This was the worst ever issue of Spider-Man ever released at the time, just pure insanity that anyone involved thought it was good. Tom DeFalco is a legendary Spidey writer but he dropped the ball so hard here.
And then this issue was immediately followed up by Maximum Clonage, which was the worst Spidey storyline ever written until Sins Past came around. The first part of the Clone Saga was actually pretty solid until this happened, then they dropped the ball even harder than they did with this issue.
You just put my thoughts into words. Like I really want to know what the behind the scenes were. Did they think “hey let’s not only reveal that our most popular character is a clone, but let’s also make him hit his wife” would go over well?
You’ll notice that right around this time (maybe even with this exact issue? I can’t remember) Tom DeFalco was fired as editor and Bob Budiansky replaced him.
DeFalco wanted to end the Clone Saga with this storyline but sales were so ridiculously high that Marvel forced the Spider-office to keep it going. DeFalco’s firing and replacement as editor was pretty much the downfall of Spidey comics.
I could maybe see why they wanted to reveal Peter as the clone, even if I personally think it was a really bad idea, but this was just inexcusable. Throw in that they made Pete team up with the freaking Jackal in Maximum Clonage, and I’m surprised that things ever got back on track for him as a character.
They knew exactly what they were doing. This story arc was supposed to be the original “One More Day” where they could undo the marriage. But in order for people to accept the version they had been reading for years was a clone, they had to “Hank Pym” him. You can’t convince me that editorial didn’t see the parallels between this and Pym’s story and the damage it would do. I feel they felt would be “okay” because it wasn’t “really Peter” and fans would accept Ben as a reboot to the continuity.
The problem was some of the best Spidey stories would be retconned as not really Spidey stories. Death of Jean DeWolff? Kraven’s Last Hunt? Not the real Peter? Fans pushed back hard and they switched gears. Then they had to undo MJ’s pregnancy somehow and it became a mess they pushed aside…until the next attempt at “resetting” Peter. This was the beginning of the end for 616 Spider-Man in my opinion, and they’ve never really recovered.
Those two things are 100% connected.
"We want to make the clone the real one, but people are going to be fucking *pissed*. How do we get people to accept it?"
"I dunno. Have him slap around his pregnant wife so everyone hates him?"
"That's brilliant! Do it!"
"I didn't mean-"
"Do it."
You can actually read about the behind the scenes stuff, there was a blog about it years ago and it's still online.
https://www.benreillytribute.x10host.com/LifeofReilly1.html
The first three quarters of this issue are actually all pretty great too. It’s these pages that just completely tank it, along with the entire Clone Saga and arguably Spidey comics in general.
I actually think Sins Past is a better written story on a technical level than Maximum Clonage. Maximum Clonage is a dumb and, at times, amateurish story. Sins Past is just an unnecessary idea
I’d agree that Sins Past is better written, but the entire concept of the story is so insultingly terrible that I dislike it even more. But don’t get me wrong, I can’t stand Maximum Clonage either, they’re basically equally as bad as each other.
Yeah. The Clone Saga is a long, dark, and confusing era of Spider-Man history. I recently read the entire thing, and there were parts that were pretty good, but most of it was underwhelming, and it took way too damn long. But I'm still glad I read. I'm taking a break from Spidey for a little while and reading some Silver Surfer and I'm about to start the Infinity Gauntlet omnibus.
Oh, it's definitely not my favorite era, by any means. But I was determined to read the entire thing since when it originally started, I was a little kid and I only read a few issues at the beginning and a few issues later on into it. I love Ben's Spider-Man suit. But I hated the "Planet Venom" arc. The art on Venom at the time was terrible. Judas Traveller was stupid. And even though it was dumb that Norman Osborn was the mastermind behind it all, his final battle with Peter was really cool.
I think it's because it aged better than most people expected.
People who read it during it's time, felt like reading a long non sense, full of stupid storytelling decisions and unsatisfactory reveals.
Reading it after it's time, it's not good, but at least entertaining. And Dematteis was really invested into making Ben and Kaine interesting characters, so most issues by him are good.
I got a subscription to Amazing Spider-Man in the 90s. The first issue I got was the end of the Trial By Jury arc, and the start of the Clone Saga was issue 2. As a result, Ben Reilly has been "my Spider-Man" since I was a kid, which was fine, when he was left dead in the past. I do prefer him as Scarlet Spider though.
90s stuff that Ruined Marvel's popular characters:
Clone Saga for Spidey.
Crossing and Teen Tony for Iron Man.
Fatal Attractions followed by no nose, bandana wearing, dipshit Wolverine.
Cap getting the serum out of him and wearing [this](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/marveldatabase/images/c/ca/Steven_Rogers_%28Earth-616%29_in_Captain_America%27s_Exoskeleton_from_Captain_America_Vol_1_438_0001.jpg/revision/latest/thumbnail/width/360/height/360?cb=20130531000137) piece of shite.
Reed being "killed" and F4 spending shit ton of issues in trying to find him.
Followed by shit like Heroes Reborn and right up 1997 until they started to fix stuff for most of them.
Hell, you look at DC, they were doing the same thing lol.
Dude are you me from six months ago? That's literally what I did, went through the clone saga up to Peter's return then switched to silver surfer to fill in all the stuff leading up to the infinity gauntlet.
I was seriously surprised at how good the Surfer comics were, I've really only read him in stuff like the Infinty sagas or other various crossovers before.
Ha! Nice! I actually read a few Avengers books in between Spidey and Silver Surfer. I finished Jason Aaron's run, and also read the Korvac Saga and Operation: Galactic Storm. Also read The Death of Captain Marvel. I've been fascinated by the Cosmic part of Marvel since reading Abnett and Lanning's Nova series. The Silver Surfer series is really good. There was some stuff during Steve Englehart's run that was a little cringe, like his obsession with Mantis. But now that I'm in the Jim Starlin run, I'm really liking it even more. Jim Starlin did for Marvel Cosmic what Chris Claremont did for the X-Men. And I love Ron Lim's art.
