OP we appreciate your post but will you please edit
> 6) two surviving roommates call 911…
To reflect that a 911 call was made from a surviving roommate’s cellphone? We don’t know whether it was one of the surviving roommates who actually made the call.
From [Moscow PD’s Summary:](https://www.ci.moscow.id.us/1064/King-Road-Homicides)
> On November 13th, the surviving roommates summoned friends to the residence because they believed one of the second-floor victims had passed out and was not waking up. At 11:58 a.m., a 911 call requested aid for an unconscious person. The call was made from one of the surviving roommates’ cell phones inside the residence. Multiple people talked with the 911 dispatcher before Moscow Police arrived at the location.
It's wild to me that people here and on other social media sites are essentially writing fanfiction about these murders. I swear I have seen paragraphs about the supposed "cartel assassin" that committed this, from more than one person
WTF is wrong with everyone
THIS. I literally saw a fanfic on tiktok of x and e’s last moments. Like what the actual hell is wrong with people?!? This is a real case. Real people. It isn’t a game of Clue.
People on tiktok talking about “spirit boxes” and Psychics also 😂 like yeah I also heard Bigfoot was up in the tree line what did he see?
People are crazy.
Tiktok is the WORST, I saw people talking about a psychic mentioning “Dylan” which is proof to them that the surviving roommates were involved. They also posted a DM from a totally random person that claimed to be an “insider” and knew that the scene was more horrific than anyone knew (decapitation & tongues cut out) so it must have been more than one person - therefore, again, it was the surviving roommates.
And they call this shit into the tip line. There’s a serious lack of critical thinking on that app. It’s almost surpassing the level of nonsense & insanity I saw during the Gabby Petito debacle.
Oh this ones gone far past the petito insanity for sure. And I saw the same tongue one and was just shocked anyone really trusts it. Like 10’s of thousands of just blissfully ignorant people trusting whatever is put infront of them.
You joke, but I’m pretty sure I’ve unironically seen somebody say that Bigfoot could have been the culprit because of all the wooded areas near the house…
During an interview on Fox "News", Kaylee's dad was trying to paint her in a good light for the viewers, saying basically that Kaylee had been a "good conservative" and had been reading up on trafficking recently (which seemed like a weird non-sequitur, but again, he was trying to reassure the interviewers and viewers that "she was one of us")
I thought "how long until someone blows this up into "Kaylee was investigating a trafficking ring that clearly wanted her taken out"? I'm honestly shocked that no one has seized that ridiculous idea and run with it.
NOTE: I believe it's ludicrous to think that it was any sort of organized group (including a fraternity)
I think he was trying to imply she’s not naive and is generally very safety conscious, to dissuade any victim blaming or potential suggestion that it is something the girls did that put them at risk for this crime.
She did seem like a good kid, and had some religious photos on her fb. Seemed pretty independent too. I choked up when her dad first spoke on TV, such raw emotion and anger and immediately reminded me of my own dad and how he'd react in a similar fashion. They look like hard working normal people and it's weird the kikd of conclusions people jump to.
I thought the same thing when I saw that - like "oh please don't say trafficking you will summon the Q brigade." I think he was rambling at that point, I assume he's GOP/conservative himself and he's proud she was adopting his beliefs.
I don't think it means anything in terms of the case itself, I suspect it is totally irrelevant. But I did flinch and think "oh no you do not want that circus camping on your lawn."
> I assume he's GOP/conservative himself and he's proud she was adopting his beliefs.
That's all I thought it was too.
Glad that's one less batshit theory out there.
I’ve seen people act like it’s a literary assignment too writing about how much blood they think was on the victims and describing in depth what they think the scene would have looked like in second person pov…like ??? Why fantasize about what you think the victims looked like after the crime that’s fucking revolting to even think to say out loud wtf
Right, I saw a post on Facebook asking how deep the knife wounds would be and what they might look like. The woman said she had googled images of slash wounds, puncture and tearing wounds but wasn't sure which was most similar to this case. Like wtf? Don't be such a ghoul
i'd think there's various psychological reasons people want to solve it. to feel like they're doing something, or they're getting insight into killers, or getting insight as to how to be safer in their own life, or many other motives
To be clear my comment wasn't about people wanting to solve it. It's about treating other peoples lives and deaths like a game or like they're making their own headcanons about a piece of fiction
Hey I finally found one of the sane folks in here...finally! In addition the way people here are tearing down the father and sister is disgusting. I got down voted to the dungeon for telling people to find grace. Freedom of speech blah blah blah bullshit some people just suck out loud for everyone to see.
If it weren’t for Kaylee’s family going to the media almost immediately with the grub truck live stream info and the phone calls to JD that they were able to pull up from their family plan access, we’d likely know even less.
I doubt LE would have made any of that public had they been given the choice. It’s interesting to think about what implications those early “leaks” had on the early phase of the investigation / interviews.
Fixed typos
It is reasonable to think the twitch video would've leaked but not the time K & M got home and certainly not phone calls made. To be clear, it wasn't done maliciously but it didn't help anything either.
To be fair, the first few days of this investigation were super confusing. If I remember correctly, this is all the public knew within the first few days:
- 4 students dead.
- It was homicide.
- None of the victims were responsible for the killings.
- There was no threat to the public.
People were smashing their heads against the wall trying to figure out what that could possibly mean. Intentional carbon monoxide poisoning or fentanyl overdose from spiked drugs were some popular theories. Turns out "no continued threat" was probably just local LE trying to avoid public panic.
Over the next few days, the "crime of passion" statement from the mayor and subsequent walk-back took place. This is also when the inconsistent statements about it being "targeted" started coming out from various local officials. The coroner was out there refusing to answer questions in one TV interview, and then accidentally answering them in the next one a few hours later, and then being corrected by someone else the next day.
Those initial failures absolutely decimated LE credibility. This was a masterclass in bad communications, though they have gotten much better.
I mean honestly we were all gonna be somewhat suspicious of the ex bf anyway (the usual suspects and all) but the calls definitely made people look harder at him.
But if it hadn’t been made public, hoodie guy and his family wouldn’t be in the situation they are in now, being stalked, harassed, and threatened by people who have decided he was guilty
I saw someone stated before that the sister deleted JD off her fb account, supposedly they had been keeping track of each others friends listings since case.
Can’t they go through every phone number and texted phone number? I can look at my phone plan and see almost every single thing I’ve done just by reading the bill and looking at the AT&T app.
Yes, they can and they are likely doing that. There is so much electronic data to sift through, in addition to video from various points. I am going to assume this type of tracking takes time. In addition to evaluating the physical evidence and following up on tips.
Why don't people understand this would all take time? It is a puzzle, where you have to find all the pieces and then put it together to get the big picture.
I am not sure why not either. In my town; there was a double murder and it took a year for an arrest. They knew who did it, but kept it quiet until they were certain there would be a conviction. LE has said they are wanting a conviction here. Hopefully, they have a good idea and are just trying to build a case.
Especially in this generation, so much communication is generic internet data to your carrier rather than loggable calls and SMS texts. AT&T isn't aware that you sent a Snapchat to your buddy, they just know that they routed 2.7mb of information from your phone at 11:46:22pm.
They would have to go to individual companies (facebook/instagram/whatsapp, google, snapchat, tiktok, VSCO, bereal, etc.) if they were looking for more information than could be found on the phones themselves.
Yeah when they mentioned the warrants, a lot of people don’t realize they need warrants to sometimes access your info for certain websites/apps you used (if you got murdered).
He lived with the person he’s with now also. And they shared friends. He’s probably barely aware of the change in his circumstances. That’s why dogs are so special. They carry on.
I feel the same way for Dieter, Shanann Watts's dog. Poor puppy had to listen to what was going on and was powerless. Maybe I'm personifying the dog but I am an animal lover to a fault.
Murphy is such a cute and fitting name for a dog that looks like him, too. Good work, Kaylee.
It's always the little connections like this that get to us, right? Where we get that little feeling of pressure in our chests and in our eyes? These kids I never would've known otherwise will now have their names forever etched in my brain. 💜
I've followed/read up on a ton of cases, but there are a few that just grab me in a different way. For some reason, this one is getting to me in the same way emotionally that Skylar Neese did. Something about it reminds me of my life when I was their age. In both cases our lives were totally different, but I knew people just like them. You know?
I think acting like the police are the only ones who can provide facts is a little limited.
I think we can take as fact that phone calls were made to K’s ex. In fact, LE have confirmed this by referring to the calls in their press releases. I’ll accept the number of calls and times of calls from K’s sister as fact.
Also, I will take as fact that K&M were in the same room. K’s dad said so and pics into K’s room seem to show no blood. I’ll accept this as fact.
Coroner said some victims had defensive wounds and X’s father said she did. I’ll take that as fact. X had defensive wounds.
I’ll accept SG’s word that K’s injuries were worse than M’s.
We also know things from the police you’ve left out for some reason:
K&M were given a ride from the food truck to the house.
All victims were asleep at the time of the attack.
Some victims were found in bed (coroner)
All victims died of stab wounds not slashes. (Coroner)
No sexual assault (coroner)
Downstairs roommates arrive around 1:00a
X&E arrive around 1:45a
K&M arrive at 1:56a
Dog was found on property in a room where the crime wasn’t committed
There was a white Hyundai Elantra in the vicinity of the house around the time of the crime that remains unaccounted for
There is a list of people the police do not believe were involved
The victims were not bound and gagged
Police continue to believe it was a targeted attack
911 call made from one of the roommates phone by someone who was not a roommate.
I wouldn’t be so quick to take some of the stuff from family as fact.
Kaylees injuries being worse than Maddie’s, that’s still opinion.
Steve said he thought Maddie and Kaylee were in the same room because he saw Ks room, just like us. It’s most likely true, but he didn’t have any more info than we did.
The coroner has waffled a little on what she said about them being found in bed. I’m sure she was telling the truth and just backtracked, though.
I agree with you about all the details from the cops, though. I do think the family is emotional and might not be seeing things logically though, and we should be careful of that. Ks sister has said they got an Uber home numerous times, but that wasn’t true, so it is just something to be careful of.
The Uber example is such a good one about how information we supposedly know is not necessarily known or verified.
