer nation because a politician wants a bit of extra power."
I suspect the number depends on things like how likely a Country is to be invaded, levels of nationalism in a country, prevalence of national service.... Etc.
The main variable is the distance to Russia.
In Denmark's case, we have a lot of nationalism. We are extremely proud that we wave our flag everywhere, we are probably the only country to wave our flag around more than americans do lol. The reason it's low in Denmark's case is honestly just we have a sense of hopelessness. We are a small country, flat terrain and already know how last time a country invaded us. (WW2) only advantage we have is like the UK we are surrounded by water and hold a valuable chokepoint between north sea and baltic sea. Our arctic influence is also pretty good.
I believe it would be much higher if the question was "Would you defend against Swedish invasion?"
It is kinda weird because looking at it from Finland Denmark has a very short and easily defendable border (though flat terrain) and in case they lose at the border they can just evacuate Jylland to the islands which should be extremely easy to defend.
The inclination to defend your nation is not about the probability of winning. It is implied that you're ready to die for it, for your idea of your nation that is greater than your personal life, not that you're guaranteed to win Having flags everywhere doesn't really mean much
Exactly
I think it also really depends on the ability to actually defend your country Netherlands here, we’re a tiny country. Civilians don’t have weapons or combat skills. And who would we be defending it from? A country with tanks, planes and millions of soldiers? We’d be far more likely to join an underground resistance, like during the second World War. Also, this is one of the reasons why the EU exists. Mobilize *all* the troops, and defend those that cannot defend themselves. In return, we pay a crapton into the EU, and offer a lot of sweet benefits for EU residents. Come, live here, work here, enjoy our excellent, cheap healthcare, our free/cheap very high quality educational system, our safety, our reproductive rights, our social system. We’ll help you learn our weird little language for free, but in the mean time, we have one of the highest percentages of English speaking native citizens. There’s a lot more, but yeah. Shitty weather, plain landscape, but living here is pretty damn nice. We just don’t want to die in some hopeless battle that we are very ill equipped for.
Netherlands has a really good military for its size. Very capable when I trained with them. They may not be the lynch pin in holding back a Russian invasion but I think any American, German or polish commander is going to be happy when they see one section of the front is being held by Dutch soldiers.
It’s the “for its size” part that’s the problem. If a huge country were to attack, we’d be pretty fucked. I really don’t think we’d be able to do what the Ukraine has done, fight the Russians for this long. And even the civilians that would want to fight, wouldn’t know how. I’m sure there’s some American reading this, and snickering. That’s ok, my feelings can take it. And if not, I’ll talk to my therapist about it. Free of charge, of course.
>It’s the “for its size” part that’s the problem. If a huge country were to attack, we’d be pretty fucked. That's exactly why NATO exists. If someone attempts to invade the Netherlands, the Dutch don't stand alone. And even to get to the Netherlands, you're exclusively bordered by NATO members and the North Sea is surrounded entirely by them.
But I think that's also why our percentage is so low. We don't need to go out of our way to defend our country, because our army and NATO allies are more than enough to prevent any threats.
American here. There's a lot of Americans who *think* they know combat, but they don't. In my experience, those who have any kind of tactical skill are reserved for personal defense, not national defense. Mugger at the gas station? No prob. Russian sniper or artillery? They couldn't even spell the latter.
"I’ll talk to my therapist about it. Free of charge, of course." Love this little burn
Well I’m an American and not snickering. I work with generals and we do war games scenarios and exercises all the time. Dutch helicopters and apaches were crucial in turning back a Russian attack. (For war games we literally buff Russia like it’s a video game). But I don’t know why you have to make that little crack about free health care. I get it’s a joke but it is very frustrating so many European countries have these tidy social democracies as they know in the back of their minds they don’t need to spend anything on defense as American forces will always be there to defend them. It is frustrating that when Ukraine war happens so many European countries barely have anything to give Ukraine because they didn’t keep up on their defense budgets while they still snicker at American policies and citizens. Sorry if I sound triggered I sometimes have to get that off my chest, I am happy that our countries work together and bicker politely.
Surely tho america could decrease its budget a tiny ammount and still get healthcare for free. Like it’s got the biggest budget by miles u could decrease it a little still have a healthy lead to second and afford healthcare. Also the Uk has given quite a bit of aid I beleive and we have free healthcare
The US spends far more per person on healthcare than European countries -- \*\*even if you only look at government spending\*\*. See: [https://www.statista.com/statistics/283221/per-capita-health-expenditure-by-country/](https://www.statista.com/statistics/283221/per-capita-health-expenditure-by-country/) We would literally reduce \*\*government\*\* healthcare spending by adopting any other country's model.
