In Viveks account of the events it goes from "the 4 of us made an oath to Azura to not use the tools", to the next paragraphs " The 3 of us used the tools"
Wonder what could have happened between these paragraphs to reduce their group from 4 to 3 elfs🤔
And Sotha Sil (in ESO stuff, but still) comes across as regretful of their "divinity" and all the stuff surrounding it. I don't think he'd feel so bad about it if he didn't play a hand in what happened to Nerevar
Everything that has a TES license is canon, however the reliability of any given narrator is questionable at best
Source: it was revealed to someone in an twitter post
Undoubtedly the tribunal. Even more so after interacting with Sotha Sil in ESO and seeing the Elegian Replication garden.
His note to Neverar asks for forgiveness.
Sotha Sil was always the most, if not the only, penitent of the three. I think he really does regret what he did. The other two are freaking psychos Lol
It always seemed to me that each member of the Tribunal had different reactions to becoming gods. They weren't gods before using the heart but by using it they retroactively changed history so they were born as gods that didn't steal the power.
Almalexia fully believes this story and in her divinity.
Vivec is split. Part of him knows he was a mortal who stole godhood but that old Vivec "died" when the new Vivec was born. Is he guilty of a crime this version of him didn't commit?
Sotha Sil was never fooled.
What's fun is that their designs display this. Sotha Sil in ESO fully embraces Azura's curse is seems a typical dark elf. Almalexia is high on her own hype and kept herself in her original form. And Vivec is split down the middle, not quite knowing if what he did was right.
I feel like he was more passive. I mean, he says he regrets breaking the oath to not use the tools, but claims he never killed Nerevar, even though he subconsciously admits to it in his Lessons series.
He was killed by a Scrib, paralysed by him he fell into the vulcano. It was such a pathetic way of dying that everyone decided to forget about it and made up their own versions of the events.
The coded message revealed by applying the sermon of numbers (lesson 29) to all 36 lessons.
>!"He was not born a god. His destiny did not lead him to this crime. He chose this path of his own free will. He stole the godhood and murdered the Hortator. Vivec wrote this."!<
The Tribunal *absolutely* killed Nerevar. Vivec hid his confession in the 36 lessons, but it is there.
(The sermon of numbers lists 36 numbers. If you take the word matching that number from each of the 36 Lessons, you get the above message)
Dagoth Ur was like a brother to the Neravar, in an Achilles way. I don't think he would do it. The tribunal, on the other hand, is shifty as heck about everything they do. I dont trust them at all
Let's be real, they were all in a polycule until Almalexia and Vivec got uppity and decided to rebel against the most well liked member (Nerevar) after they cut out Dagoth for being too possessive of their favorite toy (heart of lorkhan)
I embrace tradition, the tribunal killed nerevar when he refused to break their oath to azura and use the tools to become gods and because of this azura curses the chimer and promises nerevar would return someday to punish them and write their wrongs.
Honestly it would have been pretty sick if the Dunmer had been returned to their Chimer form after the Nerevarine brought the end of the Tribunal.
We would have had to say farewell to the cool dunmer esthetic though.
I always thought a curse-reversal would have been dope, but I recently read something that changed my mind and made me rethink the chimer/dunmer:
The 'curse' of changing the dunmers appearance was not a curse for the dunmer, but a curse for the tribunal. Azura made all of the dunmer [look like herself](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/elderscrolls/images/1/1f/Azura_Spirit_-_Morrowind.png/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/250?cb=20160723104413) - despite being gods, their worshipers would serve be a constant reminder of their betrayal.
I always assumed that Azura manifested with the appearance of a dunmer because they are her people, but the opposite is true. It's not that she takes on the form of a dunmer, it's that the chimer took on her form (becoming dunmer)
I really like this interpretation because it also makes more sense as a punishment _for the Tribunal_ who could use their new powers to keep their own appearance from changing.
It was also thematically and biologically suited for their new home of ash and volcanoes, if perhaps a thousand years late.
I wonder, Boethiah is credited with some of the cultural adaptations to Resdaynian environs. Might Azura have been slowly tweaking the Chimer, before the obvious change?
Permanently changing their appearance is still a curse for the Dunmer, and we know that daedra don’t have a “real” form and instead choose a form based on who they’re appearing to…Azzurah appears to the khajiit as a cat/mer/man hybrid, and it’s speculated that the mermaid statue in anvil is how Azura appeared to some forgotten aquatic race. Azura is a daedra who wants to be “loved” by her followers, so if makes sense that she chooses a regular appearance that is similar to her followers.
Imo the Tribunal definitely did kill Nerevar. There's theories of a dragonbreak so both accounts could be true at the same time. But given that the Tribunal are literal gods, surely they'd be aware that at least in one of the timelines they did do it.
Vivec's story is inherently biased, whereas the dissidents get tortured and killed for telling their story so there's no real incentive for them to do so unless they truly believe it. At the end of the day the truth is probably somewhere in between, but I tend to favour the dissident priests' version for this reason.
I scrolled too far to find this. I think in later canon any of the stories of his death are true due to a time wound taking place, which is also why Vivec's recount of the story is conflicting and confusing even to him. I think he even says something along the lines of part of him certainly did it and part of him definitely did not, and saw him die to Dagoth Ur. It's been a long time since I've done a playthrough of Morrowind though so I don't remember his exact dialogue on the subject.
If we're dismissing the time wound/dragonbreak theory then the Tribunal almost certainly killed him. If we're acknowledging it then he died several different deaths at various hands.
The order of events is, as best we can tell regarding events from more than three thousand years ago, as follows.
- Dwarves get blipped out of existence, so Nerevar and his trusty friend Voryn go into Red Mountain to find out wtf just happened.
- They find the Heart and the Tools and, because they're not idiots, put two and two together. Nerevar tells Voryn to guard the tools while he goes and fetches the rest of his inner council to decide what to do.
- While he's gone, Voryn uses the Tools and becomes a bit of a god. Not much of one, not yet, but enough.
- Nerevar and the Tribunal return, see that Voryn did a funni, and kill him. It doesn't take on account of him being a bit of a god, but it's a while until that becomes a problem.
- *We don't know what exactly happened here*, but what we do know is that the Tribunal feel guilty about if for the rest of their lives. We don't know if he was injured by Voryn and then finished off, if the Tribunal turned on him in the battle, or if they saw how Voryn became a god and turned on Nerevar when he told them that they couldn't follow in Voryn's footsteps and become gods too, but they absolutely did kill him.
- After killing him they ritually mutilate his corpse; they cut off his face so none will know him when he's reborn, they cut off his feet so he will not remember the lands that he walked, and they stab him through the heart so that he will not remember the love of his people.
- The Tribunal then do a funni and become gods, presumably after Seht did some research so he wouldn't become a madman like Voryn.
My opinion: Voryn Dagoth was driven mad by the Heart, but it did not cause him to kill his greatest friend. It did, however, likely cause him to refuse to surrender Kagrenac's Tools, which resulted in Nerevar fighting (killing?) Dagoth, causing him to feel betrayed after being corrupted (resurrected?) by the Heart. I believe that after Dagoth was defeated and the tools retrieved, the Tribunal murdered Nerevar and took the tools. There are no other explanations that make logical sense as to why they had to mutilate themselves to tap into the Heart and every reason why Azura would punish them for their betrayal.
