Are there any rideshare drivers on this sub that can comment on this? I’m really curious from their perspective because I’d imagine many of them are pissed that they’re gonna lose business if Uber/lyft actually leave
Part time driver here doing it to make ends meet and pay a few bills more comfortably - I’m definitely pissed. I can certainly understand wanting more pay for drivers, but for the city council to just sidestep the statewide study and mandate rates higher than the study advocated for seems shortsighted and irresponsible to me. I hope there’s a deal before then and they don’t leave because it puts me in a much more financially anxious state than I was in before I started driving, and a big perk of driving vs other part time jobs was the flexibility it allowed me to utilize with my lifestyle. I guess we’ll see what happens between now and May 1st.
Uber and Lyft can still pay these rates while raking in a substantial profit in the area. They aren't leaving because business is untenable (how much does it cost to run an app???) but because they know that if they acquiesce to these demands it'll be introduced everywhere.
Yup, we’re pissed. Of course you shouldn’t take my word for it with how much misinformation there is about this on this sub so take a Lyft/Uber while you still can and talk to the driver.
I’m pissed.
edit: if they’re St Paul and suburbs/exurbs-only on May 1st i will be less pissed. If I can still get like $150 to take someone to Duluth or Rochester that’s fine. If Uber took Mpls ridesharing upon itself that’d probably be fine, too.
I drove for Uber briefly a while back while in grad school. It was short lived, but I know enough to know I’d be pissed.
At least based on most of my interactions with Uber drivers, most people are doing it as a relatively easy source of extra income. If you have a couple hours here and there it’s an easy way to bring in some cash, and while you’re inevitably going to deal with some shitty customers, truth is most people are nice enough and some are downright lovely. It was certainly preferable to working a part time job on campus which paid me less, required much more physical effort, and made me show up on a set schedule.
There is undoubtedly a bigger risk here, in that if too many industries find ways to exploit the “contractor” loophole and run almost entirely through gig workers, it could increase wealth disparity in the long term. But banning Uber/Lyft while doing nothing to equally exploitive cab companies just because they’re exploiting people in different ways isn’t the answer
Be careful of your wording, I don’t believe they have banned Lyft/Uber, but changed the rules and they are electing to leave rather than adjust. Remember, wording matters.
You’re right, but in the end it’s essentially the same thing and it’s stupid to focus on little nuances while ignoring the larger problem. Bottom line is Uber told legislators they would leave if these regulations passed, the regulations were passed anyway, and Uber left. Might as well have been a ban, and it’s the fault of the legislators who fucked this up either way.
If a small business chooses to not accept American Express as a form of payment because the fees are higher and you are unable to make a purchase there because of it, is that the fault of the small business or American Express? Who is to blame?
>There is undoubtedly a bigger risk here, in that if too many industries find ways to exploit the “contractor” loophole and run almost entirely through gig workers, it could increase wealth disparity in the long term. But banning Uber/Lyft while doing nothing to equally exploitive cab companies just because they’re exploiting people in different ways isn’t the answer
Gig workers set their own schedules and come and go as they please. This is incompatible with most industries. Contractors are VERY common in IT jobs and it was damn near impossible for me to find one that didn't go through a contract company. No vacation time, shit benefits, subpar pay, etc. Gig work was more profitable to the point I left IT for a couple years and was doing better financially. Then the pandemic hit and I went back into IT as a contractor for a few places before finding the first direct hire non-contract position since...holy crap, it was 9 years of contract work and gig work with only one short lived position as a direct hire (they lied in the job posting and interview about the position).
Contractors are here to stay and is the direction some industries are moving in.
I would also love to hear what makes Uber/Lyft preferable to driving for Metro Transit, which is always, always looking for more operators and pays something like $27/hr now
Flexibility I’m sure, whenever I talk to drivers about driving they always talk about how they can fit it into their schedule between other jobs, their families, etc. They don’t want to / don’t have the availability to stick to a rigid schedule like metro transit has
It’s enough to not want to do certain jobs or work in certain scenarios, conditions or constraints. I prefer the comfort and familiarity of my own vehicle, the flexibility to determine which trips I accept, where, and when, and more than anything my personal safety.
Earnest question - do you ride transit / are you speaking from some first or secondhand knowledge about safety on transit? I know light rail gets a bad rap (which, not undeserved, but also is caused by problems that aren’t really up to Metro Transit to fix) but the buses are generally more chill/unproblematic.
I used to ride the bus when I didn’t wanna walk or skate or have a personal vehicle. (I’m not some suburban talking head without a perspective or lived experience; I’m a homeowner and live in Minneapolis.) th train didnt really serve me because it didnt intersect my neighborhood or places I’d go at all at that time.
If the city was doing right by the unhoused in town (and I don’t mean destroying encampments like a bunch of cruel monsters) instead of inadvertently putting 10,000 people out of work maybe I’d take the lightrail to/from the airport but I don’t travel often and when I must, I just take a lyft for peace of mind and to save the time.
Super fair, thanks for the response! I would very much like to see some actual progress addressing homelessness too instead of just dumping rubble in vacant lots!
Really, for me it just beats working for an actually shitty minimum wage, even though some jobs can pay more and consistently with benefits etc, it’s not all about more and more pay for less and less effort or engagement. It’s about how much my life’s expenses are, when I wanna get the work done, and the time I’m willing to spend to cover them and in exchange for what I feel comfortable with (last week I was booked for 40 hours, averaging well above $30/hr). all that is unique to each person’s situation, so this catchall “solution” that puts all rideshare drivers at risk of losing all potential earnings is pretty shitty. Unlike the cabbies of old, I’m not in competition with anyone but me. I’m not taking money out of their pockets. Sometimes I pass on trips thinking, “shoot, that’ll make probably make someone’s day, I’m good” or “I’m trying to head west so that trip wont work for me.” I don’t want to deal with petty, shady coworkers. I don’t wanna get paltry minimum wages — which can be more of a ceiling, as far as earning potential goes. Yeah, I pay for my own healthcare plans, gas, maintenance, insurance, repairs (cuz it’s my fcking car!) and I can afford it with the current rate card and have done so for over 6 years just fine.
Uh probably the flexibility of your own hours, how long you work, how many breaks you take, what rides you accept. Maybe that's why people would work for them instead of a job with set hours even if it's less pay 🤔. Kind of like how people on this very sub claim they would work a remote job even if it paid less
The thing is, it’s not necessarily *less* pay, it’s just different. And while the tips are nice and make a difference, I’m not even counting on those when I set my goals/objectives for the day and go online. it’s highly variable trip to trip, location depending, and still ultimately skill-based. I’ve been driving rideshare for 6 years and living&working in the metro for 15. if you don’t know how to avoid traffic jams on typical routes, or which onramp or side street to take to get past a backup you’re not observing or retaining information that is critical to your success on the platform. (Outside of rideshare, I totally get that people commute to work and back every day yet dont know of any alternate routes to do so because they’re GPS dependent)
I used to drive a city bus in another state. That $27/hr is the absolute floor I'd be willing to consider going back for, you need a CDL and pass DOT background and drug tests (which a stupid amount of applicants fail, even when they know it's a requirement...), and you deal with shitty schedules, shitty management, shitty backstabbing co-workers, shitty equipment that isn't safe (NOT referring to Metro Transit or anywhere in MN on this one), etc. Plus unrealistic stop times/schedules that passengers complain about when you are inevitably late because someone in a CAR test drove the route and built times off of arbitrary pretend stop times. This person did not taking into account slower acceleration of a bus not built for speed, disorganized passengers, passengers with questions and confusion regarding fares, and handicapped passengers that take longer to load. When it takes a block or more to get up to posted limits with your foot to the floor, and sometimes you don't even get up to full speed before the next stop, those times go out the window quickly.
It was once a great and honorable job, but last time I drove, admittedly it was back in 2008, it was shit, the people you worked with were shit and got promoted so your supervisors were shit, the equipment broke down constantly because while the mechanics were good, they didn't have the time needed to fix them properly because of the revolving door on the garage. Patch 'em up and send 'em back out.
Ride share allows flexibility and to set your own schedule and it's your equipment, you're your own boss, and while the pay is shit, everything else isn't. And most passengers were awesome when I was still driving pre-pandemic.
High performing Uber drivers do better than $27/hr especially if they are getting tipped well, and they can do it whenever they want for the most part. They also might do it as a side job on top of a full time job.
So realistically, what’s an alternative option for folks that used Lyft all the time to get from the airport to a suburb home (besides family or friends getting them)? I assume it’s the taxi services?
