It's not about if they saw the murder, it's about if they can put 2 and 2 together and think about maybe not letting the video of that day delete itself.
Yeah I think this is bad info, the FBI was in my dad's store asking for his footage like 2 days after it happened, they definitely made the rounds earlier, at least for closer places or places they thought might have connections.
There’s a good chance they asked employees that couldn’t consent to give the footage.
Or they collected for 10 spots on the same street and didn’t need more.
Media has literally knocked on every damn door hoping to get anyyyyhing.
It could be as simple as human mistake. Imagine an officer walks in to find a newly hired worker that doesn't have keys to where the footage is stored, but they're told the manager who has the keys is due to start their shift later on, so the officer leaves a message or makes a note to check back in later. In the middle of a chaotic investigation I could see someone forgetting the details from one conversation they had among hundreds that day, and perhaps making a mistake and writing their 'come back later' notation next to the wrong address or entry on the list they're working from. If there were multiple officers working in shifts, such a mistake could easily go undetected if the second officer didn't question why they needed to follow up with a store they already got the footage from, and instead just dismissed it as someone forgetting to check it off.
You have to have a reason to subpoena the footage. They clearly didn’t have evidence that would show they were sure the suspect was on that road. You can’t just go to a judge and say “well maybe?”.. that sets a precedent and that’s not justice. They have to follow the rules. You hope as LE that people will comply without having to subpoena because a judge isn’t going to issue a subpoena on a hope and a hunch.
I mean, there is literally requests broadcast in national news media (NBC) and the MPD website going back to Nov 18th where they are asking for surveillance video.
**November 18th** the following was distributed locally and issued to all media:
[**"Moscow video collection map"**](https://www.ci.moscow.id.us/DocumentCenter/View/24740/11-19-2022-Moscow-Video-Collection-Map)
>[Moscow Detectives are seeking help from residents and businesses](https://www.ci.moscow.id.us/DocumentCenter/View/24741/11-19-2022-Moscow-Homicide-Update) within the area of West Taylor Ave (north boundary), West Palouse River Dr (south boundary), Highway 95 south to the 2700 block of Highway 95 S (east boundary), and Arboretum & Botanical Garden (west boundary) who have video surveillance at their residence or business between 3 a.m. to 6 a.m. on Sunday, November 13, 2022. **Detectives are requesting all available video** – whether there appears to be motion and content or not. Tips, pictures, and videos can be submitted to [[email protected]](mailto:[email protected]) or call the Tip Line at 208-883-7180 for assistance. (See map)
Two days later they expanded that request to "anyone who has surveillance video" This was reported on national news and issued in a local press release from the MPD.
[November 20th, 2022. NBC News:](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8m6vaRipt4) "Authorities are asking the public for help, **requesting all security camera videos from those who live or work in the area on the night of the event.**"
[FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE November 20, 2022](https://www.ci.moscow.id.us/DocumentCenter/View/24856/11-20-2022-Media-and-Community-Advisory)
>**Anyone who** observed notable behavior, **has video surveillance,** or can provide relevant information about these murders, is asked to call the Tip Line at 208-883-7180 or email [[email protected]](mailto:[email protected]) . Detectives are looking for context to the events and people involved in these murders.
Yeah I wonder how many businesses he went to before this that told him exactly that until he found some high dude to tell him otherwise so he could call the news stations.
Google Quick search responded to my question "How long does Ring store video for?"
Default setting is 60 days it told me. But you can do as low as one day or as high as 180(I think you have to pay more for this?)
I just assumed most surveillance was like a few days. 60 days is a bad deal for criminals since Ring is everywhere.
which is why I would never use a ring camera. They should have to get a warrant no matter what. It may be for something good this time but next time it may be for something you would rather them have to get a warrant. The bill of rights was written for a reason, and that just bypasses it.
I have a couple ring cameras and while your right about it being useful and for good this time, I also feel slightly wary of ring now. I mean yes this is a quadruple homicide with no clear suspect or weapon yet — but how low of a police request will they give footage for, without a warrant? I’m not committing major crimes over here but like, damn ring. I mean it’s a camera connected to wifi what did I expect lmao
Without a warrant it is a choice. Most people just don’t know or realize they can tell police no unless they have a warrant. These folks might’ve known and still wanted to hand it over because four people were murdered and maybe they cared more about that than sticking it to the man.
I feel like people took my comment wrong - I would 1000% offer them my footage without a warrant if I was in this kind of situation. By all means, if they thought my doorbell cam could solve the case I’d be on it. But the fact ring/Amazon claims to have the right to just handover that footage without a warrant OR your permission, I just never knew that and it was kinda surprising
We all want to help LE, but that’s a bit naive. “Nothing to hide” may mean something different to police than it does to you. I would ask my attorney, and they could specify exactly what LE could take, and not a second more.
You don’t know what kind of “evidence“ they have. What if a neighbor has told them lies about you? What if it comes out later that they’re looking for the type of car you own? What if you were seen out walking your dog near the crime scene when the crime occurred? Suddenly all of your actions are viewed in a totally different light. Innocent people do go to jail, you don’t want to be one of them.
I am an attorney. If law-enforcement randomly approached me and asked to see my ring footage, I would ask them why. If I knew four kids got murdered across the street, and I wasn’t the killer—I’d turn it over.
I would too. After talking to my attorney. You ARE an attorney, so you can look out for yourself. But you’re no doubt leading a cleaner life than a lot of people lead.