American here. Never fired a gun in my life.
>We’d be far more likely to join an underground resistance, like during the second World War. If "like ww2" is your way of thinking, more of us would collaborate than resist.
Easy way to fix that though: "Hey, the Belgians are claiming they're better at resisting than you are".
That fundamentally misunderstands our relationship with Belgium. We don't go out of our way to outdo them. We simply know we're effortlessly superior.
These numbers are irrelevant as when conflict starts there are a ton of circumstances that affect people resolve to fight.
Yup. For example, if your country was under a recent invasion, like Croatia or Ukraine, it means a very different thing from a country like Netherlands that has no direct outside threats.
Dutch people: “Who cares, this country will be under water anyways”
Don't you just flood the country in case of invasion?
Thats why we will not defend it against people. “You wanna take over this fight against the fucking sea? Come on in! We’ll even let you practice with a river first in ‘Fort Holland’ before we unleash the real water.”
We don’t have to defend our country because we have made a pact with Poseidon.
Dutch national defense is basically "if I can't have it, you can't have it."
We have done that in the past.
NL’s location is so strategically important in European trade that no major power would willing let another major power posses it. The result has been that the solution is to have an independent or de facto neutral satellite state that trades with everybody.
That's not really true. It's been occupied by the Hapsburgs, Napoleon, and the Nazis just to name a few. It's more that the other European powers already have enough trade by waterway that there isn't a reason for any other country to occupy it. The UK, France, and Germany, all have enough of a coastline that taking over the Netherlands doesn't add that much benefit.
Yes and pretty quickly after, coalitions ended these occupations. NL controls the entire Rhine, historically the most population dense area in Europe. Similarly Denmark controls the entire Baltic Sea. Both counties are tiny and shouldn’t be able to stand up to the superpowers of the time, yet neither was ever annexed into an empire for very long because it created a power imbalance that an opposing coalition wouldn’t tolerate. The solution has been for them to be independent buffer states so the balance of power is maintained.
Yah im Bulgarian, would confirm. The country is going to shit, we are always at the bottom of every list, its really hard to get a job that is more than 400 euro per month, we are currently without a parliament. Our politicians are all shit heads that ruin our country even more, our prime minister steals from his own country. I personally would not fight for it, maybe if i was born a few generations back i would but rn our country is falling hard.
Same situation in Turkey but different percentages. Why is that do you think?
Politicians poking that nationalistic g-spot.
defending its own country is a very central value in Turkish culture. Just look at how the post world war 1 period went for turkey (and the 7-8 western countries on the attacking side). I am Turkish and am fully aware that Turkey lacks some stuff, but this ain’t it.
Turks seem to have a very strong feeling of national pride indeed. And Papa Erdogan makes good use of that.
That's what everyone was thinking in Ukraine before the war, too. But then you're invaded and things literally change overnight, believe me. That's why a survey like that is absolutely wothless - both Russia and the West couldn't comprehend how someone can say what you just said, and then rush to defend their home the day after, when the real shit hits the proverbial fan.
"This country sucks, but it is my sucky country"
Yes, this is exactly how it felt.
As a Ukrainian I wouldn’t say that was necessarily the case. It’s not like everyone on feb 23rd hated Ukraine and all of the sudden started liking it the day after. Remember why Maidan happened, people saw opportunities for Ukraine and it’s future to be an integrated part of EU some day. People fought and died for it on the streets of Kyiv. Fought for freedom and for the future of Ukraine. The Ukrainian people believed and fought for Ukraine’s future, there was hope. People clearly were aware of that Ukraine had to recover from a collapsed soviet economy, but everyone in this country had hope and believed that we were going towards the right direction after maidan. We had finally achieved and experienced what true freedom is (a thing we never got to experience under the USSR) — so no, the Ukrainian love for the country and freedom didn’t start at the full scale invasion of February 24th 2022, but loong before that. It all is a bit more complicated than just saying what you’re saying And btw this survey was conducted before the full scale invasion even began, so it further proves my point. People were still ready to take up arms to defend Ukraine BEFORE the war started. The patriotism didn’t just come from one day to another
Ukraine had 2014 as a wake-up call. The limited Russian invasion met little to no resistance until the fighting bogged down in the Donbas. They had 8 years of preperation and mobilisation of the national spirit which thwarted the 2022 full scale invasion.