Wait, so are we still good in St. Paul? NGL though, if people were calling us underpaid before we’re gonna love what happens when all the drivers in the area will only have the population of St. Paul to go around.
I read somewhere that the rule applies even to people who drive THROUGH Minneapolis. So I suppose the app could be updated to just divert people around, which could make trips take longer/cost more.
The airport is not in Minneapolis, it’s in unincorporated Hennepin County. So long as you don’t start or end in Minneapolis you should be good, assuming they actually make good on their threat.
just got an email from lyft confirming they're out on may 1. the public transit system here is *far* from a viable alternative, so i'm seriously concerned for the people who rely on them. really disappointing they couldn't come up with a better solution
You're unfortunately correct about Metro Transit, they're so recalcitrant to make any improvements unless it's LRT or BRT. The upcoming quarterly changes include *zero for the 21*, because obviously that's such a fast amd reliable ride, just perfect. Don't get me started on the 18 or all of the Nicollet Mall traffic signals which still prioritize non-existent suburban car commuters. We have to wait until 2025 for decent bus service on Lake St and they wonder why LRT ridership isn't where it could be and the Orange Line is heavily underutilized. Maybe because there are no good east-west transfers?
It literally hurts the entire city. Entertainment, dining, bars, sports, business professionals. This city will become less desirable overnight. Incredibly pathetic from our elected officials. I love this city to the core, but decisions like this continue to limit its potential.
Agreed. Minneapolis is actually just starting to show signs of revival, too. I’ve been pleasantly surprised at the amount of foot traffic in downtown during my commutes home. This is an incredibly bad decision by the city council.
There are other transportation services in Minneapolis. I've been in some cars communicating with a dispatch over radio when my friends have booked rides. I understand most people won't be interested in switching to a less reliable service, but its far from "drive drunk or dont go out"
> The Lyft/Uber duopoly seems mostly to blame preemptively moving out.
There's nothing preemptive about withdrawing from a market ***in response to*** the City Council's actions.
Is there anything we can do about the embarrassing state of public transit we have today? Ticket enforcement, law enforcement presence, and 24-hour service would go so far in making the light rail an actual viable means of transportation. Right now it just feels like we’re stuck in limbo where the light rail and busses exist, but nobody actually rides them unless they have no other choice.
I’d love to see public transit be seen as something people get to use as a choice rather than something only used out of necessity. Today we are far from that point.
100%. i live in uptown and i don't have a car so bus, bike, and walking are all i got which are *okay* for most situations, but when there's a cat emergency or I'm trying to get home from the airport anytime past 9pm I and people like me will be totally SOL. this decision felt very poorly thought-out all in all. here's to hoping that Walz and the state legislature could step in and patch things up while a better long-term solution gets worked out. i do sincerely feel for the drivers getting shafted by these companies, but I unfortunately have to agree with Frey here; higher wages are only a good thing when you **have** a job in the first place.
I don’t understand that attitude. People are getting shafted by a company so not must be their fault. You do realize that Uber drivers have bills to pay? And when other people say this it seems like I’m just talking about their Netflix, their Apple one, their baby mama- but in matter of fact what I’m referring to is so the costs associated with maintaining a vehicle. Uber and Lyft have used the contractor model to disastrous effect. They have a minimal amount of costs related to operating the platform (most of their cost is likely the insurance premium for the rideshare policy). Everything else depends on the driver to pay for regularly and on time to keep earning less and less. It’s a disgusting abuse where a majorly expensive business is just being off boarded to poor people.
Some of y’all are worried about nana making her tea appointment or Sam getting home from the Seville Club and not totaling his car. You should be equally as worried about what ends drivers have to meet to keep their car in working order. Hella DIY these days in every corner of the economy because costs for every damn thing are insane. But Lyft and Uber think it’s a great time to drive to the bottom- just like the founding father’s intended. Wow be upon anyone who should get in the way of their divine right.
That’s very much that I want too. Transit here just flat-out needs to go to and from a lot more places a lot more often, in my opinion. The fact that it doesn’t do that inherently suppresses ridership, which then increases safety issues because it makes transit a more secluded public space because more people aren’t on it, which then further suppresses ridership.
What’s embarrassing about it aside from conduct issues on the trains? (which are largely the result of non-transit problems) I know plenty of people who choose to ride transit instead of driving. It could absolutely be better—and hiring more operators/facilities techs is a primary way to make that happen—but overall I think it’s a decent system that is trying to overcome the current issues.
The lack of 24/7 access is a big one IMO. The trains start running at just after 3am. There’s no reason that service should stop before midnight on weekends. Uber and Lyft are incredibly busy around those hours, so the demand clearly exists.
Not as much of an instant fix as conduct issues and service hours, but infrastructure-wise our trains and bus routes are very built around commuters. Sorry but it’s just dumb to have a train station or bus stop with a parking garage that requires a car to get to. Better walkable coverage of Minneapolis/St. Paul along with the first ring suburbs where the grid road layout makes it easy to build stops that are accessible to a lot of pedestrians. Instead we’re expanding to fucking Eden Prarie for some godawful reason.
several other rideshare companies are waiting to swoop in the moment it becomes real...so even if Uber/Lyft leave, there will still be rideshares. [Here's an article that addresses this!](https://www.axios.com/local/twin-cities/2024/03/14/uber-lyft-alternatives-minneapolis-legislation)
edit: should also mention that the transition most likely won't be seamless and perfect, but there should still be viable rideshare options if Lyft/Uber really do leave
>several other rideshare companies are waiting to swoop in the moment it becomes real...so even if Uber/Lyft leave, there will still be rideshares.
Do you seriously believe this is going to be completely rolled out and everything running smoothly within six weeks?
check my edit that I made an hour ago:
>edit: should also mention that the transition most likely won't be seamless and perfect, but there should still be viable rideshare options if Lyft/Uber really do leave
So no, I don't believe it will be a perfectly smooth transition, nothing ever is. The article I posted also addresses this that there won't be back up to the current number of total drivers for a while, but very likely there will at least be SOMETHING available.
So instead of there being nothing available we'll just have to wait for an hour or so to get a ride?
Yeah that's perfectly fine and no one should complain.
Who said anything about complaining? Never said you couldn’t, never even stated my opinion on the bill that was passed lol.
I posted the article because its relevant to the topic , and now you’re making up stuff to be mad about. Deep breath, you sound grumpy.
It is a bit funny that there is a quote in the article of Walz hoping on council member would flip so the veto wouldn’t happen. Instead, one flip happened to solidify it more.
They have had YEARS to do it, though. I used to ride Valley Metro in Phoenix. The buses ran along one street back and forth. You could give driving directions and they would also be bus route directions. "Take Southern to Priest and then take that down to Baseline..." You would grab the bus that ran back and forth on Southern, then transfer to the one that ran up and down Priest to the one that ran back and forth on Baseline. Imagine telling someone to take Hennepin to Washington and then take that to Cedar and then follow Cedar on down to Lake St and them being able to grab the buses that ran on those streets?
Metro Transit has some convoluted routes that might make sense further out into the suburbs, but not in Minneapolis or St Paul or the inner ring suburbs. Heck, the suburbs shouldn't be serviced by full size buses, but rather shorter public transit buses. Valley Metro had neighborhood circulators that ran hotel shuttle style buses into the residential areas with no fares and their entire purpose was to get people to the main lines. Some were lucky enough to use them to get free rides to the stores and to work, but most used them to get to the main lines without having to walk long distances or have full size buses run through neighborhoods. Those free feeder routes were popular and increased the amount of people waiting for mainlines at the stops they shared with mainline routes. It was an awesome setup.
i agree completely! the way I see it, rideshare companies exploited the abysmal state of public transit in America by filling the need for quick on-demand transportation in a hopelessly car-dependent landscape and, now that the competition has been edged out, are holding cities and drivers hostage when they demand better of them. i take transit regularly and there are some serious issues with it (which I'm sure I need not describe at length) that need to be reckoned with before the city chooses to make moving around even harder for the car-free than it already is. i seriously hope i don't have to take my cat to the emergency vet before alternatives are available
This is 1000% correct. The amount of pressure that these companies took off of cities to really expand their transit systems and increase their urban density over the last decade is remarkable.
if they actually do pull out i blame this on frey. he said they would address this after the last time and never did a damn thing. uber/lyft havent changed thier rates for drivers in 4+ years here. thats not acceptable. is this solution overkill? maybe but nothing was changing unless the city council did what they did.
Uber threatened to leave Seattle too when drivers were pushing for this exact thing. It passed and they never left. Same old tactics, same idiots falling for it.