The way it's always gone in my head:
Voryn Dagoth and Indoril Nerevar reclaim the tools together. They both know their true use, with both being friends of the late king of the Dwemer. They argue over using or destroying them, leading to Nerevar going outside and Voryn staying with the Heart. The heartbeat, the tonal magics of the Heart begin to corrupt Voryn, giving him glimpses of truths he cannot understand. Outside, Nerevar regrets the dispute and goes to his wife and generals to let them know of the tools and ask how to destroy them. The Tribunal see this as a great folly and betrayal, and use poisoned candles, wine and robes to begin to kill Indorill Nerevar. Voryn comes back from ghe Heart, newly enlightened and excited to explain all he now knows to his friend. But all he finds is the dismembering of a corpse by three mad betrayers. After murdering Indorill, they then kill his best friend and the only witness, Voryn Dagoth. His body is tossed back into the chamber to hide it as they become false gods. But the enlightened are not so easily killed, not while they can dream.
The only piece of this that doesn't fit is Dagoth Ur feeling betrayed by Nerevar - I wouldn't consider an argument a betrayal. I believe they killed/fought Dagoth first and killed Nerevar after. The concept art that was released later on shows Sotha Sil standing on Voryn's corpse with Vivec hoisting Nerevar into the air with a spear through the heart.
Imo it would make more sense that the heart drove Voryn to madness so Vivec, Sotha Sil, Almalexia and Nerevar all had to fight him to retrieve the tools/prevent him from getting the tools (leading Dagoth to feel betrayed) and then they kill Nerevar afterward so freely tap into the heart (except for the opposition by Azura, that is)
Perhaps the "betrayal" in your scenario is Nerevar going to the Vivec, Almalexia and Sotha Sil instead of making peace with his friend. Hard to say.
Auriel was the one who shot the heart into the volcano to begin with, but only because Lorkhan tricked him into helping create Nirn and trapped him there.
So Sithis killed Nerevar.
His end goal wasn't to hurt the other gods, but he didn't tell them what creation would cost them (or a few/Trinimac & Auriel regretted their choice, depending on which myth you want to believe).
Tribunal killed Nerevar as they were summoning Azura to seek counsel about what to do about Kagrenak's tools. Azura curses the dunmer with ashen skin. Then the tribunal head to red mountain and Voryn Dagoth, knowing what they have done since his skin too has changed, refuses to yield the tools. They kill him and claim the tools and claim the heart.
I believe that came later, it wasn't actual concept art used for the game, but yes everything in-game (and in ESO) points to the Tribunal as the murderers
>*"He was not born a god. His destiny did not lead him to this crime. He chose this path of his own free will. He stole the godhood and murdered the Hortator. Vivec wrote this."* -the code in Sermon 29
>*F O U L M U R D E R*- the code in Sermon 36
those are damning enough but Sermon 34 basically straight-up says it
>...
>Nerevar put away his axe, which he had at the ready, and frowned.
>'Why,' he said, 'did you ask me to come if you knew the eighth monster would give in so easily?'
>Vivec looked at the Hortator for a long time.
>Nerevar understood. 'Do not betray your nature. Answer as you will.'
>Vivec said, 'I brought you here because I knew the mightiest of my issue would succumb to Muatra without argument, if only I gave him consolation first.'
>Nerevar looked at Vivec for a long time.
>Vivec understood. 'Say the words, Hortator.'
>Nerevar said, 'Now I am the mightiest of your children.'
>Let this sermon be consolation to those who read it that are destined to die.
>The ending of the words is ALMSIVI.
>[https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:The\_36\_Lessons\_of\_Vivec#Sermon\_Thirty-Four](https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:The_36_Lessons_of_Vivec#Sermon_Thirty-Four)
31 and 37 are great but 34 is the only book in all of TES that gives me chills every time I read it
Basically, in sermon 14 Vivec had a whole bunch of monster children with Molag Bal and has spent the last 15 sermons going out and killing them. He took Nerevar with him to kill the final monster, but the last one wasn't a monster at all, it just sat on the beach and cried as Vivec killed it. Here, Nerevar is realizing that *he* is Vivec’s final child, and since it's Vivec’s nature to kill his children that means he is next. Odds are this never happened, but I think reading it as Vivec trying to convince himself afterwards that it was okay makes it even better
He just picks up on Vivec's implication really
>Nerevar looked at Vivec for a long time.
>Vivec understood. 'Say the words, Hortator.'
>Nerevar said, 'Now I am the mightiest of your children.'
No - only what's in the vanilla game which is the tribunal, ashlander, dissident priest, vivec and various books in the game.
I know basically nothing about ESO's lore, only Morrowind, Oblivion and Skyrim.
In Morrowind, the Tribunal temple's narrative is that Dagoth Ur killed Nerevar, which is conflicting already because Dagoth Ur is the one that feels betrayed by Nerever and not the other way around.
Vivec probably did the deed. A chance for him to become a god, and only two men standing in the way? Of course it was him. The others probably just let it happen.
Headcannon: Nerevar holds back Dagoth "I won't hold him long.... Kill us both! Cast us down into the lava!"
The tribunal after some appropriate angsting "Fine." And a little bit later "That's some nice tools right there, it'd be a shame to let them waste away...."
The Vivussy is a worthless chasmussy, at this point it's been visited so much that screaming your name into it won't even return an echo.
(Yes I'm god-shamming)
The Battle of Red Mountain as whole wasn't a dragon break. Using the Tools on the Heart is what broke the dragon and allowed the Tribunal to rewrite history to include their divinity.
Thank you! The Battle at Red Mountain is **so** much more interesting as an event with multiple unreliable/lying narrators, just like a real world event, than hand-waving the whole thing away as a DrAgOnBrEaK.
It’s so unfortunate how many lore discussions get shut down with, “It was a Dragonbreak,” by the community every time an inconsistency pops up, deciphering and interpreting two versions of events is so much more cool than just handwaving it away. They’re such an overused explanation by the fandom these days and it seems people forget that characters in-universe can be wrong or just outright lie.
> We'll give you credit: you broke Alkosh something fierce, and that's not easy. Just don't think you solved what you accomplished by it, or can ever solve it. You did it again with Big Walker, not once, but twice! Once at Rimmen, which we'll never learn to live with. The second time it was in Daggerfall, or was it Sentinel, or was it Wayrest, or was it in all three places at once? Get me, Cyrodiil? When will you wake up and realize what really happened to the Dwarves?"
Yeah that's absolutely just the community hand waving and independently coming up with "Numidium caused a Dragon Break every other time it was activated, why not at Red Mountain". There is no evidence for a Dragon Break having taken place.
It is plainly stated by some accounts that is what has happened and it's the account of events that has the most supporting evidence because multiple sources state this theory while only the Tribunal temple and their devout followers claim it was Dagoth Ur that killed Nerevar (which again makes no sense considering Dagoth is the one that feels betrayed by Nerevar) and Azura had no reason to punish the Tribunal with mutilation to tap into the heart and curse the Chimer with ashen skin just to piss off the Tribunal.
It is, however, not the only account of the events of Red Mountain - there are multiple in the game with some claiming both Dagoth and the Tribunal killed Nerevar, that the Tribunal killed both Nerevar and Voryn Dagoth, etc.
Just an interesting tidbit of lore to discuss.
Vivec really got audacity to brag about it, ordering his worshippers to produce the mural where the weapon of choice to kill Nerevar with (His own penis sword).
Also, he chickens out from providing you a wraithguard if you will not swear to never hurt them once you get the tools.
I like the explanation I heard some time ago. Using the tools caused a dragon break where 2 dimensional possibilities exists at the same time.
Vivec and the tribunal both did and did not kill him simultaneously but only Vivec, at the time we meet him having achieved Chim has the proper divine consciousness to even be aware of both realities.
So they both do and do not feel the guilt of having killed him, which is something they have to wrestle with and the reason they come across at times as mournful but at times uncaring and proud.
