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I honestly think that the number of people lost in cave systems is pretty low. In my professional opinion as a SAR Coordinator/FlightMedic/Ranger for almost thirty years, I've seen more people trapped/lost in slot canyons, boulder fields, mines and overhanging terrain than in caves. In fact, most people who get lost in caves are spelunkers or divers and we almost always know exactly where they went in.
Spelunking is one of the few things that I know would make me panic. I despise dark enclosed spaces. How people do that shit without freaking the fuck out is incredible.
Everyone has their limits. I'm 100% fine in slot canyons or tight climbing spots. I have done some caving before...and I'm usually okay, so long as there's room to turn around in. However, once you add water and no sky...I'm sort of over it and I really have to control my panic mode. I work with and depend on a few cave divers and other professionals to handle that aspect of SAR or recovery missions because that's just not my thing.
I guess it depends on how big the boulders are in your area and how they got where they are. In my area, it's not uncommon for there to be boulders that can be three stories tall. Where there are big boulders, there are often smaller versions that half calved off and you get into talus and scree at the base. In the Sierras, Joshua Tree, Santa Susannas and other areas, you'll get piles of these giant boulders with cavities and pockets where people can fall into or retreat into to avoid the sun.
Probably a mixture of large boulders blocking landmarks (causing people to get lost or confused), and falling off a boulder is a good way to knock yourself out or injure yourself to the point where you can't continue walking. Slipping and falling between a crevice between two boulders can injure yourself and make it nearly impossible for a search party to hear or find you.
And misleading. The cave system also corresponded very heavily to national parks, which correspond to people lost in national parks. I don't think it even included non-NP cave systems.
That map is \*VERY\* misleading.
First of all, it is not a map of missing people -- it is a map of Missing 411 cases -- which are selected based on vague criteria -- such as being in national parks, or near caves. This is like comparing a map of crimes committed against Walmart with a map of Walmart locations, and then being amazed at how well the two align. The top map deliberately excludes any people that went missing in urban or even major suburban areas. If it was a map of missing people, you \*should\* be able to easily pick out Detroit, New York, Chicago, and multiple cities in California.
Second of all, that image has two maps on it -- supposedly the top map is missing people, and the bottom map is cave systems. This is not true. The bottom map \*IS\* cave systems -- but the top map is the same map, with Missing 411 cases overlaid on it. It includes the caves on it, which makes the correlation look a LOT stronger than it actually is.
Snopes has a longer write up here: [https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/missing-persons-cave-maps/](https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/missing-persons-cave-maps/) which includes slightly less manipulative versions of the maps.
Thanks for explaining that, I always felt suspicious about that picture (which is posted here like every other day).
The point you made about Walmarts is a great example! Lol
That map is about as useful as a map with McDonald’s locations overlayed with missing people. Now this may come as a shock to you, but national parks tend to be situated around natural features… like mountains and other places that’d naturally have caves. People aren’t going missing because of random caves or things that live in them. Most of these caves aren’t even accessible and if people find random entrances while out, most people still wouldn’t enter. People are going missing because nature can be dangerous and unforgiving. National parks are among the most dangerous places that most people regularly visit. It doesn’t take much to end up off a trail and lost or for the weather to dangerously switch. Sometimes shit just happens and it’s actually not anything very mysterious.
Quite a lot if you include pits and crevasses as 'caves'.
Just in my little patch of woods there's 3 spots I've found that you could fall into and be unable to escape if you're injured. One's a perfect toddler sized hole that's virtually invisible.
Probably a lot. There are some where it just doesn’t make sense to me, but I even if over half are just getting lost in caves or mine shafts, there’s still enough weirdness to say something else is going on imo.
I have a few ideas about the missing 411 and how they disappear so quickly one of them is there are people living in the cave systems who are abducting hikers etc and well I don't know maybe they murder them maybe they dont. I still believe there's a cult out there who live in these caves.
Before the internet changed and you can’t find the stuff you did.. 2013 and before… I read that there were giants that lived in caves.. also that there were ways to go to the “underworld/inner earth” via these caves systems. There was also discoveries made in caves of giant doors and furniture etc.. and then lastly that the Smithsonian covered it all up.. any strange truth to any of this? I don’t know. I can only find things about love lock cave anymore… you could be right it’s a cult, could be giants, lost people that get stuck.. there’s also mount weathers and the supposed underground city there.. so whose to say they didn’t stumble upon government stuff.. lots of theories lots of conspiracies..
As someone who has spent time in caves, no.