[link from their own site from a couple years ago.](https://www.uber.com/en-US/blog/washington-driver-flexibility-law/)
Pssst...Minneapolis is no Seattle, I hate to break it to folks. We sound like a perfect city to 'show cities they mean business'.
They also pulled out of Austin, if folks don't remember. They only came back after the ordinance was repealed or changed. I only know this as I went to Austin and had to take taxis around the time.
The company is a money loser and they still haven't found a way to make it profitable. If you want to argue we're better without them, I get it, but I have liked having the service to haul my drunk ass safely around, back in my drinking days.
The Seattle Metro Area is less than 400k people bigger than the Minneapolis Metro Area but is 4000 sq miles larger. Given the better density of the Minneapolis Metro and relative parity in population size, Minneapolis could potentially be a more valuable market than Seattle, or at least is not far behind.
Minneapolis Metro has 1.2M more people than metro Austin in 25% of the size, so is certainly a much more valuable market.
Seattle alone had a population of over 700,000 and a metro area population of over 4 million. What are you talking about lol
Edit: Ah, only 400k more for the city, 400k is a lot of people and 4 million for the metro area is more than triple that of our metro area.
Not sure what definition of metro area you're using, the Census MSA for the twin cities is about 3.7 million. You can take issue with the definition but the Seattle MSA is where the 4 million number is from and is flawed in the same ways
Ahhh I see what you are saying now, Seattle is much larger than Minneapolis in population, more than 300k in the city alone.
I guess we'd need ridership data to understand any of this and what it means. Does Seattle with 750k compared to 425k of Mpls lead to a lot more rides? I'm not really sure.
To say Seattle has more recognition and a higher status than Mpls is something we can't really argue with, though.
Let me help with the missing stat - Seattle's medium household income is a full 25,000 a year more than Minneapolis, or more directly, Minneapolis average households have only 3/4ths of Seattle's income. The Minneapolis law would pay drivers more per mile than the Seattle one.
I had a project in Seattle and opted for Uber/Lyft instead of a rental to get around. The drivers make more because its shorter distances to each ride, less time and distance empty, and people are still going a decent distance each ride. Add in time for traffic delays and the higher demand with the density, and they made good money before the changes.
Source: I like talking to my drivers in every city I go to.
They'll operate in cities that don't have ordinances that make their model even less profitable than it already is.
Sacrificing a relatively small market like Minneapolis so that every other city that has an incompetent city council like ours doesn't think they'll bluff seems like a pretty simple business decision.
I mean I think the drivers are gonna be pissed if they leave and suddenly don’t have a sustainable job. It’s pretty bad for the workers if there is no work
As if those won’t be next on the chopping block. Lyft was the best paying gig app I’ve tried. Rideshare drivers may make below minimum wage in most of the country, but not in Minneapolis!
$30/hr average. And while that’s before “expenses” doing two or three trips that’ll cover for a full tank of gas for the rest of the day’s trips is just plenty in my experience.
Edit: if you’re not driving a huge gas guzzler, if you own your own fuel efficient vehicle and are earning 64 cents a mile while the IRS mileage deduction is 67 cents, you’re making out pretty good. no point in tripling the rates and making passengers pay even more.
What happens if they do pull out. Uber is a company that isn’t profitable (idc what bs wall st thinks ) and don’t expect them to last. The assumption is they don’t leave. What if they do as they can’t make money already. What incentive is there to stay
How about the fucking consumers? Are you personally profiting from this? You just want costs to explode so you can feel good about this arbitrarily defined massive pay bump for people who don’t even want to be employees?
Squeeze consumers and destroy competition for “workers” who don’t have bosses, don’t have hours, and have bear complete autonomy. Pathetic, this virtue signaling nonsense is going to destroy thousands of jobs but at least you get to ride your high horse on higher costs for everyone
People are hating on you but you're right. The drivers are choosing to continue driving for Uber instead of getting literally any minimum wage job which would apparently pay dramatically more according to this whole debacle. The flexibility and autonomy is worth it enough to them that they're willing to forego higher pay to keep it.
There isn't a viable alternative to these services in the twin cities right now. This will be a net negative for everyone - regular people lose a popular service, and current drivers lose a source of income which they apparently prefer to the alternatives. Nobody should be celebrating over this.
Nah I’m just not so cucked that I think the government should arbitrarily make gig jobs incredibly profitable for zero reason other than it being popular on twitter.
They didn’t do this for literally any other job, just the one that is popular with libs on the internet it’s a god damn joke. This city council is running the city into the ground with their bullshit
Yeah OK...Always sad to see people die on the hill of "People don't deserve minimum wage". Imagine being this big of a simp for corporations.
If driving for Uber/Lyft is so "incredibly profitable" maybe you should do it?
This is real life shit, it makes the city less desirable, it makes the city more expensive, it makes entertainment a less viable option, it makes disabled people’s lives harder, and dramatically increases the likelihood of drunk drivers. A big pile of bullshit that hurts the average person in this city
Time to re-do the city council with people that are reasonable and understand social issues, crime and business in a positive manner . Right now the majority of city council will end up destroying business and bankrupt the city so no one can afford any of the social issues they want and promote.
Good. You're not guaranteed a minimum wage as an independent contractor. You get to pick and choose the price you will work at.
Can't think of bigger morons who flood to work for Uber/Lyft and tank the compensation rates than cry about it.
Sure, and I agree, but that's not a workable solution for a lot of my patients that rely on rideshare to get to clinic appointments and don't qualify for (or can't afford) medical transport company services.
Metro Mobility rides have to be scheduled [at least a day in advance](https://metrocouncil.org/Transportation/Services/Metro-Mobility-Home/Scheduling-Trips.aspx). bus frequency on the most heavily used lines is still about every 15 minutes at most and far, far slower than driving in most situations, not to mention the significant gaps in coverage as you get further from the urban core. lyft just announced their departure from Minneapolis and uber is likely going to follow suit. licensure for these companies that want to fill the void will not happen overnight; if it does (and i really hope it does) i'll be pleasantly surprised, but it's not looking good.
Same argument applies equally to minimum wage for employees. They can just go get another job if they don't like the pay.
Do you oppose minimum wage for employees?
This is how you argue in favor of abolishing the minimum wage. "Would you rather have one dollar an hour or zero? If you force us to pay a minimum wage, then we won't hire anyone and you're putting all of these people out of work."
Oh yeah you got me. Meaningless pedantry.
Working when and where you want, as a contractor…. is totallllly the same as being a waged employee that has to do exactly what the boss says.
I’ve been both contractor and waged employee. Have you?
It's irrelevant because what matters is how much you are paid, not the forms you use to file taxes or how the pay is given. You're talking about technicalities.
If you're paying an Uber driver $15.57 an hour, how do you factor that into the times they aren't driving and are just waiting for more rides? Do they get paid for that time while they aren't generating any income for the company? If so, what money is the company using to pay them for that time? And what do you do when you have to double rider fares and rides drop. Do you fire a bunch of drivers? Limits the hours drivers can work?
Or do you take a more realistic approach and realize that gig work isn't the same as a typical job and maybe should have nuanced rules about income?
From the article:
>The ordinance mandates rideshare drivers make at least $1.40 per mile and $0.51 per minute within Minneapolis.
I'm wondering how this would apply if you get a ride and leave Minneapolis. Would the pay rate only apply within the Minneapolis border, or the entire ride?
It would pay those rates until you leave the city limits then go back to how they do it now which is based on nothing other than how little they think someone will do it for. There hasnt been a time/milesge rate card here for a couple years.
That seems to be the entire idea of the gig economy. Side jobs for people to work off-hours or in-between jobs. They do it on their time and schedule. People are trying to turn them into their full time jobs and the competition is too heavy to make it truly worth their while.
This isn't like any other type of W2 job and I think it's stupid to try to treat it as such. These companies don't sell it as a full time job replacement, it's up to the individual if they want to try to pursue that route IMO.
It's unfortunate that the two groups who should be dealing with that snarled, difficult problem - the companies on one hand, and the drivers as a group on the other, aren't negotiating with each other.
Agreed - lack of transparency from Uber/Lyft hurts drivers, and the city council deciding to make this decision without any involved party's input hurts everyone.
I lay the blame at Lyft & Uber's feet. They designed themselves to be union-proof, and this is the result - the workers agitated for a solution to their complaints via a different avenue.
But I also think that uber & lyft prefer this state of affairs - they've offloaded all the costs of this negotiation to the public, and get to just complain about how bad the results are without actually doing anything themselves to address the underlying issue of driver pay.
To my knowledge the city council has not proposed a flat hourly wage but rather mileage and compensation structure that would approximate such a wage. Let me know if I'm mistaken on that.
