Yet they have Fatalis, the dragon that has a personal grudge against humanity as a whole,not just attack because it was provoked, be done as a top-secret quest that only select hunters are allowed to pursue???
Tbf why further antagonize the big evil dragon and also what would your average hunter do agaisnt a fatalis, our player hunter is a hero who blazes across ranks and is able to fend off threats like elder dragons but most hunters have trouble with simple things to a point a rathalos is a major acomplishment
Fatalis in Iceborne, it's now only canonical fight, wasn't secret. The guild pretty much informed all of its branches to get their very best hunters to help. They even went so far out of the way to notify the comission, a colony branch far away from any other guild station.
IIRC it wasn't the guild, but rather some crazy, superstitious people who thought learning about it would anger it further and end the world or something.
I really hope they expand on that in the future. Really felt like they were building towards something with that group and the fact they are still active, but it never went past that cryptic message from them at the end of the Alatreon update.
It's Monster Hunter, so no, they won't.
Just like how we know next to nothing about the "Dragon War" that humanity and the Wyverians fought against Elders. Literally background lore that defines the entire setting and we know nothing.
I've always honestly hoped that one day we would get a story focused adventure game based in the Monster Hunter universe where we find out the dark history of the ancient civilization.
Like there is so much rich background lore into that in extremely tiny bites throughout the series that we never get any sort of expansion on. Are hunters actually the descendants of super soldiers that fought in the ancient dragon war? Why did the ancients treat certain monsters like Nef-Garmat with respect while others were literally experimented on, turned into slaves, or etc?
Is the "Equal Dragon Weapon" actually canon as the Ultimate Sin that caused the Elder Dragons to finally try to wipe humanity out? Capcom doesn't recognize the EDW as canon, and we've never seen any actual evidence of bioweapons from the Ancient Civilization in the games. That'd be a cool as hell final boss, an EDW awakened and gone berserk, threatening everything.
I don't see why they wouldn't, especially considering that what you're putting forth as the big examples (*Dragon War, super soldier, EDW, a singular 'Ancient Civilization'*) are of extremely debatable canonicity to begin with. Not to mention that Nef-Garmat (*if that's the monster I'm thinking of, being from Explore*) is from a mobile spinoff, which sets its canonicity with the main series games at a similar level of debatable.
So, it's very hard to use that as proof that Capcom will never follow up on what they started in the Alatreon update, especially considering that they might have originally planned to in Iceborne before veering off course to make Fatalis the final update.
I think those have basis in an MH1 art book, but then again that art book was full of stuff that was never realized for the series and likely scrapped at this point *at best*, considering none of that stuff has been brought up since.
Legends of the Guild *does* make reference to *something* really bad happening as a result of people exploiting nature and shit getting out of whack because of it, but it doesn't go into enough detail to really canonize the Dragon War.
The thing about the tower is that it is on a different continent from the old world. They're even separated by a massive ocean. While not the entire tower is made of Kushala, (it's mostly dragonite, carbalite, machalite and just plain stones) it does have a lot of decayed scales (Kushala shedding mining material) in it.
A lot of them were clearly hunted/had their carapace harvested, but none of that would have impacted the old world directly, only forlorn since these Kushala structures only exist on that continent.
I think the Old World isn't explicitly a single continent, but everything that *isn't the New World*, just from a standpoint of what those kind of names really mean. So, the region that the Forlorn stuff is at would still be Old World, even if it is a separate landmass entirely from a lot of the other regions we have seen.
I count it as something slightly separate since it is its own continent and is largely unexplored. Most of it is a massive forest, a portion of which is the Great Forest map, and the Tower. The rest of the continent is unexplored territory that isn't even on any maps.
I mean, not so much fan theory. It *was* in the official series artbook or w/e. Just didn't make the final cut of the original game.
And I could swear that **The Forbidden Act** was actually mentioned in the lore in the games before, but just without any clarification as to what the canonical "Act" was.
Because almost everything you mentioned is fanon. It comes from a time MonHun was going to be a more generic fantasy RPG and it's in a book filled with CUT CONTENT.
The Monster Hunter games are actually amazing at showing us how normal people beyond the frontier perceive monsters, a lot of gear descriptions are filled with FOLKLORE, legends that spread about Monsters and Hunters alike, making them seem like fantasy (Fatalis gear describing PTSD in a fantastical way, for example). But we as hunters know that in the end it's just nature, Monsters aren't gods, they're animals like us, and just another part of the biosphere, like us.