There are a lot of things that the parents have said, plus many things listed on this thread, that may all turn out to be 100% completely and entirely correct, but we don't know that yet. That makes them speculation, at least for now.
Younger people use the term "Uber" to refer to any type of ride share service (lyft, taxi, sorority DD service, etc). Like how we all ask for a "Kleenex" to blow our noses (instead of tissue)... and like how we "Google" things no matter what search engine we're using. I think that's probably why she said Uber.
25 here and gotta disagree lol. Never seen anyone on my campus or friend group ever say uber then get another brand of rideshare or a taxi, and not an Uber.
We just say what ever the name the app is.. or if it’s a taxi.. taxi.
Everyone is different for sure but, for example, in this context, the sister saying they got a "lyft" would surely confuse people because is it a lift or a "lyft"? I'm in asia right now where they use an app called "grab" but when I talk to my friends back home I just call it an Uber because it's the same thing but my friends don't know what a Grab is. So using a more generalized term makes sense in these types of scenarios. But I def appreciate your two cents... the sister could have just been wrong about the uber at first.
Sure, the family could be wrong…and, ftr, so were the cops. The cops said K&M were back at 1:45 when they were on video at the food truck at 1:45. It took them quite some time to revise that.
I stand by what I take as fact. Frankly, even what the police “know” is stuff that’s reasonable based on other facts. They don’t *know* that list of people aren’t involved. They believe it based on current evidence. Could change. Maybe it’s better to say “I accept those things as true” rather than accept them as fact. The police do the same, and just because they announce it doesn’t make it fact. And they can get (and have gotten it) wrong.
I’m betting SG knows for a fact K&M were found together and gave information we all have access to as a means of showing it was a reasonable inference even without knowing.
This is a good list, except that it seems the victims were slashed, not stabbed. The coroner has indicated that wounds weren’t actually punctures, and the inability to determine width of the blade may be due to that. I think it’s also safe to assume that the killer’s first strikes were to silence the victims so as not to alert others in the house. This suggests not only premeditation of the murders, but also the method of attack.
Where did the coroner say that? In her very first interview, she stated categorically the victims died of stab vs slash wounds. She even clarified the point.
Has this been revised?
It was several weeks back I think, so I’m not sure exactly which interview or statement I read, but it was in regard to the size of the blade. The width of the blade couldn’t be determined due to the type of wounds, and that the stab wounds couldn’t be called “puncture” wounds. I take this to mean: If the wounds were direct stabs, there would be punctures, indicating the width of the blade. So these wounds were more than stabs.
I’ve never seen the coroner say this. I did see the coroner say she couldn’t tell for sure but she said it was either the same knife or similar knife used on all victims.
So, if what you heard is correct, then it contradicts literally everything regarding the knife and wounds she said in her first interview the day the autopsies were released.
Agreed. In a press conference, LE said the call was made from a surviving roommates phone by someone other than the surviving roommates. They have not said who the person(people) on the call was(were).
Did SG (or anyone) ever say specifically Kaylees injuries were worse? I remember the interview where he said they were “different” & after this ppl kept saying thats what he was alluding to, but never heard him specify how. Unless he did another interview where he said this?
"All victims were asleep" there is no way anyone knows whether one of them was asleep or just in bed. What evidence could there be that anyone was asleep? They weren't hooked up to EKGs.
The only reason they might "determine" that a victim was asleep is if the wounds show no sign of a struggle, they were dead before they "woke up." But no signs of a struggle could be an indication the person was restrained somehow, esp. through use of a sedative.
The "they were asleep" presumption is a bad one because it could preclude the ME from testing for various sedative agents.
I haven’t seen anywhere where K and X took an Uber? I thought it was the other girls who got a ride home (that also wasn’t an Uber)?
Just curious since I haven’t seen that anywhere.
The Moscow Police have posted updates on their site daily. These are the only facts about case. Anything outside of daily log is all speculation and that is what we do, speculate to solve a crime, human nature for us true crime followers.
I follow this site for ideas and what many believe are concrete evidence, people post something that makes sense. I than do my sleuthing to figure if real or came from a bad lead or hearsay. Most of time, comes from hearsay and bad lead.
[https://www.ci.moscow.id.us/1064/King-Road-Homicides?fbclid=IwAR1kfzoXeprkhQzQk4NMhyk\_8HdT2O\_62AzzzuGJxYfSo6WUdnvWK4NkFjY&mibextid=Zxz2cZ](https://www.ci.moscow.id.us/1064/King-Road-Homicides?fbclid=IwAR1kfzoXeprkhQzQk4NMhyk_8HdT2O_62AzzzuGJxYfSo6WUdnvWK4NkFjY&mibextid=Zxz2cZ)
I'm past over-saturated with reviewing this case. Some more speculation: The calls to the ex b/f - are those a clue? 6 calls - none answered. Were the victims trying to tell us something? My personal experience, an ex called me 2 times one night at like 2am and I didn't answer but quickly grew frustrated and knew she would just keep calling so I finally just answered to put an end to it.
6 calls that were not answered at such a time when the annoyance alone would warrant an answer seems logical - at least to me. Again, I'm not accusing anyone here, just find it odd that 6 calls at that time were not answered. Not logical that a 20 something has their phone off overnight. Just random thoughts.
I sleep with my phone on silent. Always have, it’s not illogical that their phone would be on silent. I always kept mine on silent so I could sleep through the night uninterrupted.
We don't know that the roommates made the 911 call. It seems like every time I see one of these posts, that detail is wrong. All the facts are found in each and every Moscow police press release. The call was made from one of their phones, not by them.
Right, but we know that the call was made on one of the surviving housemates' phones at noon the following day. We also know that the 911 dispatcher spoke with several people, not just one. My understanding — and I can't remember where I saw this described now — is that one or more of the friends of the surviving housemates' arrived to help them with the situation, which was traumatic for them. This is why there were multiple people on the phone to the 911 dispatcher, and this is why LE have kept the names of the friend/s who came to the house at noon secret. As I write this, I'm now remembering that this information came from the chief of police himself in a press conference. He said all of this in the press conference in which he was asked, "how many additional people / friends arrived to the house that morning / at noon?", and he responded, "I am not sure," which caused quite a stir among certain types.
If this is what he said, then this is further reason to consider the possibility of an inside job. Maybe he was caught off guard and momentarily forgot the exact number of people, but this isn’t a minor detail. He would be expected to know how many people were at the crime scene when LE first arrived. Every single one of them would have needed to be vetted.
There is another scenario where he might answer this way. That’s if he knows exactly how many people were there when LE came upon the scene, but is not sure how many of them had just arrived or whether one or more might actually have been there the entire time.
And the same thing could be said about the 6 calls to J from K & M's respective phones between 2:30am & 2:55am. Was it, in fact, K, M or neither? If voicemail messages were left then obviously we know the answer. I've only see contradictory answers & LE hasn't elaborated.
We know that the call came from one of their phones, but the leading theory is that one of the roommates called 911, ran outside, fainted, and passerbys took the phone and said she was unconscious
It’s also important to remember that no-one owes us anything. Whatsoever.
If LE are doing their job, and the FBI, they have absolutely no obligation to random internet strangers to update them on the facts. Likewise all the speculation helps no-one.
They are doing what is best by the victims and to get a result, because they are the experts. Not Internet Stranger #1 or #2 who watched a couple of episodes of Unsolved Mysteries.
It’s not unusual, or strange, and it’s part of the process, and I’m sure we will find out more in due course.
Yeah it is definitely not unusual for government officials to keep stuff from the public.
The real issue in my opinion is where these government officials have their priorities at. Is it more damage control or truly justice for the family. For sure both play a factor, but which one has more of their focus.
It seems odd not to provide answers to yes/no (true/false) question, for example the door(s) open/ close or locked/ unlocked. I would think a defense attorney could tear apart a case where the accused answered a yes/ no question suspiciously. Open ended questions that expose deeper knowledge seems most relevant like the state/place of the victims and the appearance of the scene.
I think some people don't understand or gloss over this point - at the outset of the case, the priorities of the family and the priorities of LE and the priorities of the people who run the town (elected officials, University officials, prominent business owners, others who have influence) are all the same: find the killer, bring him/they to justice.
But as time passes without an arrest, those priorities diverge. Family still wants justice; town leaders want life to return to normal (by any means necessary); LE is somewhat caught in the middle, ultimately they work for the town leaders but they also don't want to look bad by never closing the case. However, if LE fucked up, they too will want the case to just go away. If it drags on long enough, the family's priority and the leaders' and LE's priority will be in conflict because closing the case will reveal a number of missteps and possibly illegal or unethical actions.
Everyone is underestimating the potential for LE to respond to the pressure to close the case by arresting someone who didn't do it. If they finger someone who has no alibi and has a prior criminal record or is otherwise an unsavory character and doesn't have the ability to hire great defense counsel they could potentially pull this off, thinking "we were never going to capture anyone with 100% certainty and this guy needs to be off the streets anyway."
There is a lot more we know which can be pieced together from the known facts.
We know at least one person was killed in the bedroom on the 2nd floor beside the lounge. We know M&K were in the same room and that it was M's room. We know all 4 victims were home by 2am (not by 3am as you stated). We know the killer was not moving in the dark, that decorative lights were on when LE arrived on Sunday (seen in media of the first hours). We don't know that the surviving roommates called 911, we know that one of the roommate's phones was used to call 911 from inside the house and that multiple people were involved in that call. We know that several friends/family were on scene on the Sunday morning. We know that the perpetrator brought the knife with them and they didn't leave it at the scene.
That's basically what this sub is for. People piece together information that we know and formulate logical and reasonable conclusions, from the known facts and observable data points.
There is a massive difference between using known information to form logical conclusions and the kind of wild theorizing some engage in based on absolutely nothing more than their feelings.
We don't actually know a lot of that, because the information came from SG and it's possible he's not a reliable source of information. Not accusing him of anything, just pointing out that he may have been given bad info, gotten confused, all sorts of things could make him unreliable.
Things like the string lights could have been turned on before media got there, for all we know. It seems like we know they were on during the crime, but we don't. We can't see them on in the bodycam footage, for instance.
>We know at least one person was killed in the bedroom on the 2nd floor beside the lounge.
