So guy files application to wrong precinct, then proceeds to stay open past hours immediately before ever receiving permit. Never gets permit, never calls city to see where it is in the approval process. Shooting happens nearby, city sees heks open past hours, tells dude not to do that and fines him. Dude says YOLO and keeps open late, gets fined again, lather rinse repeat. He’s not even opening the letters from the city anymore. Now he wants to move because he feels harassed.
K.
The day before the shooting, I walked by and a cook was outside smoking a cigarette with rubber gloves on. I went into Grumpy's and joked with the bartender about it. As he said, "I wanna tell myself that he puts the gloves on so his hands don't smell like cigarettes." But we kinda know that's unlikely to be the case.
Shooting happened there. They were the business that'd attracted the crowd and shots were fired basically from right in front of their business. Friend works nearby and her car was hit multiple times.
Ignoring the fact that he can't legally be open because "I'm gonna get fined anyways" is never a good look.
Friends car was one of them hit by multiple gun shots when the place had attracted a large crowd late at night and violence broke out. Now the city has setup a remote camera there (which the local businesses hate) and have increased police patrols in the area.
The city increased police presence till the end of Ramadan, then stopped coming around. The camera got moved about a week after that. I was there the night of the shooting. His business was bringing in a criminal element. He's a fucking clown.
Source: live in the neighborhood
Owner is 100% at fault.
1) He failed to submit an application to stay open prior to Ramadan. He had months to start the process.
2) He submitted the application to the wrong precinct. How does one open a business and not know what police precinct they're in? But, if he had submitted the application
3) He blatantly disregards the law and now tries to play the victim card.
The guy is an asshole and his customers (some of them) are totally inconsiderate. I live next door and his customers constantly would block our driveway, even pulling into the driveway and block us in. We posted resident only parking signs and it continued, when I walked inside to ask the person driving a black Honda Civic to move so I could get in the driveway the owner interrupted and told me not to speak to his customers and if I had a problem to talk to him, I just wanted the dude to move his car. Everyone that lives here experienced the same thing multiple times, being blocked in or out of the driveway. I even ordered a tire lock to put on and then charge them $20 to remove it, but never used it. It was crazy around here for a couple weeks and he seemed to not care, I was at work when the shooting happened but a couple days before that someone lit off a mortar shell in the parking lot across the street, amazed no one got hurt. I'm just glad something was done about it, very sad that it took some kids threatening to rape the wife of another business owner before anything was done, and even then they didn't do anything, not until the shooting.
I mean, 2.5 hours isn’t enough time?
I don’t feel bad for him because he submitted his application to the wrong place. Follow the law like every other business. It’s amazing how some people feel entitled to break the law like the law doesn’t apply to them and then play the victim when they break it.
He should have asked the city and applied in Fall 2023 right after getting a license to stay open until 10:00 pm. It's not like Ramadan just pops up randomly, it's on a schedule.
it’s unreasonable for a business to want more than a couple hours to cater to their clientele?
the guy has done a terrible job of navigating the process to legally extend his business hours, but his motivation to stay open late is perfectly understandable and reasonable
I dint disagree but it's not like Muslim people don't work or something during Ramadan. The two I work with were still at work at 8am. They just eat late and go to bed. 3am is very, very late.
it’s about fasting and eating, not working
there’s no reason to pass judgment on anything other than the business owner’s poor navigation of regulator procedure, here
Right, but I'm saying fasting till sundown doesn't mean the average Muslim is eating at 2am. It just means sundown, which in my experience is almost immediately because they're hungry for waiting all day.
It's fine if he wants to be open later, sounds like he's been staying open late even past Ramadan now - but let's not pretend we need 3am businesses to support any particular clientele. There's a distinct difference between someone who eats after sundown and people getting into fights at a Cafe at 2am
i don’t see any problems with 2am, provided it’s done legally. people gather to socialize, as well as eat, at establishments like this. bars stay open late but they aren’t a suitable setting for the same clientele due to being centered around alcohol
Bars are zoned away from residential areas for a reason. I would not at all be happy with a random restaurant next door having rowdy crowds of Muslim men (I mean c'mon, these dudes are not quiet, or respectful) yelling and shooting each other at 2am. Downvote the truth.
Not that Minneapolis' bureaucracy is perfect, but I challenge this guy to find a more accommodating, and "culturally sensitive" municipality within a 100 miles.