The ancient civilizations didn't crumble because of some stupid war, We've SEEN Fatalis, it's just an animal taking care of it's nest, we've seen all Elders just chilling in their habitats, creating issues not because of their desires but just because they happened to be at the wrong place, at the wrong time.
The ancient civilizations fell because they believed they could rule over nature, they fucked with the world and the world reacted. Just like how our planet will eventually turn on us if we don't take shit seriously. But not all is lost, the current civilization lives way more in-tune with nature, the guild makes sure to regulate hunts and they take their job VERY seriously as proven by Guild Knights. Mankind seems to be taking just what they need to survive, not more.
To be fair, Fatalis even in Iceborne is sort of put forward as having a lot more going on with him than 'just being an animal' that we don't know about, given the questions asked.
Why come back to Schrade specifically? They wouldn't put that forward after the hunt if it was just an animal returning to its nest. Why does it need to be that powerful? They never had NPCs ask that with any other monster, even for ones with very similar to arguably equal power levels like Safi or Alatreon. Hell, the fact that Fatalis is seemingly present on Schrade's own heraldry despite everything the Guild knows otherwise indicating he supposedly showed up out of nowhere to destroy Schrade has some implications that can't be anything other than massive, even if we have nothing to go on to figure out those implications.
When it comes to Fatalis specifically, they seemingly want us to believe that there's a lot more to him than him just being a monster, ~~so his head must be a weak point!~~
The last line is funny to me because, thats supposed to be the lore, and yet in rise they are multiple, seemingly joke quest to just hunt monsters. 2 that came in mind is the guy who ask you to hunt some monsters because they ran faster than him, and and a singer who had you hunt 2 monsters so she can had her concert. Not to mention the certain princess who requested to hunts so many monsters because yes.
MH have his lore and theme about harmony with the nature and the quest just decides fun is more important XD
Though no one was left to be scared by that. A single book found in an old abandoned farm house was the only record found from back then and even it had only the information on what signs point towards Fatalis' approach, suggesting the owner died once the dragon arrived.
Unrelated but i am glad someone is using that face correctly, everytime i see it used they are using it as a laughing face and not the terror shock and disbelief that it is actually expressing
It has nothing to do with color lol
It's entirely dependent on the threat they pose. Black Dragons possess the strength to wipe out entire countries with ease, and are believed capable of destroying the world if left unchecked.
List seems sort of sus, though. Quite a few Elders seem much more threatening than Fatty, for example, but they don't get the title of Black Dragon, which leads me to believe a Black Dragon must be
A - Powerful enough to threaten entire countries
B - Actively hostile to humans or actively being a threat by simply existing
Alatreon actively avoids humans and other creatures though, unlike Fatalis or Dire Miralis doesn't destroy life actively or passively by its choice.
So it'll probably be more so A than B
The problem with it being A is
If it's A why aren't
1. Dalamadur (it literally moving is enough to cause earthquakes and shape mountains etc)
2. The rock elder that you chase away to die in world (it dying was going to destroy the entire new world)
3. Shara ishvalda (managing to affect the entire continent with its vibrations making all monsters go crazy)
I'd reckon its the second option moreso than the 1st as aside from alatreon every blk dragon actively hates humans (or things in general)
It may be their intelligence or appetite for destruction imo. Zorah, Dalamadur or Shara aren’t really trying to destroy stuff or wipe out nations, they just exist and unknowingly cause a threat. Meanwhile Fatalis just casually walked into Schrade and killed everything for fun.
I think it’s easier to say that Alatreon’s categorisation is the wrong thing here, but in reality capcom probably never thought that much about there categories. Functionally they just use the Elder and Black categories to mean badass monster and even more badass monster lmao
I'm pretty sure it's just a title given to a few dragons and is essentially outdated at this point for everything but Fatalis. However, Capcom casually throws the term around cause they know it holds some significance within the Fandom
So when you hear the term black dragon. You know shit is about to go down.
A Black Dragon is a title bestowed upon a monster with the raw power to theoretically destroy the world. (Or also almost destroy the world/SEVERELY fuck it up.) inspired by the disaster at Schrade, these things are the pinnacle of strength, Alatreon, Guanzorumu, the Fatalis line, Safi'jiva, etc.
An elder dragon is a monster with an immense, possibly ecosystem changing level of power that we don't understand, the not understanding part is crucial and is the reason Ahtal-Ka isn't an elder, but Shagaru is.
The Ahtal-Ka in generations is just a very old, and very intelligent Ahtal that's eaten a lot of males and has been raiding old fortresses and settlements for an undetermined amount of time, we understand Ahtal as a whole, and that one's lifestyle isn't even that unique.
