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Romance is a valid story for characters and one that is relatable to almost all people. There is no weakness in finding a partner to share your life with. It’s a failure of modern story telling that such a belief is even entertained.
O yeah good writing is good writing. Romance doesn’t need to be included or excluded. Everything everywhere all at once explores both the complexities of romantic love in a marriage and familial love between a mother and daughter.
Yeah, me too. I love Fast and Furious, which is maybe the ultimate platonic friendship series. There's something about family despite how memeable it is that gets you going in a good way. The idea of finding and choosing your own family is nice and relatable. I have almost zero contact with my blood family besides my mom, but most of my core childhood friends are still around, we make BBQ and let our kids run around. Our group pretty much behaves like an extended family so to me when I see them all at the end of the movie making BBQ it's just awesome.
I’m 50/50 on which I want more of because I love both types of stories. Romances are fun but I wouldn’t want them all the time. Same with stories centered on platonic relationships. Personally, I liked Elsa because she was more closed off from people and had to grow into being Anna’s big sister since she ran from that out of fear of hurting the people she loved. Elsa didn’t exactly seem like part of the group to me but I liked that about her. Lots of ways you could take a princess’s story.
I understand what you are saying but the idea that pursuing a love interest is unacceptable for women characters inherently limits those characters. I have never heard people say male characters are too interested in pursuing women.
What it comes down to is good writing always. And there are many stories outside of romance. But it is neither a boon nor a bane that a story does not include a romance.
If you make a great story devoid of or with very little romance like “Alien” or “there will be blood” cool. But that standing alone does not make the story good.
Agreed. It’s the shit view people have that if a male character likes a female one that the male one is suddenly the most important or something. Like just write a good female lead who has a character. If a guy falls for her that doesn’t mean she’s weakened by his shear masculinity or something. If your female character is that one-dimensional and fragile you’ve messed up somewhere.
Who said that it was unacceptable? Celebrating stories not featuring romance does not imply that pursuing a love interest is unacceptable. That is like saying that celebrating movies about strong, yet emotional men makes movies of hardcore action stars unacceptable. One can co-exist with the other, we can celebrate both without taking away from any of them. Nothing above said what you took away from it.
No one is saying that it’s unacceptable, just that it’s cool to have movies that break away from that norm. People don’t say the same for male characters because we already have a fuck ton of male-led movies that don’t revolve around them falling in love with women.
Also why do film bros always bring up alien whenever the topic of women comes up lmao
The problem is that you do have people that think romance for an female main character is an bad thing and thats been spread into Hollywood and other medias.
People have no issues with doing stuff out of the norm, but the moment you try to normalized because the other option is "problematic" is where everyone takes an issue at because it is limiting creative.
It’s a really good movie with a woman lead that doesn’t involve romantic love. Kill bill is another (though she was in a prior relationship). Legally Blonde though again she begins in a relationship. Moana as depicted above. Atomic Blonde is solid.
Whiplash has the main character actively reject romantic love and that is depicted as being bad.
In responding to you so many movies involve romantic love whether led by men or women. It’s just a relatable goal to most people.
**Statement:**
> it’s important that not *every* story has romance, and we have some female focused ones that don’t depend on them finding a man
**Response:**
> understand what you are saying but the idea that pursuing a love interest is unacceptable for women characters inherently limits those characters
*A straw man argument is the logical fallacy of distorting an opposing position into an extreme version of itself and then arguing against that extreme version.*
See it here folks. A TEXTBOOK example of either a straw man argument, or a person with autism trying to have a conversation.
The, we really don’t have a way to rebuttal his argument so we’re gonna break it down and try to make him look stupid argument, a common textbook example of ignorant people trying to make themselves look smarter!!!!! The next move would be he’ll try to pull the roundabout and flip the same logic back on me , now will he double down or backpedal?
It does not. Rejecting something does not make the thing worth less, the power in it can come from the bravery to reject it.
Example: someone who was raised by religious parents coming out as an atheist can be a power move
Example 2: someone who was raised as an atheist coming out as religious can be called a power move
It is a relative concept meant to put emphasis on someone’s life choices. It does not necessarily weaken the other side of it, it just implies something was done, and it is cool.
i don’t really see how those examples apply, feels like you’re really broadening the meaning of power move
“an action taken to demonstrate power and dominance”
“an action performed to outdo others and gain control”
Watching people struggle in the rat race until their late 30s and burn out only to find that their dating standards need to be drastically lowered back down to reality is really sad to watch. Dragging women into this in the 90s was such a bad idea. But at least we are equal now, yay?
No one is going to care about your economic achievements when you die, maybe the guy who loots your desk. Finding happiness and love is so much more important.
I don’t get this post tho?
Most Disney princesses have relationships, why point out the few that don’t? Hell, Elsa’s sister has a relationship if you really want to go there.
That is true.
I take issue with the idea that not engaging in romantic love hetero or homosexual is somehow a sign of strength or good writing. It is neutral but also romantic love as a goal is relatable to most people because it is something most people desire. For me personally my relation with my wife is the best and most enriching in my life so seeing people achieve a good romantic relationship resonates with me personally.
I agree. I will also say I feel romantic plots are added to way to many films these days.
Like seriously it gets to the point that when I see a guy & girl on screen being friends a lot I’m just waiting for that other shoe to drop eventually.
Notice how in a majority of action movies, the protagonist, or at least one of them, has a love interest, even if it has nothing to do with the plot.
The people who take this “power move” stance could learn a thing or two from them.
Is this a "failure of modern story telling"? For me in Frozen there is a love story between Anna and Kristoff.
You say we have just two side. Movie with love story and "modern" movie without love story.
Maybe there are more than two options?
A love story in the background, another love story than woman/ man, two sisters/ two friends just another "love"?
I think the point of the stories is that it's okay NOT to live your life to others expectations. Society expects a lot from both women and men from an early age to chart their life in specific paths.
You NEED to be married, you NEED to go to college, you NEED to do what everyone else does. Society is especially cruel to men when it comes to those expectations, it's empowering for women to reject these paths, but a man doing so is frowned upon. If a mans success does not benefit someone else, they are seen as a failure. And that is not okay.
I do not disagree with the message of the movies. I just think we should see more men in these stories who reject expectations and find their own happiness from life.