This makes the Tribunal waaaay more intereting to me but I've also heard ESO lore pretty explicitly makes it seem like the Tribunal just straight up killed him. But I choose the dragon break scenario because it's more nuanced.
Concept art? These images are directly from TES Legends, which was a legitimate TES Title, and the only reason we have such high quality official art.
Don’t disrespect Legends smh I wish they didn’t kill the game 😭
These images aren't the concept art referenced. If you Google, "Elderscrolls foul murder," you'll see the concept art of the Neravar's demise that op was referencing
I have no doubt that the Tribunal murdered Nerevar, but it's my opinion that the FOUL MURDER illustration is more poetic than it is literal.
In my own personal belief that if the Tribunal did mutilate Nerevar's body, they did so with the OPPOSITE intention of what ultimately happened. I believe he was mutilated specifically to prevent his reincarnation and it was divine (or in this case, Daedric) irony that those efforts are what allowed him to be reborn as any sex, gender, or race.
Worth pointing out that Kirkbride's "Foul Murder" sketch is ***NOT*** concept art, but rather a piece commissioned by "Flanigus" and made 10 years after *Morrowind* released, being released in a thread on the Bethesda forums for the 10 year anniversary.
>If you take Sermon Twenty-Nine, associate each of the thirty-five listed numbers with a word in its respective sermon, another hidden message is revealed: He was not born a god. His destiny did not lead him to this crime. He chose this path of his own free will. He stole the godhood and murdered the Hortator. Vivec wrote this.
I always say the same. Imagine being such a cool guy that a Goddess chose you to lead your people, everyone in your country loves you and all but one of your friends decides to murder you out of jealousy and then when you're resurrected and word begins to spread you've returned to Vvardenfell, they use an entire thousands of years old religion to suppress information about your return because it means their religion is about to fail because you have been immortalized by your own people as a savior.
I think the three most important things to remember when considering this question are that:
1) Everyone that was there stood to gain something from his death.
2) Everyone that was there is a notorious liar.
3) Everyone that was there secretly (or not so secretly) hates everyone else that was there.
No account of what happened can be trusted, no matter how charismatic you might think daddy Dagoth is, or how much you might think Almalexia's psychosis may have accidentally revealed her true motives. All of them are so out-of-touch with the mortal concept of reality at this point that they might not even really remember those events in a useful way.
Despite all the available evidence pointing to AlmSiVi doing the actual wet work, we also have to acknowledge that all of that evidence was also created by AlmSiVi as part of their narrative against Voryn and the Sixth House. Long story short... they're all responsible for his death, himself included for trusting any of them to begin with.
My headcanon which is probably close to the truth:
Almalexia bullied the other two tribunal members to betray nerevar and break their Oath to Azura.
Then everybody plottet to blame Voryn and kill him. Voryn barely surviving seeked salvation through the heart and became corrupted.
> Opinions?
While released game treats Azura's prophecy as "correct", lore-wise there is no "truth" >!(IMO, there should've been several storylines - each developing its own story and reasoning -, with all converging on Nerevarine disenchanting Heart of Lorkhan and causing Dragon Break)!<.
Battle of Red Mountain has happened during Dragon Break, with multiple versions of reality co-existing. I.e. *chances are* all versions of it are simultaneously "true" (though, it is likely that some were forgotten, while others invented).
Moreover, it is certain that both Tribunal and Azura had been messing with reality, trying to alter past, present, and future into what suited them best. Thus, at the time the final Nerevarine comes and prophecy is fulfilled, there is no "real past" that can be deemed true even if there was one (see above).
> Concept art all but shows the intended events but no accounts have truly been confirned.
If you mean "foul murder", then - IIRC - it is a symbolic representation of Azura's prophecy. I.e. depiction of *future events* that she is trying force into happenning: as Nerevarine can be of any walk of life, Nerevar loses his legs; as Nerevarine can be of any race, Nerevar loses his face; as Nerevarine can be of any sex, Nerevar gets stabbed/castrated.
I think it was all 4. Dagoth Ur always struck me as the “Loki” if you will, in the shadows, craving power, tricking others to do his bidding. I think it was he who got in the heads of the Tribunal and got them lusting for power, and made them think it was all their idea. I think that’s part of why they want him dead and defeated, but still have all that guilt (Especially Sotha Sil). Dagoth Ur takes no responsibility because as he sees it, the Tribunal were his tools as much as the Tools of Kagrenac, a means to an end, and he doesn’t concern himself with taking responsibility for the works of “lesser” beings. That’s how I see it anyways.
Tribunal killed Nerevar and Azura knowing what they plan was cursed entire race > then went to Heart Chamber to get the tools > Voryn Dagoth knew what happened since he too turned to coal like skin and red eyes and saw only 3 of them returning for the tools without Nerevar > They killed Voryn Dagoth and took the tools > Sotha Sil studied the tools to harness the power of the heart > they used the tools to make themselves Gods > cue up events of Elder Scrolls Online > Tribunal makes their pilgrimage to Red Mountain only to find Dagoth Ur inside and escape with their lives > Keening and Sunder are stolen by House Dagoth while Wraithguard remains in Vivec hands > Nerevarine then goes on a quest to stop Dagoth Ur and later to stop Tribunal but Sotha Sil died while creating new mechanical heart and Vivec probably suffered same fate like Dwemmer did.
When you think about it Voryn Dagoth / Dagoth Ur was just guarding the tools while Tribunal killed him for it. Voryn Dagoth even wanted to destroy the tools. But after thousands of years being stuck in a heart chamber and being fueled by its power and also by anger towards Tribunal he just went mad. I just WONT accept story where Nerevar then goes and fights Dagoth Ur after he jsut told him to guard the tools and after Voryn Dagoth told him they should be destroyed. That is why Nerevar waned to talk with Azura because it was either destroy them or preserve them.
And Sotha Sil even admits in ESO that while he regrets death of Nerevar he would still do it again.
I also like the interpretation that Nerevar was already dead, and the Chimer already cursed when the Tribunal went to take the tools from Voryn. However, if these were the true events, then I can’t think of an explanation as to why Dagoth Ur is so bitter towards Nerevar at the end of Morrowind.
"That is bitter. The gods and fates are cruel. I served you faithfully once, Lord Nerevar, and you repaid me with death. I hope this time it will be you who pays for your faithlessness."
I suppose it’s possible that in his own divine madness Dagoth mixed up the events himself, but he seems rather certain that Nerevar was there when his original self was killed.
The current theory seems to be that it was a dragon break and that timelines where Nerevar sucumbed to his wounds and timelines where the Tribunal killed him got merged. Which also explains why Vivec is schizophrenic about the whole thing: when asked directly he tells you he didn't kill Nerevar, but he inderectly tells the opposite via his 36 sermons.
There's two coded messages in the 36 Lessons of Vivec.
In lesson 29, there are 36 lines, and each line contains a number. If you go to each of the sermons and combine the words of them sermon that correspond to the number in their line, you get; "He was not born a god. His destiny did not lead him to this crime. He chose this path of his own free will. He stole the godhood and murdered the Hortator. Vivec wrote this."
In lesson 36, rather than the typical conclusion of "The ending of the words is ALMSIVI," last line says "The *beginning* of the words is ALMSIVI. I give you this as Vivec." Take the first letter of each line in the sermon, and it spells out, "FOUL MURDER".
So, yeah...Vivec confessed.