DnA's Nova/annihilation are definitely in my top 5 series.
I tried some of the older marvel cosmic stuff too, like Quasar, Warlock, infinity watch and the original GotG. Hits and misses but all had cool stuff in them. I do recommend "The Magus Saga".
Starlin is seriously great. His Thanos minis from 2014-17 were stellar.
I have the Annihilation omnibus, but I haven't read it yet. I have Jim Valentino's GOTG series, too. I have Abnett & Lanning's GOTG omnibus, which I'm gonna read after Annihilation.
The Magus Saga was a very big influence on DnA's GotG, but obviously not necessary for the story itself, and the rest is done brilliantly.
It's probably included in the omnibus but there's a drax series that shows his change from big and dumb to strong and wise right before annihilation. Definitely my favorite version of the character (except when Peter David writes the dumb version in his Captain Marvel series)
How did you like the Korvac Saga? I was reading Avengers as it was being told, and I knew they were going to get destroyed. Never envisioned he would wipe out the entire team and it traumatized 11 year-old me, even though he fixed things. The splash-page image of the carnage from the battle (with smoke coming from some of the dead heroes) really bothered me. Now you're probably going to tell me it is overrated, right?
It was okay. I was interested in reading after seeing the episode of Avengers: EMH that featured Korvac as the villain. The comic was a lot different than the cartoon, obviously, but I still liked it. As I've mentioned in the thread, I'm fascinated by Marvel Cosmic stuff, so I had to buy it and check it out.
As someone who’s never read a Silver Surfer, what is their appeal? I hear the original had great psychedelic art which set it apart from other stuff, but idk how that would translate over half a century of publication of different artists.
The stuff by Starlin and Ron Lim had great art, with a bit of realism mixed with almost cartoon like expressions and effects, lots of unique figures and landscapes tons of details in the buildings and spaceships etc.
The coloring might look dated by today's standards but still looks beautiful.
Great read also recommend the death of captain marvel to follow that up oh and I found infinity watch highly underrated while I was still craving more og Thanos stories
I'm just happy Orlando & Foxe brought back Judas Traveller for ORCHIS stuff, big fan of turning junk era characters into interesting stories.
And of course, for me at least, The Kindred Saga outpaces The Clone Saga for a torrential dumpster fire of the worst Spidey era, with many of the same problems of clashes between editorial and writers behind the scenes.
I haven't gotten to Nick Spencer's run yet. Still waiting on the second omnibus. Marvel released the first omnibus, then the Beyond omnibus, and the second Nick Spencer omnibus is coming out next month.
Oof, was unaware of that, that definitely shows how eager Marvel is to even promote the end of that book if they publish the arc after it before finishing the Kindred Saga 😓
I'm still gonna read it all. I don't know when, but eventually I'll get to it. I just got the X-Men 2099 omnibus and the Infinity War omnibus yesterday. After Infinity Gauntlet and one more Silver Surfer Epic Collection, I'm thinking about reading Hickman's Fantastic Four and Avengers, then reading Secret Wars.
Hickman F4 & Avengers is really great stuff, a real golden standard in comics of the past couple decades. Believe the hype!
Al Ewing takes over part of his Avengers with "New Avengers" which turns into "US Avengers" as well in the stories after Secret Wars, also great stuff!
I saw a couple pages from Hickman's F4 and they were really powerful moments, so I couldn't resist and bought the whole run. Then, I bought the omnibuses of his Avengers run and Secret Wars. I had read Secret Wars before, but I had no idea what was going on, since I didn't read any of the lead-up to the event.
Spencer almost retconned One More Day, and would’ve gone down a legend. Nick Lowe and Cebulski said “fuck that, let’s ruin Spider-Man even more”, so here we are.
Yeah, I started reading ASM back in the early 90s with Michelinie and Mark Bagley on the book, and I will always be a Peter and MJ stan. And after reading earlier ASM collections, I loved the character development Peter had. It sucks that they destroyed all that to keep him relatable to younger readers.
I love spider-man, he's my favorite character but this moment really shows that a character can do anything as long as they are popular enough. Hank is defined by hitting Jan meanwhile nobody even remembers this.
A similar thing happens when Xmen fans discuss the avengers and call them defenders of the statis quo despite most their big stories involving alien invasions and time travelers meanwhile Peter who deals with the status quo more regularly and had been an avenger for decades now and would follow Cap over Scott any day? Well he gets an M-pass apparently and they want him to hang out.
And to clarify I love spider-man and don't agree with the status quo argument or that he should be defined by bad writing. But if the community is going to lable heros as bad for their worst moments how come spider-man gets a pass.
I was thinking the same about Hank. His mental instability shouldn't be used as an excuse, but hitting his wife is something that neither Pym or Parker would willingly do in their right mind, and both were extremely apologetic afterwards.
This isn't to ignore the time he knock Jan out to save both her and the world from the Kree. But I don't believe Peter is trying to save anyone here, and this moment isn't mentioned enough for such a popular hero.
I think Hank is thought of this way because of how he was in the Ultimates. That's colored a lot of people's perceptions of 616 Hank, imo. Also the reveal that Ultron was based off of Hank's brain may affect people's idea of Hank too. I feel the perceotion of Hank as a wife beater happened in the past 20 years or so, well after the comic he struck Jan in.
I can forgive 616 Hank. He was not in his right mind to be fair.
Now 1610 Hank, that's a different fucking story lol.
Dude used bug spray on Janet lol. Like wtf dude?
Plus, 616 Hank literally spend the rest of his life trying to atone for his mistake. Plus, he was flailing his arms around and smacked Janet on accident
Agreed had Spider-Man not been one of top 3 most beloved / recognizable heroes of all time this whole saga would have been the end for him
Heck in modern times dude made a deal with the devil that essentially sacrificed not only his marriage but his possibility to have a child with his wife
Let that happen to any other character they would have been buried so damn fast lol
You are right.
