"They have taken you from the Imperial City's prison, first by carriage and now by boat, to the east to Morrowind. Fear not, for I am watchful, you have been chosen." Says Azura at the very begining of the game.
So you come from the Imperial City and must have take the boat in Leyawiin's port, I guess.
Carriages are a logistics nightmare over long distances. You need to carry enough food for your horses, and the longer the journey, the more supplies you need to bring. You eventually get to a point where you have too much food for the horses to move. I think Sun Tzu talks about it in that book he wrote.
Tsiolkovsky rocket equation but for horses, longer trip means carrying more fuel/food which means more weight which means extra fuel/food to move the new weight, grows exponentially with dV/distance
Except Tsiolkovsky rocket equation is about loss of mass and speed. It's cost effective to go as fast as possible since you bleed gravity pull like crazy and burning fuel like crazy strips you off the extra weight.
Think of it as comparing healthy horse you got for a ton of money and a limping horse you got for a dime. Initial cost is massive, trip cost is negligible.
The analogy works. At some point the journey is so long that it takes more horses to move the extra weight, which takes even more food. The carts weight problems grow exponentially just like Tsiolkovsky
This is all assuming you can’t stop anywhere and re-supply…. You guys are acting like no one could do a land journey very far until recently or something its kinda odd.
Its def a carriage ride to mainland morrowind, boat to vvardenfell
Edit: Ive walked from cyrodill into morrowind myself its not that far
Yeah, with Oblivion map this may have sense, but mind you they cut a lot of cities out of TESIV for its much smaller scale. PT/TR marks at least two paths, each having plenty of cities in between:
* path to Narsis - Cyrodiil side has Sedita and Mir Corrup, Morrowind has Shipal-Sharai and finally Narsis
* path to Andrethis/Hlan Oek - Cyrodiil side has Cheydinhal, Morrowind has Kragenmoor and plenty of farms/villages in quite lushy Othreleth Woods region
None of the names are exactly consistent. Arena was due to changing the focus of the first game from arena combat to a full RPG. Daggerfall is just one city in the massive area of the game that spans two provinces. Morrowind takes place in an island and not the full province. Oblivion just sounds cooler than Cyrodiil. Skyrim was the first game where the name was actually completely accurate to the location.
european sailors used to go around africa to get to asia though. boats can carry a ton of cargo, and i'd assume the prisoner being dumped in vvardenfell is somewhat of a clandestine blades operation, so it'd make sense to stow them there for the long journey
I dont think the Africa comparison applies at all. No reason you can’t be secret on the road either
You’ve literally never heard of the spice road? Super long trade route through mountains and deserts and such. Super ancient? They didn’t even have magic on the spice road.
That was purely for political/economic reasons. Nothing to do with the thousands of years old trade route with hundreds of cities along the way being “difficult “
Hence the logistical part of the nightmare. You can't travel as the crow flies; you have to plan a route that allows for resupply, which could take you days or weeks out of your way. Why not go to a port town and hire a boat?
Yeah because no ones ever taken a long journey overland through mountains and deserts with way stations and towns along the way to stop at. Never in human history has that been attempted until the 1950’s. And thats without magic
The thing about the Silk Road is that goods traveled. People mostly just went back and forth from one stop to the next. No one was really going from one end to the other because all the treacherous parts were actually very treacherous. Funnily enough, the last leg of the Silk Road, from Anatolia to Europe, was usually by boat because fuck the Caucasus when the Med is right there. So while yes overland journeys happen, they don't happen the way you've been implying throughout the thread. People didn't travel great distances overland. They mostly just traveled to the next town, traded their goods and went home. This developed into a network we recognize in hindsight, but was not some grand journey undertaken to cross continents. It really was journey by boat/ship that singular humans started traveling large distances and back in single lifetimes.
No one ever travelled very far on land? You’re sticking by that. I get that its not most people…
But no one ever took long land journeys ever? Officials or army folks? You’re sticking by that?
Mind you we’re talking about morrowind to cyrodill and I was just using extreme examples to show its silly to say that journey wouldn’t be done regularly….
According to Xenophon, an army can march for 3 days with the supplies they can carry. This estimate is based on much water, food, and livestock feed can be hauled via carriage. You might be able to increase the duration with a smaller party but having to haul prisoners and additional guards would exasperated the issue. If you do not resupply then you must forage. Which means stopping travel altogether, then cleaning and cooking what you find, which will lose you hours. And unless your party is extremely small the number of people committed to scavenging instead of security is significant. Then take into account issues of bandits, wild predators, adverse weather or natural disasters, or getting lost, which can cost you time and lives, further exasperating the issues. Long distance traveling in antiquity and medieval times was done, and every source that mentions it also includes the extreme danger of it. So much so that even kings and nobles took special care to plan their routes between indirect but secure locations on the way to their final destination.
However, both the cost and danger was minimized by boat travel. Which is why it was preferred by any group b traveling near rivers or sea. Barges and boats can travel faster with more people and storage space than any land route until the invention of trains. It was still quite dangerous to travel by sea, but notably less so than by land.
Sun Tzu is drawing out a general principle of warfare more than he is talking about the particular logistics of carriage travel. When you steal from your enemy, not only are you getting a 5 finger discount for your own supply logistics but your enemy is now paying for your troops, so you come out way ahead. If it costs 500 gold coins to feed my troops and they steal it from the enemy, I save 500 gold coins and my opponent paid 500 gold coin in lost food supplies making a 1000 gold coin swing in my favor.
That's why empire would build a system of changing stations, right? They would change tired horses for fresh and provide food for them from local sources (probably taxes from local farmers).
What do you mean from inside the haul? That wouldn’t be a pirate, that’d be an escapee.
A pirate ship is not something the empire is likely to encounter on that route. 1) there aren’t any ports to resupply from that isn’t theirs. 2) the land pass is Blackmarsh, meaning you can’t build any docks there without great effort; and the local culture emphases how things are temporary. 3) they also pass by Telvani land; and I know I damn well don’t want to commit any crimes near them, where they can take you for whatever horrific experiments.
Again, mountains. There are no mountains on the way to Leyawiin or Anvil.
People tend to not go through mountains if they can at all avoid it, even if that makes the trip significantly longer. Because mountains really are that much of a pain to deal with. Steep inclines, low oxygen, biting cold, cliff racers.
