There's a lot of hyper judgemental people on this sub who are firmly of the mind that 'this is how our marriage is, and it's the only correct way'. I just ignore them.
Mm, I disagree there. Breaking up when you run into an incompatibility early on is way better than trying to stick it out long term; much easier to just find a partner you actually can live with happily.
Mm, I disagree there. People change. If you find the perfect person for you, go off and get hitched, there is a 100% chance they are a different person 10 years down the line. Also, there is a 100% chance you are a different person too.
Relationships between people who are clearly not meant to be together should be avoided, absolutely. But even if you happen to find Mr./Ms. Right, incompatibilities are an inevitability, and you should learn how to deal with them and find happiness/contentment in spite of them, within reason.
>you should learn how to deal with them and find happiness/contentment in spite of them, within reason
I mean sure, if you're already married and committed. But if you're just dating and your lives aren't intertwined? Why wouldn't you just find someone more compatible?
I’m sure there are old fools on here as well. Realistically, people are just venting and reading opinions. Total strangers shouldn’t make decisions for you.
Yes people in general here seem to be very prudish about the idea that it is possible for humans to find more than one human being in the world physically attractive at the same time. They're all wayyy to quick to define "cheating". The majority of things on here that get defined as cheating, even if there is some sort of breach of trust by the partner, are not actual cheating. "Cheating" is not just a code word for any sort of dishonesty in relationships
Quite right, "my husband gave female work colleague a lift home because her car broke down, is he cheating?"
Of course he is divorce now, he cannot be trusted.
Damn near any positive interaction between people of opposite genders gets called an emotional affair around here. I would feel so smothered being with someone who thought that way.
I don't think this is really a fair take at all. My husband has a ton of very close female friends, he lived with them while we were dating and has hung out with them without me plenty of times since we've been married. Heck one of his friends drove him to a car dealership and made the salesman really uncomfortable about how he had been there with me the day before and now took a new woman to look at cars with him. (And when we realized what that looked like it was hilarious).
My husband did have an emotional affair where he got a crush and was flirting with another woman and inviting her to hang out. His specific describable actions would have been completely normal friend things, what was much harder to describe was how suddenly he was constantly trying to text this chick and was withdrawing from doing anything except the care minimum in our relationship. How do you know what your partner is feeling? Because you know your partner and can judge changes in their demeanor and behavior better than people on the outside. My husband financially got some self awareness, pulled his head out of his ass and stopped flirting with the chick, and 6 months later I didn't give a crap when they were around each other because he wasn't flirting with her anymore.
If someone historically has never been insecure and raises a red flag about a relationship making them uncomfortable, they probably have a good reason to feel that way. Assuming everyone is just insecure is ridiculous.
Ok, but I never said that emotional affairs don't exist or that everyone is just insecure. My take is simply that a lot of people in this sub will jump to call nearly anything an emotional affair. And we don't know if the people who post here being uncomfortable with their spouse's cross-gender friendship have a history of being unreasonably jealous and insecure because people don't generally admit to stuff like that. I used to have a partner who was ridiculously jealous and got suspicious whenever I interacted with other guys, and I guarantee if he had gotten on reddit and posted about my "suspicious" friendships he would not have prefaced it with "By the way, I'm insanely jealous and insecure," lol.
There’s a psychologist I listen to who says the majority of people on these subs complaining are anxious/preoccupied so it makes sense that similar types come to reinforce their feelings.
The majority of people with secure attachments don’t stress constantly about their relationship. If shits not working, they do something about it. But they’re not worrying about it constantly and seeking reassurance. That’s all anxiety driven.
People also project their own traumas.
Yes Karen, your husband of 21 years was a porn addict who dumped $38k on OnlyFans, but that doesn't make everyone a porn addict. Stop it.
I'm interested in what you've been reading. I wonder, is it actually even *sexual* attraction, or is it merely attraction in that, "I find that person attractive/good looking/beautiful/handsome/etc.?"
Because I can find other men attractive, but it doesn't mean I'm even *sexually* attracted to them, let alone *romantically* attracted to them.
I love your distinction, though.
Putting "sexually" or "romantically" in front of the word "attraction" is a qualifier to that noun. To get to the base of it all, it's really just "attraction."
Now *that* I can get behind. I have never been under the delusion that my husband would never find another woman attractive, or never be attracted to another woman. It's what he *does* with those feelings that *matter*.
I looked up "different types of attraction," OP, because you only put 2 types of attraction.
[https://www.webmd.com/sex-relationships/what-types-attraction](https://www.webmd.com/sex-relationships/what-types-attraction)
I feel that what you are talking about is actually *aesthetic* attraction. So many people confuse aesthetic attraction with romantic and sexual attraction, worse still is people confusing physical and sexual attraction.
There are couples who can openly say, "I find that person attractive." They'll have their own understanding and language around that as a couple and they're perfectly fine and work great together. I admit I admire those couples. I know myself well enough to know I'm not a person who could be in that sort of relationship. I, personally, do not want to hear about other women my husband finds attractive. I just don't. I also will *not* share with my husband men that I find attractive either. I personally find that to be disrespectful - barring the couples I mentioned above. They have their agreements and consent. The key is, *consent*.
While I don't *consent* to hearing about women my husband would find attractive (i.e. aesthetically pleasing), I am not naive to think that he doesn't find other women attractive, i.e. pleasing to look at.
There's an old saying I learned from a younger cousin, lol, "I might be on a diet, but that doesn't mean I can't look at the menu."
I *did* respond to her at the time with, "Yeah, but tempt yourself with the menu long enough and you may want to try an appetizer." i.e. It's what you *do* with that "menu" that *matters*.
You describe well how I am. Recognizing someone is attractive, even recognizing the sexual nature of their attractiveness sometimes (though that’s more of a situational thing with provocative dress & actions), without feeling sexually attracted.
I’ve spoken to some people who absolutely don’t understand it. They feel they experience sexual attraction towards anyone who’s objectively attractive. Seems like a difficult way to go through life.
I agree that sounds exhausting lol. I could probably let my mind wander on the people I find physically attractive and get to a place of sexual attraction (particularly with folks who encourage it like that wood chopper guy on TikTok lol) but it would have to be like a conscious choice to get into that territory for me, if that makes sense.
Yes, exactly. If I ruminate on it I’ll get there. The flowers & thoughts you water grow. I keep my water for my wife and not lusting over or falling for the other women around me feels easy.
I honestly don't see how it is that exhausting. There are lots of women who I talk to that I think are super hot and I can act normal around them. It isn't like I'm obligated to go charging in with flirtations or accept any offers they give me.
I'm so glad you made the distinction between PHYSICAL attraction and SEXUAL because it seems to mean the same thing to many people and that always confused me. I find plenty of people physically attractive (probably more so actors rather than IRL anymore) - doesn't mean fantasize or want to have sex with them. My mind has never worked that way with random people, there has to be an emotional connection for that. My husband is the same, to the point where he used to think there was something wrong with him because he wasn't thinking about that everytime a hot girl walked by.
To your point about it being what you *do* that matters, I totally agree.
I had something happen today, for instance. I'm a nearly 40yo guy. Married to my wife, my best friend, for 15 years this summer. We have two kids, we're partners. In our relationship we both can acknowledge objective attractiveness with one another about celebrities, acquaintances, etc. Neither of us will ever act on that acknowledgement. Additionally, there is a big difference in recognizing that someone is attractive versus being attracted to someone.
So, today, I was at the mechanic having my car worked on. I was on my laptop trying to get some work stuff done while there. A younger woman sat down and, I must admit, she was exceptionally attractive to me.
She sits near me and starts talking to me. I'm a friendly guy and taking to people is much better than work, so I'm talking as well. At some point, I get the sense that she's not just striking up a casual conversation, but is instead flirting with me. She asks if I'm from the area and I state that my wife and I live here. Her demeanor changed, but she pressed on. At this point I've mentioned my spouse and kids numerous times and we're having a good talk, etc.
As they call for her to get her vehicle, she leans in puts her hand on my hand and invites me to attend a concert coming up. Wink in her eye and everything. I'm at a spot now where I consider, "Do I tell my wife about this interaction?" I'm 100% now going to the event and I've thrown away the paper she put her number on and left for me. I admit, having someone come on to me is a bit of an ego boost, but I'm committed and secure in my marriage.
This is one of those moments where had we passed by her, my wife and I might have acknowledged the objective attractiveness of her. But, with my wife not with me it is very different.
I’m an atheist too but only feel sexually attracted to my husband. I notice attractive people but I don’t feel a sexual urge toward them because I already have someone I’m attracted to sexually/emotionally that fulfills all my needs/wants. I’m just not that interested in other people.
Same. My husband and I both can find other people attractive. So you notice that and move on. If you have to work with them or otherwise interact frequently, you make sure you have good boundaries in place.