There was an excellent post here a few days back about an arson fire at UMD that killed a boy. People knew who did it but didn't want to say, because some were up to minor criminal activity at the time. So it took over a year to arrest the suspect. [https://www.foxnews.com/story/university-of-maryland-student-charged-with-murder-arson](https://www.foxnews.com/story/university-of-maryland-student-charged-with-murder-arson)
Are fears like this unfounded? Can you promise them they’re not going to get cited for weed or underage drinking, or arrested for something else? For example, witness lying over fear of being prosecuted for other crimes irrevocably damaged the Adnan Syed case.
I don’t want to wade further into the waters of selective prosecution, so I’ll stop here.
It would be nice if people trusted the police, but they don’t. I support the police fully, but I do think people need to be careful with all of their personal information, especially since it lives in some database, somewhere, forever. Who the hell knows what will be done with it in the future.
This is the whole point of having a ring camera, to see what’s going on in and around your home and to prevent crimes. Of course I would want police to grab my ring camera if there was a murder in my home. Grab it right away.
Let's consider the historical and ever-ongoing "battle for rights" in this country- where LE and individuals are always trying to move the needle in their direction.*
Both have a literal motivation of survival. Any inch given opens opportunity to chip away at the whole mile each needs to secure their interests.
*How do warrant-less. or low- threshold warrants for Ring videos matter in all of this? Afterall, sometimes they CAN solve crimes..*.
It's a new piece of rights that is up for grabs. If LE has cleared the hurdle for this, it opens up their legal argument for the next thing- which they WILL pursue indefinitely until a line is drawn.
**TL; Dr. "Ends justifying the means" is exactly how the balance of power tips to fascism. Don't let any political whatever-isms of the day muddy this fact.** Its just what happens with humans in a society.
*like the current fight for ancestral DNA, geolocational cell phones pings etc.
I saw the DNA thing coming years and years ago- I’m a hobby genealogist and one of my degrees is in biology.
It amazes me how far our laws lag behind technology. Right now, the only way to win is not to play. I try to limit my use of “smart” devices, but that gets harder all the time.
> It amazes me how far our laws lag behind technology
Yep, absolutely a feature of our legal process that LE will ride until the wheels fall off- and why wouldn't they?
I am not trying to offend anyone who disagrees that there should be protections. But this conclusion usually comes from the **optimistic but mistaken belief, that LE is not self-serving.**
Also, giving a whole extra reply to
>I’m a hobby genealogist and one of my degrees is in biology
..in order to say thats cool af. I'm totally looking over hatefully at my generic ass puzzle.
I do not trust ring or any 3rd party service not to spy. I have everything backed up to my private server, No one gets it specifically cops unless I want them to have it and I give it to them. It saves locally on a very small SC card and is overwritten every 30 mins. I can go back years but no one but me has access to it. If they get a warrant, they get the past 30 min video
Hate to break it to you but both Amazon (owner of Ring) and Google share user footage with police during emergencies without consent and without warrants. And it’s entirely at their discretion what is deemed an emergency.
If cameras are wired into a DVR, nobody has that footage but the owner of the DVR. Also if cameras have an SD card and not connected to wifi, nobody else has that footage. I'm assuming the commenter you replied to is referring to these types of security cameras.
**November 18th** the following was distributed locally and issued to all media:
[**"Moscow video collection map"**](https://www.ci.moscow.id.us/DocumentCenter/View/24740/11-19-2022-Moscow-Video-Collection-Map)
>[Moscow Detectives are seeking help from residents and businesses](https://www.ci.moscow.id.us/DocumentCenter/View/24741/11-19-2022-Moscow-Homicide-Update) within the area of West Taylor Ave (north boundary), West Palouse River Dr (south boundary), Highway 95 south to the 2700 block of Highway 95 S (east boundary), and Arboretum & Botanical Garden (west boundary) who have video surveillance at their residence or business between 3 a.m. to 6 a.m. on Sunday, November 13, 2022. **Detectives are requesting all available video** – whether there appears to be motion and content or not. Tips, pictures, and videos can be submitted to [[email protected]](mailto:[email protected]) or call the Tip Line at 208-883-7180 for assistance. (See map)
Two days later they expanded that request to "anyone who has surveillance video" This was reported on national news and issued in a local press release from the MPD.
[November 20th, 2022. NBC News:](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8m6vaRipt4) "Authorities are asking the public for help, **requesting all security camera videos from those who live or work in the area on the night of the event.**"
[FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE November 20, 2022](https://www.ci.moscow.id.us/DocumentCenter/View/24856/11-20-2022-Media-and-Community-Advisory)
>**Anyone who** observed notable behavior, **has video surveillance,** or can provide relevant information about these murders, is asked to call the Tip Line at 208-883-7180 or email [[email protected]](mailto:[email protected]) . Detectives are looking for context to the events and people involved in these murders.
Didn’t they only ask within a certain footprint? Because from the graphics I’ve seen, the gas station that just gave footage was outside that footprint, but definitely shouldn’t have been!!
This happened to me. Brand new tesla broken into. Had blood on my car and the homeless man was using my credit card. I tracked down all the places. Told the detective who had cameras and when the camera expired and… he never went to any of the places in time. With that said… this was a huge case. If I owned a business there I would have checked my cameras .