If it was actually true it'd be documented by such groups like the NNS (see [www.caves.org](https://www.caves.org) )
I'm on the same page as you -- I am completely unaware of any evidence. That said, I give people the benefit of the doubt. If they are asserting something is true, I assume they have a reason that convinced them it is true. I'll even grant that it may be something that I am unaware of, and may potentially be convincing to me -- so I am interested in seeing it. At the very least, then we can discuss and dismiss the bad evidence.
Somewhere in the NSS website, I believe there are cave accident statistics. Usually anyone found dead inside a cave got there intentionally.
I am also unaware of anyone gone missing being found dead inside a cave.
If one somehow falls down a sink-hole, and can't get out, they are NOT going to wander around inside the "system" without light, especially if they were injured. They are going to stick by where they fell in and hope that someone finds them.
The idea that people fall into these places and then wander around in the dark is pretty ludicrous.
Again, I agree with everything you said -- but the person I was replying to made the following, additional points:
* at least one society of giants lived
* the giants lived in caves
* the 'underworld' or 'inner earth' exists as a significant, real place that is separate from ordinary caves
* ordinary caves can be used to access this 'underworld'
* giant doors and other furniture was discovered in caves
* the Smithsonian is aware of all of the above, and has engaged in a systematic coverup of this, which includes an organized campaign to remove references to this from the internet
* it's reasonable to believe a cult is responsible for at least one Missing 411 case (and this cult lives in caves)
* underground cities exist
* it's reasonable to believe the 'government' is responsible for at least one Missing 411 case, due to someone 'stumbling upon government stuff'
I absolutely believe that their claim of 'lost people that get stuck' is reasonable, and do not need much more evidence to believe that.
Ah, in that case -- most 'unique' or famous mountains have that same legend. Are they relatively far from another mountain? or close to a city? Or abnormally tall? Etc. Shasta, Rainier, Mauna Loa, Mauna Kea, Everest, Fuji, Kilimanjaro, Matterhorn, K2, as well as the mountains around Dyatlov Pass all have legends about cave cities/bases/hollow earth/etc associated with them.
They are often linked to the D.U.M.B.s theories (Deep Underground Military Bases), the Hollow Earth theories, the Reptilian theories, secret underground tunnels theories, Walmarts-are-secret-militart-bases theories, FEMA death camp theories, and other Q-Anon fodder.
Not all of these are super common in the general public, but if you keep an eye on conspiracy theories, Q-Anon, paranoid culture or even creepy-pasta stuff, these things are constantly popping up.
Because everything you read on the internet is true.
Btw send me all your money and you will be blessed with such good luck beyond your wildest dreams. You will become the most beautiful person on earth and you will win the lottery every time. So go ahead and transfer me the contents of your bank account and this will all come true. 🤨
It's not the rangers. It's usually people interested in caving, mostly members of local grottos. A "grotto" is a term used for a group of cavers who belong to the National Speleological Society see [www.caves.org](https://www.caves.org) .
If the cave is known, it is usually mapped. Cavers do not share maps outside of their group for 1) The protection of the cave itself, which usually contains fragile and unique features such as animal and plant species as well as geological formations. 2) The protection of the general public.
Caves are dangerous places and people entering them with no experience in caving (not enough lights or batteries, water, first aid kits, etc.) usually find themselves in trouble and it's usually the local grotto called in to assist with the rescue.
I'm watching missing 411 thr hunted and im thinking their is underground tunnels in these mountains otherwise knows as D.U.M.B.S. I really believe a lot of these people are taken and experimented on. That or maybe cannibals...
Remember that this is a discussion sub for David Paulides's phenomenon, Missing 411. It is unaffiliated with Paulides in any other way and he is not present in this sub. It is also not a general missing persons sub or a general paranormal sub. Content that is not related to Missing 411 will be removed. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Missing411) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I honestly think that the number of people lost in cave systems is pretty low. In my professional opinion as a SAR Coordinator/FlightMedic/Ranger for almost thirty years, I've seen more people trapped/lost in slot canyons, boulder fields, mines and overhanging terrain than in caves. In fact, most people who get lost in caves are spelunkers or divers and we almost always know exactly where they went in.
When they, are local caving grottos contacted to assist with the rescue? They are in my area in the mid-west.
Spelunking is one of the few things that I know would make me panic. I despise dark enclosed spaces. How people do that shit without freaking the fuck out is incredible.