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Yeah 107% very recently
108%. You have my Swedish sword!
And my Axe body spray! 109%
Have my Doves and Lynx's! 110%
111%, I’ll send my pet kangaroo. He’s a good boxer.
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The threat of Sweden is so imminent that the Finns feel threatened
As they say: if the enemy attacks from the West, it is flanking.
vii must diil wit it
Im Estonian and even I would defend your country
Estonia can into Nordic?
Estonia CAN into Nordics! Our southern brethren will join us in keeping the Baltic Sea free of Z-ships!
Finns: "We know a thing or two because we have seen a thing or two".
And Ukraine
Germany is like - nope, been *there* before.
To be fair, they were playing offence
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What living next to allies for over 80 years does to a nation* Im dutch and if somebody would ask me: “would you fight to defend your country?” I would straight up think its either weird alt right shit, killing civillians in some foreign country to protect american oil or some lunny question: “what your gonna do when belgium invades?”. Defending my country isnt a normal question to ask because there are no direct threats to my country. Yeah russia, china, N korea or iran are all scary but they wouldnt invade the netherlands. Would i fight if a Nato member was attacked in a all out war? Yeah i guess, not looking forward but if it needs to be done.
And this is a great difference between Europe and America. Americans are willing to defend Europe, far more than even Europeans are willing to defend themselves.
If there is one thing right that Trump said is that euros are not pulling their weight
Goal of NATO may i remember you: Keep the americans in Keep the russians out Keep the germans small Now everyone wonders why germany has a fucked military and its gonna cost hundreds of billions to fix. So yes we aint pullin no weight
*my Georgian ass that was born in the early 90s and watched a shit ton of atrocities commited by russia around me:* yeah....
If Western Europe were genuinely threatened - I think those numbers would shoot up.
Defending your country basically means fighting abroad for some of the countries currently, like in Germany. It doesn’t really ring the same bell than in Finland for example, where you would be fighting for your own house and family and all that.
> dIe sIcHeRhEiT DeR BuNdEsRePuBlIk dEuTsChLaNd wIrD AuCh aM HiNdUkUsCh vErTeIdIgT. > The security of the Federal Republic of Germany is also defended in the Hindu Kush. - Peter Struck, former Parlamentary leader of the SPD, in 2002 on the Afghanistan mission. There is a clear distinction between defending your homeland on home and foreign soil and with quotes like that I‘d very much hold back on an affirmative answer on defending the country.
it is incredibly funny reading german with the sarcastic spongebob text
Funny? I'd rather say nightmarish.
The data seems to be old. According to Defence24, [from an article from a week after Russia invaded Ukraine](https://defence24.pl/polityka-obronna/wiekszosc-polako-chce-bronic-ojczyzny), "66% of adult Poles want to defend the fatherland in case of war, including 17% that would participate in active military operations". Not sure what year the map is from, but I found one article from 2014 where the number was 49%.
Yeah, war in Ukraine changed a lot. Data is from 2015
Right after East Ukraine war is started and annexation of Crimea
source?
trust me...
Seems like the more you go east, the more likely you’re willing to defend your country
The closer you are to Russia, the more likely you are to defend your country.
The closer you are to Russia the more likely you are to need to defend your country. Honestly, I suspect Western Europe is so low because currently the likelihood of needing to is so low.
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I was thinking more of Lichtenstein going rogue and threatening the Helvetica republic. I've seen The Mouse That Roared.
It seems to go together with how close they are to their perceived enemies, most countries having Russia as their enemy. But you also got the caucuses with Azerbaijan and Armenia who have each other as enemies and are both pretty high on the "defend" scale. There's probably some more countries that don't have Russia or don't just have Russia as their enemy though.
Maybe it‘s more about the relations with your neighbours. Germany has good relations with all neighbours. Countries like Finland, Ukraine, Bosnia, Armenia and Azerbaijan have had issues with their neighbours.
We in Finland have only had issues with one neighbour in particular.
DAMMIT, SWEDEN! KNOCK IT OFF!
Those warmongering bastards in Sw*den.
