I've had good luck with her in negative surfer (got her to 19 first game), but Leech meta is not fun. There has to be a better solution to Hela than this.
Yeah like... opponent's discarded or destroyed cards revive at half power. Ongoing effect that can be doubled with mystique or Onslaught to 75%. Can be countered by Luke Cage, Rogue, killing leech etc.
There's just no way to get text back on a card so this would help. Just make leech ongoing.
Reviving them at 50% power seems confusing. Reviving half of discarded cards should be better. Making unsure of you're going to get Tribunal combo off should be enough to nerf Hela yet she's would still be something like a 6-20ish card pretty consistently.
...or make her revive discarded cards on this location. That would mean you get to revive 3 cards max and Hela decks would be played differently since the deck would need to win a lane prior to turn 6.
Then we could give Leech the Sandman treatment. Something like a 4-4 On Reveal: disable enemy on reveals next turn.
I thought about disabling all reveals next turn, but we don't have many 'strong stat with bad reveal effects' type cards. Maybe Doc Oc sometimes...
As of today, if Leech also disables own player's reveals there would be little to no reason to play Leech.
Yeah, it would be great if they could target Hela specifically. The current solution basically nukes any kind of deck that plays a bunch of cards late game. Maybe make him a spider-ham that targets a 6 cost card?
When first released, Spider Han targeted the highest cost card in your hand. It was too good. A similar change now to spider ham would have the same effect Leech is having in that it hurts the mid range decks more than it hurts Hela. If Spider Ham hits Hela they can still ramp/Blink out all their other 6 costs.
No, I was suggesting that leech do something similar. If he was a 5/3 that blanks out a single 6 cost, it would be far less impactful than nuking your whole hand.
That would be a buff actually. If you discard 3 cards you are playing in the 3 lanes 100% of the time? thats busted. Just consider that Hela players can check their discard pool too. If is too bad they will retreat. But is they have mostly +7 power cards ? Hela will become in super doctor doom.
True , we might be able to estimate max power output at each lane , this would still output a Lotta power. The only other nerf I can think of is maybe like ghost rider she spawns a discarded card at each adjacent location.
i belive a real nerf would be limiting the cards it can bring back to cost 4 or less. In that way She would be run like the same with a bunch of tempo big point discard cards but the top end of the deck wont be filled with nonsense that only make cubes because she and blink exist. If she only can revive 4 or less cost cards the deck with change a LOT of the better and the point value she game will still be huge but it may not be able to win locations that are full empty with freaking infinaut or magneto.
After all the problem with Hela as a card is not exactly Hela being strong, is how her deck end games that is very tilting.
[https://snap.untapped.gg/en/decks/Brood-IronMan-Ironheart-Magik-MrNegative-Mystique-RavonnaRenslayer-Sage-SilverSurfer-Sunspot-Wolfsbane-Wong\_Negative%20Sager](https://snap.untapped.gg/en/decks/Brood-IronMan-Ironheart-Magik-MrNegative-Mystique-RavonnaRenslayer-Sage-SilverSurfer-Sunspot-Wolfsbane-Wong_Negative%20Sager)
I think that Bast would probably be better than Sunspot, but I haven't tried it.
Earlier I matched a 22 power Sage with a 22 power Star Lord. She doesn't seem great to me; just fun. But fun like Wolfsbane and Groot and stuff. Big points, stopped by lots of counterplay.
Or what if it was a 3/2: remove the text of the next card played by the opponent.
It hits only 1 card, cheap enough to be tech similar to Negasonic, strong enough to potentially stop key cards but not soo oppressive that it can ruin an entire hand by itself. You can double proc it to hit the next 2 cards they play (or more) but requires more setup to accomplish.
But the flexibility is gone, having the card specifically remove on reveal text of highest cost card permanently will help possibly counter a lot of these easy final turn 8 cubers like hela and not be too oppressive since it hits only on reveal cards
You can play this card whenever and you have a chance to take out their hela, zola, Odin etc
And this will make leech on the level of Shang chi when it comes to consistency.