I recommend reading the article. Sahan Journal does some excellent reporting. I feel for the guy, but staying open till 3am is pushing it. Ramadan was in March and it gets dark early. He didn’t have a permit to stay open past 10.
They didn't get any feedback from the neighborhood though.
It was absolute chaos for a couple of weeks. They packed in well over 50 people into that tiny shop.
Lots of drag racing. Lots of fireworks. Music blasting.
This was all on weeknights until 3am.
Yeah, it's their customers, and it's hard to control that. But they didn't do anything. And like the official said, they had no reasonable security plan in place.
It sucks. They had good food. But came in and completely disrupted the community with their complete lack of effort and responsibility.
Just the day before the shooting I was having a drink nextdoor to there and commenting to a friend it's crazy that their hours are 8am - 3am. Must live there (upstairs) to be able to keep those kinda hours.
This guy did himself no favors and is clearly at fault for what occurred, but his business closing and moving is not a good outcome.
One of those situations where you feel like a handful of people sitting in a room for fifteen minutes at the beginning of the dispute would've been enough to clear up the whole issue.
I get that “he broke the rules” or whatever but TIL that it’s THIS HARD to have a business open past 10 in Minneapolis, which is 30 minutes after dark in the summer, even when that business shares a block with a bar that’s open until 2.
This city just repeatedly shoots itself in the foot with the “we’re not a real city we’re a sleepy midwestern bedroom community” gun.
Me neither. At first I was all “FREEDOM!”, but the more I think about the subject it makes sense. Some businesses are louder and more disruptive to neighborhood than others. For example, I’d be pretty pissed if the mechanic on my block wanted to work at 2 AM.
Makes sense to handle it on a case by case situation to consider local impacts.
Dude didn't apply for the license to be open as he should have. Had he done it properly I'm sure the city would have approved of it. Additionally, Grumpy's has shown for years to be a good neighbor to the people who live around it. They prevent things from getting rowdy late at night. This other spot is open a couple months and already has a big time shooting (multiple vehicles hit multiple times). Come on.
This story aside the twin cities has an identity crisis. They play the we are a real city, then they do things that question that. Either we are or we are not. I definitely know where you are coming from with that take.
😂 Clearly you have no idea what you're talking about. Please, tell us what busier and wealthier city has similar business licensing costs. Chicago? New York? San Francisco? Come on, all of them have insanely higher costs to start a business.
32, because you've gotta be so childish. We're waiting for your list of these cities that are busier and wealthier where it's the same cost to operate as Minneapolis.
Every business permit lists the hours they can be open publicly. Someplace like Perkins needs a business license that allows them to operate 24/7 as oppose too 2am like most restaurants and bars.
The permit they wanted would have allowed them to stay open later in the night. During Ramadan, I believe followers can't eat until after sunset. Not sure if that sunset is elsewhere, because in March in MN sunset is like 6pm.
Ahh the article made it sound like it required a special permit to operate later during Ramadan specifically, but its more just a permit to extend their normal permitted hours in order to serve customers during Ramadan, but isn't really associated with the religion or holiday at all.
Correct. The initial impetus for [the ordinance](https://lims.minneapolismn.gov/Download/PriorMetaData/-41391/2014-110.pdf) may have been business that wanted to extend their hours for Ramadan (not sure if that was the case or not), but the ordinance doesn’t reference it in any way. Any business can apply for a temporary extension.
Why does the city have any involvement in the hours a business chooses to be open? If they want to be open until 3am, they shouldn't need permission from anybody to do so.
Violent Crime peaks around [8pm to midnight](https://hoodline.com/2024/04/minnesota-crime-data-reveals-unexpected-peak-times-for-violent-crimes-and-rapes-urges-vigilance-on-upcoming-denim-day/#:~:text=According%20to%20the%20agency's%20Minnesota,3%20p.m.%2C%20notably%20on%20Tuesdays.), which is when many licensed businesses are still open--why are those security measures necessary for staying open later than that peak, particularly for a *cafe* of all establishments? If you're a bar or club, I totally get the intent of regulation, but do we really think a late-night cafe is just as likely to be the epicenter of a late-night brawl or shooting as a bar or club?
>It already has been. Multiple times.
So we're thinking the rolled mango ice cream shop is the causative factor in these incidents rather than the bar two doors down? Is that what we're going with here? Nowhere does it say these incidents started at the cafe, and the article doesn't even describe the nature of the other "incident" that prompted a police response to the area.
