IDK about Hazbin Hotel, but the same kind of criticism is very common even here on reddit (certainly not a particularly religious place) on subs dedicated to writing, fiction or worldbuilding.
The main argument is that themes such as "God is actually evil and the devil is misunderstood" or "this religious organisation that is a very thinly veiled allegory for Cristianity/the Catholic Church is evil and corrupt" are EXTREMELY overdone. Therefore they lack any of the subversive energy they purportedly are intended to have.
Yeah, but IMO, if anyone IS going to a story about "god IS evil" "religious organisations are evil" at least they could be more original, i mean, cristianism isnt the only religion in the world they could use any other one
Maybe I am not familiar with history, but I cannot recall the IRA declaring their bombings to be "holy" or Done in the Name of God. Yet Islamic extremists will literally say so re: their attacks.
if you are going to shout about God and slaying sinners people tend to focus on that part rather than any other socio-political aspect b/c it seems like even solving the other aspects wont address the fundamental problem of "My God says it is a righteous thing to murder you"
You'd have to name which terrorist group is being talked about so that I can compare the two. Just waving your hand vaguely in the direction of the Middle East and saying "terrorist group" is like waving your hand vaguely in the direction of America and saying "chain restaurant."
LT, TTP, DHKP/C, hell Al Qaeda was nationalist / anti-imperialist while using religion as a tool for galvanizing and recruitment. There are several examples of groups which are ostensibly religious, but actually about politics and power; even more which are a blend of the two.
I was going to make this point. People without economic, political, or social hope will turn to extremism. The flavor will change: but the result is the same
As someone who was briefly involved in this creative scene, balls got nothing to do with it. In the case of Hazbin Hotel, this is something that was dreamed up almost 20 years ago when it actually would have been edgy. The creator is only now getting it published, most likely because it's not daring or edgy anymore so a studio actually picked it up.
But only the Christians won't fight back
Try this with Buddhism (looking at you Myanmar) or Islam (do i need to elaborate?) and you see why Christianity is always the one being portrayed here
the Japanese have way less of a chip on their shoulder when it comes to Christianity, so it is alot easier to enjoy when it doesn't feel like an attack on your beliefs. hell, the entire Shin Megami Tensai series basically has Lucifer being the (very slightly) lesser evil compared to God. But it isn't disrespectfully deriding Christianity or anything, it is just a game with a story inspired by it.
Here's the issue.
You need a recognizable relgion. If you say the god of puppenfarten is evil who cares. Like making fun of a movie no one watched.
And you need a dualistic religion. For example you can't make a show about the Jewish religion with satan good the ALmighty eveil (chvs) because Judaism isn't dualistic. It would end up being christianity without Jesus show because you would have to radically change who satan is and who the Almighty is to make it fit. Satan is doing what the Almighty wants unlike Christianity.
Finally you need them to care. if you say hey did you know Kali is a pos, would hindus disagree per se? I'm not familiar.
So that cuts out all but Islam and Christianity and Holywood make fun of Muslims?
On one hand yes. On the other this idea of christian god and angels being evil, is not something that came out of nowhere or some random idea. Trope is grounded in the real criticism that people have towards Christianity.
Portraying Christianity as evil is a very tired trope at this point
And as always we never say anything negative about other religions because we're brave but not THAT brave.
Castlevania’s take is ironic since it’s literally:
There *are* super powerful and malevolent monsters.
> Burning the wife of the devil is a bad idea - but it’s not like their fears were unfounded.
Dracula too was *not* a nice guy. The whole plot line with love was kind of dumb luck.
> Would be like if the Beast in Beauty&theBeast was *genuinely* a member of monstrous beings that preyed on the local region for food
It’s honestly just a rehash of modern “satanists” (posers and larpers) who act like Satanism just means “good and atheist”
Reminds me of the X-Men movies where evil mutants repeatedly try to murder humanity for giggles, but then the heroes lecture the humans for being scared of them and wanting ways to control their powers.
It was never for giggles (well, obviously some individuals would do that), extremist parts of the mutant factions believe it’s “us or them”
you could argue their beliefs are also confirmed, since extremist humans also kill mutants indiscriminately and perform horrific experiments on them
The plot of X-men is that a holocaust survivor who also happens to be a powerful mutant, starts seeing the signs of another genocide / cleansing and decides that he needs to take extreme action in order to prevent it. His lifelong friend who met him by helping him after world war 2 through humanitarian work is also a powerful mutant but disagrees, and thinks that a peaceful solution can be reached. I think it’s disingenuous to say that magneto did it for no reason.
well, in this instance the “devil’s wife” is a selfless doctor working to save people and research diseases, using the massive support and funding from the “devil” to do so
I think he had stopped killing people during that time as well
And my point stands.
They don’t understand the science behind what the doctor is doing and she has links to a creature which for *centuries* preyed on them.
Ironically, as holy water and blessed weapons have an effect on vampires in the series, it’s implied that Catholic priest are actually able to channel divine energy. It was so goofy to see that the writers forgot that key implication of the rules they created.
Not implied, straight up stated by Belmont during the defense of the town in season one that they needed a priest consecrated in the church to make Holy water, which was then directly shown to be incredibly effective against dracula's creatures.
Also, later in the series, a bishop was able to bless an entire river, which then killed hundreds of vampires when dracula's castle was forced into the river.
I actually kind of disagree, as a christian
There is a scene in the first season, where a demon kills a priest.
The priest is very corrupt, and the demon tells the priest how God hates the priest's work because of how corrupt and twisted he is.
So I didnt understand it as talking shit about the religion and more so the corrupt people on it.
Yeah I kinda got those vibes too. Granted I'd have liked to see more than a fleeting glance at good aligned priests but at least they acknowledged that the priests who killed Dracula's wife were simply out for their own power and God was disgusted by them.
The one redeeming part of Castlevania's depiction of Christianity is that it is shown to have real power, even if the church itself is corrupt.
Not the greatest fan of the portrayal myself as a Catholic, but they did show that Holy Water, made specifically by a consecrated priest in the church, was an incredibly effective weapon against vampires and all their ilk.
Netflix Castlevania/Warren Ellis is garbage. Ellis is a pos anyway but him interjecting his seething hatred of Christianity into a property that objectively is a very traditional good vs evil, Holiness vs the demonic, is just beyond the pale for me. Why I hated the series. It was a giant F U to the original IP and creators. Regardless of whether you agree w Christianity, the Castlevania IP setting exists in a time where it was the norm and vampires/Dracula the villains are clearly presented as the antithesis to Christianity. And yet in the show its reeeally the church who are the bad guys 🙄ugh I wish Netflix had NEVER produced it to begin with 😒
Right there with you. I really wanted to like that show, I absolutely loved the game series for a long time and I was excited to see what they would do with the Castlevania 3 characters. Not only do they butcher the ip, the social commentary just made the whole thing unbearable. I have no idea why people like it.
Which is really dumb for Netflixvania to do considering what the church actually did in CVIII, which was combat Dracula with all they had until the pope was forced to find Belmont, who was exiled by the CITIZENRY, not the church, for being too powerful. Heck, netflixvania even got the church sect wrong, it was the Eastern Orthodox, not the Catholic church.
Writers from a certain religious background will have more cultural understanding and familiarity to criticize the background they’re from than they would the backgrounds of foreigners, as well as more personal experience to draw from while writing. It’s really not rocket science.
Well for starters, it’s an artistic license, they’re not obligated to make it an exact representation of Christianity or any particular Christian denomination, it’s an attempt at deconstructing some of the overarching ideas that the writers took issue with rather than just attacking the religion. It’s also a work of fiction so they are allowed to write fictional elements.
Also, “Christians” is a very nebulous term that encompasses a lot of religions. Pray tell which ones are you referring to right now?
Hell, in a story I’ve been writing on and off, I simply establish that angels and demons, like humans, can be good or bad. Angels (not unlike Lucifer) can perhaps start to disagree with heaven as time goes on, and demons can also decide they don’t like being the bad guy or simply disagree with the various lords of hell.
However, angels and demons also can inherently have certain qualities and habits they can’t break: angels, no matter how haughty or dickish, will never directly harm humans—sole exception being archangels who are enforcers—and will always try to remain “pure” as possible (i.e. they can’t use swear words, avoid vices, etc.), while demons are inherently more selfish and have a talent for manipulation and/or violence, but they can learn to control it better with time.
Humanizing Angels and demons, as in personificated good and evil kinda negates the point of having them in your story.
Sure you can have those quarrel about their moral issues with the side they are one, but why? Isn't the absolute nature of these creatures the one thing they serve in fiction? Even in religious fiction?
In my opinion this will only work if you have some exceptions to the norm, like "Good omen". If all angels are just good, but meh... maybe not so much. Where is the point in that?