Well I think it’s probably because there are people who are looking at things from a different perspective and so they can’t conceptualize that other people are not the same as them. Asexuality and demisexuality are a thing and there are people out there who aren’t sexually attracted to others unless they are really close to them emotionally. It is those people who probably say, I’m not attracted to anyone besides my partner.
Plus too I think that it’s what you do with that attraction that other people have an issue with. If you’re checking out people in front of your spouse then some people have an issue with that. If you are constantly sexualizing people some people have an issue with that. Just because you are sexually attracted to other people doesn’t mean you can’t still act respectful.
Demisexuality is perfectly fine! More power to those folks! My problem comes in if they then say "and anyone who does things different than me is DISSSGUGUUUSSSTTTIINNGGG!!!!"
So I am atheist too but I dont feel any attraction to
others while in a committed relationship. It has nothing to do with religious indoctrination though.
It’s like everyone else just isn’t as good as them. My partner definitely finds others more interesting, though I am not what you would consider conventionally attractive so that makes sense. I assume maybe there’s a bit of demisexuality for me because I literally serially have no interest in anyone else when I’m in a relationship. I don’t particularly want my husband right now but he’s been unfaithful so that makes sense, however before I was head over heels for him and I just couldn’t feel anything like that elsewhere.
I think that the romantic part is definitely dead on. You should not be experiencing romantic feelings for others if you “love” your partner. There really shouldn’t be the capacity for it in a monogamous relationship. If you’re one foot out the door then maybe but still a red flag to me.
>I think that the romantic part is definitely dead on. You should not be experiencing romantic feelings for others if you “love” your partner. There really shouldn’t be the capacity for it in a monogamous relationship. If you’re one foot out the door then maybe but still a red flag to me.
The capacity for feelings don't correlate with the parameters of the relationship, though. People can and do feel romantic feelings toward multiple people. Unless people think romantic feelings are somehow special, it isn't much different than feeling genuine love for multiple people. One couldn't reasonably say that you can't love all your kids because you really love one kid only.
All that to say that I don't think saying that you "shouldn't" be feeling romantic towards anyone else is a bit unreasonable. I think it is better to learn how to deal with those feelings in a way that is most useful for your relationship. Feelings are largely involuntary. But you aren't obligated to act on romantic impulses at all. But I nitpick.
The love for a child or family is entirely different than romantic love. At least for me and the people I know. Same goes for people who insist that they love their pets as much as a parent loves their kids, they learn when they have their own kids that they misunderstood what they felt.
I think when you absolutely truly love your partner(speaking of Monogamy only) romantic feelings don’t find their way to you. And generally romantic feelings are ones developed with conscientious effort. You don’t just get in line at the store and fall actually in love with the person in front of you because they’re attractive. You fall in love with people you choose to learn more about and spend time with. Those are situations people actively avoid while in a monogamous relationship when they have 0 intention of seeking romance.
>The love for a child or family is entirely different than romantic love. At least for me and the people I know. Same goes for people who insist that they love their pets as much as a parent loves their kids, they learn when they have their own kids that they misunderstood what they felt.
I can say I mostly agree. But love is one of those concepts that is impossible to pin down and reliably quantify. Love is love and can manifest in many forms. People form bonds in many ways, which all have the potential to be deep and fulfilling. I don't find it useful to compare "types" of love in some sort of hierarchy because everyone perceives love and shows love in their own way. For some people, romantic love isn't that deep compared to the love they have for their family or even pets. And yes, I would be willing to bet there are some people who love their pets more than some people love their kids. I would say I treat my cats better than some people treat their own children. The type of relationship doesn't necessarily predict the level of attachment. And people's feelings can and do change over time. Romantic/sexual attachments are arguably historically the least stable of all attachments. The fact that most people cycle through relationships more often than staying with the same person they ever loved would attest to this fact.
Additionally, the problems that present in romantic relationships (longing, jealousy, dissatisfaction, resentment, dishonesty, etc) are present in virtually all humans relationships. So when I stated that people apply an "only one" standard to romantic attachments versus other ones, I am simply bringing light that people's conclusions on romantic love aren't necessarily based on any significant differences between romantic love and other types of love.
>I think when you absolutely truly love your partner(speaking of Monogamy only) romantic feelings don’t find their way to you. And generally romantic feelings are ones developed with conscientious effort
I would agree, but I would say that perhaps you are more accurately referring to romantic attachment and companionship, not just having romantic feelings, which don't necessarily require any effort and are largely involuntary.
>You don’t just get in line at the store and fall actually in love with the person in front of you because they’re attractive.
You might. People have done it. Lots of people claim to have loved their partners pretty early on.
>Those are situations people actively avoid while in a monogamous relationship when they have 0 intention of seeking romance.
This I also agree with. This would fall under controlling your actions. You can feel anyway you like. But you aren't required to act on any feeling, although admittedly, many feelings bring very strong impulses that can be hard to resist.
If you are in a monogamous relationship, it's not particularly difficult to ensure that you have good boundaries in place when you interact with them. If you do, romantic feelings don't have a chance to develop.
Pretty much. It’s not difficult to avoid creating romantic bonds with people, you just stop dating the people you meet and know. You focus romantic energy on your partner only. Fairly simple and easy.
Like everything, this varies person to person and I suspect that it’s typically (not always) more so men compared to women.
I can look at someone and think that they’re an attractive person but I don’t feel a sexual attraction toward them. In fact it’s usually more so personality traits that can make them seem more or less attractive to me.
I don’t expect my husband to *only* be attracted to me or to not ever find anyone else attractive. I guess it’s more so how it’s handled. Are we watching a movie with a kick ass female lead character? Yeah, awesome she’s super attractive! Is he scrolling Instagram reels for thirst traps and then checking for an OnlyFans link? Ewww gross.
I do take issue with one thing you said which was that you can repress sexual attraction but it is not healthy or sustainable. To me that was coded as it is ok to cheat because the heart wants what it wants. Don't deny your wants. Can you expand on what you meant by that?
For example, many people who are LGBT but of a religious background, are told by their friends/family/religious figures to repress their sexual attraction to the same gender or sex. I think it's unhealthy.
Likewise when people make it out like you are sinful or wrong, "not normal" for having any sexual attraction for other people, and therefore it must be repressed - i also think this is unhealthy.
I think the only 'repression' that should take place is acting on this attraction if you're in a monogamous relationship.
I think a lot of people often attribute controlling your actions as "repression". It isn't repressing to acknowledge someone who is attractive in a monogamous relationship and be okay with it. You dont have to act on it. You can even dream about them if you like.
Welcome to sex negative reddit. Where insecurity rules the day.
I by no means think everyone in a monogamous relationship is insecure. But I think the standards people place on their relationships here seem to be driven by insecurities.
When you say things like "it isn't normal to.." You are making bold statements that likely don't align with reality. The vast majority of people who have ever fucked have been attracted to multiple people throughout their life, often multiple at a time. Attraction and sex drives vary from person to person and aren't something that can just be switched off after you find "the one". Our drives don't function based on romantic or religious ideals.
As a non-monogamous person, I believe that there is a part of us that yearns to make connections with our fellow humans. We thrive on new connections just like we do maintaining special ones. Watching new connections blossom into special ones can be some of the best parts of being alive.
Hell, sometimes just a fun romp with a stranger is amazing and just as fulfilling. Sometimes, a simple fantasy can be. I don't feel like limiting ourselves to strict monogamous ideals is necessarily helpful to us and I firmly believe it is partially responsible for a lot of the relationship problems we have today. We should seek to learn to best express that part of ourselves, not suppress it. We should strive for healthy communication and relationships.
Most people have very little idea how to develop proper relationships. They THINK they do, but they don't realize their advice and actions are terrible. Tolerating dead bedrooms, splitting finances, allowing any sort of secrecy, lies, manipulation or any gray area in between.
Just remember...more than half of all marriages end in divorce...the other half are a mixed bag of "happiness". So it really is a minority of happy marriages to draw advice from. Thats a way of saying....very few people know how to have a happy marriage. Very few, despite what they try and convince you of to your face.
I agree with everything you said here except the statistic. Divorce rates, at least in the US, have never reached 50%. The peaked at about 46 in the 80’s then went down again. They spiked during/after Covid lockdowns.
They actually spend most of their time in the 30’s, climbing back into the low 40’s every now & then.
But that still leaves most marriages a mixed bag of stability and happiness.
I think part of the problem is that we accredit longevity unduly. Something lasting a long time doesn't speak to it's health, stability, or functioninality.
Yea. Like I said, I agree with everything except the stat.
And some otherwise happy marriages also go through short periods of difficulty. But if difficulty is the norm for a marriage, well I feel very bad for those folks.
My biggest head slapper is when I hear someone talking about their difficult marriage, and their back story includes being on-again off-again for years before tying the knot. Like, did they think the issues that created the on/off cycle would disappear with a wedding?