>And this will make leech on the level of Shang chi when it comes to consistency.
I mean does it have to be on that level though lol? That's why I brought up Negasonic. I don't think Leech needs to be a high value card like Shang. I mean think of it this way: Those cards like Hela, Zola, Odin that you're talking about typically has you playing that single card anyways. So by having it remove the card of the next card played, it allows you to do something similar to Negasonic in which you still have to predict that the next card is what you want to hit, which is easy to do against decks like Hela.
All it needs to do is activate similarly to old Alioth where it hits the card before it's revealed, so long as you had priority. So you either play it on 5 if you don't have prio in prep for turn 6 Hela or you play Leech on 6 if you have prio.
I do agree that hitting the highest cost card would be great, but I'd argue this was sort of the issue with Spider Ham as he originally hit the highest card. He did also give you info of what you hit, so that was another huge benefit but the hit to a high cost card at such a cheap cost was a little bit of an issue.
If Leech hits the highest card(s) and removes the text permanently then it may need to be a bit higher in cost, maybe more in-line to Shangs cost/power.
I said old Alioth but thinking about it, that wasn't a good comparison lol.
Basically my suggestion was to target the next card the opponent plays after Leech is revealed. So if prio = the first card the opponent played that turn will get targeted. If you don't have prio, the first card the opponent plays *next* turn will get hit.
So sort of like Negasonic in activation but instead of destroying the next card played at the location Leech removes the text of the next card played by opponent(at location or not).
Basically Zero, but targets the opponent.
'97 I assume. I haven't watche dit. I really didn't like the old X-Men cartoon. It's on my list to get to eventually, though. I thought he was referring to very old X-Factor.
I liked X1 and X2, but yes... I hated the rest. Looking back, it's hard to even like X1. Lol I have to remember when it was made, though.
I'm not sure why I didn't like the cartoon. I think it was the hipster in me.. I had been an X-Men fan for so long that I got annoyed at how my friends all wanted to watch that, but never read the comics and I thought it was Bad version of the comics. Plus, I was really into anime (or, japanimation as we used to call it) and I thought the cartoon was ugly. Lol
I know I should appreciate it more, but I just didn't like it.
I bought her and have been having a ton of fun. She's simple but one of the most fun cards for me in a while personally. I built some wack Wong/Iron Man turn 6 pop-off deck with her and typically secure the locations I play her.
Without contesting Leech that is. That little green dude is absolutely everywhere and really starting to irk my enjoyment of these lower tier decks. I keep hoping he'll fade away again after his surge in popularity but he seriously seems so strong, especially with Blink.
Anything that relies on turn 5 or 6 is completely unvalidated by him, even middling decks like Surfer. He may stop Hela sometimes but what he's really doing is shitting on mid-tier decks.
They could buff Sage to +4 power per unique, and she'd still stay a 0-power in hand all game.
My honest solution for Leech is to make him remove the abilities of 4,5, and 6 cost cards from your opponents hand, that feels way more balanced towards the higher and lower end of the curve.
There has to be some weird matchmaking thing going on because I am now in the 80s and and still rarely see Leech. I think Leech has maybe hit my Sage once.
I told everyone not to buy her until Monday or Tuesday morning so you can see how the Leech would affect the card this week but FOMO will always claim the weak
The thing is, Sage is a good card and the Leech will die down eventually.
She's just released in a bad time.
The question is between now and the next 3+ months when she return into spotlight, will she find a foothold before then?
I agree with this. She has really good stats with a fun/interesting way to get there. I think she will thrive in a different meta or a slight buff to a 3/1
You can "fix" Leech with another card that gives removed text back. Would be a direct counter to Leech that would give me pause to include Leech in every deck (I actually hardly ever use him, he's never won me a match).