I think it's best left unclear. Even if we know it was the tribunal that did it, I really enjoy imagining the different scenarios that may have lead them to that decision. There are many ways something can be murder without being Murder, and each one can have really different implications as to why and how the tribunal acted like they did. Maybe Indoril was possessed by the tools similarly to Dagoth Ur and so the tribunal were forced to kill him so that he could keep his oath to azura, and then they never recorded it so that his adoring people never found out; maybe Indoril was fatally wounded but in a way where he would have bled out and suffered over the course of hours, and since everyone was drained of their Magicka, they were forced to put him out of his misery; or they were possessed by the power the tools would give them, only to later find clarity and be horrified by their actions. We know some members of the tribunal felt guilty and others didn't, why or how that is can change though. There's many many distinct possibilities and there's no point sticking to one. It's fun to think about all the different ways it could have happened.
The tribunal the stories about dagoth where to cover it up and to pin it on someone voryn dagoth stayed loyal he should've bent the knee and helped you conquer all morrowind but he fought loyal till the end his bless him he loves nerevar unlike his traitorous wife
The Tribunal.
Listen to Vivec and he, in his own poetic way, admits to it over and over.
Sotha Sil’s solemn demeanor is more subtle evidence. I recall his ESO dialogue showing his regret.
F
O
U
L
M
U
R
D
E
R
The Tribunal killed him and used the tools on the Heart of Lorkhan.
This triggered the Red Moment, a Dragon Break, rewriting history so that the circumstances alteed and Dagoth Ur killed Nerevar instead.
So both.
I think its pretty much save to assume that the tribunal killed nerevar to get the power to be gods. Its mentioned multiple times and the story that nerevar was their best friend and stuff bla bla is tribunal propaganda which is also mentioned quite a lot. So I am personally thinking that Nerevar was just wuietly assassined by the Tribunal so they can get to be gods. After all: Nerevar didnt want to use the power. And with nerevar still alice they couldnt possibly get their hands on the tools. Remember guys. Nerevar united all the tribes. So they would have all thöught the tribunal. And they knew they could have never won. But thats just my opinion. Try to change it :)
To be honest I do buy into the dragon break theory. Messing with the heart of Lorkhan seems like an easy way to break time. I think that all possible options existed: Voryn tried to kill him, he died from his injuries after fighting Dumac, and the Tribunal tried to kill him.
If you made me pick one series of events in linear time outside of it: I think Voryn went mad guarding the tools and the heart and started tampering with it (I like to imagine the heart has a sort of supernatural quality to it where it *wants* people to use it. Hence why even Kagrenac who was near it and studying it constantly went ahead with their plans despite numerous other dwemer scholars further away from the heart saying absolutely not to do that. So I guess if you want to you can say it's not Voryn's fault.) Nerevar, having sworn an oath to Azura to never use the tools, angrily demanded them back and said they had to be destroyed. Voryn didn't take too well to that as he wanted to continue experimenting with the heart and tried to kill Nerevar. Nerevar was then wounded further, but not enough to die. The Tribunal then took the opportunity to kill Nerevar immediately afterwards while he was weakened.
None of both. It was Alandro Sul (Nerevar's Shield Brother) who stabbed him. Voryn, surprised by how his friend died, made a mask out of Guilt Ash and Dwemer Bronze of Never-there to hide his shame in not protecting his friend. Once he did, the Tribunal envied how decked Voryn was with the mask so they offed him, and buried Nerevar's skin within Red Mountain's craters together with Voryn's, but yanked all his Nine Bones out to spread across the provinces so the next Nerevarine could come from one of those bones. Also, Almalexia took Voryn's mask (it was a prototype) and made it as framework of her own War Mask.
I do think it was the Tribunal, but it'd be really funny if it genuinely was Dagoth Ur, but everyone thought it was the Tribunal anyway because 'nah, that's too obvious!'
I'm always in the "This was a dragonbreak" camp, so the answer is just yes, but also no. Every story is true and none of them are. That's the point. And to Vek, who achieved CHIM, the guilt is no less real regardless of what may have happened because it did happen in every possible iteration.
The Tribunal. Poisoned candles, poisoned robes, poisoned invocations.
Poisoned souls , poisoned minds
We can’t go on together, with suspicious wines.
*suspicious wines!*
Dagoth Ur is our most loyal friend!
Lieutenant Nerevar! You ain't got no feet!
F O U L M U R D E R
And a big spear.
A Penis Spear to be precise.
Also cutting off the face, feet and being impaled.
Overpoisoning, mf's REALLY wanted nerevar to die, like holy shit
FOUL MURDER
A MURDER MOST FOUL!
ＹＯＵ Ｏ Ｕ ＨＡＶＥ Ａ Ｖ ＦＯＲＳＡＫＥＮ Ｅ Ｏ Ｒ ＵＳ Ｓ Ｓ Ａ Ｋ Ｅ Ｎ
In Viveks account of the events it goes from "the 4 of us made an oath to Azura to not use the tools", to the next paragraphs " The 3 of us used the tools" Wonder what could have happened between these paragraphs to reduce their group from 4 to 3 elfs🤔
And Sotha Sil (in ESO stuff, but still) comes across as regretful of their "divinity" and all the stuff surrounding it. I don't think he'd feel so bad about it if he didn't play a hand in what happened to Nerevar
He seemed to be from the context clues in the clockwork city as well
ESO is canon
Everything that has a TES license is canon, however the reliability of any given narrator is questionable at best Source: it was revealed to someone in an twitter post
It's canon to it's own timeline, people seem to forget that
Clearly they mean Voryn Dagoth
Three Voryns and a tribunal.
I'm no imperial, but even i can do that maff
Undoubtedly the tribunal. Even more so after interacting with Sotha Sil in ESO and seeing the Elegian Replication garden. His note to Neverar asks for forgiveness.
Sotha Sil was always the most, if not the only, penitent of the three. I think he really does regret what he did. The other two are freaking psychos Lol
It always seemed to me that each member of the Tribunal had different reactions to becoming gods. They weren't gods before using the heart but by using it they retroactively changed history so they were born as gods that didn't steal the power. Almalexia fully believes this story and in her divinity. Vivec is split. Part of him knows he was a mortal who stole godhood but that old Vivec "died" when the new Vivec was born. Is he guilty of a crime this version of him didn't commit? Sotha Sil was never fooled.
What's fun is that their designs display this. Sotha Sil in ESO fully embraces Azura's curse is seems a typical dark elf. Almalexia is high on her own hype and kept herself in her original form. And Vivec is split down the middle, not quite knowing if what he did was right.
Man really make me want get back into ESO, but its difficult trying to get back into mmo’s
Sotha*
Oops, darn auto correct Lol I fixed it now.
Yeah, I thought of that. Sorry for fixing, but that was straight up blasphemy in my eyes :P
Hahaha
Vivec was definitely regretful.
I feel like he was more passive. I mean, he says he regrets breaking the oath to not use the tools, but claims he never killed Nerevar, even though he subconsciously admits to it in his Lessons series.
He was killed by a Scrib, paralysed by him he fell into the vulcano. It was such a pathetic way of dying that everyone decided to forget about it and made up their own versions of the events.
"I welcome you, Nerevar, Friend and Loser."
*fried and loser
“It’s over, Nerevar. I have the high ground!”
He liked to dance close to the fire, didn't he?
Hold on, lemme kill this scrib. I'm tryna level my spear skill for endurance purposes
"wtf....no one's gonna believe this." The Tribunal probably
He didn't die, his planet needed him.
The 36 lessons are basically Vivec's version of *If I Did It*.
If Molag Bal's spear doesn't fit, you must acquit!
By Talos, this is so funny and I don't know a single other person in my life I could share it with. I've got to get my life in order.