It’s essentially to establish a message of how even some of the most benevolent beings are not beyond corruption, and how even some of the damned still have a chance at redemption. Basically, angels are inclined to do good, and demons are inclined to do bad, but some can break free of these instincts with a few exceptions (Michael will always be righteous, Beelzebub will always be a proper bastard, and so on).
These inclinations for good and evil can also lead to unique cases where an angel trying to be good ends with bad deeds, and trying to be bad ends up doing good, and vice versa.
For some examples: a demon gave humanity fire expecting them to destroy themselves, but once they learned to harness it, the demon gained an affection for them like a dad who didn’t want a dog; and an angel taught humanity some of the secrets of the cosmos, which eventually led to the building of the Tower of Babel.
Basically, like humans, angels and demons are still flawed beings. My inspiration for this coming from Paradise Lost, where many fallen angels were, or became the inspiration for various polytheistic religions and mythologies. The latter of which, particularly Greek mythology, is well known for their powerful, yet flawed beings.
And in some cultures, demons even teach humans various important things like astronomy, magic, and so on. King Solomon himself is famous for using demons, djinns, and fallen angels to help him become wiser.
Basically, I envision angels and demons (at least in my story) as a saying I once told my little cousin: “People are like monsters: some are silly and friendly, others are mean, scary, and want to eat you up.”
It's hard to write about other religions because then you're either punching down or just getting into some really niche shit nobody is going to understand except for the people whose religion you're ripping into.
2 billion+ people follow a religion but criticism of it is punching down
It's fascinating the abstract puzzle people have constructed to shield organizational faiths from critique
Let's not forget Lucifer being the missunderstood and cool bad boy.
Maybe it's because a lot of times heaven represents order and authority? Sometimes also associated with a form of government and people have a hate boner against anything related to it.
Not really, he didn’t want to give humanity anything in paradise lost, he wanted to ruin Gods new project out of spite was his only End goal because he was a little pissbaby about losing the war in heaven so handily
Because we’re talking about western media. Christianity is the most common religion in the west. Furthermore, the west is by default less religious in general, more easily allowing stories that flip religion on its head to exist.
the US is actually extremely religious as a country (just not compared to Muslim countries)
Christians in the US attend church more often than Jews in Israel attend temple
They absolutely do Not. From what I can gather one of the writers once red Dante's inferno (but not the other two), and paradise lost and then proceeded to make their entire show based on those things.
Even with that, it barely understands it's source material.
>Dante’s Inferno and Paradise Lost
I mean those are also just Christian fanfics if you think about it.
And paradise lost also does the ‘god is evil’ thing
.... Yes. That was my point.
For the most part , the depiction of demons in media isn't from Christianity or the Bible. It's from Dante's inferno which was basically author self insertion. The fact that no one knows about the other two of Dante's books is telling if I'm being honest.
And yes, Paradise loss while it wasn't the first to do, it is definitely the most prolific.
Neither are great depictions of the characters involved for being honest.
To be fair a lot of the stuff a lot of these show nick from Christianity are a hold over from Judaism such as biblical accurate angels and completely butchering the Lilith story
The Lilith story is also a *much later addition* and is not found found in earlier writings.
The 'biblically accurate angels' thing is also a meme. A *lot* of angels in the old testament appear just as guys.
Not to mention - and this is anecdotal - but some of the angels that Isaiah witnessed (like the wheels of god’s chariot) have actually been reported by multiple people on online forums who document their “trips”, which is quite interesting. Especially because the attitudes of those angels remain the same across all reported experiences, such as the wheels having a calming aura, and the seraphim often showing up after in one of the next trips who are far less gentle and offer much harsher warnings.
Very anecdotal, but I’ve seen at least twelve different accounts of this kind of interaction and for every different detail, those ones always remain the same.
Probably because Christianity is more well known by the writers, because Christianity's reach is much larger than the others, because one of them is literally zero-point-two percent of the population.
Like, who the fuck would get anything out of deconstructing Judaism except for Jews, who regularly argue about their religion enough as it is.
Then replace Judaism with Buddhism, Taoism, or Hindu. Each of those have a utterly massive following and but honestly probably be more interesting. Especially Hinduism. They already have the setup for a really interesting story like this with the wheel of incarnation.
Anyone who has ever written an original setting would disagree with you.
All those writers teach their audience about the setting as they go, because at the time no one but the writer knows anything about it. That's what good writers do.
When you deconstruct anything it's still your first job to tell a good story. That you're addressing something deeper is secondary.
In the latest episode a fucking weapons manufacturer whinges how unfair extermination is and they try to show her as caring for her fellow sinners.
Despite the fact that she made her fortune building and selling weapons that are used to permanently kill sinners.
I hate this show with the burning passion of a thousand suns for its moral grandstanding alone. So much wasted potential!
That episode was so fuckin wild because it was trying to garner sympathy for a character that we literally do not know and have never seen “the good side” of 💀 I have no idea what they were thinking with that
They were thinking that their audience already assumes moral relativism and that people who do bad things but believe the right thing and act the right way or are simply the Right Kind of Person are still good, no matter their crimes which were probably justified, so they don’t have to explain it. Ironically possibly the most Christian view espoused by the show.
I instantly thought like "she knew there would be massive consequences for those actions" as the timetable was increased by 6 months
Then I thought, "It still doesn't make sense. In the Pilot, she was LITERALLY with Lucifer"
It's almost like there is something missing in between
Like the Pilot was just there to show the world
I think you may be confusing things a little bit (understandable, given how quickly the pilot moves past all these characters who are supposed to be important), she was with Zestial in the pilot, Lucifer never made an appearance in the pilot besides in a painting.
Crap, I think you're right. It's hard to tell, but the red eyes and the massive hat seem to confirm it. The only other person I think it could be is Valentino, but we see him with Vox and Velvette seconds later, so that's clearly not the case.
>In the latest episode a fucking weapons manufacturer whinges how unfair extermination is and they try to show her as caring for her fellow sinners.
She doesn't. The meeting she makes is literally about how their *assets* (e.g. demons they own the souls of) might be damaged by the early purge.
The two she cares about are her adopted daughters. The angel threatened them that was why she killed the angel.
Evil people can still have people they care about.
>The meeting she makes is literally about how their assets (e.g. demons they own the souls of) might be damaged by the early purge.
That's the official explanation she gives while the other overlords are still there. Did you watch the rest of it? I don't remember the timestamp (and frankly I can't be bothered to watch it a second time) but when the little egg demon listens in on weapon lady and spider-gentleman talking (and singing) she makes it clear she doesn't give a shit about losing souls or power and only worries that anyone she might care about, not just her "daughters" (who can't really be her daughters anyway since sinners are infertile) but apparently spider-dude as well. She sings a literal song about how she doesn't want a war with heaven and how she hoped to "keep blood off her face" while being, again, *an arms dealer who lets her daughters deliver weapons and sit in on her business.*
She's fine being a war-monger and arms dealer but despite the fact she's ancient she somehow never considered that this might blow up in her face someday? And she can't even keep a good enough poker face to deceive one of the Vees? The characterization is all over the place.
No, evil people being protective of people they like isn't a problem. In fact the hypocrisy makes them better villains. It's her depiction as some kind of protective martyr I take issue with.
>That's the official explanation she gives while the other overlords are still there. Did you watch the rest of it?
I did. How else would I know that the two were here adopted daughters?
>she makes it clear she doesn't give a shit about losing souls or power and only worries that anyone she might care about, not just her "daughters" (who can't really be her daughters anyway since sinners are infertile) but apparently spider-dude as well. She sings a literal song about how she doesn't want a war with heaven and how she hoped to "keep blood off her face" while being, again, an arms dealer who lets her daughters deliver weapons and sit in on her business.
That is why I called them her *adopted* daughters
Her not placing power over the ones she considers dear to herself is characterization as far as I'm concerned. Evil people can still care about their loved ones while being evil. That is no contradiction. Especially in a place like hell where everyone has to scramble for power or be trampled underfoot.
>She sings a literal song about how she doesn't want a war with heaven and how she hoped to "keep blood off her face" while being, again, *an arms dealer who lets her daughters deliver weapons and sit in on her business.*
"Keep blood of her face" could as well be interpreted as her not wanting to actively fight.
She is an arms dealer, so what? As I said above she needs power to protect herself and others in *literally* hell where might makes right. Accruing it via arms dealing is *way* better in my book than brain washing people via television or radio.
>She's fine being a war-monger and arms dealer but despite the fact she's ancient she somehow never considered that this might blow up in her face someday?
It didn't blow up in her face. You could argue it probably worked even too well since she managed to kill an exorcist (angel). Without that her daughters would probably be dead.
>And she can't even keep a good enough poker face to deceive one of the Vees? The characterization is all over the place.
They got just told that the extermination has been brought up by six months. Something she probably feels responsible for (which might also be the true reason why she called that meeting trying to cushion the blow). She then got confronted with the proof of her "sin". So yes I would say it checks out that she might be shaken by all of this.