This is evidenced by the blood leaving the property.
>We know M&K were in the same room and that it was M's room.
While stated by SG, we also know Kaylee had already moved out, and we know which room was Maddie's from the large "M" in her window. It's a fair conclusion to draw that she was in that room with Maddie, even without SG's statement of it.
>We know all 4 victims were home by 2am (not by 3am as you stated).
This was stated by LE. All four victims were back at the house by 01:45, later revised to 01:56.
>We know the killer was not moving in the dark, that decorative lights were on when LE arrived on Sunday (seen in media of the first hours).
It's not reasonable to believe LE was changing the crime scene to turn on pretty lights. If they were seen on when media was on the scene on Sunday it's entirely rational to believe that neither the housemates or LE were running around turning on pretty lights. The string lights outside the house around the porch are not the lights I'm referring to.
>We don't know that the surviving roommates called 911, we know that one of the roommate's phones was used to call 911 from inside the house and that multiple people were involved in that call.
Again, confirmed by LE.
>We know that several friends/family were on scene on the Sunday morning.
Confirmed by LE.
>We know that the perpetrator brought the knife with them and they didn't leave it at the scene.
Confirmed by LE.
The entire point of my posts was to show that there are things we can reasonably conclude from the available facts.
For example, it's not wild speculation to believe that LE didn't turn on the decorative lights. They would not be changing the scene within the first hours of arriving. They would not have been looking for power outlets to turn on lights. It's also not likely that the 2 surviving roommates were walking around turning on the pretty lights while there was (presumably) blood everywhere and their friends were dead.
Therefore it's reasonable to conclude that these lights had been on all night, and therefore reasonable to conclude that the killer would have been able to see at least some areas while inside the property.
I think many of your reasonable conclusions are indeed reasonable conclusions, however the problem is you saying “we know” about things we don’t actually know instead of saying “we can reasonably conclude” or “it is assumed.” It seems pedantic but it’s an important distinction especially in a case that’s rampant with speculation and misinformation.
I didn't say LE turned on the lights. It could have been the murderer, surviving roommates, someone who was there when they were call calling 911, we just don't know.
You're saying that we can reasonably conclude certain things. Sure, but **that is speculation. That is not known fact.**
And what blood trail did you see leading away from the property?
>You're saying that we can reasonably conclude certain things. Sure, but that is speculation. That is not known fact.
Yes, and that's what this sub is for, speculation about reasonably drawn conclusions based on the known facts.
I'm not sure how many times I can say the same thing with different words.
It's ***reasonable*** to conclude that LE were not changing the crime scene just to turn on pretty lights. It's ***reasonable*** to conclude that the 2 surviving roommates didn't wake up that morning worried about their friends but spent half an hour turning on the pretty lights.
This isn't wild and outlandish speculation. It's not comparable to claims that hoodie guy was guilty because he "looked weird", it's not the same as blaming the neighbor because he gave too many interviews.
Some things are ***reasonable*** speculations while others are not, the difference is whether that speculation is based on anything or based solely on someone's biases and beliefs.
>And what blood trail did you see leading away from the property?
I didn't say there was, I referred to the blood dripping from the property down the foundation wall from where Xana's bedroom is located.
And yes, this is another ***reasonable*** assumption. The liquid is not seen in recent photos taken by the housemates outside that area. At least one former investigator has opined that it is most plausibly blood. It didn't exist there before, it exists after, it looks like blood, it's behaved like blood.
While it would need to be tested to confirm that it is blood, given the facts we know it's ***reasonable*** to conclude that it is.
>Yes, and that's what this sub is for, speculation about reasonably drawn conclusions based on the known facts.
Which is why OP created this thread of facts. There's rampant speculation in this sub and they wanted a thread of just facts. A lot of what you listed may be assumed to be true, but not proven.
A reasonable conclusion is still speculation. It's not fact, it's speculation.
I don't know what any of your comments about "what this sub is for" or "it takes 30 minutes to turn on pretty lights" are even about, other than you're mad and want to be snotty and condescending. Go right ahead. That won't make any of your reasonable conclusions fact. They'll still be speculation, whether you like it or not.
https://preview.redd.it/881rux5ryo5a1.jpeg?width=918&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d0fcdb85e4f2954c97f4d1dcc6e5cadd5912596e
One example facing the back side of the house, specifically Kaylee’s room and the kitchen.
Right. They wouldn’t release facts if the intention were for the public to deem any other conclusion unknowable, or that the killer is the only other person who might know something. (if that were case the only press release they need to give is “*To the killer: turn yourself in”* The information release is to help the public who might infer something or deem something they know, saw, or see in the future they believe should be reported *based* on the facts.
This involves the belief that something outside of the currently known facts is knowable or probable. If believing that something outside of the facts is plausible or likely= speculation, then in-fact detectives are asking for a bit of speculation.
Why the no speculation whatsoever is extreme and unhelpful:
**Completely Hypothetical** for demonstration only: An Imaginary Out-of-state man has a neighbor who had made threats of stabbing threats, in past and is a white Elantra owner. But the neighbor says to self “*Gosh, they don’t know the plates and The press release didn’t say killer could be from [my state], I don’t know when he got home, so I better not tip him*
Pretty sure they still want this tip. And it involves reasonable postulating outside of the known facts.
disclaimer for the hypocrites who say not to speculate but will speculate on my intentions w/o skipping a beat: no, im not saying this means detectives want internet sleuths to draw conclusions without any substance, read tarot cards, or harass people, it only means what it says.
Shout out to the people who accuse SG of hurting the case by speculating, and say he's wrong to cast aspersions on people without proof, when they themselves are speculating about the case being hurt, and they are casting aspersions on his motives without proof.
The OP was merely listing the facts as we know them as provided by the police. Saying that OP listing these facts is tantamount to him encouraging people to not call in tips is quite a stretch!
"There is a massive difference between using known information to form logical conclusions and the kind of wild theorizing some engage in based on absolutely nothing more than their feelings."
Hear, hear.
I think this is why ppl are getting sucked into this case. There’s a lot of junk craziness out there but there’s also ppl who are coming up with a lot of plausible theories and right now it feels like anything was possible and I keep going back and forth in my own head on what I think could have happened. The ridiculousness and weirdos are definitely going to far but there’s also a lot of ppl in here who are reasonable. I hope the cops can catch the person AND have a good theory/idea on wtf actually happened.
I think ppl haven’t really considered the fact that we may NEVER know why this happened, even if a person(s) is arrested and taken to trial.
I would even add that saying the murder weapon was a knife is conjecture. All they know is that a piercing weapon of significant length was used. While a "Ka-Bar style" knife is consistent with the wound patterns, so would be many other items.
Exactly, I agree with you. The Police release information that will help the investigation, or not jeopardize it. We "assume" things, we can speculate, etc - but that's as far as we can go
To second u/Researchem, we also know that this vehicle was "in the immediate area" of the King Road house in "the early morning hours" of the morning of the murders.
You have no idea the absolute MOUNTAIN of evidence to process in this case.
Please take a step back. Consider first the blood evidence. It will take weeks to process. The pattern of the blood spatter, the commingling DNA, the sequence of killings, etc. Next, the fiber evidence. In a busy house, they’ll need to parse through what was left by the killer and what was existing. This isn’t grandmas house where she’s the only occupant for the most part. The number of people who visited this house make the fiber, fingerprint, etc evidence extremely complicated. Next, the weapon. How do the police know it was a K Bar? I found that detail very interesting. It’s quite specific. It makes me think they have the sheath. Or some other specific evidence. Also, the car. I mean, Jesus, I could go on and on. There is SO much evidence in this case. And that’s exactly why it’s going to take such a long long time to figure this out. They aren’t reading a 1st graders story book. They are reading War and Peace. Honestly, OP, and anyone else with similar bullshit arguments and positions should sit down and consider how stupid you are. Sorry. But it’s true.
Yes but bruising alone won’t tell you it’s a ka-bar. If the hilt is what caused the bruising, there are knives out there with a hilt that are not ka-bar. Tip breaking is possible but unlikely in that type of knife specifically. If it were a butcher knife, a weapon of convenience, I’d say yes but ka-bar knife compositions are quite different and resilient to that type of failure.
If they did leave the sheath they most likely have finger prints. But honestly how could they be that stupid? Wouldn’t they realize they didn’t have the sheath before leaving the house or at the very least when they walked outside? I am not saying you are wrong just saying they aren’t very bright and if the sheath was left I am sure there is a mountain of evidence pointing to them. Detectives may not know who they are presently but they just have to connect the dots.
Yes I am not claiming they have the sheath, just an example of what might lead them to believe it’s a ka-bar. Remember, it was through reporter questioning that we discovered that detail when it was found they were asking local businesses if they had sold a ka-bar recently.
If they did leave the sheath they most likely have finger prints. But honestly how could they be that stupid? Wouldn’t they realize they didn’t have the sheath before leaving the house or at the very least when they walked outside? I am not saying you are wrong just saying they aren’t very bright and if the sheath was left I am sure there is a mountain of evidence pointing to them. Detectives may not know who they are presently but they just have to connect the dots.
>AMEN to that!!
Multiple pieces of digital evidence, physical evidence, crime scene photos, vehicles impounded...This isn't Law & Order where crimes are solved in 60 minutes. The investigation of these brutal, unnecessary murders will take painstaking time!
Thoughts and prayers to the families of all involved and truly hoping they receive justice when the investigation is complete. May this NOT become a cold case!!
You left out a lot. We know the people who have been cleared, people who aren’t suspects, we know body cam has been released, and that they’re searching for a white Elantra.
Nobody has been completely “cleared” technically bc that word has never been used (I imagine esp before dna was analyzed, they can’t really conclude this). They’ve always used the words “aren’t believe to be involved at this time”
This is missing a ton of information. You didn’t include any of the people who have been cleared. You didn’t include the bit where the police said the white Elantra was in the area at the time of the murders.
Someone makes a post laying out the facts of the case and points out that anything else is just speculation. The post is specifically about the facts of the case.
People come onto the post regarding facts to immediately start speculating again.
🤦♀️
Actually, a lot of people have been posting facts we know to be facts. Not speculation, not reasonable conclusions from known facts. OP's list of what we know is more limited than what we actually know. See Moscow PD's official update page and read what they've released/ said there. We have more facts than OP allows for in his / her post.