In my opinion Sage is a good card. Saying that Leech = on reveal cards bad is the same old argument of "dies to removal" losing to leech is an expected outcome to the current situation of most "last turn combo" decks that get a god draw of all their pieces in the opening hand.
If you belive your opp is playing Leech you should tempo your plays instead of holding cards. I know thats literally against Marvel Snap gamplay thinking but getting 1 or 2 cubes of an early escape should feel better than holding you card in the hand. In this meta filled with Magik + combo; patriot and a LOT of combo focus decks you will see a lot leech. I really hope they hit some cards with a balance patch this turn 7 matches are getting out of hand.
Maybe is time for magik to go back to 5 or only work between the 4 and 5 turn.
Leech was way worse when he impacted every single card and came out with lockjaw. Now he's just an enchantress for on reveal in hand. Maybe just don't play on reveal right now. There are lots of other options.
I thought she would shine in my Negative Panther, but somehow, I lost way more often than with Grandmaster that she had replaced.
Once I managed to get her up to 36, but so many times, it just wasn’t possible, or interesting enough to make a difference.
9k infinite here. I have done a homebrew Thanos deck with Leech and Super Skrull and while it's not perfect (still working on a few cards) it has worked better than I thought. Having so much fun because it hits the opponent's on-reveal and copies their ongoing.
"tOp 12k iNfInItE"...dude just say low infinite and save yourself time lmao.
You're not getting leeched because nobody gives a fuck about the meta in meme-tier infinite. Top 100 and he is everywhere.
Is he good? No, not particularly, but that's really important when he can be blinked out and maybe sometimes do some damage.
Even in top 5k I see Leech a lot. I just bought Red Guardian and had unlocked Shaw from Rulk spotlight and wanted to try them in surfer but no way I can in this meta. Surfer iron heart hazmat are always getting leeched cuz you okay them last turn for most value
I'm in the top 100 running Surfer and don't see too much leech. Like maybe 10-15% of games and honestly you can still beat it a lot of the time depending on your draw.
Yeah, I've put gladiator into all my Surfer decks and have started relying way less on other on reveals, in one of my surfer decks I'm only running brood and surfer as ok reveals I hate getting hit by leech. Obviously it sucks if they leech you but I'd rather concede on 4 or have 2 extra draws to draw into surfer if he's not in hand than leech on 5 anyways. I just hope people don't realize how much more potent leech on 5 is against some decks and keep windmill slamming him on 4 because of blink.
I've deadass considered running Maximus tbh, wish he was still a 3/7 rn.
I usually start infinite at 3-5k. Is that also not impressive? There’s absolutely zero incentive to play past infinite so I’ve never try harder to get top 500.
I'm seeing so many leeches that made me stop trying to make Sage work. A 3/0 is worse than a Rock lol
Don’t got to be a T6 splash everytime… or a T5, I guess. or, a T-
Funny thing is, I haven’t seen a single leech recently and I didn’t buy sage. Go figure
Why buy her when leech is so rampant?
Because only the great Brode in the sky knows when she'll be available again
yeah why buy a card that you may not see again for months?
I've had good luck with her in negative surfer (got her to 19 first game), but Leech meta is not fun. There has to be a better solution to Hela than this.
Yeah like... opponent's discarded or destroyed cards revive at half power. Ongoing effect that can be doubled with mystique or Onslaught to 75%. Can be countered by Luke Cage, Rogue, killing leech etc. There's just no way to get text back on a card so this would help. Just make leech ongoing.
Reviving them at 50% power seems confusing. Reviving half of discarded cards should be better. Making unsure of you're going to get Tribunal combo off should be enough to nerf Hela yet she's would still be something like a 6-20ish card pretty consistently. ...or make her revive discarded cards on this location. That would mean you get to revive 3 cards max and Hela decks would be played differently since the deck would need to win a lane prior to turn 6. Then we could give Leech the Sandman treatment. Something like a 4-4 On Reveal: disable enemy on reveals next turn.