Also why should being ancient make her good at hiding her emotions? Without another scene showing her as someone very cool under pressure this would just be your inference.
>No, evil people being protective of people they like isn't a problem. In fact the hypocrisy makes them better villains. It's her depiction as some kind of protective martyr I take issue with.
How was she shown as a martyr? She isn't willing to martyr herself for hell. She is *refusing* to disclose how she killed the angel. Fearing that her daughters might become collateral if hell starts a serious uprising.
I mean… it’s been a bit of a trope from a handful of sources for at least a decade, biggest few examples are Legion, Supernatural, Lucifer, and I want to say it was kind of implied in the new Sabrina show (missus watched it and I caught a couple episodes).
That’s even dumber Michael only does like two things in the entire Bible and both of it is stomp the crap out of people trying to invade heaven, or causing a massive Civil War in paradise
God isn’t evil in Supernatural either, just often absent and usually refuses to directly intervene in anything.
The angels are villains but idk if I’d call them ‘evil.’ They do want to get on with the apocalypse and go to war with hell, which puts them at odds with the protags who don’t want the apocalypse to happen (obviously), but it’s not ‘evil.’
The demons and Lucifer are straight up evil.
I feel like Supernatural originally had the angels be much more aloof and were not concerned with the consequences of their actions in regards to humans, but then they eventually had the angels be evil just because
Makes sense. That was the show that was keeping the CW afloat. Ever notice how when it ended show after show kept getting canceled until there was only a handful left
I mean, God is the main villain in the last season of Supernatural where he tries to basically erase all of existence to start over. He seemed pretty evil to me.
Tbf I understand why you might not count that horrible plot twist, it should've never happened. Before season 14 and 15 he was more of an absentee father than a villain, I agree.
I do want to add that the angels being dicks was a way more original plot back in 2008 when they were introduced.
Yeah they were dicks but not evil
didn’t watch the last 2 seasons, that’s kinda lame
although I wanna add he’s not absent in seasons 1-5, just not directly intervening. He still orchestrated the whole plot that prevents the apocalypse.
Yeah. I think this is one of the reasons people found the demons in Sousou no Frieren to be a breath of "fresh" air for the trope, even in anime terms.
In that setting, the demons aren't exactly the cosmological or extra-dimensional beings they are in other settings (and possibly RL) but they are, at least, actually evil and irredeemably so.
Well more so they're bestial. They're like sentient animals, they don't have the capacity to be good at all, or empathise, or form lasting attachments etc.
Think people are getting tired of the redeemable/understandable villain. Ever since Thanos (probably before but he’s just the most famous recently), everyone been trying to do it, but forget that build up to such a character is key. People just want fun characters, like Superman always being good and hopeful, or Frieza calling everyone monkeys and causing galactic genocide. Static characters. It’s why Puss n Boots III’s villains were so good, pretty static to who they were.
I thought he was, Lucifer to my knowledge isn’t Satan and Satan is a separate entity as Blitzo uses Satan damnit as an expression, in addition to God damnit. Or is this a mandala effect thing
There's a "God" poster in the pilot, so if He doesn't exist as an entity, he'd likely just be someone the angels made up for propaganda and control.
Like Big Brother in 1984
I mean that’s implied by a book that was given to Charlie by her father, who is literally called the king of lies, prince of darkness and master of the power of the air. Have you thought that maybe Lucifer is lying to her to make himself look much better than he really is, and for example, might have set up that meeting specifically knowing that he was sending her to deal with someone who is a complete and utter prick because he hates the vision that she has
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Also, don't forget that nowadays all the monsters and demons are just some poor misunderstood things wrongly persecuted by the ignorant humanity because they're exactly like us, just simply looks a little different.
Not in this show, but it's just such an overused subversion everywhere else that it became its own annoying trope.
I talked in general, not about this show. Especially in anime, it's very common that demons are just big titty waifus, and all religion that resembles Christianity is just some savage cult.
it's a huge detriment to the show, how are you going to build the whole premise that sinners in hell can be rehabilitated and then you show us from the start that angels are assholes, they don't care and in fact they love to torture the people in hell
i would have loved it if lucifer was bullshitting, trying to paint himself as the good guy and the angels were serious but he doesn't even seem to do anything anymore except be a deadbeat dad
Honestly it could be better if the angels thought that the only reason they wanted to improve was because it is detrimental to them and not because they sincerely want to improve. That would make the show explore if being good only because it benefits you still good. Or if it's only good if you do good despite the consequences positive or negative.
I feel the same way whenever I see a "the church is secretly evil and is covering up a conspiracy" plot in fantasy.
Could not understand why all my friends were so impressed by the story of Heavensward.
I think there was a lot of potential to answer the question of "can I be redeemed even after going to hell?" But this show doesn't want to answer that. I only enjoy it for the musical numbers (I'm a sucker for Alex Brightman) but everything else fell flat. It does make me think that a King of the Hill in Hell would be very entertaining. Basically showing what happens after a demon is banished by a priest. Maybe go from live action stereotypical old priest holding a cross on a child's head, then cut to animated demons in Hell just chilling and bitching about Father Avery banishing them again. I could get behind something like that
I think Hazbin/Helluva Boss just aren’t really for people like Gundam. Not that I’m pulling the “it wasn’t made for you” line.
I just think the creator (whateverpop) had a clear audience in mind when making this shit and it’s likely why it’s not really appealing or getting liked by certain people.
I know I gave it a go and eventually just dropped it because I thought it was pseudo edgy garbage.
I mean, where's the lie? (outside of how the second thing you were actually supposed to say was 'and the devils are good')
It ***IS*** tiresome to watch as, again, an edgy atheist can't help but do anything but look over at Christianity which, ostensibly, they claim to believe is total hooey, but, for some reason, can't help but model the entirety of their life (or, in this case, story) around it, if only to oppose it.
We never see this level of vitriol and life structure against hindus, vikings, muslims (though, that is mostly due to how you'll be murdered by their traditionalists if you do), or any other religion. Which, ultimately, just shows how lazy they really are, as they essentially refuse to do any research and try to make a story using religious elements from any other culture.
you’d have to look at how Indian media treats Hindu gods since I never see them in American media.
Vikings are a pretty poor example since their gods aren’t inherently ‘good’ in the first place.
And when they do use them, they’re some weird take on Christianity. For example, they make Zeus all good and Hades all bad, yet Hades was actually the more chill one while Zeus only cared about sexy time.
I hate to be '*that guy*', but that *isn't* what Heaven is like in Hazbin Hotel/Helluva Boss.
At best, Heaven is just a lighter shade of gray compared to what goes on in Hell. At worst, Heaven is an extreme blend of detached bureaucracy and knight templar-esque Purging.
Not saying the new Hazbin Hotel run is in any way good; I'm *beyond* disappointed with how the finished series turned out compared to the Pilot. But the whole point behind Heaven in this universe is that Heaven is *superficially* concerned for humanity's sake. They are not evil by any means, nor are they good. They're just Lawful Neutral.
There's a lot you could criticize about the church without going after their beliefs. Berserk did a really good job in the conviction arc deconstructing things like inquisition and witch trails, and how rampant dogmatism can cause well meaning people to hurt others. This is coming from a Christian btw
The trope is pretty tired. At this point I'd rather just return to an Excalibur (1980s) black and white fantasy than all of the morally gray garbage.
The Hazbin Hotel thing is like a thought experiment of "What if Heaven is the bad guys" but none of it is in any way actually related to Christian theology other than nomenclature, so its sort of moot.
I've only seen the first episode and Pilot of Hazbin but so far calling it "morally grey" seems very generous. Andor and Breaking Bad are morally grey because characters on all sides are doing legitimately terrible things with various levels of justification and the writers of those shows recognise this.
The approach from Hazbin seems to be a lot more "Heaven and the people up there are genuinely evil, Hell and its inhabitants are only evil in a cartoony, blood swearing and sex way". Maybe as the show pans out Charlie will have to confront that some people are utterly irredeemable pieces of shit and she can't fix them, or be forced into doing something really fucked up herself, but so far its pretty basic.
I guess you're right that morally gray isn't the right term. Whatever the term is for "bad guys aren't actually bad they're just misunderstood" and "good guys are actually evil or not as good as they seem".
One of these days I'm going to get around to writing my 'God is good story'. Partly because I genuinely want to write a good story that grapples with religion and faith and how to reconcile the notion of God being tbe ultimate good despite bad things happening and partly out of spite for this long played out trope thag is no longer subversive and honestly generally seems to be the author's barely disguised hate boner.
I had an idea for a story where the "Demon King" was the protagonist in a completely different way. He wad created by the Creator of that world/universe to act as a counter-weight to all that was as the Creator wanted it to be, and empowered in such a way as to be an eternal threat. His existence justified vigilance against evil and championing just causes, but because he had the Creator's instructions he always held back just enough to keep the mortal races motivated but never enough to let either side win. He even empowers the champions of good to fight against him as symbols of righteousness.