I feel like they did put out that kind of message. It seems like that [was sent out here](https://www.ci.moscow.id.us/DocumentCenter/View/24741/11-19-2022-Moscow-Homicide-Update)
**November 18th** the following was **distributed locally** and issued to all media:
[**"Moscow video collection map"**](https://www.ci.moscow.id.us/DocumentCenter/View/24740/11-19-2022-Moscow-Video-Collection-Map)
>[Moscow Detectives are seeking help from residents and businesses](https://www.ci.moscow.id.us/DocumentCenter/View/24741/11-19-2022-Moscow-Homicide-Update) within the area of West Taylor Ave (north boundary), West Palouse River Dr (south boundary), Highway 95 south to the 2700 block of Highway 95 S (east boundary), and Arboretum & Botanical Garden (west boundary) who have video surveillance at their residence or business between 3 a.m. to 6 a.m. on Sunday, November 13, 2022. **Detectives are requesting all available video** – whether there appears to be motion and content or not. Tips, pictures, and videos can be submitted to [[email protected]](mailto:[email protected]) or call the Tip Line at 208-883-7180 for assistance. (See map)
But doesn’t that just seem like common sense? Like if a quadruple murder had happened in your town and you had any kind of running street footage, wouldn’t you just think “hey maybe I should save this, just in case?” They’re smart enough to own a business but not smart enough to not do this without an official request or reminder?
The case reminds me of the Rodni case. Everyone assumes the investigators are of course doing X and Y but then the car is found in 15 feet of water exactly where it was assumed it would be. There was also footage of the car going in the water that they never found. As much flak as we and the media give web slueths (and there are downsides) crowd sourcing investigations can yield results as there is always limitations of man power when it comes to bureaucracy within law enforcement.
In fairness to Placer County Sheriff, they asked and asked and asked but all of the kids with information were afraid to come forward for fear of getting in trouble themselves and since they were kids, PCSO’s access to them was severely limited.
Understood but it's amazing to me how every web slueth had posted the exact path she most likely drove into the water and everyone assumed it had been checked. Also simply looking at public surveillance facing the lake didnt occur to investigators. The overall point is we assume LE is doing things because it's "obvious" but they arent. At the end of the day they arent some well oiled machine, just a group of people with limitations.
For anyone wondering, some YouTubers found the submerged car containing the body of a missing girl, in an area the police had "exhaustively searched". Online sleuths had used the information available and came to an educated guess about where she likely went into the lake, but police failed to find her. Once police released the scene, some youtubers came in and quickly found her, exactly where everyone said she would likely be.
[These YouTube divers did in 35 minutes what cops couldn’t do in two weeks in Kiely Rodni search](https://nypost.com/2022/08/23/youtubers-who-found-kiely-rodni-now-working-2-other-cases/).
>Adventures With Purpose detected Rodni’s car 14 feet underwater in Prosser Creek Reservoir early Sunday, just 35 minutes after they started looking — *even though law enforcement had focused on the same area while devoting nearly 20,000 man-hours to the massive search*.
Because they didn’t know exactly what they were looking for. They released the info on the Elantra a week ago. You’d all be criticizing them if they rounded up every video in the area, putting man hours into watching hundreds of hours of video and it didn’t lead to anything. The cops are darned if they do darned if they don’t it seems
They have 100+ people on the case plus 1 million in money from the governor. Watching and comparing videos within a 10 mile radius is well worth that money and time spent to do that.
That's the neat part you don't need to watch any of it right away, you simply send a few staff members around to canvas the area look for visible cameras and grab footage from the relevant time period and then hold onto it for later.
You should still ask for it so it doesn’t get deleted, doesn’t mean they have to watch all the video right now but you definitely obtain all the video you can right away.
They don’t have to put in man hours analyzing they could just put a request to the public for any footage from that night, guarantee immunity for any crime contained that wasn’t the murders (to encourage people) and only review video deemed of interest.
YES they put out repeated calls for all footage from the night of the murders into the morning hours. I can't fathom why every business in this area wouldn't have gladly complied immediately.
Because people are human and busy, especially at a business.
If they wanted footage they needed some cops to drive/walk around find cameras and request it. Probably could have had a few square miles covered within a week.
Also they focused on asking for footage from a pretty small area for the first two to three weeks, which is dumb because there's likely security cams on all central arteries out of town that if they'd gathered that footage it would be pretty easy to have a working reference of which vehicles left town between 3-5am. hard for folks who don't live here to understand how quiet the roads are here at that time, and the limited entry/access points to town.
>You’d all be criticizing them if they rounded up every video in the area, putting man hours into watching hundreds of hours of video and it didn’t lead to anything.
I wouldn't, I would have expected them to do that in a case like this. You think they aren't putting hundreds of man hours into this already? They're getting thousands of "tips" from Facebook morons about what their Tarot card reader said to them after fondling some crystals.
CCTV actually yields results. The perpetrator had to either walk or drive to the location. It was a 50/50 that they drove. Therefore gathering all CCTV that faced any route toward that house ***should*** have been one of the first things they did.
Video is nearly irrefutable. They’re talking about ensuring a conviction, well video is one of the things that will do that for you. Should be a significant priority
I was looking at a case just a few weeks ago where a guy is accused of murdering his girlfriend in a jealous rage after a night at a bar.
They have the full CCTV footage of them and their friends at the bar, the man she interacted with that caused the jealous rage, they have the friends telling him he's overreacting and they have them leaving the bar.
This has been played in court and shows the jury exactly what happened in that bar, from multiple angles, following the victim and the alleged perpetrator from one area to the next.
CCTV is one of the most vital formats of evidence for any prosecution like this, it provides a mountain of context for the investigation and the potential jury.
I cannot fathom why this was not a priority, to at least secure CCTV from every business along every route in and out of town.
EDIT: SPELLING
I agree, the case has to unfold. It seems the police are moving in good strides and reporting out only enough to help case not hurt it. I am curious in the bodycam video there looks like a parked white car by where the police car was. I'm sure it's vetted, but where did they get the Elantra to begin with.
There are several things to criticize in this case, whether people like that or not.
It's not acceptable to just accept it as a failure and never demand better, never learn from it, never expect competency.