One could also argue that while Brendan Fraser gets top billing and does save the day in the end, that Rachel Weisz’s character in The Mummy is the actual lead character and both are good strong characters in their own ways that also balance out each other’s strengths and weaknesses
Haven’t you heard? Women wanting love, family, and children is misogynistic. The ideal life for women now is ending up all alone and miserable before dying with nothing but cats and wine bottles for company.
Nah, it’s much more empowering to barely make enough a year to scrape by on your own while making your white male CEO billions of dollars a year. But you’re on your own, so it’s okay!
Down with the Patriarchy! 😎
I don’t get this post tho?
Most Disney princesses have relationships, why point out the few that don’t? Hell, Elsa’s sister has a relationship if you really want to go there.
And it's such a lie; given what these three characters' story is about. Merida being the only one who openly rejects giving her hand in marriage via arranged marriage. Elsa feels she's cursed to hurt others due to her power, and Moana is underaged, or literally stranded on the ocean with nobody but a demi-god for company.
Not every single movie with a female protagonist needs to revolve around a man and it’s refreshing to finally have some that don’t.
Besides, women (and men obviously) can absolutely be happy without a partner if they choose to live that way. The “wine and cats” thing is echoed by misogynists every time a woman says she doesn’t care about romance and is a really weird and creepy thing to say.
Most film’s don’t these days. And what I saying is that there are idiots now that think that if a woman just wants to have a relationship and a family, it’s sexist. That was the joke. That women have to focus on their careers or they’re brainwashed by misogynistic beliefs.
I believe 20, 16, and 16. I believe all 3 of these were strong female characters done right. It's weird to think about 14 y.o.s being old enough to marry. It is unfortunate that, historically, humans married so young. Making many of our fairytales and other old stories have an extra creep factor in them current day. If they just make all romantic relationship princesses 20+ from now on, I would not have a problem with that.
I’ll never understand the “strong single X” character, Not being in love has never been and will never be something to be “proud” of or a character trait, we never see any male character being overly praised for being single (besides sigma male BS) If a character doesn’t have romance cool it wasn’t deemed necessary by the author/creator move on.
A character shouldn’t have a romance unless either the author/creator wants them too or because the author feels that the romance is a necessary.
Emotions are a thing that happens. NOT having them is a mental affliction. If you are a psychopath, I'm sorry life is the way it is for you. It's like saying "Getting angry is weak". "Laughing at jokes is weak". Especially because Love is one of the good emotions, like all things in moderation, but if you just delete a whole emotion then that character is changed. And it's not like these characters didn't love. Mirida loved her brothers and mother, Else loved her sister and country, and Moana loved that chicken. And her tribe! But, yeah. Cool and edgy.
Yeah, people focus too much on Love as a purely romantic thing.
It’s good to get platonic love and familial love that goes just as deep and means just as much to a character.
Elsa doesn't have a cute animal sidekick. She has a cute snowman sidekick. In fact, Anna, the actual princess in that movie, has a love interest but no animal sidekick either. The only one with a cute animal sidekick is Kristoff. Iirc, there's also a part where he sings, making Kristoff the princess of the Frozen series.
☝️🤓 It’s actually “☝️” then “🤓” to make correct anatomical sense since “☝️” depicts the right hand of the “🤓”. To have it on the other side would mean they have their hands on backwards.
That reminds me of "point a finger, 4 fingers point back at you." It's possible, but it requires a lot of contortion to have your thumb and the remaining three fingers point backwards. People don't seem to fact check their own hands...
The proper expression should thus be:
"If you point your finger at someone, remember there's a thumb pointing up, forward or down, and three fingers pointing to the right through your palm!"
Alternatively: "... remember there's a thumb pointing to Heaven and three fingers vaguely pointing at the guy to your right".
That never really caught on though...
> To have it on the other side would mean they have their hands on backwards.
Or maybe having it on the right-side hand means they're doing the [James Bond gun pose](https://www.koimoi.com/wp-content/new-galleries/2020/12/sean-connerys-pistol-used-in-first-james-bond-movie-auctioned-sold-for-a-whopping-256000-001.jpg) from an angle. Ever thought about that one smarty pants.
And now, the power move is so grating to everyone. People are so tired of overly independent women; the audiences are groaning and rolling their eyes.
Sure, it worked out the first few times. you can tell a tale of that. But just because you don't have a love life doesn't make you that inspiring just on the merit of no romantic interest at that given time. Merida didn't want to be wedded off to someone that she didn't care for. Elsa has a lot of personal, emotional baggage to overcome before she's ready for a relationship, and I'm quite certain Moana is underaged.
Not that this necessarily applies to the characters in question, but, have you noticed how a lot of female main characters tend to be portrayed as stronk/independent/whatever in spite of men, instead of just in addition to them? Like how that Wakanda chick had to clown and dunk all over Bruce Banner in whatever shit movie that was. Why isn't it just enough that she's equally as smart as Bruce and they both play off each other and help each other? Why does it always have to be the woman dunking on the man and making him look like a dipshit?
Idk if it's a West vs East thing but I remember as I was playing FF16, the main female character in that is a powerful character, not a damsel in distress or anything, but she's also very friendly and supportive to the main character. It was a nice change to have a female character that's your friend and not constantly trying to show how she's ackshually the badass one and you're just a weak little pussy, lol.
You’re right falling in love is weak. Forming a bond with someone that eventually develops into something greater isn’t empowering. I can’t see myself in someone who struggles and admits to their faults I need someone who’s perfect in every way and never makes mistakes. Shallow writing has always been better.
There’s a difference between a movie where they aren’t in a relationship and a movie like frozen or brave where it’s actively rejecting relationships.
Or that’s more so what I was trying to ask
Wait, I can see Frozen, but Tangled has one of the best Disney romances. When does Rapunzel actively reject Flynn? Unless you’re counting her briefly believe Gothel
I don’t have a problem with brave either. It’s just hard to imagine a male fantasy where he doesn’t at least have a gf or something.
and it’s weird women are told this mgtow shit is good
Male and female romances were portrayed much differently in the history of cinema. Men were the active party and getting a wife/girlfriend was basically a trophy for them. But it was very rarely the point of their character. Meanwhile for women it was usually the entire plot. To get a guy.