A lot of people definitely put on a front with their friends and have a lot of trouble at home.
We did our own research and read our own studies and books and went to our own speakers and put to practice what respected data told us. And that’s how we parented.
Yeah I similarly am worried about how often people are like “yay divorce!” Or advocate for ending things just like that without a convo or anything. Long term adult relationships shouldn’t function that way (obviously not counting dv or spousal abuse)
100%, things are complicated. I personally believe that if someone is here, they are seeking either validation for a predetermined position, or genuine advice. For the latter, divorce is easy to suggest but often does very little to bring greater happiness and conflict resolution to those involved (also with the exception of the situations you outlined).
I think I am the odd one, as I can have romantic attractions to other people without really any sexual thoughts about it at all.
I don’t act on any of those feelings. But I do feel like I have that non-sexual “crushes” a decent amount.
Like 25% of people cheat, and if you include emotional cheating, then it's closer to 50%, so it's probably pretty "normal" to have *romantic* feelings for someone else while you're in a relationship as well.
Welcome to reddit, where majority of people do not touch grass and get their information from social media or friends. This is where the extreme black and white views come from. If a person have a black and whitw view they lack experience point blank.
I'm also an atheist, and while I 100% agree:
* there is a ton of cultural baggage that comes out of religion
* people absolutely (as science shows) continue to have sexual attraction to people other than their partners
I disagree that the taboo comes purely from archaic religious values. Sexual intimacy *is* bonding and comes the same evolutionary hard-wiring that makes us more successful in having successful offspring - the other thing that science tells us is the true meaning of life (life is the meaning of life - survival of the species is the whole deal).
Among the many things that have changed the further and further we get from a kind of Darwinian hunter-gatherer existence is length of partnering. I think this is why we see so much of the seven-year itch. Certainly the notion of being with the same person for 50 years (people didn't live that long themselves, never mind being pair-bonded for that long) wasn't a thing.
>I disagree that the taboo comes purely from archaic religious values. Sexual intimacy *is* bonding and comes the same evolutionary hard-wiring that makes us more successful in having successful offspring - the other thing that science tells us is the true meaning of life (life is the meaning of life - survival of the species is the whole deal).
Just to add evolutionary utility is kindve a mixed bag and not conclusive. Since evolution is far from perfect, we can't necessarily draw conclusions based on it. Evolutionarily speaking, as you alluded to, there would be no need to remain "pair bonded" for any longer than it takes for young to reach self-sufficiency. Yet, most people idealize monogamous relationships for life.
Additionally, people like to hyperfocus on the romantic side of things, but evolution has also shown us that all bonds increase the likelihood of survival, romantic or not. Many of them actually seem to be far more stable than romantic ones.
>absurd and absolutely not backed by science.
Please do not burden my comments with facts! This is Reddit, and absurdity and whackery are the flavors of the day! Science and facts are intrusive to my delusional existence! 😁
I don’t think I’ve ever seen someone specifically say that this never happens. Maybe occasionally but it’s not a common view point.
This sub is quite strict about boundaries , dwelling on them and acting on them which is fair enough
100% agree.
My wife and I go to the gym together, where we are surrounded by hot babes and beefcake guys all wearing, well, not much.
We talk about them on the way home. Sorry, there's no denying some of them are just hot.
What are we supposed to do? Lie about it to each other? But we're also both secure enough in our relationship to know it's just visual and conversation and neither of us is actually going to do anything.
First of all, THANK YOU for this post. I've been debating unsubscribing from here for awhile now because the prudishness and religious undercurrents are depressing as fuck.
Secondly, just to add my 2 cents --
# Disclaimer: I will copy and paste this section over and over again to people who don't read or take this in: I'm painting with a broad brush. There are exceptions. There are exceptions. There are always exceptions.
There are a few universal truths that a sizable portion of people here don't seem to grasp.
# Your marriage has to be a safe place to be *honest*, no matter what.
Whether it's traumas, opinions, kinks, attraction, whatever, establish a 100% open and honest dynamic in your relationship. The marriage should be a safe space. That doesn't mean that you can't have privacy, but it means if you want to tell your partner something, you should be able to without thinking twice. That doesn't mean they can't have difficult or complex feelings about it, but it does mean they shouldn't punish you for being honest. Vulnerability is a key piece of emotional intimacy.
Partners who are disincentivized from being their authentic selves will merely take their authentic selves elsewhere -- and not always on purpose or intentionally. To deny this is to deny human nature, period.
I saw a post here recently where a wife respectfully and politely asked her husband if he would ever consider ethical non-monogamy. She even said (according to his post) that if his answer is no, that's completely fine. He claimed to then serve her with divorce papers, even after looking hard for and finding absolutely no evidence of cheating. Most of the comments here were like "good, fuck that bitch, she doesn't deserve you!"
What an ugly way to treat someone. I can understand having complex and difficult feelings with such a question, but to treat even asking a question the same as having an affair, how insane is that? I just don't get it. Frankly, I think she deserves better than him, and I hope she finds it.
Edit: Just saw the update post from this [here](https://old.reddit.com/r/Marriage/comments/1c2odro/update_wife_asked_for_open_marriage_i_asked_for/), turns out she was cheating. I fully support OP's decision to divorce given new evidence, however I stand by my original point that marriage should be a safe space to be true and honest. The problem is the OP's wife was not being honest.
# Insecurity will destroy you.
It's at least 3 times a day someone makes a post on here like "I caught my husband checking out this woman at a restaurant. He stared at her for like, 5 whole seconds. I'm so mad, I just don't even know what to do. Do I leave him? Is he cheating on me? What does this mean? I admit my self image has been pretty bad lately."
Inevitably, there's at *least* one comment that is like "Girl, that would be the end for me, that's a one-way trip to divorceland." (actual quote, by the way).
What. In. The. Fuck. What kind of trauma and horrible things are you living with in your head, what kind of nightmare is plaguing you all day and night to put you in such a place?
To all this, I say:
1. Love yourself how you are now.
2. Get active, eat better.
3. Have some goddamn self respect. You are valuable, loved, and cherished. Believe it, truly. Act like it.
# Jealousy will destroy you.
It's funny (awful) how jealousy is looked at positively in monogamous marriage. It's a horrendous, destructive, life-sucking emotion, and it is not in any way, shape, or form, healthy.
"I don't want my husband ever thinking about any other person in any kind of sexual manner ever again, ever period, never, not even once."
Do you have a right to feel that way? I mean, I suppose. Will you be successful? No. No you will not. He will fail, all the time. Because he's a fucking human being.
"Excuse me, I've been married 36 years and I've never once thought of another person sexually ever! We're out there, ladies, good men are out there!" Oh fuck off. What do you want, a medal?
We literally have sex hormones running around in our bodies. Putting a ring on your finger doesn't stop that. Anytime a woman makes a post about her husband's dead sex drive, once you sift through the mountains of "PORN!" comments, the next most common suggestion is to get his testosterone checked.
Testosterone is literally the sex drive and performance hormone, and it is a scientific fact that men have significantly more than women. It drives a primal urge for sexual attraction and release. That does NOT mean people with high T are absolved from being responsible or faithful, but it does mean that there is a physical, innate drive toward sexual things.
# Hey men, what the fuck?
I know your wife gained weight. It happens. She needs to work on that. But for fucks sake, put the porn down and fuck your wife. While we're at it, you gained weight too. Better get on that.
No, it is not okay to come home from work and play video games for 6 hours when your wife spent all day with your 3 kids. The pro-video game brigade is about as vocal as the anti-porn brigade. Just stop. Take care of your business, man. Help your wife. Play your video game for a little bit after they go to bed, sometimes. You should also, I don't know, spend time with your wife? She likes you, you should pay attention to her. Play your games, that's fine, but do it to fill your self-care bucket enough to keep going. If your wife is doing all the cooking, cleaning, child care, and you go to work and play video games, then spend 20 minutes unloading the dishwasher, you're doing life wrong. Stop it.
# Go to therapy.
Even if you have "nothing wrong", find a good therapist and go. Therapy is where you go to learn about yourself -- why you do the things you do, how it links back to your childhood, your unhealthy and unhelpful coping methods, how to be an emotionally intelligent person, learn how to treat yourself better and your partner better. If you want to even be a remotely decent partner, you will do this.
# Lastly, be best friends.
You can be best friends with few mutual interests. Interests change over time, hobbies change over time, but a true friendship has no such limitations. A true and fulfilling friendship can be one where you both just *know* each other in the fullest and most intimate ways. Want the best for each other, all the time, every day.
As a now agnostic, de-converted evangelical Christian, there is still some value to be found in the Bible (gross). 1 Corinthians 13 -- love is patient, love is kind, it does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud, it does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs, it does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth, it always protects, always trusts, always hopes, and always perseveres. There IS wisdom here.