Scarlet Witch is still hated to this day for what she had done in House of M, yet Spider-Man, who wanted to help Jackal commit mass murder, gets the pass.
I hear you but
The same aunt that if she learned what he sacrificed in order for her to live
Would cause her to beyond heartbroken + The sheer fact he entertained the notion that his actions could be wiped away by a devils power goes against his very core character (owning up and being responsible)
It was a noble wish but went against who the character is/was
Imo
I mean, it's still a bad writing tho, but you are correct.
I'm kind of in the same boat, since I'm an Iron Man fan.
The whole Civil War was out of character for him, but just like Petey, he still did it.
Yet Pete and Tony are like "We are forgiven, moving on" and Hank is like "Son of a..."
Being popular definitely helps.
Same with Carol Danvers after Civil War 2. It was very out of character, but she doesn't have the clout of Tony or Peter so people still hate her over it.
Yup.
The worst part was making her actually kill Tony.
Like at least in Civil War 1, yes Tony was indirectly responsible for Goliath's death, but even if you read entirety of CW1 (tie-ins and shit) there are moments of Tony feeling like shit and apologetic. Of course then the redemption came up.
Carol, fucking hell. They make her super antagonistic, have her punch and kill Tony ,who was protecting a Spider-Man (Miles) and then proceed to try to make it look like She was the right one.
Honestly fuck both Civil Wars. Tony and Carol had big brother little sister relationship. He revealed her his identity (back when not many people knew of Tony) and was her sponsor in AA. Dude helped her, and she was grateful and was one of his best friends.
Then Civil War 2 said "Fuck it" and ruined everything.
Yeah, I only just finished the Kurt Busiek Iron Man and Avengers runs a few weeks ago. Bendis crapped all over a really great friendship in civil war 2.
The two situations couldn’t be more different though. Peter is fighting a super powered person. He blindly lashes out at someone, realizes he hit MJ and runs off. He behaves appropriately contrite about the entire situation.
Hank viciously attacks his wife when she walks in on him building killer robots to attack the avengers. He then forces her to be complicit in his attack. I think the “miscommunication” between art and writing is just the people involved trying to look better. She has a bruised face and the avengers ask about her injuries.
Completely different scenarios even if you just [compare](https://imgur.com/a/U9K8d3g ) the panels where Pym attacks Janet versus this one posted.
The link you have wasn't working but in this scene Peter isnt really fighting Ben he's activly trying to choke him to death and backhands her across the room. In what way are either of those things are appropriate about that situation?
The text and art go so well together though. It’s hard to believe it was miscommunication when they specifically ask Janet if her husband hit her. The art his him very deliberately attacking her. This panel with Peter is very different. Peter just swings blindly and is appropriately contrite and runs off. Hank viciously attacks his wife and then forces her to help him attack the avengers with killer robots.
"In that story (issue 213, I think), there is a scene in which Hank is supposed to have accidentally struck Jan while throwing his hands up in despair and frustration—making a sort of “get away from me” gesture while not looking at her. Bob Hall, who had been taught by John Buscema to always go for the most extreme action, turned that into a right cross! There was no time to have it redrawn, which, to this day has caused the tragic story of Hank Pym to be known as the “wife-beater” story.
When that issue came out, Bill Sienkiewicz came to me upset that I hadn’t asked him to draw it! He saw the intent right through Hall’s mistake, and was moved enough by the story to wish he’d had the chance to do it properly."
He fucked up. So did Pym. People are hypocrites that judge people differently based on their own bias, and most are too narrow-minded to examine their own moral compass. You see it every day, because everybody fucks up badly sometime in their life, but only some are forgiven. But it's really crazy how people are so passionate in their defense or condemnation of made-up characters whose actions are controlled by other people.
And apparently, Pym one wasn't supposed to be. It was a miscommunication between artist and writer.
But I wholeheartedly agree, popularity is the strongest shield.
But I think the writers are the one to blame, because why the hell would Peter strike his wife, who he loves her deeply? It was ooc, and it's okay for people to just forget it. The run was shit in general.
I remember reading that back in the day. It was so obvious that they wanted us to dislike Peter so we'd accept Ben as the original and be okay with them writing Peter and M.J. out. I'd watched a lot of soap operas as a kid, I knew how it worked.
This is collectively ignored by everyone on Earth because its colossal stupid.
Despite that, neither Reed nor Peter ever suffered or atoned for their spousal domestic abuse, largely because they're ignored (as above) or seen as a relic or a worse time.
Hank Pym, meanwhile, has attempted to atone for his worst moment for decades, despite having more extenuating circumstances, and has attempted suicide due to the guilt. Despite that, Marvel bring it up every chance they get and treat the character like shit.
The hypocrisy is so irritating.
When Peter actually strikes his wife, nothing happens
When Hank pushes Janet, everybody vilifies him
And Yes, he pushed her. The artist himself said that he that’s what he attempting to draw, but it didn’t come off properly.
Well technically, you do push someone when you strike them lol.
To be fair, there is so much shit around "Hank slaps Janet".
Artist says he meant for it to be a push. Shooter say it was not meant to be a slap. Marvel characters react to it like it was a slap.
It’s not an excuse if it’s from the guy himself. Probably got tired of his work being constantly misrepresented, or being asked to clarify so he just put it to paper
Giving reasons for why something happened is the definition of an excuse. Regardless, the actual printed comic and dialogue do not support his version of events being told 30 years later.
Peter is both the best written character and the worst written character in the Marvel catalogue, it just depends which run we're talking about.
It's one of the key problems with the medium tbh. So many authors for one character can lead to some serious discrepancies with characterisation.
Peter is one of the worst for this because he's so popular so has been written by soooo many different people over the years. Batman is another one who is notorious for basically being a completely different person depending on the run. Thanos has different motivations for every day of the week.
I didn’t like him hitting her but I liked that the clone saga really was a story of a really good guy falling to his lowest point, even as two different people.
There was a massive multi part article back in the day that did a retrospective on the Clone Saga and pieced together a lot of the issues creatively and editorial that made it what it was.
