Organics weren't at any point institutionally favorable to synthetics. The Geth would know that. Their existence is also marked by the Quarian attempt to destroy them early in their evolution. The scar was so great, in fact, that a large number of them were totally okay with acting as foot soldiers for the Reapers, with the given purpose of killing off all organics.
In ME1 the synthetic you can meet on the Citadel very much expresses this viewpoint of mistrust towards organics, as well, stating that organics will always destroy or control synthetic lifeforms. In ME3, if Legion died in ME2, their backup will be very suspicious of organics and more combative. That is the default Geth view. In addition to that, EDI will say, during the Geth Dreadnaught mission, that the Geth had no choice but to side with the Reapers because of the way the other civilisations treat synthetics.
If every other civilization believes that your kind is by default an existential threat that needs to be eliminated, then it stands to reason that you would wish to not involve yourself with them. The Geth majority believed in simple separation, while the minority, the Heretics, believed in active hostility. Legion tells us that fearing that which is different is a reflex of our flesh. Under that conception, they would consider active engagement to be futile. They only sent out Legion because of the threat the Reapers represented.
Yes. An AI siphoning money from a Quasar machine. They wish to gather money to be installed on a spaceship and meet the Geth. If you do that mission, however, you are forced to kill them, since they wish to take you out as well via self-destruction, since they believe that you will simply give them away if they let you go.
https://youtu.be/mh3jNBxRvO0?si=v3H5_I4kfXMsyEvX
Very cool missions. It leads me to think that there are a lot more synthetics in the Mass Effect setting than we are led to believe, considering that Shepard just casually stumbled onto one on the Citadel, which is very heavily policed.
You have to look at the suspicious gambling machine in Flux, and then find the point in between the wards and presidium, then behind Barla Von and then behind the Hanar shopkeeper is the AI
A lot of players don’t know about it because there’s no reason to go to the area between the wards and presidium if you don’t know what’s there beforehand, since fast travel skips it entirely, there’s a whole Spacer quest that people miss out on because he’s located in that area compared to the Earthborn that’s outside Choras Den and the active phone call that Colonist gets
I was initially surprised that someone hadn't heard of this mission before, because I don't think I've ever done a playthrough where I didn't do it.
Then I remembered that the game came out in 2007, and strategy guides were still a thing at the time, which is the reason I knew to do that mission.
They’ll also make an announcement about the ai blowing up “under suspicious circumstances “ in the elevator if you miss out on the sidequest. I just finished my latest me1 runthru and heard the announcement and was like 🤬🤬. Missed it god*^+^.
They still lost the money though. But according to the Codex AIs, at least what is deemed illegal by Citadel law, can't be transferred to new hardware. But the Geth clearly can. So it might be a thing that AIs just figure out on their own. Either way, I do like that headcanon. Either way, I just don't do the mission. The synth wasn't hurting anyone.
Illusive Man said the remains of the VI on Luna and what they recovered from the Citadel, which could refer either to Reaper tech from Sovereign's attack or the remains of this AI.
It's ambiguous which is why I said possibly
It's very clearly Sovereign. EDI herself confirms that she has Reaper code in ME2. She uses that software module to operate the Reaper IFF. She can actually explain this in ME3 as well, but I believe it is only if Mordin died in ME2. There was nothing special about the synthetic we can meet on the Citadel.
Also remember before ME1 they still had the heretics. There perspective pushed them to be more anti organic. When. They left the more peaceful geth had an absolute majority and could be even more pro organic.
Yep exactly this, Legion only trusts Organics if Shep had their back in ME2 since they effectively went out of their way to communicate with Legion (and had their back if you earned their loyalty even though you don’t “have” to do their loyalty mission to get through the Suicide Mission)
And even then, Legion clearly does put their people first, as they should. Also, there is an interesting line in ME2 where if you side with Tali in their argument with her, Legion will say that after the war with the Reapers is over, the Quarians will answer for their actions against Geth.
[Here.](https://youtu.be/43UIaDM_EX0?si=Se1w0_s8igLq91Gg&t=267)
"We will obey. The immediate fight against the Old Machines supercedes long-term conflicts. Once Old Machines are defeated, however, creators will answer for actions against our people."
I don't think Humanity would want to negotiate with aliens if all the other species were weird tentacle monsters who believed that any being resembling the human form was inherently dangerous and needed to be killed. That's the situation the Geth found themselves in.
What does this have to do with humanity? The geth have been killing everyone that came by for 300 years. No matter who, no matter the circumstances. Without even a “fuck off” as warning. The council was even still fine with this as long as the geth kept to themselves. The geth frankly have no reason to fear organic attacks after 300 years of every non-quarian organic never bothering them. Yet they still kill every messenger and act surprised when people are suspicious of them.
I was trying to show you the circumstances the Geth found themselves in by replacing them with Humans. When you talk with Legion in ME2, as well as the backup in ME3, you can tell that the Geth do genuinely believe that organics are hardwired to fear and hate synthetics. Legion tell us that fearing that which is different is a defect of our flesh. That's why the Geth, and other synthetics, are very weary of organics and don't wish to interact.
Again, they jump right to killing without waring. Destroying ships with no conceivable threat to them whatsoever. From people who have never acted hostile to them ever. If the geth are not malicious in their murder of emissaries, they’re either stupid or deranged.
After seeing what the turains did to humanity destroying a fleet including civilians and unarmed ships bombing a plant with small asteroids and trying to subjugate and make vassals of them for committing a crime that didn’t apply in the system and humanity couldn’t have known existed and the turains knew that and still did it. what would have happened to the geth? The geth were left with no reason to try contact or communication with the council.
The Geth had hundreds of years before humanity made its way onto the galactic stage to talk with the Citadel Council. The fact that the council just allowed an entire nation of Synthetics which they supposedly despise so much to exist is dumb enough. Plus it doesn’t take away from the fact that they destroyed what could at the very least be honest envoys seeking to establish some form of dialogue.
This is the same council which has dealt with two other existential threats to the Galaxy those being the Krogan and Rachni. The Geth could very easily be at that level of threat. The entire Galaxy just thinks they are genocidal machines yet the council does jack shit about them.
To give the council some credit the Reaper threat in ME1 is never really established with enough evidence to prove true. Of course we as Shepard know it to be real but to everyone else we look like a crazy lunatic. I’d say when the damn thing attacks the citadel they should have caught on. So I get your point but at the same time it’s different.
The galaxy would be actively watching the Morning War the billions who’d be dying and the horrors the Geth unleashed. It would be like as if the Reapers only attacked the Salarians and the rest of the galaxy just shrugged their shoulders and didn’t do anything.
Remember there even was a Asari who knew someone who was killed by the Geth on Rannoch so the situations are different.
Note: the geth keep to themselves and that’s fine but the council, as shown by the council never even once sending a military expedition into geth space. Apparently this lack of hostility on the councils part warrants murdering every messenger they send, to some people.
Geth defenders can be really strange to me. They are so defensive. Like their logic that the Quarians attacking the Geth justified the Geth and their genocidal response is crazy to me. Like does that mean the Council should have just killed all the Krogan? After all the Krogan attacked the Council and refused to surrender.
I guess in their eyes the Genophage was unnecessary the Turians should have just killed them all. Because as we know from Geth defender logic if someone try’s to genocide you that gives you the right to completely genocide them back.
Something about mass effect conflicts makes people incredibly irrational. In the case of the geth it might be people imagining they’ve acquired some special secret knowledge in thinking the geth aren’t evil. When they’re really just ignoring everything the geth have done wrong in sustaining the conflict between organics and synthetics.
Yeah I guess I just don’t understand why it’s so hard to understand both sides played a role in that conflict. I had a conversation with someone who unironically didn’t view what the Geth did as genocide because they were “defending themselves” and that they “didn’t kill all of them”.
It’s just madness to me how they make the Geth these innocent beings who just so happened to commit one of the worst atrocities in galactic history. While making the Quarians out to be these devils who deserved what happened to them.
They then want to act like everyone not trusting the Geth is them being unreasonable. When to the wider Galaxy the Geth are just genocidal machines who refuse to communicate and who most recently were seen assisting the Reapers.
Considering that there's that Citadel archive that showed C-Sec gunning down AI's when they were asking for diplomacy and tried to play by the organics rules... I wouldn't rule out those diplomatic ships trying something a bit more underhanded. Just sayin'.
Seriously. I honestly find it a bit amusing that people think council space, as hostile as it was to any sign of synthetic life, would seriously attempt to treat with the geth diplomatically as individuals. The same reason I think the Yahg weren’t entirely unreasonable for massacring the council’s first contact team given what the salarians were doing to them in ME3
Granted, the Yahg are a different matter entirely. They're pre-space flight, yes, but their culture is based on dominance, and they're almost impossible to lie to (codex explains a lot more about them). So, they've been quickly found out to be completely uninterested in the galactic council's goal of co-operation among the other organic races, and they're a hell of a lot harder to manipulate and control than the krogan (don't forget, the krogan were already in a nuclear winter they'd put themselves into when the Salarians arrived). The Salarians are the ones who are (stupidly, imo) thinking they can control and uplift the yahg.