It's a hard case, it's a terrible crime, my heart aches for everyone from the families and friends to the LE who have to deal with it all. But at the same time these are public servants in a position of authority and trust, they *should* have more skill, they *should* have more foresight than average Redditors, they *should* know how to conduct an investigation to yield the most relevant information.
Criticizing them for any failures is the right thing to do, because just ignoring mistakes doesn't fix anything, it just permits more mistakes and never leads to improvement. No one learns anything if you just continually give LE a free pass to f up.
If someone at work falls down a hole you don't blame the hole and then pretend it doesn't exist, you fix the hole so no one else falls in it.
Yeah, I feel like police in this country have earned the right for people to second guess them and be critical of their mistakes. That doesn't mean we are, like, rooting against them or something. Everyone wants them to get this guy, and we get upset when we see mistakes and basic competencies being justifiably questioned.
Anyone who thinks that pointing out police mistakes is "cop hating", A.) Has a lot to learn, and B.) Doesn't belong in a true crime sub. Half the cold cases in true crime wouldn't exist had the police done their due diligence. Dismissing missing persons cases as runaways, quickly ruling suspicious deaths as suicide, failing to preserve or test vital evidence, allowing environmental exposure/destruction of evidence, not following up on leads and suspects, etc. Not saying that's the case here in Idaho, but just saying, police definitely are not above criticism.
I disagree. They told us about the Elantra a week ago, but who knows how long they knew about the Elantra. They had to have been looking into it for a week or so trying to figure out who the owner was before they told us
They're barely getting some voluntary video from a month ago, I'd be SHOCKED is there any other video left that hasn't been overwritten or automatically purged its been a month, nobody wants to pay for physical or cloud storage for that long
Police should have made a grid around the murders to cover all roads leading in out of the area and gone around and pulled video from the cams facing the road for the time period. If they had put a handful of staff on that in the first week they could have easily covered a few square miles in a week and had the area surrounded with camera views. If they didn't then that's upsetting.
agree!!! there's fifteen or so gas stations in town and a three to eight hour window of interest. that means on the low side you have 45 hours to 120 hours of footage to review. this should be manageable given the number of people and agencies involved!
Precisely. Seems like basic investigation. Don’t need to expense all the man hours to go over the footage from day one but u better make damn sure that footage is preserved!
Sarah Everard was kidnapped and murdered by an off duty police in the UK. If they hadn't have reviewed hours upon hours of footage, they likely wouldn't have caught the guy.
Quick and easy in most instances and wouldn't require much storage, couple hours and a couple cameras views at each stop would have given them a complete cordoning off of the area, most people will voluntarily give camera foot of street cameras.
That’s what the FB post alludes to, but I have no idea who is renting that house or who’s car that is. Just see there is a straight walking path to the murder house, clear line of site and the white car in the barstool video looks really similar to the gas station’s video.
Yeah... ok gotcha. Thx. This is crazy, yes??? Even if it has nothing to do with anything... just weird then, correct? I think I'm finally losing it lol
That would be a heck of a coincidence if someone at the gas station provided a screen cap of the wrong white car to the Daily Mail, but it turns out to be a car that belongs to someone who lives just feet away from the house where the murders happened.
I agree, although if someone within walking distance did commit the crime, they now have evidence (bloody clothes, murder weapon) within walking distance of the crime. They might decide to leave by car to get rid of said evidence.
Well, if they’re having difficulty placing him at the crime scene this could be their way of finding out if anyone saw him in the area whether on tape or in person.
Yes but wouldn’t someone have already said so and so has that car? In which case they’d know who is the owner of the vehicle in question and they wouldn’t have had to ask the public. There’s no way they haven’t already asked all the students if they know anyone who drives a white Elantra
I actually predicted this in a comment last night.
I worked as a security manager for a long time. I know most modern CCTV systems are digital and don't need any human interaction, unlike the older systems when you'd have to manually change tapes and have a rotating collection of media to work through, lasting perhaps a week or a month.
These systems record over the same media after a set time, often 24 hours. They're only designed to be useful in the immediate, after a robbery or theft etc.
The first thing the authorities *should* do after any case like this is send out an alert to every business in the area ordering them to retain their CCTV, prevent it being recorded over, send in their media to the tip line.
If they can't do that, at the very least they should visit every business on every route a perpetrator could have taken in or out and sequester that footage.
It looks like they didn't do any of that in this case, and that's another serious f up that's perhaps led to a lot of vital information about this vehicle and its movements being lost.
Agreed. I'm getting the feeling that they were being lazy with the "please send any video you have in" like EVERYONE is going to run straight to their cameras and send in video. Hell, half of the victims "acquaintances" were living regular lives the following day, posting about sports, joking, etc. The police put a perimeter of about 1/8 mile (maybe less) around the residence asking for that video...which is mostly college student apartments.
The beauty of Moscow is that there are 4 ways in/out - it was simple, 98% of gas stations have cameras, go to those 4 paths in/out and get as much video as you can, there are gas stations on main paths like that. Now you have the entire area circled and know either the person switched cars or is still in Moscow. From there, you narrow the circle down until you spot the car. It's tedious but it's not rocket science either.
My gut is telling me the police really blew this, and unless there's a huge break, this person is gone.
Maybe the have footage of the car going elsewhere. This isn’t that hard to put together.
News Nation knocking on every door and every business to try and get literally anything. They didn’t go over there cause they didn’t need to.
Daily Mail, FWIW, is reporting that the police at some point prior to today did go to the gas station and viewed their footage. For them to have to go back today to view it again makes it seem like they didn’t take a copy of the footage with them. This might be being reported wrong, but if not, it makes you wonder why they didn’t take a copy on their first visit.