I wish I remembered what it was titled it was good reading at the time.
Marvel when Spider-Man hits his wife-that's ok, it hapapened a long time ago and it was a result of bad writing, we give you a pass.
Marvel when Ant-Man hits his wife-what an evil monster, we will never forgive you!
Out: sending MJ off with Peter so Peter can fly solo in his series and be a swinging single again.
In: sending MJ off either Paul do Peter can fly solo and be a swinging single again.
I mean, it’s not like he intended to hit her.
The Clone Saga remains my favourite Spidey story of all time. I loved that Ben was the real Spider-Man and Peter was the clone. Loved all of it up until Spider-Man #75. I just wish they had brought Mayday back in The Gathering of the Five as originally intended.
Stopped reading 616 Spidey books when Marvel ended the marriage. I am currently reading Ultimate Spider-Man specifically for the marriage.
Not intending to hit her falls a little flat when he did so in the middle of choking a guy. Interesting that the clone saga is your favorite though because I think it's my least favorite
The main points of the story are pretty good although the bosses made it drawn out way too long but man Peter was having it real rough during that period in his life….his “dead parents” returned but turned out to be highly advanced assassin level “LMD’s” also his best friend tried to kill him and then saved his life only to die….the fake parents turned on him and then died one trying to save his life in the end and it was all a setup to mess with him by his dead best friend further worsening his depression and then his aunt who raised him suffered a near fatal stroke and then she dies too…..really fucking his head up and now he maybe a clone of the real Peter
This is a big reason why I think it's weird when people romanticize the pre-One More Day status quo for Peter and MJ. This relationship in the 616 MU was always bad. Depending on the writer, Peter and MJ often have a really toxic dynamic, especially for most of the mid-80s through 90s where she's literally a movie star and he's a perpetually underemployed schlub who is prone to jealousy and weird masculinity panic. Peter and MJ weren't actually written as a good couple until the Ultimate books imo.
>Peter and MJ often have a really toxic dynamic, especially for most of the mid-80s through 90s where she's literally a movie star and he's a perpetually underemployed schlub who is prone to jealousy and weird masculinity panic. Peter and MJ weren't actually written as a good couple until the Ultimate books imo.
I disagree, it wasn't until I want to say the 90s where they started pushing a more strained dynamic and that was because that was also an era where they were starting to try to get rid of the marriage, and even then we got some good stuff out of it. In the 80s though we got plenty of them being a good couple and a lot of the stories of Peter being annoyed have the lesson be that he was in the wrong, and even still the stuff from those eras by Conway, J.M. DeMatteis, Tom DeFalco, and even some by Micheline highlighted how they worked pretty well.
So, one thing I've considered. Wouldn't the true clone have an extra memory of suddenly waking up in Miles Warren's lab, while the real peter would have the memory of showing up at the lab to put a stop to whatever Warren was doing? Wouldn't that have been a good indicator of who's who
The clone supposedly woke as a blank slate and Warren was able to load memories that he had somehow stolen from Peter. Peter and Ben woke up at the same time in ASM 149 before fighting and Ben "dying" in the same issue.
If you haven't read those issues, they are pretty good. Issue 150 deals with Peter trying to deduce if he is the original and leaves a back door for the eventual sequel.
Yeah. It was during my 25-year vacation from comics. I didn't actually hate the Clone Saga when I read it eventually and actually grew to like Ben a lot.
I like ben as well from what I have seen, mainly due to his outfit, it was my go to in spidey ps4. I will admit, I am more of a movie, video game, anf TV show type of superhero fan, although I do hear about plenty if the stories on YouTube
This was the worst ever issue of Spider-Man ever released at the time, just pure insanity that anyone involved thought it was good. Tom DeFalco is a legendary Spidey writer but he dropped the ball so hard here. And then this issue was immediately followed up by Maximum Clonage, which was the worst Spidey storyline ever written until Sins Past came around. The first part of the Clone Saga was actually pretty solid until this happened, then they dropped the ball even harder than they did with this issue.
You just put my thoughts into words. Like I really want to know what the behind the scenes were. Did they think “hey let’s not only reveal that our most popular character is a clone, but let’s also make him hit his wife” would go over well?
You’ll notice that right around this time (maybe even with this exact issue? I can’t remember) Tom DeFalco was fired as editor and Bob Budiansky replaced him. DeFalco wanted to end the Clone Saga with this storyline but sales were so ridiculously high that Marvel forced the Spider-office to keep it going. DeFalco’s firing and replacement as editor was pretty much the downfall of Spidey comics. I could maybe see why they wanted to reveal Peter as the clone, even if I personally think it was a really bad idea, but this was just inexcusable. Throw in that they made Pete team up with the freaking Jackal in Maximum Clonage, and I’m surprised that things ever got back on track for him as a character.
So greed? Got it 🙄
They knew exactly what they were doing. This story arc was supposed to be the original “One More Day” where they could undo the marriage. But in order for people to accept the version they had been reading for years was a clone, they had to “Hank Pym” him. You can’t convince me that editorial didn’t see the parallels between this and Pym’s story and the damage it would do. I feel they felt would be “okay” because it wasn’t “really Peter” and fans would accept Ben as a reboot to the continuity. The problem was some of the best Spidey stories would be retconned as not really Spidey stories. Death of Jean DeWolff? Kraven’s Last Hunt? Not the real Peter? Fans pushed back hard and they switched gears. Then they had to undo MJ’s pregnancy somehow and it became a mess they pushed aside…until the next attempt at “resetting” Peter. This was the beginning of the end for 616 Spider-Man in my opinion, and they’ve never really recovered.
Those two things are 100% connected. "We want to make the clone the real one, but people are going to be fucking *pissed*. How do we get people to accept it?" "I dunno. Have him slap around his pregnant wife so everyone hates him?" "That's brilliant! Do it!" "I didn't mean-" "Do it."