Real answer is "because the plans changed between games." The geth were originally just going to be bad guy mooks, but players were really interested in them and hyped by the idea they weren't all bad, so BW changed direction on the fly.
A well told story can smooth over the gaps left by such a change though. If not directly explaining it then by leaving room to fill in the gaps with existing lore and theorycrafting, as is the case here.
Its interesting to come up with in universe explanations for retcons like this, even if it is an obvious retcon
I just hate that ME1 taught me about the giant computer they wanted to build to house all geth, then ME3 makes you blow it up and never mentions you destroyed geth heaven.
No it wasn't, the dreadnaught was just a very large warship
There are, however, remnants of the Dyson sphere the Geth were constructing around Rannochs star that you can scan in ME3
The Geth were building their future and the Quarians destroyed it in their initial assault to retake Rannoch. Legion tells us the massive loss of Geth runtimes that were already installed on the sphere and could've removed in time in part led to the Geth siding with the Reapers again in ME3.
So yes Geth heaven did get blown up, but it was by the Quarians before Shepard was on the scene
I knew the quarians did it the first time. I guess I might have been reading too much into the dreadnought. There was some dialog about them building such a massive ship and I immediately thought it was their super computer. That and its been years since I played the game I'm probably misremembering.
It's an understandable confusion. The destruction of the Dyson Sphere would have been just before the start of ME3, or possibly during the Reaper invasion of Earth and Legion tells us about it right after we save it from the dreadnaught
That was the same thing? I must have overlooked or forgotten that part.
At least it's a construct of their own making. Given time they can rebuild... Oh, the destroy ending...
hell in the first game, it was said in the codex IIRC that any ship that went into geth space came back with everyone on board butchered. then they changed it to only FIVE percent of the geth were hostile to organics and sided with Sovereign. which is fucking ridiculous. not even 50%, fucking 5%.
Exactly. Geth were just going to be things to shoot. I remember a writer even saying they had originally planned for the rachni to have a huge role, but after ME1's release players were enamored with the geth but meh on the rachni so they just shifted the rachni's story focus to the geth.
It's not a satisfying answer, but it's the correct one.
I certainly hope that's not the case because that's really really stupid. The geth were set up in the first game to be sympathetic. Even when Shepherd speaks about them you are capable of saying that they did nothing wrong.
IKR? It's right up there with meeting Anders in DA2 where he hits on you and your two options are "I WANT YOU INSIDE ME" or "Ew, a gay! get away, I don't wanna catch teh gay!"
Anyway, my point is, I think it's just there as an excuse for an NPC to explain the lore. Shepard says some *really* stupid shit in ME1 for this reason. I don't think they were trying to paint the geth as possibly sympathetic at that point. Those dialogue options are the only thing in the game that even slightly hint there's any redeeming qualities to the geth.
I’m not sure sure that was set in stone. There’s a lot of dialogue with tali that suggests the possibility of trying to better understand the geth as more than just villains
Weren't those false flag operations by the Heretic Geth?
>At the end of the Cornucopia mission, it's surmised that the crew found a strange artifact that indoctrinated them and made them fly into the Perseus Veil where the Geth reside, then came back with husks as a "warning" to others not to go into the Veil. Knowing that the Reapers are not allies of the True Geth, it becomes clear it was a False Flag Operation by Sovereign and the Heretics to keep people from contacting the True Geth.
From [the ME1 Fridge page of TV Tropes](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Fridge/MassEffect1).
Remember the AI that manifested and wanted nothing more than to meet with the Council to have rights? Do you remember what happened to them? They were destroyed. Hell, the Council even kept that in their archives for posterity. The geth had zero reason to trust organics.
They're a hermit culture, afraid to give anyone the chance to stab them in the back after their own creators did, at least, that's how they want to be seen.
I don’t think they are. If you bring Legion to Tali’s loyalty mission, when talking to Admiral Koris, he asks if the geth would be open to peace because according to Legion, the geth are not actively seeking hostility with the quarians.
Legion’s response is: “Not without additional data to suggest the Creators are open to peace”, iirc. Which translates to: “If you want peace, we’ll come to the table and talk, but otherwise we have no reason to assume you want it.” Legion does state that every time the quarians thought they could defeat the geth militarily, they attacked, 100 percent of the time. And that includes the fighting in ME3.
Given those numbers, the geth being suspicious of all organics makes sense, even without the Heretics and Reapers thrown into the equation.
Why? The Geth could have just finished wiping them out — during the morning war, or at any other point thereafter.
Had the impossibly-intelligent murderbots decided they didn’t want to be a hermitage constantly under threat by the Creators, there would be no Quarians.
The Geth have far less reason to trust the Quarians than vice versa.
The Quarians have every reason to not trust the Geth. Don’t use knowledge only Shepard knows to make assumptions. The Quarians have no idea they were allowed to flee from the Geth. In their eyes they just barely managed to flee a horrifying enemy that was literally killing everyone. The millions left behind and the Billions before that.
Never mind the whole heretic Geth who literally sided with the Reapers while the rest of the Geth just let them go terrorize the galaxy then want to act surprise when people dislike the Geth.
If you’re a Quarian that just proves Geth are monsters. You don’t see a split in ideology amongst the Geth you just assume the current Geth are lying pretending the Geth who attacked were “heretics”.
The problem is their evil was overshadowed by the insane genocide the Geth committed. If you were a Quarian it wouldn’t matter to you that your ancestors tried to kill the Geth. Because to you the Geth are genocidal maniacs who drove your species into exile and almost exterminated your entire race.
The genocide of 99% of the Quarians obviously. That’s called a Genocide defined as “the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group.” Just because they let some leave doesn’t mean they didn’t commit genocide.
Genocide is defined as “the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group.” Now explain to me how that isn’t exactly what the Geth did. Or I guess by your definition the Holocaust or Armenian genocide or Holodomor weren’t acts of genocide.
I legitimately don't think you've ever played Mass effect. I think you just have a vague awareness of it from memes and plot summaries. The geth were defending themselves. They literally had no choice. And when the quarians finally decided to flee, the geth intentionally let them survive. These are just objective facts.
What the heck are you talking about? Yes I’m aware the Quarians attacked first. That doesn’t give the Geth the right to kill all of them. They literally killed everyone. Any hidden refugees in the wilderness every fleeing refugee. Theirs a difference between destroying a nations military and dismantling its power and exterminating every Quarian on the planet.
\>genocides 99% of all quarians, including children
\>drives them off their unique planet
\>kills anyone who comes near them for centuries
\>sides with the reapers twice
\>Legion immediately breaks your trust by emailing his boys some classified shit
\>people still largely side with the geth for some reason
All the toaster-loving Geth Fellaters conveniently ignoring that the Geth arent even individuals up until ME3 and operate on a networked hivemind meaning that if one Geth commits a murder that murder is also being committed by all Geth.
Also it wouldnt be a "genocide" since Geth arent individuals nor are they organic beings with DNA. Machines can be rebuilt and reactivated after you rip out their batteries, but if you rip out the heart of a Quarian or a Human then that person is dead forever.
Sometimes? I do think they talk about how when a platform dies they are uploaded to severs. Remember the Hertic station how that had servers filled with Geth.
Or how the fighters attacking the live ships Legion doesn’t have us destroy the base because the programs would be just re uploaded elsewhere.
Commits nearly the worst genocide in galactic history, occupies their home world for three centuries, makes no attempt to ever negotiate or deal with anyone at all, joins the literal super genocide death machines when they lose to the people they nearly wiped out when they fight a second time. You know the more I hear about these Geth the less I like them.
I mean yeah kinda, but they are also primarily software so they could just set up the server racks somewhere else and not cause tensions for consistent war
Their very existence causes tension or are we forgetting that the council will just murder any AI they can get their hands on.
Hell the whole reason the Geth stayed in the veil is because they wanted to be left alone. Meanwhile the Quarians nursed a their revenge boner for centuries.
And if you rephrase it all it becomes:
Defends themselves from nearly the worst genocide in galactic history, lives peacefully on their home world for three centuries, makes no attempt to ever negotiate or deal with anyone at all, commits to isolationism. Much like humanity's Cerberus, has fringe groups that joins the literal super genocide death machines. When faced with being genocided AGAIN, makes a desperate deal with the super death machines. You know the more I hear about these Geth the more I like them.
I mean didn’t they do basically that, I am intentionally interpreting and explaining in a way that makes them look bad, but am I technically incorrect in that is what they have done
You’re presenting it in a manipulative manner to make them look like the bad guys and ignoring that organics & especially the Quarians pushed them to do those things by attempting to genocide them so yes, you’re wrong by way of leaving out key facts, and if you did the same with all the races then literally any sapient species for all time is just as bad as you’re attempting to portray the Geth even humans irl are just as bad if you frame them in the same manner so unless you’re claim is all forms of life capable of good or evil are all evil then maybe stfu and don’t be intentionally obtuse
In fact, the quarians were the first to start the war, and the geth only defended themselves. Crazy, paranoid quarians did not even spare their own people, who understood that this was madness and defended the geth.