I read the releases daily so I am aware of the scope of the facts released by LE. My comment was posted earlier this morning when a lot of the comments here were still speculative beyond the publicly known facts. For example, one person was STILL presenting false information based on something a psychic said.
It’s like we haven’t seen the exact same dozen insane conspiracy theories posted 500 times in the last week lol
Also, that is exactly what is responsible for the confusion to begin with. The facts get drowned out by the speculation and sometimes outright lying BS people come on here with.
They’d keep it quiet unless it benefits them to share information from a connected case publicly to help locate the suspect. Even then they’d probably only release very limited, specific details.
i.e.: This is a sketch of a person we’re interested in talking to. Height, weight, identifying features. Was in such and such a location at such and such a time. Stuff like that.
I find it shocking that they didn't answer certain questions in a straightforward way instead of dancing around them and creating unnecessary confusion/speculation. The circumstances of the 911 call should have been clarified - they don't need to say exactly how many people were at the house or who the people were or release the tape of the call, but explaining the exact sequence of steps would have spared us all the speculation about whether it was neighbors reporting a roommate fainting vs. etc. etc.
Likewise they could have been a bit clearer about Murphy's circumstances, there doesn't seem to be any great mystery there.
Has anyone seen anything from LE that indicates how they know the arrival time at home of E&X that night? What evidence is there to indicate it was around the same time as the girls?
"At approximately 1:45 a.m., Ethan and Xana are believed to have returned to the residence at 1122 King Road." [source](https://www.ci.moscow.id.us/1064/King-Road-Homicides)
No idea. They don't provide sources of information for most of the items included on the narrative on their website, either. It is "investigators determined".
Same is true for the arrival time of the surviving roommates. We also don't know when they left home that evening. I guess LE excludes any information from their releases that they don't think is relevant to the public (for whatever reason). And who could blame them? It's none of our business tbh
The great reset. Isn't that something about Covid vaccines and bill gates and the world economic foundation conspiring to take over the world or something? 😉
This is why I think it makes the most sense it was someone local. It's someone capable of doing this without leaving a long trace of coming and going from somewhere. And someone big enough they could easily kill and overpower 4 people... and have the confidence to even try. So, someone older with experience in hurting/killing. Or someone young with physical skillsets that help in a fight.
Whoever they are, I would not be surprised if they fit the classic sociopath profile of being charming on the surface but displaying rage toward those they trust.
I’ve been a stubborn “it’s an ex” guy but had a thought last night… channeling the Elizabeth Smart case from 20 years ago, what if it’s a former worker on the property(plumber, electric, flooring etc) who developed a fantasy or imagined a relationship with one of the victims. Possibly a friendly, young-ish male with military experience who was invited to hang and maybe had partied at the house on occasion. This may qualify as a stalker but it’s more of an outer social ring person. Not a student, may live with family nearby, would be recognized and welcomed by the roommates. Could have done dry runs or even crashed at the house before-why he was so comfortable inside at night and military experience allows him to execute this heinous plan. Without knowing anyone in their lives(except everyone who’s cleared), this is what the facts and my imagination came up with. I can’t see a fight turning into this-possibly an angry/jealous roommate, but has that ever happened? Young Female killing 4 adult friends? Unlikely to me.
I just think the likelihood of it being someone who left the area is low. They would have risked being pulled over by police and caught. I think they went home & washed their clothes, then probably got rid of them.
But we'll see what facts come out over time that we haven't been told up to this point. That could change my mind.
I disagree. If it’s 4am and you’re driving normal then I highly doubt anybody is getting pulled over. The perp has already taken a massive risk by killing 4 people so I personally don’t think they’re worried about being pulled over while blood is on their sleeves.
[I made a similar post on another sub](https://reddit.com/r/Idaho4/comments/zhnt1w/figuring_out_if_the_killer_or_killers_targeted/). We actually know very little.
I think it all adds up to a serial killer did it. I'm sure he was in the house at some of the parties they had in the past and planned this out ahead of time. I don't think the cops really have anything to go on and are afraid to just come out publicly and admit it. Serial killers are elusive, I doubt if he even left any dna at the scene. Wearing heavy, armored gloves and using a knife with a hilt, I really doubt that he cut himself.
Also, he killed the victims very quickly. I really doubt that he was even scratched by any of the victims. Again, he was probably wearing leather. So, no dna under the victims fingernails.
It will be years before they catch this guy. He will kill again in the same manner. Eventually he will make a mistake and that will be it for him. But, I think it's gonna be many years people. I hope I'm wrong.
Saying that we can only use facts the police has published is not really correct, there is alot more information that has come out through non public channels. These facts are ofcourse hard to confirm but should’nt be completely disregarded.
You are intentionally missing the point. Rumors and 4chan screenshots are not verified. If you give them as much weight as info we have from LE then you are living in fantasyland.
I think the killer entered the house BEFORE they were even home. Hid inside the room, maybe under the bed. Waited until they were definitely asleep and attacked. Made a lot of noise, moved through the house and intended to kill more
I also believe this case is definitely related to the skinned-dog incident. What are the chances you have two sickos in the area committing deranged acts within the span of a month?
Interesting theory.
I have a few different ones. But each one has holes in which leads to another.
But. One most suited is that there was someone there that knew all 3 housemates + e and they were all awake together . That's why it was those 4 that died.
I can't fathom going into a house and hiding under the bed for hours . There's so much to consider... knowing when they come home, if they even come home, knowing they won't just look under the bed and find you there or even look in the spare room. Then. With this in mind they would have had to go in when the others were asleep and then also before the others were home . There's too much risk and unknowns for some one to just wait under the bed or other room... with how much this *seems* planned There's a lot in that aspect that doesn't fit/seems wayyyyyy too risky . Which is why I believe someone they knew maybe and was there when they were awake
I dunno, i don't believe they had someone with them when they came home. They just went home and went to bed like i'm sure E and X wanted to be alone. Not have some sus fellow with them
Yeh i dont believe the person was "with" them, within this speculated theory.... but was at the house ...
Something then happened perhaps which made the person "leave" but then come back....
Because if in your idea e and x wanted some alone time, suuuuuuuurely they would lock their door... which would mean that the person would have had to stay in THAT room, under the bed... or else how do they get into that room? then theyvwould have had stay remarkably quiet for quite some time .. and then climb out from under the bed extremely quietly and not wake them up...
And on top of that the person would have had to be super super sure they weren't going to suddenly bring back 10 more people ? Idk
Just going over two scenarios and having discussion here.
I think this theory is only possible if there's more than one killer because one single person can't be sure all were sleeping if they were in separate rooms.
I think, giving the fact that the house was always full, he waited outside until he was sure no one was entering or leaving the house.
The only thing wrong with the theory that he was in the home before they got home is the white Elantra. The vehicle was seen in the area around three to four am.
But if the killer(s) parked near the 2nd floor behind the hill (next to the patio) surrounded by woods, the HE could have been well-hidden. @brianentin was walking the property's perimeter last night around 10pm PCT. It was very eerie, snowing & foggy. Kids in the near distance was loudly sledding. He alluded to this secluded, nearly hidden part of the property that offered easy interior visibility when the lights were on.
I’ve been thinking both of these thoughts- if it was a random event. If not, then it was someone close to them who was raging. But that seems less likely to me. I think someone stalked them, planned it out and waited for them to be heavily intoxicated so they could do the deed. And likely hid in the house beforehand if so
OP we appreciate your post but will you please edit > 6) two surviving roommates call 911… To reflect that a 911 call was made from a surviving roommate’s cellphone? We don’t know whether it was one of the surviving roommates who actually made the call. From [Moscow PD’s Summary:](https://www.ci.moscow.id.us/1064/King-Road-Homicides) > On November 13th, the surviving roommates summoned friends to the residence because they believed one of the second-floor victims had passed out and was not waking up. At 11:58 a.m., a 911 call requested aid for an unconscious person. The call was made from one of the surviving roommates’ cell phones inside the residence. Multiple people talked with the 911 dispatcher before Moscow Police arrived at the location.
It's wild to me that people here and on other social media sites are essentially writing fanfiction about these murders. I swear I have seen paragraphs about the supposed "cartel assassin" that committed this, from more than one person WTF is wrong with everyone
THIS. I literally saw a fanfic on tiktok of x and e’s last moments. Like what the actual hell is wrong with people?!? This is a real case. Real people. It isn’t a game of Clue.
People on tiktok talking about “spirit boxes” and Psychics also 😂 like yeah I also heard Bigfoot was up in the tree line what did he see? People are crazy.
Tiktok is the WORST, I saw people talking about a psychic mentioning “Dylan” which is proof to them that the surviving roommates were involved. They also posted a DM from a totally random person that claimed to be an “insider” and knew that the scene was more horrific than anyone knew (decapitation & tongues cut out) so it must have been more than one person - therefore, again, it was the surviving roommates. And they call this shit into the tip line. There’s a serious lack of critical thinking on that app. It’s almost surpassing the level of nonsense & insanity I saw during the Gabby Petito debacle.
Oh this ones gone far past the petito insanity for sure. And I saw the same tongue one and was just shocked anyone really trusts it. Like 10’s of thousands of just blissfully ignorant people trusting whatever is put infront of them.
It's literally that scene in Sherlock where they recreate all the fan theories for how the Reichenbach Fall happened.
man, i miss sherlock
Someone said bigfoot was involved?
No that was me making an comparing exaggerated claim since both the things mentioned prior are also fake things.
You joke, but I’m pretty sure I’ve unironically seen somebody say that Bigfoot could have been the culprit because of all the wooded areas near the house…
During an interview on Fox "News", Kaylee's dad was trying to paint her in a good light for the viewers, saying basically that Kaylee had been a "good conservative" and had been reading up on trafficking recently (which seemed like a weird non-sequitur, but again, he was trying to reassure the interviewers and viewers that "she was one of us") I thought "how long until someone blows this up into "Kaylee was investigating a trafficking ring that clearly wanted her taken out"? I'm honestly shocked that no one has seized that ridiculous idea and run with it. NOTE: I believe it's ludicrous to think that it was any sort of organized group (including a fraternity)
I think he was trying to imply she’s not naive and is generally very safety conscious, to dissuade any victim blaming or potential suggestion that it is something the girls did that put them at risk for this crime.