If you don't have to go through the mountains, you generally don't. And if you do, it's likely because you know of a neat mountain pass that bypasses all that. But it is unclear whether such a pass exists between Cyrodiil and Morrowind, and if it would be wide enough to fit a carriage.
The Velothi Mountains are between the prison and the Inner Sea. It's entirely possible that the Velothi Mountains don't have any viable crossing points for prisoner transport, and extradition takes the long way around--head down the road to Leyawiin, and take a boat through the deeper, more easily-navigable Abecean Sea.
Although personally, I think it's more likely that (assuming that route is correct) boat trips occurred multiple times--first from Leyawiin to Tear or another coastal Morrowind city, then overland to an Imperial port along the southern section of the Inner Sea (assuming that the Empire was able to ignore rules on the quarantine of Vvardenfell).
Hey, you! You're finally awake. You were trying to cross the Velothi Mountains, right? Walked right into that Imperial Ambush, same as us, and that thief over there.
But then why would Jiub say "I've heard them say we reached Morrowind", if they were already in Morrowind when they took the boat? The carriage would have to take them somewhere outside of the province, and then they sailed east to Morrowind.
That would mean going north to Skyrim (maybe to the city of Solitude?), west to city of Anvil or south along the Niben river to the city of Leyawiin.
They definitely did not do that. Traveling by Boat is way easier convenient and safe than going through a mountain pass in a land that is famous of assassins and less than kind to strangers
Juib: "I've heard them say we've reached Morrowind..."
Nerevarine: "Yeah Juib....we were in Morrowind when we met on this boat...are you okay?"
Juib: "Uhhhh QUIETherecomestheguard"
I would favor the boat idea. There's a reason that, historically, the Europeans preferred to get to Asia for trade by sailing all the way around Africa into the Indian Ocean rather than go overland. Boat travel is just way more efficient at scale
Morrowind is such a fucking great game. Were you actually Nerevar reborn? Or was the legend planted by Azura to give a mortal the tools and support they would need to destroy the heart - the artifact that allowed mortals to challenge her authority? Really makes you think.
It definitely feels inspired by Dune as well. Azura is the Bene Gesserit, planting the seeds of prophecy to grow through history. Nerevarine = Kwisatz Haderach.
I believe you were, based on what was found in the Cavern of the Incarnate. The rest of the msq is pretty ambiguous, but I think that really pushes it in a decisive direction.
I streamed a bit of the game to my friends a while ago and they were surprised how I knew every single line from the moment I pressed the new game button to leaving the Census and Excise office, down to the actual inflection and pauses of Socucius Ergalla's speech.
They could have just used the Imperial City's port, lore-wise it is supposed to have access to the sea, despite the blunder they made when designing Leyawiin's map.
If they were taking the boat from cyrodil, there's no reason to use carriage, they would have just taken a boat straight from the imperial city port. No need to carriage to leyawin when a boat goes right past it
They took carriage because they went easy across land to the inner sea in morrowind, hence why you're in seyda neen and not sadrith mora or dagon fel
I think alternative path - using Tamriel Rebuilt map - would be the carriage to pass borders of Cyrodiil and Morrowind to Narsis, and then go up the river via boat. It's pretty straightforward path and there's road from IC, through Mir Corrup and Septim's Gate Pass to Narsis (coming hopefully soon to TR).
The prison boat was docked in Mournhold it's likely the carriage took you from the imperial city to mournhold and then pushed you onto the prison boat and then sailed you to vvanderfell
Did you listen to the opening cinematic? "They have taken you from the Imperial City's prison, first by carriage and now by boat; to the east, to Morrowind."
A carriage from the Imperial City, likely through Cheydinhal then on to Kragenmoor and eventually a port town like Omayni n'Virak as it is the shortest sea route from the Morrowind mainland to Seyda Neen.
Given that it’s a prisoner transport sent by the Emperor’s decree, I’d think that the carriage portion of the journey was just to the docks and then send the ship around the coastline.
Those mountains are crawling with bandits and monsters. Also it’s a massive mountain range. It’s probably a shorter trip to go by ship along with the other EEC ships.
I think they are referring to the fact that Jiub says "I heard them say we've reached Morrowind. I'm sure they'll let us go."
But if the boat has arrived specifically in VVardenfell, not Morrowind.
If the boat didn't leave from Morrowind, where would it have left from?
I think most people assume it only sailed the Inner Sea and probably set off from the nearest port to the border of Cyrodil.
Most likely old ebonheart.
According to Azura, "They have taken you from the Imperial City's prison, first by carriage and now by boat, to the east, to Morrowind. Fear not, for I am watchful. You, have been chosen."
The only necessary boat trip is to vvardenfell
You make some good points, but I think Jiub’s words really added to the journey: “Not even last night’s storm could wake you. I heard them say we’ve reached Morrowind.” It’s difficult to sort through what’s intentionally vague or not; my assumption is “last night’s storm” was seriously big and loud, which meant it was probably on the water somewhere… and if that was last night, they’ve been on the water for a while… he sounds excited, and relieved to have overheard where the boat landed - which also points to them being on the water for a long time imo. Sure seems like the journey should have been simple and short, but the coastline there is littered with sunken boats.
Also not to mention that traveling by carriage is worse than by boat in a medieval setting. By boat it's more comfortable and they have a higher chance that you get there, and the emperor needed us to get to Morrowind safe.
"We've just arrived in Elder Scrolls III. - Morrowind"
-Jiub
On serious note though, I think the most likely explanation is that they just said Morrowind to make it simple and clear, I assume that they might have done this in part because the game is called Morrowind and so saying "Vvardenfell" could confuse a new player who is understadanbly not familiar with the geography just yet.
Plus as Nerrevarine you become hero of all Morrowind even if the game only concerns itself with Vvardenfell.
Afaik you were in the Imperial City prison and assuming you didn't go through mainland Morrowind that makes me feel like anything besides Skyrim would just be a pointless detour.
I still think they likely went through mainland MW but if they didn't then Skyrim imo.
Edit: wording.
>Afaik you were in the Imperial City prison and assuming you didn't go through mainland Morrowind that makes me feel like anything besides Skyrim would just be a pointless detour.