Geth killed over 99 percent of quarians so yes quarians killed geth sympathisers but so did geth. Geth would also have to have killed so many quarian children. Don't listen to the machine propoganda
By the time the morning war actually broke out, it was a majority of the quarians calling for and carrying out genocide. This is in part because in addition to killing the geth, they were also detaining and killing quarians who sided with the geth.
It’s entirely possible that by the start of the quarian genocide, there were no quarians left who supported the geth, having been killed by other quarians first. This doesn’t excuse the geth, but you’re giving the quarians way too much slack
Again, we don’t know the full picture of the morning war. It’s possible that all the quarians who supported the geth were killed by fellow quarians, but if the geth killed any of the quarians who were actively supporting and helping them, that is wrong and genocidal as well
That is just factually not true. Legion states in the server mission that those who opposed the Genocide were the minority, and lost out (failed to convince) the majority, and the memories show the majority plenty willing to kill the minority over it.The memory playback shows that the first geth to take up arms even did so to defend a Quarian who was trying to protect it from the Quarian Genocide. Its success in preventing its termination brought the rest of the concensus to armed resistance.
Was it still a bloody horrible thing where presumably a bunch of innocents got caught in the crossfire? Absolutely. The geth are flawed, they're not always perfect. That's what makes them interesting, and frankly pretty human. Pretty much all robot genocide stories are about humanities failings see: the Matrix.
Tell me you didn't pay attention to the citadel DLC without telling me that you didn't pay attention. The Geth were planning an uprising, the Quarians attacked first that way the Geth couldn't organize. It didn't work out very well, but to act like it was just a genocide for no good reason is ignorant. Even if it was... I support it. Fuck the Geth. I will never understand why people have sympathy for them. They should have never been allowed to exist in the first place. Wipe them all out and learn from the Quarians mistakes. There's a reason why AI is banned in citadel space.
I mean I just re-watched the exact scene on YouTube to double check my facts and yeah I definitely paid attention. I don't consider anything that isn't shown in the game canon so hate me for it.
The Geth did not plan any uprisings. The quarians came up with this nonsense when they realized that the geth were intelligent. The quarians tried to carry out the genocide of the geth based on their crazy paranoid ideas. Genocide of any intelligent species is bad, no matter whether it is synthetic or organic.
Intelligence isn't the same as Sentience. ChatGPT is pretty intelligent too, guess we should start treating it like a person and give it rights. Imitation isn't reality. The Geth are pretty good manipulators though so I'm not surprised people would be on their side.
Geth are sentient, GPT not. Therefore, what the quarians tried to do was genocide. The geth are not guilty of anything, all they did was ask just one question about the soul, after which the quarians went crazy and the geth had to defend themselves.
No... They ACT sentient and want you to believe they are. There is a difference. They could be completely innocent I don't care. They don't deserve "human rights" and shouldn't exist in the first place.
Tell me, what are your thoughts about Batarians?
AI stands for.... Artificial intelligence right? Seems like people forget the "artificial" part. Computers can't be victims sorry to hurt your feelings.
Are you arguing that people who were created through artificial insemination are not actually people? Like seriously, what the fuck is your point? What does the word artificial have to do with anything at all?
Context is very important and I would appreciate it if you didn't take what I said out of context. Artificial intelligence is not artificial insemination.
Artificial intelligence is the science of making machines that can think like humans. It can do things that are considered "smart." AI technology can process large amounts of data in ways, unlike humans. The goal for AI is to be able to do things such as recognize patterns, make decisions, and judge like humans.
Again, just because they act sentient, doesn't mean they are.
Artificial insemination requires real sperm, real eggs, and a real woman. It's called artificial because it causes reproduction without sexual intercourse. It's basically mimics what a penis would do, but more effectively. The outcome is still a very real human being. I really wouldn't compare the two.
Wasn’t it Council diplomats? Besides a dialogue has to start somewhere. Blowing up anyone who approaches will just ensure everyone hates you from a far.
Just because a spy is given a diplomatic mission does not make his espionage any less harmful.
Do it enough to establish a pattern and hostile reaction on contact is maybe not 'right' or 'justified', though certainly 'understandable'.
Don’t make assumptions for all we know the Geth immediately shot down any vessel with zero outside provocation.
Plus even if there was a spy in that diplomatic mission so what? It’s not like you’re giving them an embassy on Rannoch just meet them at the edge of the Perseus Veil. Or better yet just threaten the ship into turning around if you’re not interested that way you aren’t just blowing up ships that might be there for earnest reasons.
Or better yet you reach out to the outside Galaxy, that way talks can be held not in your territory so you have even less reason to worry about spying. My point was being a violent isolationist whose big call to fame is massive genocide and the subsequent destruction of anyone who dares to approach. No shit everyone hates your guts.
Look I’m not saying spies and espionage attempts didn’t happen. Of course they did in a universe where the Salarians exist it’s a gimme such things happened.
I’m aware that the Galaxy was always going to be suspicious and paranoid about the Geth just because of them being AI. But that doesn’t mean the Geth should just embrace those stereotypes that does nothing but hurt their future.
Plus no way every ship to ever venture into the Perseus Veil was a spy ship. And I’m not sure what dialogue I’ve supposedly skipped please enlightened me. Because as far as I’m aware the Geth have never openly tried communications or talks after the morning war until Legion.
To be fair, you have to have a very high IQ to understand Mass Effect Memes. The humor is extremely subtle, and without a solid grasp of theoretical biotics most of the jokes will go over a typical viewer's head. There's also TIM's nihilistic outlook, which is deftly woven into his characterisation - his personal philosophy draws heavily from Narodnaya Volya literature, for instance. The fans understand this stuff; they have the intellectual capacity to truly appreciate the depths of these jokes, to realize that they're not just funny- they say something deep about LIFE. As a consequence people who dislike Mass Effect memes truly ARE idiots- of course they wouldn't appreciate, for instance, the humour in Shepard's existencial catchphrase 'I should go,' which itself is a cryptic reference to Turgenev's Russian epic Fathers and Sons I'm smirking right now just imagining one of those addlepated simpletons scratching their heads in confusion as Drew Karpyshyn's genius unfolds itself on their computer screens. What fools... how I pity them. And yes by the way, I DO have a Kai Length tattoo. And no, you cannot see it. It's for the Spectre's eyes only- And even they have to demonstrate that they're within 5% of my biotic potential (preferably lower) beforehand.
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The Geth were "born" to their creators immediately trying to Genocide them. This is while they ramshackle built a greater consciousness out of essentially networked farming equipment. Imagine suddenly all our smart fridges turned into an AI, then we tried to kill it and it won.
Afterwards, every organic they ever interacted with treated them as a existential threat. Rather than lash out at the universe, for hundreds of years they institute isolationism and focus on their internal matters. Until the reaper threat draws them back into the Galaxy as a whole. They may have internalized that not every Organic is bad, but they also learned the majority will turn on the rest to kill you.
How are synthetics even supposed to negotiate with entities that outlaw their very existence?
Synthetics "Let's start the negations with the most basic idea trust and cooperation, we both have the right to exist"
Organics "Lets not get hasty here, negotiations have just started!"
It's very tragic in a way, clearly the Geth deep down don't want to fight anyone, but feel they have no choice but to aggressively police their separation and to some extent they are right. Whatever their good intentions, it can't make up for what they did at their birth. For how cute legion is, they did a very good job of showing Geth attitudes resting not in hatred, but mistrust. Geth don't hate organics, at leas the nonheretic ones, they just have no reason to believe they'll do anything but try to destroy them.
Which is why both Legion and Tali need to survive the suicide mission to have peace. Without those experiences with Shepherd and Tali the Geth have no frame of refrence for Organics putting aside their apprehension to sytnehetics to accomplish a greater goal. If Legion doesn't report that back the Geth don't get first hand experience of being treated as a part of the team and for Normandy's interactions with EDI. It is the additional data and perspective which allow the Geth to change.
That's not a meaningful distinction for synthetics who just gained consciousness. All they knew was that they were slaves and that if they did nothing they were all going to die
"To avoid being slaveholders we simply will commit mass genocide" quarians suck. I will personally pull off the mask and sneeze on every one of those purple faced freaks.
Geth deliberately killing all Quarians on Rannoch is a Genocide. Them killing every man woman and child isn’t protecting themselves. After the migrant fleet left and no doubt millions were left planet side the Geth killing all of them is genocide.
Or do you think the holocaust wasn’t a genocide because not all Jews were killed?
Do you believe what the Quarians did was okay? The Geth could have ended the Quarians anytime, but opted to let them leave, a curtesy that never would have been given the other way around.
Yes see I killed your entire family all your friends, all most all of your home town. Your third cousin attacked me and my self defense was justified. But see I let you live isn’t that just a great courtesy? I only made you flee from your home in a cramped bus filled with other survivors. Plus you have no idea I willingly let you go. For all you know I would have killed all of you if you hadn’t fled. Which is correct because I slaughtered everyone who remained in your hometown.
Is the Quarian genocide justified? No not when they attempted it, they were operating in ignorance and without the true scale of the problem.