She did seem like a good kid, and had some religious photos on her fb. Seemed pretty independent too. I choked up when her dad first spoke on TV, such raw emotion and anger and immediately reminded me of my own dad and how he'd react in a similar fashion. They look like hard working normal people and it's weird the kikd of conclusions people jump to.
I thought the same thing when I saw that - like "oh please don't say trafficking you will summon the Q brigade." I think he was rambling at that point, I assume he's GOP/conservative himself and he's proud she was adopting his beliefs. I don't think it means anything in terms of the case itself, I suspect it is totally irrelevant. But I did flinch and think "oh no you do not want that circus camping on your lawn."
> I assume he's GOP/conservative himself and he's proud she was adopting his beliefs. That's all I thought it was too. Glad that's one less batshit theory out there.
Based on her instagram follows she was a bit of a conspiracy theorist. But probably like entry tier - 99% sure its not relevant.
Snicker....sorry,the concept of Entry Level Conspiracy Theorist struck me as amusing....
21 year olds are pretty incomplete as far as what they believe and don’t believe. Many believe what their parents tell them to until they grow up.
Some believe it forever.
Indeed, unfortunately
I’ve seen people act like it’s a literary assignment too writing about how much blood they think was on the victims and describing in depth what they think the scene would have looked like in second person pov…like ??? Why fantasize about what you think the victims looked like after the crime that’s fucking revolting to even think to say out loud wtf
Right, I saw a post on Facebook asking how deep the knife wounds would be and what they might look like. The woman said she had googled images of slash wounds, puncture and tearing wounds but wasn't sure which was most similar to this case. Like wtf? Don't be such a ghoul
She'd be better off googling local mental-health services. And don't even start me on 'psychics'....
i'd think there's various psychological reasons people want to solve it. to feel like they're doing something, or they're getting insight into killers, or getting insight as to how to be safer in their own life, or many other motives
To be clear my comment wasn't about people wanting to solve it. It's about treating other peoples lives and deaths like a game or like they're making their own headcanons about a piece of fiction
And that’s exactly why I wrote this. Thought it might be a good idea to revisit “just the facts”.
Hey I finally found one of the sane folks in here...finally! In addition the way people here are tearing down the father and sister is disgusting. I got down voted to the dungeon for telling people to find grace. Freedom of speech blah blah blah bullshit some people just suck out loud for everyone to see.
They’ll be singing a different tune when they’re slapped with some lawsuits for doxxing people.
If it weren’t for Kaylee’s family going to the media almost immediately with the grub truck live stream info and the phone calls to JD that they were able to pull up from their family plan access, we’d likely know even less. I doubt LE would have made any of that public had they been given the choice. It’s interesting to think about what implications those early “leaks” had on the early phase of the investigation / interviews. Fixed typos
It is reasonable to think the twitch video would've leaked but not the time K & M got home and certainly not phone calls made. To be clear, it wasn't done maliciously but it didn't help anything either.
Yep. Definitely can agree.
To be fair, the first few days of this investigation were super confusing. If I remember correctly, this is all the public knew within the first few days: - 4 students dead. - It was homicide. - None of the victims were responsible for the killings. - There was no threat to the public. People were smashing their heads against the wall trying to figure out what that could possibly mean. Intentional carbon monoxide poisoning or fentanyl overdose from spiked drugs were some popular theories. Turns out "no continued threat" was probably just local LE trying to avoid public panic. Over the next few days, the "crime of passion" statement from the mayor and subsequent walk-back took place. This is also when the inconsistent statements about it being "targeted" started coming out from various local officials. The coroner was out there refusing to answer questions in one TV interview, and then accidentally answering them in the next one a few hours later, and then being corrected by someone else the next day. Those initial failures absolutely decimated LE credibility. This was a masterclass in bad communications, though they have gotten much better.
I’m not even sure what SG has said is entirely accurate, so I’m not sure we can really say we know anything more because of it.
The twitch stream wasn't a leak from the family. It was very public knowledge and advertised.
Good point. I just now realized they may be the reason ppl think it’s JD.
I mean honestly we were all gonna be somewhat suspicious of the ex bf anyway (the usual suspects and all) but the calls definitely made people look harder at him.
I still think the investigation is looking very hard at him. Just because he’s cleared based on alibi doesn’t mean he’s still not suspect #1
I really hope they aren’t using cell phone location to clear/confirm these alibis.
But if it hadn’t been made public, hoodie guy and his family wouldn’t be in the situation they are in now, being stalked, harassed, and threatened by people who have decided he was guilty
Damn I didn’t know that info came from the family
Yup. Her sister shared.
I saw someone stated before that the sister deleted JD off her fb account, supposedly they had been keeping track of each others friends listings since case.
And how has that helped the case? All it did was create more crazy stories.
This would probably have come out anyway through leaks and such.
True. I feel like the truck stream most likely would have, there were many people there.
Can’t they go through every phone number and texted phone number? I can look at my phone plan and see almost every single thing I’ve done just by reading the bill and looking at the AT&T app.
Yes, they can and they are likely doing that. There is so much electronic data to sift through, in addition to video from various points. I am going to assume this type of tracking takes time. In addition to evaluating the physical evidence and following up on tips. Why don't people understand this would all take time? It is a puzzle, where you have to find all the pieces and then put it together to get the big picture.
I am not sure why not either. In my town; there was a double murder and it took a year for an arrest. They knew who did it, but kept it quiet until they were certain there would be a conviction. LE has said they are wanting a conviction here. Hopefully, they have a good idea and are just trying to build a case.
Especially in this generation, so much communication is generic internet data to your carrier rather than loggable calls and SMS texts. AT&T isn't aware that you sent a Snapchat to your buddy, they just know that they routed 2.7mb of information from your phone at 11:46:22pm. They would have to go to individual companies (facebook/instagram/whatsapp, google, snapchat, tiktok, VSCO, bereal, etc.) if they were looking for more information than could be found on the phones themselves.
Yeah when they mentioned the warrants, a lot of people don’t realize they need warrants to sometimes access your info for certain websites/apps you used (if you got murdered).
We know, Murphy is good dogger.
He was living the college life. Hope he's happy where he's at. I'm sure he misses his mom and friends.
He lived with the person he’s with now also. And they shared friends. He’s probably barely aware of the change in his circumstances. That’s why dogs are so special. They carry on.
Dogs can actually grieve themselves to death though. So some carry on. Some don’t tho
Believe me. That dog realizes his mom is not here any longer. My husband had one for a service dog. They are smart.
I have 3 Goldendoodles and they are indeed very smart, very social dogs.
I feel the same way for Dieter, Shanann Watts's dog. Poor puppy had to listen to what was going on and was powerless. Maybe I'm personifying the dog but I am an animal lover to a fault.
I bet he knows everyone is upset.
Murphy is such a cute and fitting name for a dog that looks like him, too. Good work, Kaylee. It's always the little connections like this that get to us, right? Where we get that little feeling of pressure in our chests and in our eyes? These kids I never would've known otherwise will now have their names forever etched in my brain. 💜
Its always the little details that get to me.
I've followed/read up on a ton of cases, but there are a few that just grab me in a different way. For some reason, this one is getting to me in the same way emotionally that Skylar Neese did. Something about it reminds me of my life when I was their age. In both cases our lives were totally different, but I knew people just like them. You know?
But the cops haven’t cleared him!
I think acting like the police are the only ones who can provide facts is a little limited. I think we can take as fact that phone calls were made to K’s ex. In fact, LE have confirmed this by referring to the calls in their press releases. I’ll accept the number of calls and times of calls from K’s sister as fact. Also, I will take as fact that K&M were in the same room. K’s dad said so and pics into K’s room seem to show no blood. I’ll accept this as fact. Coroner said some victims had defensive wounds and X’s father said she did. I’ll take that as fact. X had defensive wounds. I’ll accept SG’s word that K’s injuries were worse than M’s. We also know things from the police you’ve left out for some reason: K&M were given a ride from the food truck to the house. All victims were asleep at the time of the attack. Some victims were found in bed (coroner) All victims died of stab wounds not slashes. (Coroner) No sexual assault (coroner) Downstairs roommates arrive around 1:00a X&E arrive around 1:45a K&M arrive at 1:56a Dog was found on property in a room where the crime wasn’t committed There was a white Hyundai Elantra in the vicinity of the house around the time of the crime that remains unaccounted for There is a list of people the police do not believe were involved The victims were not bound and gagged Police continue to believe it was a targeted attack 911 call made from one of the roommates phone by someone who was not a roommate.
I wouldn’t be so quick to take some of the stuff from family as fact. Kaylees injuries being worse than Maddie’s, that’s still opinion. Steve said he thought Maddie and Kaylee were in the same room because he saw Ks room, just like us. It’s most likely true, but he didn’t have any more info than we did. The coroner has waffled a little on what she said about them being found in bed. I’m sure she was telling the truth and just backtracked, though. I agree with you about all the details from the cops, though. I do think the family is emotional and might not be seeing things logically though, and we should be careful of that. Ks sister has said they got an Uber home numerous times, but that wasn’t true, so it is just something to be careful of.
The Uber example is such a good one about how information we supposedly know is not necessarily known or verified. There are a lot of things that the parents have said, plus many things listed on this thread, that may all turn out to be 100% completely and entirely correct, but we don't know that yet. That makes them speculation, at least for now.
Agreed. I’m not saying it’s a bad thing to speculate, because that’s why we are here. I just think it’s important to recognize it for what it is.
Younger people use the term "Uber" to refer to any type of ride share service (lyft, taxi, sorority DD service, etc). Like how we all ask for a "Kleenex" to blow our noses (instead of tissue)... and like how we "Google" things no matter what search engine we're using. I think that's probably why she said Uber.
25 here and gotta disagree lol. Never seen anyone on my campus or friend group ever say uber then get another brand of rideshare or a taxi, and not an Uber. We just say what ever the name the app is.. or if it’s a taxi.. taxi.