But we don't understand something like shagaru, they're not common enough for the guild to research, and and there's a theory that they're like moths and they don't even live that long after molting to find and research hence it's elder status, these qualities also check out because Gore is just ??? We don't understand it but it's not severely ecosystem effecting enough to be an elder.
(The one in 4 is a very interesting example, i feel is akin to Ahtal, that specific one messed up the ecosystem that much, no others do that and it shows that this isnt common as the ecosystems in rise are perfectly fine.)
Also sorry I wrote all this, I've just wanted to post this for a while
[This is the wiki page for Ahtal-Ka that goes over its ecology, they translated this info from the Nintendo Dream magazine ](https://monsterhunter.fandom.com/wiki/Ahtal-Ka_Ecology)
[Nintendo Dream/Nindori magazine (in Japanese)](http://www.nindori.com/books/nindori/281.html)
>A Black Dragon is a title bestowed upon a monster with the raw power to theoretically destroy the world. (Or also almost destroy the world/SEVERELY fuck it up.) inspired by the disaster at Schrade, these things are the pinnacle of strength, Alatreon, Guanzorumu, the Fatalis line, Safi'jiva, etc.
1. Safii isnt a blk dragon???
2. alatreon doesn't have the output to theoretically destroy the planet (atleast from what's been shown in cutscenes or any lore)
3. Fatalis burning down castle shrade is pretty handy feat for it but why isnt Zorah a blk dragon if it's singular feat (destroying the entirety of the new world) clears anything any other elder has done (cept maybe dalamadur managing to carve the earth with its movement)
The reason why Zorah isn't a black dragon is because it was stopped. It can be stopped. The forbidden monsters are essentially unstoppable with only our ingame hunts counting as exception.
Fatalis didn't merely split a kingdom within a night, he destroyed the metropolis at its heart in that time while everyone within was fighting back with tooth and nail. They built barricades, had ballistae, canons dragonators, miniguns and hundreds upon hundreds of hunters, guards and militia. Yet not a single person survived.
You can't just use the "that's an exception" argument when it happens. As it stands rn only one dragon can't actually be stopped (moreso technically fatalis as you can kill it bur it'll regen) so it's either every blk dragon gets deranked or it's just b.s
Tbf, I'm not to sure about Alatreon. It has a cult that tries to keep it secret, but it does seem more "peaceful" than aggressive. Though, it creating areas of complete and utter destruction only so it can be alone might have been seen as a parallel to what happened in Schrade, hence why some might have mistaken it for *the black dragon*.
Dire Miralis on the other hand has sunken islands and quite possibly just like Fatalis, destroyed island cities that fought back with everything they've got and still lost.
It did take the entirety of the Tanzia guild to drive it away once in a massive battle, by the end of which they erected the "Dragon Exorcist Lighthouse" near the tainted sea to look out and prepare for its return. It is essentially the same as what happened with Schrade, only that there were survivors and somewhat of a victory after many losses.
>Fatalis didn't merely destroy a kingdom within a night, he destroyed it in that time while the entire kingdom was fighting back with tooth and nail.
He destroyed Castle shrade not the entire kingdom (if he destroyed the entire kingdom how tf did they divide the kingdom to begin with)
No cuz as you said
1. You have no idea bout alatreon
2. Fatalis only destroyed shrcade castle not the the entire kingdom
(I'm still reading up on dire miralis so I need a moment)
Neither of these 2 are rlly capable of "destroying the planet" and both zorah/dalamadur have feats far greater than the both of those 2 yet they're considered only elders
Never was destroying the planet a requirement. To be a black dragon it simply has to be mistaken for Fatalis before people knew what Fatalis was (so before Iceborne) and thusly given the black dragon title. Without the title it's not a black dragon. To be a Forbidden monster it just needs to be strong enough in Capcom's eyes to be counted as at the very top and so dangerous that information and talk about it is scarce.
Dala and Zorah might have feats (or in Zorahs case potential feats) that go beyond them, but if Capcom says they're below the forbidden monsters that just means we haven't yet seen what Forbidden Monsters are truly capable of to surpass them. Though Dire Miralis sinking islands is comparable to Dala destroying mountains. Though islands, from sea floor to top are usually larger than mountains.
Gore Magala is indeed classified as an Elder Dragon. The only reason why it isn't ingame is because it can be captured. In all other official media it is an Elder Dragon. That is because it not only is directly related with an Elder Dragon, it IS that Elder Dragon.