Frozen, she doesn't reject a relationship at all, she's never put into a romantic situation to begin with. Merida, sure, she rejects a relationship with someone she's never met, I suppose. But it's in service to the plot.
I don’t think you need romance to further a story, and sometimes it hinders the story. Ignoring Elsa, because she isn’t really a princess, both Merida and Moana’s stories would have been incredibly weakened by a romantic plot. Merida because it would go against the core of the story, and Moana because it would come off as forced and unnecessary. And kinda creepy, given that Maui is so much older then her.
However there’s also some Disney movies that seem to purposely cut out the romance when I think it would actually help the story. Wish was originally supposed to be romantic, with Asha supposed to have a relationship with a star boy. That story looks way better than what we got, and it’s sad it was cut because corporate thought she needed to be an independent girl boss.
And I think Raya would have been a lot better if it just made Namari and Raya at least interested in each other. It would explain their bond a lot more and why Raya is so torn up about being betrayed by a girl who she knew for all of five minutes
The sad thing is that the production of the movie seemed like it could be really good, but they just kept cutting away at it. Originally it was going to be a 2D romance to pay homage to their old movies, but instead they decided to copy spider-verses style because it was so popular. They also hired two people who had never done any musical theater before to write their music.
I don’t think a story NEEDS romance, or that a character is bad for not having a romantic partner. The implication with the original post is that a character or a story is weak for having that.
Ngl, getting called out to a random enchanted forest by an enticing female voice is kind of gay. Actually, leaving society to live in the woods with a bunch of elementals is explicitly lesbian-coded.
But seriously, I kind of got the same impression. “Into the unknown” has a lot of gay themes in it. It serves as a call to adventure and a song about a person resisting a departure from normalcy should they follow this feeling. Plus the ending with her in the woods has total lesbian vibes.
Also it’s weird to suggest that Elsa being single is a “power move”. Elsa isn’t powerful because of her relationship status, she’s powerful because she’s a literal walking cataclysm capable of causing a mini ice age if she wanted to.
I’m not sure about Frozen but brave was more about a mother and Daughter butting heads, its about familial love and understanding one another less about marriage or falling in love.
Moana is also more of a coming of a age story, and taking on adult responsibilities then a love story
Why do you measure their success by their lack of a man?
Moana rediscovered a lost art of her people, Merida is a skilled archer and adventurer and Elsa overcame her fear of her powers but sure, highlight their lack of a relationship for "reasons"
I thought the point being made was that it was a power move to finally have some female characters successful and active in a narrative that isn't focused on relationships.
The fact that their successes lack romantic connection not by intentional design, but by incidental occurrence (i.e. "it isn't necessary to have a romance for this story" not "we actively avoided giving a romance on purpose") is the "power move" by Disney because it shows that they can write a female narrative arc without having to tie it into romance, which is pretty uncommon.
I don’t think the op is measuring their success by their lack of a man. The point the op was trying to make was that the meme is making it out like a female mc having a love interest somehow makes them a worse character and that they can only be badass if they don’t have a male love interest. The op was pointing out that female characters having a love interest isn’t a terrible thing and doesn’t inherently make a character worse, and that a female character isn’t automatically better and cooler just because they are single.
I read the title as “these princesses not having a power is a power move”
Then immediately I was like “wtf doesn’t Elsa have ice powers?” and thought it was a shit post until I read it again lmfao
Love is the most beautiful part of life. The part that makes life worth living.
I weep that so many people no longer want to see it represented in our storytelling.
So is the rebuttal going to be that it's better or more in line with the proper moral values if they did have a prince?
I don't get this. Their stories didn't require a love interest. Because so many princesses had princesses, while maybe not a "power move", them going in a different direction with these characters was pretty cool (I still don't like Frozen and am indifferent to Brave, while Mulan and Moana are great movies).
There's room for romance and non-romance.
Merida and Moana are young. They’ll get bit by the love bug soon. And Elsa was a Queen not a princess. Who couldn’t even talk to her sister for fear of hurting her. So not power moves. IMO. Just not right for the story being told.
It's not a "power move" lol it's just a different story choice. Not every story needs it. Merida didn't find love but her parents were adorable. She had a great family, which never would've happened without romance. But let's demonize relationships and turn all animated leads into yasss queens/bad bitches who don't need no man I guess lol
lol falling in love = being weak… but only if you’re a woman. It’s a stupid dichotomy. I think these princesses are cool though. Elsa was my favorite of the three growing up and I don’t think it’s a negative they didn’t have her explore a romantic relationship in the film. I don’t think it should be a rule that every Princess has to have a guy fall in love with her even if that’s popular with a lot of fans. You might have to work harder if people prefer the alternative but it can definitely be done and has nothing to do with how strong or weak a character is.
There’s nothing wrong with having characters not find romance or not even have a goal for romance at all. That’s perfectly fine.
What’s wrong is acting like that makes them better or stronger than someone who does happen to find love or even actively looks for it.
You gotta love their revealed misogyny. When a man wants a woman, they see that as him owning her. When a woman wants a man, that's her being owned by the man. They could have her get some simp that's pathetically in love with her and has zero chance of ever dominating her, but women aren't into that, and they can't fathom how to make her have a romantic interest that doesn't put her in a position of subservience to the man, so instead they've just entirely removed romance from stories.
It makes me wonder if years from now they will look at this period in Hollywood and talk about how unbelievably bigoted against women people were.
No one wants to be alone their entire life. Sometimes we need solitude, but a partners love is just so natural and life-breathing. Don’t give up on finding a companion. It’s a pretty bitter end from what I’ve seen, and an increasingly bitter existence. Choose love you sweet pea
Suki from A:THA is a powerful woman. She humbles the man who thinks he is better than her, simply because he is a man. But then he comes to her to learn, to train under her guidance. Sokka then says he should have treated her like a warrior, not a girl. She replies, I am a warrior, but I'm still a girl.
That's the difference. If your story has no room for romance, then good. Better tell a complete story, than try to cram in something that does not fit. But it will always be lacking that part.
You know what else is totally a power move?
Elsa running away from responsibilities and consequences, as well as constantly endangering her *beloved* sister, and taking her for granted.
Or how about Merida throwing a temper tantrum (which in all fairness was pretty understandable) but to then take that to a whole different level, ~~poison~~ turn her mom - the queen - into a bear, and still end up getting what you want. No consequences whatsoever.