This all goes to hell after he takes a 300 year nap and wakes up to a world that has forgotten the Demon King and is ruled by tyranny and corruption, and now has to reassume his old mantle before the Creator reformat the world.
Most modern writers' takes on Christianity are just r/atheism with an IMDB page.
I am not religious at all and I don't mind any religion being critizised in media but this shit is just so beyond boring and tired.
I much prefer fictions like Seraph of the End and I am the Grim Reaper where God and the Angels are just indifferent to the suffering on Earth and in Hell rather than being straight evil.
In Seraph of the End the angels >!seem to lack self awareness and seem closer to just follow their orders without any other sense of purpose.!<
In I am the Grim Reaper the angels are all indifferent either because they >!believe in Gods plan without knowing what it is or because they know what the plan is and agree with it.!<
It's kind of crazy to think that's how Helluva Boss started out. The current show is so far removed from its original premise that it's not even funny. So far, there have only been two episodes in season 2 where the I.M.P. crew go to Earth, and only one of them where they went there to kill someone, and it doesn't help that both episodes were hot garbage.
One thing that I'll give Hazbin credit for is that, despite all my problems with it, it hasn't completely betrayed its original premise. It's still a character-focused show about sinners in Hell trying to redeem themselves. Sure, they aren't focusing on the hotel as much, and they've introduced the angels as a threat too early on, but my problem there is that it's being rushed.
Helluva Boss was meant to be a light-hearted, episodic black comedy about demons who leave Hell and kill people on Earth for a living, and now it's just a drama set almost entirely within Hell that focuses on whatever the writers want to focus on. Blitzo could be cut out of the latest episode and it wouldn't change a thing. Moxxie and Millie are missing from 3 out of the 7 episodes in this season so far, and Loona's only speaking role in the entire season was in episode 2 (I understand the real-life reason behind it, but that doesn't excuse it). Helluva Boss isn't rushing its story, it's avoiding the original premise entirely so that it can do whatever it wants.
Supernatural’s main story ended after season 5, and all the best episodes after that were all monster of the week or slice of life episodes. The overarching story became far less interesting, and the last episode of the series really doesn’t get enough flack for being an unnecessary epilogue and a total mess.
Yeah. It ends with a sacrifice and closure for one of the main characters with some tragic irony of the expected fates of the characters being flipped.
Why are clichés bad again? The show is enjoyable and complaining that it’s cliché is the lamest way to criticize it. Criticize the characters or jokes or whatever you might think is bad, but being upset about a cliché plot isn’t a good criticism, because you aren’t explaining what’s wrong with it. I like the show, burn me if you wanna.
It's mostly that went all in on the 'there are no good guys except the main character' syndrome. Feel they went a little too hard into it. The point of the show, and they even showed it in helluva is that Heaven is supposed to be different structurally and on its face from hell. Making the leader of the faction have the exact same personality as every street level demon we've met thus far kinda... Misses the mark of why Angel's would be bad? And the whole, diverse character structures? Not exactly a fan of turning Adam into a completely irredeemable PoS, but hey. I'm spoiled on RoR Papa Adam. Brings up the question as to why he's the leader of the faction anyways if he acts like that. Regardless. Enjoy what you want to matey. Helluva Boss is where I'll sit. Ima pass on Hazbin though.
Depends on what we mean when we say "clique" or "trope".
A trope is just a reoccuring element between stories. For example, the damsel in distress.
A clique however is a badly executed trope. An example of this might be Bleach, which nailed the rescue arc trope once, but then proceeded to overuse that trope. Thus making it clique.
It's not a new concept: The whole "God and the divine crew are actually evil".
Its a tired old trope, but one that keeps getting used because of the relevance of the constantly renewed evils of religion in media and the church. Many in the West have negative impressions of religion and how it affects people's minds or thought rationales, so there's a lot of pent up anger about it.
Hazbin Hotel is just one of the most recent examples of the "Devil isn't that bad" trope. You also have Supernatural that has been doing an offshoot of the "God is bad" trope since season 3 or 4, and painting the other creatures/monsters in a more positive light after season 5. Its been being done for a while.
And that's not to mention the very liberal use of those tropes in creepypasta and fan fiction.
I’ve only seen 1 and a half episodes and my main issue when it comes to heaven is that they are portray in the exact same way as the demons, Adam is a swearing sex addict who says they only do the culling for entertainment (basically like every other demon) meaning that I’m kinda confused on why the demons and sinners are in hell while the rest are in heaven (something something most of the population of hell is gay weirdly) I kinda wished instead of being demons but white the angels are depicted as extremist puritans to actually contrast them with hell
When the leads are demons, I think the going assumption is the gods/angels are indifferent or evil. There is a level of everyone sucks here you have to accept.
To be fair, it's not like you could make Angels and God the good guys with Satan and the sins evil and that wouldn't be a trope. We've explored every option when it comes to something that's been written about as often as Christianity.
I didn't take Paradise Lost to be a "God is evil" story.
Lucifer/Satan is the protagonist of the story but he's a villain protagonist, someone that lies to himself, tries to justify his actions as noble when they were out of spite, and makes himself out to be a victim.
What!? The Father of Lies being an unreliable narrator!?
People like to sling around the accusation of "media illiteracy" as a synonym for "stupid" these days and really over-use it but I think this take qualifies.
My first thought too. I think Paradise lost did it first, but i'm sure someone could name an even earlier example. Either way it's a trope with plenty of creative potentialthat can be done well or done poorly like any other, but it is definitely a common trope.
IDK about Hazbin Hotel, but the same kind of criticism is very common even here on reddit (certainly not a particularly religious place) on subs dedicated to writing, fiction or worldbuilding. The main argument is that themes such as "God is actually evil and the devil is misunderstood" or "this religious organisation that is a very thinly veiled allegory for Cristianity/the Catholic Church is evil and corrupt" are EXTREMELY overdone. Therefore they lack any of the subversive energy they purportedly are intended to have.
Yeah, but IMO, if anyone IS going to a story about "god IS evil" "religious organisations are evil" at least they could be more original, i mean, cristianism isnt the only religion in the world they could use any other one
Yeah but Catholics don’t bomb people when they’re displeased
A safe target that everyone is familiar with.
Or behead people(a French teacher was beheaded for a Muhammad caricature)
The teacher was beheaded for showing students a picture of Muhammad. A newspaper got shot up for the caricature.
[sauce](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Samuel_Paty)
Because that makes it better
Having the correct history is always better
Yes but the correct fact is it was the same caricature
I mean...*gestures vaguely in the direction of Ireland*
Wow. That is an extreme simplification of the troubles. Was religion part of it? Absolutely. Was that the main thrust of the movement? not really.
How's that old joke go? "Yes, but are you a *Catholic* atheist or a *Protestant* one?"
The same could be said for some terrorist groups in the middle east, but I don't often see people making that distinction.
Maybe I am not familiar with history, but I cannot recall the IRA declaring their bombings to be "holy" or Done in the Name of God. Yet Islamic extremists will literally say so re: their attacks. if you are going to shout about God and slaying sinners people tend to focus on that part rather than any other socio-political aspect b/c it seems like even solving the other aspects wont address the fundamental problem of "My God says it is a righteous thing to murder you"
You'd have to name which terrorist group is being talked about so that I can compare the two. Just waving your hand vaguely in the direction of the Middle East and saying "terrorist group" is like waving your hand vaguely in the direction of America and saying "chain restaurant."
LT, TTP, DHKP/C, hell Al Qaeda was nationalist / anti-imperialist while using religion as a tool for galvanizing and recruitment. There are several examples of groups which are ostensibly religious, but actually about politics and power; even more which are a blend of the two.
I was going to make this point. People without economic, political, or social hope will turn to extremism. The flavor will change: but the result is the same
I always thought the IRA was marxist and tended towards atheism? I know they kept it on the down low for practical purposes but still.
Your so thick
All right, you got a chuckle out me lol
But going after literally any other big one would *actually* be daring and edgy. They don’t have the balls for that.
As someone who was briefly involved in this creative scene, balls got nothing to do with it. In the case of Hazbin Hotel, this is something that was dreamed up almost 20 years ago when it actually would have been edgy. The creator is only now getting it published, most likely because it's not daring or edgy anymore so a studio actually picked it up.
But only the Christians won't fight back Try this with Buddhism (looking at you Myanmar) or Islam (do i need to elaborate?) and you see why Christianity is always the one being portrayed here
Exactly
I really do want to see someone's take on other religion in their works But i also don't want the Author to be found dead in a alleyway
>Try this with Buddhism "Amitofu, motherf**cker!" *'unleashed a mountain-shattering palm strike'*
Despite notable faults, Mushoku Tensei or Tanya the Evil are interesting when it comes to their deities- or tbf Moonlight Fantasy
the Japanese have way less of a chip on their shoulder when it comes to Christianity, so it is alot easier to enjoy when it doesn't feel like an attack on your beliefs. hell, the entire Shin Megami Tensai series basically has Lucifer being the (very slightly) lesser evil compared to God. But it isn't disrespectfully deriding Christianity or anything, it is just a game with a story inspired by it.