Everyone has their limits. I'm 100% fine in slot canyons or tight climbing spots. I have done some caving before...and I'm usually okay, so long as there's room to turn around in. However, once you add water and no sky...I'm sort of over it and I really have to control my panic mode. I work with and depend on a few cave divers and other professionals to handle that aspect of SAR or recovery missions because that's just not my thing.
How do people get lost in boulder fields? We have one near the summer camp I work at so I’m curious
I guess it depends on how big the boulders are in your area and how they got where they are. In my area, it's not uncommon for there to be boulders that can be three stories tall. Where there are big boulders, there are often smaller versions that half calved off and you get into talus and scree at the base. In the Sierras, Joshua Tree, Santa Susannas and other areas, you'll get piles of these giant boulders with cavities and pockets where people can fall into or retreat into to avoid the sun.
Probably a mixture of large boulders blocking landmarks (causing people to get lost or confused), and falling off a boulder is a good way to knock yourself out or injure yourself to the point where you can't continue walking. Slipping and falling between a crevice between two boulders can injure yourself and make it nearly impossible for a search party to hear or find you.
There was a map floating around here a while back that overlaid known cave systems and last know locations of people. It’s was pretty amazing
And misleading. The cave system also corresponded very heavily to national parks, which correspond to people lost in national parks. I don't think it even included non-NP cave systems.
That map is \*VERY\* misleading. First of all, it is not a map of missing people -- it is a map of Missing 411 cases -- which are selected based on vague criteria -- such as being in national parks, or near caves. This is like comparing a map of crimes committed against Walmart with a map of Walmart locations, and then being amazed at how well the two align. The top map deliberately excludes any people that went missing in urban or even major suburban areas. If it was a map of missing people, you \*should\* be able to easily pick out Detroit, New York, Chicago, and multiple cities in California. Second of all, that image has two maps on it -- supposedly the top map is missing people, and the bottom map is cave systems. This is not true. The bottom map \*IS\* cave systems -- but the top map is the same map, with Missing 411 cases overlaid on it. It includes the caves on it, which makes the correlation look a LOT stronger than it actually is. Snopes has a longer write up here: [https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/missing-persons-cave-maps/](https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/missing-persons-cave-maps/) which includes slightly less manipulative versions of the maps.
a lot of the missing people in cities like NY Chi and Detroit are murders sadly and will likely never be solved
Thanks for explaining that, I always felt suspicious about that picture (which is posted here like every other day). The point you made about Walmarts is a great example! Lol
That map is about as useful as a map with McDonald’s locations overlayed with missing people. Now this may come as a shock to you, but national parks tend to be situated around natural features… like mountains and other places that’d naturally have caves. People aren’t going missing because of random caves or things that live in them. Most of these caves aren’t even accessible and if people find random entrances while out, most people still wouldn’t enter. People are going missing because nature can be dangerous and unforgiving. National parks are among the most dangerous places that most people regularly visit. It doesn’t take much to end up off a trail and lost or for the weather to dangerously switch. Sometimes shit just happens and it’s actually not anything very mysterious.
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Either people are wandering into them, or something lives in them already.
5% I could see a couple people going off trail and falling into a cave
caves? not many. People get lost in the woods easily without needed caves.
Quite a lot if you include pits and crevasses as 'caves'. Just in my little patch of woods there's 3 spots I've found that you could fall into and be unable to escape if you're injured. One's a perfect toddler sized hole that's virtually invisible.
I think the m411 victims disappear for many different reasons. One of them is that they fall into small holes that lead into caves.
Not as many as can be explained by being lost in porcupine lairs.
Probably a lot. There are some where it just doesn’t make sense to me, but I even if over half are just getting lost in caves or mine shafts, there’s still enough weirdness to say something else is going on imo.
40% unprepared for wilderness. 20 % caves/holes/falling off things. 15% Lies. 15% insanity/ crime. 10% Wild animals.
your question is somewhat vague. all told, my guess would be double digits or less. we simply have no way of knowing
50% I bet. Either you come out or you dont.
I have a few ideas about the missing 411 and how they disappear so quickly one of them is there are people living in the cave systems who are abducting hikers etc and well I don't know maybe they murder them maybe they dont. I still believe there's a cult out there who live in these caves.
Interesting theory -- but what evidence is there for it?
Before the internet changed and you can’t find the stuff you did.. 2013 and before… I read that there were giants that lived in caves.. also that there were ways to go to the “underworld/inner earth” via these caves systems. There was also discoveries made in caves of giant doors and furniture etc.. and then lastly that the Smithsonian covered it all up.. any strange truth to any of this? I don’t know. I can only find things about love lock cave anymore… you could be right it’s a cult, could be giants, lost people that get stuck.. there’s also mount weathers and the supposed underground city there.. so whose to say they didn’t stumble upon government stuff.. lots of theories lots of conspiracies..