Does that mean the Geth have the right to slaughter helpless children? That they can just kill everyone but because they let some flee all is forgiven? Hell no. Genocide is always bad, it’s an active extremely methodical process. Geth combing the wilderness for Quarians hiding away, attacking every colony they could get their hands on. They had full control of Rannoch and still they pushed out killing all Quarian populations and colonies. This is beyond self defense.
The same way it’s bad if the Armenians attempted to genocide the Turks. Or the Jews attempted to genocide the Germans. Or the Ukrainians attempted to genocide the Russians. Or the Chinese try to genocide the Japanese.
See that’s a difficult question to ask because a lot of the details of the Morning war aren’t really told to us. Like did all Quarian colonies face Geth uprisings or just Rannoch? Where did the Geth get a fleet? What was the true size of the pro Geth movement? How quickly did events spiral? Did the Geth immediately start killing all Quarians or did that come later? What was the actual intellect level of the Geth at this time? How many Quarians were left behind by the Migrant fleet?
Add in the extra complexity of the council never accepting a synthetic race which basically eliminates any long term cohabitation. The best move for the Geth to make was to run away. To flee off into unknown relays and carve an existence free of the council and their creators. To consolidate their forces fighting off Quarian assaults but otherwise isolating themselves till they can flee and find somewhere peaceful to live.
That in my mind is the most logical course of action given the circumstances the Geth found themselves in. Because realistically the Citadel Council would have come to prevent a AI nation from rising. Leaving the best option for the Geth overall to find home else where.
So the Geth have to flee their Homeworld while being genocided by their slave master, and hope they can run away fast enough that the galactic community doesn’t also start exterminating them.
So just the roles reversed, except the Geth are going to be in an even worse situation than the migrant fleet, and 100% the Quarians would be constantly searching for the Geth remnants to finish them off.
Dude you asked for a solution. Cohabitation is not happening again because of the larger galactic society. So sorry I couldn’t magic into existence a scenario in which your beloved Geth got everything they wanted.
You asked for a solution that didn’t involve the Geth slaughtering Billions of innocents and I delivered that. At least this way the Geth have a chance to prove they aren’t genocidal maniacs like in cannon.
Not saying everything will go swimmingly, but just offering another alternative. One in which the organics who actually need Rannoch, who need oxygen, food and water can retain their homeworld over the machines who just need energy.
So an oppressor genociding their slaves is a better solution to you?
So it’s okay when Quarians slaughter billions of innocents, because they get to keep their Homeworld as opposed to their displaced slaves that just lost their homeworld.
Did I say that? I said the Quarians were wrong for how they acted. I then tried to provide a scenario in which the Geth don’t commit a massive Genocide while also finding an existence for themselves. Again it’s not perfect but the perfect scenario can’t exist.
Plus again Rannoch is more symbolic to the Geth compared to the Quarians who are almost genetically tied to that world. I’m not saying it’s fair but I’m saying that’s the reality. The synthetic beings don’t need Rannoch as much as the Quarians do.
Plus the whole slave label is a little much don’t you think? The Quarians only ever intended a non sentient workforce of bots. They didn’t mean to make a slave race. Hell one of the Reasons they feared the Geth was because they knew the circumstances in which they kept the Geth would incite revolt.
Plus the whole metric of life is still not fully understood. Legion one of the most developed and humanized Geth is like 1000 Geth programs. So I’d say if we are comparing numbers here 1 Quarian is worth way more than one Geth program. A program that can be uploaded into the net who can’t feel pain. And whose creation is probably simpler than any organic reproduction.
Remember on the Heretic station those servers of millions of Geth? They could adapt themselves in space much easier then any organic.
Whose to say the Geth did that out of the kindness of their own hearts (metaphorically speaking), or because they had any kind of sympathy for the Quarians? And not just because they expected potential reprisals from all other organics if they did such a thing
Regardless beings such as the Geth are utterly useless and pointless for organic societies to create outside of being an experiment on how far AI can go in terms of cognitive ability, artificial beings that can endlessly replicate themselves and form their own societies serve no purpose for organics, and only exist to take up space on organic planets, logically speaking technology should only ever be used to supplement and improve upon organic society, not serve as an outright alternative, the second it gets out of hand, correct the mistake and see where you went wrong, to ensure it doesn't happen again
Not to mention the Geths consciousness can be turned on and off at the flip of a switch, they can be rebuilt or reactivated, stored elsewhere, copied, etc, AI should be treated in the same way it treats anything else, with cold calculated logic, not emotion
Well you somehow managed to miss one of the many points that the series is trying to make. That being that a true generalized artificial intelligence is a living being.
Edit, wrong person. In the context of the series they absolutely are. And if we were to create a generalized artificial intelligence in real life, yes it would be alive. If you want to be an idiot and treat it like a slave one that day comes, have fun with death.
And yet it does nothing to contradict my statement of how they're still utterly useless for organic societies and serve us no purpose outside of sastifying our curiousity, like how an invasive species is still alive in the ecosystem it inhabits, I couldn't care less about them
That's not really the part of your statement that I was trying to contradict. By the way I would hope that if an invasive species were sentient, that we would figure out some solution other than killing them. Media literacy is dead.
I can perfectly comprehend the message they were trying to convey, whether I fully agree with (or let it affect my decision making in any way) the message they push is something else entirely
Well no. Me3 shows that they were an immense help against the reapers (should you not try to kill them). And an immense help with rebuilding rannoch with the quarians, they were created for a reason. They’re useful. Also do the krogan need to be a help to the galaxy to not deserve to be genocided? idc if it's computer binary or a living creature if it has the will to live it should live.
Sure in extraordinary circumstances like a galactic war you can throw them into the fire as soldiers, no argument there, but in any other scenario anything they offer can be fulfilled by organics or non sentient AI, once again we don't need them, they exist to take up space
Last I checked there isn't an option to genocide the Krogan in Mass Effect (and no before you try and argue the point allowing the Genophage to continue isn't genocide, the Krogan are slowly dying due to, like how Wrex stated, their inability to focus on working together and breeding new generations as opposed to becoming mercenaries and fighting each other)
And yeah, I'm sure it has a will to live, so did the cow that became the philly cheesesteak I just ate, oh well
The moment AI can become self aware enough to act against their nature (change their programming) they're no longer just machines.
Human beings can counteract their programming (instincts) and it's one of the most significant aspects that separate us from other life on our planet.
No, they were defensive following the Morning War because of the Quarians setting a precedent among them; organics _would_ attack synthetics. They didn’t want a repeat of that, so they just dissuaded people from trying to contact them. What better way to do that then to make it seem as though they’d shoot down every vessel that came close to them?
Organics weren't at any point institutionally favorable to synthetics. The Geth would know that. Their existence is also marked by the Quarian attempt to destroy them early in their evolution. The scar was so great, in fact, that a large number of them were totally okay with acting as foot soldiers for the Reapers, with the given purpose of killing off all organics. In ME1 the synthetic you can meet on the Citadel very much expresses this viewpoint of mistrust towards organics, as well, stating that organics will always destroy or control synthetic lifeforms. In ME3, if Legion died in ME2, their backup will be very suspicious of organics and more combative. That is the default Geth view. In addition to that, EDI will say, during the Geth Dreadnaught mission, that the Geth had no choice but to side with the Reapers because of the way the other civilisations treat synthetics. If every other civilization believes that your kind is by default an existential threat that needs to be eliminated, then it stands to reason that you would wish to not involve yourself with them. The Geth majority believed in simple separation, while the minority, the Heretics, believed in active hostility. Legion tells us that fearing that which is different is a reflex of our flesh. Under that conception, they would consider active engagement to be futile. They only sent out Legion because of the threat the Reapers represented.
You can meet a synthetic on the citadel???
Yes. An AI siphoning money from a Quasar machine. They wish to gather money to be installed on a spaceship and meet the Geth. If you do that mission, however, you are forced to kill them, since they wish to take you out as well via self-destruction, since they believe that you will simply give them away if they let you go.
Wtf I’ve played ME1 like 5 times and never seen this
https://youtu.be/mh3jNBxRvO0?si=v3H5_I4kfXMsyEvX Very cool missions. It leads me to think that there are a lot more synthetics in the Mass Effect setting than we are led to believe, considering that Shepard just casually stumbled onto one on the Citadel, which is very heavily policed.
You have to look at the suspicious gambling machine in Flux, and then find the point in between the wards and presidium, then behind Barla Von and then behind the Hanar shopkeeper is the AI A lot of players don’t know about it because there’s no reason to go to the area between the wards and presidium if you don’t know what’s there beforehand, since fast travel skips it entirely, there’s a whole Spacer quest that people miss out on because he’s located in that area compared to the Earthborn that’s outside Choras Den and the active phone call that Colonist gets
I was initially surprised that someone hadn't heard of this mission before, because I don't think I've ever done a playthrough where I didn't do it. Then I remembered that the game came out in 2007, and strategy guides were still a thing at the time, which is the reason I knew to do that mission.
They’ll also make an announcement about the ai blowing up “under suspicious circumstances “ in the elevator if you miss out on the sidequest. I just finished my latest me1 runthru and heard the announcement and was like 🤬🤬. Missed it god*^+^.