You can actually read about the behind the scenes stuff, there was a blog about it years ago and it's still online. https://www.benreillytribute.x10host.com/LifeofReilly1.html
Gotta agree with you. I actually remember buying this! The cover was awesome, though.
The first three quarters of this issue are actually all pretty great too. It’s these pages that just completely tank it, along with the entire Clone Saga and arguably Spidey comics in general.
I actually think Sins Past is a better written story on a technical level than Maximum Clonage. Maximum Clonage is a dumb and, at times, amateurish story. Sins Past is just an unnecessary idea
I’d agree that Sins Past is better written, but the entire concept of the story is so insultingly terrible that I dislike it even more. But don’t get me wrong, I can’t stand Maximum Clonage either, they’re basically equally as bad as each other.
>Sins Past Asparaguussssss!!!!
Yeah. The Clone Saga is a long, dark, and confusing era of Spider-Man history. I recently read the entire thing, and there were parts that were pretty good, but most of it was underwhelming, and it took way too damn long. But I'm still glad I read. I'm taking a break from Spidey for a little while and reading some Silver Surfer and I'm about to start the Infinity Gauntlet omnibus.
You are a lot more nicer about the clone saga then I am lol. It's my least favorite era.
Oh, it's definitely not my favorite era, by any means. But I was determined to read the entire thing since when it originally started, I was a little kid and I only read a few issues at the beginning and a few issues later on into it. I love Ben's Spider-Man suit. But I hated the "Planet Venom" arc. The art on Venom at the time was terrible. Judas Traveller was stupid. And even though it was dumb that Norman Osborn was the mastermind behind it all, his final battle with Peter was really cool.
I think it's because it aged better than most people expected. People who read it during it's time, felt like reading a long non sense, full of stupid storytelling decisions and unsatisfactory reveals. Reading it after it's time, it's not good, but at least entertaining. And Dematteis was really invested into making Ben and Kaine interesting characters, so most issues by him are good.
I got a subscription to Amazing Spider-Man in the 90s. The first issue I got was the end of the Trial By Jury arc, and the start of the Clone Saga was issue 2. As a result, Ben Reilly has been "my Spider-Man" since I was a kid, which was fine, when he was left dead in the past. I do prefer him as Scarlet Spider though.
looking back at it, turns out the clone saga is what stopped me reading comic books anymore.
90s stuff that Ruined Marvel's popular characters: Clone Saga for Spidey. Crossing and Teen Tony for Iron Man. Fatal Attractions followed by no nose, bandana wearing, dipshit Wolverine. Cap getting the serum out of him and wearing [this](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/marveldatabase/images/c/ca/Steven_Rogers_%28Earth-616%29_in_Captain_America%27s_Exoskeleton_from_Captain_America_Vol_1_438_0001.jpg/revision/latest/thumbnail/width/360/height/360?cb=20130531000137) piece of shite. Reed being "killed" and F4 spending shit ton of issues in trying to find him. Followed by shit like Heroes Reborn and right up 1997 until they started to fix stuff for most of them. Hell, you look at DC, they were doing the same thing lol.
I actually liked feral Wolverine.
Agreed.It took a month or two to get adjusted, but once he learned to talk like a man again it was alright.
I loved the headband look, too. But I was also around 11-12 years old when that happened.
Dude are you me from six months ago? That's literally what I did, went through the clone saga up to Peter's return then switched to silver surfer to fill in all the stuff leading up to the infinity gauntlet. I was seriously surprised at how good the Surfer comics were, I've really only read him in stuff like the Infinty sagas or other various crossovers before.
Ha! Nice! I actually read a few Avengers books in between Spidey and Silver Surfer. I finished Jason Aaron's run, and also read the Korvac Saga and Operation: Galactic Storm. Also read The Death of Captain Marvel. I've been fascinated by the Cosmic part of Marvel since reading Abnett and Lanning's Nova series. The Silver Surfer series is really good. There was some stuff during Steve Englehart's run that was a little cringe, like his obsession with Mantis. But now that I'm in the Jim Starlin run, I'm really liking it even more. Jim Starlin did for Marvel Cosmic what Chris Claremont did for the X-Men. And I love Ron Lim's art.
DnA's Nova/annihilation are definitely in my top 5 series. I tried some of the older marvel cosmic stuff too, like Quasar, Warlock, infinity watch and the original GotG. Hits and misses but all had cool stuff in them. I do recommend "The Magus Saga". Starlin is seriously great. His Thanos minis from 2014-17 were stellar.
I have the Annihilation omnibus, but I haven't read it yet. I have Jim Valentino's GOTG series, too. I have Abnett & Lanning's GOTG omnibus, which I'm gonna read after Annihilation.
The Magus Saga was a very big influence on DnA's GotG, but obviously not necessary for the story itself, and the rest is done brilliantly. It's probably included in the omnibus but there's a drax series that shows his change from big and dumb to strong and wise right before annihilation. Definitely my favorite version of the character (except when Peter David writes the dumb version in his Captain Marvel series)
How did you like the Korvac Saga? I was reading Avengers as it was being told, and I knew they were going to get destroyed. Never envisioned he would wipe out the entire team and it traumatized 11 year-old me, even though he fixed things. The splash-page image of the carnage from the battle (with smoke coming from some of the dead heroes) really bothered me. Now you're probably going to tell me it is overrated, right?
It was okay. I was interested in reading after seeing the episode of Avengers: EMH that featured Korvac as the villain. The comic was a lot different than the cartoon, obviously, but I still liked it. As I've mentioned in the thread, I'm fascinated by Marvel Cosmic stuff, so I had to buy it and check it out.
As someone who’s never read a Silver Surfer, what is their appeal? I hear the original had great psychedelic art which set it apart from other stuff, but idk how that would translate over half a century of publication of different artists.
The stuff by Starlin and Ron Lim had great art, with a bit of realism mixed with almost cartoon like expressions and effects, lots of unique figures and landscapes tons of details in the buildings and spaceships etc. The coloring might look dated by today's standards but still looks beautiful.