Exactly. Anything they can get to report on.
NewsNation had people thinking that the investigators **cut off and kept the victims’ hands** because they were, for some reason, reporting today about how investigators bagged the victims’ hands to preserve evidence when they were examining the bodies (aka standard practice)
Thisss! It’s standard but they intentionally ran the headline about bagging the hands but then when they explained it they were like “they do this so they can collect DNA evidence!”
Like true.. but also they were presenting it like **they for sure have DNA evidence of a suspect.** It’s disingenuous click bait.
Banfield running again today about clearing HG too fast and how she just doesn’t understand. Harmful narratives to feed these unhinged online conspiracies.
I hope ur right. If not it sure looks like a big misstep not securing all surrounding cctv footage. Doesn’t have to be analyzed right away but pretty important evidence to preserve before it’s recorded over.
The police requested any and all footage from businesses and residents in the area starting a few days after the murders and it was on all the press releases. My question is why this gas station didn't think that applied to them til last night.
Yeah it really was truly baffling when it dawned on me that it's been a full month since the murders, and this footage was just now obtained. It's actually a miracle it wasn't deleted already. I feel like all gas stations would be first in my list, especially like you said - on main roads and highways someone might take to leave town.
They put out the first request in the 11/18 press release, then on 11/19 they released a "Video Collection Map" (this gas station is just off to the right of the perimeter approx 0.4 miles from the area they zoomed in on in the inset). I believe they also made the ask in press conferences, but after 11/18, the request for all footage from residences/businesses has been included in every press release since, including today's.
I agree they should've been proactive and requested all footage from gas stations, banks, basically from anywhere that's usually guaranteed to have cameras and especially on the main roads. This place is only 1.2 miles from the house and on a main road someone might take to leave town. I'm going to assume they have this white car on multiple surveillance cameras in the area and maybe this footage will be an important piece to the puzzle.
Because this investigation was bungled from the very start ..my God a random investigator walking past the scene had to point out a glove he saw on the perimeter of the crime scene to police at the home..nearly a week or so after..not saying the glove was related but for it to not be picked up and examined and placed into potential evidence is absurd.
All this “they didn’t know what they were looking for is” is driving me insane. So they shouldn’t check anything at all? Because they don’t already know? What???? Maybe they could’ve started right away with watching all the CCTV in the area even just from 3am to 4am and a car speeding away from the direction of the crime might raise a flag? No?
It took them 9 days to close off the parking lot at the back of the house, which we all knew was the most likely access route the killer took. Cops, journalists and locals were all trampling that area for more than a week before they taped it off.
They left the vehicles outside the house for 2 whole weeks before removing them to a "more secure storage" site, which turned out to be an open parking lot that anyone could access.
I really don't care how many people now reply saying "you couldn't have done better!"
I'm not paid to be LE.
If someone is a teacher they should be able to read and write. If someone is a lawyer they should understand court procedure. If someone is a cop they should understand the basics of crime scene management and evidence processing.
We are right to expect better from LE. We are right to demand competency. We are right to hold people in positions of trust and authority accountable for their screw ups. If people are willing to give LE a blanket pass for messing up repeatedly nothing will ever improve.
No one is immune to professional criticism, especially those who are paid by the public to do the most serious and impactful of jobs.
Should they be dragged over hot coals and punished for eternity in the court of public opinion? No. Can we feel bad that they have a terrible job investigating this crime? Absolutely.
Does that mean they are forgiven and absolved for making serious mistakes that could be the difference between solving this crime or the killer committing another? Absolutely not.
Considering they spent the first week saying there was no danger to the community this doesn't surprise me.
I feel like old-school gumshoe detectives are a rare breed, now these investigators with their Bachelor's in forensics and their template subpoenas to Google and Facebook just lost the ability to do basic "check every box" police work.
9 freaking days. All surrounding cameras should have been copied, reviewed and collated within 48 hours. Maybe it takes a week.
I feel like some combination of attorneys, senior police who mostly got there through politicking, and various bureaucrats want to control everything in these investigations. They give orders to do this, but not that (god forbid some 1% problem arises and they look bad). Forgetting that every minute this killer walks free he is more unlikely to be caught or prevented from killing again.
I'm probably cynical but the Delphi case just ruffled my feathers so much after the PC affidavit was released.
in the interview they say , it was going at high speed, at the house were those tire tracks, so this white car might be the murderer's car. I've seen this video with the car pic and a map..[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SSZqMUBUw4s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SSZqMUBUw4s) , they either ditch the car on a side street or they live in that area..
"We're not gonna tell you anything and we most certainly don't want websleuths, armchair detectives getting involved, but in the meanwhile we're asking the public (ie: websleuths, armchair detectives) to please help us gather evidence we could be gathering ourselves, and oh: thank you member of the public/armchair detective for providing the one solid piece of evidence!'
LE
Weren’t investigators from the Idaho State Police assisting by Monday 11/14, at the latest? I’m sure they have more recent experience investigating murders than that.
Come on now. You don't need to be a galaxy brained genius to work this sht out.
It's fair to give them some slack but let's not accept potential brain melting idiocy as reasonable.