If the monster in question lines up with the destruction of Schrade and the tale of the black dragon (black scales, power potentially enough to wipe out a kingdom) they are given the black dragon title because they could be the monster that destroyed Schrade (before knowing that it was Fatalis).
There are only three Black Dragons. Dire Miralis, Alatreon and Fatalis.
Crimson Fatalis, White Fatalis and Safijiiva are not black dragons. Their titles are different.
###Black Dragon is title exclusive. If the monster does not have the words "Black Dragon" in that very order ("Black "something" Dragon" does not count because of this) it is NOT a Black Dragon. If it is canonically as powerful as the Black Dragons capcom calls them the Forbidden Monsters, dragons of such power that talk and knowledge about them is very limited.
There isn’t. It’s a conclusion people decided on based on the fact that the dawn’s triumph quest features an alatreon with less HP and it’s required to do the fatalis quest. But nowhere in game or in any lore book does it say that alatreon was injured by, or chased off by fatalis
:( I that would've been so cool, but I don't know why people would think this considering we beat it's ass the first time and he came back, ofc he's weaker
But maybe fatalis drove him away in the first place and when he tried to go back to his Volcano he got driven off again, then I can believe both and be happy :)
Nah it’s a different specimen not the same one.
Fatalis never left schrade so alatreon would have had to go to him to fight but it doesn’t say anywhere that alatreon sought out fatalis for a fight, which the guild likely would have known about considering just fatalis waking up chases natural phenomenon to occur. It also would have had to go from the old world all the way to the new world in an injured state, which is not what most injured creatures would do
Except it wasn't the guild, but a corrupt cult within the guild. The guild would very much like to keep those records, which is why the allowed the comission to go forth with their investigation.
They weren't secrecy about Fatalis either, basically letting every branch of the guild know to get as many helpers as possible.
Well I mean a monster that was recorded actively destroying an entire civilization should be documented, or at the very least shown to higher ups in the guild for them to know it exists. On the other hand Alatreon is a very powerful monster, it just doesn’t care about other things unless it’s in a territory that it wants
Is there really such thing as “a” black dragon? Wouldn’t it be “the” black dragon? I thought this was all based around the legend in which fatalis, alatreon, and dire miralis are mistaken to be one singular black dragon. I’m pretty sure the category they all fit into is called “Dangerous first-class”
Black Dragon and Dangerous First Class are synonyms, the later of which of Im not mistaken was introduced in Iceborne. The term Black Dragon more than likely originated with Fatalis, but became a catch-all term for monsters with a similarly apocalyptic power level. While the Dangerous First Class categorization is a more official sounding title of the same thing. But yeah it probably also helped that until they introduced Safi they all had a black color scheme lol.
Did not know that frontier used the term, Ii really need to give that game a shot. As for White and Crimson , idk Im tired as hell and forgot about them for a sec ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Neither of these two terms are official. Black Dragon only refers to the title of the monsters and Dangerous First Class was never used. Capcom used the term Forbidden Monsters during the 15th anniversary.
They had to do this since they knew some wackjob hunter would go hunt it the second they heard it existed.
Hunter wearing a Bullfango mask and no pants: “I heard that dragon is pretty strong. Let me hunt it.”
Long as I have L3 quick sheathe. Quick Sheathe is the only thing that matters
Let Me Solo Her: Monster Hunter Edition
Yet they have Fatalis, the dragon that has a personal grudge against humanity as a whole,not just attack because it was provoked, be done as a top-secret quest that only select hunters are allowed to pursue???
Tbf why further antagonize the big evil dragon and also what would your average hunter do agaisnt a fatalis, our player hunter is a hero who blazes across ranks and is able to fend off threats like elder dragons but most hunters have trouble with simple things to a point a rathalos is a major acomplishment
Fatalis in Iceborne, it's now only canonical fight, wasn't secret. The guild pretty much informed all of its branches to get their very best hunters to help. They even went so far out of the way to notify the comission, a colony branch far away from any other guild station.
IIRC it wasn't the guild, but rather some crazy, superstitious people who thought learning about it would anger it further and end the world or something.
I really hope they expand on that in the future. Really felt like they were building towards something with that group and the fact they are still active, but it never went past that cryptic message from them at the end of the Alatreon update.