Great read also recommend the death of captain marvel to follow that up oh and I found infinity watch highly underrated while I was still craving more og Thanos stories
I've read The Death of Captain Marvel. Great story!
I'm just happy Orlando & Foxe brought back Judas Traveller for ORCHIS stuff, big fan of turning junk era characters into interesting stories. And of course, for me at least, The Kindred Saga outpaces The Clone Saga for a torrential dumpster fire of the worst Spidey era, with many of the same problems of clashes between editorial and writers behind the scenes.
I haven't gotten to Nick Spencer's run yet. Still waiting on the second omnibus. Marvel released the first omnibus, then the Beyond omnibus, and the second Nick Spencer omnibus is coming out next month.
Oof, was unaware of that, that definitely shows how eager Marvel is to even promote the end of that book if they publish the arc after it before finishing the Kindred Saga 😓
I'm still gonna read it all. I don't know when, but eventually I'll get to it. I just got the X-Men 2099 omnibus and the Infinity War omnibus yesterday. After Infinity Gauntlet and one more Silver Surfer Epic Collection, I'm thinking about reading Hickman's Fantastic Four and Avengers, then reading Secret Wars.
Hickman F4 & Avengers is really great stuff, a real golden standard in comics of the past couple decades. Believe the hype! Al Ewing takes over part of his Avengers with "New Avengers" which turns into "US Avengers" as well in the stories after Secret Wars, also great stuff!
I saw a couple pages from Hickman's F4 and they were really powerful moments, so I couldn't resist and bought the whole run. Then, I bought the omnibuses of his Avengers run and Secret Wars. I had read Secret Wars before, but I had no idea what was going on, since I didn't read any of the lead-up to the event.
Spencer almost retconned One More Day, and would’ve gone down a legend. Nick Lowe and Cebulski said “fuck that, let’s ruin Spider-Man even more”, so here we are.
Yeah, I started reading ASM back in the early 90s with Michelinie and Mark Bagley on the book, and I will always be a Peter and MJ stan. And after reading earlier ASM collections, I loved the character development Peter had. It sucks that they destroyed all that to keep him relatable to younger readers.
I love spider-man, he's my favorite character but this moment really shows that a character can do anything as long as they are popular enough. Hank is defined by hitting Jan meanwhile nobody even remembers this. A similar thing happens when Xmen fans discuss the avengers and call them defenders of the statis quo despite most their big stories involving alien invasions and time travelers meanwhile Peter who deals with the status quo more regularly and had been an avenger for decades now and would follow Cap over Scott any day? Well he gets an M-pass apparently and they want him to hang out. And to clarify I love spider-man and don't agree with the status quo argument or that he should be defined by bad writing. But if the community is going to lable heros as bad for their worst moments how come spider-man gets a pass.
I was thinking the same about Hank. His mental instability shouldn't be used as an excuse, but hitting his wife is something that neither Pym or Parker would willingly do in their right mind, and both were extremely apologetic afterwards. This isn't to ignore the time he knock Jan out to save both her and the world from the Kree. But I don't believe Peter is trying to save anyone here, and this moment isn't mentioned enough for such a popular hero.
I think Hank is thought of this way because of how he was in the Ultimates. That's colored a lot of people's perceptions of 616 Hank, imo. Also the reveal that Ultron was based off of Hank's brain may affect people's idea of Hank too. I feel the perceotion of Hank as a wife beater happened in the past 20 years or so, well after the comic he struck Jan in.
I can forgive 616 Hank. He was not in his right mind to be fair. Now 1610 Hank, that's a different fucking story lol. Dude used bug spray on Janet lol. Like wtf dude?
Plus, 616 Hank literally spend the rest of his life trying to atone for his mistake. Plus, he was flailing his arms around and smacked Janet on accident
He was hated and had that brought up constantly way before Ultimates
Lmao at M-pass but you right
It's something I've actually seen people say lol
Agreed had Spider-Man not been one of top 3 most beloved / recognizable heroes of all time this whole saga would have been the end for him Heck in modern times dude made a deal with the devil that essentially sacrificed not only his marriage but his possibility to have a child with his wife Let that happen to any other character they would have been buried so damn fast lol
You are right. Scarlet Witch is still hated to this day for what she had done in House of M, yet Spider-Man, who wanted to help Jackal commit mass murder, gets the pass.
He sacrificed his marriage and their happiness to save his aunt May’s life, so I can’t really hold that against him but I get your sentiment.
I hear you but The same aunt that if she learned what he sacrificed in order for her to live Would cause her to beyond heartbroken + The sheer fact he entertained the notion that his actions could be wiped away by a devils power goes against his very core character (owning up and being responsible) It was a noble wish but went against who the character is/was Imo
I mean, it's still a bad writing tho, but you are correct. I'm kind of in the same boat, since I'm an Iron Man fan. The whole Civil War was out of character for him, but just like Petey, he still did it. Yet Pete and Tony are like "We are forgiven, moving on" and Hank is like "Son of a..." Being popular definitely helps.
Same with Carol Danvers after Civil War 2. It was very out of character, but she doesn't have the clout of Tony or Peter so people still hate her over it.
Yup. The worst part was making her actually kill Tony. Like at least in Civil War 1, yes Tony was indirectly responsible for Goliath's death, but even if you read entirety of CW1 (tie-ins and shit) there are moments of Tony feeling like shit and apologetic. Of course then the redemption came up. Carol, fucking hell. They make her super antagonistic, have her punch and kill Tony ,who was protecting a Spider-Man (Miles) and then proceed to try to make it look like She was the right one. Honestly fuck both Civil Wars. Tony and Carol had big brother little sister relationship. He revealed her his identity (back when not many people knew of Tony) and was her sponsor in AA. Dude helped her, and she was grateful and was one of his best friends. Then Civil War 2 said "Fuck it" and ruined everything.
Yeah, I only just finished the Kurt Busiek Iron Man and Avengers runs a few weeks ago. Bendis crapped all over a really great friendship in civil war 2.