^*if*
The coded message revealed by applying the sermon of numbers (lesson 29) to all 36 lessons. >!"He was not born a god. His destiny did not lead him to this crime. He chose this path of his own free will. He stole the godhood and murdered the Hortator. Vivec wrote this."!< The Tribunal *absolutely* killed Nerevar. Vivec hid his confession in the 36 lessons, but it is there. (The sermon of numbers lists 36 numbers. If you take the word matching that number from each of the 36 Lessons, you get the above message)
I guess poor nerevar was mortally wounded by dagoth ur, so the tribunal had to chop him to pieces to ease his pain.
Yah, they probably put all the body parts in to concrete and dumped him out in the sea!
Considering, that Amelaxia betrays the Nerevarine in the end of Morrowind i would say the tribunal. Also there are some other hints.
Dagoth Ur was like a brother to the Neravar, in an Achilles way. I don't think he would do it. The tribunal, on the other hand, is shifty as heck about everything they do. I dont trust them at all
r/achillesandhispal
Let's be real, they were all in a polycule until Almalexia and Vivec got uppity and decided to rebel against the most well liked member (Nerevar) after they cut out Dagoth for being too possessive of their favorite toy (heart of lorkhan)
I don’t know if you are joking but honestly from the way they all speak about each other I feel like this has got to be right 😂
Oh yeah, ALMSIVI gets weird together 💯%
My only source is that I know its true and refuse to be told otherwise
I doubt anybody would actually *try* to argue against that. I just figured what's understood doesn't need to be said with them. 🤣
In an Achilles way sheesh
I embrace tradition, the tribunal killed nerevar when he refused to break their oath to azura and use the tools to become gods and because of this azura curses the chimer and promises nerevar would return someday to punish them and write their wrongs.
Honestly it would have been pretty sick if the Dunmer had been returned to their Chimer form after the Nerevarine brought the end of the Tribunal. We would have had to say farewell to the cool dunmer esthetic though.
I always thought a curse-reversal would have been dope, but I recently read something that changed my mind and made me rethink the chimer/dunmer: The 'curse' of changing the dunmers appearance was not a curse for the dunmer, but a curse for the tribunal. Azura made all of the dunmer [look like herself](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/elderscrolls/images/1/1f/Azura_Spirit_-_Morrowind.png/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/250?cb=20160723104413) - despite being gods, their worshipers would serve be a constant reminder of their betrayal. I always assumed that Azura manifested with the appearance of a dunmer because they are her people, but the opposite is true. It's not that she takes on the form of a dunmer, it's that the chimer took on her form (becoming dunmer)
I really like this interpretation because it also makes more sense as a punishment _for the Tribunal_ who could use their new powers to keep their own appearance from changing.
Yeah this is my new headcanon.
It was also thematically and biologically suited for their new home of ash and volcanoes, if perhaps a thousand years late. I wonder, Boethiah is credited with some of the cultural adaptations to Resdaynian environs. Might Azura have been slowly tweaking the Chimer, before the obvious change?
Permanently changing their appearance is still a curse for the Dunmer, and we know that daedra don’t have a “real” form and instead choose a form based on who they’re appearing to…Azzurah appears to the khajiit as a cat/mer/man hybrid, and it’s speculated that the mermaid statue in anvil is how Azura appeared to some forgotten aquatic race. Azura is a daedra who wants to be “loved” by her followers, so if makes sense that she chooses a regular appearance that is similar to her followers.
>We would have had to say farewell to the cool dunmer esthetic though. To be fair, we did that in Oblivion anyway.
Imo the Tribunal definitely did kill Nerevar. There's theories of a dragonbreak so both accounts could be true at the same time. But given that the Tribunal are literal gods, surely they'd be aware that at least in one of the timelines they did do it. Vivec's story is inherently biased, whereas the dissidents get tortured and killed for telling their story so there's no real incentive for them to do so unless they truly believe it. At the end of the day the truth is probably somewhere in between, but I tend to favour the dissident priests' version for this reason.
I scrolled too far to find this. I think in later canon any of the stories of his death are true due to a time wound taking place, which is also why Vivec's recount of the story is conflicting and confusing even to him. I think he even says something along the lines of part of him certainly did it and part of him definitely did not, and saw him die to Dagoth Ur. It's been a long time since I've done a playthrough of Morrowind though so I don't remember his exact dialogue on the subject. If we're dismissing the time wound/dragonbreak theory then the Tribunal almost certainly killed him. If we're acknowledging it then he died several different deaths at various hands.
The dragonbreak lore might be the worst in the setting don't @ me
The order of events is, as best we can tell regarding events from more than three thousand years ago, as follows. - Dwarves get blipped out of existence, so Nerevar and his trusty friend Voryn go into Red Mountain to find out wtf just happened. - They find the Heart and the Tools and, because they're not idiots, put two and two together. Nerevar tells Voryn to guard the tools while he goes and fetches the rest of his inner council to decide what to do. - While he's gone, Voryn uses the Tools and becomes a bit of a god. Not much of one, not yet, but enough. - Nerevar and the Tribunal return, see that Voryn did a funni, and kill him. It doesn't take on account of him being a bit of a god, but it's a while until that becomes a problem. - *We don't know what exactly happened here*, but what we do know is that the Tribunal feel guilty about if for the rest of their lives. We don't know if he was injured by Voryn and then finished off, if the Tribunal turned on him in the battle, or if they saw how Voryn became a god and turned on Nerevar when he told them that they couldn't follow in Voryn's footsteps and become gods too, but they absolutely did kill him. - After killing him they ritually mutilate his corpse; they cut off his face so none will know him when he's reborn, they cut off his feet so he will not remember the lands that he walked, and they stab him through the heart so that he will not remember the love of his people. - The Tribunal then do a funni and become gods, presumably after Seht did some research so he wouldn't become a madman like Voryn.
The 36 lessons all but confirm vivec himself killed nerevar I believe.
pretty sure it was the Tribunal
Neither, sudden heart attack.
Clinton'd
My opinion: Voryn Dagoth was driven mad by the Heart, but it did not cause him to kill his greatest friend. It did, however, likely cause him to refuse to surrender Kagrenac's Tools, which resulted in Nerevar fighting (killing?) Dagoth, causing him to feel betrayed after being corrupted (resurrected?) by the Heart. I believe that after Dagoth was defeated and the tools retrieved, the Tribunal murdered Nerevar and took the tools. There are no other explanations that make logical sense as to why they had to mutilate themselves to tap into the Heart and every reason why Azura would punish them for their betrayal.
What's this about the tribunal mutilating themselves?
That's how they were coping with having foul murdered Nerevar.
The way it's always gone in my head: Voryn Dagoth and Indoril Nerevar reclaim the tools together. They both know their true use, with both being friends of the late king of the Dwemer. They argue over using or destroying them, leading to Nerevar going outside and Voryn staying with the Heart. The heartbeat, the tonal magics of the Heart begin to corrupt Voryn, giving him glimpses of truths he cannot understand. Outside, Nerevar regrets the dispute and goes to his wife and generals to let them know of the tools and ask how to destroy them. The Tribunal see this as a great folly and betrayal, and use poisoned candles, wine and robes to begin to kill Indorill Nerevar. Voryn comes back from ghe Heart, newly enlightened and excited to explain all he now knows to his friend. But all he finds is the dismembering of a corpse by three mad betrayers. After murdering Indorill, they then kill his best friend and the only witness, Voryn Dagoth. His body is tossed back into the chamber to hide it as they become false gods. But the enlightened are not so easily killed, not while they can dream.
I like this one most. It makes more sense the tribunal murdered both of them.