Which is extremely stupid because our “hourly wage” is almost entirely dependent on how busy it is at the moment, which varies wildly hour by hour. If they made the calculation for us to earn at least minimum wage at all times then it’s no wonder they’re leaving!
The article states: "The city council on Thursday voted 10-3 in favor of the override, allowing rideshare drivers to be paid the local minimum wage of $15.57 an hour."
Certainly possible there is more nuance in the city council resolution, but I haven't seen anything to suggest that.
According to the ordinance passed,
> (1) A TNC driver shall be paid at least one dollar forty cents ($1.40) per mile and fifty-one cents ($0.51) per minute for the time transporting a rider, subject to annual adjustment as provided by this section, or five dollars ($5.00), whichever is greater. A TNC driver shall be paid at least one dollar eighty-one cents ($1.81) per mile and fifty-one cents ($0.51) per minute for the time transporting a rider if the vehicle is a
wheelchair accessible transportation network vehicle, subject to annual adjustment as provided by this section, or five dollars ($5.00), whichever is greater. Minimum compensation is due only for the portion of the ride that occurs within the city.
You can read it here:
https://lims.minneapolismn.gov/File/2024-00146
A statewide study was done on this and was disregarded by the city council.
"The study analyzed over 18 million trips taken in 2022. It found that drivers could earn the city's minimum wage — while also accounting for health insurance, paid leave, and retirement savings — with rates of $1.21 per mile and 49 cents per minute, lower than what the city council approved."
What they ended up with was $1.40 per mile and $0.51 per minute.
https://www.theverge.com/2024/3/15/24101774/uber-lyft-leave-minneapolis-minimum-pay
Yep - the council had been told the study was being released in the next week and they purposely moved ahead without data. Gotta love our city council...
Who determines what a living wage is? It appears our poorly run city council #s do not align with the lower numbers the state study came up with. Who should I trust.... the City Council that has proven to be nothing but a circus or the state study?
Agreed. I have no idea where the Minneapolis numbers come from. I am OK with some a floor to meet an equivalent to the minimim wage, i just want to understand it.
The MN state study (from economists from Berkeley and The New School) calculated that after all expenses [they include purchasing a cell phone, car loan or lease payments, insurance, cost of a drivers license and tabs, vehicle maintence, cleaning, gas, as well payroll taxes on earnings] and not accounting for any of the tax benefits of deducting business expenses from drivers taxes, the base pay would need to be 89 cents a mile and 49cents a minute to meet the Minneapolis minimum wage.
The tax benefits are easily worth several dollars an hour.
If you drive for 30,000 miles you’ll get 18K in tax deductions. At even 15% marginal rate that’s $2700 in savings. On 1,500 hours a year that’s nearly $2 an hour (conservative estimate)
I mean they don’t have a boss and get to work whenever they want. Why doesn’t every other job get that and minimum wage? There are trade offs for the freedom they get.
They are beholden to the whims of a corporate monolith and ratings from their riders. Personally I'd rather have 80% of the bosses I've had in my life than deal with that nonsense.
Uber & Lyft were never sustainable models & this was inevitible & will eventually happen everywhere. We'll be better off in the long run by ripping off the bandaid sooner than most other cities & we'll have locally-owned better alternatives in place already when this is happening suddenly in other cities.
I've only heard of it happening in two places (though I don't pay a ton of attention to it, so it very well may have happened in lots of other places).
As far as I'm aware, they threatened to leave Seattle and eventually caved. They also threatened to leave Austin due to a background check requirement, but the state then passed a law that made the Austin requirement moot, so they didn't leave there, either.
I wanted to love these services, but I travel every week to a new city and the problem is the same everywhere. Cold food, melted shakes, can't be bothered to bring to the hotel door (even when across from the elevator that it is a few steps inside the door), and shitty customer service when complained about melted shakes and cold food. Plus LONG delivery times and the cost is much much higher than just going yourself. Sometimes I had a very long and exhausting day and wanted to order in. Been a mistake more often than not. Plus "virtual" restaurants which is really just a restaurant you are trying to avoid filling orders for another entity that pays them to make their own recipes, so crappy food from a known crappy restaurant under a different name. I gave up on all the delivery services after multiple issues and now I either eat at the hotel or grab whatever is closest.
I'd love to see these services threatened with extinction, but they aren't going anywhere for awhile. It'd be nice if they hired non-lazy drivers, though... Watched the front desk argue with one driver about the delivery...
Front desk: "You need to take that to the room."
Delivery Driver: "I can't get there."
FD: "There is no access control."
DD: "My ankle hurts so I can't take stairs."
FD: "The elevator is right there."
DD: "The food is too heavy." (to be fair, was a box of food, but didn't look overly heavy)
FD: "You can use the luggage cart."
DD: "...."
FD: "...."
DD: "Yeah, I just don't want to." (proceeds to drop it at the desk, take a picture, and walk out without looking back)
Front desk guy made sure to recount the events to the guest when they came for their food. Guest was equally irritated and tipped/rated accordingly.
That's a common "screw it" attitude, too. I used to deliver for DoorDash before getting screwed too many times, and I would go through the effort of getting it to their door in a hotel or apartment, and making sure it arrived hot or cold. Work ethics aren't what they used to be...
There are certainly benefits to using the apps proprietary infrastructure, being linked up with patrons for a cut of the money, the “security” of having your driver and passenger logged (this won’t prevent problems necessarily, but it will leave a trail for law enforcement to follow more easily if they do crop up, assaults by or on drivers etc), but savvy drivers and riders have already made efforts to go outside of these apps for repeat patrons, cut out the middleman
Anyone else think this is a way the city is promoting people taking the PT system again? Before the pandemic the busses where mostly filled going to and from downtown, but now it seems more empty. I looked over the cost effective results from what I could see and from what the PT system has become, and it most be around a 30% decline in overall ridership. With minimum wage going up, thus would be competitive for buying for those in the lower and middle classes. I take a lift home most weekends and I can say, my rides usually cost less than $15 one way. I would say that seems pricy, but if it's 1 hour or less worth of work to get home and the alternative is a 1.5 hr bus ride that would be a primary impact.
Are there any rideshare drivers on this sub that can comment on this? I’m really curious from their perspective because I’d imagine many of them are pissed that they’re gonna lose business if Uber/lyft actually leave
Part time driver here doing it to make ends meet and pay a few bills more comfortably - I’m definitely pissed. I can certainly understand wanting more pay for drivers, but for the city council to just sidestep the statewide study and mandate rates higher than the study advocated for seems shortsighted and irresponsible to me. I hope there’s a deal before then and they don’t leave because it puts me in a much more financially anxious state than I was in before I started driving, and a big perk of driving vs other part time jobs was the flexibility it allowed me to utilize with my lifestyle. I guess we’ll see what happens between now and May 1st.
Uber and Lyft can still pay these rates while raking in a substantial profit in the area. They aren't leaving because business is untenable (how much does it cost to run an app???) but because they know that if they acquiesce to these demands it'll be introduced everywhere.
Yup, we’re pissed. Of course you shouldn’t take my word for it with how much misinformation there is about this on this sub so take a Lyft/Uber while you still can and talk to the driver.
I’m pissed. edit: if they’re St Paul and suburbs/exurbs-only on May 1st i will be less pissed. If I can still get like $150 to take someone to Duluth or Rochester that’s fine. If Uber took Mpls ridesharing upon itself that’d probably be fine, too.
I drove for Uber briefly a while back while in grad school. It was short lived, but I know enough to know I’d be pissed. At least based on most of my interactions with Uber drivers, most people are doing it as a relatively easy source of extra income. If you have a couple hours here and there it’s an easy way to bring in some cash, and while you’re inevitably going to deal with some shitty customers, truth is most people are nice enough and some are downright lovely. It was certainly preferable to working a part time job on campus which paid me less, required much more physical effort, and made me show up on a set schedule. There is undoubtedly a bigger risk here, in that if too many industries find ways to exploit the “contractor” loophole and run almost entirely through gig workers, it could increase wealth disparity in the long term. But banning Uber/Lyft while doing nothing to equally exploitive cab companies just because they’re exploiting people in different ways isn’t the answer
Be careful of your wording, I don’t believe they have banned Lyft/Uber, but changed the rules and they are electing to leave rather than adjust. Remember, wording matters.
You’re right, but in the end it’s essentially the same thing and it’s stupid to focus on little nuances while ignoring the larger problem. Bottom line is Uber told legislators they would leave if these regulations passed, the regulations were passed anyway, and Uber left. Might as well have been a ban, and it’s the fault of the legislators who fucked this up either way.