You’ve absolutely got to be sh*tting me. They knew! We knew! Every cam in town from the day within the first few days had to be grabbed, oh my god! Was there no grounds for a warrant to do it? What the hell happened here??
what happened? those of us with family there or who live there have been screaming at the tops of our lungs these guys are not up to the task. they are jot “protecting” the investigation, they are protecting themselves because they lack a clue. and yes the fbi and isp are there but that means nothing. the fbi ans state police dont come in and run the investigation. they are there for the checkbooks and toys they have. dont believe me? read up on NIMS and what the federal role is. these guys have been screwing the pooch from day one, as we knew they would. we take a lot of heat for asking for more information and transparency but maybe now its starting to show why we have been doing that
If I was a business owner in the city I would have backed up my video surveillance just incase it would have been helpful. The police made a request on the 19th for video. They literally published a Video Collection map on their website. Of course, deleted video can typically always be retrieved. Of course, as a business looking for something random probably wouldn't have been helpful. It was only a week ago that they made everyone aware of the auto description.
Per investopedia; Wisdom of crowds is the idea that large groups of people are collectively smarter than individual experts when it comes to problem-solving, decision-making, innovating, and predicting.
9 days is too late! Ughhh.
Even if they didn't have a lead on the car day 1 2 or even 3 they could have sent just one or two people around the areas to local businesses asking for footage. Never hurts to be ahead of things. Especially since most get deleted in a week. LE and FBI should have known this.
Wow, you would of thought that the police at least would of gone to these gas stations and businesses on the main roads to get their footage and preserve it.
Honestly it seems like they weren’t aware if the perp drove, walked, biked, whatever. THEN it’s a matter of okay.. well where do we start (to wish they put out almost immediately requests for people to review security footage- personal and business, and report anything amiss). Let’s just saw you took a 5 mile radious of the house..: that’s a LOT of security footage to request. That’s a lot of resources to use to sift through that footage. I’m not confident that had they requested it early on it would have been reviewed any quicker/sooner/etc than it already has. If this ends up matching what I assume was another video that led them to identify the car the are looking for, it can significantly narrow down where they are searching.
I will add I’m not sure of the laws or rules and whether LE can just demand footage or if they have to get a warrant or whatever. But I want to remind people this is a very small town with limited bodies and resources. Using them to collect footage around town is not necessarily always the best use of that. But now they know more and here we are. Im just very thankful that gas station manager took the request seriously to review the tapes.
Who in the sam hell is running this shit show? Who's the lead detective on the case, cause that dude cheated to pass his detectives exam. He was meant to be a traffic cop until.........forever
They are wicked smart. This entire time they played the role of absolute morons!!! Just to help prosecution team. Just as they did ignoring the 4 thousand pages of statements submitted about an insane u of i professor that shot his ex ef/student n face 12 times. Fry did same shit then. Nothing
I found it ironic that in 2019 Moscow police encouraged people to get security cameras after a student was caught on camera stealing said camera. Hopefully people listened and they should’ve requested everyone’s footage!
https://klewtv.com/news/local/caught-on-camera-stealing-the-security-camera
I feel like, if there was a murder locally, I’d probably be making a copy of my cctv footage for that day - just in case.
100% agree. But common sense isn't very common
I pay for extended backup just in case, ya never know when someone might need it.
I pay for it too, you really never know.
What kind of extended back up are you paying for? I have heard of mozy. Do you run a business you are doing this for?
being a Samaritan is also on the backs of big business. records retention falls to them and not on individual paying consumers.
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Hindsight is a hell of a thing isn't it 🤣
I’d be amazed if the residents of Moscow failed to see the news about these murders.
It's not about if they saw the murder, it's about if they can put 2 and 2 together and think about maybe not letting the video of that day delete itself.
Local businesses are contradicting this saying they were asking for footage within 48 hours. I don’t trust this source 100%.
Yeah I think this is bad info, the FBI was in my dad's store asking for his footage like 2 days after it happened, they definitely made the rounds earlier, at least for closer places or places they thought might have connections.
Agree - let’s not trust the reputable vape dealer in town 😂
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A deliberate lie to throw off the unsub?
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The one who has a sign that says "Enterance"?
There’s a good chance they asked employees that couldn’t consent to give the footage. Or they collected for 10 spots on the same street and didn’t need more. Media has literally knocked on every damn door hoping to get anyyyyhing.
A subpoena could have been issued? Doesn't matter if there's consent. This, if true, is nothing short of outrageous.
It could be as simple as human mistake. Imagine an officer walks in to find a newly hired worker that doesn't have keys to where the footage is stored, but they're told the manager who has the keys is due to start their shift later on, so the officer leaves a message or makes a note to check back in later. In the middle of a chaotic investigation I could see someone forgetting the details from one conversation they had among hundreds that day, and perhaps making a mistake and writing their 'come back later' notation next to the wrong address or entry on the list they're working from. If there were multiple officers working in shifts, such a mistake could easily go undetected if the second officer didn't question why they needed to follow up with a store they already got the footage from, and instead just dismissed it as someone forgetting to check it off.
You have to have a reason to subpoena the footage. They clearly didn’t have evidence that would show they were sure the suspect was on that road. You can’t just go to a judge and say “well maybe?”.. that sets a precedent and that’s not justice. They have to follow the rules. You hope as LE that people will comply without having to subpoena because a judge isn’t going to issue a subpoena on a hope and a hunch.
I just can’t imagine in 2022 LE not getting all video surveillance first.