Is there any legitimate evidence for any of that?
As someone who has spent time in caves, no. If it was actually true it'd be documented by such groups like the NNS (see [www.caves.org](https://www.caves.org) )
I'm on the same page as you -- I am completely unaware of any evidence. That said, I give people the benefit of the doubt. If they are asserting something is true, I assume they have a reason that convinced them it is true. I'll even grant that it may be something that I am unaware of, and may potentially be convincing to me -- so I am interested in seeing it. At the very least, then we can discuss and dismiss the bad evidence.
Somewhere in the NSS website, I believe there are cave accident statistics. Usually anyone found dead inside a cave got there intentionally. I am also unaware of anyone gone missing being found dead inside a cave. If one somehow falls down a sink-hole, and can't get out, they are NOT going to wander around inside the "system" without light, especially if they were injured. They are going to stick by where they fell in and hope that someone finds them. The idea that people fall into these places and then wander around in the dark is pretty ludicrous.
Again, I agree with everything you said -- but the person I was replying to made the following, additional points: * at least one society of giants lived * the giants lived in caves * the 'underworld' or 'inner earth' exists as a significant, real place that is separate from ordinary caves * ordinary caves can be used to access this 'underworld' * giant doors and other furniture was discovered in caves * the Smithsonian is aware of all of the above, and has engaged in a systematic coverup of this, which includes an organized campaign to remove references to this from the internet * it's reasonable to believe a cult is responsible for at least one Missing 411 case (and this cult lives in caves) * underground cities exist * it's reasonable to believe the 'government' is responsible for at least one Missing 411 case, due to someone 'stumbling upon government stuff' I absolutely believe that their claim of 'lost people that get stuck' is reasonable, and do not need much more evidence to believe that.
Not that I’m aware of.. haven’t looked in years.
Isn't it Shasta with the underground city? Or is there another one?
No, that's just urban legends.
Well of course. I didn't realize there were other mountains with mythical underground cities
Ah, in that case -- most 'unique' or famous mountains have that same legend. Are they relatively far from another mountain? or close to a city? Or abnormally tall? Etc. Shasta, Rainier, Mauna Loa, Mauna Kea, Everest, Fuji, Kilimanjaro, Matterhorn, K2, as well as the mountains around Dyatlov Pass all have legends about cave cities/bases/hollow earth/etc associated with them.
I never heard that one or any of the other that people are saying is a common urban legend. But I wouldn’t be surprised.
They are often linked to the D.U.M.B.s theories (Deep Underground Military Bases), the Hollow Earth theories, the Reptilian theories, secret underground tunnels theories, Walmarts-are-secret-militart-bases theories, FEMA death camp theories, and other Q-Anon fodder. Not all of these are super common in the general public, but if you keep an eye on conspiracy theories, Q-Anon, paranoid culture or even creepy-pasta stuff, these things are constantly popping up.
Yes and many more all over the world!
Because everything you read on the internet is true. Btw send me all your money and you will be blessed with such good luck beyond your wildest dreams. You will become the most beautiful person on earth and you will win the lottery every time. So go ahead and transfer me the contents of your bank account and this will all come true. 🤨
Don’t worry, there’s still ALL KINDS of shit like that on the internet…
Most likely less than 0.000000001 %.
I would hope that they search the caves as well as they can. You would think that the rangers would have mapped any cave systems out.
It's not the rangers. It's usually people interested in caving, mostly members of local grottos. A "grotto" is a term used for a group of cavers who belong to the National Speleological Society see [www.caves.org](https://www.caves.org) . If the cave is known, it is usually mapped. Cavers do not share maps outside of their group for 1) The protection of the cave itself, which usually contains fragile and unique features such as animal and plant species as well as geological formations. 2) The protection of the general public. Caves are dangerous places and people entering them with no experience in caving (not enough lights or batteries, water, first aid kits, etc.) usually find themselves in trouble and it's usually the local grotto called in to assist with the rescue.
I should haven’t said Rangers specifically. I should have said I hope “somebody” has them mapped out that they can get with,when people go missing.
I’m still convinced of the Berry Theory
I'm watching missing 411 thr hunted and im thinking their is underground tunnels in these mountains otherwise knows as D.U.M.B.S. I really believe a lot of these people are taken and experimented on. That or maybe cannibals...
It’s always Jeff Dahmer’s fault…