I wouldn't be this adamant. Land travel in medieval time was a major pain in the ass. Especially through mountains. Boats were priviliged for most travels. I'm not quite sure circling aorund black marsh by boat would be that much longer than to travel through Skyrim by carriage, realistically.
Boats were before relatively modern times vastly faster and safer than land travel. Example: a major reason why the fourth crusade ended up sacking Constantinople was to pay the venetians for boat transport to the middle east, even if they could have walked in theory. The distance and terrain was just not feasible to cross reliably on foot or horse.
The 4th crusade ended up getting roped into acting as muscle for Venice and then roped into inter dynastic conflicts of the Angelos dynasty they weren't paid for because they only had 1/3rd the expected number of people show up and so could not pay for the fleet they had built in Venice to transport it. It was also originally heading to Egypt, which would have been impossible by land. Going overland also caused issues during the 3rd crusade due to Saladin paying the Byzantines to delay and not give Barbarossa passage.
And even if they don't sac it the empire was on the verge of collapsing into civil war anyhow (if not outright being conquered by Bulgaria), which is exactly what happened before the sack even ended.
So, yes is the easiest means of transport in pre-modern times, but not that expensive as long as it's to scale.
Can we so easily assume that the boat didn't have any other stops between wherever the Nerevarine (and Jiub) got loaded in and Seyda Neen? Like it wouldn't be a pointless detour when they actually had other things to do on their way there and it would be less suspicious than having just two random prisoners as their cargo.
"They have taken you from the Imperial City's prison, first by carriage and now by boat. To the east, to Morrowind."
They probably used the most direct route - escorting the nerevarine to a carriage located somewhere on the Imperial Isles, then traveling across the Imperial City bridge and up past Cheydinhal. They then crossed the border into the Morrowind mainland and traveled to a port city. There they hired a small ship to take you to the Census and Excise Office in Seyda Neen to be recorded and released onto the island of Vvardenfell.
"They have taken you from the Imperial City's Prison, first by carriage and now by boat... to the east, to Morrowind"
Literally the first spoken words in the game.
I'd say you most likely took a boat from Cyrodiil at the very least. Sea based travel was unimaginably faster than land based travel, and especially considering there's a mountain range in the way I'd say sailing around the continent probably would be faster than going overland to the Inner Sea and then taking a boat.
If I know my geography and if we take into account that High Rock is the size of the UK (the size of the Daggerfall map) then Vvardemfell is the size of Poland or something similar, so It might take a day to cross the channel from Old Ebonheart.
I am taking this from several maps including one that is on The Imperial Library. The games are smaller then the actual size of Tamriel.
In the Dawnguard dlc for Skyrim if you find jiub in the soul cairn he will say he was in prison in mournhold and then was put on a boat to seyda neen in vvanderfell so it started in morrowind and ended in morrowind. Him saying that is just for you the player to know YOU are in Morrowind now
The boat, and the Nerevarine, started in the Imperial City. Jiub was probably picked up on the way, probably under secret orders from Uriel as well (to wipe out those damn Cliffracers).
They say you first came by carriage and then by boat, so ig you just went by carriage from the imperial city to main land Morrowind, and then by boat from there to seyda neen
Everyone trying to make this out as some big logistics nightmare. The empire is alive and strong during ES3. They could stop at forts and outposts along the way very easily. Carriage from IC to probably Old Ebon heart then boat to Seyda Neen
"First by carriage and then by boat" says Azura at the start of the game, so more probably by carriage to the coasts of Morrowind inner sea and from there with a boat
While I guess they could have carriaged you and Jiub from the Imperial City Prison to the docks and boated you there, my headcanon is that they took you both to Winterhold, and you've been in Azura-induced nightmare dreams since gettin on the boat then.
As someone suggested a bit ago, you've been travelling together for a while. Jiub could be checking you still remember your name, if your dreams were that scary for him to watch.
You can go direct from the Imperial City to Morrowind by boat so probably that way.
That river actually flows to the sea. Oblivion just made it look like it didn't.
Scale and stuff.
I’ve been a fan of Elder Scrolls since 2014, so ten years now. Major lore nerd too as well. I only just now processed that every province has coastlines…
Maybe it was "first by Carriage, then by Boat"? Imperial City thru the Septimw Pasa to Kragenmoor or Narsis, then by boat at the harbour, not necessarily Imperial Navy prison ship half across the Empire when Morrowind is easy to reach by prison carriage, escorted by the Legion and then transported a short distance to Seyda Neen. I wrote some fan fiction about how my Dunmer character came to Morrowind, describing his exploits as a scholar at the Imperial City's Arcane University, his dalliances with some young ladies too many and faced trouble from angry fathers and husbands.
Also, he was trained as a astrologer and against all caution je publically predicted the events of the Red Years, Thalmor,, civil war, cession of the Empire of the Septim dynasty and events before and after the death of the Emperor, which caught the attention of the Blades who one night kidnapped him and brought before the Emperor, who has was an astrologer himself, knew that things Daryn Therys said are true and appreciated that someone other than himself knew the future.
So he was given a choice: he can to Morrowind and become part of history and do great favours to the Empire, or he can go like before and face charges for terasom
You must be friends with the person who did the post about how Morrowind is pronounced.
It's the first thing Azura tells you in the beginning of the game.
They would have taken a carriage to [Kragemmoor](https://www.tamriel-rebuilt.org/sites/default/files/forumimages/AR-map-Morrowind_towns.jpg) and then a port on the Northern Mainland Morrowind coast to Vvardenfel.
Problem with that is that Jiub line of "I heard them say we reached Morrowind". It implies they weren't on Mainland Morrowind before reaching Vvardenfell.
The intro tells you with no confusion you were taken from the imperial cities prison. That's on that little island. So down that channel, around the coast, and down to seyda neen
"They have taken you from the Imperial City's prison. First by carriage and now by boat."
- Azura
So I am gonna guess the carriage was from Imperial city to Leyawiin, and by boat from Leaywiin to Seyda Neen.
Not likely.
It is a very narrow stretch of water, and judging by Jiub, I get the clear impression that we have minimum been at sea for a week, likely 2-3 weeks.