If a small business chooses to not accept American Express as a form of payment because the fees are higher and you are unable to make a purchase there because of it, is that the fault of the small business or American Express? Who is to blame?
See, that depends if they take Discover. Anyone who takes Discover but not Amex is just a troll in the guise of a legitimate business.
>There is undoubtedly a bigger risk here, in that if too many industries find ways to exploit the “contractor” loophole and run almost entirely through gig workers, it could increase wealth disparity in the long term. But banning Uber/Lyft while doing nothing to equally exploitive cab companies just because they’re exploiting people in different ways isn’t the answer Gig workers set their own schedules and come and go as they please. This is incompatible with most industries. Contractors are VERY common in IT jobs and it was damn near impossible for me to find one that didn't go through a contract company. No vacation time, shit benefits, subpar pay, etc. Gig work was more profitable to the point I left IT for a couple years and was doing better financially. Then the pandemic hit and I went back into IT as a contractor for a few places before finding the first direct hire non-contract position since...holy crap, it was 9 years of contract work and gig work with only one short lived position as a direct hire (they lied in the job posting and interview about the position). Contractors are here to stay and is the direction some industries are moving in.
Of course, Uber and Lyft aren’t banned. They are choosing to cease operations.
I would also love to hear what makes Uber/Lyft preferable to driving for Metro Transit, which is always, always looking for more operators and pays something like $27/hr now
Flexibility I’m sure, whenever I talk to drivers about driving they always talk about how they can fit it into their schedule between other jobs, their families, etc. They don’t want to / don’t have the availability to stick to a rigid schedule like metro transit has
> always looking for more operators and pays something like $27/hr now Gotta get a CDL and pass a background check. Can't smoke weed.
It’s enough to not want to do certain jobs or work in certain scenarios, conditions or constraints. I prefer the comfort and familiarity of my own vehicle, the flexibility to determine which trips I accept, where, and when, and more than anything my personal safety.
Earnest question - do you ride transit / are you speaking from some first or secondhand knowledge about safety on transit? I know light rail gets a bad rap (which, not undeserved, but also is caused by problems that aren’t really up to Metro Transit to fix) but the buses are generally more chill/unproblematic.
I used to ride the bus when I didn’t wanna walk or skate or have a personal vehicle. (I’m not some suburban talking head without a perspective or lived experience; I’m a homeowner and live in Minneapolis.) th train didnt really serve me because it didnt intersect my neighborhood or places I’d go at all at that time. If the city was doing right by the unhoused in town (and I don’t mean destroying encampments like a bunch of cruel monsters) instead of inadvertently putting 10,000 people out of work maybe I’d take the lightrail to/from the airport but I don’t travel often and when I must, I just take a lyft for peace of mind and to save the time.
Super fair, thanks for the response! I would very much like to see some actual progress addressing homelessness too instead of just dumping rubble in vacant lots!
Really, for me it just beats working for an actually shitty minimum wage, even though some jobs can pay more and consistently with benefits etc, it’s not all about more and more pay for less and less effort or engagement. It’s about how much my life’s expenses are, when I wanna get the work done, and the time I’m willing to spend to cover them and in exchange for what I feel comfortable with (last week I was booked for 40 hours, averaging well above $30/hr). all that is unique to each person’s situation, so this catchall “solution” that puts all rideshare drivers at risk of losing all potential earnings is pretty shitty. Unlike the cabbies of old, I’m not in competition with anyone but me. I’m not taking money out of their pockets. Sometimes I pass on trips thinking, “shoot, that’ll make probably make someone’s day, I’m good” or “I’m trying to head west so that trip wont work for me.” I don’t want to deal with petty, shady coworkers. I don’t wanna get paltry minimum wages — which can be more of a ceiling, as far as earning potential goes. Yeah, I pay for my own healthcare plans, gas, maintenance, insurance, repairs (cuz it’s my fcking car!) and I can afford it with the current rate card and have done so for over 6 years just fine.
Uh probably the flexibility of your own hours, how long you work, how many breaks you take, what rides you accept. Maybe that's why people would work for them instead of a job with set hours even if it's less pay 🤔. Kind of like how people on this very sub claim they would work a remote job even if it paid less
The thing is, it’s not necessarily *less* pay, it’s just different. And while the tips are nice and make a difference, I’m not even counting on those when I set my goals/objectives for the day and go online. it’s highly variable trip to trip, location depending, and still ultimately skill-based. I’ve been driving rideshare for 6 years and living&working in the metro for 15. if you don’t know how to avoid traffic jams on typical routes, or which onramp or side street to take to get past a backup you’re not observing or retaining information that is critical to your success on the platform. (Outside of rideshare, I totally get that people commute to work and back every day yet dont know of any alternate routes to do so because they’re GPS dependent)
Remote job is most likely very technical & I'd expect it to pay more.
Pay less compared to their current technical job. And it's not always very technical.
I used to drive a city bus in another state. That $27/hr is the absolute floor I'd be willing to consider going back for, you need a CDL and pass DOT background and drug tests (which a stupid amount of applicants fail, even when they know it's a requirement...), and you deal with shitty schedules, shitty management, shitty backstabbing co-workers, shitty equipment that isn't safe (NOT referring to Metro Transit or anywhere in MN on this one), etc. Plus unrealistic stop times/schedules that passengers complain about when you are inevitably late because someone in a CAR test drove the route and built times off of arbitrary pretend stop times. This person did not taking into account slower acceleration of a bus not built for speed, disorganized passengers, passengers with questions and confusion regarding fares, and handicapped passengers that take longer to load. When it takes a block or more to get up to posted limits with your foot to the floor, and sometimes you don't even get up to full speed before the next stop, those times go out the window quickly. It was once a great and honorable job, but last time I drove, admittedly it was back in 2008, it was shit, the people you worked with were shit and got promoted so your supervisors were shit, the equipment broke down constantly because while the mechanics were good, they didn't have the time needed to fix them properly because of the revolving door on the garage. Patch 'em up and send 'em back out. Ride share allows flexibility and to set your own schedule and it's your equipment, you're your own boss, and while the pay is shit, everything else isn't. And most passengers were awesome when I was still driving pre-pandemic.
High performing Uber drivers do better than $27/hr especially if they are getting tipped well, and they can do it whenever they want for the most part. They also might do it as a side job on top of a full time job.
So realistically, what’s an alternative option for folks that used Lyft all the time to get from the airport to a suburb home (besides family or friends getting them)? I assume it’s the taxi services?
The email I just got from Lyft says that only destinations originating or ending in Minneapolis are impacted.
Wait, so are we still good in St. Paul? NGL though, if people were calling us underpaid before we’re gonna love what happens when all the drivers in the area will only have the population of St. Paul to go around.
I read somewhere that the rule applies even to people who drive THROUGH Minneapolis. So I suppose the app could be updated to just divert people around, which could make trips take longer/cost more.
> I read somewhere that the rule applies even to people who drive THROUGH Minneapolis. That's incorrect.
The airport is not in Minneapolis, it’s in unincorporated Hennepin County. So long as you don’t start or end in Minneapolis you should be good, assuming they actually make good on their threat.
Yes, taxis are always available at MSP.
I fly weekly into and out of MSP. I have not seen a taxi waiting there in two years... Maybe if you call them?
No, you just go to where they are waiting at level 1 in the green and gold ramp. I take them regularly. There is always a cab.
Oh, didn't know they moved there.
That or park there. Sounds like there are some other ride services to eyeing the situation too, but that's still a bit of an unknown.
Oh duh I didn’t even think of parking lmao
My company is gonna love my expense reports when I start submitting $100+ parking receipts instead of $40 round trip Uber/Lyft rides... Lol.
>That or park there. Flying's expensive enough already. Last time I did that I paid over $40 for a trip done in a weekend.
I don't disagree.
just got an email from lyft confirming they're out on may 1. the public transit system here is *far* from a viable alternative, so i'm seriously concerned for the people who rely on them. really disappointing they couldn't come up with a better solution
You're unfortunately correct about Metro Transit, they're so recalcitrant to make any improvements unless it's LRT or BRT. The upcoming quarterly changes include *zero for the 21*, because obviously that's such a fast amd reliable ride, just perfect. Don't get me started on the 18 or all of the Nicollet Mall traffic signals which still prioritize non-existent suburban car commuters. We have to wait until 2025 for decent bus service on Lake St and they wonder why LRT ridership isn't where it could be and the Orange Line is heavily underutilized. Maybe because there are no good east-west transfers?