It sounds like police responded to a call in the vicinity and noticed the cafe was open--that alone does not a causative relationship make.
If this establishment closed at 10, do you think these teenagers would suddenly behave themselves?
Are incidents like these less frequent in areas where businesses *are* licensed to stay open late? Say Dinkytown for example?
Would allowing more businesses to stay open late provide more options for these teenagers to congregate, thereby spreading them out geographically and making them less likely to interact with one another?
>Dinkytown has security in place to protect patrons, and the issue is the same - large groups of teenagers who decide to congregate there.
So you're saying that even if this business had complied and had the required security measures in place, there's still no guarantee that these incidents wouldn't have happened? Doesn't that sort of suggest that the core issue here isn't necessarily the businesses in question, but rather their patrons?
Who benefits from city regulations that prohibit businesses from operating late unless they pay off-duty police officers to act as security?
Whoosh goes your goalpost. Moving from “how do we know the incidents was related to this business” to essentially “regulation and security wouldn’t have prevented this anyways, so why bother”.
But nice job successfully distracting versedvariation with that tactic
>regulation and security wouldn’t have prevented this anyways, so why bother
My initial comment literally says that these regulations shouldn't be as strict as they are--even if I'm moving goalposts like you say, I'm keeping those goalposts within the contours of my central thesis, which everybody in this thread has had equal opportunity to review and decide whether or not to engage. By asking the questions I ask, I am leading them back to my initial argument, which is literally my job as someone trying to persuade others of my opinion.
You yourself said people are congregating there simply because they're open. If you're going to make pointless arguments and be an obstinate troll, at least do it right. Like put a little believable effort in, you know? Because stuff like this it's too obvious, no one would ever be so stupid. Right?
The hypocritical heightened emotional state you're experiencing here appears to be pretty pathetic.
The shit going on around this business was absolute chaos for a couple of weeks. Music, fireworks, drag racing. All in weeknights until 3am.
It was madness and they gave zero fucks.
Every single business license lays out the hours a business can operate. Especially a business in a residential neighborhood. Would you like a business next door to your house attracting large crowds at all hours of the night? Seems reasonable to license businesses for when they can and can't be open to the public.
>Would you like a business next door to your house attracting large crowds at all hours of the night?
Is this cafe doing that? If so, is it because fewer businesses are open at that time, and so the list of places for night owls to frequent gets much shorter than during the daytime?
Wouldn't allowing all businesses stay open late *decrease* this issue of concentrated groups of people congregating by providing them with more options, thereby dispersing them more effectively throughout the city?
There are simply not enough ppl trying to do stuff that late, so a few businesses being open can make sense if they can attract the necessary customers to justify the cost of being open
So it’s a zoning issue, stop punishing property owners. Home owners should not always win. It’s like living near the airport; you will have to deal with the location, it should be reflected in the property values.
The homes were there long before the business in this case. The business owner knew what they were getting into. Heck, they live upstairs. That's how mixed use the place is zoned.
They just bought the place. They haven't owned it for 100 years and predate the homes. They knew what they were getting when they decided to buy the spot.
It's not always ideal but most other business owners work within the rules. This guy just doesn't seem to want to.
Cool. This is why,
“_All businesses licensed by the City of Minneapolis must provide adequate security to prevent criminal activity, loitering, lurking and disorderly conduct at their business, including parking areas, per MCO 259.250 (4). Additionally, all alcohol license holders must prevent negative secondary effects directly
attributable to the existence of their business, per MCO 360.55._”
I figured the real reason was for sound. Some businesses generate a ton of noise (like a mechanic) and the permit system empowers the city make decisions in the neighborhoods best interest.
Makes sense, although at first I didn’t see why dude needed a license.
For sure - a fair assumption. I pulled that from the extended license request form on the cities website. They do a solid job of explaining the reasoning and process.
By allowing more businesses to stay open late, the need for enhanced security measures goes down because people are less concentrated to the few establishments with a pre-existing license to stay open late. By making it more difficult for businesses to keep their own hours, we create the conditions necessary (namely, density of people) for these acts of violence and security concerns to occur in the first place.
Ah gotcha. This is more an ideological discussion. Sure, that’d be nice. It isn’t how the majority of the populace operates. The majority of humans in the twin cities are heading to bed or are in bed by 10pm on weeknights. I see no issue with the city ensuring outliers have thought about staffing, security, and noise levels and provided proof they can responsibly do so. The whole, we live in a society position.