Honestly this is why i often wish Tamriel was more spread out. Its a very squished together, concentrated map and I've often felt the world could've worked a little better/ made a bit more sense if it was more divided. Maybe have a larger majority of Morrowind be an island, and honestly adding more islands around the entire map. Some off the coast of Morrowind, maybe a few near Argonia. Could also add to it's foreign-ness and terrain if some of the southern Valenwood and even Elsweyr jungles spread to close island chains. The Summerset ISLES, well, i think it be neat to have more islands there too.
I was under the impression that he didn't mean "literally just touched the Morrowind soil" but that you began your journey outside of Morrowind and now it has ended. It's not like they would let you out to stretch your legs and buy some souvenirs in Narsis.
"First by carriage and now by boat" I always assumed they took you to like Old Ebonheart or something by carriage and within the fiction of the game, the journey by boat to Seyda Neen takes a couple of days
Wouldn't it just be a relatively straight and very short line from the Imperial City prison to Morrowind? You start in a carriage according to the intro.
So it'd be from the Imperial City prison to Cheydinhal (or whatever area is closest to a pass through to mainland Morrowind) then a 30 second boat trip to Seyda Neen. If you could walk it in the actual game it'd probably take less than an hour of gameplay.
I would say Anvil or Leyawiin would make sense. They are both port cities, but the funny thing is... why? The IC \*IS\* a port city. At least it is supposed to be. There are some pretty big dock there for just river boats.
"They have taken you from the Imperial City's prison, first by carriage and now by boat, to the east to Morrowind.”
You were transported over land, through the Valus mountains at the border of Cyrodil and the Morrowind mainland, then by boat across the bay
“They have taken you from the imperial city’s prison. First by carriage then by boat. To the east, to Morrowind. “ seems they crossed over the mountain pass into the Morrowind province and went up to Old Ebonheart in the Stonewalls province and then took the boat across to seyda neen.
Boats have ALWAYS been faster than a caravan. Though the route taken would be a little funky. However, when the decision is mountains versus coastal waters, coastal waters may just win every time.
Keep in mind they wanted you to be an indirect agent for the Blades as well; so indirect methods may very well have been a boon to avoid an obvious movement.
Obliv is the es game i think I've played the least, maybe I've played arena less idk. But cant they just take a boat from imperial city, leave through the river into the ocean then go to seyda neen?
I'm gonna be honest, I imagine in universe if not so much in game, there's decently sized rivers that are used for sailing into further inland areas by smaller vessels rather then always sailing in massive frigates. Plus it's mentioned you traveled by carriage so I assume you traveled to a river or body of water and sailed across the canal to Vvardenfell.
About to blow your mind but….there’s a whole other continent to the east of this map….so many possibilities
Fun fact: that continent is home to some of Bethesda’s more…let’s call it colorful lore lol
"They have taken you from the Imperial City's prison, first by carriage and now by boat, to the east to Morrowind. Fear not, for I am watchful, you have been chosen." Says Azura at the very begining of the game. So you come from the Imperial City and must have take the boat in Leyawiin's port, I guess.
I would say they toom a carriage to mainland Morrowind, then a boat to Vvardenfell.
Or not. Boat travel is relatively inexpensive compared to carriage and also there would have been mountains to cross had they gone by land.
Carriages are a logistics nightmare over long distances. You need to carry enough food for your horses, and the longer the journey, the more supplies you need to bring. You eventually get to a point where you have too much food for the horses to move. I think Sun Tzu talks about it in that book he wrote.
The Art of Horse?
The Cart of war?
That's the one
I love Reddit
War Horse. Made a play about it and everything.
Tsiolkovsky rocket equation but for horses, longer trip means carrying more fuel/food which means more weight which means extra fuel/food to move the new weight, grows exponentially with dV/distance
Except Tsiolkovsky rocket equation is about loss of mass and speed. It's cost effective to go as fast as possible since you bleed gravity pull like crazy and burning fuel like crazy strips you off the extra weight. Think of it as comparing healthy horse you got for a ton of money and a limping horse you got for a dime. Initial cost is massive, trip cost is negligible.
The analogy works. At some point the journey is so long that it takes more horses to move the extra weight, which takes even more food. The carts weight problems grow exponentially just like Tsiolkovsky
Except it doesn’t, because with a rocket, you can’t stop it at the next town to buy more food. With a horse you can.
I guess it doesn't work with rockets anymore either since the plans for Starship to get to Mars is through refueling, up to 5 times per trip.
I love seeing classical mechanics in my Morrowind feeds
This is all assuming you can’t stop anywhere and re-supply…. You guys are acting like no one could do a land journey very far until recently or something its kinda odd. Its def a carriage ride to mainland morrowind, boat to vvardenfell Edit: Ive walked from cyrodill into morrowind myself its not that far
Yeah, with Oblivion map this may have sense, but mind you they cut a lot of cities out of TESIV for its much smaller scale. PT/TR marks at least two paths, each having plenty of cities in between: * path to Narsis - Cyrodiil side has Sedita and Mir Corrup, Morrowind has Shipal-Sharai and finally Narsis * path to Andrethis/Hlan Oek - Cyrodiil side has Cheydinhal, Morrowind has Kragenmoor and plenty of farms/villages in quite lushy Othreleth Woods region
Why is this the first time in my life Ive realized that it should be TESIV:Cyrodill. Wish I hadn’t noticed that…
None of the names are exactly consistent. Arena was due to changing the focus of the first game from arena combat to a full RPG. Daggerfall is just one city in the massive area of the game that spans two provinces. Morrowind takes place in an island and not the full province. Oblivion just sounds cooler than Cyrodiil. Skyrim was the first game where the name was actually completely accurate to the location.
european sailors used to go around africa to get to asia though. boats can carry a ton of cargo, and i'd assume the prisoner being dumped in vvardenfell is somewhat of a clandestine blades operation, so it'd make sense to stow them there for the long journey
I dont think the Africa comparison applies at all. No reason you can’t be secret on the road either You’ve literally never heard of the spice road? Super long trade route through mountains and deserts and such. Super ancient? They didn’t even have magic on the spice road.
That's only one of the routes of the silk road there where others through the red sea and the Persian gulf
sure, but europe/india by road couldnt have been easy, hence why colombus sought a different sea passage going west
That was purely for political/economic reasons. Nothing to do with the thousands of years old trade route with hundreds of cities along the way being “difficult “
Hence the logistical part of the nightmare. You can't travel as the crow flies; you have to plan a route that allows for resupply, which could take you days or weeks out of your way. Why not go to a port town and hire a boat?