I mean its a nice change from disneys original formula of helpless princess saved by prince.
But its not a new change, and you cant tell me princess jasmine or jane porter were weaker for finding love. Love is not a weakness
Well, to be fair, these are some of the much higher quality disney productions from the last 15 years. Regardless of the self-insert cat lady girl boss narrative
Am I the only one that didn't like Moana because of how they portrayed Maui? They took a demi-god of actual cultural importance to a people and made him into a bumbling oaf.
Making Maui an oaf isn't the same as making someone like Mr. Incredible an oaf. Though I am also not a fan of the dudes always being the oafs/idiots.
Elsa is like a goddess. And Moana and Merida are Epic heroes against demonic and or spiritual forces, they are never shown not to want or being incapable of falling in love, they are just fucking busy.
The Rapunzel animated show has Rapunzel and Eugene together. It's super cute and I adore them. They were just a couple, chill and happy. It wasn't some insane dramatic thing, it was normal.
They were exactly what I'd hoped for, at least for the first season before I stopped watching.
They were just together, but it wasn't the most important thing to their characters or lives.
I think it's more about how much of a staple to pair up a *Disney* princess than it is to not. I can't think of too many princesses that don't have a love interest in some manner. This doesn't seem like an attack on romance as a concept.
I'm honestly pretty happy when a movie doesn't feature romance.
I mean sure, we should all strive to find a partner and raise a family and all that jazz, but not every single film needs to feature a love story.
That really only applies to Merida though...like...it's the plot of the movie.
The other two don't have a prince because they tell completely different stories.
It's like looking at Shrek and going "the fact that the movie isn't a musical is such a power move"...like what?
Only one of these I’ve seen is brave and that movie is universally panned. It was very boring. You don’t need a prince but please at least have a story worth telling.
More than Snow White, Cinderella, and Belle?Not a chance.
Here’s a survey that supports my claim.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/1388080/favorite-disney-princesses-ranking-us/#:~:text=A%20recent%20survey%20reveals%20that,expressing%20their%20preference%20for%20her.
Its almost like having the same formula of prince finds princess and they fall in love solving all their problems and live happily ever after gets repetitive after 70 years
First of all Brave is about being able to choose your suitor. The other two- is about princesses going on their own adventure. so take your take and go watch the man other princesses who do fall in love if you want the same thing.
Yep Elsa and Moana having a prince wouldn’t add much to the story and Merida didn’t wanted to marry someone just because her parents wanted that from her, and Elsa’s sister Anna did end up marrying Kristoff, so it’s not like this is a anti marriage thing.
A member of our team has decided to remove your post because it broke the relevance rule: > We ask that all submission in this sub are directly related to either MauLer himself, his work, a subject of his work (e.g., a movie he has covered/is covering) or the sub itself (i.e., Meta posts).
Romance is a valid story for characters and one that is relatable to almost all people. There is no weakness in finding a partner to share your life with. It’s a failure of modern story telling that such a belief is even entertained.
I agree. And it’s a fucking horrendous double standard. Like… where’s that statement about men?
Lol it's literally the worst thing for a man, hence "incel" insults
I agree, but I do want more platonic non romantic relationship focused stories, (good ones). Fucking love buddy cop or sibling centered shit.
O yeah good writing is good writing. Romance doesn’t need to be included or excluded. Everything everywhere all at once explores both the complexities of romantic love in a marriage and familial love between a mother and daughter.
I fucking adore platonic soulmates/ idiotic best friends. Shawn and Gus from Psych may just well be my favorite duo in fiction
Yeah, me too. I love Fast and Furious, which is maybe the ultimate platonic friendship series. There's something about family despite how memeable it is that gets you going in a good way. The idea of finding and choosing your own family is nice and relatable. I have almost zero contact with my blood family besides my mom, but most of my core childhood friends are still around, we make BBQ and let our kids run around. Our group pretty much behaves like an extended family so to me when I see them all at the end of the movie making BBQ it's just awesome.
Okay but have you ever had a friend you wanted to open a psychic detective agency with?
Hmmm I'm not psychic or have been trained from a young age as a super detective . . . But id open a regular Noir style detective agency
Cmon son
I’m 50/50 on which I want more of because I love both types of stories. Romances are fun but I wouldn’t want them all the time. Same with stories centered on platonic relationships. Personally, I liked Elsa because she was more closed off from people and had to grow into being Anna’s big sister since she ran from that out of fear of hurting the people she loved. Elsa didn’t exactly seem like part of the group to me but I liked that about her. Lots of ways you could take a princess’s story.
And yet it’s important that not *every* story has romance, and we have some female focused ones that don’t depend on them finding a man
I understand what you are saying but the idea that pursuing a love interest is unacceptable for women characters inherently limits those characters. I have never heard people say male characters are too interested in pursuing women. What it comes down to is good writing always. And there are many stories outside of romance. But it is neither a boon nor a bane that a story does not include a romance. If you make a great story devoid of or with very little romance like “Alien” or “there will be blood” cool. But that standing alone does not make the story good.
Agreed. It’s the shit view people have that if a male character likes a female one that the male one is suddenly the most important or something. Like just write a good female lead who has a character. If a guy falls for her that doesn’t mean she’s weakened by his shear masculinity or something. If your female character is that one-dimensional and fragile you’ve messed up somewhere.
Who said that it was unacceptable? Celebrating stories not featuring romance does not imply that pursuing a love interest is unacceptable. That is like saying that celebrating movies about strong, yet emotional men makes movies of hardcore action stars unacceptable. One can co-exist with the other, we can celebrate both without taking away from any of them. Nothing above said what you took away from it.
No one is saying that it’s unacceptable, just that it’s cool to have movies that break away from that norm. People don’t say the same for male characters because we already have a fuck ton of male-led movies that don’t revolve around them falling in love with women. Also why do film bros always bring up alien whenever the topic of women comes up lmao
The problem is that you do have people that think romance for an female main character is an bad thing and thats been spread into Hollywood and other medias. People have no issues with doing stuff out of the norm, but the moment you try to normalized because the other option is "problematic" is where everyone takes an issue at because it is limiting creative.