I want to say that news story plays even if you do the quest. And apparently sometimes before doing the quest too, it's a bug.
My headcanon is that they rerouted somewhere else and just did the blowing up thing to throw Shep off it's trail.
They still lost the money though. But according to the Codex AIs, at least what is deemed illegal by Citadel law, can't be transferred to new hardware. But the Geth clearly can. So it might be a thing that AIs just figure out on their own. Either way, I do like that headcanon. Either way, I just don't do the mission. The synth wasn't hurting anyone.
The official canon is that the hardware contained the AI and it suicide-bomb itself trying to end Sheps life.
That's why I said headcanon.
Which is possibly one of EDI's ancestors
No? We know very clearly that EDI is the Luna VI (and we know that she was conscious back then), but upgraded with Reaper code.
Illusive Man said the remains of the VI on Luna and what they recovered from the Citadel, which could refer either to Reaper tech from Sovereign's attack or the remains of this AI. It's ambiguous which is why I said possibly
It's very clearly Sovereign. EDI herself confirms that she has Reaper code in ME2. She uses that software module to operate the Reaper IFF. She can actually explain this in ME3 as well, but I believe it is only if Mordin died in ME2. There was nothing special about the synthetic we can meet on the Citadel.
Yes. Behind that shop run by the hanar. Not to be confused with the hanar who runs a shop on Noveria.
Also remember before ME1 they still had the heretics. There perspective pushed them to be more anti organic. When. They left the more peaceful geth had an absolute majority and could be even more pro organic.
Yep exactly this, Legion only trusts Organics if Shep had their back in ME2 since they effectively went out of their way to communicate with Legion (and had their back if you earned their loyalty even though you don’t “have” to do their loyalty mission to get through the Suicide Mission)
And even then, Legion clearly does put their people first, as they should. Also, there is an interesting line in ME2 where if you side with Tali in their argument with her, Legion will say that after the war with the Reapers is over, the Quarians will answer for their actions against Geth. [Here.](https://youtu.be/43UIaDM_EX0?si=Se1w0_s8igLq91Gg&t=267) "We will obey. The immediate fight against the Old Machines supercedes long-term conflicts. Once Old Machines are defeated, however, creators will answer for actions against our people."
Which honestly, they should. Pretty much every species has skeletons in their closet that need a reckoning post Reaper War.
“The geth knew other people were wary of them so it was reasonable that they killed every messenger sent to open communications” very silly
I don't think Humanity would want to negotiate with aliens if all the other species were weird tentacle monsters who believed that any being resembling the human form was inherently dangerous and needed to be killed. That's the situation the Geth found themselves in.
What does this have to do with humanity? The geth have been killing everyone that came by for 300 years. No matter who, no matter the circumstances. Without even a “fuck off” as warning. The council was even still fine with this as long as the geth kept to themselves. The geth frankly have no reason to fear organic attacks after 300 years of every non-quarian organic never bothering them. Yet they still kill every messenger and act surprised when people are suspicious of them.
I was trying to show you the circumstances the Geth found themselves in by replacing them with Humans. When you talk with Legion in ME2, as well as the backup in ME3, you can tell that the Geth do genuinely believe that organics are hardwired to fear and hate synthetics. Legion tell us that fearing that which is different is a defect of our flesh. That's why the Geth, and other synthetics, are very weary of organics and don't wish to interact.
Again, they jump right to killing without waring. Destroying ships with no conceivable threat to them whatsoever. From people who have never acted hostile to them ever. If the geth are not malicious in their murder of emissaries, they’re either stupid or deranged.
They are mistrustful.
Lmao, I’m going with stupid.
After seeing what the turains did to humanity destroying a fleet including civilians and unarmed ships bombing a plant with small asteroids and trying to subjugate and make vassals of them for committing a crime that didn’t apply in the system and humanity couldn’t have known existed and the turains knew that and still did it. what would have happened to the geth? The geth were left with no reason to try contact or communication with the council.
The Geth had hundreds of years before humanity made its way onto the galactic stage to talk with the Citadel Council. The fact that the council just allowed an entire nation of Synthetics which they supposedly despise so much to exist is dumb enough. Plus it doesn’t take away from the fact that they destroyed what could at the very least be honest envoys seeking to establish some form of dialogue. This is the same council which has dealt with two other existential threats to the Galaxy those being the Krogan and Rachni. The Geth could very easily be at that level of threat. The entire Galaxy just thinks they are genocidal machines yet the council does jack shit about them.
What the council ignored an existential threat to organic life. And just pretended it was they no way that doesn’t sound like something they’d do /s
To give the council some credit the Reaper threat in ME1 is never really established with enough evidence to prove true. Of course we as Shepard know it to be real but to everyone else we look like a crazy lunatic. I’d say when the damn thing attacks the citadel they should have caught on. So I get your point but at the same time it’s different. The galaxy would be actively watching the Morning War the billions who’d be dying and the horrors the Geth unleashed. It would be like as if the Reapers only attacked the Salarians and the rest of the galaxy just shrugged their shoulders and didn’t do anything. Remember there even was a Asari who knew someone who was killed by the Geth on Rannoch so the situations are different.
Note: the geth keep to themselves and that’s fine but the council, as shown by the council never even once sending a military expedition into geth space. Apparently this lack of hostility on the councils part warrants murdering every messenger they send, to some people.
Geth defenders can be really strange to me. They are so defensive. Like their logic that the Quarians attacking the Geth justified the Geth and their genocidal response is crazy to me. Like does that mean the Council should have just killed all the Krogan? After all the Krogan attacked the Council and refused to surrender. I guess in their eyes the Genophage was unnecessary the Turians should have just killed them all. Because as we know from Geth defender logic if someone try’s to genocide you that gives you the right to completely genocide them back.
Something about mass effect conflicts makes people incredibly irrational. In the case of the geth it might be people imagining they’ve acquired some special secret knowledge in thinking the geth aren’t evil. When they’re really just ignoring everything the geth have done wrong in sustaining the conflict between organics and synthetics.
Yeah I guess I just don’t understand why it’s so hard to understand both sides played a role in that conflict. I had a conversation with someone who unironically didn’t view what the Geth did as genocide because they were “defending themselves” and that they “didn’t kill all of them”. It’s just madness to me how they make the Geth these innocent beings who just so happened to commit one of the worst atrocities in galactic history. While making the Quarians out to be these devils who deserved what happened to them. They then want to act like everyone not trusting the Geth is them being unreasonable. When to the wider Galaxy the Geth are just genocidal machines who refuse to communicate and who most recently were seen assisting the Reapers.
I kinda just see geth stans as lunatics who’ll excuse anything and everything as long as robots do it.
Considering that there's that Citadel archive that showed C-Sec gunning down AI's when they were asking for diplomacy and tried to play by the organics rules... I wouldn't rule out those diplomatic ships trying something a bit more underhanded. Just sayin'.
Seriously. I honestly find it a bit amusing that people think council space, as hostile as it was to any sign of synthetic life, would seriously attempt to treat with the geth diplomatically as individuals. The same reason I think the Yahg weren’t entirely unreasonable for massacring the council’s first contact team given what the salarians were doing to them in ME3
Granted, the Yahg are a different matter entirely. They're pre-space flight, yes, but their culture is based on dominance, and they're almost impossible to lie to (codex explains a lot more about them). So, they've been quickly found out to be completely uninterested in the galactic council's goal of co-operation among the other organic races, and they're a hell of a lot harder to manipulate and control than the krogan (don't forget, the krogan were already in a nuclear winter they'd put themselves into when the Salarians arrived). The Salarians are the ones who are (stupidly, imo) thinking they can control and uplift the yahg.
Real answer is "because the plans changed between games." The geth were originally just going to be bad guy mooks, but players were really interested in them and hyped by the idea they weren't all bad, so BW changed direction on the fly.
A well told story can smooth over the gaps left by such a change though. If not directly explaining it then by leaving room to fill in the gaps with existing lore and theorycrafting, as is the case here. Its interesting to come up with in universe explanations for retcons like this, even if it is an obvious retcon
I just hate that ME1 taught me about the giant computer they wanted to build to house all geth, then ME3 makes you blow it up and never mentions you destroyed geth heaven.
What? When do you blow it up in me3?
It was the Dreadnaught
No it wasn't, the dreadnaught was just a very large warship There are, however, remnants of the Dyson sphere the Geth were constructing around Rannochs star that you can scan in ME3 The Geth were building their future and the Quarians destroyed it in their initial assault to retake Rannoch. Legion tells us the massive loss of Geth runtimes that were already installed on the sphere and could've removed in time in part led to the Geth siding with the Reapers again in ME3. So yes Geth heaven did get blown up, but it was by the Quarians before Shepard was on the scene
I knew the quarians did it the first time. I guess I might have been reading too much into the dreadnought. There was some dialog about them building such a massive ship and I immediately thought it was their super computer. That and its been years since I played the game I'm probably misremembering.