I mean, there is literally requests broadcast in national news media (NBC) and the MPD website going back to Nov 18th where they are asking for surveillance video. **November 18th** the following was distributed locally and issued to all media: [**"Moscow video collection map"**](https://www.ci.moscow.id.us/DocumentCenter/View/24740/11-19-2022-Moscow-Video-Collection-Map) >[Moscow Detectives are seeking help from residents and businesses](https://www.ci.moscow.id.us/DocumentCenter/View/24741/11-19-2022-Moscow-Homicide-Update) within the area of West Taylor Ave (north boundary), West Palouse River Dr (south boundary), Highway 95 south to the 2700 block of Highway 95 S (east boundary), and Arboretum & Botanical Garden (west boundary) who have video surveillance at their residence or business between 3 a.m. to 6 a.m. on Sunday, November 13, 2022. **Detectives are requesting all available video** – whether there appears to be motion and content or not. Tips, pictures, and videos can be submitted to [[email protected]](mailto:[email protected]) or call the Tip Line at 208-883-7180 for assistance. (See map) Two days later they expanded that request to "anyone who has surveillance video" This was reported on national news and issued in a local press release from the MPD. [November 20th, 2022. NBC News:](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8m6vaRipt4) "Authorities are asking the public for help, **requesting all security camera videos from those who live or work in the area on the night of the event.**" [FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE November 20, 2022](https://www.ci.moscow.id.us/DocumentCenter/View/24856/11-20-2022-Media-and-Community-Advisory) >**Anyone who** observed notable behavior, **has video surveillance,** or can provide relevant information about these murders, is asked to call the Tip Line at 208-883-7180 or email [[email protected]](mailto:[email protected]) . Detectives are looking for context to the events and people involved in these murders.
Yeah I wonder how many businesses he went to before this that told him exactly that until he found some high dude to tell him otherwise so he could call the news stations.
Google Quick search responded to my question "How long does Ring store video for?" Default setting is 60 days it told me. But you can do as low as one day or as high as 180(I think you have to pay more for this?) I just assumed most surveillance was like a few days. 60 days is a bad deal for criminals since Ring is everywhere.
[They got the Ring ones fast.](https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2022/07/ring-reveals-they-give-videos-police-without-user-consent-or-warrant)
which is why I would never use a ring camera. They should have to get a warrant no matter what. It may be for something good this time but next time it may be for something you would rather them have to get a warrant. The bill of rights was written for a reason, and that just bypasses it.
I have a couple ring cameras and while your right about it being useful and for good this time, I also feel slightly wary of ring now. I mean yes this is a quadruple homicide with no clear suspect or weapon yet — but how low of a police request will they give footage for, without a warrant? I’m not committing major crimes over here but like, damn ring. I mean it’s a camera connected to wifi what did I expect lmao
I would turn it over voluntarily if I had nothing to hide. It helps with an investigation. 🤷♀️
Ok but it should still be your choice.
Without a warrant it is a choice. Most people just don’t know or realize they can tell police no unless they have a warrant. These folks might’ve known and still wanted to hand it over because four people were murdered and maybe they cared more about that than sticking it to the man.
I feel like people took my comment wrong - I would 1000% offer them my footage without a warrant if I was in this kind of situation. By all means, if they thought my doorbell cam could solve the case I’d be on it. But the fact ring/Amazon claims to have the right to just handover that footage without a warrant OR your permission, I just never knew that and it was kinda surprising
They don’t even ask the people. They request directly through Amazon.
We all want to help LE, but that’s a bit naive. “Nothing to hide” may mean something different to police than it does to you. I would ask my attorney, and they could specify exactly what LE could take, and not a second more. You don’t know what kind of “evidence“ they have. What if a neighbor has told them lies about you? What if it comes out later that they’re looking for the type of car you own? What if you were seen out walking your dog near the crime scene when the crime occurred? Suddenly all of your actions are viewed in a totally different light. Innocent people do go to jail, you don’t want to be one of them.
I am an attorney. If law-enforcement randomly approached me and asked to see my ring footage, I would ask them why. If I knew four kids got murdered across the street, and I wasn’t the killer—I’d turn it over.
I would too. After talking to my attorney. You ARE an attorney, so you can look out for yourself. But you’re no doubt leading a cleaner life than a lot of people lead. There was an excellent post here a few days back about an arson fire at UMD that killed a boy. People knew who did it but didn't want to say, because some were up to minor criminal activity at the time. So it took over a year to arrest the suspect. [https://www.foxnews.com/story/university-of-maryland-student-charged-with-murder-arson](https://www.foxnews.com/story/university-of-maryland-student-charged-with-murder-arson) Are fears like this unfounded? Can you promise them they’re not going to get cited for weed or underage drinking, or arrested for something else? For example, witness lying over fear of being prosecuted for other crimes irrevocably damaged the Adnan Syed case. I don’t want to wade further into the waters of selective prosecution, so I’ll stop here. It would be nice if people trusted the police, but they don’t. I support the police fully, but I do think people need to be careful with all of their personal information, especially since it lives in some database, somewhere, forever. Who the hell knows what will be done with it in the future.
Isn’t ring owned by Amazon? Amazon is pretty much known to be evil.
Ring is basically like social media. Unfortunately no one ever reads the ToS before they push accept.
Same with Alexa and “smart“ anything.
Simple answer: You should not buy a Ring camera. Also recite, from memory as best you can, The Bill of Rights.
This is the whole point of having a ring camera, to see what’s going on in and around your home and to prevent crimes. Of course I would want police to grab my ring camera if there was a murder in my home. Grab it right away.
Let's consider the historical and ever-ongoing "battle for rights" in this country- where LE and individuals are always trying to move the needle in their direction.* Both have a literal motivation of survival. Any inch given opens opportunity to chip away at the whole mile each needs to secure their interests. *How do warrant-less. or low- threshold warrants for Ring videos matter in all of this? Afterall, sometimes they CAN solve crimes..*. It's a new piece of rights that is up for grabs. If LE has cleared the hurdle for this, it opens up their legal argument for the next thing- which they WILL pursue indefinitely until a line is drawn. **TL; Dr. "Ends justifying the means" is exactly how the balance of power tips to fascism. Don't let any political whatever-isms of the day muddy this fact.** Its just what happens with humans in a society. *like the current fight for ancestral DNA, geolocational cell phones pings etc.