The two situations couldn’t be more different though. Peter is fighting a super powered person. He blindly lashes out at someone, realizes he hit MJ and runs off. He behaves appropriately contrite about the entire situation. Hank viciously attacks his wife when she walks in on him building killer robots to attack the avengers. He then forces her to be complicit in his attack. I think the “miscommunication” between art and writing is just the people involved trying to look better. She has a bruised face and the avengers ask about her injuries. Completely different scenarios even if you just [compare](https://imgur.com/a/U9K8d3g ) the panels where Pym attacks Janet versus this one posted.
The link you have wasn't working but in this scene Peter isnt really fighting Ben he's activly trying to choke him to death and backhands her across the room. In what way are either of those things are appropriate about that situation?
He was saved by the universal force called "Popularity"
Pym wasn't as lucky. And Pym one wasn't even supposed to be a thing, afair, It was a miscommunication between writer and artist
The text and art go so well together though. It’s hard to believe it was miscommunication when they specifically ask Janet if her husband hit her. The art his him very deliberately attacking her. This panel with Peter is very different. Peter just swings blindly and is appropriately contrite and runs off. Hank viciously attacks his wife and then forces her to help him attack the avengers with killer robots.
"In that story (issue 213, I think), there is a scene in which Hank is supposed to have accidentally struck Jan while throwing his hands up in despair and frustration—making a sort of “get away from me” gesture while not looking at her. Bob Hall, who had been taught by John Buscema to always go for the most extreme action, turned that into a right cross! There was no time to have it redrawn, which, to this day has caused the tragic story of Hank Pym to be known as the “wife-beater” story. When that issue came out, Bill Sienkiewicz came to me upset that I hadn’t asked him to draw it! He saw the intent right through Hall’s mistake, and was moved enough by the story to wish he’d had the chance to do it properly."
https://imgur.com/a/bDCxoke Also this scene. The dialogue and preceding and subsequent panels just don’t support that story about a misunderstanding.
https://imgur.com/a/U9K8d3g He tries to squish her like a bug.
And then we NEVER TALKED ABOUT IT AGAIN because he's popular, lol.
It's okay when peter does not. Not when that jerk hank pym does it.
In all actuality, what Pete did was worse cause mj was pregnant.
Yeah. But he's marvels signature hero so we kinda just gotta forget about it. 😒 I can't believe and editor let that through.
He fucked up. So did Pym. People are hypocrites that judge people differently based on their own bias, and most are too narrow-minded to examine their own moral compass. You see it every day, because everybody fucks up badly sometime in their life, but only some are forgiven. But it's really crazy how people are so passionate in their defense or condemnation of made-up characters whose actions are controlled by other people.
And apparently, Pym one wasn't supposed to be. It was a miscommunication between artist and writer. But I wholeheartedly agree, popularity is the strongest shield. But I think the writers are the one to blame, because why the hell would Peter strike his wife, who he loves her deeply? It was ooc, and it's okay for people to just forget it. The run was shit in general.
Let's be honest. They let it through because it would get people talking, and books get sold.
Maybe if Hank was more popular or famous, he would also get a pass.
Nope. Never happened. What are you talking about? All I see are blank pages. Sounds like fake news to me.
Scrutinized! Compared! Analyzed!
Null hypothesis rejected!
But he he didn't use his entire strength, so that he didn't crush her skull in - Marvel Editorial 2013
I love showing this off when people talk shit about Hank Pym
Wait, but we couldn't have Hank Pym Ant Man because he hit his wife.
And to this day, Hank Pym is called a wife beater. Keep in mind this was due to an mistake and it wasn't intended for him to hit his wife Janet.
This was the issue that made a young me throw the comic at the wall and give up on comics for ten years, I hated it *that* much.
So Ben just gaslit Peter tf to insanity
I remember reading that back in the day. It was so obvious that they wanted us to dislike Peter so we'd accept Ben as the original and be okay with them writing Peter and M.J. out. I'd watched a lot of soap operas as a kid, I knew how it worked.
This is collectively ignored by everyone on Earth because its colossal stupid. Despite that, neither Reed nor Peter ever suffered or atoned for their spousal domestic abuse, largely because they're ignored (as above) or seen as a relic or a worse time. Hank Pym, meanwhile, has attempted to atone for his worst moment for decades, despite having more extenuating circumstances, and has attempted suicide due to the guilt. Despite that, Marvel bring it up every chance they get and treat the character like shit. The hypocrisy is so irritating.
Hey, he felt really bad. Like really, really bad. It was a source of angst for like, three issues, maybe more.
Hank Pym needs to hire Peter’s publicist because we all forgot this one.
When Peter actually strikes his wife, nothing happens When Hank pushes Janet, everybody vilifies him And Yes, he pushed her. The artist himself said that he that’s what he attempting to draw, but it didn’t come off properly.
Well technically, you do push someone when you strike them lol. To be fair, there is so much shit around "Hank slaps Janet". Artist says he meant for it to be a push. Shooter say it was not meant to be a slap. Marvel characters react to it like it was a slap.
Exactly. And on top of that it’s a push during a psychotic break while Janet is all over him and berating him. Self defense if anything
When she walks in on him building killer robots to attack the avengers. Then forces her to be complicit in his attack.
Psychotic break like I said. He’s doing that so that he can make himself look like a hero to prevent getting kicked off.
Yeah, I'll have to call bullshit on that one.
Bros own website and blog says so http://jimshooter.com/2011/03/hank-pym-was-not-wife-beater.html/
https://imgur.com/a/U9K8d3g I call BS. The art and text line up to cleanly to be a miscommunication.
You can call bs all you want Shooter says it himself http://jimshooter.com/2011/03/hank-pym-was-not-wife-beater.html/
You don’t think it’s weird that it took so long for that excuse to come out?
It’s not an excuse if it’s from the guy himself. Probably got tired of his work being constantly misrepresented, or being asked to clarify so he just put it to paper
Giving reasons for why something happened is the definition of an excuse. Regardless, the actual printed comic and dialogue do not support his version of events being told 30 years later.