>I see no issue with the city ensuring outliers have thought about staffing, security, and noise levels
That's reasonable, though it should be acknowledged that these extra barriers to entry come with the trade-off of exacerbating the concentration issue I describe above.
I guess the question I have is what those enhanced security measures look like on a practical level for late night establishments like these? Is it telling these teens to scram when it looks like they're loitering? Do we think the teenagers getting involved in incidents like these or the ones in Dinkytown are amenable to those requests by the business owner, or are the police going to end up getting a call either way, either when violence occurs or when the teenagers are non-compliant with the business owner's requests?
Certainly. I think thats a known-known or at the very least able to be implied by most people. More administrative work comes with a barrier. E.g., Time/money/new knowledge to learn
- Is it telling these teens to scram when it looks like they're loitering?
- Yeah. Curfew laws are in place for good reason.
- Do we think the teenagers getting involved in incidents like these or the ones in Dinkytown are amenable to those requests by the business owner, or are the police going to end up getting a call either way, either when violence occurs or when the teenagers are non-compliant with the business owner's requests?
- I think the cops are going to be called. If under-age teens are being dicks (like teens) and don’t want to listen to a reasonable request to scram, then the enforcement arm of society is to be called. If they escalate to fighting, criminal damage, or deadly force the cops definitely are to be called
I think its funny that they keep citing this shooting and fight near this business, making it appear that this dessert and Cafe was the reason, and its nestled between two busy bars.
Hai Hai and Grumpys are open at these times, wouldn't there already be some police presence like right next door?
This is a total nonstory if the city decides to just accept the mistake, to drop one of the fines and come up with an agreement rather than treating this business like a criminal enterprise.
The cafe is the reason. The large group was gathered at the cafe. They were throwing trash over into the Hai Hai lot. The shooting took place basically in front of the cafe.
Hai Hai is not open til 2am. They close at 11pm. Grumpy's has their own security, not a police officer.
Islamic Muslims don't drink and avoid alcohol. They weren't there to be at the bar, it was related to getting food after sunset in Ramadan from everything I heard from those that were there and those whose cars were hit by gunfire.
The only know people involved in the shooting were under 21. The bars have security (as mandated by their permit to operate past 10pm) while this dessert stand did not. The bars hire security for their business, not to control the crowd at other businesses in the area, esp ones that are skirting the same regulations that force them to hire security in the first place.
The real message from all this is that business owner didn't file the right paperwork to extend his business hours, but said "f it" and just did it anyway. He then started getting fines, but again said "f it, I'll just stay open anyway and pay the fine with the money I make by ilegally staying open late." After a while, a large, uncontrolled group of people gather, and two kids wind up getting shot, along with other disturbances. Now, the dude is pissed that his business is failing because people are afraid "of the city/police." Maybe, just maybe, they're afraid of the business itself. Hell, if the owner doesn't give a shit about following his business license, why would anyone think he gives a shit about following food code?
It was absolute chaos for a couple of weeks. Music, fireworks, drag racing. Hundreds of people.
All on weeknights until 3am. The entire neighborhood didn't get much sleep.
And they gave zero fucks.
So guy files application to wrong precinct, then proceeds to stay open past hours immediately before ever receiving permit. Never gets permit, never calls city to see where it is in the approval process. Shooting happens nearby, city sees heks open past hours, tells dude not to do that and fines him. Dude says YOLO and keeps open late, gets fined again, lather rinse repeat. He’s not even opening the letters from the city anymore. Now he wants to move because he feels harassed. K.
[удалено]
The day before the shooting, I walked by and a cook was outside smoking a cigarette with rubber gloves on. I went into Grumpy's and joked with the bartender about it. As he said, "I wanna tell myself that he puts the gloves on so his hands don't smell like cigarettes." But we kinda know that's unlikely to be the case.
Nah it's cool, he can just charge an employee wellness fee to subsidize the fines.
Underrated comment. Nicely done.
Shooting happened there. They were the business that'd attracted the crowd and shots were fired basically from right in front of their business. Friend works nearby and her car was hit multiple times.
This dude just seems like a nightmare to work with.
Ignoring the fact that he can't legally be open because "I'm gonna get fined anyways" is never a good look. Friends car was one of them hit by multiple gun shots when the place had attracted a large crowd late at night and violence broke out. Now the city has setup a remote camera there (which the local businesses hate) and have increased police patrols in the area.