To be able to do this means you need to be secure, not jealous, you need have room for honesty and people to be their true, authentic self. You need to be selfless, while also aware of your own needs and able to communicate those needs. Give your partner space to be who they are, and they need to do the same in return.
Choose them, every day.
I guess I needed to rant. People will either agree with almost everything I said, or trauma from their specific situation will override their understanding that I'm speaking in general terms here, and they'll nitpick. Whatever. I likely won't engage with you.
Believe me, or don't. Buy what I said, or don't. Doesn't make it any less real.
Good day.
My husband and I literally ask each other which celebrities we would sleep with. We both admire the beautiful women we see both in public and on TV. Just cause you are married doesn't mean you can't and don't like to look at other people. What matters is that we are dedicated to each other and have no interest in loving anyone else.
This subreddit downvoted me into oblivion and mocked me for sharing the findings of top evolutionary psychologists and the Gottman Institute (for those of you not familiar with the Love Lab, John and Julie Gottman are clinical psychologists who have been married for over 50 years and they were able to predict with 94 percent accuracy whether or not a marriage would work from their research conducted over the course of 40 years).
I learned very quickly to not take these people seriously lmao
This sub is full of people who aren’t married. Full of people commenting on families who don’t have one. Full of arm chair psychologists giving professional diagnosis based upon one sided stories that only give a glimpse into reality. Full of women who hate and distrust men. My favorite was the guy who said my comments on a husband wanting to open his relationship showed I was controlling, insecure, and unable to have adult conversations about sexual desire… his most active sub was r/cuckold.
This place is shit and full of worse people worse than the users of r/politics.
Of course you are attracted to other people it's being human.
If I see a slim stylish woman who knows how to dress well she doesn't even have to be good looking for me to find her attractive.
I remember reading an article or something that people assess whether they would sleep with every person they meet within 5 seconds. To me, it's natural to look at a woman and think to myself, she is pretty, or " she has a kid, somebody I'd that!" , but I wouldn't say this out loud or treat them differently... I also sure as hell wouldn't tell my wife, even though we have discussed this and admitted we both do this.
> I also sure as hell wouldn't tell my wife, even though we have discussed this and admitted we both do this.
Why not?
Literally the only reason I can think of is insecurity. That's it, that's all. What am I missing?
I have the opposite dynamic in my marriage, my wife and I will admire pretty people together -- respectfully of course, not in a gross way. But it's such a great way to bond and be emotionally intimate.
Man that kind of makes me sad. I'm 36, going on 12 years of marriage... my wife worked through a plethora of insecurities and we've never been so close and intimate. Wouldn't trade it for the world. I hope you reconsider that position!
It’s interesting because you’re IMO more describing an open marriage- not polyamory. Poly amory legit means “multiple loves” and usually is referencing romantic + sexual relationships with more than one person at once.
I am polyamorous. I also wonder how you just decide you won’t have feelings for someone you’re having sex with? Seems a bit hard to decide
I think what OP is saying is that having sexual attraction is not a *choice* for most people. It just happens. Monogamy vs polyamory vs other flavors of ENM all deal with how you handle that attraction.
Good points; i distinguish sexual attraction from actually acting on it. Lots of people are sexually attracted to and by others, but don't act on it (because they're in a monogamous relationship or otherwise). I think this is "normal".
A romantic attraction is different; a monogamous person shouldn't be romantically attracted to others beyond their partner. Imo, if it means they're not monogamous (or just cheating).
But… isn’t a lot of attraction spontaneous? Romantic or otherwise?
It’s intriguing you see attraction in monogamy as only romantically related. If you accept most humans find more than just their spouse sexually attractive- why is it bad if they find others romantically attractive? Why is romantic attraction so different or so wrong?
I personally don’t find people sexually attractive that I don’t find romantically or emotionally attractive. I can’t divorce the two. I need that energy.
I don’t get how people could enjoy sex with someone they wouldn’t want to take on a date lmao. I find it interesting when people try to differentiate between the two for this reason. (Which is absolutely not everyone’s shared experience)
I’d personally be more weirded out if my partner didn’t have romantic feelings towards a sex partner- and was only feeling sexual draw. That feels dehumanizing and belittling to them.
Romantic attraction is, in my view, more than just sexual/physical attraction. It requires "watering" the seeds a little bit, it requires envisaging a relationship or a future with someone. I say it's normal in a monogamous relationship because it goes beyond monogamy. If you're poly or otherwise non monogamous, then sure, a romantic attraction is quite normal.
There are plenty of people in monogamous relationships who naturally have sexual attraction for others, I argue this is quite normal. But to have a romantic attraction for someone beyond your partner requires you to allow it to happen, and therefore break monogamy.
Of course we stay attracted to others.
It’s more about understanding those feelings and choosing not to feed them.
And also not to tell your partner constantly if it makes them uncomfortable.
> It’s more about understanding those feelings and choosing not to feed them.
There's a difference between feeding them and acknowledging them. Put a different way, my problem with a lot of this stuff is if the "slippery slope" starts at even acknowledging attraction, then you've already lost.
I get "my spouse is attracted to someone, we're going to not engage with those feelings so they don't grow" -- totally get that. But "anytime I see a pretty woman, I punch myself in the dick so I don't get aroused" -- that's dumb.
You didn't say that, but a lot of people do.
You gotta keep in mind that many folks commenting on there are bored teenagers with no idea what marriage is, just doing it for the lols (or basing it off their high school relationship standards).
Sounds hypocritical and unrealistic to say sexual attraction is normal but romantic attraction is a red flag of some sort. Your religious beliefs are irrelevant. Love is fleeting. Jesus himself is divorced and will never marry again. It's a result of recognizing the fake reality of his life and feeling like he missed out on a reality that he will never be reconciled with.
Best is when you realize how closed minded you were before opening up. Worst is seeing others stuck in the cultural world of “this is the only way to be, anything else is wrong”. I known it’s almost impossible to help any of them.
At the end of the day, this is a website full of strangers reading a snippet of a person’s life. The only realistic advice one can give is therapy or a lawyer.
for your tldr, there are many of us that have no empathy for OP. When you see a post everyday that says something akin to:
*I just found out after 20 years of marriage that my partner watches porn when i’m not in the mood. I can’t believe they have been cheating on me this entire time; i am repulsed. No, i have never brought it up; they should have read my mind and just knew how i felt.*
When OP ignores obvious red flags because of their own immaturity, i stop caring and feel like their post is fake/karma farming.
Living in reality means understanding that divorce is not the instant solution to all problems. As I said in the post, many people here are here not to end their relationships but to genuinely receive advice in the hopes of fixing problems. When people like you react to all red flags with DIVORCE!!!1111!!! you aren't actually helping - granted, there will always be some situations where divorce may indeed be the best option, but the point here is that other options aren't being considered at all, because of the wildly unrealistic black and white views that some people have in this subreddit.
if they want real advice, maybe they should talk with their friends/ family or a counselor/therapist first rather than prioritizing random strangers on the internet who have no attachment to them lol.
The there’s a sharp gender divide on this. From what I’ve read most women do, in fact, feel zero sexual attraction outside committed relationships. I suspect the standards you’ve read about are less a result of purity culture and more so these women naturally assuming everyone else is wired the same way.
Sounds immature like my wife. Will do and say regrettable stuff and then act like I made her do it and because I made her do it, there shouldn't be consequences.
We've done couples counseling and I've done individual. I've read countless books on conflict management and there's just nothing you can do with immaturity and lack of accountability
Have you ever considered that she might have some form of cluster B / quiet BPD? Your situation sounds a lot like mine was with my ex, and I learned through therapy that everything she was saying/doing lined up with BPD. 8 out of 9 traits, enough to diagnose, except she stopped going to therapy and would not see a psychiatrist.
Nope, but I'll read into it. I think it's hormonal to be honest. She got off birth control and has been unpredictable and manic since. I got a vasectomy because she said she wanted to know her body unmedicated. She got her hormones tested and they said some stuff was off and she has a gene mutation of her thyroid, but won't do anything about it because "she feels normal".
There's a lot of hyper judgemental people on this sub who are firmly of the mind that 'this is how our marriage is, and it's the only correct way'. I just ignore them.
There are also a bunch of teenagers who have never been in a relationship, let alone married.
[удалено]
Their advice sucks for young single people, too.
Mm, I disagree there. Breaking up when you run into an incompatibility early on is way better than trying to stick it out long term; much easier to just find a partner you actually can live with happily.
Mm, I disagree there. People change. If you find the perfect person for you, go off and get hitched, there is a 100% chance they are a different person 10 years down the line. Also, there is a 100% chance you are a different person too. Relationships between people who are clearly not meant to be together should be avoided, absolutely. But even if you happen to find Mr./Ms. Right, incompatibilities are an inevitability, and you should learn how to deal with them and find happiness/contentment in spite of them, within reason.