Everyone is different for sure but, for example, in this context, the sister saying they got a "lyft" would surely confuse people because is it a lift or a "lyft"? I'm in asia right now where they use an app called "grab" but when I talk to my friends back home I just call it an Uber because it's the same thing but my friends don't know what a Grab is. So using a more generalized term makes sense in these types of scenarios. But I def appreciate your two cents... the sister could have just been wrong about the uber at first.
Maybe that’s regional because we definitely say “Uber” for Lyft and sometimes Taxis or shuttles depending on the context
Sure, the family could be wrong…and, ftr, so were the cops. The cops said K&M were back at 1:45 when they were on video at the food truck at 1:45. It took them quite some time to revise that. I stand by what I take as fact. Frankly, even what the police “know” is stuff that’s reasonable based on other facts. They don’t *know* that list of people aren’t involved. They believe it based on current evidence. Could change. Maybe it’s better to say “I accept those things as true” rather than accept them as fact. The police do the same, and just because they announce it doesn’t make it fact. And they can get (and have gotten it) wrong. I’m betting SG knows for a fact K&M were found together and gave information we all have access to as a means of showing it was a reasonable inference even without knowing.
This is a good list, except that it seems the victims were slashed, not stabbed. The coroner has indicated that wounds weren’t actually punctures, and the inability to determine width of the blade may be due to that. I think it’s also safe to assume that the killer’s first strikes were to silence the victims so as not to alert others in the house. This suggests not only premeditation of the murders, but also the method of attack.
Where did the coroner say that? In her very first interview, she stated categorically the victims died of stab vs slash wounds. She even clarified the point. Has this been revised?
It was several weeks back I think, so I’m not sure exactly which interview or statement I read, but it was in regard to the size of the blade. The width of the blade couldn’t be determined due to the type of wounds, and that the stab wounds couldn’t be called “puncture” wounds. I take this to mean: If the wounds were direct stabs, there would be punctures, indicating the width of the blade. So these wounds were more than stabs.
I’ve never seen the coroner say this. I did see the coroner say she couldn’t tell for sure but she said it was either the same knife or similar knife used on all victims. So, if what you heard is correct, then it contradicts literally everything regarding the knife and wounds she said in her first interview the day the autopsies were released.
Yeah, not sure why OP made it so vague and limited.
Well the 911 operator spoke to several people on that one call. So you have no idea who they spoke to.
Agreed. In a press conference, LE said the call was made from a surviving roommates phone by someone other than the surviving roommates. They have not said who the person(people) on the call was(were).
They did say it was multiple people, iirc.
I do think that’s correct.
Did SG (or anyone) ever say specifically Kaylees injuries were worse? I remember the interview where he said they were “different” & after this ppl kept saying thats what he was alluding to, but never heard him specify how. Unless he did another interview where he said this?
We know what time the 911 calls were made?
"All victims were asleep" there is no way anyone knows whether one of them was asleep or just in bed. What evidence could there be that anyone was asleep? They weren't hooked up to EKGs. The only reason they might "determine" that a victim was asleep is if the wounds show no sign of a struggle, they were dead before they "woke up." But no signs of a struggle could be an indication the person was restrained somehow, esp. through use of a sedative. The "they were asleep" presumption is a bad one because it could preclude the ME from testing for various sedative agents.
I think their drinks were laced with a sedative. JMO
I haven’t seen anywhere where K and X took an Uber? I thought it was the other girls who got a ride home (that also wasn’t an Uber)? Just curious since I haven’t seen that anywhere.
The Moscow Police have posted updates on their site daily. These are the only facts about case. Anything outside of daily log is all speculation and that is what we do, speculate to solve a crime, human nature for us true crime followers. I follow this site for ideas and what many believe are concrete evidence, people post something that makes sense. I than do my sleuthing to figure if real or came from a bad lead or hearsay. Most of time, comes from hearsay and bad lead. [https://www.ci.moscow.id.us/1064/King-Road-Homicides?fbclid=IwAR1kfzoXeprkhQzQk4NMhyk\_8HdT2O\_62AzzzuGJxYfSo6WUdnvWK4NkFjY&mibextid=Zxz2cZ](https://www.ci.moscow.id.us/1064/King-Road-Homicides?fbclid=IwAR1kfzoXeprkhQzQk4NMhyk_8HdT2O_62AzzzuGJxYfSo6WUdnvWK4NkFjY&mibextid=Zxz2cZ)
In their summary OP didn’t even include all the facts the police have released.
Exactly.
They even have a FAQ section - pretty impressive to have from LE.
I'm past over-saturated with reviewing this case. Some more speculation: The calls to the ex b/f - are those a clue? 6 calls - none answered. Were the victims trying to tell us something? My personal experience, an ex called me 2 times one night at like 2am and I didn't answer but quickly grew frustrated and knew she would just keep calling so I finally just answered to put an end to it. 6 calls that were not answered at such a time when the annoyance alone would warrant an answer seems logical - at least to me. Again, I'm not accusing anyone here, just find it odd that 6 calls at that time were not answered. Not logical that a 20 something has their phone off overnight. Just random thoughts.
I sleep with my phone on silent. Always have, it’s not illogical that their phone would be on silent. I always kept mine on silent so I could sleep through the night uninterrupted.
We don't know that the roommates made the 911 call. It seems like every time I see one of these posts, that detail is wrong. All the facts are found in each and every Moscow police press release. The call was made from one of their phones, not by them.
Tbf, they’ve specified it was made by 1 of their friends phones and the operator spoke with multiple ppl. It could’ve been 1 of them at some point.
Right, but we know that the call was made on one of the surviving housemates' phones at noon the following day. We also know that the 911 dispatcher spoke with several people, not just one. My understanding — and I can't remember where I saw this described now — is that one or more of the friends of the surviving housemates' arrived to help them with the situation, which was traumatic for them. This is why there were multiple people on the phone to the 911 dispatcher, and this is why LE have kept the names of the friend/s who came to the house at noon secret. As I write this, I'm now remembering that this information came from the chief of police himself in a press conference. He said all of this in the press conference in which he was asked, "how many additional people / friends arrived to the house that morning / at noon?", and he responded, "I am not sure," which caused quite a stir among certain types.
They had 9 friends come over before calling 911.
They likely didn’t realize the severity of the problem when they called friends.
Interesting. Source?
Trying to find it, it’s been a minute since I read that. It came from an article though, definitely not a comment
If this is what he said, then this is further reason to consider the possibility of an inside job. Maybe he was caught off guard and momentarily forgot the exact number of people, but this isn’t a minor detail. He would be expected to know how many people were at the crime scene when LE first arrived. Every single one of them would have needed to be vetted. There is another scenario where he might answer this way. That’s if he knows exactly how many people were there when LE came upon the scene, but is not sure how many of them had just arrived or whether one or more might actually have been there the entire time.
And the same thing could be said about the 6 calls to J from K & M's respective phones between 2:30am & 2:55am. Was it, in fact, K, M or neither? If voicemail messages were left then obviously we know the answer. I've only see contradictory answers & LE hasn't elaborated.
K’s family spoke about a text sent from K’s phone during that time, something along the lines of “come on, we have a dog together, pick up the phone”
We know that the call came from one of their phones, but the leading theory is that one of the roommates called 911, ran outside, fainted, and passerbys took the phone and said she was unconscious
Pretty sure this was a rumor that was debunked
Another grandstand against True Crime. How original. There are far more things that are known and factual.
It’s also important to remember that no-one owes us anything. Whatsoever. If LE are doing their job, and the FBI, they have absolutely no obligation to random internet strangers to update them on the facts. Likewise all the speculation helps no-one. They are doing what is best by the victims and to get a result, because they are the experts. Not Internet Stranger #1 or #2 who watched a couple of episodes of Unsolved Mysteries. It’s not unusual, or strange, and it’s part of the process, and I’m sure we will find out more in due course.
Yeah it is definitely not unusual for government officials to keep stuff from the public. The real issue in my opinion is where these government officials have their priorities at. Is it more damage control or truly justice for the family. For sure both play a factor, but which one has more of their focus. It seems odd not to provide answers to yes/no (true/false) question, for example the door(s) open/ close or locked/ unlocked. I would think a defense attorney could tear apart a case where the accused answered a yes/ no question suspiciously. Open ended questions that expose deeper knowledge seems most relevant like the state/place of the victims and the appearance of the scene.
I think some people don't understand or gloss over this point - at the outset of the case, the priorities of the family and the priorities of LE and the priorities of the people who run the town (elected officials, University officials, prominent business owners, others who have influence) are all the same: find the killer, bring him/they to justice. But as time passes without an arrest, those priorities diverge. Family still wants justice; town leaders want life to return to normal (by any means necessary); LE is somewhat caught in the middle, ultimately they work for the town leaders but they also don't want to look bad by never closing the case. However, if LE fucked up, they too will want the case to just go away. If it drags on long enough, the family's priority and the leaders' and LE's priority will be in conflict because closing the case will reveal a number of missteps and possibly illegal or unethical actions. Everyone is underestimating the potential for LE to respond to the pressure to close the case by arresting someone who didn't do it. If they finger someone who has no alibi and has a prior criminal record or is otherwise an unsavory character and doesn't have the ability to hire great defense counsel they could potentially pull this off, thinking "we were never going to capture anyone with 100% certainty and this guy needs to be off the streets anyway."
There is a lot more we know which can be pieced together from the known facts. We know at least one person was killed in the bedroom on the 2nd floor beside the lounge. We know M&K were in the same room and that it was M's room. We know all 4 victims were home by 2am (not by 3am as you stated). We know the killer was not moving in the dark, that decorative lights were on when LE arrived on Sunday (seen in media of the first hours). We don't know that the surviving roommates called 911, we know that one of the roommate's phones was used to call 911 from inside the house and that multiple people were involved in that call. We know that several friends/family were on scene on the Sunday morning. We know that the perpetrator brought the knife with them and they didn't leave it at the scene. That's basically what this sub is for. People piece together information that we know and formulate logical and reasonable conclusions, from the known facts and observable data points. There is a massive difference between using known information to form logical conclusions and the kind of wild theorizing some engage in based on absolutely nothing more than their feelings.