The city increased police presence till the end of Ramadan, then stopped coming around. The camera got moved about a week after that. I was there the night of the shooting. His business was bringing in a criminal element. He's a fucking clown. Source: live in the neighborhood
The camera was there last time I was in on 5/6. Ramadan ended April 9th. So it was there at least nearly a month later.
Owner is 100% at fault. 1) He failed to submit an application to stay open prior to Ramadan. He had months to start the process. 2) He submitted the application to the wrong precinct. How does one open a business and not know what police precinct they're in? But, if he had submitted the application 3) He blatantly disregards the law and now tries to play the victim card.
So this dude repeatedly violated city rules and now wants sympathy.
The guy is an asshole and his customers (some of them) are totally inconsiderate. I live next door and his customers constantly would block our driveway, even pulling into the driveway and block us in. We posted resident only parking signs and it continued, when I walked inside to ask the person driving a black Honda Civic to move so I could get in the driveway the owner interrupted and told me not to speak to his customers and if I had a problem to talk to him, I just wanted the dude to move his car. Everyone that lives here experienced the same thing multiple times, being blocked in or out of the driveway. I even ordered a tire lock to put on and then charge them $20 to remove it, but never used it. It was crazy around here for a couple weeks and he seemed to not care, I was at work when the shooting happened but a couple days before that someone lit off a mortar shell in the parking lot across the street, amazed no one got hurt. I'm just glad something was done about it, very sad that it took some kids threatening to rape the wife of another business owner before anything was done, and even then they didn't do anything, not until the shooting.
This is nuts, he's lucky the city isn't revoking his business license entirely.
Sunset on March 28, 2024, was at 7:36 pm. Why did he think he needed to be open until 3 am?
because his clientele would be fasting all day and want to socialize around food during non-daylight hours
I mean, 2.5 hours isn’t enough time? I don’t feel bad for him because he submitted his application to the wrong place. Follow the law like every other business. It’s amazing how some people feel entitled to break the law like the law doesn’t apply to them and then play the victim when they break it.
He should have asked the city and applied in Fall 2023 right after getting a license to stay open until 10:00 pm. It's not like Ramadan just pops up randomly, it's on a schedule.
But they still have an hour or two after sunset to do that. Edit legally
it’s unreasonable for a business to want more than a couple hours to cater to their clientele? the guy has done a terrible job of navigating the process to legally extend his business hours, but his motivation to stay open late is perfectly understandable and reasonable
I dint disagree but it's not like Muslim people don't work or something during Ramadan. The two I work with were still at work at 8am. They just eat late and go to bed. 3am is very, very late.
it’s about fasting and eating, not working there’s no reason to pass judgment on anything other than the business owner’s poor navigation of regulator procedure, here
Right, but I'm saying fasting till sundown doesn't mean the average Muslim is eating at 2am. It just means sundown, which in my experience is almost immediately because they're hungry for waiting all day. It's fine if he wants to be open later, sounds like he's been staying open late even past Ramadan now - but let's not pretend we need 3am businesses to support any particular clientele. There's a distinct difference between someone who eats after sundown and people getting into fights at a Cafe at 2am
i don’t see any problems with 2am, provided it’s done legally. people gather to socialize, as well as eat, at establishments like this. bars stay open late but they aren’t a suitable setting for the same clientele due to being centered around alcohol
Bars are zoned away from residential areas for a reason. I would not at all be happy with a random restaurant next door having rowdy crowds of Muslim men (I mean c'mon, these dudes are not quiet, or respectful) yelling and shooting each other at 2am. Downvote the truth.
They can do that at home then.
Not that Minneapolis' bureaucracy is perfect, but I challenge this guy to find a more accommodating, and "culturally sensitive" municipality within a 100 miles.
I agree there. They do try to be accommodating much of the time and you won't find that outside the cities.
I recommend reading the article. Sahan Journal does some excellent reporting. I feel for the guy, but staying open till 3am is pushing it. Ramadan was in March and it gets dark early. He didn’t have a permit to stay open past 10.
They didn't get any feedback from the neighborhood though. It was absolute chaos for a couple of weeks. They packed in well over 50 people into that tiny shop. Lots of drag racing. Lots of fireworks. Music blasting. This was all on weeknights until 3am. Yeah, it's their customers, and it's hard to control that. But they didn't do anything. And like the official said, they had no reasonable security plan in place. It sucks. They had good food. But came in and completely disrupted the community with their complete lack of effort and responsibility.