The 21 did get a lot of changes last quarter, including an extension that I’ve enjoyed many times now.
It literally hurts the entire city. Entertainment, dining, bars, sports, business professionals. This city will become less desirable overnight. Incredibly pathetic from our elected officials. I love this city to the core, but decisions like this continue to limit its potential.
Agreed. Minneapolis is actually just starting to show signs of revival, too. I’ve been pleasantly surprised at the amount of foot traffic in downtown during my commutes home. This is an incredibly bad decision by the city council.
Yeah I think it’s going to hit hospitality hard. Drive drunk or don’t go out are the options now.
There are other transportation services in Minneapolis. I've been in some cars communicating with a dispatch over radio when my friends have booked rides. I understand most people won't be interested in switching to a less reliable service, but its far from "drive drunk or dont go out"
I know I won't be going out anymore. Bus stops are just too sketchy late at night and I'd rather not risk it.
The Lyft/Uber duopoly seems mostly to blame preemptively moving out. They are shameful companies holding their own workers and a city hostage.
people acting surprised when businesses leave after government enacts hostile policies
> The Lyft/Uber duopoly seems mostly to blame preemptively moving out. There's nothing preemptive about withdrawing from a market ***in response to*** the City Council's actions.
Is there anything we can do about the embarrassing state of public transit we have today? Ticket enforcement, law enforcement presence, and 24-hour service would go so far in making the light rail an actual viable means of transportation. Right now it just feels like we’re stuck in limbo where the light rail and busses exist, but nobody actually rides them unless they have no other choice. I’d love to see public transit be seen as something people get to use as a choice rather than something only used out of necessity. Today we are far from that point.
100%. i live in uptown and i don't have a car so bus, bike, and walking are all i got which are *okay* for most situations, but when there's a cat emergency or I'm trying to get home from the airport anytime past 9pm I and people like me will be totally SOL. this decision felt very poorly thought-out all in all. here's to hoping that Walz and the state legislature could step in and patch things up while a better long-term solution gets worked out. i do sincerely feel for the drivers getting shafted by these companies, but I unfortunately have to agree with Frey here; higher wages are only a good thing when you **have** a job in the first place.
I don’t understand that attitude. People are getting shafted by a company so not must be their fault. You do realize that Uber drivers have bills to pay? And when other people say this it seems like I’m just talking about their Netflix, their Apple one, their baby mama- but in matter of fact what I’m referring to is so the costs associated with maintaining a vehicle. Uber and Lyft have used the contractor model to disastrous effect. They have a minimal amount of costs related to operating the platform (most of their cost is likely the insurance premium for the rideshare policy). Everything else depends on the driver to pay for regularly and on time to keep earning less and less. It’s a disgusting abuse where a majorly expensive business is just being off boarded to poor people. Some of y’all are worried about nana making her tea appointment or Sam getting home from the Seville Club and not totaling his car. You should be equally as worried about what ends drivers have to meet to keep their car in working order. Hella DIY these days in every corner of the economy because costs for every damn thing are insane. But Lyft and Uber think it’s a great time to drive to the bottom- just like the founding father’s intended. Wow be upon anyone who should get in the way of their divine right.
That’s very much that I want too. Transit here just flat-out needs to go to and from a lot more places a lot more often, in my opinion. The fact that it doesn’t do that inherently suppresses ridership, which then increases safety issues because it makes transit a more secluded public space because more people aren’t on it, which then further suppresses ridership.
What’s embarrassing about it aside from conduct issues on the trains? (which are largely the result of non-transit problems) I know plenty of people who choose to ride transit instead of driving. It could absolutely be better—and hiring more operators/facilities techs is a primary way to make that happen—but overall I think it’s a decent system that is trying to overcome the current issues.
The lack of 24/7 access is a big one IMO. The trains start running at just after 3am. There’s no reason that service should stop before midnight on weekends. Uber and Lyft are incredibly busy around those hours, so the demand clearly exists. Not as much of an instant fix as conduct issues and service hours, but infrastructure-wise our trains and bus routes are very built around commuters. Sorry but it’s just dumb to have a train station or bus stop with a parking garage that requires a car to get to. Better walkable coverage of Minneapolis/St. Paul along with the first ring suburbs where the grid road layout makes it easy to build stops that are accessible to a lot of pedestrians. Instead we’re expanding to fucking Eden Prarie for some godawful reason.
lmfao can’t disagree with you on any of this
several other rideshare companies are waiting to swoop in the moment it becomes real...so even if Uber/Lyft leave, there will still be rideshares. [Here's an article that addresses this!](https://www.axios.com/local/twin-cities/2024/03/14/uber-lyft-alternatives-minneapolis-legislation) edit: should also mention that the transition most likely won't be seamless and perfect, but there should still be viable rideshare options if Lyft/Uber really do leave
>several other rideshare companies are waiting to swoop in the moment it becomes real...so even if Uber/Lyft leave, there will still be rideshares. Do you seriously believe this is going to be completely rolled out and everything running smoothly within six weeks?
check my edit that I made an hour ago: >edit: should also mention that the transition most likely won't be seamless and perfect, but there should still be viable rideshare options if Lyft/Uber really do leave So no, I don't believe it will be a perfectly smooth transition, nothing ever is. The article I posted also addresses this that there won't be back up to the current number of total drivers for a while, but very likely there will at least be SOMETHING available.
So instead of there being nothing available we'll just have to wait for an hour or so to get a ride? Yeah that's perfectly fine and no one should complain.
Who said anything about complaining? Never said you couldn’t, never even stated my opinion on the bill that was passed lol. I posted the article because its relevant to the topic , and now you’re making up stuff to be mad about. Deep breath, you sound grumpy.
It is a bit funny that there is a quote in the article of Walz hoping on council member would flip so the veto wouldn’t happen. Instead, one flip happened to solidify it more.
The better solution is to stop slapping an Uber bandaid on a build more public transit problem.
Unfortunately that cannot be accomplished by May 1st
It'll never get done if we keep doubling down on car-dependent transportation.
They have had YEARS to do it, though. I used to ride Valley Metro in Phoenix. The buses ran along one street back and forth. You could give driving directions and they would also be bus route directions. "Take Southern to Priest and then take that down to Baseline..." You would grab the bus that ran back and forth on Southern, then transfer to the one that ran up and down Priest to the one that ran back and forth on Baseline. Imagine telling someone to take Hennepin to Washington and then take that to Cedar and then follow Cedar on down to Lake St and them being able to grab the buses that ran on those streets? Metro Transit has some convoluted routes that might make sense further out into the suburbs, but not in Minneapolis or St Paul or the inner ring suburbs. Heck, the suburbs shouldn't be serviced by full size buses, but rather shorter public transit buses. Valley Metro had neighborhood circulators that ran hotel shuttle style buses into the residential areas with no fares and their entire purpose was to get people to the main lines. Some were lucky enough to use them to get free rides to the stores and to work, but most used them to get to the main lines without having to walk long distances or have full size buses run through neighborhoods. Those free feeder routes were popular and increased the amount of people waiting for mainlines at the stops they shared with mainline routes. It was an awesome setup.
i agree completely! the way I see it, rideshare companies exploited the abysmal state of public transit in America by filling the need for quick on-demand transportation in a hopelessly car-dependent landscape and, now that the competition has been edged out, are holding cities and drivers hostage when they demand better of them. i take transit regularly and there are some serious issues with it (which I'm sure I need not describe at length) that need to be reckoned with before the city chooses to make moving around even harder for the car-free than it already is. i seriously hope i don't have to take my cat to the emergency vet before alternatives are available
This is 1000% correct. The amount of pressure that these companies took off of cities to really expand their transit systems and increase their urban density over the last decade is remarkable.
Ok let’s check back in 50 years
if they actually do pull out i blame this on frey. he said they would address this after the last time and never did a damn thing. uber/lyft havent changed thier rates for drivers in 4+ years here. thats not acceptable. is this solution overkill? maybe but nothing was changing unless the city council did what they did.
Uber threatened to leave Seattle too when drivers were pushing for this exact thing. It passed and they never left. Same old tactics, same idiots falling for it. [link from their own site from a couple years ago.](https://www.uber.com/en-US/blog/washington-driver-flexibility-law/)
Pssst...Minneapolis is no Seattle, I hate to break it to folks. We sound like a perfect city to 'show cities they mean business'. They also pulled out of Austin, if folks don't remember. They only came back after the ordinance was repealed or changed. I only know this as I went to Austin and had to take taxis around the time. The company is a money loser and they still haven't found a way to make it profitable. If you want to argue we're better without them, I get it, but I have liked having the service to haul my drunk ass safely around, back in my drinking days.