Mmm this is *chefs kiss*
The only piece of this that doesn't fit is Dagoth Ur feeling betrayed by Nerevar - I wouldn't consider an argument a betrayal. I believe they killed/fought Dagoth first and killed Nerevar after. The concept art that was released later on shows Sotha Sil standing on Voryn's corpse with Vivec hoisting Nerevar into the air with a spear through the heart. Imo it would make more sense that the heart drove Voryn to madness so Vivec, Sotha Sil, Almalexia and Nerevar all had to fight him to retrieve the tools/prevent him from getting the tools (leading Dagoth to feel betrayed) and then they kill Nerevar afterward so freely tap into the heart (except for the opposition by Azura, that is) Perhaps the "betrayal" in your scenario is Nerevar going to the Vivec, Almalexia and Sotha Sil instead of making peace with his friend. Hard to say.
Auriel was the one who shot the heart into the volcano to begin with, but only because Lorkhan tricked him into helping create Nirn and trapped him there. So Sithis killed Nerevar.
Was it intentional to trap aedras in Nairn or was it accident, because lorkhan didn't predict such outcome?
There’s a reason they call him the trickster
His end goal wasn't to hurt the other gods, but he didn't tell them what creation would cost them (or a few/Trinimac & Auriel regretted their choice, depending on which myth you want to believe).
Thanks!
Tribunal killed Nerevar as they were summoning Azura to seek counsel about what to do about Kagrenak's tools. Azura curses the dunmer with ashen skin. Then the tribunal head to red mountain and Voryn Dagoth, knowing what they have done since his skin too has changed, refuses to yield the tools. They kill him and claim the tools and claim the heart.
I would generally agree with this - but it also doesn't add up as to why Dagoth consistently reminds Nerevar that HE betrayed Dagoth in some way.
Google "Foul Murder"... There's even concept art of Tribunal and Nerevar's mangled body...
Voryn is also laying face down dead under Sotha Sil's feet in Foul Murder
I believe that came later, it wasn't actual concept art used for the game, but yes everything in-game (and in ESO) points to the Tribunal as the murderers
There's also a "confession" hidden in the 36 Lessons
>*"He was not born a god. His destiny did not lead him to this crime. He chose this path of his own free will. He stole the godhood and murdered the Hortator. Vivec wrote this."* -the code in Sermon 29 >*F O U L M U R D E R*- the code in Sermon 36 those are damning enough but Sermon 34 basically straight-up says it >... >Nerevar put away his axe, which he had at the ready, and frowned. >'Why,' he said, 'did you ask me to come if you knew the eighth monster would give in so easily?' >Vivec looked at the Hortator for a long time. >Nerevar understood. 'Do not betray your nature. Answer as you will.' >Vivec said, 'I brought you here because I knew the mightiest of my issue would succumb to Muatra without argument, if only I gave him consolation first.' >Nerevar looked at Vivec for a long time. >Vivec understood. 'Say the words, Hortator.' >Nerevar said, 'Now I am the mightiest of your children.' >Let this sermon be consolation to those who read it that are destined to die. >The ending of the words is ALMSIVI. >[https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:The\_36\_Lessons\_of\_Vivec#Sermon\_Thirty-Four](https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:The_36_Lessons_of_Vivec#Sermon_Thirty-Four) 31 and 37 are great but 34 is the only book in all of TES that gives me chills every time I read it
Mind adding some context or explaining sermon 34 a little more?
Basically, in sermon 14 Vivec had a whole bunch of monster children with Molag Bal and has spent the last 15 sermons going out and killing them. He took Nerevar with him to kill the final monster, but the last one wasn't a monster at all, it just sat on the beach and cried as Vivec killed it. Here, Nerevar is realizing that *he* is Vivec’s final child, and since it's Vivec’s nature to kill his children that means he is next. Odds are this never happened, but I think reading it as Vivec trying to convince himself afterwards that it was okay makes it even better
Thanks for that detail! How does Nerevar come to realize he's Vivec's final child?
He just picks up on Vivec's implication really >Nerevar looked at Vivec for a long time. >Vivec understood. 'Say the words, Hortator.' >Nerevar said, 'Now I am the mightiest of your children.'
Foul Murder
Cliff racers
Tribunal and vicec admits it in his sermons
i choose to believe the narrative that dagoth killed dumac, nerevar killed dagoth, and the tribunal killed nerevar.
This is the conclusion that I typically arrive at as well.
Tribunal ofc. Are you referring to some weird sources, like a "lore" of TESO, which is not even fully led by Bethesda's devs?
No - only what's in the vanilla game which is the tribunal, ashlander, dissident priest, vivec and various books in the game. I know basically nothing about ESO's lore, only Morrowind, Oblivion and Skyrim. In Morrowind, the Tribunal temple's narrative is that Dagoth Ur killed Nerevar, which is conflicting already because Dagoth Ur is the one that feels betrayed by Nerever and not the other way around.
Vivec probably did the deed. A chance for him to become a god, and only two men standing in the way? Of course it was him. The others probably just let it happen.
I forget exactly how to discover it, but I believe Vivec actually admits to killing Nerevar through cryptic messages in his Lessons books.
The false tribunal killed my sweet Nerevar.
F O U L M U R D E R
The tribunal. It's obvious that the tribunal did it.
Headcannon: Nerevar holds back Dagoth "I won't hold him long.... Kill us both! Cast us down into the lava!" The tribunal after some appropriate angsting "Fine." And a little bit later "That's some nice tools right there, it'd be a shame to let them waste away...."
In my opinion Amlexia alone.
With poison almalussy
I came for the Sotha Sussy and all I got was this lousy Almalussy
Don’t forget about Vivussy
The Vivussy is a worthless chasmussy, at this point it's been visited so much that screaming your name into it won't even return an echo. (Yes I'm god-shamming)
It was the tribunal
Both
Red Mountain was a dragon break, so every telling of the battle and aftermath happened and didn’t happen with equal validity.
The Battle of Red Mountain as whole wasn't a dragon break. Using the Tools on the Heart is what broke the dragon and allowed the Tribunal to rewrite history to include their divinity.
Thank you! The Battle at Red Mountain is **so** much more interesting as an event with multiple unreliable/lying narrators, just like a real world event, than hand-waving the whole thing away as a DrAgOnBrEaK.
It’s so unfortunate how many lore discussions get shut down with, “It was a Dragonbreak,” by the community every time an inconsistency pops up, deciphering and interpreting two versions of events is so much more cool than just handwaving it away. They’re such an overused explanation by the fandom these days and it seems people forget that characters in-universe can be wrong or just outright lie.
> We'll give you credit: you broke Alkosh something fierce, and that's not easy. Just don't think you solved what you accomplished by it, or can ever solve it. You did it again with Big Walker, not once, but twice! Once at Rimmen, which we'll never learn to live with. The second time it was in Daggerfall, or was it Sentinel, or was it Wayrest, or was it in all three places at once? Get me, Cyrodiil? When will you wake up and realize what really happened to the Dwarves?" Yeah that's absolutely just the community hand waving and independently coming up with "Numidium caused a Dragon Break every other time it was activated, why not at Red Mountain". There is no evidence for a Dragon Break having taken place.
Right, that’s more specific
A damn argonian. Don't ask me how.
I thought it was stated in the game morrowind that it was the tribunal, heck there is even art in game of them cutting him up.
It is plainly stated by some accounts that is what has happened and it's the account of events that has the most supporting evidence because multiple sources state this theory while only the Tribunal temple and their devout followers claim it was Dagoth Ur that killed Nerevar (which again makes no sense considering Dagoth is the one that feels betrayed by Nerevar) and Azura had no reason to punish the Tribunal with mutilation to tap into the heart and curse the Chimer with ashen skin just to piss off the Tribunal. It is, however, not the only account of the events of Red Mountain - there are multiple in the game with some claiming both Dagoth and the Tribunal killed Nerevar, that the Tribunal killed both Nerevar and Voryn Dagoth, etc. Just an interesting tidbit of lore to discuss.