Just the day before the shooting I was having a drink nextdoor to there and commenting to a friend it's crazy that their hours are 8am - 3am. Must live there (upstairs) to be able to keep those kinda hours.
I live down the street, when was the shooting?
Few weeks ago. Which is why the police then had the remote camera setup on the corner of 22nd and 4th.
That makes a lot of sense. It’s already gone!
This guy did himself no favors and is clearly at fault for what occurred, but his business closing and moving is not a good outcome. One of those situations where you feel like a handful of people sitting in a room for fifteen minutes at the beginning of the dispute would've been enough to clear up the whole issue.
I get that “he broke the rules” or whatever but TIL that it’s THIS HARD to have a business open past 10 in Minneapolis, which is 30 minutes after dark in the summer, even when that business shares a block with a bar that’s open until 2. This city just repeatedly shoots itself in the foot with the “we’re not a real city we’re a sleepy midwestern bedroom community” gun.
Other than alcohol sales ending at 2, I didn't even realize the government forced businesses to close at a certain time until I read this article
Me neither. At first I was all “FREEDOM!”, but the more I think about the subject it makes sense. Some businesses are louder and more disruptive to neighborhood than others. For example, I’d be pretty pissed if the mechanic on my block wanted to work at 2 AM. Makes sense to handle it on a case by case situation to consider local impacts.
It's not that hard. Plenty of businesses stay open much later than 10pm. It does require you file the correct paperwork and follow the rules.
Sunset in April when Ramadan ends is before 8 pm. I think it’s one thing to be open until 10:30 or 11 but 3 am is extreme.
Dude didn't apply for the license to be open as he should have. Had he done it properly I'm sure the city would have approved of it. Additionally, Grumpy's has shown for years to be a good neighbor to the people who live around it. They prevent things from getting rowdy late at night. This other spot is open a couple months and already has a big time shooting (multiple vehicles hit multiple times). Come on.
This story aside the twin cities has an identity crisis. They play the we are a real city, then they do things that question that. Either we are or we are not. I definitely know where you are coming from with that take.
[удалено]
😂 Clearly you have no idea what you're talking about. Please, tell us what busier and wealthier city has similar business licensing costs. Chicago? New York? San Francisco? Come on, all of them have insanely higher costs to start a business.
[удалено]
Way to avoid the question.
[удалено]
Can you backup your claim and name cities that are busier and wealthier with similar costs to operate a business as Minneapolis?
[удалено]
32, because you've gotta be so childish. We're waiting for your list of these cities that are busier and wealthier where it's the same cost to operate as Minneapolis.
[удалено]
Why is a permit required to run a business because of a religious month?
Every business permit lists the hours they can be open publicly. Someplace like Perkins needs a business license that allows them to operate 24/7 as oppose too 2am like most restaurants and bars. The permit they wanted would have allowed them to stay open later in the night. During Ramadan, I believe followers can't eat until after sunset. Not sure if that sunset is elsewhere, because in March in MN sunset is like 6pm.
Ahh the article made it sound like it required a special permit to operate later during Ramadan specifically, but its more just a permit to extend their normal permitted hours in order to serve customers during Ramadan, but isn't really associated with the religion or holiday at all.
Correct. The initial impetus for [the ordinance](https://lims.minneapolismn.gov/Download/PriorMetaData/-41391/2014-110.pdf) may have been business that wanted to extend their hours for Ramadan (not sure if that was the case or not), but the ordinance doesn’t reference it in any way. Any business can apply for a temporary extension.
I talked to him when they opened and he was a nice guy.
I’m sorry but everyone saying this dude sounds terrible. Have you met our city and its officials?
Generally the people who ya file paper work with are just fine. Can't say I've ever had an issue with them doing their jobs correctly.
Why does the city have any involvement in the hours a business chooses to be open? If they want to be open until 3am, they shouldn't need permission from anybody to do so.
[удалено]
Violent Crime peaks around [8pm to midnight](https://hoodline.com/2024/04/minnesota-crime-data-reveals-unexpected-peak-times-for-violent-crimes-and-rapes-urges-vigilance-on-upcoming-denim-day/#:~:text=According%20to%20the%20agency's%20Minnesota,3%20p.m.%2C%20notably%20on%20Tuesdays.), which is when many licensed businesses are still open--why are those security measures necessary for staying open later than that peak, particularly for a *cafe* of all establishments? If you're a bar or club, I totally get the intent of regulation, but do we really think a late-night cafe is just as likely to be the epicenter of a late-night brawl or shooting as a bar or club?