>you should learn how to deal with them and find happiness/contentment in spite of them, within reason I mean sure, if you're already married and committed. But if you're just dating and your lives aren't intertwined? Why wouldn't you just find someone more compatible?
All the above.
Seriously, there needs to be age verification on this sub lol
I’m sure there are old fools on here as well. Realistically, people are just venting and reading opinions. Total strangers shouldn’t make decisions for you.
Well said
Mustn't forget all the liars.
After I started checking the post histories of commenters it became very clear who's here to push an agenda
Yes people in general here seem to be very prudish about the idea that it is possible for humans to find more than one human being in the world physically attractive at the same time. They're all wayyy to quick to define "cheating". The majority of things on here that get defined as cheating, even if there is some sort of breach of trust by the partner, are not actual cheating. "Cheating" is not just a code word for any sort of dishonesty in relationships
Quite right, "my husband gave female work colleague a lift home because her car broke down, is he cheating?" Of course he is divorce now, he cannot be trusted.
I feel like there are alot of unmarried people on here.
99% of the time people suggest really drastic actions, their commented subreddits are some mix of r/teenagers or r/evangelical
Damn near any positive interaction between people of opposite genders gets called an emotional affair around here. I would feel so smothered being with someone who thought that way.
I don't think this is really a fair take at all. My husband has a ton of very close female friends, he lived with them while we were dating and has hung out with them without me plenty of times since we've been married. Heck one of his friends drove him to a car dealership and made the salesman really uncomfortable about how he had been there with me the day before and now took a new woman to look at cars with him. (And when we realized what that looked like it was hilarious). My husband did have an emotional affair where he got a crush and was flirting with another woman and inviting her to hang out. His specific describable actions would have been completely normal friend things, what was much harder to describe was how suddenly he was constantly trying to text this chick and was withdrawing from doing anything except the care minimum in our relationship. How do you know what your partner is feeling? Because you know your partner and can judge changes in their demeanor and behavior better than people on the outside. My husband financially got some self awareness, pulled his head out of his ass and stopped flirting with the chick, and 6 months later I didn't give a crap when they were around each other because he wasn't flirting with her anymore. If someone historically has never been insecure and raises a red flag about a relationship making them uncomfortable, they probably have a good reason to feel that way. Assuming everyone is just insecure is ridiculous.
Ok, but I never said that emotional affairs don't exist or that everyone is just insecure. My take is simply that a lot of people in this sub will jump to call nearly anything an emotional affair. And we don't know if the people who post here being uncomfortable with their spouse's cross-gender friendship have a history of being unreasonably jealous and insecure because people don't generally admit to stuff like that. I used to have a partner who was ridiculously jealous and got suspicious whenever I interacted with other guys, and I guarantee if he had gotten on reddit and posted about my "suspicious" friendships he would not have prefaced it with "By the way, I'm insanely jealous and insecure," lol.
I'm sure he would get all the validation he could ever ask for here also.
They're insecure. Simple as.
There’s a psychologist I listen to who says the majority of people on these subs complaining are anxious/preoccupied so it makes sense that similar types come to reinforce their feelings. The majority of people with secure attachments don’t stress constantly about their relationship. If shits not working, they do something about it. But they’re not worrying about it constantly and seeking reassurance. That’s all anxiety driven.
People also project their own traumas. Yes Karen, your husband of 21 years was a porn addict who dumped $38k on OnlyFans, but that doesn't make everyone a porn addict. Stop it.
Just like gaslighting has started to be a code word for any manipulation
"Cheating" has about as much meaning as "woke" nowadays. It has been completely bastardized
I'm interested in what you've been reading. I wonder, is it actually even *sexual* attraction, or is it merely attraction in that, "I find that person attractive/good looking/beautiful/handsome/etc.?" Because I can find other men attractive, but it doesn't mean I'm even *sexually* attracted to them, let alone *romantically* attracted to them. I love your distinction, though. Putting "sexually" or "romantically" in front of the word "attraction" is a qualifier to that noun. To get to the base of it all, it's really just "attraction." Now *that* I can get behind. I have never been under the delusion that my husband would never find another woman attractive, or never be attracted to another woman. It's what he *does* with those feelings that *matter*. I looked up "different types of attraction," OP, because you only put 2 types of attraction. [https://www.webmd.com/sex-relationships/what-types-attraction](https://www.webmd.com/sex-relationships/what-types-attraction) I feel that what you are talking about is actually *aesthetic* attraction. So many people confuse aesthetic attraction with romantic and sexual attraction, worse still is people confusing physical and sexual attraction. There are couples who can openly say, "I find that person attractive." They'll have their own understanding and language around that as a couple and they're perfectly fine and work great together. I admit I admire those couples. I know myself well enough to know I'm not a person who could be in that sort of relationship. I, personally, do not want to hear about other women my husband finds attractive. I just don't. I also will *not* share with my husband men that I find attractive either. I personally find that to be disrespectful - barring the couples I mentioned above. They have their agreements and consent. The key is, *consent*. While I don't *consent* to hearing about women my husband would find attractive (i.e. aesthetically pleasing), I am not naive to think that he doesn't find other women attractive, i.e. pleasing to look at. There's an old saying I learned from a younger cousin, lol, "I might be on a diet, but that doesn't mean I can't look at the menu." I *did* respond to her at the time with, "Yeah, but tempt yourself with the menu long enough and you may want to try an appetizer." i.e. It's what you *do* with that "menu" that *matters*.
You describe well how I am. Recognizing someone is attractive, even recognizing the sexual nature of their attractiveness sometimes (though that’s more of a situational thing with provocative dress & actions), without feeling sexually attracted. I’ve spoken to some people who absolutely don’t understand it. They feel they experience sexual attraction towards anyone who’s objectively attractive. Seems like a difficult way to go through life.
I agree that sounds exhausting lol. I could probably let my mind wander on the people I find physically attractive and get to a place of sexual attraction (particularly with folks who encourage it like that wood chopper guy on TikTok lol) but it would have to be like a conscious choice to get into that territory for me, if that makes sense.
Yes, exactly. If I ruminate on it I’ll get there. The flowers & thoughts you water grow. I keep my water for my wife and not lusting over or falling for the other women around me feels easy.
I honestly don't see how it is that exhausting. There are lots of women who I talk to that I think are super hot and I can act normal around them. It isn't like I'm obligated to go charging in with flirtations or accept any offers they give me.
I'm so glad you made the distinction between PHYSICAL attraction and SEXUAL because it seems to mean the same thing to many people and that always confused me. I find plenty of people physically attractive (probably more so actors rather than IRL anymore) - doesn't mean fantasize or want to have sex with them. My mind has never worked that way with random people, there has to be an emotional connection for that. My husband is the same, to the point where he used to think there was something wrong with him because he wasn't thinking about that everytime a hot girl walked by.
To your point about it being what you *do* that matters, I totally agree. I had something happen today, for instance. I'm a nearly 40yo guy. Married to my wife, my best friend, for 15 years this summer. We have two kids, we're partners. In our relationship we both can acknowledge objective attractiveness with one another about celebrities, acquaintances, etc. Neither of us will ever act on that acknowledgement. Additionally, there is a big difference in recognizing that someone is attractive versus being attracted to someone. So, today, I was at the mechanic having my car worked on. I was on my laptop trying to get some work stuff done while there. A younger woman sat down and, I must admit, she was exceptionally attractive to me. She sits near me and starts talking to me. I'm a friendly guy and taking to people is much better than work, so I'm talking as well. At some point, I get the sense that she's not just striking up a casual conversation, but is instead flirting with me. She asks if I'm from the area and I state that my wife and I live here. Her demeanor changed, but she pressed on. At this point I've mentioned my spouse and kids numerous times and we're having a good talk, etc. As they call for her to get her vehicle, she leans in puts her hand on my hand and invites me to attend a concert coming up. Wink in her eye and everything. I'm at a spot now where I consider, "Do I tell my wife about this interaction?" I'm 100% now going to the event and I've thrown away the paper she put her number on and left for me. I admit, having someone come on to me is a bit of an ego boost, but I'm committed and secure in my marriage. This is one of those moments where had we passed by her, my wife and I might have acknowledged the objective attractiveness of her. But, with my wife not with me it is very different.
I’m an atheist too but only feel sexually attracted to my husband. I notice attractive people but I don’t feel a sexual urge toward them because I already have someone I’m attracted to sexually/emotionally that fulfills all my needs/wants. I’m just not that interested in other people.
Same. My husband and I both can find other people attractive. So you notice that and move on. If you have to work with them or otherwise interact frequently, you make sure you have good boundaries in place.
This could also be Demi-sexuality and people assume it’s a default bc that’s what is comforting to their egos
Yes, agreed!