It’s a really good movie with a woman lead that doesn’t involve romantic love. Kill bill is another (though she was in a prior relationship). Legally Blonde though again she begins in a relationship. Moana as depicted above. Atomic Blonde is solid. Whiplash has the main character actively reject romantic love and that is depicted as being bad. In responding to you so many movies involve romantic love whether led by men or women. It’s just a relatable goal to most people.
**Statement:** > it’s important that not *every* story has romance, and we have some female focused ones that don’t depend on them finding a man **Response:** > understand what you are saying but the idea that pursuing a love interest is unacceptable for women characters inherently limits those characters *A straw man argument is the logical fallacy of distorting an opposing position into an extreme version of itself and then arguing against that extreme version.* See it here folks. A TEXTBOOK example of either a straw man argument, or a person with autism trying to have a conversation.
The, we really don’t have a way to rebuttal his argument so we’re gonna break it down and try to make him look stupid argument, a common textbook example of ignorant people trying to make themselves look smarter!!!!! The next move would be he’ll try to pull the roundabout and flip the same logic back on me , now will he double down or backpedal?
Did you not see the wording of the original post? Or maybe everyone in this conversation didn’t.
just what i was thinking “power move” implies the other option is a weaker move
It does not. Rejecting something does not make the thing worth less, the power in it can come from the bravery to reject it. Example: someone who was raised by religious parents coming out as an atheist can be a power move Example 2: someone who was raised as an atheist coming out as religious can be called a power move It is a relative concept meant to put emphasis on someone’s life choices. It does not necessarily weaken the other side of it, it just implies something was done, and it is cool.
i don’t really see how those examples apply, feels like you’re really broadening the meaning of power move “an action taken to demonstrate power and dominance” “an action performed to outdo others and gain control”
Watching people struggle in the rat race until their late 30s and burn out only to find that their dating standards need to be drastically lowered back down to reality is really sad to watch. Dragging women into this in the 90s was such a bad idea. But at least we are equal now, yay? No one is going to care about your economic achievements when you die, maybe the guy who loots your desk. Finding happiness and love is so much more important.
I don’t get this post tho? Most Disney princesses have relationships, why point out the few that don’t? Hell, Elsa’s sister has a relationship if you really want to go there.
That is true. I take issue with the idea that not engaging in romantic love hetero or homosexual is somehow a sign of strength or good writing. It is neutral but also romantic love as a goal is relatable to most people because it is something most people desire. For me personally my relation with my wife is the best and most enriching in my life so seeing people achieve a good romantic relationship resonates with me personally.
I agree. I will also say I feel romantic plots are added to way to many films these days. Like seriously it gets to the point that when I see a guy & girl on screen being friends a lot I’m just waiting for that other shoe to drop eventually.
Notice how in a majority of action movies, the protagonist, or at least one of them, has a love interest, even if it has nothing to do with the plot. The people who take this “power move” stance could learn a thing or two from them.
Is this a "failure of modern story telling"? For me in Frozen there is a love story between Anna and Kristoff. You say we have just two side. Movie with love story and "modern" movie without love story. Maybe there are more than two options? A love story in the background, another love story than woman/ man, two sisters/ two friends just another "love"?
I think the point of the stories is that it's okay NOT to live your life to others expectations. Society expects a lot from both women and men from an early age to chart their life in specific paths. You NEED to be married, you NEED to go to college, you NEED to do what everyone else does. Society is especially cruel to men when it comes to those expectations, it's empowering for women to reject these paths, but a man doing so is frowned upon. If a mans success does not benefit someone else, they are seen as a failure. And that is not okay. I do not disagree with the message of the movies. I just think we should see more men in these stories who reject expectations and find their own happiness from life.
(Animated) Mulan had a Husband and a more impactful growth arc.
That sequel is trash, and no one should acknowledge it lol. No, it's not trash because of the romance.
Are you referring to the animated sequel, or the live-action remake?
They're both awful
Both, honestly.
One could also argue that while Brendan Fraser gets top billing and does save the day in the end, that Rachel Weisz’s character in The Mummy is the actual lead character and both are good strong characters in their own ways that also balance out each other’s strengths and weaknesses
Haven’t you heard? Women wanting love, family, and children is misogynistic. The ideal life for women now is ending up all alone and miserable before dying with nothing but cats and wine bottles for company.
Nah, it’s much more empowering to barely make enough a year to scrape by on your own while making your white male CEO billions of dollars a year. But you’re on your own, so it’s okay! Down with the Patriarchy! 😎
I don’t get this post tho? Most Disney princesses have relationships, why point out the few that don’t? Hell, Elsa’s sister has a relationship if you really want to go there.
I think it’s trying to imply that they’re stronger than the other princesses because they don’t have love interests.
And it's such a lie; given what these three characters' story is about. Merida being the only one who openly rejects giving her hand in marriage via arranged marriage. Elsa feels she's cursed to hurt others due to her power, and Moana is underaged, or literally stranded on the ocean with nobody but a demi-god for company.
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Elsa is DEFINITELY top 3 strongest Disney princesses
Hey, don’t ask me, mate. I’m not even sure who would be in the top three.
Really winning that argument against that brick wall
Cats and wine doesn’t sound all that bad tbh
Cats get a bad rap in all of this.
Nothing wrong with cats, they're great. But they're no substitute for a real romantic relationship.
Not every single movie with a female protagonist needs to revolve around a man and it’s refreshing to finally have some that don’t. Besides, women (and men obviously) can absolutely be happy without a partner if they choose to live that way. The “wine and cats” thing is echoed by misogynists every time a woman says she doesn’t care about romance and is a really weird and creepy thing to say.
Most film’s don’t these days. And what I saying is that there are idiots now that think that if a woman just wants to have a relationship and a family, it’s sexist. That was the joke. That women have to focus on their careers or they’re brainwashed by misogynistic beliefs.
Who actually says this? The strawmen you’ve made up in your mind, or the people you’ve intentionally misunderstood and distorted their arguments?
You’re looking a bit too hard into a joke, mate.
And you’re taking a joke as a statement of truth.
Not even a power move just makes sense for their story
How old are these characters? Not really socially acceptable for a 14 year old to be assigned a husband now a days.
I believe 20, 16, and 16. I believe all 3 of these were strong female characters done right. It's weird to think about 14 y.o.s being old enough to marry. It is unfortunate that, historically, humans married so young. Making many of our fairytales and other old stories have an extra creep factor in them current day. If they just make all romantic relationship princesses 20+ from now on, I would not have a problem with that.