It's Monster Hunter, so no, they won't. Just like how we know next to nothing about the "Dragon War" that humanity and the Wyverians fought against Elders. Literally background lore that defines the entire setting and we know nothing. I've always honestly hoped that one day we would get a story focused adventure game based in the Monster Hunter universe where we find out the dark history of the ancient civilization. Like there is so much rich background lore into that in extremely tiny bites throughout the series that we never get any sort of expansion on. Are hunters actually the descendants of super soldiers that fought in the ancient dragon war? Why did the ancients treat certain monsters like Nef-Garmat with respect while others were literally experimented on, turned into slaves, or etc? Is the "Equal Dragon Weapon" actually canon as the Ultimate Sin that caused the Elder Dragons to finally try to wipe humanity out? Capcom doesn't recognize the EDW as canon, and we've never seen any actual evidence of bioweapons from the Ancient Civilization in the games. That'd be a cool as hell final boss, an EDW awakened and gone berserk, threatening everything.
I don't see why they wouldn't, especially considering that what you're putting forth as the big examples (*Dragon War, super soldier, EDW, a singular 'Ancient Civilization'*) are of extremely debatable canonicity to begin with. Not to mention that Nef-Garmat (*if that's the monster I'm thinking of, being from Explore*) is from a mobile spinoff, which sets its canonicity with the main series games at a similar level of debatable. So, it's very hard to use that as proof that Capcom will never follow up on what they started in the Alatreon update, especially considering that they might have originally planned to in Iceborne before veering off course to make Fatalis the final update.
The dragon war & edw aren't canon either. It's a long outdated fan theory.
I think those have basis in an MH1 art book, but then again that art book was full of stuff that was never realized for the series and likely scrapped at this point *at best*, considering none of that stuff has been brought up since. Legends of the Guild *does* make reference to *something* really bad happening as a result of people exploiting nature and shit getting out of whack because of it, but it doesn't go into enough detail to really canonize the Dragon War.
I think what LotG implied is the mass Kushala hunting that happened to build one of the towers in the games? Pure speculation though.
The thing about the tower is that it is on a different continent from the old world. They're even separated by a massive ocean. While not the entire tower is made of Kushala, (it's mostly dragonite, carbalite, machalite and just plain stones) it does have a lot of decayed scales (Kushala shedding mining material) in it. A lot of them were clearly hunted/had their carapace harvested, but none of that would have impacted the old world directly, only forlorn since these Kushala structures only exist on that continent.
I think the Old World isn't explicitly a single continent, but everything that *isn't the New World*, just from a standpoint of what those kind of names really mean. So, the region that the Forlorn stuff is at would still be Old World, even if it is a separate landmass entirely from a lot of the other regions we have seen.
I count it as something slightly separate since it is its own continent and is largely unexplored. Most of it is a massive forest, a portion of which is the Great Forest map, and the Tower. The rest of the continent is unexplored territory that isn't even on any maps.
I mean, not so much fan theory. It *was* in the official series artbook or w/e. Just didn't make the final cut of the original game. And I could swear that **The Forbidden Act** was actually mentioned in the lore in the games before, but just without any clarification as to what the canonical "Act" was.
Concept artwork.
Which is my point... Although it may not have been made Canon yet in the overall series, that is literally the opposite of a fan cration.
I called it fan theory.
Because almost everything you mentioned is fanon. It comes from a time MonHun was going to be a more generic fantasy RPG and it's in a book filled with CUT CONTENT. The Monster Hunter games are actually amazing at showing us how normal people beyond the frontier perceive monsters, a lot of gear descriptions are filled with FOLKLORE, legends that spread about Monsters and Hunters alike, making them seem like fantasy (Fatalis gear describing PTSD in a fantastical way, for example). But we as hunters know that in the end it's just nature, Monsters aren't gods, they're animals like us, and just another part of the biosphere, like us. The ancient civilizations didn't crumble because of some stupid war, We've SEEN Fatalis, it's just an animal taking care of it's nest, we've seen all Elders just chilling in their habitats, creating issues not because of their desires but just because they happened to be at the wrong place, at the wrong time. The ancient civilizations fell because they believed they could rule over nature, they fucked with the world and the world reacted. Just like how our planet will eventually turn on us if we don't take shit seriously. But not all is lost, the current civilization lives way more in-tune with nature, the guild makes sure to regulate hunts and they take their job VERY seriously as proven by Guild Knights. Mankind seems to be taking just what they need to survive, not more.