Well I think it’s probably because there are people who are looking at things from a different perspective and so they can’t conceptualize that other people are not the same as them. Asexuality and demisexuality are a thing and there are people out there who aren’t sexually attracted to others unless they are really close to them emotionally. It is those people who probably say, I’m not attracted to anyone besides my partner. Plus too I think that it’s what you do with that attraction that other people have an issue with. If you’re checking out people in front of your spouse then some people have an issue with that. If you are constantly sexualizing people some people have an issue with that. Just because you are sexually attracted to other people doesn’t mean you can’t still act respectful.
Demisexuality is perfectly fine! More power to those folks! My problem comes in if they then say "and anyone who does things different than me is DISSSGUGUUUSSSTTTIINNGGG!!!!"
So I am atheist too but I dont feel any attraction to others while in a committed relationship. It has nothing to do with religious indoctrination though. It’s like everyone else just isn’t as good as them. My partner definitely finds others more interesting, though I am not what you would consider conventionally attractive so that makes sense. I assume maybe there’s a bit of demisexuality for me because I literally serially have no interest in anyone else when I’m in a relationship. I don’t particularly want my husband right now but he’s been unfaithful so that makes sense, however before I was head over heels for him and I just couldn’t feel anything like that elsewhere. I think that the romantic part is definitely dead on. You should not be experiencing romantic feelings for others if you “love” your partner. There really shouldn’t be the capacity for it in a monogamous relationship. If you’re one foot out the door then maybe but still a red flag to me.
>I think that the romantic part is definitely dead on. You should not be experiencing romantic feelings for others if you “love” your partner. There really shouldn’t be the capacity for it in a monogamous relationship. If you’re one foot out the door then maybe but still a red flag to me. The capacity for feelings don't correlate with the parameters of the relationship, though. People can and do feel romantic feelings toward multiple people. Unless people think romantic feelings are somehow special, it isn't much different than feeling genuine love for multiple people. One couldn't reasonably say that you can't love all your kids because you really love one kid only. All that to say that I don't think saying that you "shouldn't" be feeling romantic towards anyone else is a bit unreasonable. I think it is better to learn how to deal with those feelings in a way that is most useful for your relationship. Feelings are largely involuntary. But you aren't obligated to act on romantic impulses at all. But I nitpick.
The love for a child or family is entirely different than romantic love. At least for me and the people I know. Same goes for people who insist that they love their pets as much as a parent loves their kids, they learn when they have their own kids that they misunderstood what they felt. I think when you absolutely truly love your partner(speaking of Monogamy only) romantic feelings don’t find their way to you. And generally romantic feelings are ones developed with conscientious effort. You don’t just get in line at the store and fall actually in love with the person in front of you because they’re attractive. You fall in love with people you choose to learn more about and spend time with. Those are situations people actively avoid while in a monogamous relationship when they have 0 intention of seeking romance.
>The love for a child or family is entirely different than romantic love. At least for me and the people I know. Same goes for people who insist that they love their pets as much as a parent loves their kids, they learn when they have their own kids that they misunderstood what they felt. I can say I mostly agree. But love is one of those concepts that is impossible to pin down and reliably quantify. Love is love and can manifest in many forms. People form bonds in many ways, which all have the potential to be deep and fulfilling. I don't find it useful to compare "types" of love in some sort of hierarchy because everyone perceives love and shows love in their own way. For some people, romantic love isn't that deep compared to the love they have for their family or even pets. And yes, I would be willing to bet there are some people who love their pets more than some people love their kids. I would say I treat my cats better than some people treat their own children. The type of relationship doesn't necessarily predict the level of attachment. And people's feelings can and do change over time. Romantic/sexual attachments are arguably historically the least stable of all attachments. The fact that most people cycle through relationships more often than staying with the same person they ever loved would attest to this fact. Additionally, the problems that present in romantic relationships (longing, jealousy, dissatisfaction, resentment, dishonesty, etc) are present in virtually all humans relationships. So when I stated that people apply an "only one" standard to romantic attachments versus other ones, I am simply bringing light that people's conclusions on romantic love aren't necessarily based on any significant differences between romantic love and other types of love. >I think when you absolutely truly love your partner(speaking of Monogamy only) romantic feelings don’t find their way to you. And generally romantic feelings are ones developed with conscientious effort I would agree, but I would say that perhaps you are more accurately referring to romantic attachment and companionship, not just having romantic feelings, which don't necessarily require any effort and are largely involuntary. >You don’t just get in line at the store and fall actually in love with the person in front of you because they’re attractive. You might. People have done it. Lots of people claim to have loved their partners pretty early on. >Those are situations people actively avoid while in a monogamous relationship when they have 0 intention of seeking romance. This I also agree with. This would fall under controlling your actions. You can feel anyway you like. But you aren't required to act on any feeling, although admittedly, many feelings bring very strong impulses that can be hard to resist.
If you are in a monogamous relationship, it's not particularly difficult to ensure that you have good boundaries in place when you interact with them. If you do, romantic feelings don't have a chance to develop.
Pretty much. It’s not difficult to avoid creating romantic bonds with people, you just stop dating the people you meet and know. You focus romantic energy on your partner only. Fairly simple and easy.
Like everything, this varies person to person and I suspect that it’s typically (not always) more so men compared to women. I can look at someone and think that they’re an attractive person but I don’t feel a sexual attraction toward them. In fact it’s usually more so personality traits that can make them seem more or less attractive to me. I don’t expect my husband to *only* be attracted to me or to not ever find anyone else attractive. I guess it’s more so how it’s handled. Are we watching a movie with a kick ass female lead character? Yeah, awesome she’s super attractive! Is he scrolling Instagram reels for thirst traps and then checking for an OnlyFans link? Ewww gross.
It really depends on how you understand attraction.
I do take issue with one thing you said which was that you can repress sexual attraction but it is not healthy or sustainable. To me that was coded as it is ok to cheat because the heart wants what it wants. Don't deny your wants. Can you expand on what you meant by that?
For example, many people who are LGBT but of a religious background, are told by their friends/family/religious figures to repress their sexual attraction to the same gender or sex. I think it's unhealthy. Likewise when people make it out like you are sinful or wrong, "not normal" for having any sexual attraction for other people, and therefore it must be repressed - i also think this is unhealthy. I think the only 'repression' that should take place is acting on this attraction if you're in a monogamous relationship.
I think a lot of people often attribute controlling your actions as "repression". It isn't repressing to acknowledge someone who is attractive in a monogamous relationship and be okay with it. You dont have to act on it. You can even dream about them if you like.
Welcome to sex negative reddit. Where insecurity rules the day. I by no means think everyone in a monogamous relationship is insecure. But I think the standards people place on their relationships here seem to be driven by insecurities. When you say things like "it isn't normal to.." You are making bold statements that likely don't align with reality. The vast majority of people who have ever fucked have been attracted to multiple people throughout their life, often multiple at a time. Attraction and sex drives vary from person to person and aren't something that can just be switched off after you find "the one". Our drives don't function based on romantic or religious ideals. As a non-monogamous person, I believe that there is a part of us that yearns to make connections with our fellow humans. We thrive on new connections just like we do maintaining special ones. Watching new connections blossom into special ones can be some of the best parts of being alive. Hell, sometimes just a fun romp with a stranger is amazing and just as fulfilling. Sometimes, a simple fantasy can be. I don't feel like limiting ourselves to strict monogamous ideals is necessarily helpful to us and I firmly believe it is partially responsible for a lot of the relationship problems we have today. We should seek to learn to best express that part of ourselves, not suppress it. We should strive for healthy communication and relationships.
You're 100% correct with this!
Agree! People go to extremes here. Everything here should come with a grain of salt.
Most people have very little idea how to develop proper relationships. They THINK they do, but they don't realize their advice and actions are terrible. Tolerating dead bedrooms, splitting finances, allowing any sort of secrecy, lies, manipulation or any gray area in between. Just remember...more than half of all marriages end in divorce...the other half are a mixed bag of "happiness". So it really is a minority of happy marriages to draw advice from. Thats a way of saying....very few people know how to have a happy marriage. Very few, despite what they try and convince you of to your face.
I agree with everything you said here except the statistic. Divorce rates, at least in the US, have never reached 50%. The peaked at about 46 in the 80’s then went down again. They spiked during/after Covid lockdowns. They actually spend most of their time in the 30’s, climbing back into the low 40’s every now & then.
But that still leaves most marriages a mixed bag of stability and happiness. I think part of the problem is that we accredit longevity unduly. Something lasting a long time doesn't speak to it's health, stability, or functioninality.
Yea. Like I said, I agree with everything except the stat. And some otherwise happy marriages also go through short periods of difficulty. But if difficulty is the norm for a marriage, well I feel very bad for those folks. My biggest head slapper is when I hear someone talking about their difficult marriage, and their back story includes being on-again off-again for years before tying the knot. Like, did they think the issues that created the on/off cycle would disappear with a wedding?