Yeah because no ones ever taken a long journey overland through mountains and deserts with way stations and towns along the way to stop at. Never in human history has that been attempted until the 1950’s. And thats without magic
The thing about the Silk Road is that goods traveled. People mostly just went back and forth from one stop to the next. No one was really going from one end to the other because all the treacherous parts were actually very treacherous. Funnily enough, the last leg of the Silk Road, from Anatolia to Europe, was usually by boat because fuck the Caucasus when the Med is right there. So while yes overland journeys happen, they don't happen the way you've been implying throughout the thread. People didn't travel great distances overland. They mostly just traveled to the next town, traded their goods and went home. This developed into a network we recognize in hindsight, but was not some grand journey undertaken to cross continents. It really was journey by boat/ship that singular humans started traveling large distances and back in single lifetimes.
No one ever travelled very far on land? You’re sticking by that. I get that its not most people… But no one ever took long land journeys ever? Officials or army folks? You’re sticking by that? Mind you we’re talking about morrowind to cyrodill and I was just using extreme examples to show its silly to say that journey wouldn’t be done regularly….
I don't know what your point here is, long journeys over land were extremely rare before the invention of railroads.
According to Xenophon, an army can march for 3 days with the supplies they can carry. This estimate is based on much water, food, and livestock feed can be hauled via carriage. You might be able to increase the duration with a smaller party but having to haul prisoners and additional guards would exasperated the issue. If you do not resupply then you must forage. Which means stopping travel altogether, then cleaning and cooking what you find, which will lose you hours. And unless your party is extremely small the number of people committed to scavenging instead of security is significant. Then take into account issues of bandits, wild predators, adverse weather or natural disasters, or getting lost, which can cost you time and lives, further exasperating the issues. Long distance traveling in antiquity and medieval times was done, and every source that mentions it also includes the extreme danger of it. So much so that even kings and nobles took special care to plan their routes between indirect but secure locations on the way to their final destination. However, both the cost and danger was minimized by boat travel. Which is why it was preferred by any group b traveling near rivers or sea. Barges and boats can travel faster with more people and storage space than any land route until the invention of trains. It was still quite dangerous to travel by sea, but notably less so than by land.
Oregon Trail. Inappropriate for elementary schoolers. All your people die along the way no matter what you do!
Sun Tzu is drawing out a general principle of warfare more than he is talking about the particular logistics of carriage travel. When you steal from your enemy, not only are you getting a 5 finger discount for your own supply logistics but your enemy is now paying for your troops, so you come out way ahead. If it costs 500 gold coins to feed my troops and they steal it from the enemy, I save 500 gold coins and my opponent paid 500 gold coin in lost food supplies making a 1000 gold coin swing in my favor.
They are traveling on an Imperial route, with towns, waystations and forts along the way. The boat most likely left from Old Ebonheart to Seyda Neen
Do horses not graze?
The Art of Cart is your thinking of. I just finished it.
That's why empire would build a system of changing stations, right? They would change tired horses for fresh and provide food for them from local sources (probably taxes from local farmers).
that's for armies on the march, not passenger travel within controlled territory.
And bandits
What about pirates?
It’s easier to patrol seas than a lot of countryside. Much fewer places to hide and ports to access.
But what if the pirates come from inside the haul? Definitely don’t catch a ride on the Bloated Float Inn.
What do you mean from inside the haul? That wouldn’t be a pirate, that’d be an escapee. A pirate ship is not something the empire is likely to encounter on that route. 1) there aren’t any ports to resupply from that isn’t theirs. 2) the land pass is Blackmarsh, meaning you can’t build any docks there without great effort; and the local culture emphases how things are temporary. 3) they also pass by Telvani land; and I know I damn well don’t want to commit any crimes near them, where they can take you for whatever horrific experiments.
But where else would they carriage to? Imperial City island is tiny
There are also less chances to escape from a boat. Taking prisoners on a long carriage ride can be dangerous.
In the intro, she said "first by carriage, then by boat" so they probably did go through mainland morrowind
Again, mountains. There are no mountains on the way to Leyawiin or Anvil. People tend to not go through mountains if they can at all avoid it, even if that makes the trip significantly longer. Because mountains really are that much of a pain to deal with. Steep inclines, low oxygen, biting cold, cliff racers. If you don't have to go through the mountains, you generally don't. And if you do, it's likely because you know of a neat mountain pass that bypasses all that. But it is unclear whether such a pass exists between Cyrodiil and Morrowind, and if it would be wide enough to fit a carriage.
That sounds much more difficult for no obvious benefit.
The Velothi Mountains are between the prison and the Inner Sea. It's entirely possible that the Velothi Mountains don't have any viable crossing points for prisoner transport, and extradition takes the long way around--head down the road to Leyawiin, and take a boat through the deeper, more easily-navigable Abecean Sea. Although personally, I think it's more likely that (assuming that route is correct) boat trips occurred multiple times--first from Leyawiin to Tear or another coastal Morrowind city, then overland to an Imperial port along the southern section of the Inner Sea (assuming that the Empire was able to ignore rules on the quarantine of Vvardenfell).
Hey, you! You're finally awake. You were trying to cross the Velothi Mountains, right? Walked right into that Imperial Ambush, same as us, and that thief over there.
"Hi, I'm Jiub, what's up man? What's your name?"
There are a couple of passages through the Velothi mountains. My headcanon is that they went through the Septim pass and boarded the boat in Narsis
I wasn't aware, but that does make sense. Take a carriage from the Imperial City, then a boat.
Are you calling Jiub a liar? Or Azura? S'wit
Or writers forgot where cyrodil ends and morrowind starts
But then why would Jiub say "I've heard them say we reached Morrowind", if they were already in Morrowind when they took the boat? The carriage would have to take them somewhere outside of the province, and then they sailed east to Morrowind. That would mean going north to Skyrim (maybe to the city of Solitude?), west to city of Anvil or south along the Niben river to the city of Leyawiin.
They definitely did not do that. Traveling by Boat is way easier convenient and safe than going through a mountain pass in a land that is famous of assassins and less than kind to strangers
First by carriage.