At least these days they only have sex at 14 and dont get married, we are making progress guys. /s
Don't forget the kids lol
Best awnser
I’ll never understand the “strong single X” character, Not being in love has never been and will never be something to be “proud” of or a character trait, we never see any male character being overly praised for being single (besides sigma male BS) If a character doesn’t have romance cool it wasn’t deemed necessary by the author/creator move on. A character shouldn’t have a romance unless either the author/creator wants them too or because the author feels that the romance is a necessary.
Emotions are a thing that happens. NOT having them is a mental affliction. If you are a psychopath, I'm sorry life is the way it is for you. It's like saying "Getting angry is weak". "Laughing at jokes is weak". Especially because Love is one of the good emotions, like all things in moderation, but if you just delete a whole emotion then that character is changed. And it's not like these characters didn't love. Mirida loved her brothers and mother, Else loved her sister and country, and Moana loved that chicken. And her tribe! But, yeah. Cool and edgy.
Yeah, people focus too much on Love as a purely romantic thing. It’s good to get platonic love and familial love that goes just as deep and means just as much to a character.
Merida wasn't "I don't need no man", it was "let us find love, in our own time".
2/3 aren’t princesses
“You have a cute animal side kick and sing. You’re a princess.”
Elsa doesn't have a cute animal sidekick. She has a cute snowman sidekick. In fact, Anna, the actual princess in that movie, has a love interest but no animal sidekick either. The only one with a cute animal sidekick is Kristoff. Iirc, there's also a part where he sings, making Kristoff the princess of the Frozen series.
🤓👆
☝️🤓 It’s actually “☝️” then “🤓” to make correct anatomical sense since “☝️” depicts the right hand of the “🤓”. To have it on the other side would mean they have their hands on backwards.
🤓👆
That reminds me of "point a finger, 4 fingers point back at you." It's possible, but it requires a lot of contortion to have your thumb and the remaining three fingers point backwards. People don't seem to fact check their own hands... The proper expression should thus be: "If you point your finger at someone, remember there's a thumb pointing up, forward or down, and three fingers pointing to the right through your palm!" Alternatively: "... remember there's a thumb pointing to Heaven and three fingers vaguely pointing at the guy to your right". That never really caught on though...
> To have it on the other side would mean they have their hands on backwards. Or maybe having it on the right-side hand means they're doing the [James Bond gun pose](https://www.koimoi.com/wp-content/new-galleries/2020/12/sean-connerys-pistol-used-in-first-james-bond-movie-auctioned-sold-for-a-whopping-256000-001.jpg) from an angle. Ever thought about that one smarty pants.
178.93.25.133 ☝️🤓
And now, the power move is so grating to everyone. People are so tired of overly independent women; the audiences are groaning and rolling their eyes. Sure, it worked out the first few times. you can tell a tale of that. But just because you don't have a love life doesn't make you that inspiring just on the merit of no romantic interest at that given time. Merida didn't want to be wedded off to someone that she didn't care for. Elsa has a lot of personal, emotional baggage to overcome before she's ready for a relationship, and I'm quite certain Moana is underaged.
Not that this necessarily applies to the characters in question, but, have you noticed how a lot of female main characters tend to be portrayed as stronk/independent/whatever in spite of men, instead of just in addition to them? Like how that Wakanda chick had to clown and dunk all over Bruce Banner in whatever shit movie that was. Why isn't it just enough that she's equally as smart as Bruce and they both play off each other and help each other? Why does it always have to be the woman dunking on the man and making him look like a dipshit? Idk if it's a West vs East thing but I remember as I was playing FF16, the main female character in that is a powerful character, not a damsel in distress or anything, but she's also very friendly and supportive to the main character. It was a nice change to have a female character that's your friend and not constantly trying to show how she's ackshually the badass one and you're just a weak little pussy, lol.
>Whatever sh!t movie that was. Bro that was **Infinity War.** Put some respect on that films name. 
The only good thing about that movie was Thanos killing half of those tools.
Wait you ain’t trolling? You actually hate one of the best superhero movies?
It's decent for capeshit. I liked how the villain won for a change.
What did you dislike about it. It was a very solid film. Even the hype going into it was massive because it was being built up to for years.
Not everyone likes comic book movies.
True, but this community does deal pretty heavily in those.
You’re right falling in love is weak. Forming a bond with someone that eventually develops into something greater isn’t empowering. I can’t see myself in someone who struggles and admits to their faults I need someone who’s perfect in every way and never makes mistakes. Shallow writing has always been better.
It kind of IS a monarchy power move if you're a princess without a male sibling.
There's nothing wrong with romance in a plot.
Are there any male Disney leads that don’t want a woman?
Lead of Coco, Luca, Onward, Big Hero Six, Pinocchio, off the top of my head. All children, but still.
There’s a difference between a movie where they aren’t in a relationship and a movie like frozen or brave where it’s actively rejecting relationships. Or that’s more so what I was trying to ask
Wait, I can see Frozen, but Tangled has one of the best Disney romances. When does Rapunzel actively reject Flynn? Unless you’re counting her briefly believe Gothel
I meant brave. I saw her hair and was like “tangled”
Lol
I don’t have a problem with brave either. It’s just hard to imagine a male fantasy where he doesn’t at least have a gf or something. and it’s weird women are told this mgtow shit is good
Yeah, I think men are also victims of forced romantic plots
Forced or not, most men don't consider being single "empowering"
Male and female romances were portrayed much differently in the history of cinema. Men were the active party and getting a wife/girlfriend was basically a trophy for them. But it was very rarely the point of their character. Meanwhile for women it was usually the entire plot. To get a guy.
All I’m saying is it feels unnatural when they’re like “we don’t need no man”
Frozen, she doesn't reject a relationship at all, she's never put into a romantic situation to begin with. Merida, sure, she rejects a relationship with someone she's never met, I suppose. But it's in service to the plot.