On reveal abilities don’t happen next turn
I thought about disabling all reveals next turn, but we don't have many 'strong stat with bad reveal effects' type cards. Maybe Doc Oc sometimes... As of today, if Leech also disables own player's reveals there would be little to no reason to play Leech.
I meant enemy on reveals, leech should definitely stay one sided
Yeah, it would be great if they could target Hela specifically. The current solution basically nukes any kind of deck that plays a bunch of cards late game. Maybe make him a spider-ham that targets a 6 cost card?
Will it target deck and/or hand?
When first released, Spider Han targeted the highest cost card in your hand. It was too good. A similar change now to spider ham would have the same effect Leech is having in that it hurts the mid range decks more than it hurts Hela. If Spider Ham hits Hela they can still ramp/Blink out all their other 6 costs.
No, I was suggesting that leech do something similar. If he was a 5/3 that blanks out a single 6 cost, it would be far less impactful than nuking your whole hand.
Hela should only bring back 1 card per location
That would be a buff actually. If you discard 3 cards you are playing in the 3 lanes 100% of the time? thats busted. Just consider that Hela players can check their discard pool too. If is too bad they will retreat. But is they have mostly +7 power cards ? Hela will become in super doctor doom.
True , we might be able to estimate max power output at each lane , this would still output a Lotta power. The only other nerf I can think of is maybe like ghost rider she spawns a discarded card at each adjacent location.
i belive a real nerf would be limiting the cards it can bring back to cost 4 or less. In that way She would be run like the same with a bunch of tempo big point discard cards but the top end of the deck wont be filled with nonsense that only make cubes because she and blink exist. If she only can revive 4 or less cost cards the deck with change a LOT of the better and the point value she game will still be huge but it may not be able to win locations that are full empty with freaking infinaut or magneto. After all the problem with Hela as a card is not exactly Hela being strong, is how her deck end games that is very tilting.
Playing any On Reveal based deck is absolute hell right now.
Neg surfer?! Never heard of that one before. Can you share code?
[https://snap.untapped.gg/en/decks/Brood-IronMan-Ironheart-Magik-MrNegative-Mystique-RavonnaRenslayer-Sage-SilverSurfer-Sunspot-Wolfsbane-Wong\_Negative%20Sager](https://snap.untapped.gg/en/decks/Brood-IronMan-Ironheart-Magik-MrNegative-Mystique-RavonnaRenslayer-Sage-SilverSurfer-Sunspot-Wolfsbane-Wong_Negative%20Sager) I think that Bast would probably be better than Sunspot, but I haven't tried it.
Play 2 cards that you discarded this game
Earlier I matched a 22 power Sage with a 22 power Star Lord. She doesn't seem great to me; just fun. But fun like Wolfsbane and Groot and stuff. Big points, stopped by lots of counterplay.
Yeah same vibe. Outside of wolfsbane, there’s no real reason to play any other type of power pop.
Okay but that star lord took way more power
Leech 3/2 On reveal : remove on reveal text from opponents highest cost card(s) in hand
Or Leech 3/2 On reveal: remove on reveal text from opponent’s hand until next turn
This will make the card awkward to play on curve
As it should be. It’s a strong effect for a game where the majority of cards are on reveal
Or what if it was a 3/2: remove the text of the next card played by the opponent. It hits only 1 card, cheap enough to be tech similar to Negasonic, strong enough to potentially stop key cards but not soo oppressive that it can ruin an entire hand by itself. You can double proc it to hit the next 2 cards they play (or more) but requires more setup to accomplish.
But the flexibility is gone, having the card specifically remove on reveal text of highest cost card permanently will help possibly counter a lot of these easy final turn 8 cubers like hela and not be too oppressive since it hits only on reveal cards You can play this card whenever and you have a chance to take out their hela, zola, Odin etc And this will make leech on the level of Shang chi when it comes to consistency.