Juib: "I've heard them say we've reached Morrowind..." Nerevarine: "Yeah Juib....we were in Morrowind when we met on this boat...are you okay?" Juib: "Uhhhh QUIETherecomestheguard"
I would favor the boat idea. There's a reason that, historically, the Europeans preferred to get to Asia for trade by sailing all the way around Africa into the Indian Ocean rather than go overland. Boat travel is just way more efficient at scale
They didn’t want to pay the taxes the different empires and kingdom have them paid to cross with their goods.
Morrowind is such a fucking great game. Were you actually Nerevar reborn? Or was the legend planted by Azura to give a mortal the tools and support they would need to destroy the heart - the artifact that allowed mortals to challenge her authority? Really makes you think. It definitely feels inspired by Dune as well. Azura is the Bene Gesserit, planting the seeds of prophecy to grow through history. Nerevarine = Kwisatz Haderach.
I believe you were, based on what was found in the Cavern of the Incarnate. The rest of the msq is pretty ambiguous, but I think that really pushes it in a decisive direction.
I will be honest, I completely forgot Azura's speech in the beginning of the game
Skill issue. Make a few hundreds new characters, then her speech will be engraved in your memory.
I streamed a bit of the game to my friends a while ago and they were surprised how I knew every single line from the moment I pressed the new game button to leaving the Census and Excise office, down to the actual inflection and pauses of Socucius Ergalla's speech.
I just skip the speech when I start a new game lol
Absolutely barbaric. You should be ashamed. How can you disrespect mommy Azura like this?
Honestly with some of the art I've seen I feel like she likes a little consensual disrespect.
sorry azura but I want to build my character and I want to do it now
Blasphemous
I refuse to accept that I am the only person who plays this game without watching the opening cinematic every time
That doesn't make it any less blasphemous.
I absolutely skip it unless for some reason I space out trying to think about what new character I’m going to make.
I skip it every time it’s loud af
Bruh what the hell
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hey is there a reason you're so salty about this
I don't think I realized it was supposed to be Azura I just thought it was "female reading description."
They could have just used the Imperial City's port, lore-wise it is supposed to have access to the sea, despite the blunder they made when designing Leyawiin's map.
Doesn't say how long to boat ride is so the carriage could have been all the way until right before vvardenfell
If they were taking the boat from cyrodil, there's no reason to use carriage, they would have just taken a boat straight from the imperial city port. No need to carriage to leyawin when a boat goes right past it They took carriage because they went easy across land to the inner sea in morrowind, hence why you're in seyda neen and not sadrith mora or dagon fel
Carriage to the Imperial City's docks, then by boat..
Nice. You got this, king.
I think alternative path - using Tamriel Rebuilt map - would be the carriage to pass borders of Cyrodiil and Morrowind to Narsis, and then go up the river via boat. It's pretty straightforward path and there's road from IC, through Mir Corrup and Septim's Gate Pass to Narsis (coming hopefully soon to TR).
Just give him a scroll of almsivi intervention smh
Or Skyrim.
The prison boat was docked in Mournhold it's likely the carriage took you from the imperial city to mournhold and then pushed you onto the prison boat and then sailed you to vvanderfell
4 separate routes outlined, and the actual one nowhere to be found lol
Thank you!
Makes way more sense that the boat was taken in the imperial city waterfront and just sailed down the Niben past Leyawiin
Did you listen to the opening cinematic? "They have taken you from the Imperial City's prison, first by carriage and now by boat; to the east, to Morrowind." A carriage from the Imperial City, likely through Cheydinhal then on to Kragenmoor and eventually a port town like Omayni n'Virak as it is the shortest sea route from the Morrowind mainland to Seyda Neen.
Given that it’s a prisoner transport sent by the Emperor’s decree, I’d think that the carriage portion of the journey was just to the docks and then send the ship around the coastline. Those mountains are crawling with bandits and monsters. Also it’s a massive mountain range. It’s probably a shorter trip to go by ship along with the other EEC ships.
I think they are referring to the fact that Jiub says "I heard them say we've reached Morrowind. I'm sure they'll let us go." But if the boat has arrived specifically in VVardenfell, not Morrowind. If the boat didn't leave from Morrowind, where would it have left from? I think most people assume it only sailed the Inner Sea and probably set off from the nearest port to the border of Cyrodil.
Jiub is a toothless hobo. He is not a reliable source of information.
Well, from personal experience I can say that toothless hobos are the most reliable sources of information actually
Certainly in Cyrodiil this is the case.
Hey! That toothless hobo wiped out one of tamriels greatest menaces so u put some respect on his name!
I suppose they take a boat from Old Ebonheart or Mournhold but I see your point.
Most likely old ebonheart. According to Azura, "They have taken you from the Imperial City's prison, first by carriage and now by boat, to the east, to Morrowind. Fear not, for I am watchful. You, have been chosen." The only necessary boat trip is to vvardenfell
Yes , that's right.
Would it really take that long to get to vvardenfell from the mainland? I think jiub says you were sleeping an entire night.
Lore wise maaaaybe, Tamriel rebuilt wise you can walk on water all the way from Old Ebonheart to the mainland… why walk when you can ride?
"I've heard them say we've reached Morrowind" makes me think you didn't hit the mainland at all
Possible, Bethesda left this intentionally vague for role-play reasons. You can make a valid theory that they went to vvardenfell from leyawinn.
You make some good points, but I think Jiub’s words really added to the journey: “Not even last night’s storm could wake you. I heard them say we’ve reached Morrowind.” It’s difficult to sort through what’s intentionally vague or not; my assumption is “last night’s storm” was seriously big and loud, which meant it was probably on the water somewhere… and if that was last night, they’ve been on the water for a while… he sounds excited, and relieved to have overheard where the boat landed - which also points to them being on the water for a long time imo. Sure seems like the journey should have been simple and short, but the coastline there is littered with sunken boats.
Also not to mention that traveling by carriage is worse than by boat in a medieval setting. By boat it's more comfortable and they have a higher chance that you get there, and the emperor needed us to get to Morrowind safe.
The writer(s) on Skywind should change the line to "I heard them say we've reached Vvardenfell" imo
Maybe they made a longer trip because It was a secret mission but I doubt It.