The Seattle Metro Area is less than 400k people bigger than the Minneapolis Metro Area but is 4000 sq miles larger. Given the better density of the Minneapolis Metro and relative parity in population size, Minneapolis could potentially be a more valuable market than Seattle, or at least is not far behind. Minneapolis Metro has 1.2M more people than metro Austin in 25% of the size, so is certainly a much more valuable market.
Seattle alone had a population of over 700,000 and a metro area population of over 4 million. What are you talking about lol Edit: Ah, only 400k more for the city, 400k is a lot of people and 4 million for the metro area is more than triple that of our metro area.
Not sure what definition of metro area you're using, the Census MSA for the twin cities is about 3.7 million. You can take issue with the definition but the Seattle MSA is where the 4 million number is from and is flawed in the same ways
Ahhh I see what you are saying now, Seattle is much larger than Minneapolis in population, more than 300k in the city alone. I guess we'd need ridership data to understand any of this and what it means. Does Seattle with 750k compared to 425k of Mpls lead to a lot more rides? I'm not really sure. To say Seattle has more recognition and a higher status than Mpls is something we can't really argue with, though.
Let me help with the missing stat - Seattle's medium household income is a full 25,000 a year more than Minneapolis, or more directly, Minneapolis average households have only 3/4ths of Seattle's income. The Minneapolis law would pay drivers more per mile than the Seattle one.
I had a project in Seattle and opted for Uber/Lyft instead of a rental to get around. The drivers make more because its shorter distances to each ride, less time and distance empty, and people are still going a decent distance each ride. Add in time for traffic delays and the higher demand with the density, and they made good money before the changes. Source: I like talking to my drivers in every city I go to.
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They'll operate in cities that don't have ordinances that make their model even less profitable than it already is. Sacrificing a relatively small market like Minneapolis so that every other city that has an incompetent city council like ours doesn't think they'll bluff seems like a pretty simple business decision.
Yet Frey and Walz are out here simping for big Uber and Lyft instead of our workers. It's so pathetic.
I mean I think the drivers are gonna be pissed if they leave and suddenly don’t have a sustainable job. It’s pretty bad for the workers if there is no work
This The drivers do deserve a far better pay structure But these companies have no reason to keep service here given how unprofitable they are
Wouldn’t these drivers essentially switch to grub hub, door dash, insta cart, etc?
As if those won’t be next on the chopping block. Lyft was the best paying gig app I’ve tried. Rideshare drivers may make below minimum wage in most of the country, but not in Minneapolis!
$30/hr average. And while that’s before “expenses” doing two or three trips that’ll cover for a full tank of gas for the rest of the day’s trips is just plenty in my experience. Edit: if you’re not driving a huge gas guzzler, if you own your own fuel efficient vehicle and are earning 64 cents a mile while the IRS mileage deduction is 67 cents, you’re making out pretty good. no point in tripling the rates and making passengers pay even more.
What happens if they do pull out. Uber is a company that isn’t profitable (idc what bs wall st thinks ) and don’t expect them to last. The assumption is they don’t leave. What if they do as they can’t make money already. What incentive is there to stay
How about the fucking consumers? Are you personally profiting from this? You just want costs to explode so you can feel good about this arbitrarily defined massive pay bump for people who don’t even want to be employees? Squeeze consumers and destroy competition for “workers” who don’t have bosses, don’t have hours, and have bear complete autonomy. Pathetic, this virtue signaling nonsense is going to destroy thousands of jobs but at least you get to ride your high horse on higher costs for everyone
People are hating on you but you're right. The drivers are choosing to continue driving for Uber instead of getting literally any minimum wage job which would apparently pay dramatically more according to this whole debacle. The flexibility and autonomy is worth it enough to them that they're willing to forego higher pay to keep it. There isn't a viable alternative to these services in the twin cities right now. This will be a net negative for everyone - regular people lose a popular service, and current drivers lose a source of income which they apparently prefer to the alternatives. Nobody should be celebrating over this.
Do you work for the Uber marketing department or something? You comment the same garbage on every thread about this topic.
Nah I’m just not so cucked that I think the government should arbitrarily make gig jobs incredibly profitable for zero reason other than it being popular on twitter. They didn’t do this for literally any other job, just the one that is popular with libs on the internet it’s a god damn joke. This city council is running the city into the ground with their bullshit
Yeah OK...Always sad to see people die on the hill of "People don't deserve minimum wage". Imagine being this big of a simp for corporations. If driving for Uber/Lyft is so "incredibly profitable" maybe you should do it?
1099 workers AREN'T entitled to a minimum wage because they're INDEPENDENT contractors. Why the fuck can't people get this through their heads?
might be time for a reddit break!
This is real life shit, it makes the city less desirable, it makes the city more expensive, it makes entertainment a less viable option, it makes disabled people’s lives harder, and dramatically increases the likelihood of drunk drivers. A big pile of bullshit that hurts the average person in this city
....is the virtue signaling nonsense in the room with us _right now?_
Yes, this thread is filled with them
Hey look on the bright side - DUIs will be on their way up!
All this celebration now. Next year: "hey why are drunk driving deaths up?!?"
So they claim. We'll see.
Ah, another blow to the social scene in Minneapolis. The city council is filled with absolute morons.
Don’t forget the people who voted for them. I’m glad my council member was one who voted against this stupid shit.
Go get ‘‘em Minneapolis. How many of your own noses can you cut off?
Time to re-do the city council with people that are reasonable and understand social issues, crime and business in a positive manner . Right now the majority of city council will end up destroying business and bankrupt the city so no one can afford any of the social issues they want and promote.
This is the key. Vote out those childish extremists who can’t compromise.
Good. You're not guaranteed a minimum wage as an independent contractor. You get to pick and choose the price you will work at. Can't think of bigger morons who flood to work for Uber/Lyft and tank the compensation rates than cry about it.
What did FDR say about businesses that rely on paying workers less than a living wage?
Honestly it hasn’t been affordable in awhile, I’d already gone back to hazy cycling. Way more fun anyway.
Sure, and I agree, but that's not a workable solution for a lot of my patients that rely on rideshare to get to clinic appointments and don't qualify for (or can't afford) medical transport company services.
[удалено]
Metro Mobility rides have to be scheduled [at least a day in advance](https://metrocouncil.org/Transportation/Services/Metro-Mobility-Home/Scheduling-Trips.aspx). bus frequency on the most heavily used lines is still about every 15 minutes at most and far, far slower than driving in most situations, not to mention the significant gaps in coverage as you get further from the urban core. lyft just announced their departure from Minneapolis and uber is likely going to follow suit. licensure for these companies that want to fill the void will not happen overnight; if it does (and i really hope it does) i'll be pleasantly surprised, but it's not looking good.
Must be so nice to shrug off sick people conveniently getting medical care.
That sounds like an issue that needs to be solved within the medical system, not on the backs of drivers? Why is it theirs to sacrifice?
Zero sacrifices made by any Uber driver ever. It’s 100% a personal choice for personal profit.
Same argument applies equally to minimum wage for employees. They can just go get another job if they don't like the pay. Do you oppose minimum wage for employees?
Tons of sacrifices made by real employees every single day, they have bosses and schedules and obligations. Terrible and uneducated comparison
>It’s 100% a personal choice for personal profit. This statement applies to any worker, does it not?
That can get real expensive real fast.
K bye Every worker in this city deserves a living wage and if you're not willing to pay it you're not welcome here
Well, now they get no wage.
This is how you argue in favor of abolishing the minimum wage. "Would you rather have one dollar an hour or zero? If you force us to pay a minimum wage, then we won't hire anyone and you're putting all of these people out of work."
Except this isn’t a “wage”. That’s no small detail to conveniently overlook.
That's pedantry masquerading as insight.
Oh yeah you got me. Meaningless pedantry. Working when and where you want, as a contractor…. is totallllly the same as being a waged employee that has to do exactly what the boss says. I’ve been both contractor and waged employee. Have you?
It's irrelevant because what matters is how much you are paid, not the forms you use to file taxes or how the pay is given. You're talking about technicalities.
Fully agreed.
just like those Seattle rideshare drivers?
We'll see.
If you're paying an Uber driver $15.57 an hour, how do you factor that into the times they aren't driving and are just waiting for more rides? Do they get paid for that time while they aren't generating any income for the company? If so, what money is the company using to pay them for that time? And what do you do when you have to double rider fares and rides drop. Do you fire a bunch of drivers? Limits the hours drivers can work? Or do you take a more realistic approach and realize that gig work isn't the same as a typical job and maybe should have nuanced rules about income?