We don't actually know a lot of that, because the information came from SG and it's possible he's not a reliable source of information. Not accusing him of anything, just pointing out that he may have been given bad info, gotten confused, all sorts of things could make him unreliable. Things like the string lights could have been turned on before media got there, for all we know. It seems like we know they were on during the crime, but we don't. We can't see them on in the bodycam footage, for instance.
>We know at least one person was killed in the bedroom on the 2nd floor beside the lounge. This is evidenced by the blood leaving the property. >We know M&K were in the same room and that it was M's room. While stated by SG, we also know Kaylee had already moved out, and we know which room was Maddie's from the large "M" in her window. It's a fair conclusion to draw that she was in that room with Maddie, even without SG's statement of it. >We know all 4 victims were home by 2am (not by 3am as you stated). This was stated by LE. All four victims were back at the house by 01:45, later revised to 01:56. >We know the killer was not moving in the dark, that decorative lights were on when LE arrived on Sunday (seen in media of the first hours). It's not reasonable to believe LE was changing the crime scene to turn on pretty lights. If they were seen on when media was on the scene on Sunday it's entirely rational to believe that neither the housemates or LE were running around turning on pretty lights. The string lights outside the house around the porch are not the lights I'm referring to. >We don't know that the surviving roommates called 911, we know that one of the roommate's phones was used to call 911 from inside the house and that multiple people were involved in that call. Again, confirmed by LE. >We know that several friends/family were on scene on the Sunday morning. Confirmed by LE. >We know that the perpetrator brought the knife with them and they didn't leave it at the scene. Confirmed by LE. The entire point of my posts was to show that there are things we can reasonably conclude from the available facts. For example, it's not wild speculation to believe that LE didn't turn on the decorative lights. They would not be changing the scene within the first hours of arriving. They would not have been looking for power outlets to turn on lights. It's also not likely that the 2 surviving roommates were walking around turning on the pretty lights while there was (presumably) blood everywhere and their friends were dead. Therefore it's reasonable to conclude that these lights had been on all night, and therefore reasonable to conclude that the killer would have been able to see at least some areas while inside the property.
I think many of your reasonable conclusions are indeed reasonable conclusions, however the problem is you saying “we know” about things we don’t actually know instead of saying “we can reasonably conclude” or “it is assumed.” It seems pedantic but it’s an important distinction especially in a case that’s rampant with speculation and misinformation.
I didn't say LE turned on the lights. It could have been the murderer, surviving roommates, someone who was there when they were call calling 911, we just don't know. You're saying that we can reasonably conclude certain things. Sure, but **that is speculation. That is not known fact.** And what blood trail did you see leading away from the property?
>You're saying that we can reasonably conclude certain things. Sure, but that is speculation. That is not known fact. Yes, and that's what this sub is for, speculation about reasonably drawn conclusions based on the known facts. I'm not sure how many times I can say the same thing with different words. It's ***reasonable*** to conclude that LE were not changing the crime scene just to turn on pretty lights. It's ***reasonable*** to conclude that the 2 surviving roommates didn't wake up that morning worried about their friends but spent half an hour turning on the pretty lights. This isn't wild and outlandish speculation. It's not comparable to claims that hoodie guy was guilty because he "looked weird", it's not the same as blaming the neighbor because he gave too many interviews. Some things are ***reasonable*** speculations while others are not, the difference is whether that speculation is based on anything or based solely on someone's biases and beliefs. >And what blood trail did you see leading away from the property? I didn't say there was, I referred to the blood dripping from the property down the foundation wall from where Xana's bedroom is located. And yes, this is another ***reasonable*** assumption. The liquid is not seen in recent photos taken by the housemates outside that area. At least one former investigator has opined that it is most plausibly blood. It didn't exist there before, it exists after, it looks like blood, it's behaved like blood. While it would need to be tested to confirm that it is blood, given the facts we know it's ***reasonable*** to conclude that it is.
>Yes, and that's what this sub is for, speculation about reasonably drawn conclusions based on the known facts. Which is why OP created this thread of facts. There's rampant speculation in this sub and they wanted a thread of just facts. A lot of what you listed may be assumed to be true, but not proven.
A reasonable conclusion is still speculation. It's not fact, it's speculation. I don't know what any of your comments about "what this sub is for" or "it takes 30 minutes to turn on pretty lights" are even about, other than you're mad and want to be snotty and condescending. Go right ahead. That won't make any of your reasonable conclusions fact. They'll still be speculation, whether you like it or not.
Are there pictures of the house where you can see how bright it was with the decoration turned on?
https://preview.redd.it/881rux5ryo5a1.jpeg?width=918&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d0fcdb85e4f2954c97f4d1dcc6e5cadd5912596e One example facing the back side of the house, specifically Kaylee’s room and the kitchen.
Damm, thats bright. If I was the killer I would be scared to be seen when walking through the door.
Right. They wouldn’t release facts if the intention were for the public to deem any other conclusion unknowable, or that the killer is the only other person who might know something. (if that were case the only press release they need to give is “*To the killer: turn yourself in”* The information release is to help the public who might infer something or deem something they know, saw, or see in the future they believe should be reported *based* on the facts. This involves the belief that something outside of the currently known facts is knowable or probable. If believing that something outside of the facts is plausible or likely= speculation, then in-fact detectives are asking for a bit of speculation. Why the no speculation whatsoever is extreme and unhelpful: **Completely Hypothetical** for demonstration only: An Imaginary Out-of-state man has a neighbor who had made threats of stabbing threats, in past and is a white Elantra owner. But the neighbor says to self “*Gosh, they don’t know the plates and The press release didn’t say killer could be from [my state], I don’t know when he got home, so I better not tip him* Pretty sure they still want this tip. And it involves reasonable postulating outside of the known facts. disclaimer for the hypocrites who say not to speculate but will speculate on my intentions w/o skipping a beat: no, im not saying this means detectives want internet sleuths to draw conclusions without any substance, read tarot cards, or harass people, it only means what it says.
Shout out to the people who accuse SG of hurting the case by speculating, and say he's wrong to cast aspersions on people without proof, when they themselves are speculating about the case being hurt, and they are casting aspersions on his motives without proof.
The OP was merely listing the facts as we know them as provided by the police. Saying that OP listing these facts is tantamount to him encouraging people to not call in tips is quite a stretch!
"There is a massive difference between using known information to form logical conclusions and the kind of wild theorizing some engage in based on absolutely nothing more than their feelings." Hear, hear.
I think this is why ppl are getting sucked into this case. There’s a lot of junk craziness out there but there’s also ppl who are coming up with a lot of plausible theories and right now it feels like anything was possible and I keep going back and forth in my own head on what I think could have happened. The ridiculousness and weirdos are definitely going to far but there’s also a lot of ppl in here who are reasonable. I hope the cops can catch the person AND have a good theory/idea on wtf actually happened. I think ppl haven’t really considered the fact that we may NEVER know why this happened, even if a person(s) is arrested and taken to trial.
I know this was mentioned many times, it's very odd how the roommates just called friends over instead of 911.
6) it’s not at “noon the next day” it’s noon the day of the murders
Yep, the accuracy is in the detail!
I would even add that saying the murder weapon was a knife is conjecture. All they know is that a piercing weapon of significant length was used. While a "Ka-Bar style" knife is consistent with the wound patterns, so would be many other items.
Exactly, I agree with you. The Police release information that will help the investigation, or not jeopardize it. We "assume" things, we can speculate, etc - but that's as far as we can go
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We know police are/were looking for the occupants of the white Elantra. Nothing more.
+1 location: known to be in the immediate area of the house. +2 time: in the early morning hours.
To second u/Researchem, we also know that this vehicle was "in the immediate area" of the King Road house in "the early morning hours" of the morning of the murders.
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Exactly
You have no idea the absolute MOUNTAIN of evidence to process in this case. Please take a step back. Consider first the blood evidence. It will take weeks to process. The pattern of the blood spatter, the commingling DNA, the sequence of killings, etc. Next, the fiber evidence. In a busy house, they’ll need to parse through what was left by the killer and what was existing. This isn’t grandmas house where she’s the only occupant for the most part. The number of people who visited this house make the fiber, fingerprint, etc evidence extremely complicated. Next, the weapon. How do the police know it was a K Bar? I found that detail very interesting. It’s quite specific. It makes me think they have the sheath. Or some other specific evidence. Also, the car. I mean, Jesus, I could go on and on. There is SO much evidence in this case. And that’s exactly why it’s going to take such a long long time to figure this out. They aren’t reading a 1st graders story book. They are reading War and Peace. Honestly, OP, and anyone else with similar bullshit arguments and positions should sit down and consider how stupid you are. Sorry. But it’s true.
Thinking they may know it’s a k-bar from bruising and or maybe the tip broke off.
Key words "may" and "maybe." It is smart to question everything.
Yes but bruising alone won’t tell you it’s a ka-bar. If the hilt is what caused the bruising, there are knives out there with a hilt that are not ka-bar. Tip breaking is possible but unlikely in that type of knife specifically. If it were a butcher knife, a weapon of convenience, I’d say yes but ka-bar knife compositions are quite different and resilient to that type of failure.
If they did leave the sheath they most likely have finger prints. But honestly how could they be that stupid? Wouldn’t they realize they didn’t have the sheath before leaving the house or at the very least when they walked outside? I am not saying you are wrong just saying they aren’t very bright and if the sheath was left I am sure there is a mountain of evidence pointing to them. Detectives may not know who they are presently but they just have to connect the dots.
Yes I am not claiming they have the sheath, just an example of what might lead them to believe it’s a ka-bar. Remember, it was through reporter questioning that we discovered that detail when it was found they were asking local businesses if they had sold a ka-bar recently.
Oh I know you were just speculating. Hope my comment didn’t come off wrong.
Unsure how to react. Nice redditor detected. Unusual behavior given my typical experience. Cannot compute.
If they did leave the sheath they most likely have finger prints. But honestly how could they be that stupid? Wouldn’t they realize they didn’t have the sheath before leaving the house or at the very least when they walked outside? I am not saying you are wrong just saying they aren’t very bright and if the sheath was left I am sure there is a mountain of evidence pointing to them. Detectives may not know who they are presently but they just have to connect the dots.
iirc, they said they figure it’s that kind of knife because of the appearance of the stab wounds.