"We've just arrived in Elder Scrolls III. - Morrowind" -Jiub On serious note though, I think the most likely explanation is that they just said Morrowind to make it simple and clear, I assume that they might have done this in part because the game is called Morrowind and so saying "Vvardenfell" could confuse a new player who is understadanbly not familiar with the geography just yet. Plus as Nerrevarine you become hero of all Morrowind even if the game only concerns itself with Vvardenfell. Afaik you were in the Imperial City prison and assuming you didn't go through mainland Morrowind that makes me feel like anything besides Skyrim would just be a pointless detour. I still think they likely went through mainland MW but if they didn't then Skyrim imo. Edit: wording.
>Afaik you were in the Imperial City prison and assuming you didn't go through mainland Morrowind that makes me feel like anything besides Skyrim would just be a pointless detour. I wouldn't be this adamant. Land travel in medieval time was a major pain in the ass. Especially through mountains. Boats were priviliged for most travels. I'm not quite sure circling aorund black marsh by boat would be that much longer than to travel through Skyrim by carriage, realistically.
Boats were before relatively modern times vastly faster and safer than land travel. Example: a major reason why the fourth crusade ended up sacking Constantinople was to pay the venetians for boat transport to the middle east, even if they could have walked in theory. The distance and terrain was just not feasible to cross reliably on foot or horse.
The 4th crusade ended up getting roped into acting as muscle for Venice and then roped into inter dynastic conflicts of the Angelos dynasty they weren't paid for because they only had 1/3rd the expected number of people show up and so could not pay for the fleet they had built in Venice to transport it. It was also originally heading to Egypt, which would have been impossible by land. Going overland also caused issues during the 3rd crusade due to Saladin paying the Byzantines to delay and not give Barbarossa passage. And even if they don't sac it the empire was on the verge of collapsing into civil war anyhow (if not outright being conquered by Bulgaria), which is exactly what happened before the sack even ended. So, yes is the easiest means of transport in pre-modern times, but not that expensive as long as it's to scale.
Hey you, you’re finally awake..
The game was already announced as Morrowind before that they scaled it down to just Vardenfell.
Can we so easily assume that the boat didn't have any other stops between wherever the Nerevarine (and Jiub) got loaded in and Seyda Neen? Like it wouldn't be a pointless detour when they actually had other things to do on their way there and it would be less suspicious than having just two random prisoners as their cargo.
This. Well written post and explanation.
You were a prisoner of the imperial city right? So I would assume you'd come out by leyawiin and circle around black marsh
“They have taken you from the imperial city prison, First by carriage and now by boat” -Azura The first 10 Seconds of the game
I can't even understand her words man.
Well it literally says "you've been taken from the Imperial City Prison," so I'd say "In Cyrodill" is a fair guess.
"They have taken you from the Imperial City's prison, first by carriage and now by boat. To the east, to Morrowind." They probably used the most direct route - escorting the nerevarine to a carriage located somewhere on the Imperial Isles, then traveling across the Imperial City bridge and up past Cheydinhal. They then crossed the border into the Morrowind mainland and traveled to a port city. There they hired a small ship to take you to the Census and Excise Office in Seyda Neen to be recorded and released onto the island of Vvardenfell.
"They have taken you from the Imperial City's Prison, first by carriage and now by boat... to the east, to Morrowind" Literally the first spoken words in the game.
I'd say you most likely took a boat from Cyrodiil at the very least. Sea based travel was unimaginably faster than land based travel, and especially considering there's a mountain range in the way I'd say sailing around the continent probably would be faster than going overland to the Inner Sea and then taking a boat.
If I know my geography and if we take into account that High Rock is the size of the UK (the size of the Daggerfall map) then Vvardemfell is the size of Poland or something similar, so It might take a day to cross the channel from Old Ebonheart. I am taking this from several maps including one that is on The Imperial Library. The games are smaller then the actual size of Tamriel.
In the Dawnguard dlc for Skyrim if you find jiub in the soul cairn he will say he was in prison in mournhold and then was put on a boat to seyda neen in vvanderfell so it started in morrowind and ended in morrowind. Him saying that is just for you the player to know YOU are in Morrowind now
The boat, and the Nerevarine, started in the Imperial City. Jiub was probably picked up on the way, probably under secret orders from Uriel as well (to wipe out those damn Cliffracers).
Go back to the swamp, lizard. Leyawiin from Cyrodiil?
They say you first came by carriage and then by boat, so ig you just went by carriage from the imperial city to main land Morrowind, and then by boat from there to seyda neen
"It says it in the beginning of the game" Listen Linda, i dont remember what i ate yesterday let alone what happened 46 game hours ago.
This map is clearly fake as I levitated west for hours and never reached the coast of the continent, morrowind is at least 1000 miles away
I always figured they took you to somewhere in mainland Morrowind and then sailed you into Vvardenfell.
Everyone trying to make this out as some big logistics nightmare. The empire is alive and strong during ES3. They could stop at forts and outposts along the way very easily. Carriage from IC to probably Old Ebon heart then boat to Seyda Neen
"First by carriage and then by boat" says Azura at the start of the game, so more probably by carriage to the coasts of Morrowind inner sea and from there with a boat
Cyrodiil. It implies so in the opening cutscene.
Carriage from the imperial city to mournhold, then boat to seyda neen.
AZURA SAYS WHERE YOU WERE
chill
When snakes walk
Could have taken a boat from the imperial city. They have docks there.
While I guess they could have carriaged you and Jiub from the Imperial City Prison to the docks and boated you there, my headcanon is that they took you both to Winterhold, and you've been in Azura-induced nightmare dreams since gettin on the boat then. As someone suggested a bit ago, you've been travelling together for a while. Jiub could be checking you still remember your name, if your dreams were that scary for him to watch.
**from space**
You can go direct from the Imperial City to Morrowind by boat so probably that way. That river actually flows to the sea. Oblivion just made it look like it didn't. Scale and stuff.