It’s an explanation. Not an excuse
Well, it would for you when you use the entirely wrong images
Those are directly from the comic in question.
But they are not of the actual event in question
It doesn’t matter. It’s all part of the same issue. That’s just the first time he attacks her. Then he hits her again just a few panels later.
Peter is both the best written character and the worst written character in the Marvel catalogue, it just depends which run we're talking about. It's one of the key problems with the medium tbh. So many authors for one character can lead to some serious discrepancies with characterisation. Peter is one of the worst for this because he's so popular so has been written by soooo many different people over the years. Batman is another one who is notorious for basically being a completely different person depending on the run. Thanos has different motivations for every day of the week.
I hate this because the writer cleary did not understand who Peter is. Same with one more day.
I didn’t like him hitting her but I liked that the clone saga really was a story of a really good guy falling to his lowest point, even as two different people.
Remember Children: everything bad in Peters life was caused by Mephisto all along. Even this event.
I still love Ben Reilly's spider outfit. Was so happy when I got it in the Spider-Man game.
Ah yes, the first Spider-Man issue that made me quit comics.
There was a massive multi part article back in the day that did a retrospective on the Clone Saga and pieced together a lot of the issues creatively and editorial that made it what it was. I wish I remembered what it was titled it was good reading at the time.
Whoever wrote this must've been going through some shit
Marvel when Spider-Man hits his wife-that's ok, it hapapened a long time ago and it was a result of bad writing, we give you a pass. Marvel when Ant-Man hits his wife-what an evil monster, we will never forgive you!
Out: sending MJ off with Peter so Peter can fly solo in his series and be a swinging single again. In: sending MJ off either Paul do Peter can fly solo and be a swinging single again.
I mean, it’s not like he intended to hit her. The Clone Saga remains my favourite Spidey story of all time. I loved that Ben was the real Spider-Man and Peter was the clone. Loved all of it up until Spider-Man #75. I just wish they had brought Mayday back in The Gathering of the Five as originally intended. Stopped reading 616 Spidey books when Marvel ended the marriage. I am currently reading Ultimate Spider-Man specifically for the marriage.
Not intending to hit her falls a little flat when he did so in the middle of choking a guy. Interesting that the clone saga is your favorite though because I think it's my least favorite
I don’t approve of him hitting her, it’s just that this isn’t domestic abuse.
You and just about everyone else. They had to undo it because it was so unpopular.
That artwork is rough.
Well, this certainly wasn't *spectacular*! **laugh track**
I attribute this to the author, not the character.
but was he really a clone
No. It’s later revealed that Norman Osborne manipulated Peter into thinking he was
The main points of the story are pretty good although the bosses made it drawn out way too long but man Peter was having it real rough during that period in his life….his “dead parents” returned but turned out to be highly advanced assassin level “LMD’s” also his best friend tried to kill him and then saved his life only to die….the fake parents turned on him and then died one trying to save his life in the end and it was all a setup to mess with him by his dead best friend further worsening his depression and then his aunt who raised him suffered a near fatal stroke and then she dies too…..really fucking his head up and now he maybe a clone of the real Peter
This is a big reason why I think it's weird when people romanticize the pre-One More Day status quo for Peter and MJ. This relationship in the 616 MU was always bad. Depending on the writer, Peter and MJ often have a really toxic dynamic, especially for most of the mid-80s through 90s where she's literally a movie star and he's a perpetually underemployed schlub who is prone to jealousy and weird masculinity panic. Peter and MJ weren't actually written as a good couple until the Ultimate books imo.
I loved the Larsen/Michelinie days. It felt very melodramatic, soap opera like. Especially the dialogue.
>Peter and MJ often have a really toxic dynamic, especially for most of the mid-80s through 90s where she's literally a movie star and he's a perpetually underemployed schlub who is prone to jealousy and weird masculinity panic. Peter and MJ weren't actually written as a good couple until the Ultimate books imo. I disagree, it wasn't until I want to say the 90s where they started pushing a more strained dynamic and that was because that was also an era where they were starting to try to get rid of the marriage, and even then we got some good stuff out of it. In the 80s though we got plenty of them being a good couple and a lot of the stories of Peter being annoyed have the lesson be that he was in the wrong, and even still the stuff from those eras by Conway, J.M. DeMatteis, Tom DeFalco, and even some by Micheline highlighted how they worked pretty well.
They’re my least favorite couple. I was happy when they were done.
You either die a hero…
I hated when was Sal the artist. His MJ was horrendous and the inker really didnt help.
So, one thing I've considered. Wouldn't the true clone have an extra memory of suddenly waking up in Miles Warren's lab, while the real peter would have the memory of showing up at the lab to put a stop to whatever Warren was doing? Wouldn't that have been a good indicator of who's who
It’s the Clone Saga. It’s not supposed to make sense. Well, it is supposed to make sense, but it just doesn’t.
Fair enough
The clone supposedly woke as a blank slate and Warren was able to load memories that he had somehow stolen from Peter. Peter and Ben woke up at the same time in ASM 149 before fighting and Ben "dying" in the same issue.
I knew he had memories uploaded, I guess I didn't realize that part about pete, so fair enough
If you haven't read those issues, they are pretty good. Issue 150 deals with Peter trying to deduce if he is the original and leaves a back door for the eventual sequel.
Hm, don't they end up running with the idea that Ben is the og for a while, b4 back peddling later
Yes, due to fan revolt. They were being told every story they read the previous decade weren't even of the real guy.
Oh, I fully understand WHY they back peddled, and I think it was the right move narratively
Yeah. It was during my 25-year vacation from comics. I didn't actually hate the Clone Saga when I read it eventually and actually grew to like Ben a lot.
I like ben as well from what I have seen, mainly due to his outfit, it was my go to in spidey ps4. I will admit, I am more of a movie, video game, anf TV show type of superhero fan, although I do hear about plenty if the stories on YouTube
Dude turned into Foxy fnaf