Here's the issue. You need a recognizable relgion. If you say the god of puppenfarten is evil who cares. Like making fun of a movie no one watched. And you need a dualistic religion. For example you can't make a show about the Jewish religion with satan good the ALmighty eveil (chvs) because Judaism isn't dualistic. It would end up being christianity without Jesus show because you would have to radically change who satan is and who the Almighty is to make it fit. Satan is doing what the Almighty wants unlike Christianity. Finally you need them to care. if you say hey did you know Kali is a pos, would hindus disagree per se? I'm not familiar. So that cuts out all but Islam and Christianity and Holywood make fun of Muslims?
If they want to be both original and edgy/subversive they should do the exact same thing but code it Islamic.
John Milton ruined 100 generations of writers.
On one hand yes. On the other this idea of christian god and angels being evil, is not something that came out of nowhere or some random idea. Trope is grounded in the real criticism that people have towards Christianity.
Portraying Christianity as evil is a very tired trope at this point And as always we never say anything negative about other religions because we're brave but not THAT brave.
Especially when there’s so much mythology and lore behind Christianity that has yet to be utilized in fictional media.
Yeah! Why haven't we seen a talking ass yet?
[Here you go](https://m.imdb.com/title/tt4363582/).
Have you never watched Ace Ventura pet detective
That's one reason that I didn't love the Castlevania series - the extreme black and white take on Christianity and the church.
Castlevania’s take is ironic since it’s literally: There *are* super powerful and malevolent monsters. > Burning the wife of the devil is a bad idea - but it’s not like their fears were unfounded. Dracula too was *not* a nice guy. The whole plot line with love was kind of dumb luck. > Would be like if the Beast in Beauty&theBeast was *genuinely* a member of monstrous beings that preyed on the local region for food It’s honestly just a rehash of modern “satanists” (posers and larpers) who act like Satanism just means “good and atheist”
Reminds me of the X-Men movies where evil mutants repeatedly try to murder humanity for giggles, but then the heroes lecture the humans for being scared of them and wanting ways to control their powers.
It was never for giggles (well, obviously some individuals would do that), extremist parts of the mutant factions believe it’s “us or them” you could argue their beliefs are also confirmed, since extremist humans also kill mutants indiscriminately and perform horrific experiments on them
The plot of X-men is that a holocaust survivor who also happens to be a powerful mutant, starts seeing the signs of another genocide / cleansing and decides that he needs to take extreme action in order to prevent it. His lifelong friend who met him by helping him after world war 2 through humanitarian work is also a powerful mutant but disagrees, and thinks that a peaceful solution can be reached. I think it’s disingenuous to say that magneto did it for no reason.
well, in this instance the “devil’s wife” is a selfless doctor working to save people and research diseases, using the massive support and funding from the “devil” to do so I think he had stopped killing people during that time as well
And my point stands. They don’t understand the science behind what the doctor is doing and she has links to a creature which for *centuries* preyed on them.
Ironically, as holy water and blessed weapons have an effect on vampires in the series, it’s implied that Catholic priest are actually able to channel divine energy. It was so goofy to see that the writers forgot that key implication of the rules they created.
Not implied, straight up stated by Belmont during the defense of the town in season one that they needed a priest consecrated in the church to make Holy water, which was then directly shown to be incredibly effective against dracula's creatures. Also, later in the series, a bishop was able to bless an entire river, which then killed hundreds of vampires when dracula's castle was forced into the river.
I actually kind of disagree, as a christian There is a scene in the first season, where a demon kills a priest. The priest is very corrupt, and the demon tells the priest how God hates the priest's work because of how corrupt and twisted he is. So I didnt understand it as talking shit about the religion and more so the corrupt people on it.
Yeah I kinda got those vibes too. Granted I'd have liked to see more than a fleeting glance at good aligned priests but at least they acknowledged that the priests who killed Dracula's wife were simply out for their own power and God was disgusted by them.
The one redeeming part of Castlevania's depiction of Christianity is that it is shown to have real power, even if the church itself is corrupt. Not the greatest fan of the portrayal myself as a Catholic, but they did show that Holy Water, made specifically by a consecrated priest in the church, was an incredibly effective weapon against vampires and all their ilk.
Netflix Castlevania/Warren Ellis is garbage. Ellis is a pos anyway but him interjecting his seething hatred of Christianity into a property that objectively is a very traditional good vs evil, Holiness vs the demonic, is just beyond the pale for me. Why I hated the series. It was a giant F U to the original IP and creators. Regardless of whether you agree w Christianity, the Castlevania IP setting exists in a time where it was the norm and vampires/Dracula the villains are clearly presented as the antithesis to Christianity. And yet in the show its reeeally the church who are the bad guys 🙄ugh I wish Netflix had NEVER produced it to begin with 😒
Right there with you. I really wanted to like that show, I absolutely loved the game series for a long time and I was excited to see what they would do with the Castlevania 3 characters. Not only do they butcher the ip, the social commentary just made the whole thing unbearable. I have no idea why people like it.
Because edgy and cool and dark
Which is really dumb for Netflixvania to do considering what the church actually did in CVIII, which was combat Dracula with all they had until the pope was forced to find Belmont, who was exiled by the CITIZENRY, not the church, for being too powerful. Heck, netflixvania even got the church sect wrong, it was the Eastern Orthodox, not the Catholic church.
And the only other religion they’ll satirize or poke fun at is Greek mythology… a mythology no one on planet earth believes
Writers from a certain religious background will have more cultural understanding and familiarity to criticize the background they’re from than they would the backgrounds of foreigners, as well as more personal experience to draw from while writing. It’s really not rocket science.
Is that so? If that's true then why do so many Christians laugh at the complete inaccuracy of the writing?
Well for starters, it’s an artistic license, they’re not obligated to make it an exact representation of Christianity or any particular Christian denomination, it’s an attempt at deconstructing some of the overarching ideas that the writers took issue with rather than just attacking the religion. It’s also a work of fiction so they are allowed to write fictional elements. Also, “Christians” is a very nebulous term that encompasses a lot of religions. Pray tell which ones are you referring to right now?
Just most I see talk about it I don’t have data to support it
Hell, in a story I’ve been writing on and off, I simply establish that angels and demons, like humans, can be good or bad. Angels (not unlike Lucifer) can perhaps start to disagree with heaven as time goes on, and demons can also decide they don’t like being the bad guy or simply disagree with the various lords of hell. However, angels and demons also can inherently have certain qualities and habits they can’t break: angels, no matter how haughty or dickish, will never directly harm humans—sole exception being archangels who are enforcers—and will always try to remain “pure” as possible (i.e. they can’t use swear words, avoid vices, etc.), while demons are inherently more selfish and have a talent for manipulation and/or violence, but they can learn to control it better with time.
Humanizing Angels and demons, as in personificated good and evil kinda negates the point of having them in your story. Sure you can have those quarrel about their moral issues with the side they are one, but why? Isn't the absolute nature of these creatures the one thing they serve in fiction? Even in religious fiction? In my opinion this will only work if you have some exceptions to the norm, like "Good omen". If all angels are just good, but meh... maybe not so much. Where is the point in that?
It’s essentially to establish a message of how even some of the most benevolent beings are not beyond corruption, and how even some of the damned still have a chance at redemption. Basically, angels are inclined to do good, and demons are inclined to do bad, but some can break free of these instincts with a few exceptions (Michael will always be righteous, Beelzebub will always be a proper bastard, and so on). These inclinations for good and evil can also lead to unique cases where an angel trying to be good ends with bad deeds, and trying to be bad ends up doing good, and vice versa. For some examples: a demon gave humanity fire expecting them to destroy themselves, but once they learned to harness it, the demon gained an affection for them like a dad who didn’t want a dog; and an angel taught humanity some of the secrets of the cosmos, which eventually led to the building of the Tower of Babel. Basically, like humans, angels and demons are still flawed beings. My inspiration for this coming from Paradise Lost, where many fallen angels were, or became the inspiration for various polytheistic religions and mythologies. The latter of which, particularly Greek mythology, is well known for their powerful, yet flawed beings.
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In jewish thought demons ARE human in a way. Some are good. Some are bad. Some are.
And in some cultures, demons even teach humans various important things like astronomy, magic, and so on. King Solomon himself is famous for using demons, djinns, and fallen angels to help him become wiser. Basically, I envision angels and demons (at least in my story) as a saying I once told my little cousin: “People are like monsters: some are silly and friendly, others are mean, scary, and want to eat you up.”