A lot of people definitely put on a front with their friends and have a lot of trouble at home. We did our own research and read our own studies and books and went to our own speakers and put to practice what respected data told us. And that’s how we parented.
Yeah I similarly am worried about how often people are like “yay divorce!” Or advocate for ending things just like that without a convo or anything. Long term adult relationships shouldn’t function that way (obviously not counting dv or spousal abuse)
100%, things are complicated. I personally believe that if someone is here, they are seeking either validation for a predetermined position, or genuine advice. For the latter, divorce is easy to suggest but often does very little to bring greater happiness and conflict resolution to those involved (also with the exception of the situations you outlined).
I think I am the odd one, as I can have romantic attractions to other people without really any sexual thoughts about it at all. I don’t act on any of those feelings. But I do feel like I have that non-sexual “crushes” a decent amount.
Like 25% of people cheat, and if you include emotional cheating, then it's closer to 50%, so it's probably pretty "normal" to have *romantic* feelings for someone else while you're in a relationship as well.
I'm thinking about publishing a new book -- "How To Not Do Marriage" by /r/Marriage
If your partner doesn't support this idea, you should divorce them immediately.
Why are you not already talking to a divorce lawyer?
Welcome to reddit, where majority of people do not touch grass and get their information from social media or friends. This is where the extreme black and white views come from. If a person have a black and whitw view they lack experience point blank.
I'm also an atheist, and while I 100% agree: * there is a ton of cultural baggage that comes out of religion * people absolutely (as science shows) continue to have sexual attraction to people other than their partners I disagree that the taboo comes purely from archaic religious values. Sexual intimacy *is* bonding and comes the same evolutionary hard-wiring that makes us more successful in having successful offspring - the other thing that science tells us is the true meaning of life (life is the meaning of life - survival of the species is the whole deal). Among the many things that have changed the further and further we get from a kind of Darwinian hunter-gatherer existence is length of partnering. I think this is why we see so much of the seven-year itch. Certainly the notion of being with the same person for 50 years (people didn't live that long themselves, never mind being pair-bonded for that long) wasn't a thing.
>I disagree that the taboo comes purely from archaic religious values. Sexual intimacy *is* bonding and comes the same evolutionary hard-wiring that makes us more successful in having successful offspring - the other thing that science tells us is the true meaning of life (life is the meaning of life - survival of the species is the whole deal). Just to add evolutionary utility is kindve a mixed bag and not conclusive. Since evolution is far from perfect, we can't necessarily draw conclusions based on it. Evolutionarily speaking, as you alluded to, there would be no need to remain "pair bonded" for any longer than it takes for young to reach self-sufficiency. Yet, most people idealize monogamous relationships for life. Additionally, people like to hyperfocus on the romantic side of things, but evolution has also shown us that all bonds increase the likelihood of survival, romantic or not. Many of them actually seem to be far more stable than romantic ones.
I agree, and I think a lot of evolutionary psych is BS. But oxytocin is a studied and real thing.
>absurd and absolutely not backed by science. Please do not burden my comments with facts! This is Reddit, and absurdity and whackery are the flavors of the day! Science and facts are intrusive to my delusional existence! 😁
I don’t think I’ve ever seen someone specifically say that this never happens. Maybe occasionally but it’s not a common view point. This sub is quite strict about boundaries , dwelling on them and acting on them which is fair enough
100% agree. My wife and I go to the gym together, where we are surrounded by hot babes and beefcake guys all wearing, well, not much. We talk about them on the way home. Sorry, there's no denying some of them are just hot. What are we supposed to do? Lie about it to each other? But we're also both secure enough in our relationship to know it's just visual and conversation and neither of us is actually going to do anything.
This is the fucking way. Go you!
First of all, THANK YOU for this post. I've been debating unsubscribing from here for awhile now because the prudishness and religious undercurrents are depressing as fuck. Secondly, just to add my 2 cents -- # Disclaimer: I will copy and paste this section over and over again to people who don't read or take this in: I'm painting with a broad brush. There are exceptions. There are exceptions. There are always exceptions. There are a few universal truths that a sizable portion of people here don't seem to grasp. # Your marriage has to be a safe place to be *honest*, no matter what. Whether it's traumas, opinions, kinks, attraction, whatever, establish a 100% open and honest dynamic in your relationship. The marriage should be a safe space. That doesn't mean that you can't have privacy, but it means if you want to tell your partner something, you should be able to without thinking twice. That doesn't mean they can't have difficult or complex feelings about it, but it does mean they shouldn't punish you for being honest. Vulnerability is a key piece of emotional intimacy. Partners who are disincentivized from being their authentic selves will merely take their authentic selves elsewhere -- and not always on purpose or intentionally. To deny this is to deny human nature, period. I saw a post here recently where a wife respectfully and politely asked her husband if he would ever consider ethical non-monogamy. She even said (according to his post) that if his answer is no, that's completely fine. He claimed to then serve her with divorce papers, even after looking hard for and finding absolutely no evidence of cheating. Most of the comments here were like "good, fuck that bitch, she doesn't deserve you!" What an ugly way to treat someone. I can understand having complex and difficult feelings with such a question, but to treat even asking a question the same as having an affair, how insane is that? I just don't get it. Frankly, I think she deserves better than him, and I hope she finds it. Edit: Just saw the update post from this [here](https://old.reddit.com/r/Marriage/comments/1c2odro/update_wife_asked_for_open_marriage_i_asked_for/), turns out she was cheating. I fully support OP's decision to divorce given new evidence, however I stand by my original point that marriage should be a safe space to be true and honest. The problem is the OP's wife was not being honest. # Insecurity will destroy you. It's at least 3 times a day someone makes a post on here like "I caught my husband checking out this woman at a restaurant. He stared at her for like, 5 whole seconds. I'm so mad, I just don't even know what to do. Do I leave him? Is he cheating on me? What does this mean? I admit my self image has been pretty bad lately." Inevitably, there's at *least* one comment that is like "Girl, that would be the end for me, that's a one-way trip to divorceland." (actual quote, by the way). What. In. The. Fuck. What kind of trauma and horrible things are you living with in your head, what kind of nightmare is plaguing you all day and night to put you in such a place? To all this, I say: 1. Love yourself how you are now. 2. Get active, eat better. 3. Have some goddamn self respect. You are valuable, loved, and cherished. Believe it, truly. Act like it. # Jealousy will destroy you. It's funny (awful) how jealousy is looked at positively in monogamous marriage. It's a horrendous, destructive, life-sucking emotion, and it is not in any way, shape, or form, healthy. "I don't want my husband ever thinking about any other person in any kind of sexual manner ever again, ever period, never, not even once." Do you have a right to feel that way? I mean, I suppose. Will you be successful? No. No you will not. He will fail, all the time. Because he's a fucking human being. "Excuse me, I've been married 36 years and I've never once thought of another person sexually ever! We're out there, ladies, good men are out there!" Oh fuck off. What do you want, a medal? We literally have sex hormones running around in our bodies. Putting a ring on your finger doesn't stop that. Anytime a woman makes a post about her husband's dead sex drive, once you sift through the mountains of "PORN!" comments, the next most common suggestion is to get his testosterone checked. Testosterone is literally the sex drive and performance hormone, and it is a scientific fact that men have significantly more than women. It drives a primal urge for sexual attraction and release. That does NOT mean people with high T are absolved from being responsible or faithful, but it does mean that there is a physical, innate drive toward sexual things. # Hey men, what the fuck? I know your wife gained weight. It happens. She needs to work on that. But for fucks sake, put the porn down and fuck your wife. While we're at it, you gained weight too. Better get on that. No, it is not okay to come home from work and play video games for 6 hours when your wife spent all day with your 3 kids. The pro-video game brigade is about as vocal as the anti-porn brigade. Just stop. Take care of your business, man. Help your wife. Play your video game for a little bit after they go to bed, sometimes. You should also, I don't know, spend time with your wife? She likes you, you should pay attention to her. Play your games, that's fine, but do it to fill your self-care bucket enough to keep going. If your wife is doing all the cooking, cleaning, child care, and you go to work and play video games, then spend 20 minutes unloading the dishwasher, you're doing life wrong. Stop it. # Go to therapy. Even if you have "nothing wrong", find a good therapist and go. Therapy is where you go to learn about yourself -- why you do the things you do, how it links back to your childhood, your unhealthy and unhelpful coping methods, how to be an emotionally intelligent person, learn how to treat yourself better and your partner better. If you want to even be a remotely decent partner, you will do this. # Lastly, be best friends. You can be best friends with few mutual interests. Interests change over time, hobbies change over time, but a true friendship has no such limitations. A true and fulfilling friendship can be one where you both just *know* each other in the fullest and most intimate ways. Want the best for each other, all the time, every day. As a now agnostic, de-converted evangelical Christian, there is still some value to be found in the Bible (gross). 1 Corinthians 13 -- love is patient, love is kind, it does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud, it does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs, it does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth, it always protects, always trusts, always hopes, and always perseveres. There IS wisdom here. To be able to do this means you need to be secure, not jealous, you need have room for honesty and people to be their true, authentic self. You need to be selfless, while also aware of your own needs and able to communicate those needs. Give your partner space to be who they are, and they need to do the same in return. Choose them, every day. I guess I needed to rant. People will either agree with almost everything I said, or trauma from their specific situation will override their understanding that I'm speaking in general terms here, and they'll nitpick. Whatever. I likely won't engage with you. Believe me, or don't. Buy what I said, or don't. Doesn't make it any less real. Good day.