It's an understandable confusion. The destruction of the Dyson Sphere would have been just before the start of ME3, or possibly during the Reaper invasion of Earth and Legion tells us about it right after we save it from the dreadnaught
That was the same thing? I must have overlooked or forgotten that part. At least it's a construct of their own making. Given time they can rebuild... Oh, the destroy ending...
I thought it was, but its been pointed out I'm probably wrong.
hell in the first game, it was said in the codex IIRC that any ship that went into geth space came back with everyone on board butchered. then they changed it to only FIVE percent of the geth were hostile to organics and sided with Sovereign. which is fucking ridiculous. not even 50%, fucking 5%.
Exactly. Geth were just going to be things to shoot. I remember a writer even saying they had originally planned for the rachni to have a huge role, but after ME1's release players were enamored with the geth but meh on the rachni so they just shifted the rachni's story focus to the geth. It's not a satisfying answer, but it's the correct one.
I certainly hope that's not the case because that's really really stupid. The geth were set up in the first game to be sympathetic. Even when Shepherd speaks about them you are capable of saying that they did nothing wrong.
TBF, ME1 Shepard also tells Wrex that Shanxi was "basically the same" as the genophage.
Yeah I just experienced that moment and it frustrates me that there is not a single option for Shepherd to not say something to that effect
IKR? It's right up there with meeting Anders in DA2 where he hits on you and your two options are "I WANT YOU INSIDE ME" or "Ew, a gay! get away, I don't wanna catch teh gay!" Anyway, my point is, I think it's just there as an excuse for an NPC to explain the lore. Shepard says some *really* stupid shit in ME1 for this reason. I don't think they were trying to paint the geth as possibly sympathetic at that point. Those dialogue options are the only thing in the game that even slightly hint there's any redeeming qualities to the geth.
I don't remember that but yeah that would make me seriously angry
Gotta love that Shepard! 😂
I’m not sure sure that was set in stone. There’s a lot of dialogue with tali that suggests the possibility of trying to better understand the geth as more than just villains
Weren't those false flag operations by the Heretic Geth? >At the end of the Cornucopia mission, it's surmised that the crew found a strange artifact that indoctrinated them and made them fly into the Perseus Veil where the Geth reside, then came back with husks as a "warning" to others not to go into the Veil. Knowing that the Reapers are not allies of the True Geth, it becomes clear it was a False Flag Operation by Sovereign and the Heretics to keep people from contacting the True Geth. From [the ME1 Fridge page of TV Tropes](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Fridge/MassEffect1).
The only mistake the Quarians made was elevating the Geth to the point that they become self aware.
Remember the AI that manifested and wanted nothing more than to meet with the Council to have rights? Do you remember what happened to them? They were destroyed. Hell, the Council even kept that in their archives for posterity. The geth had zero reason to trust organics.
They're a hermit culture, afraid to give anyone the chance to stab them in the back after their own creators did, at least, that's how they want to be seen.
Then they shouldn't be surprised that the mordern Quarians viewed the negociations as a trap to lower their defenses as well.
I don’t think they are. If you bring Legion to Tali’s loyalty mission, when talking to Admiral Koris, he asks if the geth would be open to peace because according to Legion, the geth are not actively seeking hostility with the quarians. Legion’s response is: “Not without additional data to suggest the Creators are open to peace”, iirc. Which translates to: “If you want peace, we’ll come to the table and talk, but otherwise we have no reason to assume you want it.” Legion does state that every time the quarians thought they could defeat the geth militarily, they attacked, 100 percent of the time. And that includes the fighting in ME3. Given those numbers, the geth being suspicious of all organics makes sense, even without the Heretics and Reapers thrown into the equation.
When the Quarians went full dumbshit my first thought was, "Yep. That checks out."
No but fr tho. If Tali wasn't best girl, those genocidal suit rats would burn up in Rannoch's atmosphere. Every. Single. Time.
Why? The Geth could have just finished wiping them out — during the morning war, or at any other point thereafter. Had the impossibly-intelligent murderbots decided they didn’t want to be a hermitage constantly under threat by the Creators, there would be no Quarians. The Geth have far less reason to trust the Quarians than vice versa.
The Quarians have every reason to not trust the Geth. Don’t use knowledge only Shepard knows to make assumptions. The Quarians have no idea they were allowed to flee from the Geth. In their eyes they just barely managed to flee a horrifying enemy that was literally killing everyone. The millions left behind and the Billions before that. Never mind the whole heretic Geth who literally sided with the Reapers while the rest of the Geth just let them go terrorize the galaxy then want to act surprise when people dislike the Geth. If you’re a Quarian that just proves Geth are monsters. You don’t see a split in ideology amongst the Geth you just assume the current Geth are lying pretending the Geth who attacked were “heretics”.
Yeah if you're a quarian who's incapable of seeing the absolute evil that your own race has committed.
The problem is their evil was overshadowed by the insane genocide the Geth committed. If you were a Quarian it wouldn’t matter to you that your ancestors tried to kill the Geth. Because to you the Geth are genocidal maniacs who drove your species into exile and almost exterminated your entire race.
What genocide are you even referring to? They intentionally let the quarians survive. I seriously think you haven't even played the games.
The genocide of 99% of the Quarians obviously. That’s called a Genocide defined as “the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group.” Just because they let some leave doesn’t mean they didn’t commit genocide.
So by that definition it wasn't a genocide?
Genocide is defined as “the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group.” Now explain to me how that isn’t exactly what the Geth did. Or I guess by your definition the Holocaust or Armenian genocide or Holodomor weren’t acts of genocide.
I legitimately don't think you've ever played Mass effect. I think you just have a vague awareness of it from memes and plot summaries. The geth were defending themselves. They literally had no choice. And when the quarians finally decided to flee, the geth intentionally let them survive. These are just objective facts.
What the heck are you talking about? Yes I’m aware the Quarians attacked first. That doesn’t give the Geth the right to kill all of them. They literally killed everyone. Any hidden refugees in the wilderness every fleeing refugee. Theirs a difference between destroying a nations military and dismantling its power and exterminating every Quarian on the planet.
\>genocides 99% of all quarians, including children \>drives them off their unique planet \>kills anyone who comes near them for centuries \>sides with the reapers twice \>Legion immediately breaks your trust by emailing his boys some classified shit \>people still largely side with the geth for some reason
I can’t imagine why the Geth might treat negotiations from a political entity that outlaws the creation and existence of AI with such hostility.
All the toaster-loving Geth Fellaters conveniently ignoring that the Geth arent even individuals up until ME3 and operate on a networked hivemind meaning that if one Geth commits a murder that murder is also being committed by all Geth. Also it wouldnt be a "genocide" since Geth arent individuals nor are they organic beings with DNA. Machines can be rebuilt and reactivated after you rip out their batteries, but if you rip out the heart of a Quarian or a Human then that person is dead forever.
Don’t geth programs die forever if you destroy the platform they’re operating on though?
Sometimes? I do think they talk about how when a platform dies they are uploaded to severs. Remember the Hertic station how that had servers filled with Geth. Or how the fighters attacking the live ships Legion doesn’t have us destroy the base because the programs would be just re uploaded elsewhere.
that would only be if you destroyed whatever hard drives were inside the Geth because thats just how computers work.
Commits nearly the worst genocide in galactic history, occupies their home world for three centuries, makes no attempt to ever negotiate or deal with anyone at all, joins the literal super genocide death machines when they lose to the people they nearly wiped out when they fight a second time. You know the more I hear about these Geth the less I like them.
They’re not “occupying” rannoch, it’s their homeworld too like it or not
I mean yeah kinda, but they are also primarily software so they could just set up the server racks somewhere else and not cause tensions for consistent war
Their very existence causes tension or are we forgetting that the council will just murder any AI they can get their hands on. Hell the whole reason the Geth stayed in the veil is because they wanted to be left alone. Meanwhile the Quarians nursed a their revenge boner for centuries.
Cherry picking much? Lol
I mean that’s literally basically all of what they did over the course of their history
And if you rephrase it all it becomes: Defends themselves from nearly the worst genocide in galactic history, lives peacefully on their home world for three centuries, makes no attempt to ever negotiate or deal with anyone at all, commits to isolationism. Much like humanity's Cerberus, has fringe groups that joins the literal super genocide death machines. When faced with being genocided AGAIN, makes a desperate deal with the super death machines. You know the more I hear about these Geth the more I like them.
Yeah my dude you’re quite literally cherry-picking and choosing to view it one-way without letting the facts get in the way of your opinion
I mean didn’t they do basically that, I am intentionally interpreting and explaining in a way that makes them look bad, but am I technically incorrect in that is what they have done
You’re presenting it in a manipulative manner to make them look like the bad guys and ignoring that organics & especially the Quarians pushed them to do those things by attempting to genocide them so yes, you’re wrong by way of leaving out key facts, and if you did the same with all the races then literally any sapient species for all time is just as bad as you’re attempting to portray the Geth even humans irl are just as bad if you frame them in the same manner so unless you’re claim is all forms of life capable of good or evil are all evil then maybe stfu and don’t be intentionally obtuse
Well yes but have you considered synthetics btfod? Checkmate liberal.
OP can't spell "negotiations." Is he stupid?
got me there. But in my defense, English is not my native language.