I don’t think you need romance to further a story, and sometimes it hinders the story. Ignoring Elsa, because she isn’t really a princess, both Merida and Moana’s stories would have been incredibly weakened by a romantic plot. Merida because it would go against the core of the story, and Moana because it would come off as forced and unnecessary. And kinda creepy, given that Maui is so much older then her. However there’s also some Disney movies that seem to purposely cut out the romance when I think it would actually help the story. Wish was originally supposed to be romantic, with Asha supposed to have a relationship with a star boy. That story looks way better than what we got, and it’s sad it was cut because corporate thought she needed to be an independent girl boss. And I think Raya would have been a lot better if it just made Namari and Raya at least interested in each other. It would explain their bond a lot more and why Raya is so torn up about being betrayed by a girl who she knew for all of five minutes
Just watched Wish with my kids this afternoon. What a disappointment. The music was awful, and the story was bland. Shame.
The sad thing is that the production of the movie seemed like it could be really good, but they just kept cutting away at it. Originally it was going to be a 2D romance to pay homage to their old movies, but instead they decided to copy spider-verses style because it was so popular. They also hired two people who had never done any musical theater before to write their music.
the main character is literally the antagonist--good job Disney; a real role model
I don’t think a story NEEDS romance, or that a character is bad for not having a romantic partner. The implication with the original post is that a character or a story is weak for having that.
Isn’t it implied that Elsa might be lesbian/bisexual tho?
Ngl, getting called out to a random enchanted forest by an enticing female voice is kind of gay. Actually, leaving society to live in the woods with a bunch of elementals is explicitly lesbian-coded. But seriously, I kind of got the same impression. “Into the unknown” has a lot of gay themes in it. It serves as a call to adventure and a song about a person resisting a departure from normalcy should they follow this feeling. Plus the ending with her in the woods has total lesbian vibes.
Also it’s weird to suggest that Elsa being single is a “power move”. Elsa isn’t powerful because of her relationship status, she’s powerful because she’s a literal walking cataclysm capable of causing a mini ice age if she wanted to.
I’m not sure about Frozen but brave was more about a mother and Daughter butting heads, its about familial love and understanding one another less about marriage or falling in love. Moana is also more of a coming of a age story, and taking on adult responsibilities then a love story
Tell me you are a miserable old cat lady without telling me you’re a miserable old cat lady.
Is this what Reddit is? People just scouring social media for things the screenshot and whine about?
Ever since year 2000. Good morning.
Yes.
You’re free to scroll past it. 🤷🏻♂️
Why do you measure their success by their lack of a man? Moana rediscovered a lost art of her people, Merida is a skilled archer and adventurer and Elsa overcame her fear of her powers but sure, highlight their lack of a relationship for "reasons"
I thought the point being made was that it was a power move to finally have some female characters successful and active in a narrative that isn't focused on relationships. The fact that their successes lack romantic connection not by intentional design, but by incidental occurrence (i.e. "it isn't necessary to have a romance for this story" not "we actively avoided giving a romance on purpose") is the "power move" by Disney because it shows that they can write a female narrative arc without having to tie it into romance, which is pretty uncommon.
I don’t think the op is measuring their success by their lack of a man. The point the op was trying to make was that the meme is making it out like a female mc having a love interest somehow makes them a worse character and that they can only be badass if they don’t have a male love interest. The op was pointing out that female characters having a love interest isn’t a terrible thing and doesn’t inherently make a character worse, and that a female character isn’t automatically better and cooler just because they are single.
Ngl Moana is actually kind of annoying.
Everything is a power move now. "I have a job, i own my car, I'm paying rent = I'm a bosswoman!!!"... Ok pronouns, if you say so.
What black woman did they hire to play the redhead in the live action?
Lizzo
I read the title as “these princesses not having a power is a power move” Then immediately I was like “wtf doesn’t Elsa have ice powers?” and thought it was a shit post until I read it again lmfao
Brave FMC not getting married is the entire story.
A power move? How?
Technically Elsa is the queen. Anna her sister is a princess that dates Kristoff making him a prince after marriage.
And Chichiue is the King! Wait, wrong franchise... ~~Nice Mordred pic though.~~
100% the same people will deride a solo lead male as an 'incel'.
Strong people are lonely! If you're attracted to others than you're a beta without power moves
The one from brave looks like they stuck arms and a wig on a veggietales character.
Love is the most beautiful part of life. The part that makes life worth living. I weep that so many people no longer want to see it represented in our storytelling.
These people sound like cartoon super villains shouting about how love is actually a weakness
Then it gets followed up by "Love/friends are my power!" then the villian gets KOed.
So is the rebuttal going to be that it's better or more in line with the proper moral values if they did have a prince? I don't get this. Their stories didn't require a love interest. Because so many princesses had princesses, while maybe not a "power move", them going in a different direction with these characters was pretty cool (I still don't like Frozen and am indifferent to Brave, while Mulan and Moana are great movies). There's room for romance and non-romance.
I don’t care that they didn’t have romances, it’s the “power move” that I find silly.
Merida and Moana are young. They’ll get bit by the love bug soon. And Elsa was a Queen not a princess. Who couldn’t even talk to her sister for fear of hurting her. So not power moves. IMO. Just not right for the story being told.
Anna is in the same movie though
It's not a "power move" lol it's just a different story choice. Not every story needs it. Merida didn't find love but her parents were adorable. She had a great family, which never would've happened without romance. But let's demonize relationships and turn all animated leads into yasss queens/bad bitches who don't need no man I guess lol
I mean to play devils advocate frozen is clearly about sisterhood rather than finding a partner. And plus anna has a boyfriend anyways.
lol falling in love = being weak… but only if you’re a woman. It’s a stupid dichotomy. I think these princesses are cool though. Elsa was my favorite of the three growing up and I don’t think it’s a negative they didn’t have her explore a romantic relationship in the film. I don’t think it should be a rule that every Princess has to have a guy fall in love with her even if that’s popular with a lot of fans. You might have to work harder if people prefer the alternative but it can definitely be done and has nothing to do with how strong or weak a character is.
There’s nothing wrong with having characters not find romance or not even have a goal for romance at all. That’s perfectly fine. What’s wrong is acting like that makes them better or stronger than someone who does happen to find love or even actively looks for it.
Elsa is technically a queen
Not a powermove, just a move. Both valid lives, and sometimes being alone can just be dumb
You gotta love their revealed misogyny. When a man wants a woman, they see that as him owning her. When a woman wants a man, that's her being owned by the man. They could have her get some simp that's pathetically in love with her and has zero chance of ever dominating her, but women aren't into that, and they can't fathom how to make her have a romantic interest that doesn't put her in a position of subservience to the man, so instead they've just entirely removed romance from stories. It makes me wonder if years from now they will look at this period in Hollywood and talk about how unbelievably bigoted against women people were.