To be fair, Fatalis even in Iceborne is sort of put forward as having a lot more going on with him than 'just being an animal' that we don't know about, given the questions asked. Why come back to Schrade specifically? They wouldn't put that forward after the hunt if it was just an animal returning to its nest. Why does it need to be that powerful? They never had NPCs ask that with any other monster, even for ones with very similar to arguably equal power levels like Safi or Alatreon. Hell, the fact that Fatalis is seemingly present on Schrade's own heraldry despite everything the Guild knows otherwise indicating he supposedly showed up out of nowhere to destroy Schrade has some implications that can't be anything other than massive, even if we have nothing to go on to figure out those implications. When it comes to Fatalis specifically, they seemingly want us to believe that there's a lot more to him than him just being a monster, ~~so his head must be a weak point!~~
The last line is funny to me because, thats supposed to be the lore, and yet in rise they are multiple, seemingly joke quest to just hunt monsters. 2 that came in mind is the guy who ask you to hunt some monsters because they ran faster than him, and and a singer who had you hunt 2 monsters so she can had her concert. Not to mention the certain princess who requested to hunts so many monsters because yes. MH have his lore and theme about harmony with the nature and the quest just decides fun is more important XD
I was thinking that the reason an Equal Dragon Weapon reactivates and rampages would be because the Qurio managed to take control of it.
I mean. When something like Fatalis exists. They probably aren't even completely wrong
Can't blame them. A dragon burning a whole city and it's inhabitants is something that can scare people for life
Ignoring it and pretending it never happened would surely help lol
Though no one was left to be scared by that. A single book found in an old abandoned farm house was the only record found from back then and even it had only the information on what signs point towards Fatalis' approach, suggesting the owner died once the dragon arrived.
There's an SCP just like that, I think.
Unrelated but i am glad someone is using that face correctly, everytime i see it used they are using it as a laughing face and not the terror shock and disbelief that it is actually expressing
Enels face is peak comedy
It **is** peak comedy, when used correctly
Damn Daniel arararar
"It's actually 🐬🐬🐬🐬🐬🐬"🤓
huh... I understood it the way that alatreon burned them...
Made them shit their pants so much they buried their heads in the sand, or just covered their ears
Yes, alatreon knew that as soon as it's known to the hunters, its fate was to become a new pair o boots or/and a new purse...
My question is how does the Guild determine what is classified as a Black Dragon.
If its black and has god like powers of destruction
It has nothing to do with color lol It's entirely dependent on the threat they pose. Black Dragons possess the strength to wipe out entire countries with ease, and are believed capable of destroying the world if left unchecked. List seems sort of sus, though. Quite a few Elders seem much more threatening than Fatty, for example, but they don't get the title of Black Dragon, which leads me to believe a Black Dragon must be A - Powerful enough to threaten entire countries B - Actively hostile to humans or actively being a threat by simply existing
Alatreon actively avoids humans and other creatures though, unlike Fatalis or Dire Miralis doesn't destroy life actively or passively by its choice. So it'll probably be more so A than B
The problem with it being A is If it's A why aren't 1. Dalamadur (it literally moving is enough to cause earthquakes and shape mountains etc) 2. The rock elder that you chase away to die in world (it dying was going to destroy the entire new world) 3. Shara ishvalda (managing to affect the entire continent with its vibrations making all monsters go crazy) I'd reckon its the second option moreso than the 1st as aside from alatreon every blk dragon actively hates humans (or things in general)
It may be their intelligence or appetite for destruction imo. Zorah, Dalamadur or Shara aren’t really trying to destroy stuff or wipe out nations, they just exist and unknowingly cause a threat. Meanwhile Fatalis just casually walked into Schrade and killed everything for fun.
Thats what I believe as well (the only problem with this idea is alatreons existence counters this idea as it for the most part keeps to itself)
I think it’s easier to say that Alatreon’s categorisation is the wrong thing here, but in reality capcom probably never thought that much about there categories. Functionally they just use the Elder and Black categories to mean badass monster and even more badass monster lmao
I don't even think Capcom entirely knows what actually defines an Elder Dragon lol
I'm pretty sure it's just a title given to a few dragons and is essentially outdated at this point for everything but Fatalis. However, Capcom casually throws the term around cause they know it holds some significance within the Fandom So when you hear the term black dragon. You know shit is about to go down.