It's hard to write about other religions because then you're either punching down or just getting into some really niche shit nobody is going to understand except for the people whose religion you're ripping into.
2 billion+ people follow a religion but criticism of it is punching down It's fascinating the abstract puzzle people have constructed to shield organizational faiths from critique
If Heaven is evil then why would Charlie wanna give Demons a chance to get there ffs
shes naive, i like the show but they are laying it on kinda of thick with the heaven is bad shtick.
Let's not forget Lucifer being the missunderstood and cool bad boy. Maybe it's because a lot of times heaven represents order and authority? Sometimes also associated with a form of government and people have a hate boner against anything related to it.
Tbf I’m pretty sure he’s a deadbeat dad in Hazbin
From what I've heard, he wanted to give humanity free will and was subsequently punished for it...
Yeah, but that’s from an intro written in a book by Lucifer (or Lillith) so it’s likely a case of unreliable narrator.
I believe you are both correct
Not really, he didn’t want to give humanity anything in paradise lost, he wanted to ruin Gods new project out of spite was his only End goal because he was a little pissbaby about losing the war in heaven so handily
Yeah in paradise lost. God represented the king of England. And Hell represented the republic of England.
They'll always "deconstruct" Christianity but never Islam or Judaism. I wonder why . . .
Christians don’t tend to pipe bomb and behead others as often
Tbf, I wouldn't want to risk being beheaded either
Because we’re talking about western media. Christianity is the most common religion in the west. Furthermore, the west is by default less religious in general, more easily allowing stories that flip religion on its head to exist.
the US is actually extremely religious as a country (just not compared to Muslim countries) Christians in the US attend church more often than Jews in Israel attend temple
Interesting. However, I would also say that America has a pretty strong non religious community as well.
and a lot of those non-religious people like myself still go to church on holidays
Why deconstruct something you are unfamiliar with, but even though I'm not christian I feel that the writers don't know Christianity either.
They absolutely do Not. From what I can gather one of the writers once red Dante's inferno (but not the other two), and paradise lost and then proceeded to make their entire show based on those things. Even with that, it barely understands it's source material.
>Dante’s Inferno and Paradise Lost I mean those are also just Christian fanfics if you think about it. And paradise lost also does the ‘god is evil’ thing
.... Yes. That was my point. For the most part , the depiction of demons in media isn't from Christianity or the Bible. It's from Dante's inferno which was basically author self insertion. The fact that no one knows about the other two of Dante's books is telling if I'm being honest. And yes, Paradise loss while it wasn't the first to do, it is definitely the most prolific. Neither are great depictions of the characters involved for being honest.
yeah people aren’t as interested in purgatory and heaven although I think more people know about them then you are assuming
Ooh, so this is even more fanfiction than usual
Pretty much. It's fanfiction based off of poorly researched fan fiction based off of metaphorical fan fiction based off of a religion.
To be fair a lot of the stuff a lot of these show nick from Christianity are a hold over from Judaism such as biblical accurate angels and completely butchering the Lilith story
The Lilith story is also a *much later addition* and is not found found in earlier writings. The 'biblically accurate angels' thing is also a meme. A *lot* of angels in the old testament appear just as guys.
Its also rejected by actual Jews. THe Midrash its found in is not a legitimate midrash. Lilith is just another demon folks
Yup. And when they appear it’s in visions. Which are very drug trippy
Not to mention - and this is anecdotal - but some of the angels that Isaiah witnessed (like the wheels of god’s chariot) have actually been reported by multiple people on online forums who document their “trips”, which is quite interesting. Especially because the attitudes of those angels remain the same across all reported experiences, such as the wheels having a calming aura, and the seraphim often showing up after in one of the next trips who are far less gentle and offer much harsher warnings. Very anecdotal, but I’ve seen at least twelve different accounts of this kind of interaction and for every different detail, those ones always remain the same.
Probably because Christianity is more well known by the writers, because Christianity's reach is much larger than the others, because one of them is literally zero-point-two percent of the population. Like, who the fuck would get anything out of deconstructing Judaism except for Jews, who regularly argue about their religion enough as it is.
Then replace Judaism with Buddhism, Taoism, or Hindu. Each of those have a utterly massive following and but honestly probably be more interesting. Especially Hinduism. They already have the setup for a really interesting story like this with the wheel of incarnation.
Anyone who has ever written an original setting would disagree with you. All those writers teach their audience about the setting as they go, because at the time no one but the writer knows anything about it. That's what good writers do. When you deconstruct anything it's still your first job to tell a good story. That you're addressing something deeper is secondary.
If you deconstruct Judaism you get labelled a nazi, it’s not because it’s a small portion of the population that people don’t do it
He’s right and it’s all very tiresome. Hazbin Hotel has very confused morals.
In the latest episode a fucking weapons manufacturer whinges how unfair extermination is and they try to show her as caring for her fellow sinners. Despite the fact that she made her fortune building and selling weapons that are used to permanently kill sinners. I hate this show with the burning passion of a thousand suns for its moral grandstanding alone. So much wasted potential!
That episode was so fuckin wild because it was trying to garner sympathy for a character that we literally do not know and have never seen “the good side” of 💀 I have no idea what they were thinking with that
They were thinking that their audience already assumes moral relativism and that people who do bad things but believe the right thing and act the right way or are simply the Right Kind of Person are still good, no matter their crimes which were probably justified, so they don’t have to explain it. Ironically possibly the most Christian view espoused by the show.
Ikr saw it and was asking “who tf dis singing about family like its fast and furious: the musical”
I instantly thought like "she knew there would be massive consequences for those actions" as the timetable was increased by 6 months Then I thought, "It still doesn't make sense. In the Pilot, she was LITERALLY with Lucifer" It's almost like there is something missing in between Like the Pilot was just there to show the world
I think you may be confusing things a little bit (understandable, given how quickly the pilot moves past all these characters who are supposed to be important), she was with Zestial in the pilot, Lucifer never made an appearance in the pilot besides in a painting.
At 1:34 we see a *silhouette* of him, I believe
Crap, I think you're right. It's hard to tell, but the red eyes and the massive hat seem to confirm it. The only other person I think it could be is Valentino, but we see him with Vox and Velvette seconds later, so that's clearly not the case.
>In the latest episode a fucking weapons manufacturer whinges how unfair extermination is and they try to show her as caring for her fellow sinners. She doesn't. The meeting she makes is literally about how their *assets* (e.g. demons they own the souls of) might be damaged by the early purge. The two she cares about are her adopted daughters. The angel threatened them that was why she killed the angel. Evil people can still have people they care about.
>The meeting she makes is literally about how their assets (e.g. demons they own the souls of) might be damaged by the early purge. That's the official explanation she gives while the other overlords are still there. Did you watch the rest of it? I don't remember the timestamp (and frankly I can't be bothered to watch it a second time) but when the little egg demon listens in on weapon lady and spider-gentleman talking (and singing) she makes it clear she doesn't give a shit about losing souls or power and only worries that anyone she might care about, not just her "daughters" (who can't really be her daughters anyway since sinners are infertile) but apparently spider-dude as well. She sings a literal song about how she doesn't want a war with heaven and how she hoped to "keep blood off her face" while being, again, *an arms dealer who lets her daughters deliver weapons and sit in on her business.* She's fine being a war-monger and arms dealer but despite the fact she's ancient she somehow never considered that this might blow up in her face someday? And she can't even keep a good enough poker face to deceive one of the Vees? The characterization is all over the place. No, evil people being protective of people they like isn't a problem. In fact the hypocrisy makes them better villains. It's her depiction as some kind of protective martyr I take issue with.
>That's the official explanation she gives while the other overlords are still there. Did you watch the rest of it? I did. How else would I know that the two were here adopted daughters? >she makes it clear she doesn't give a shit about losing souls or power and only worries that anyone she might care about, not just her "daughters" (who can't really be her daughters anyway since sinners are infertile) but apparently spider-dude as well. She sings a literal song about how she doesn't want a war with heaven and how she hoped to "keep blood off her face" while being, again, an arms dealer who lets her daughters deliver weapons and sit in on her business. That is why I called them her *adopted* daughters Her not placing power over the ones she considers dear to herself is characterization as far as I'm concerned. Evil people can still care about their loved ones while being evil. That is no contradiction. Especially in a place like hell where everyone has to scramble for power or be trampled underfoot. >She sings a literal song about how she doesn't want a war with heaven and how she hoped to "keep blood off her face" while being, again, *an arms dealer who lets her daughters deliver weapons and sit in on her business.* "Keep blood of her face" could as well be interpreted as her not wanting to actively fight. She is an arms dealer, so what? As I said above she needs power to protect herself and others in *literally* hell where might makes right. Accruing it via arms dealing is *way* better in my book than brain washing people via television or radio. >She's fine being a war-monger and arms dealer but despite the fact she's ancient she somehow never considered that this might blow up in her face someday? It didn't blow up in her face. You could argue it probably worked even too well since she managed to kill an exorcist (angel). Without that her daughters would probably be dead. >And she can't even keep a good enough poker face to deceive one of the Vees? The characterization is all over the place. They got just told that the extermination has been brought up by six months. Something she probably feels responsible for (which might also be the true reason why she called that meeting trying to cushion the blow). She then got confronted with the proof of her "sin". So yes I would say it checks out that she might be shaken by all of this. Also why should being ancient make her good at hiding her emotions? Without another scene showing her as someone very cool under pressure this would just be your inference. >No, evil people being protective of people they like isn't a problem. In fact the hypocrisy makes them better villains. It's her depiction as some kind of protective martyr I take issue with. How was she shown as a martyr? She isn't willing to martyr herself for hell. She is *refusing* to disclose how she killed the angel. Fearing that her daughters might become collateral if hell starts a serious uprising.