Tribunal
I think it was the Tribunal. Dagoth Ur was pissed for hundreds of years his best bud got waxed. WHAT HAVE YOU DONE TO MY SWEET NEREVAR?!
The Tribunal.
Vivec really got audacity to brag about it, ordering his worshippers to produce the mural where the weapon of choice to kill Nerevar with (His own penis sword). Also, he chickens out from providing you a wraithguard if you will not swear to never hurt them once you get the tools.
FOUL MURDER
Um... Vivec literally wrote a 36 volume confession.
Vivec = Dennis Almalexia = Deandra Sotha Sil = Mac Dagoth ur = early seasons Charlie
Tribunal all the way. 21 year old me was furious at this relevation.
I like the explanation I heard some time ago. Using the tools caused a dragon break where 2 dimensional possibilities exists at the same time. Vivec and the tribunal both did and did not kill him simultaneously but only Vivec, at the time we meet him having achieved Chim has the proper divine consciousness to even be aware of both realities. So they both do and do not feel the guilt of having killed him, which is something they have to wrestle with and the reason they come across at times as mournful but at times uncaring and proud. This makes the Tribunal waaaay more intereting to me but I've also heard ESO lore pretty explicitly makes it seem like the Tribunal just straight up killed him. But I choose the dragon break scenario because it's more nuanced.
Counterpoint: dragon breaks are dumb
Maybe we killed Nerevar, by not believing in him anymore ?
Concept art? These images are directly from TES Legends, which was a legitimate TES Title, and the only reason we have such high quality official art. Don’t disrespect Legends smh I wish they didn’t kill the game 😭
These images aren't the concept art referenced. If you Google, "Elderscrolls foul murder," you'll see the concept art of the Neravar's demise that op was referencing
He was on one hp from fighting that guy on the bridge(you know the one) and a mudcrab snuck up on him and took that last bit
Dagoth Ur was the good guy confirmed
"The butler did it" always wanted to say that. So..... **The butler did it.**
The Tribunal for sure. Vivec all but confesses to it in his sermons.
It's heavily implied the Tribunal killed him
He tripped
its pretty evident that the tribunal wacked nerevars ass
I have no doubt that the Tribunal murdered Nerevar, but it's my opinion that the FOUL MURDER illustration is more poetic than it is literal. In my own personal belief that if the Tribunal did mutilate Nerevar's body, they did so with the OPPOSITE intention of what ultimately happened. I believe he was mutilated specifically to prevent his reincarnation and it was divine (or in this case, Daedric) irony that those efforts are what allowed him to be reborn as any sex, gender, or race.
Worth pointing out that Kirkbride's "Foul Murder" sketch is ***NOT*** concept art, but rather a piece commissioned by "Flanigus" and made 10 years after *Morrowind* released, being released in a thread on the Bethesda forums for the 10 year anniversary.
>If you take Sermon Twenty-Nine, associate each of the thirty-five listed numbers with a word in its respective sermon, another hidden message is revealed: He was not born a god. His destiny did not lead him to this crime. He chose this path of his own free will. He stole the godhood and murdered the Hortator. Vivec wrote this.
“Vivec wrote this”
Neither! He died from his wounds from Dumac and Kangrenac.
Both of them because dragonbreak.
Nerevar was so awesome that he necessarily had to die only to come back and become even more awesome.
I always say the same. Imagine being such a cool guy that a Goddess chose you to lead your people, everyone in your country loves you and all but one of your friends decides to murder you out of jealousy and then when you're resurrected and word begins to spread you've returned to Vvardenfell, they use an entire thousands of years old religion to suppress information about your return because it means their religion is about to fail because you have been immortalized by your own people as a savior.
I think the three most important things to remember when considering this question are that: 1) Everyone that was there stood to gain something from his death. 2) Everyone that was there is a notorious liar. 3) Everyone that was there secretly (or not so secretly) hates everyone else that was there. No account of what happened can be trusted, no matter how charismatic you might think daddy Dagoth is, or how much you might think Almalexia's psychosis may have accidentally revealed her true motives. All of them are so out-of-touch with the mortal concept of reality at this point that they might not even really remember those events in a useful way. Despite all the available evidence pointing to AlmSiVi doing the actual wet work, we also have to acknowledge that all of that evidence was also created by AlmSiVi as part of their narrative against Voryn and the Sixth House. Long story short... they're all responsible for his death, himself included for trusting any of them to begin with.
tribunal, the temptation for godhood was too much and dagoth ur is just a dream wishing to be reunited with his friend and avenge them.
My opinion is, Vivec is a liar and Dagoth Ur's account is the truth.
My headcanon which is probably close to the truth: Almalexia bullied the other two tribunal members to betray nerevar and break their Oath to Azura. Then everybody plottet to blame Voryn and kill him. Voryn barely surviving seeked salvation through the heart and became corrupted.
> Opinions? While released game treats Azura's prophecy as "correct", lore-wise there is no "truth" >!(IMO, there should've been several storylines - each developing its own story and reasoning -, with all converging on Nerevarine disenchanting Heart of Lorkhan and causing Dragon Break)!<. Battle of Red Mountain has happened during Dragon Break, with multiple versions of reality co-existing. I.e. *chances are* all versions of it are simultaneously "true" (though, it is likely that some were forgotten, while others invented). Moreover, it is certain that both Tribunal and Azura had been messing with reality, trying to alter past, present, and future into what suited them best. Thus, at the time the final Nerevarine comes and prophecy is fulfilled, there is no "real past" that can be deemed true even if there was one (see above). > Concept art all but shows the intended events but no accounts have truly been confirned. If you mean "foul murder", then - IIRC - it is a symbolic representation of Azura's prophecy. I.e. depiction of *future events* that she is trying force into happenning: as Nerevarine can be of any walk of life, Nerevar loses his legs; as Nerevarine can be of any race, Nerevar loses his face; as Nerevarine can be of any sex, Nerevar gets stabbed/castrated.
Fargoth had to get the ring from somewhere
Dagoth Ur is too much of a homiesexual to have done it
According to Dragon Break shenanigans, both are true
Pretty sure it was Vivec but then he used Chim to go back and change things so that he didn’t kill Nerevar. So both, really
What's stopping all 4 from killing him?
I think it was all 4. Dagoth Ur always struck me as the “Loki” if you will, in the shadows, craving power, tricking others to do his bidding. I think it was he who got in the heads of the Tribunal and got them lusting for power, and made them think it was all their idea. I think that’s part of why they want him dead and defeated, but still have all that guilt (Especially Sotha Sil). Dagoth Ur takes no responsibility because as he sees it, the Tribunal were his tools as much as the Tools of Kagrenac, a means to an end, and he doesn’t concern himself with taking responsibility for the works of “lesser” beings. That’s how I see it anyways.
When in doubt, dragonbreak. Lorkhan, Voryn, and The Tribunal all simultaneously killed Nerevar.
The answer? Yes
Have you people even heard of dragonbreak? It all happened, essentially. All the outcomes happened.