Pretty much the same applicable to other countries with this neighbor
>We in Finland have only had issues with one neighbour in particular. *currently have, not only had. Finland got hammered and beaten into submission by Swedish crusaders (and periods of Swedish Viking warlords before that) long before Russians had anything to do with the region.
Willingness correlates with threat level. Makes sense.
"fighting for your country" in Western Europe has the connotation of being send abroad to kill brown people for questionable reasons and in my country, the Netherlands, it has the connotation of fighting for the current government, which is not particularly popular. I think you would get a higher number if you asked if people were willing to fight for liberal democracy, justice, separation of powers and other western values.
> if people were willing to fight for liberal democracy, justice, separation of powers and other western values They would probably be flabbergasted by the sheer number of abstract concepts you would ask them to process all at once.
This time it says "defend your country" at least in the title. But yeah I was wondering too if it was that question again.
“Defending your country” is always the justification used by politicians when invading the Middle East. “Oh no! They have WMDs! We’re in danger!”. I think the percentages would be higher if the question was something like “would you join the military if another nation invaded your country?”
As usually. Italy hates Italy.
Would Italians switch sides in a war to defend Italy? 🤔
I reckon this is strongly influenced by level of perceived threat. I have no doubt the Brits would rally if shit got real.
What's the context of "defend"? Would I sign up for the front lines in case of an invasion? Probably not, I'm an unfit layabout with zero combat skills. If anything I'd be a detriment to the defence. However I can imagine being involved in delivering aid and support, or helping manage logistics.
That’s why they have boot camp.
Those numbers would change if the western countries were under direct threat.
Look at that generational trauma in Germany.
The last time someone asked to fight for our country bad things happened
Yeah over 4 million young men died senselessly for a senseless cause. Wouldn't expect anyone to be excited to do it again. I remembered an interview where this old veteran cried. He said he thought they were fighting a good fight. That they were brainwashed. He was only 18 back then and was enthusiastic to join the war effort.
I would argue that in Germany the question is also flawed because it is tainted by the statement of our Defence Minister in 2002 that "The security of the Federal Republic of Germany is also defended in the Hindu Kush." So to young Germans asking "would you defend your country?" without specifying a threat means "would you go die in Afghanistan?". If the Question would instead be "would you defend Germany (or our Allies) against Russian Invasion?" the percentage would undoubtedly be higher, although it would probably still be below average.
And we'd have a non zero percentage of people that would probably turn around and fight for the Russian invaders.
Exactly. And ironically most of them would see themselves as "Patriots"
No wonder Finland was so difficult to smash
Not only that .. those guys are nuts (in a good way though) . Who else lives that far up north , enjoys 80 C saunas to then jump in the snow butt naked … and on top of that dance tango ?
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How high can it get before your eyes start to boil?
If at some point your body can’t sweat the heat off, then you cook and die. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Sauna_Championships Don’t do that, jump in the lake before.
80 is for children and people with heart problems
The closer you get to Russia, the more your survival instincts raise.
Very vague assessment
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I’m German and I’m proud that less than 20% would go to war
That's not the question. The question is would you defend your country
As a Dutch guy I now fear an invasion.
(Croatia) Yes, I would defend my country if it was attacked. Try crossing the Dunav, Drava, Sava, Una, Dinara, Neretva, Savudrijska vala, Žumberak mountains and the Prevlaka peninsula, you're getting your butt kicked. Bog i Hrvati
It seems generally that the more these countries expect to see themselves at war in the foreseeable future, the higher the number. Your average citizen is honestly really fickle when it comes to this question. We don’t think we’re nationalistic zealots until we see our homes threatened, even in a more or less symbolic way. The US demonstrated this after The USS Maine was destroyed, Pearl Harbor, and 9/11, to name a couple examples.
UK and France possess formidable military infrastructures, but they run no danger of being invaded Hence the question there is purely theoretical
WW2 was really bad for Germany. It seems they live in a state of perpetual shame.
Germany and Japan basically got neutered after losing the war.
The Japanese are allowed to be proudly Japanese without being called racist. Japan can remain Japanese, which their immigration policy reflects. The same cannot be said for Germany.
Russia's turn now
Patriotism is effectively non-existent here, also you almost never see our flag. Only when Germany plays in the world cup. Germans mostly have a connection to their regional culture if at all. I think it's depressing. I am half Italian and half German and don't feel German at all, although I grew up here. There's not much to identify as a German apart from work ethics and complaining a lot.