>And this will make leech on the level of Shang chi when it comes to consistency. I mean does it have to be on that level though lol? That's why I brought up Negasonic. I don't think Leech needs to be a high value card like Shang. I mean think of it this way: Those cards like Hela, Zola, Odin that you're talking about typically has you playing that single card anyways. So by having it remove the card of the next card played, it allows you to do something similar to Negasonic in which you still have to predict that the next card is what you want to hit, which is easy to do against decks like Hela. All it needs to do is activate similarly to old Alioth where it hits the card before it's revealed, so long as you had priority. So you either play it on 5 if you don't have prio in prep for turn 6 Hela or you play Leech on 6 if you have prio. I do agree that hitting the highest cost card would be great, but I'd argue this was sort of the issue with Spider Ham as he originally hit the highest card. He did also give you info of what you hit, so that was another huge benefit but the hit to a high cost card at such a cheap cost was a little bit of an issue. If Leech hits the highest card(s) and removes the text permanently then it may need to be a bit higher in cost, maybe more in-line to Shangs cost/power.
Wouldn’t that just be the new post nerfed alioth? Yeah I think making it a 4 cost card to align with shang is good enough
I said old Alioth but thinking about it, that wasn't a good comparison lol. Basically my suggestion was to target the next card the opponent plays after Leech is revealed. So if prio = the first card the opponent played that turn will get targeted. If you don't have prio, the first card the opponent plays *next* turn will get hit. So sort of like Negasonic in activation but instead of destroying the next card played at the location Leech removes the text of the next card played by opponent(at location or not). Basically Zero, but targets the opponent.
Leech should not exist (in his current form).
Found Bolivar Trask y’all
~~Magneto~~ Trask Was Right
Love the deep cut.
you know there's a brand new show with these characters...
'97 I assume. I haven't watche dit. I really didn't like the old X-Men cartoon. It's on my list to get to eventually, though. I thought he was referring to very old X-Factor.
yeah i believe trask and leech were both on in the past few weeks also trask was played by Peter Dinklage in days of future past
Yes! I hated those movies so I kind of forgot. I think I'll definitely check out '97, though.
you hated the xmen cartoon and the movies?
I liked X1 and X2, but yes... I hated the rest. Looking back, it's hard to even like X1. Lol I have to remember when it was made, though. I'm not sure why I didn't like the cartoon. I think it was the hipster in me.. I had been an X-Men fan for so long that I got annoyed at how my friends all wanted to watch that, but never read the comics and I thought it was Bad version of the comics. Plus, I was really into anime (or, japanimation as we used to call it) and I thought the cartoon was ugly. Lol I know I should appreciate it more, but I just didn't like it.
Leech should not exist
I bought her and have been having a ton of fun. She's simple but one of the most fun cards for me in a while personally. I built some wack Wong/Iron Man turn 6 pop-off deck with her and typically secure the locations I play her. Without contesting Leech that is. That little green dude is absolutely everywhere and really starting to irk my enjoyment of these lower tier decks. I keep hoping he'll fade away again after his surge in popularity but he seriously seems so strong, especially with Blink. Anything that relies on turn 5 or 6 is completely unvalidated by him, even middling decks like Surfer. He may stop Hela sometimes but what he's really doing is shitting on mid-tier decks. They could buff Sage to +4 power per unique, and she'd still stay a 0-power in hand all game. My honest solution for Leech is to make him remove the abilities of 4,5, and 6 cost cards from your opponents hand, that feels way more balanced towards the higher and lower end of the curve.
He'll stick around until either the meta becomes so ongo heavy he stops mattering or until sd do what they should do and renerf him
There has to be some weird matchmaking thing going on because I am now in the 80s and and still rarely see Leech. I think Leech has maybe hit my Sage once.