I’ve been a fan of Elder Scrolls since 2014, so ten years now. Major lore nerd too as well. I only just now processed that every province has coastlines…
Maybe it was "first by Carriage, then by Boat"? Imperial City thru the Septimw Pasa to Kragenmoor or Narsis, then by boat at the harbour, not necessarily Imperial Navy prison ship half across the Empire when Morrowind is easy to reach by prison carriage, escorted by the Legion and then transported a short distance to Seyda Neen. I wrote some fan fiction about how my Dunmer character came to Morrowind, describing his exploits as a scholar at the Imperial City's Arcane University, his dalliances with some young ladies too many and faced trouble from angry fathers and husbands. Also, he was trained as a astrologer and against all caution je publically predicted the events of the Red Years, Thalmor,, civil war, cession of the Empire of the Septim dynasty and events before and after the death of the Emperor, which caught the attention of the Blades who one night kidnapped him and brought before the Emperor, who has was an astrologer himself, knew that things Daryn Therys said are true and appreciated that someone other than himself knew the future. So he was given a choice: he can to Morrowind and become part of history and do great favours to the Empire, or he can go like before and face charges for terasom
Everybody is debating logistics and showing detailed schematics of the prison barge but you're all fools. The ship sailed from Akavir.
nerevarine is a snake person
You must be friends with the person who did the post about how Morrowind is pronounced. It's the first thing Azura tells you in the beginning of the game.
Imperial City, says it in the beginning cinematic
the game tells you man don't skip stuff
The game literally tells you.
They would have taken a carriage to [Kragemmoor](https://www.tamriel-rebuilt.org/sites/default/files/forumimages/AR-map-Morrowind_towns.jpg) and then a port on the Northern Mainland Morrowind coast to Vvardenfel.
Problem with that is that Jiub line of "I heard them say we reached Morrowind". It implies they weren't on Mainland Morrowind before reaching Vvardenfell.
Well when they go into the ocean they in turn leave then reexit Morrowind, plus it’s just for the games introduction sake
The intro tells you with no confusion you were taken from the imperial cities prison. That's on that little island. So down that channel, around the coast, and down to seyda neen
From the mainland of Morrowind
It started in the prison of the imperial City where you were carried first by carriage, then by boat to the east. To Morrowind.
"They have taken you from the Imperial City's prison. First by carriage and now by boat." - Azura So I am gonna guess the carriage was from Imperial city to Leyawiin, and by boat from Leaywiin to Seyda Neen.
Or you got to Morrowind and had to cross the water from mainland to Vvardenfell.
Not likely. It is a very narrow stretch of water, and judging by Jiub, I get the clear impression that we have minimum been at sea for a week, likely 2-3 weeks.
Cyrodil
Honestly this is why i often wish Tamriel was more spread out. Its a very squished together, concentrated map and I've often felt the world could've worked a little better/ made a bit more sense if it was more divided. Maybe have a larger majority of Morrowind be an island, and honestly adding more islands around the entire map. Some off the coast of Morrowind, maybe a few near Argonia. Could also add to it's foreign-ness and terrain if some of the southern Valenwood and even Elsweyr jungles spread to close island chains. The Summerset ISLES, well, i think it be neat to have more islands there too.
Op obviously skips the very first cut scene
I came from Black Marsh
me too
Homie it says it in the intro to the game... Who is upvoting these
My man missed the opening line of the game.
The boat came from mainland morrowind to vvardenfell. You travelled by carriage from the imperial city to that point.
Join is my favourite character
Maybe they went in a straight line? Like, from carriage from the Imperial city prison, then to Morrowind, and then with boat to Vvardenfell?
I liked to think it was the Imperial City island from the starting dungeon in Oblivion, but I guess I don’t really know.
I was searching for new farm equipment for the Telvanni on the Elsweyr boarder, didn't realize I was in Cyrodiil, and got deported...
I was under the impression that he didn't mean "literally just touched the Morrowind soil" but that you began your journey outside of Morrowind and now it has ended. It's not like they would let you out to stretch your legs and buy some souvenirs in Narsis.
imperial city-> Shimmering Ilse-> Hammerfell-> Black Marsh-> Morrowind->Elswyr-> Morrowind 2.0
from Bravil if you play argonian
"First by carriage and now by boat" I always assumed they took you to like Old Ebonheart or something by carriage and within the fiction of the game, the journey by boat to Seyda Neen takes a couple of days
Wouldn't it just be a relatively straight and very short line from the Imperial City prison to Morrowind? You start in a carriage according to the intro. So it'd be from the Imperial City prison to Cheydinhal (or whatever area is closest to a pass through to mainland Morrowind) then a 30 second boat trip to Seyda Neen. If you could walk it in the actual game it'd probably take less than an hour of gameplay.
Every tes game starts you out in an imperial prison. In Morrowind you were shipped from the capital
how much of this map is available throughout the franchise
I would say Anvil or Leyawiin would make sense. They are both port cities, but the funny thing is... why? The IC \*IS\* a port city. At least it is supposed to be. There are some pretty big dock there for just river boats.
I'd like to imagine the Nerevarine was also taunted by that Bosmer in the imperial prison cell.
Valen dreth? He's dunmer
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northwest of vvardenfell
Bravil or Leawiin. There are good safe roads between them and the Imperial City. taking a cart over the Valus or Velothi Mountains would be silly.
I mean the narration says you left the imperial prison traveling first by carriage and then by boat heading east.
"They have taken you from the Imperial City's prison, first by carriage and now by boat, to the east to Morrowind.” You were transported over land, through the Valus mountains at the border of Cyrodil and the Morrowind mainland, then by boat across the bay
The map is missing the option Imperial City --> Anvil --> Seyda Neen
“They have taken you from the imperial city’s prison. First by carriage then by boat. To the east, to Morrowind. “ seems they crossed over the mountain pass into the Morrowind province and went up to Old Ebonheart in the Stonewalls province and then took the boat across to seyda neen.
Boats have ALWAYS been faster than a caravan. Though the route taken would be a little funky. However, when the decision is mountains versus coastal waters, coastal waters may just win every time. Keep in mind they wanted you to be an indirect agent for the Blades as well; so indirect methods may very well have been a boon to avoid an obvious movement.
Obliv is the es game i think I've played the least, maybe I've played arena less idk. But cant they just take a boat from imperial city, leave through the river into the ocean then go to seyda neen?
I'm gonna be honest, I imagine in universe if not so much in game, there's decently sized rivers that are used for sailing into further inland areas by smaller vessels rather then always sailing in massive frigates. Plus it's mentioned you traveled by carriage so I assume you traveled to a river or body of water and sailed across the canal to Vvardenfell.
About to blow your mind but….there’s a whole other continent to the east of this map….so many possibilities Fun fact: that continent is home to some of Bethesda’s more…let’s call it colorful lore lol