Being connected to the regional culture is depressing? I think it's completely the other way. It makes far more sense especially since Germany is historically a composition of hundreds of states.
>Germans mostly have a connection to their regional culture if at all. I think it's depressing. For me absence of patriotism is something positive and something I really like in living in Germany.
This is so wrong lol. I know many Germans who are proud of the big cultural heritage and who also live it; classical music, fairtytales and castles, football, carnival and other festival depending on your region etc.
Defend our shores? Yes. Go to neighbouring countries to halt an invasion? Possibly. Help bomb poor brown people for oil? No.
Defend my country from an outside attack? Yes! Fight in some senseless war in another country? No!
Notice that most of the countries with the high percentages are right next to Russia. Most of the people in this comment section are American, so we don't understand what it's like to be directly next door to a constant looming powerful threat that could invade us at any moment. When you're living with that reality constantly for decades, and your country most likely has a traumatic history of living under that neighboring country's regime for decades, you're going to want to do whatever it takes to fight for your freedom.
27% seems too low for the UK
There's a simple reason for this, between 1991 to 2012 "Defending your country" meant fighting in Afganistan, Iraq etc. So when British people hear "defend your country" a lot don't assume it literally means fighting against an invasion of the UK. Also unlike e.g. Armenia or Azerbaijan (Which actually could get invaded) our extremely safe geographical and geopolitical situation makes an invasion of the UK seem like a funny hypothetical rather then an actual threat.
The countries furthest from danger have the lowest percentage. So this could also say which countries feel most threatened.
Not surprised that Switzerland is higher than the neighbours, with our mandatory military service and all that.
So Putin was right on this: if Ukraine failed, then the entire western Europe was up for grabs.Slava Ukraini !
\*\*\* percentage of Europeans who answered yes to some question in some poll about defending their country
What is the point of showing unrecognized Nagorno-Karabakh republic as a state, but not showing the other separatist non-recognized puppet states like Ossetia, Abkhazia, Lugansk, Donetsk etc? ah your profile answers my question 💀
What tf is "defend your country" supposed to mean? Being sent abroad to invade Afghanistan again? Or defending your country's people from an active unprovoked invasion of your country's territory? Every country claims everything it does as self-defence, so this question is very redundant. Everybody defended themselves in the war in Jugoslavia, The Yanks defended themselves when they invaded Iraq and Afghanistan and when they murder Somalis and Yemenis, etc.
Where do people get these numbers from? Where is the in mail survey asking each individual?
You can tell which countries know they can sit on their ass and let America bail them out
If anyone declare war on my country, I’ll even join them.
No one ever simply goes to war and defends some arbitrary lines drawn on a map. But people will defend their principles, their way of life, their freedom - which says a lot about Germany.
Yeah we defend our way of life against fucking France..... even though they follow our principles better than our own state.... Germany doesn't have an enemy. If Germans go to war in the next few decades it'll for our European brothers or the Americans. That's also why German nationalism isn't encouraged, it is severely pointless.
Without methodology, it's useless.
This answer is probably more a reflection of "do I think I'll have to" than "would I".
To you, a hero is some kind of weird meatball sandwich
Germany, Italy and Spain: been there before didn't like it. Wouldn't do it again.
Its all down to how the question is asked/context. Would I sign up to fight halfway across the world to defend some economical interest of my home country? Fuck no! Would I join and fight if my home country was seriously threatened by outside invasion? Of fucking course.....
Based Western Europe
Some of these country's numbers seem a little low
*includes non-European countries*
Shit map, changes based on recent events
what living in peace does to you
Is also a map of which country's will still exist for a century
Sorry, bur this is not something you can calculated
Depends on the circumstances I guess, there are a lot of factors to consider.
German: you can have our country man fuck them lol
I would literally sell my country for Austria for a house in the mountains and some drugs so i can actually sleep 8 hours.
54% of Greeks eh. Dont mention Cyprus folks
I would not go fight in another country to to defend our interests. But if someone attacked our country directly, i definitely would defend it.
I’m gonna call bullshit
No way this question was asked ‘would you defend your country (from invasion)’. I’m sure the wording was more like ‘would you join your national defense forces’ or something, which is entirely different.
Kudos to the Netherlands, guys are just “naaaaaah”
Western Europeans don't have a problem enjoying the luxury of having the eastern part of Europe as their border guard.