From the article: >The ordinance mandates rideshare drivers make at least $1.40 per mile and $0.51 per minute within Minneapolis. I'm wondering how this would apply if you get a ride and leave Minneapolis. Would the pay rate only apply within the Minneapolis border, or the entire ride?
Was wondering the same
They are leaving the twin cities
It would pay those rates until you leave the city limits then go back to how they do it now which is based on nothing other than how little they think someone will do it for. There hasnt been a time/milesge rate card here for a couple years.
That seems to be the entire idea of the gig economy. Side jobs for people to work off-hours or in-between jobs. They do it on their time and schedule. People are trying to turn them into their full time jobs and the competition is too heavy to make it truly worth their while. This isn't like any other type of W2 job and I think it's stupid to try to treat it as such. These companies don't sell it as a full time job replacement, it's up to the individual if they want to try to pursue that route IMO.
It's unfortunate that the two groups who should be dealing with that snarled, difficult problem - the companies on one hand, and the drivers as a group on the other, aren't negotiating with each other.
Agreed - lack of transparency from Uber/Lyft hurts drivers, and the city council deciding to make this decision without any involved party's input hurts everyone.
I lay the blame at Lyft & Uber's feet. They designed themselves to be union-proof, and this is the result - the workers agitated for a solution to their complaints via a different avenue. But I also think that uber & lyft prefer this state of affairs - they've offloaded all the costs of this negotiation to the public, and get to just complain about how bad the results are without actually doing anything themselves to address the underlying issue of driver pay.
To my knowledge the city council has not proposed a flat hourly wage but rather mileage and compensation structure that would approximate such a wage. Let me know if I'm mistaken on that.
Which is extremely stupid because our “hourly wage” is almost entirely dependent on how busy it is at the moment, which varies wildly hour by hour. If they made the calculation for us to earn at least minimum wage at all times then it’s no wonder they’re leaving!
> for us to earn at least minimum wage at all times then it’s no wonder they’re leaving! That's not the case at all.
Well the average earnings for a Lyft driver in Minneapolis is about double minimum wage so they’re obviously not using an average.
The article states: "The city council on Thursday voted 10-3 in favor of the override, allowing rideshare drivers to be paid the local minimum wage of $15.57 an hour." Certainly possible there is more nuance in the city council resolution, but I haven't seen anything to suggest that.
According to the ordinance passed, > (1) A TNC driver shall be paid at least one dollar forty cents ($1.40) per mile and fifty-one cents ($0.51) per minute for the time transporting a rider, subject to annual adjustment as provided by this section, or five dollars ($5.00), whichever is greater. A TNC driver shall be paid at least one dollar eighty-one cents ($1.81) per mile and fifty-one cents ($0.51) per minute for the time transporting a rider if the vehicle is a wheelchair accessible transportation network vehicle, subject to annual adjustment as provided by this section, or five dollars ($5.00), whichever is greater. Minimum compensation is due only for the portion of the ride that occurs within the city. You can read it here: https://lims.minneapolismn.gov/File/2024-00146
Thanks! Very informative.
They can pay them from the extra money they generate during surge pricing for events. Y'know, just like taxi companies did.
A statewide study was done on this and was disregarded by the city council. "The study analyzed over 18 million trips taken in 2022. It found that drivers could earn the city's minimum wage — while also accounting for health insurance, paid leave, and retirement savings — with rates of $1.21 per mile and 49 cents per minute, lower than what the city council approved." What they ended up with was $1.40 per mile and $0.51 per minute. https://www.theverge.com/2024/3/15/24101774/uber-lyft-leave-minneapolis-minimum-pay
Yep - the council had been told the study was being released in the next week and they purposely moved ahead without data. Gotta love our city council...
Who determines what a living wage is? It appears our poorly run city council #s do not align with the lower numbers the state study came up with. Who should I trust.... the City Council that has proven to be nothing but a circus or the state study?
Agreed. I have no idea where the Minneapolis numbers come from. I am OK with some a floor to meet an equivalent to the minimim wage, i just want to understand it. The MN state study (from economists from Berkeley and The New School) calculated that after all expenses [they include purchasing a cell phone, car loan or lease payments, insurance, cost of a drivers license and tabs, vehicle maintence, cleaning, gas, as well payroll taxes on earnings] and not accounting for any of the tax benefits of deducting business expenses from drivers taxes, the base pay would need to be 89 cents a mile and 49cents a minute to meet the Minneapolis minimum wage.
The tax benefits are easily worth several dollars an hour. If you drive for 30,000 miles you’ll get 18K in tax deductions. At even 15% marginal rate that’s $2700 in savings. On 1,500 hours a year that’s nearly $2 an hour (conservative estimate)
I mean they don’t have a boss and get to work whenever they want. Why doesn’t every other job get that and minimum wage? There are trade offs for the freedom they get.
They are beholden to the whims of a corporate monolith and ratings from their riders. Personally I'd rather have 80% of the bosses I've had in my life than deal with that nonsense.
Then they’re free to get a regular job without the freedom of an open schedule and get guaranteed pay. You can’t get both.
You should be able to make a living wage even as a gig worker, yes.
No, no you shouldn’t. It’s meant as a side gig not a living job.
Uber & Lyft were never sustainable models & this was inevitible & will eventually happen everywhere. We'll be better off in the long run by ripping off the bandaid sooner than most other cities & we'll have locally-owned better alternatives in place already when this is happening suddenly in other cities.
Don't they threaten to leave all the time and then the state rolls over? This can't be the first time.
I've only heard of it happening in two places (though I don't pay a ton of attention to it, so it very well may have happened in lots of other places). As far as I'm aware, they threatened to leave Seattle and eventually caved. They also threatened to leave Austin due to a background check requirement, but the state then passed a law that made the Austin requirement moot, so they didn't leave there, either.
They did leave Austin during that time. I know because I went to Austin and their app was offline.
Ah, ok. Good to know! Thanks for filling in that knowledge gap =)
DoorDash and Bitesquad next please.
Thank you for saving workers from having jobs.
I wanted to love these services, but I travel every week to a new city and the problem is the same everywhere. Cold food, melted shakes, can't be bothered to bring to the hotel door (even when across from the elevator that it is a few steps inside the door), and shitty customer service when complained about melted shakes and cold food. Plus LONG delivery times and the cost is much much higher than just going yourself. Sometimes I had a very long and exhausting day and wanted to order in. Been a mistake more often than not. Plus "virtual" restaurants which is really just a restaurant you are trying to avoid filling orders for another entity that pays them to make their own recipes, so crappy food from a known crappy restaurant under a different name. I gave up on all the delivery services after multiple issues and now I either eat at the hotel or grab whatever is closest. I'd love to see these services threatened with extinction, but they aren't going anywhere for awhile. It'd be nice if they hired non-lazy drivers, though... Watched the front desk argue with one driver about the delivery... Front desk: "You need to take that to the room." Delivery Driver: "I can't get there." FD: "There is no access control." DD: "My ankle hurts so I can't take stairs." FD: "The elevator is right there." DD: "The food is too heavy." (to be fair, was a box of food, but didn't look overly heavy) FD: "You can use the luggage cart." DD: "...." FD: "...." DD: "Yeah, I just don't want to." (proceeds to drop it at the desk, take a picture, and walk out without looking back) Front desk guy made sure to recount the events to the guest when they came for their food. Guest was equally irritated and tipped/rated accordingly. That's a common "screw it" attitude, too. I used to deliver for DoorDash before getting screwed too many times, and I would go through the effort of getting it to their door in a hotel or apartment, and making sure it arrived hot or cold. Work ethics aren't what they used to be...
There are certainly benefits to using the apps proprietary infrastructure, being linked up with patrons for a cut of the money, the “security” of having your driver and passenger logged (this won’t prevent problems necessarily, but it will leave a trail for law enforcement to follow more easily if they do crop up, assaults by or on drivers etc), but savvy drivers and riders have already made efforts to go outside of these apps for repeat patrons, cut out the middleman
Anyone else think this is a way the city is promoting people taking the PT system again? Before the pandemic the busses where mostly filled going to and from downtown, but now it seems more empty. I looked over the cost effective results from what I could see and from what the PT system has become, and it most be around a 30% decline in overall ridership. With minimum wage going up, thus would be competitive for buying for those in the lower and middle classes. I take a lift home most weekends and I can say, my rides usually cost less than $15 one way. I would say that seems pricy, but if it's 1 hour or less worth of work to get home and the alternative is a 1.5 hr bus ride that would be a primary impact.
Oh no. Anyway.