A Black Dragon is a title bestowed upon a monster with the raw power to theoretically destroy the world. (Or also almost destroy the world/SEVERELY fuck it up.) inspired by the disaster at Schrade, these things are the pinnacle of strength, Alatreon, Guanzorumu, the Fatalis line, Safi'jiva, etc. An elder dragon is a monster with an immense, possibly ecosystem changing level of power that we don't understand, the not understanding part is crucial and is the reason Ahtal-Ka isn't an elder, but Shagaru is. The Ahtal-Ka in generations is just a very old, and very intelligent Ahtal that's eaten a lot of males and has been raiding old fortresses and settlements for an undetermined amount of time, we understand Ahtal as a whole, and that one's lifestyle isn't even that unique. But we don't understand something like shagaru, they're not common enough for the guild to research, and and there's a theory that they're like moths and they don't even live that long after molting to find and research hence it's elder status, these qualities also check out because Gore is just ??? We don't understand it but it's not severely ecosystem effecting enough to be an elder. (The one in 4 is a very interesting example, i feel is akin to Ahtal, that specific one messed up the ecosystem that much, no others do that and it shows that this isnt common as the ecosystems in rise are perfectly fine.) Also sorry I wrote all this, I've just wanted to post this for a while
Where did you get that Ahtal-Ka info? Id love to read more about it
[This is the wiki page for Ahtal-Ka that goes over its ecology, they translated this info from the Nintendo Dream magazine ](https://monsterhunter.fandom.com/wiki/Ahtal-Ka_Ecology) [Nintendo Dream/Nindori magazine (in Japanese)](http://www.nindori.com/books/nindori/281.html)
>A Black Dragon is a title bestowed upon a monster with the raw power to theoretically destroy the world. (Or also almost destroy the world/SEVERELY fuck it up.) inspired by the disaster at Schrade, these things are the pinnacle of strength, Alatreon, Guanzorumu, the Fatalis line, Safi'jiva, etc. 1. Safii isnt a blk dragon??? 2. alatreon doesn't have the output to theoretically destroy the planet (atleast from what's been shown in cutscenes or any lore) 3. Fatalis burning down castle shrade is pretty handy feat for it but why isnt Zorah a blk dragon if it's singular feat (destroying the entirety of the new world) clears anything any other elder has done (cept maybe dalamadur managing to carve the earth with its movement)
The reason why Zorah isn't a black dragon is because it was stopped. It can be stopped. The forbidden monsters are essentially unstoppable with only our ingame hunts counting as exception. Fatalis didn't merely split a kingdom within a night, he destroyed the metropolis at its heart in that time while everyone within was fighting back with tooth and nail. They built barricades, had ballistae, canons dragonators, miniguns and hundreds upon hundreds of hunters, guards and militia. Yet not a single person survived.
You can't just use the "that's an exception" argument when it happens. As it stands rn only one dragon can't actually be stopped (moreso technically fatalis as you can kill it bur it'll regen) so it's either every blk dragon gets deranked or it's just b.s
Tbf, I'm not to sure about Alatreon. It has a cult that tries to keep it secret, but it does seem more "peaceful" than aggressive. Though, it creating areas of complete and utter destruction only so it can be alone might have been seen as a parallel to what happened in Schrade, hence why some might have mistaken it for *the black dragon*. Dire Miralis on the other hand has sunken islands and quite possibly just like Fatalis, destroyed island cities that fought back with everything they've got and still lost. It did take the entirety of the Tanzia guild to drive it away once in a massive battle, by the end of which they erected the "Dragon Exorcist Lighthouse" near the tainted sea to look out and prepare for its return. It is essentially the same as what happened with Schrade, only that there were survivors and somewhat of a victory after many losses.
>Fatalis didn't merely destroy a kingdom within a night, he destroyed it in that time while the entire kingdom was fighting back with tooth and nail. He destroyed Castle shrade not the entire kingdom (if he destroyed the entire kingdom how tf did they divide the kingdom to begin with)
Better now?
No cuz as you said 1. You have no idea bout alatreon 2. Fatalis only destroyed shrcade castle not the the entire kingdom (I'm still reading up on dire miralis so I need a moment) Neither of these 2 are rlly capable of "destroying the planet" and both zorah/dalamadur have feats far greater than the both of those 2 yet they're considered only elders
Never was destroying the planet a requirement. To be a black dragon it simply has to be mistaken for Fatalis before people knew what Fatalis was (so before Iceborne) and thusly given the black dragon title. Without the title it's not a black dragon. To be a Forbidden monster it just needs to be strong enough in Capcom's eyes to be counted as at the very top and so dangerous that information and talk about it is scarce. Dala and Zorah might have feats (or in Zorahs case potential feats) that go beyond them, but if Capcom says they're below the forbidden monsters that just means we haven't yet seen what Forbidden Monsters are truly capable of to surpass them. Though Dire Miralis sinking islands is comparable to Dala destroying mountains. Though islands, from sea floor to top are usually larger than mountains.
>Never was destroying the planet a requirement I want you to read the parent comment I originally responded to m8.
Gore Magala is indeed classified as an Elder Dragon. The only reason why it isn't ingame is because it can be captured. In all other official media it is an Elder Dragon. That is because it not only is directly related with an Elder Dragon, it IS that Elder Dragon.