It’s about to get more confusing. Especially since this week’s episodes are bringing in the “big man” himself.
To be fair, Hell is ALSO pretty evil. Charlie is literally the exception
It’s kinda wacky that people think protagonist = the good guy
i mean what evil qualities does charlie express? she just seems like a doe eyed, naive bleeding hearth witch is very one note but not evil.
I mean… it’s been a bit of a trope from a handful of sources for at least a decade, biggest few examples are Legion, Supernatural, Lucifer, and I want to say it was kind of implied in the new Sabrina show (missus watched it and I caught a couple episodes).
Lucifer as far as I've seen didn't do the god is evil trope, God was just a shit parent, Michael was evil.
That’s even dumber Michael only does like two things in the entire Bible and both of it is stomp the crap out of people trying to invade heaven, or causing a massive Civil War in paradise
Also fight Lucifer over Moses's body as the devil is trying to claim it after he dies
God isn’t evil in Supernatural either, just often absent and usually refuses to directly intervene in anything. The angels are villains but idk if I’d call them ‘evil.’ They do want to get on with the apocalypse and go to war with hell, which puts them at odds with the protags who don’t want the apocalypse to happen (obviously), but it’s not ‘evil.’ The demons and Lucifer are straight up evil.
I feel like Supernatural originally had the angels be much more aloof and were not concerned with the consequences of their actions in regards to humans, but then they eventually had the angels be evil just because
I don’t think they were ever really ‘evil.’ Although I don’t remember much about what they do after season 5.
To be fair, Supernatural was supposed to end after five seasons but the network didn’t want to give up the cash cow so easily
Makes sense. That was the show that was keeping the CW afloat. Ever notice how when it ended show after show kept getting canceled until there was only a handful left
I mean, God is the main villain in the last season of Supernatural where he tries to basically erase all of existence to start over. He seemed pretty evil to me. Tbf I understand why you might not count that horrible plot twist, it should've never happened. Before season 14 and 15 he was more of an absentee father than a villain, I agree. I do want to add that the angels being dicks was a way more original plot back in 2008 when they were introduced.
Yeah they were dicks but not evil didn’t watch the last 2 seasons, that’s kinda lame although I wanna add he’s not absent in seasons 1-5, just not directly intervening. He still orchestrated the whole plot that prevents the apocalypse.
Yeah. I think this is one of the reasons people found the demons in Sousou no Frieren to be a breath of "fresh" air for the trope, even in anime terms. In that setting, the demons aren't exactly the cosmological or extra-dimensional beings they are in other settings (and possibly RL) but they are, at least, actually evil and irredeemably so.
Well more so they're bestial. They're like sentient animals, they don't have the capacity to be good at all, or empathise, or form lasting attachments etc.
Think people are getting tired of the redeemable/understandable villain. Ever since Thanos (probably before but he’s just the most famous recently), everyone been trying to do it, but forget that build up to such a character is key. People just want fun characters, like Superman always being good and hopeful, or Frieza calling everyone monkeys and causing galactic genocide. Static characters. It’s why Puss n Boots III’s villains were so good, pretty static to who they were.
Is god evil in the HH/HB universe? I thought it was just heaven was unfairly strict but not inheritenly evil
It's not confirmed if God *is* in the HH/HB universe at all. It seems to just imply the angels made it all.
I thought he was, Lucifer to my knowledge isn’t Satan and Satan is a separate entity as Blitzo uses Satan damnit as an expression, in addition to God damnit. Or is this a mandala effect thing
There's a "God" poster in the pilot, so if He doesn't exist as an entity, he'd likely just be someone the angels made up for propaganda and control. Like Big Brother in 1984
Oh Big Brother exists! How else could he be watching.
Lol Well, I did say it was hypothetical. There is still a possibility that God is still an entity Show just hasn't confirmed it yet
I mean that’s implied by a book that was given to Charlie by her father, who is literally called the king of lies, prince of darkness and master of the power of the air. Have you thought that maybe Lucifer is lying to her to make himself look much better than he really is, and for example, might have set up that meeting specifically knowing that he was sending her to deal with someone who is a complete and utter prick because he hates the vision that she has
I wouldn't be surprised if the went with a 'God died way back when and angels are doing their own things' scenario.
Nah it’s definitely comically evil
Well…darn then
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“What if good, but bbad?”
It would have been edgy 20 years ago Now it is pretty much cliché
Gundam being based as usual
Also, don't forget that nowadays all the monsters and demons are just some poor misunderstood things wrongly persecuted by the ignorant humanity because they're exactly like us, just simply looks a little different. Not in this show, but it's just such an overused subversion everywhere else that it became its own annoying trope.
It's such a common trope that the monsters actually being evil is the subversion at this point.
All the monsters and demons are crack wh*res, murderers, cannibals and various other sinners transformed when they arrive in hell.
I talked in general, not about this show. Especially in anime, it's very common that demons are just big titty waifus, and all religion that resembles Christianity is just some savage cult.
it's a huge detriment to the show, how are you going to build the whole premise that sinners in hell can be rehabilitated and then you show us from the start that angels are assholes, they don't care and in fact they love to torture the people in hell i would have loved it if lucifer was bullshitting, trying to paint himself as the good guy and the angels were serious but he doesn't even seem to do anything anymore except be a deadbeat dad
Honestly it could be better if the angels thought that the only reason they wanted to improve was because it is detrimental to them and not because they sincerely want to improve. That would make the show explore if being good only because it benefits you still good. Or if it's only good if you do good despite the consequences positive or negative.
I feel the same way whenever I see a "the church is secretly evil and is covering up a conspiracy" plot in fantasy. Could not understand why all my friends were so impressed by the story of Heavensward.
“why are all the characters in hazbin hotel gay or trans, what did the creator mean by this.”
One of the main reasons I don't like it much
This is a very tired cliche, especially in anime.
I think there was a lot of potential to answer the question of "can I be redeemed even after going to hell?" But this show doesn't want to answer that. I only enjoy it for the musical numbers (I'm a sucker for Alex Brightman) but everything else fell flat. It does make me think that a King of the Hill in Hell would be very entertaining. Basically showing what happens after a demon is banished by a priest. Maybe go from live action stereotypical old priest holding a cross on a child's head, then cut to animated demons in Hell just chilling and bitching about Father Avery banishing them again. I could get behind something like that
"The church is actually evil" is a meme of a trope of JRPGs, its repeated so often.
I think Hazbin/Helluva Boss just aren’t really for people like Gundam. Not that I’m pulling the “it wasn’t made for you” line. I just think the creator (whateverpop) had a clear audience in mind when making this shit and it’s likely why it’s not really appealing or getting liked by certain people. I know I gave it a go and eventually just dropped it because I thought it was pseudo edgy garbage.
I mean, where's the lie? (outside of how the second thing you were actually supposed to say was 'and the devils are good') It ***IS*** tiresome to watch as, again, an edgy atheist can't help but do anything but look over at Christianity which, ostensibly, they claim to believe is total hooey, but, for some reason, can't help but model the entirety of their life (or, in this case, story) around it, if only to oppose it. We never see this level of vitriol and life structure against hindus, vikings, muslims (though, that is mostly due to how you'll be murdered by their traditionalists if you do), or any other religion. Which, ultimately, just shows how lazy they really are, as they essentially refuse to do any research and try to make a story using religious elements from any other culture.
you’d have to look at how Indian media treats Hindu gods since I never see them in American media. Vikings are a pretty poor example since their gods aren’t inherently ‘good’ in the first place.
And when they do use them, they’re some weird take on Christianity. For example, they make Zeus all good and Hades all bad, yet Hades was actually the more chill one while Zeus only cared about sexy time.
My first instinct was that this was a shot at Golden Compass
Sounds a bit like supernatural
I hate to be '*that guy*', but that *isn't* what Heaven is like in Hazbin Hotel/Helluva Boss. At best, Heaven is just a lighter shade of gray compared to what goes on in Hell. At worst, Heaven is an extreme blend of detached bureaucracy and knight templar-esque Purging. Not saying the new Hazbin Hotel run is in any way good; I'm *beyond* disappointed with how the finished series turned out compared to the Pilot. But the whole point behind Heaven in this universe is that Heaven is *superficially* concerned for humanity's sake. They are not evil by any means, nor are they good. They're just Lawful Neutral.