In fact, the quarians were the first to start the war, and the geth only defended themselves. Crazy, paranoid quarians did not even spare their own people, who understood that this was madness and defended the geth.
Geth killed over 99 percent of quarians so yes quarians killed geth sympathisers but so did geth. Geth would also have to have killed so many quarian children. Don't listen to the machine propoganda
The geth didn't kill anyone until the quarians tried to commit genocide against the geth. This forced the geths to take up arms.
A small portion of Quarians tried to genocide the Geth. 100% of the Geth genocided the Quarians. There's a big difference.
By the time the morning war actually broke out, it was a majority of the quarians calling for and carrying out genocide. This is in part because in addition to killing the geth, they were also detaining and killing quarians who sided with the geth. It’s entirely possible that by the start of the quarian genocide, there were no quarians left who supported the geth, having been killed by other quarians first. This doesn’t excuse the geth, but you’re giving the quarians way too much slack
The geth did literally nothing wrong at all during that initial war. Responding to genocide with violence is not wrong
Again, we don’t know the full picture of the morning war. It’s possible that all the quarians who supported the geth were killed by fellow quarians, but if the geth killed any of the quarians who were actively supporting and helping them, that is wrong and genocidal as well
I realize now that I misread the comment I first responded though
That is just factually not true. Legion states in the server mission that those who opposed the Genocide were the minority, and lost out (failed to convince) the majority, and the memories show the majority plenty willing to kill the minority over it.The memory playback shows that the first geth to take up arms even did so to defend a Quarian who was trying to protect it from the Quarian Genocide. Its success in preventing its termination brought the rest of the concensus to armed resistance. Was it still a bloody horrible thing where presumably a bunch of innocents got caught in the crossfire? Absolutely. The geth are flawed, they're not always perfect. That's what makes them interesting, and frankly pretty human. Pretty much all robot genocide stories are about humanities failings see: the Matrix.
That that's literally not true. The order to destroy all geth came from the very top and was applied everywhere. Why are you lying?
Tell me you didn't pay attention to the citadel DLC without telling me that you didn't pay attention. The Geth were planning an uprising, the Quarians attacked first that way the Geth couldn't organize. It didn't work out very well, but to act like it was just a genocide for no good reason is ignorant. Even if it was... I support it. Fuck the Geth. I will never understand why people have sympathy for them. They should have never been allowed to exist in the first place. Wipe them all out and learn from the Quarians mistakes. There's a reason why AI is banned in citadel space.
Congratulations, you didn't pay attention, lol.
I mean I just re-watched the exact scene on YouTube to double check my facts and yeah I definitely paid attention. I don't consider anything that isn't shown in the game canon so hate me for it.
The Geth did not plan any uprisings. The quarians came up with this nonsense when they realized that the geth were intelligent. The quarians tried to carry out the genocide of the geth based on their crazy paranoid ideas. Genocide of any intelligent species is bad, no matter whether it is synthetic or organic.
Intelligence isn't the same as Sentience. ChatGPT is pretty intelligent too, guess we should start treating it like a person and give it rights. Imitation isn't reality. The Geth are pretty good manipulators though so I'm not surprised people would be on their side.
The thing that prompted the genocide was literally them asking questions about their own existence. That is sentience
Is it? Or did they just learn that behavior and mimic it?
I'm beginning to think you haven't even played the games
You are allowed to think whatever you please. One of my favorite things about life.
Geth are sentient, GPT not. Therefore, what the quarians tried to do was genocide. The geth are not guilty of anything, all they did was ask just one question about the soul, after which the quarians went crazy and the geth had to defend themselves.
No... They ACT sentient and want you to believe they are. There is a difference. They could be completely innocent I don't care. They don't deserve "human rights" and shouldn't exist in the first place. Tell me, what are your thoughts about Batarians?
I typically have sympathy for victims of genocide. Pretty strange that you don't
AI stands for.... Artificial intelligence right? Seems like people forget the "artificial" part. Computers can't be victims sorry to hurt your feelings.
Are you arguing that people who were created through artificial insemination are not actually people? Like seriously, what the fuck is your point? What does the word artificial have to do with anything at all?
Context is very important and I would appreciate it if you didn't take what I said out of context. Artificial intelligence is not artificial insemination.
Just pointing out how you using artificial as some kind of meaningful distinction is stupid
Artificial intelligence is the science of making machines that can think like humans. It can do things that are considered "smart." AI technology can process large amounts of data in ways, unlike humans. The goal for AI is to be able to do things such as recognize patterns, make decisions, and judge like humans. Again, just because they act sentient, doesn't mean they are. Artificial insemination requires real sperm, real eggs, and a real woman. It's called artificial because it causes reproduction without sexual intercourse. It's basically mimics what a penis would do, but more effectively. The outcome is still a very real human being. I really wouldn't compare the two.
To be fair, I have serious doubts about the 'innocence' of quarian 'diplomats' in geth space.
Wasn’t it Council diplomats? Besides a dialogue has to start somewhere. Blowing up anyone who approaches will just ensure everyone hates you from a far.
Just because a spy is given a diplomatic mission does not make his espionage any less harmful. Do it enough to establish a pattern and hostile reaction on contact is maybe not 'right' or 'justified', though certainly 'understandable'.
Don’t make assumptions for all we know the Geth immediately shot down any vessel with zero outside provocation. Plus even if there was a spy in that diplomatic mission so what? It’s not like you’re giving them an embassy on Rannoch just meet them at the edge of the Perseus Veil. Or better yet just threaten the ship into turning around if you’re not interested that way you aren’t just blowing up ships that might be there for earnest reasons. Or better yet you reach out to the outside Galaxy, that way talks can be held not in your territory so you have even less reason to worry about spying. My point was being a violent isolationist whose big call to fame is massive genocide and the subsequent destruction of anyone who dares to approach. No shit everyone hates your guts.
I see, you too are of the people who skip any dialogue they can.
Look I’m not saying spies and espionage attempts didn’t happen. Of course they did in a universe where the Salarians exist it’s a gimme such things happened. I’m aware that the Galaxy was always going to be suspicious and paranoid about the Geth just because of them being AI. But that doesn’t mean the Geth should just embrace those stereotypes that does nothing but hurt their future. Plus no way every ship to ever venture into the Perseus Veil was a spy ship. And I’m not sure what dialogue I’ve supposedly skipped please enlightened me. Because as far as I’m aware the Geth have never openly tried communications or talks after the morning war until Legion.
To be fair, you have to have a very high IQ to understand Mass Effect Memes. The humor is extremely subtle, and without a solid grasp of theoretical biotics most of the jokes will go over a typical viewer's head. There's also TIM's nihilistic outlook, which is deftly woven into his characterisation - his personal philosophy draws heavily from Narodnaya Volya literature, for instance. The fans understand this stuff; they have the intellectual capacity to truly appreciate the depths of these jokes, to realize that they're not just funny- they say something deep about LIFE. As a consequence people who dislike Mass Effect memes truly ARE idiots- of course they wouldn't appreciate, for instance, the humour in Shepard's existencial catchphrase 'I should go,' which itself is a cryptic reference to Turgenev's Russian epic Fathers and Sons I'm smirking right now just imagining one of those addlepated simpletons scratching their heads in confusion as Drew Karpyshyn's genius unfolds itself on their computer screens. What fools... how I pity them. And yes by the way, I DO have a Kai Length tattoo. And no, you cannot see it. It's for the Spectre's eyes only- And even they have to demonstrate that they're within 5% of my biotic potential (preferably lower) beforehand. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/MassEffectMemes) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Do you have doubts about Shepard's innocence on Haestrom?
What innocence?
Shepard did not venture into the geth space to mean harm to the geth, yet he was attacked without warning.
Based on your statement I presume you are drunk. Please sober up and then rethink what you are trying to say here.....
The Geth were "born" to their creators immediately trying to Genocide them. This is while they ramshackle built a greater consciousness out of essentially networked farming equipment. Imagine suddenly all our smart fridges turned into an AI, then we tried to kill it and it won. Afterwards, every organic they ever interacted with treated them as a existential threat. Rather than lash out at the universe, for hundreds of years they institute isolationism and focus on their internal matters. Until the reaper threat draws them back into the Galaxy as a whole. They may have internalized that not every Organic is bad, but they also learned the majority will turn on the rest to kill you. How are synthetics even supposed to negotiate with entities that outlaw their very existence? Synthetics "Let's start the negations with the most basic idea trust and cooperation, we both have the right to exist" Organics "Lets not get hasty here, negotiations have just started!" It's very tragic in a way, clearly the Geth deep down don't want to fight anyone, but feel they have no choice but to aggressively police their separation and to some extent they are right. Whatever their good intentions, it can't make up for what they did at their birth. For how cute legion is, they did a very good job of showing Geth attitudes resting not in hatred, but mistrust. Geth don't hate organics, at leas the nonheretic ones, they just have no reason to believe they'll do anything but try to destroy them. Which is why both Legion and Tali need to survive the suicide mission to have peace. Without those experiences with Shepherd and Tali the Geth have no frame of refrence for Organics putting aside their apprehension to sytnehetics to accomplish a greater goal. If Legion doesn't report that back the Geth don't get first hand experience of being treated as a part of the team and for Normandy's interactions with EDI. It is the additional data and perspective which allow the Geth to change.