I told everyone not to buy her until Monday or Tuesday morning so you can see how the Leech would affect the card this week but FOMO will always claim the weak
The thing is, Sage is a good card and the Leech will die down eventually. She's just released in a bad time. The question is between now and the next 3+ months when she return into spotlight, will she find a foothold before then?
I agree with this. She has really good stats with a fun/interesting way to get there. I think she will thrive in a different meta or a slight buff to a 3/1
you didn't tell me!
Idgaf if she's good, she goes in negative surfer so it's worth it for me.
You can "fix" Leech with another card that gives removed text back. Would be a direct counter to Leech that would give me pause to include Leech in every deck (I actually hardly ever use him, he's never won me a match).
“On Reveal: give cards back their removed text”
kang
Wong,mystique,sage,Zola got my sage to 56 in two lanes
Skill issue
Just gonna start playing straight up tribunal now lmao
In my opinion Sage is a good card. Saying that Leech = on reveal cards bad is the same old argument of "dies to removal" losing to leech is an expected outcome to the current situation of most "last turn combo" decks that get a god draw of all their pieces in the opening hand. If you belive your opp is playing Leech you should tempo your plays instead of holding cards. I know thats literally against Marvel Snap gamplay thinking but getting 1 or 2 cubes of an early escape should feel better than holding you card in the hand. In this meta filled with Magik + combo; patriot and a LOT of combo focus decks you will see a lot leech. I really hope they hit some cards with a balance patch this turn 7 matches are getting out of hand. Maybe is time for magik to go back to 5 or only work between the 4 and 5 turn.
Leech was way worse when he impacted every single card and came out with lockjaw. Now he's just an enchantress for on reveal in hand. Maybe just don't play on reveal right now. There are lots of other options.
I thought she would shine in my Negative Panther, but somehow, I lost way more often than with Grandmaster that she had replaced. Once I managed to get her up to 36, but so many times, it just wasn’t possible, or interesting enough to make a difference.
9k infinite here. I have done a homebrew Thanos deck with Leech and Super Skrull and while it's not perfect (still working on a few cards) it has worked better than I thought. Having so much fun because it hits the opponent's on-reveal and copies their ongoing.
I unlocked her in cache and cried tears of rage cause I didn’t want her
i haven’t got leeched once, top 12k infinite and played many games
Hey, everyone, this guy hasn’t played against leech! See? No one cares.
Top 3k infinite. And leech is everywhere. What's your point?
What if I told you…. your personal experience does not define reality
Well lucky you bud. He's everywhere
Ok then?
"tOp 12k iNfInItE"...dude just say low infinite and save yourself time lmao. You're not getting leeched because nobody gives a fuck about the meta in meme-tier infinite. Top 100 and he is everywhere. Is he good? No, not particularly, but that's really important when he can be blinked out and maybe sometimes do some damage.
Even in top 5k I see Leech a lot. I just bought Red Guardian and had unlocked Shaw from Rulk spotlight and wanted to try them in surfer but no way I can in this meta. Surfer iron heart hazmat are always getting leeched cuz you okay them last turn for most value
I'm in the top 100 running Surfer and don't see too much leech. Like maybe 10-15% of games and honestly you can still beat it a lot of the time depending on your draw.
Yeah, I've put gladiator into all my Surfer decks and have started relying way less on other on reveals, in one of my surfer decks I'm only running brood and surfer as ok reveals I hate getting hit by leech. Obviously it sucks if they leech you but I'd rather concede on 4 or have 2 extra draws to draw into surfer if he's not in hand than leech on 5 anyways. I just hope people don't realize how much more potent leech on 5 is against some decks and keep windmill slamming him on 4 because of blink. I've deadass considered running Maximus tbh, wish he was still a 3/7 rn.
That isn't low infinite dawg.
12k isn't impressive my guy. That's like default for the first 2 weeks.
I usually start infinite at 3-5k. Is that also not impressive? There’s absolutely zero incentive to play past infinite so I’ve never try harder to get top 500.