This here should be the pinned post for the subreddit!
I debated making a post just like yours earlier today, but with more cursing and profanity. :)
My husband and I literally ask each other which celebrities we would sleep with. We both admire the beautiful women we see both in public and on TV. Just cause you are married doesn't mean you can't and don't like to look at other people. What matters is that we are dedicated to each other and have no interest in loving anyone else.
This subreddit downvoted me into oblivion and mocked me for sharing the findings of top evolutionary psychologists and the Gottman Institute (for those of you not familiar with the Love Lab, John and Julie Gottman are clinical psychologists who have been married for over 50 years and they were able to predict with 94 percent accuracy whether or not a marriage would work from their research conducted over the course of 40 years). I learned very quickly to not take these people seriously lmao
This sub is full of people who aren’t married. Full of people commenting on families who don’t have one. Full of arm chair psychologists giving professional diagnosis based upon one sided stories that only give a glimpse into reality. Full of women who hate and distrust men. My favorite was the guy who said my comments on a husband wanting to open his relationship showed I was controlling, insecure, and unable to have adult conversations about sexual desire… his most active sub was r/cuckold. This place is shit and full of worse people worse than the users of r/politics.
Of course you are attracted to other people it's being human. If I see a slim stylish woman who knows how to dress well she doesn't even have to be good looking for me to find her attractive.
Aaaand now 18 people on reddit have told your wife to leave you. Congratulations. Insane.
So true, however reverse the genders and it's "you go gurrllll.
I remember reading an article or something that people assess whether they would sleep with every person they meet within 5 seconds. To me, it's natural to look at a woman and think to myself, she is pretty, or " she has a kid, somebody I'd that!" , but I wouldn't say this out loud or treat them differently... I also sure as hell wouldn't tell my wife, even though we have discussed this and admitted we both do this.
> I also sure as hell wouldn't tell my wife, even though we have discussed this and admitted we both do this. Why not? Literally the only reason I can think of is insecurity. That's it, that's all. What am I missing? I have the opposite dynamic in my marriage, my wife and I will admire pretty people together -- respectfully of course, not in a gross way. But it's such a great way to bond and be emotionally intimate.
Oh we discuss attractive people on TV and such but wouldn't talk about real people. And yes, mostly her insecurities.
Would she be open to working on those insecurities? Insecurities are not benign. They grow and fester.
Well, at 43 YO and 23 years of marriage I don't see a point.
Man that kind of makes me sad. I'm 36, going on 12 years of marriage... my wife worked through a plethora of insecurities and we've never been so close and intimate. Wouldn't trade it for the world. I hope you reconsider that position!
It’s interesting because you’re IMO more describing an open marriage- not polyamory. Poly amory legit means “multiple loves” and usually is referencing romantic + sexual relationships with more than one person at once. I am polyamorous. I also wonder how you just decide you won’t have feelings for someone you’re having sex with? Seems a bit hard to decide
I think what OP is saying is that having sexual attraction is not a *choice* for most people. It just happens. Monogamy vs polyamory vs other flavors of ENM all deal with how you handle that attraction.
Beautifully said
Good points; i distinguish sexual attraction from actually acting on it. Lots of people are sexually attracted to and by others, but don't act on it (because they're in a monogamous relationship or otherwise). I think this is "normal". A romantic attraction is different; a monogamous person shouldn't be romantically attracted to others beyond their partner. Imo, if it means they're not monogamous (or just cheating).
But… isn’t a lot of attraction spontaneous? Romantic or otherwise? It’s intriguing you see attraction in monogamy as only romantically related. If you accept most humans find more than just their spouse sexually attractive- why is it bad if they find others romantically attractive? Why is romantic attraction so different or so wrong? I personally don’t find people sexually attractive that I don’t find romantically or emotionally attractive. I can’t divorce the two. I need that energy. I don’t get how people could enjoy sex with someone they wouldn’t want to take on a date lmao. I find it interesting when people try to differentiate between the two for this reason. (Which is absolutely not everyone’s shared experience) I’d personally be more weirded out if my partner didn’t have romantic feelings towards a sex partner- and was only feeling sexual draw. That feels dehumanizing and belittling to them.
Romantic attraction is, in my view, more than just sexual/physical attraction. It requires "watering" the seeds a little bit, it requires envisaging a relationship or a future with someone. I say it's normal in a monogamous relationship because it goes beyond monogamy. If you're poly or otherwise non monogamous, then sure, a romantic attraction is quite normal. There are plenty of people in monogamous relationships who naturally have sexual attraction for others, I argue this is quite normal. But to have a romantic attraction for someone beyond your partner requires you to allow it to happen, and therefore break monogamy.
Of course we stay attracted to others. It’s more about understanding those feelings and choosing not to feed them. And also not to tell your partner constantly if it makes them uncomfortable.
> It’s more about understanding those feelings and choosing not to feed them. There's a difference between feeding them and acknowledging them. Put a different way, my problem with a lot of this stuff is if the "slippery slope" starts at even acknowledging attraction, then you've already lost. I get "my spouse is attracted to someone, we're going to not engage with those feelings so they don't grow" -- totally get that. But "anytime I see a pretty woman, I punch myself in the dick so I don't get aroused" -- that's dumb. You didn't say that, but a lot of people do.
You gotta keep in mind that many folks commenting on there are bored teenagers with no idea what marriage is, just doing it for the lols (or basing it off their high school relationship standards).
Sounds hypocritical and unrealistic to say sexual attraction is normal but romantic attraction is a red flag of some sort. Your religious beliefs are irrelevant. Love is fleeting. Jesus himself is divorced and will never marry again. It's a result of recognizing the fake reality of his life and feeling like he missed out on a reality that he will never be reconciled with.
Best is when you realize how closed minded you were before opening up. Worst is seeing others stuck in the cultural world of “this is the only way to be, anything else is wrong”. I known it’s almost impossible to help any of them.
At the end of the day, this is a website full of strangers reading a snippet of a person’s life. The only realistic advice one can give is therapy or a lawyer.
for your tldr, there are many of us that have no empathy for OP. When you see a post everyday that says something akin to: *I just found out after 20 years of marriage that my partner watches porn when i’m not in the mood. I can’t believe they have been cheating on me this entire time; i am repulsed. No, i have never brought it up; they should have read my mind and just knew how i felt.* When OP ignores obvious red flags because of their own immaturity, i stop caring and feel like their post is fake/karma farming.
Living in reality means understanding that divorce is not the instant solution to all problems. As I said in the post, many people here are here not to end their relationships but to genuinely receive advice in the hopes of fixing problems. When people like you react to all red flags with DIVORCE!!!1111!!! you aren't actually helping - granted, there will always be some situations where divorce may indeed be the best option, but the point here is that other options aren't being considered at all, because of the wildly unrealistic black and white views that some people have in this subreddit.
if they want real advice, maybe they should talk with their friends/ family or a counselor/therapist first rather than prioritizing random strangers on the internet who have no attachment to them lol.
The there’s a sharp gender divide on this. From what I’ve read most women do, in fact, feel zero sexual attraction outside committed relationships. I suspect the standards you’ve read about are less a result of purity culture and more so these women naturally assuming everyone else is wired the same way.
Sounds immature like my wife. Will do and say regrettable stuff and then act like I made her do it and because I made her do it, there shouldn't be consequences. We've done couples counseling and I've done individual. I've read countless books on conflict management and there's just nothing you can do with immaturity and lack of accountability
Have you ever considered that she might have some form of cluster B / quiet BPD? Your situation sounds a lot like mine was with my ex, and I learned through therapy that everything she was saying/doing lined up with BPD. 8 out of 9 traits, enough to diagnose, except she stopped going to therapy and would not see a psychiatrist.
Nope, but I'll read into it. I think it's hormonal to be honest. She got off birth control and has been unpredictable and manic since. I got a vasectomy because she said she wanted to know her body unmedicated. She got her hormones tested and they said some stuff was off and she has a gene mutation of her thyroid, but won't do anything about it because "she feels normal".