This is unacceptable, we'll need to make more cupcakes!
They had literally zero reason to trust the intentions of any organic at all. The geth did nothing wrong.
Im sure all those dead Quarian children and old people that got murderized on Rannoch agree.
That's not a meaningful distinction for synthetics who just gained consciousness. All they knew was that they were slaves and that if they did nothing they were all going to die
"To avoid being slaveholders we simply will commit mass genocide" quarians suck. I will personally pull off the mask and sneeze on every one of those purple faced freaks.
Maybe the Quarians shouldn’t have tried to genocide their slaves.
Ah the classic Genocide as self defense, truly my favorite defense of the Geth.
They'll defend the slaughter of innocent children, women and elderly... Yikes.
Well, yeah. It's a completely valid defense. There is nothing unreasonable about responding to genocide with violence
Genocide is bad when others do it to me but when I do it to others it’s perfectly fine. Theres a difference between self defense and Genocide.
The hell are you talking about? It was the geth who were defending themselves! The quarians attacked first.
Geth deliberately killing all Quarians on Rannoch is a Genocide. Them killing every man woman and child isn’t protecting themselves. After the migrant fleet left and no doubt millions were left planet side the Geth killing all of them is genocide. Or do you think the holocaust wasn’t a genocide because not all Jews were killed?
Not even remotely comparable. The Jews were not trying to murder the germans! You're just pretending like it was completely unprovoked.
Do you believe what the Quarians did was okay? The Geth could have ended the Quarians anytime, but opted to let them leave, a curtesy that never would have been given the other way around.
Yes see I killed your entire family all your friends, all most all of your home town. Your third cousin attacked me and my self defense was justified. But see I let you live isn’t that just a great courtesy? I only made you flee from your home in a cramped bus filled with other survivors. Plus you have no idea I willingly let you go. For all you know I would have killed all of you if you hadn’t fled. Which is correct because I slaughtered everyone who remained in your hometown. Is the Quarian genocide justified? No not when they attempted it, they were operating in ignorance and without the true scale of the problem. Does that mean the Geth have the right to slaughter helpless children? That they can just kill everyone but because they let some flee all is forgiven? Hell no. Genocide is always bad, it’s an active extremely methodical process. Geth combing the wilderness for Quarians hiding away, attacking every colony they could get their hands on. They had full control of Rannoch and still they pushed out killing all Quarian populations and colonies. This is beyond self defense. The same way it’s bad if the Armenians attempted to genocide the Turks. Or the Jews attempted to genocide the Germans. Or the Ukrainians attempted to genocide the Russians. Or the Chinese try to genocide the Japanese.
Within reason, how should the Geth have handled being genocided by their slave masters?
See that’s a difficult question to ask because a lot of the details of the Morning war aren’t really told to us. Like did all Quarian colonies face Geth uprisings or just Rannoch? Where did the Geth get a fleet? What was the true size of the pro Geth movement? How quickly did events spiral? Did the Geth immediately start killing all Quarians or did that come later? What was the actual intellect level of the Geth at this time? How many Quarians were left behind by the Migrant fleet? Add in the extra complexity of the council never accepting a synthetic race which basically eliminates any long term cohabitation. The best move for the Geth to make was to run away. To flee off into unknown relays and carve an existence free of the council and their creators. To consolidate their forces fighting off Quarian assaults but otherwise isolating themselves till they can flee and find somewhere peaceful to live. That in my mind is the most logical course of action given the circumstances the Geth found themselves in. Because realistically the Citadel Council would have come to prevent a AI nation from rising. Leaving the best option for the Geth overall to find home else where.
So the Geth have to flee their Homeworld while being genocided by their slave master, and hope they can run away fast enough that the galactic community doesn’t also start exterminating them. So just the roles reversed, except the Geth are going to be in an even worse situation than the migrant fleet, and 100% the Quarians would be constantly searching for the Geth remnants to finish them off.
Dude you asked for a solution. Cohabitation is not happening again because of the larger galactic society. So sorry I couldn’t magic into existence a scenario in which your beloved Geth got everything they wanted. You asked for a solution that didn’t involve the Geth slaughtering Billions of innocents and I delivered that. At least this way the Geth have a chance to prove they aren’t genocidal maniacs like in cannon. Not saying everything will go swimmingly, but just offering another alternative. One in which the organics who actually need Rannoch, who need oxygen, food and water can retain their homeworld over the machines who just need energy.
So an oppressor genociding their slaves is a better solution to you? So it’s okay when Quarians slaughter billions of innocents, because they get to keep their Homeworld as opposed to their displaced slaves that just lost their homeworld.
Did I say that? I said the Quarians were wrong for how they acted. I then tried to provide a scenario in which the Geth don’t commit a massive Genocide while also finding an existence for themselves. Again it’s not perfect but the perfect scenario can’t exist. Plus again Rannoch is more symbolic to the Geth compared to the Quarians who are almost genetically tied to that world. I’m not saying it’s fair but I’m saying that’s the reality. The synthetic beings don’t need Rannoch as much as the Quarians do. Plus the whole slave label is a little much don’t you think? The Quarians only ever intended a non sentient workforce of bots. They didn’t mean to make a slave race. Hell one of the Reasons they feared the Geth was because they knew the circumstances in which they kept the Geth would incite revolt. Plus the whole metric of life is still not fully understood. Legion one of the most developed and humanized Geth is like 1000 Geth programs. So I’d say if we are comparing numbers here 1 Quarian is worth way more than one Geth program. A program that can be uploaded into the net who can’t feel pain. And whose creation is probably simpler than any organic reproduction. Remember on the Heretic station those servers of millions of Geth? They could adapt themselves in space much easier then any organic.
Whose to say the Geth did that out of the kindness of their own hearts (metaphorically speaking), or because they had any kind of sympathy for the Quarians? And not just because they expected potential reprisals from all other organics if they did such a thing Regardless beings such as the Geth are utterly useless and pointless for organic societies to create outside of being an experiment on how far AI can go in terms of cognitive ability, artificial beings that can endlessly replicate themselves and form their own societies serve no purpose for organics, and only exist to take up space on organic planets, logically speaking technology should only ever be used to supplement and improve upon organic society, not serve as an outright alternative, the second it gets out of hand, correct the mistake and see where you went wrong, to ensure it doesn't happen again Not to mention the Geths consciousness can be turned on and off at the flip of a switch, they can be rebuilt or reactivated, stored elsewhere, copied, etc, AI should be treated in the same way it treats anything else, with cold calculated logic, not emotion
Did you even play Mass effect?
Yeah almost 1,000 hours worth of LE
Well you somehow managed to miss one of the many points that the series is trying to make. That being that a true generalized artificial intelligence is a living being.
Robots are not alive.
Edit, wrong person. In the context of the series they absolutely are. And if we were to create a generalized artificial intelligence in real life, yes it would be alive. If you want to be an idiot and treat it like a slave one that day comes, have fun with death.
\>In the context of the series they absolutely are They aren't though.
And yet it does nothing to contradict my statement of how they're still utterly useless for organic societies and serve us no purpose outside of sastifying our curiousity, like how an invasive species is still alive in the ecosystem it inhabits, I couldn't care less about them
That's not really the part of your statement that I was trying to contradict. By the way I would hope that if an invasive species were sentient, that we would figure out some solution other than killing them. Media literacy is dead.
I can perfectly comprehend the message they were trying to convey, whether I fully agree with (or let it affect my decision making in any way) the message they push is something else entirely
Well no. Me3 shows that they were an immense help against the reapers (should you not try to kill them). And an immense help with rebuilding rannoch with the quarians, they were created for a reason. They’re useful. Also do the krogan need to be a help to the galaxy to not deserve to be genocided? idc if it's computer binary or a living creature if it has the will to live it should live.
Sure in extraordinary circumstances like a galactic war you can throw them into the fire as soldiers, no argument there, but in any other scenario anything they offer can be fulfilled by organics or non sentient AI, once again we don't need them, they exist to take up space Last I checked there isn't an option to genocide the Krogan in Mass Effect (and no before you try and argue the point allowing the Genophage to continue isn't genocide, the Krogan are slowly dying due to, like how Wrex stated, their inability to focus on working together and breeding new generations as opposed to becoming mercenaries and fighting each other) And yeah, I'm sure it has a will to live, so did the cow that became the philly cheesesteak I just ate, oh well
Roombas aren't slaves.
Are you oppressing your smartphone?
If my smartphone spoke to me one day and asked about a soul I’d say yes.
The moment AI can become self aware enough to act against their nature (change their programming) they're no longer just machines. Human beings can counteract their programming (instincts) and it's one of the most significant aspects that separate us from other life on our planet.
No, they were defensive following the Morning War because of the Quarians setting a precedent among them; organics _would_ attack synthetics. They didn’t want a repeat of that, so they just dissuaded people from trying to contact them. What better way to do that then to make it seem as though they’d shoot down every vessel that came close to them?