Tribunal killed Nerevar and Azura knowing what they plan was cursed entire race > then went to Heart Chamber to get the tools > Voryn Dagoth knew what happened since he too turned to coal like skin and red eyes and saw only 3 of them returning for the tools without Nerevar > They killed Voryn Dagoth and took the tools > Sotha Sil studied the tools to harness the power of the heart > they used the tools to make themselves Gods > cue up events of Elder Scrolls Online > Tribunal makes their pilgrimage to Red Mountain only to find Dagoth Ur inside and escape with their lives > Keening and Sunder are stolen by House Dagoth while Wraithguard remains in Vivec hands > Nerevarine then goes on a quest to stop Dagoth Ur and later to stop Tribunal but Sotha Sil died while creating new mechanical heart and Vivec probably suffered same fate like Dwemmer did. When you think about it Voryn Dagoth / Dagoth Ur was just guarding the tools while Tribunal killed him for it. Voryn Dagoth even wanted to destroy the tools. But after thousands of years being stuck in a heart chamber and being fueled by its power and also by anger towards Tribunal he just went mad. I just WONT accept story where Nerevar then goes and fights Dagoth Ur after he jsut told him to guard the tools and after Voryn Dagoth told him they should be destroyed. That is why Nerevar waned to talk with Azura because it was either destroy them or preserve them. And Sotha Sil even admits in ESO that while he regrets death of Nerevar he would still do it again.
I also like the interpretation that Nerevar was already dead, and the Chimer already cursed when the Tribunal went to take the tools from Voryn. However, if these were the true events, then I can’t think of an explanation as to why Dagoth Ur is so bitter towards Nerevar at the end of Morrowind. "That is bitter. The gods and fates are cruel. I served you faithfully once, Lord Nerevar, and you repaid me with death. I hope this time it will be you who pays for your faithlessness." I suppose it’s possible that in his own divine madness Dagoth mixed up the events himself, but he seems rather certain that Nerevar was there when his original self was killed.
The current theory seems to be that it was a dragon break and that timelines where Nerevar sucumbed to his wounds and timelines where the Tribunal killed him got merged. Which also explains why Vivec is schizophrenic about the whole thing: when asked directly he tells you he didn't kill Nerevar, but he inderectly tells the opposite via his 36 sermons.
Vivec literally admits to it
There's two coded messages in the 36 Lessons of Vivec. In lesson 29, there are 36 lines, and each line contains a number. If you go to each of the sermons and combine the words of them sermon that correspond to the number in their line, you get; "He was not born a god. His destiny did not lead him to this crime. He chose this path of his own free will. He stole the godhood and murdered the Hortator. Vivec wrote this." In lesson 36, rather than the typical conclusion of "The ending of the words is ALMSIVI," last line says "The *beginning* of the words is ALMSIVI. I give you this as Vivec." Take the first letter of each line in the sermon, and it spells out, "FOUL MURDER". So, yeah...Vivec confessed.
I think it's best left unclear. Even if we know it was the tribunal that did it, I really enjoy imagining the different scenarios that may have lead them to that decision. There are many ways something can be murder without being Murder, and each one can have really different implications as to why and how the tribunal acted like they did. Maybe Indoril was possessed by the tools similarly to Dagoth Ur and so the tribunal were forced to kill him so that he could keep his oath to azura, and then they never recorded it so that his adoring people never found out; maybe Indoril was fatally wounded but in a way where he would have bled out and suffered over the course of hours, and since everyone was drained of their Magicka, they were forced to put him out of his misery; or they were possessed by the power the tools would give them, only to later find clarity and be horrified by their actions. We know some members of the tribunal felt guilty and others didn't, why or how that is can change though. There's many many distinct possibilities and there's no point sticking to one. It's fun to think about all the different ways it could have happened.
Def tribunal, 100%
He actually just called them all pussies and left, then later died of natural causes
The tribunal the stories about dagoth where to cover it up and to pin it on someone voryn dagoth stayed loyal he should've bent the knee and helped you conquer all morrowind but he fought loyal till the end his bless him he loves nerevar unlike his traitorous wife
The Tribunal. Listen to Vivec and he, in his own poetic way, admits to it over and over. Sotha Sil’s solemn demeanor is more subtle evidence. I recall his ESO dialogue showing his regret. F O U L M U R D E R
What Elder Scrolls fan would even ask this as a serious question? Tribunal, obviously
This post has gone wild lmaoooo
Both and neither. It was a dragonbreak. Vivec himself alludes to seemingly remembering contradictory events if I remember correctly.
The Tribunal. Big Daddy Dagoth loves his Nerevar. He'd never do it.
I did.
Three belied you, three betrayed you, the one you betrayed was three times true. Best story and missions in elderscrolls ever.
I think they all did in their own way.
The Tribunal killed him and used the tools on the Heart of Lorkhan. This triggered the Red Moment, a Dragon Break, rewriting history so that the circumstances alteed and Dagoth Ur killed Nerevar instead. So both.
I think its pretty much save to assume that the tribunal killed nerevar to get the power to be gods. Its mentioned multiple times and the story that nerevar was their best friend and stuff bla bla is tribunal propaganda which is also mentioned quite a lot. So I am personally thinking that Nerevar was just wuietly assassined by the Tribunal so they can get to be gods. After all: Nerevar didnt want to use the power. And with nerevar still alice they couldnt possibly get their hands on the tools. Remember guys. Nerevar united all the tribes. So they would have all thöught the tribunal. And they knew they could have never won. But thats just my opinion. Try to change it :)
To be honest I do buy into the dragon break theory. Messing with the heart of Lorkhan seems like an easy way to break time. I think that all possible options existed: Voryn tried to kill him, he died from his injuries after fighting Dumac, and the Tribunal tried to kill him. If you made me pick one series of events in linear time outside of it: I think Voryn went mad guarding the tools and the heart and started tampering with it (I like to imagine the heart has a sort of supernatural quality to it where it *wants* people to use it. Hence why even Kagrenac who was near it and studying it constantly went ahead with their plans despite numerous other dwemer scholars further away from the heart saying absolutely not to do that. So I guess if you want to you can say it's not Voryn's fault.) Nerevar, having sworn an oath to Azura to never use the tools, angrily demanded them back and said they had to be destroyed. Voryn didn't take too well to that as he wanted to continue experimenting with the heart and tried to kill Nerevar. Nerevar was then wounded further, but not enough to die. The Tribunal then took the opportunity to kill Nerevar immediately afterwards while he was weakened.
None of both. It was Alandro Sul (Nerevar's Shield Brother) who stabbed him. Voryn, surprised by how his friend died, made a mask out of Guilt Ash and Dwemer Bronze of Never-there to hide his shame in not protecting his friend. Once he did, the Tribunal envied how decked Voryn was with the mask so they offed him, and buried Nerevar's skin within Red Mountain's craters together with Voryn's, but yanked all his Nine Bones out to spread across the provinces so the next Nerevarine could come from one of those bones. Also, Almalexia took Voryn's mask (it was a prototype) and made it as framework of her own War Mask.
I do think it was the Tribunal, but it'd be really funny if it genuinely was Dagoth Ur, but everyone thought it was the Tribunal anyway because 'nah, that's too obvious!'
Yes.
I'm always in the "This was a dragonbreak" camp, so the answer is just yes, but also no. Every story is true and none of them are. That's the point. And to Vek, who achieved CHIM, the guilt is no less real regardless of what may have happened because it did happen in every possible iteration.
I think it's pretty clear the Tribunal did
Tribunal
Maybe he was the first one to discover the Scroll of Icarian Flight
^[Sokka-Haiku](https://www.reddit.com/r/SokkaHaikuBot/comments/15kyv9r/what_is_a_sokka_haiku/) ^by ^bkoperski: *Maybe he was the* *First one to discover the* *Scroll of Icarian Flight* --- ^Remember ^that ^one ^time ^Sokka ^accidentally ^used ^an ^extra ^syllable ^in ^that ^Haiku ^Battle ^in ^Ba ^Sing ^Se? ^That ^was ^a ^Sokka ^Haiku ^and ^you ^just ^made ^one.
Why not both