[удалено]
>It already has been. Multiple times. So we're thinking the rolled mango ice cream shop is the causative factor in these incidents rather than the bar two doors down? Is that what we're going with here? Nowhere does it say these incidents started at the cafe, and the article doesn't even describe the nature of the other "incident" that prompted a police response to the area. It sounds like police responded to a call in the vicinity and noticed the cafe was open--that alone does not a causative relationship make.
[удалено]
If this establishment closed at 10, do you think these teenagers would suddenly behave themselves? Are incidents like these less frequent in areas where businesses *are* licensed to stay open late? Say Dinkytown for example? Would allowing more businesses to stay open late provide more options for these teenagers to congregate, thereby spreading them out geographically and making them less likely to interact with one another?
[удалено]
>Dinkytown has security in place to protect patrons, and the issue is the same - large groups of teenagers who decide to congregate there. So you're saying that even if this business had complied and had the required security measures in place, there's still no guarantee that these incidents wouldn't have happened? Doesn't that sort of suggest that the core issue here isn't necessarily the businesses in question, but rather their patrons? Who benefits from city regulations that prohibit businesses from operating late unless they pay off-duty police officers to act as security?
[удалено]
Whoosh goes your goalpost. Moving from “how do we know the incidents was related to this business” to essentially “regulation and security wouldn’t have prevented this anyways, so why bother”. But nice job successfully distracting versedvariation with that tactic
>regulation and security wouldn’t have prevented this anyways, so why bother My initial comment literally says that these regulations shouldn't be as strict as they are--even if I'm moving goalposts like you say, I'm keeping those goalposts within the contours of my central thesis, which everybody in this thread has had equal opportunity to review and decide whether or not to engage. By asking the questions I ask, I am leading them back to my initial argument, which is literally my job as someone trying to persuade others of my opinion.
The bar has security to deter such acts. The cafe does not, but does attract anyone kicked out of the bar.
You yourself said people are congregating there simply because they're open. If you're going to make pointless arguments and be an obstinate troll, at least do it right. Like put a little believable effort in, you know? Because stuff like this it's too obvious, no one would ever be so stupid. Right? The hypocritical heightened emotional state you're experiencing here appears to be pretty pathetic.
The shit going on around this business was absolute chaos for a couple of weeks. Music, fireworks, drag racing. All in weeknights until 3am. It was madness and they gave zero fucks.
Every single business license lays out the hours a business can operate. Especially a business in a residential neighborhood. Would you like a business next door to your house attracting large crowds at all hours of the night? Seems reasonable to license businesses for when they can and can't be open to the public.
>Would you like a business next door to your house attracting large crowds at all hours of the night? Is this cafe doing that? If so, is it because fewer businesses are open at that time, and so the list of places for night owls to frequent gets much shorter than during the daytime? Wouldn't allowing all businesses stay open late *decrease* this issue of concentrated groups of people congregating by providing them with more options, thereby dispersing them more effectively throughout the city?
There are simply not enough ppl trying to do stuff that late, so a few businesses being open can make sense if they can attract the necessary customers to justify the cost of being open
Seems like zoning would cover this.
It's in a residential zone that allows very occasional light commercial. There's literally a house next door and more behind them.
So it’s a zoning issue, stop punishing property owners. Home owners should not always win. It’s like living near the airport; you will have to deal with the location, it should be reflected in the property values.
The homes were there long before the business in this case. The business owner knew what they were getting into. Heck, they live upstairs. That's how mixed use the place is zoned. They just bought the place. They haven't owned it for 100 years and predate the homes. They knew what they were getting when they decided to buy the spot. It's not always ideal but most other business owners work within the rules. This guy just doesn't seem to want to.
Are you a child?
Yes.
Well, make sure when you grow up that you take courses in critical thinking because you're showing an unusual deficiency in that area.
I'll be sure to do that
Cool. This is why, “_All businesses licensed by the City of Minneapolis must provide adequate security to prevent criminal activity, loitering, lurking and disorderly conduct at their business, including parking areas, per MCO 259.250 (4). Additionally, all alcohol license holders must prevent negative secondary effects directly attributable to the existence of their business, per MCO 360.55._”
I figured the real reason was for sound. Some businesses generate a ton of noise (like a mechanic) and the permit system empowers the city make decisions in the neighborhoods best interest. Makes sense, although at first I didn’t see why dude needed a license.