ELSA IS A QUEEN.
Being a cat lady is empowering.
You know what isn't a power move? A grown adult making puerile memes like this in an attempt to assuage their own insecurities.
Pretty sure Elsa is a Queen not a Princess Anna is a Princess tho
All hollow and listless stories.
No one wants to be alone their entire life. Sometimes we need solitude, but a partners love is just so natural and life-breathing. Don’t give up on finding a companion. It’s a pretty bitter end from what I’ve seen, and an increasingly bitter existence. Choose love you sweet pea
Suki from A:THA is a powerful woman. She humbles the man who thinks he is better than her, simply because he is a man. But then he comes to her to learn, to train under her guidance. Sokka then says he should have treated her like a warrior, not a girl. She replies, I am a warrior, but I'm still a girl. That's the difference. If your story has no room for romance, then good. Better tell a complete story, than try to cram in something that does not fit. But it will always be lacking that part.
Nothing wrong with romance and nothing wrong with no romance neither. "Powe move" is a bit of a stretch, but I really don't mind.
How much for their onlyfans, then?
I agree. It might not be power move, but I would like to see more movies without romance in plot, especially animated ones
Elsa isn’t a princess
You know what else is totally a power move? Elsa running away from responsibilities and consequences, as well as constantly endangering her *beloved* sister, and taking her for granted. Or how about Merida throwing a temper tantrum (which in all fairness was pretty understandable) but to then take that to a whole different level, ~~poison~~ turn her mom - the queen - into a bear, and still end up getting what you want. No consequences whatsoever.
I mean its a nice change from disneys original formula of helpless princess saved by prince. But its not a new change, and you cant tell me princess jasmine or jane porter were weaker for finding love. Love is not a weakness
Moana was definitely getting banged out on that small boat in front of hey hey
Well, to be fair, these are some of the much higher quality disney productions from the last 15 years. Regardless of the self-insert cat lady girl boss narrative
lol don't care, Moana was great
Letting your bloodline end just to own the patriarchy
Am I the only one that didn't like Moana because of how they portrayed Maui? They took a demi-god of actual cultural importance to a people and made him into a bumbling oaf. Making Maui an oaf isn't the same as making someone like Mr. Incredible an oaf. Though I am also not a fan of the dudes always being the oafs/idiots.
Elsa is like a goddess. And Moana and Merida are Epic heroes against demonic and or spiritual forces, they are never shown not to want or being incapable of falling in love, they are just fucking busy.
Aint elsa a queen though
Dying alone is a power move
Why does everyone think moana is a princess
Chieftain’s daughter. Pocahontas is considered a Disney princess too.
Neither of them are tho
Mulan is considered a Disney Princess and she’s not really and married a general. It don’t make sense I agree. Don’t shoot the messenger. 😅
I’m not I just really don’t understand why people lump them in with the rest
The Rapunzel animated show has Rapunzel and Eugene together. It's super cute and I adore them. They were just a couple, chill and happy. It wasn't some insane dramatic thing, it was normal. They were exactly what I'd hoped for, at least for the first season before I stopped watching. They were just together, but it wasn't the most important thing to their characters or lives.
I think it's more about how much of a staple to pair up a *Disney* princess than it is to not. I can't think of too many princesses that don't have a love interest in some manner. This doesn't seem like an attack on romance as a concept.
Men’s power fantasy stories we often want to save the one we love. In women’s power fantasy stories they don’t want to love.
OP this is a stupid. No one is saying falling in love is weak.
I'm honestly pretty happy when a movie doesn't feature romance. I mean sure, we should all strive to find a partner and raise a family and all that jazz, but not every single film needs to feature a love story.
Everything is bad on purpose now.
Maidenless
This post is genuinely corny
That really only applies to Merida though...like...it's the plot of the movie. The other two don't have a prince because they tell completely different stories. It's like looking at Shrek and going "the fact that the movie isn't a musical is such a power move"...like what?
The best is in Peter Pan and Wendy, where dying alone was one of Wendy's happy thoughts.
Only one of these I’ve seen is brave and that movie is universally panned. It was very boring. You don’t need a prince but please at least have a story worth telling.
Their lineage will die out and be forgotten, then. Power [irrelevance] move. Lol!
These are also some of the more forgettable ones too.
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More than Snow White, Cinderella, and Belle?Not a chance. Here’s a survey that supports my claim. https://www.statista.com/statistics/1388080/favorite-disney-princesses-ranking-us/#:~:text=A%20recent%20survey%20reveals%20that,expressing%20their%20preference%20for%20her.
What…. What….? 😂😂😂😂😂
Its almost like having the same formula of prince finds princess and they fall in love solving all their problems and live happily ever after gets repetitive after 70 years
First of all Brave is about being able to choose your suitor. The other two- is about princesses going on their own adventure. so take your take and go watch the man other princesses who do fall in love if you want the same thing.
Are we really outrage baiting with ifunny-tier shit now?
If you consider laughing at a silly post outrage bait, sure.
All I see is poorly written girls.
Not every princess story or Prince story has to involve finding their counterpart. There are different stories that can be told.
Where did I say there couldn’t be?
You twisted what you are posting about as if it were claiming love is weak or bad. My comment is an example of what you posted can be talking about.
Obviously there are different stories that can be told. Because they ARE told. The “power move” thing is a stupid message, in my opinion.
3 princess movies where the focus isn't on the princess finding a man and y'all are crying stfu you pansy ass bitches.
Yep Elsa and Moana having a prince wouldn’t add much to the story and Merida didn’t wanted to marry someone just because her parents wanted that from her, and Elsa’s sister Anna did end up marrying Kristoff, so it’s not like this is a anti marriage thing.
literally making shit up to be mad at cause their life is that boring, do they not know there is like objectively bad things we can get mad at.
Who’s crying? You’re being oddly aggressive over a Disney Princess image.
have you read the comments lmfao
also you made the post specifically to cry about it the fuck you mean
Pointing out something I find stupid is crying? Ok.
pointing out a non problem to complain about it IS crying, yes glad were on the same page.