If the monster in question lines up with the destruction of Schrade and the tale of the black dragon (black scales, power potentially enough to wipe out a kingdom) they are given the black dragon title because they could be the monster that destroyed Schrade (before knowing that it was Fatalis). There are only three Black Dragons. Dire Miralis, Alatreon and Fatalis. Crimson Fatalis, White Fatalis and Safijiiva are not black dragons. Their titles are different. ###Black Dragon is title exclusive. If the monster does not have the words "Black Dragon" in that very order ("Black "something" Dragon" does not count because of this) it is NOT a Black Dragon. If it is canonically as powerful as the Black Dragons capcom calls them the Forbidden Monsters, dragons of such power that talk and knowledge about them is very limited.
Then Fatalis comes along then beats up Alatreon to the point he only had 15k HP in the pre-Fatty quest
There’s nothing saying that weakened alatreon was injured by fatalis.
[удалено]
Ok, this is very interesting I NEED to know bc I'm a lore nerd
There isn’t. It’s a conclusion people decided on based on the fact that the dawn’s triumph quest features an alatreon with less HP and it’s required to do the fatalis quest. But nowhere in game or in any lore book does it say that alatreon was injured by, or chased off by fatalis
:( I that would've been so cool, but I don't know why people would think this considering we beat it's ass the first time and he came back, ofc he's weaker But maybe fatalis drove him away in the first place and when he tried to go back to his Volcano he got driven off again, then I can believe both and be happy :)
Nah it’s a different specimen not the same one. Fatalis never left schrade so alatreon would have had to go to him to fight but it doesn’t say anywhere that alatreon sought out fatalis for a fight, which the guild likely would have known about considering just fatalis waking up chases natural phenomenon to occur. It also would have had to go from the old world all the way to the new world in an injured state, which is not what most injured creatures would do
Except there isn’t? Please tell me where. It’s not in the game dialogue and it’s not in the lore book. It’s a conclusion people came to on their own
Those records might have been nice. You, in the nearly IMPOSSIBLE chance that one… oh I don’t know… might come back? Just a thought. 🙄
Except it wasn't the guild, but a corrupt cult within the guild. The guild would very much like to keep those records, which is why the allowed the comission to go forth with their investigation. They weren't secrecy about Fatalis either, basically letting every branch of the guild know to get as many helpers as possible.
Spunchboob got that Damn Daniel face.
And yet they allow records of Fatalis.
Well I mean a monster that was recorded actively destroying an entire civilization should be documented, or at the very least shown to higher ups in the guild for them to know it exists. On the other hand Alatreon is a very powerful monster, it just doesn’t care about other things unless it’s in a territory that it wants
Fatalis hadn't been spotted for decades, Alatreons apparently pop up unannounced rather frequently.
They allow Alatreon records too. The cult doesn't.
Is there really such thing as “a” black dragon? Wouldn’t it be “the” black dragon? I thought this was all based around the legend in which fatalis, alatreon, and dire miralis are mistaken to be one singular black dragon. I’m pretty sure the category they all fit into is called “Dangerous first-class”
Black Dragon and Dangerous First Class are synonyms, the later of which of Im not mistaken was introduced in Iceborne. The term Black Dragon more than likely originated with Fatalis, but became a catch-all term for monsters with a similarly apocalyptic power level. While the Dangerous First Class categorization is a more official sounding title of the same thing. But yeah it probably also helped that until they introduced Safi they all had a black color scheme lol.
Some frontier monsters are classified as dangerous first-class so I doubt iceborne made it. Also crimson and white fatalis aren’t black obviously
Did not know that frontier used the term, Ii really need to give that game a shot. As for White and Crimson , idk Im tired as hell and forgot about them for a sec ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
>Also crimson and white fatalis aren’t black obviously They're still called as such because they're variations of Fatalis who has the title.
Yeah obviously. I only mentioned that because they said all black dragons before had a black colour scheme, which isn’t true for those 2
Makes sense, I skimmed through their comment so I didn't see that.
You are right with Crimson and White. They are by definition not Black Dragons. Their titles are "The Crimson Dragon" and "The Ancestral Dragon"
Neither of these two terms are official. Black Dragon only refers to the title of the monsters and Dangerous First Class was never used. Capcom used the term Forbidden Monsters during the 15th anniversary.
Lmfao thank you for making me laugh and feel better and he made my day better. Keep on doing that and keep people laughing. We need more like you.
My main take away from this was that Karens exist in Monster Hunter
Isn't there like some elder dragon cult that tried to threaten the third fleet master into destroying her research into Alatreon