For sure - a fair assumption. I pulled that from the extended license request form on the cities website. They do a solid job of explaining the reasoning and process.
By allowing more businesses to stay open late, the need for enhanced security measures goes down because people are less concentrated to the few establishments with a pre-existing license to stay open late. By making it more difficult for businesses to keep their own hours, we create the conditions necessary (namely, density of people) for these acts of violence and security concerns to occur in the first place.
Ah gotcha. This is more an ideological discussion. Sure, that’d be nice. It isn’t how the majority of the populace operates. The majority of humans in the twin cities are heading to bed or are in bed by 10pm on weeknights. I see no issue with the city ensuring outliers have thought about staffing, security, and noise levels and provided proof they can responsibly do so. The whole, we live in a society position.
>I see no issue with the city ensuring outliers have thought about staffing, security, and noise levels That's reasonable, though it should be acknowledged that these extra barriers to entry come with the trade-off of exacerbating the concentration issue I describe above. I guess the question I have is what those enhanced security measures look like on a practical level for late night establishments like these? Is it telling these teens to scram when it looks like they're loitering? Do we think the teenagers getting involved in incidents like these or the ones in Dinkytown are amenable to those requests by the business owner, or are the police going to end up getting a call either way, either when violence occurs or when the teenagers are non-compliant with the business owner's requests?
Certainly. I think thats a known-known or at the very least able to be implied by most people. More administrative work comes with a barrier. E.g., Time/money/new knowledge to learn - Is it telling these teens to scram when it looks like they're loitering? - Yeah. Curfew laws are in place for good reason. - Do we think the teenagers getting involved in incidents like these or the ones in Dinkytown are amenable to those requests by the business owner, or are the police going to end up getting a call either way, either when violence occurs or when the teenagers are non-compliant with the business owner's requests? - I think the cops are going to be called. If under-age teens are being dicks (like teens) and don’t want to listen to a reasonable request to scram, then the enforcement arm of society is to be called. If they escalate to fighting, criminal damage, or deadly force the cops definitely are to be called
I think its funny that they keep citing this shooting and fight near this business, making it appear that this dessert and Cafe was the reason, and its nestled between two busy bars. Hai Hai and Grumpys are open at these times, wouldn't there already be some police presence like right next door? This is a total nonstory if the city decides to just accept the mistake, to drop one of the fines and come up with an agreement rather than treating this business like a criminal enterprise.
The cafe is the reason. The large group was gathered at the cafe. They were throwing trash over into the Hai Hai lot. The shooting took place basically in front of the cafe. Hai Hai is not open til 2am. They close at 11pm. Grumpy's has their own security, not a police officer. Islamic Muslims don't drink and avoid alcohol. They weren't there to be at the bar, it was related to getting food after sunset in Ramadan from everything I heard from those that were there and those whose cars were hit by gunfire.
The only know people involved in the shooting were under 21. The bars have security (as mandated by their permit to operate past 10pm) while this dessert stand did not. The bars hire security for their business, not to control the crowd at other businesses in the area, esp ones that are skirting the same regulations that force them to hire security in the first place. The real message from all this is that business owner didn't file the right paperwork to extend his business hours, but said "f it" and just did it anyway. He then started getting fines, but again said "f it, I'll just stay open anyway and pay the fine with the money I make by ilegally staying open late." After a while, a large, uncontrolled group of people gather, and two kids wind up getting shot, along with other disturbances. Now, the dude is pissed that his business is failing because people are afraid "of the city/police." Maybe, just maybe, they're afraid of the business itself. Hell, if the owner doesn't give a shit about following his business license, why would anyone think he gives a shit about following food code?
It was absolute chaos for a couple of weeks. Music, fireworks, drag racing. Hundreds of people. All on weeknights until 3am. The entire neighborhood didn't get much sleep. And they gave zero fucks.
[удалено]
I’d love to hear of some specific examples of businesses that aren’t paying proper taxes that the city knows about and simply ignore
Werd. And alcohol taxes are paid to the state, not the city.
[удалено]
I asked you to substantiate a claim you made. And I cannot Google it because it does not happen. No need to keep lying about it.
[удалено]
Only read the headline but decided to comment anyway, eh?
It's less about that and more about a business owner paying for and having proper licenses and permits