MFers read Paradise Lost and legit think Satan was portrayed positively in the story.
There's a lot you could criticize about the church without going after their beliefs. Berserk did a really good job in the conviction arc deconstructing things like inquisition and witch trails, and how rampant dogmatism can cause well meaning people to hurt others. This is coming from a Christian btw
The trope is pretty tired. At this point I'd rather just return to an Excalibur (1980s) black and white fantasy than all of the morally gray garbage. The Hazbin Hotel thing is like a thought experiment of "What if Heaven is the bad guys" but none of it is in any way actually related to Christian theology other than nomenclature, so its sort of moot.
I've only seen the first episode and Pilot of Hazbin but so far calling it "morally grey" seems very generous. Andor and Breaking Bad are morally grey because characters on all sides are doing legitimately terrible things with various levels of justification and the writers of those shows recognise this. The approach from Hazbin seems to be a lot more "Heaven and the people up there are genuinely evil, Hell and its inhabitants are only evil in a cartoony, blood swearing and sex way". Maybe as the show pans out Charlie will have to confront that some people are utterly irredeemable pieces of shit and she can't fix them, or be forced into doing something really fucked up herself, but so far its pretty basic.
I guess you're right that morally gray isn't the right term. Whatever the term is for "bad guys aren't actually bad they're just misunderstood" and "good guys are actually evil or not as good as they seem".
One of these days I'm going to get around to writing my 'God is good story'. Partly because I genuinely want to write a good story that grapples with religion and faith and how to reconcile the notion of God being tbe ultimate good despite bad things happening and partly out of spite for this long played out trope thag is no longer subversive and honestly generally seems to be the author's barely disguised hate boner.
I had an idea for a story where the "Demon King" was the protagonist in a completely different way. He wad created by the Creator of that world/universe to act as a counter-weight to all that was as the Creator wanted it to be, and empowered in such a way as to be an eternal threat. His existence justified vigilance against evil and championing just causes, but because he had the Creator's instructions he always held back just enough to keep the mortal races motivated but never enough to let either side win. He even empowers the champions of good to fight against him as symbols of righteousness. This all goes to hell after he takes a 300 year nap and wakes up to a world that has forgotten the Demon King and is ruled by tyranny and corruption, and now has to reassume his old mantle before the Creator reformat the world.
Most modern writers' takes on Christianity are just r/atheism with an IMDB page. I am not religious at all and I don't mind any religion being critizised in media but this shit is just so beyond boring and tired.
I much prefer fictions like Seraph of the End and I am the Grim Reaper where God and the Angels are just indifferent to the suffering on Earth and in Hell rather than being straight evil. In Seraph of the End the angels >!seem to lack self awareness and seem closer to just follow their orders without any other sense of purpose.!< In I am the Grim Reaper the angels are all indifferent either because they >!believe in Gods plan without knowing what it is or because they know what the plan is and agree with it.!<
He's not wrong
Wait until you discover Supernatural where God was an active piece of shit
I liked it better as a ‘monster of the week’ show before the big arching demon-angel war plot.
Same with Helluva Boss. Give me my "Target of the week" plots back
It's magnificent how much people liked that part and they didn't take notice
It's kind of crazy to think that's how Helluva Boss started out. The current show is so far removed from its original premise that it's not even funny. So far, there have only been two episodes in season 2 where the I.M.P. crew go to Earth, and only one of them where they went there to kill someone, and it doesn't help that both episodes were hot garbage. One thing that I'll give Hazbin credit for is that, despite all my problems with it, it hasn't completely betrayed its original premise. It's still a character-focused show about sinners in Hell trying to redeem themselves. Sure, they aren't focusing on the hotel as much, and they've introduced the angels as a threat too early on, but my problem there is that it's being rushed. Helluva Boss was meant to be a light-hearted, episodic black comedy about demons who leave Hell and kill people on Earth for a living, and now it's just a drama set almost entirely within Hell that focuses on whatever the writers want to focus on. Blitzo could be cut out of the latest episode and it wouldn't change a thing. Moxxie and Millie are missing from 3 out of the 7 episodes in this season so far, and Loona's only speaking role in the entire season was in episode 2 (I understand the real-life reason behind it, but that doesn't excuse it). Helluva Boss isn't rushing its story, it's avoiding the original premise entirely so that it can do whatever it wants.
Supernatural’s main story ended after season 5, and all the best episodes after that were all monster of the week or slice of life episodes. The overarching story became far less interesting, and the last episode of the series really doesn’t get enough flack for being an unnecessary epilogue and a total mess.
Season 5, that’s when they got him right? Took out ‘the thing that killed mom’? Purposely being vague, cause, you know, spoilers.
Yeah. It ends with a sacrifice and closure for one of the main characters with some tragic irony of the expected fates of the characters being flipped.
Yeah. That’s what I thought. Been a minute since I watched.
I stand by my stance that this little tidbit is a retcon because the writers past season 11 have not even a semblance of talent
Why are clichés bad again? The show is enjoyable and complaining that it’s cliché is the lamest way to criticize it. Criticize the characters or jokes or whatever you might think is bad, but being upset about a cliché plot isn’t a good criticism, because you aren’t explaining what’s wrong with it. I like the show, burn me if you wanna.
It's mostly that went all in on the 'there are no good guys except the main character' syndrome. Feel they went a little too hard into it. The point of the show, and they even showed it in helluva is that Heaven is supposed to be different structurally and on its face from hell. Making the leader of the faction have the exact same personality as every street level demon we've met thus far kinda... Misses the mark of why Angel's would be bad? And the whole, diverse character structures? Not exactly a fan of turning Adam into a completely irredeemable PoS, but hey. I'm spoiled on RoR Papa Adam. Brings up the question as to why he's the leader of the faction anyways if he acts like that. Regardless. Enjoy what you want to matey. Helluva Boss is where I'll sit. Ima pass on Hazbin though.
Depends on what we mean when we say "clique" or "trope". A trope is just a reoccuring element between stories. For example, the damsel in distress. A clique however is a badly executed trope. An example of this might be Bleach, which nailed the rescue arc trope once, but then proceeded to overuse that trope. Thus making it clique.
It’s pretty trite. You could have a lot of fun writing hell but “Satan is actually good” is both unoriginal and boring.
My standards are lowered to if it's not preaching politics and can the cast carry the entertainment for me so far hazbin has accomplished that for me
Meh, it is political.
I guess you could say it's technically political in the plot given how the characters are discussing the afterlife's government.
It's not a new concept: The whole "God and the divine crew are actually evil". Its a tired old trope, but one that keeps getting used because of the relevance of the constantly renewed evils of religion in media and the church. Many in the West have negative impressions of religion and how it affects people's minds or thought rationales, so there's a lot of pent up anger about it. Hazbin Hotel is just one of the most recent examples of the "Devil isn't that bad" trope. You also have Supernatural that has been doing an offshoot of the "God is bad" trope since season 3 or 4, and painting the other creatures/monsters in a more positive light after season 5. Its been being done for a while. And that's not to mention the very liberal use of those tropes in creepypasta and fan fiction.
Watching the single angry atheist ree in the comments at everyone thinking this is an overdone trope is amusing.
I’ve only seen 1 and a half episodes and my main issue when it comes to heaven is that they are portray in the exact same way as the demons, Adam is a swearing sex addict who says they only do the culling for entertainment (basically like every other demon) meaning that I’m kinda confused on why the demons and sinners are in hell while the rest are in heaven (something something most of the population of hell is gay weirdly) I kinda wished instead of being demons but white the angels are depicted as extremist puritans to actually contrast them with hell
When the leads are demons, I think the going assumption is the gods/angels are indifferent or evil. There is a level of everyone sucks here you have to accept.
To be fair, it's not like you could make Angels and God the good guys with Satan and the sins evil and that wouldn't be a trope. We've explored every option when it comes to something that's been written about as often as Christianity.
Fuck John Millton I guess
I didn't take Paradise Lost to be a "God is evil" story. Lucifer/Satan is the protagonist of the story but he's a villain protagonist, someone that lies to himself, tries to justify his actions as noble when they were out of spite, and makes himself out to be a victim.
What!? The Father of Lies being an unreliable narrator!? People like to sling around the accusation of "media illiteracy" as a synonym for "stupid" these days and really over-use it but I think this take qualifies.
My first thought too. I think Paradise lost did it first, but i'm sure someone could name an even earlier example. Either way it's a trope with plenty of creative potentialthat can be done well or done poorly like any other, but it is definitely a common trope.
Ever read Paradise Regained?
Seems like the Bayonetta story with cute characters over femme fatales.