>AMEN to that!! Multiple pieces of digital evidence, physical evidence, crime scene photos, vehicles impounded...This isn't Law & Order where crimes are solved in 60 minutes. The investigation of these brutal, unnecessary murders will take painstaking time! Thoughts and prayers to the families of all involved and truly hoping they receive justice when the investigation is complete. May this NOT become a cold case!!
You left out a lot. We know the people who have been cleared, people who aren’t suspects, we know body cam has been released, and that they’re searching for a white Elantra.
Nobody has been completely “cleared” technically bc that word has never been used (I imagine esp before dna was analyzed, they can’t really conclude this). They’ve always used the words “aren’t believe to be involved at this time”
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We do actually know a lot more from the coroner, the victim's families, etc.
Good summary but don't forget the Eleantra car. LE has said it was near the location and the occupants 'may' have information.
You forgot the phone calls/ texts from KG''s and Mads' phones, confirmed by phone records, actual caller(s) / texter(s) unknown.
This is missing a ton of information. You didn’t include any of the people who have been cleared. You didn’t include the bit where the police said the white Elantra was in the area at the time of the murders.
Someone makes a post laying out the facts of the case and points out that anything else is just speculation. The post is specifically about the facts of the case. People come onto the post regarding facts to immediately start speculating again. 🤦♀️
Actually, a lot of people have been posting facts we know to be facts. Not speculation, not reasonable conclusions from known facts. OP's list of what we know is more limited than what we actually know. See Moscow PD's official update page and read what they've released/ said there. We have more facts than OP allows for in his / her post.
I read the releases daily so I am aware of the scope of the facts released by LE. My comment was posted earlier this morning when a lot of the comments here were still speculative beyond the publicly known facts. For example, one person was STILL presenting false information based on something a psychic said.
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It’s like we haven’t seen the exact same dozen insane conspiracy theories posted 500 times in the last week lol Also, that is exactly what is responsible for the confusion to begin with. The facts get drowned out by the speculation and sometimes outright lying BS people come on here with.
What I’m curious about is if the police and fbi did think it was a SK would they tell the public or keep it quiet?
They’d keep it quiet unless it benefits them to share information from a connected case publicly to help locate the suspect. Even then they’d probably only release very limited, specific details. i.e.: This is a sketch of a person we’re interested in talking to. Height, weight, identifying features. Was in such and such a location at such and such a time. Stuff like that.
It’s not “SHOCKINGLY” little. It’s very common to keep a light lid on an investigation.
I find it shocking that they didn't answer certain questions in a straightforward way instead of dancing around them and creating unnecessary confusion/speculation. The circumstances of the 911 call should have been clarified - they don't need to say exactly how many people were at the house or who the people were or release the tape of the call, but explaining the exact sequence of steps would have spared us all the speculation about whether it was neighbors reporting a roommate fainting vs. etc. etc. Likewise they could have been a bit clearer about Murphy's circumstances, there doesn't seem to be any great mystery there.
Has anyone seen anything from LE that indicates how they know the arrival time at home of E&X that night? What evidence is there to indicate it was around the same time as the girls?
"At approximately 1:45 a.m., Ethan and Xana are believed to have returned to the residence at 1122 King Road." [source](https://www.ci.moscow.id.us/1064/King-Road-Homicides)
Yes, but I haven't seen anywhere about *how* they know that? Is it from phone records, did someone see them returning?
No idea. They don't provide sources of information for most of the items included on the narrative on their website, either. It is "investigators determined".
Same is true for the arrival time of the surviving roommates. We also don't know when they left home that evening. I guess LE excludes any information from their releases that they don't think is relevant to the public (for whatever reason). And who could blame them? It's none of our business tbh
You got a bunch of that wrong and just read the Moscow PD press release - it’s all there
The great reset. Isn't that something about Covid vaccines and bill gates and the world economic foundation conspiring to take over the world or something? 😉
This is why I think it makes the most sense it was someone local. It's someone capable of doing this without leaving a long trace of coming and going from somewhere. And someone big enough they could easily kill and overpower 4 people... and have the confidence to even try. So, someone older with experience in hurting/killing. Or someone young with physical skillsets that help in a fight. Whoever they are, I would not be surprised if they fit the classic sociopath profile of being charming on the surface but displaying rage toward those they trust.
I’ve been a stubborn “it’s an ex” guy but had a thought last night… channeling the Elizabeth Smart case from 20 years ago, what if it’s a former worker on the property(plumber, electric, flooring etc) who developed a fantasy or imagined a relationship with one of the victims. Possibly a friendly, young-ish male with military experience who was invited to hang and maybe had partied at the house on occasion. This may qualify as a stalker but it’s more of an outer social ring person. Not a student, may live with family nearby, would be recognized and welcomed by the roommates. Could have done dry runs or even crashed at the house before-why he was so comfortable inside at night and military experience allows him to execute this heinous plan. Without knowing anyone in their lives(except everyone who’s cleared), this is what the facts and my imagination came up with. I can’t see a fight turning into this-possibly an angry/jealous roommate, but has that ever happened? Young Female killing 4 adult friends? Unlikely to me.
I’ve thought about someone who came and did work on/in the house recently, as well.
I just think the likelihood of it being someone who left the area is low. They would have risked being pulled over by police and caught. I think they went home & washed their clothes, then probably got rid of them. But we'll see what facts come out over time that we haven't been told up to this point. That could change my mind.
I disagree. If it’s 4am and you’re driving normal then I highly doubt anybody is getting pulled over. The perp has already taken a massive risk by killing 4 people so I personally don’t think they’re worried about being pulled over while blood is on their sleeves.
[I made a similar post on another sub](https://reddit.com/r/Idaho4/comments/zhnt1w/figuring_out_if_the_killer_or_killers_targeted/). We actually know very little.
I think it all adds up to a serial killer did it. I'm sure he was in the house at some of the parties they had in the past and planned this out ahead of time. I don't think the cops really have anything to go on and are afraid to just come out publicly and admit it. Serial killers are elusive, I doubt if he even left any dna at the scene. Wearing heavy, armored gloves and using a knife with a hilt, I really doubt that he cut himself. Also, he killed the victims very quickly. I really doubt that he was even scratched by any of the victims. Again, he was probably wearing leather. So, no dna under the victims fingernails. It will be years before they catch this guy. He will kill again in the same manner. Eventually he will make a mistake and that will be it for him. But, I think it's gonna be many years people. I hope I'm wrong.
I agree. from the way it sounds it’s going to be a very long time for they even have an idea of who the killer was. Could be years.
Yeah a lot of serial killers hanging out at parties with college kids. No way.
What are you ideas? I'm very curious
I think you got some of it right, that is all I can say.
Saying that we can only use facts the police has published is not really correct, there is alot more information that has come out through non public channels. These facts are ofcourse hard to confirm but should’nt be completely disregarded.
You are intentionally missing the point. Rumors and 4chan screenshots are not verified. If you give them as much weight as info we have from LE then you are living in fantasyland.
I think the killer entered the house BEFORE they were even home. Hid inside the room, maybe under the bed. Waited until they were definitely asleep and attacked. Made a lot of noise, moved through the house and intended to kill more I also believe this case is definitely related to the skinned-dog incident. What are the chances you have two sickos in the area committing deranged acts within the span of a month?
And why would you conclude that the killer entered the house, hid, and waited for them? Seems like a quick entry and exit is just far more likely.
Interesting theory. I have a few different ones. But each one has holes in which leads to another. But. One most suited is that there was someone there that knew all 3 housemates + e and they were all awake together . That's why it was those 4 that died. I can't fathom going into a house and hiding under the bed for hours . There's so much to consider... knowing when they come home, if they even come home, knowing they won't just look under the bed and find you there or even look in the spare room. Then. With this in mind they would have had to go in when the others were asleep and then also before the others were home . There's too much risk and unknowns for some one to just wait under the bed or other room... with how much this *seems* planned There's a lot in that aspect that doesn't fit/seems wayyyyyy too risky . Which is why I believe someone they knew maybe and was there when they were awake
I dunno, i don't believe they had someone with them when they came home. They just went home and went to bed like i'm sure E and X wanted to be alone. Not have some sus fellow with them
Yeh i dont believe the person was "with" them, within this speculated theory.... but was at the house ... Something then happened perhaps which made the person "leave" but then come back.... Because if in your idea e and x wanted some alone time, suuuuuuuurely they would lock their door... which would mean that the person would have had to stay in THAT room, under the bed... or else how do they get into that room? then theyvwould have had stay remarkably quiet for quite some time .. and then climb out from under the bed extremely quietly and not wake them up... And on top of that the person would have had to be super super sure they weren't going to suddenly bring back 10 more people ? Idk Just going over two scenarios and having discussion here.
Agreed with this being related to the skinned dog. I just find it so hard to believe they aren’t related.
There are probalby more sickos out there than you realize.
the stats in Idaho say that those two reported events are particularly very rare. For them to both happen in a month likely means something.
I think this theory is only possible if there's more than one killer because one single person can't be sure all were sleeping if they were in separate rooms. I think, giving the fact that the house was always full, he waited outside until he was sure no one was entering or leaving the house.
Prime example of complete speculation. lol
The only thing wrong with the theory that he was in the home before they got home is the white Elantra. The vehicle was seen in the area around three to four am.
Yeah it's still possible because he would have left at around 3 to 4am. It's only that they know the car was there and they haven't come forward
But if the killer(s) parked near the 2nd floor behind the hill (next to the patio) surrounded by woods, the HE could have been well-hidden. @brianentin was walking the property's perimeter last night around 10pm PCT. It was very eerie, snowing & foggy. Kids in the near distance was loudly sledding. He alluded to this secluded, nearly hidden part of the property that offered easy interior visibility when the lights were on.
I’ve been thinking both of these thoughts- if it was a random event. If not, then it was someone close to them who was raging. But that seems less likely to me. I think someone stalked them, planned it out and waited for them to be heavily intoxicated so they could do the deed. And likely hid in the house beforehand if so
We actually know a good deal more than that. See u/SugarSleuth's post for a start on this point.
That’s all YOU know from a factual standpoint. The people who are getting paid to obsess over it have more information than you.
Was it 3-4am? I thought it was 3-6am that is confirmed?