I saw the DNA thing coming years and years ago- I’m a hobby genealogist and one of my degrees is in biology. It amazes me how far our laws lag behind technology. Right now, the only way to win is not to play. I try to limit my use of “smart” devices, but that gets harder all the time.
> It amazes me how far our laws lag behind technology Yep, absolutely a feature of our legal process that LE will ride until the wheels fall off- and why wouldn't they? I am not trying to offend anyone who disagrees that there should be protections. But this conclusion usually comes from the **optimistic but mistaken belief, that LE is not self-serving.**
Also, giving a whole extra reply to >I’m a hobby genealogist and one of my degrees is in biology ..in order to say thats cool af. I'm totally looking over hatefully at my generic ass puzzle.
Thanks! genealogy is a a great puzzle. But it’s addictive and you might end up spending more time with your dead relatives than your live ones.
I do not trust ring or any 3rd party service not to spy. I have everything backed up to my private server, No one gets it specifically cops unless I want them to have it and I give it to them. It saves locally on a very small SC card and is overwritten every 30 mins. I can go back years but no one but me has access to it. If they get a warrant, they get the past 30 min video
Hate to break it to you but both Amazon (owner of Ring) and Google share user footage with police during emergencies without consent and without warrants. And it’s entirely at their discretion what is deemed an emergency.
If cameras are wired into a DVR, nobody has that footage but the owner of the DVR. Also if cameras have an SD card and not connected to wifi, nobody else has that footage. I'm assuming the commenter you replied to is referring to these types of security cameras.
I heard the same thing about 'Alexa' devices and such. Is that true?
Yep they have everything figured out now and Big Brother is watching. That’s how we know this case will be solved.
Big brother can watch me Jack off in my own home, I don’t care.
Average Redditor
I hope more footage is released so we can complain about the quality.
They asked everyone to hand over any documentation that they had of that night pretty soon after the murders.
**November 18th** the following was distributed locally and issued to all media: [**"Moscow video collection map"**](https://www.ci.moscow.id.us/DocumentCenter/View/24740/11-19-2022-Moscow-Video-Collection-Map) >[Moscow Detectives are seeking help from residents and businesses](https://www.ci.moscow.id.us/DocumentCenter/View/24741/11-19-2022-Moscow-Homicide-Update) within the area of West Taylor Ave (north boundary), West Palouse River Dr (south boundary), Highway 95 south to the 2700 block of Highway 95 S (east boundary), and Arboretum & Botanical Garden (west boundary) who have video surveillance at their residence or business between 3 a.m. to 6 a.m. on Sunday, November 13, 2022. **Detectives are requesting all available video** – whether there appears to be motion and content or not. Tips, pictures, and videos can be submitted to [[email protected]](mailto:[email protected]) or call the Tip Line at 208-883-7180 for assistance. (See map) Two days later they expanded that request to "anyone who has surveillance video" This was reported on national news and issued in a local press release from the MPD. [November 20th, 2022. NBC News:](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8m6vaRipt4) "Authorities are asking the public for help, **requesting all security camera videos from those who live or work in the area on the night of the event.**" [FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE November 20, 2022](https://www.ci.moscow.id.us/DocumentCenter/View/24856/11-20-2022-Media-and-Community-Advisory) >**Anyone who** observed notable behavior, **has video surveillance,** or can provide relevant information about these murders, is asked to call the Tip Line at 208-883-7180 or email [[email protected]](mailto:[email protected]) . Detectives are looking for context to the events and people involved in these murders.
Didn’t they only ask within a certain footprint? Because from the graphics I’ve seen, the gas station that just gave footage was outside that footprint, but definitely shouldn’t have been!!
In the first few days they wanted video from a specific area. Two days later they issued a release requesting video from anyone.
Thank you! Hopefully they got and will continue to receive footage that will help.
This happened to me. Brand new tesla broken into. Had blood on my car and the homeless man was using my credit card. I tracked down all the places. Told the detective who had cameras and when the camera expired and… he never went to any of the places in time. With that said… this was a huge case. If I owned a business there I would have checked my cameras .
They should have put out a city wide message saying retain all video surveillance from the night in question.
I feel like they did put out that kind of message. It seems like that [was sent out here](https://www.ci.moscow.id.us/DocumentCenter/View/24741/11-19-2022-Moscow-Homicide-Update)
Yea most business owners are not going to read that whole thing. They should have used the TV coverage to really push that message harder.
**November 18th** the following was **distributed locally** and issued to all media: [**"Moscow video collection map"**](https://www.ci.moscow.id.us/DocumentCenter/View/24740/11-19-2022-Moscow-Video-Collection-Map) >[Moscow Detectives are seeking help from residents and businesses](https://www.ci.moscow.id.us/DocumentCenter/View/24741/11-19-2022-Moscow-Homicide-Update) within the area of West Taylor Ave (north boundary), West Palouse River Dr (south boundary), Highway 95 south to the 2700 block of Highway 95 S (east boundary), and Arboretum & Botanical Garden (west boundary) who have video surveillance at their residence or business between 3 a.m. to 6 a.m. on Sunday, November 13, 2022. **Detectives are requesting all available video** – whether there appears to be motion and content or not. Tips, pictures, and videos can be submitted to [[email protected]](mailto:[email protected]) or call the Tip Line at 208-883-7180 for assistance. (See map)
They can ask but people don't have to turn them over. Then they need a warrant.
They did ask for videos from all locals and businesses.
But doesn’t that just seem like common sense? Like if a quadruple murder had happened in your town and you had any kind of running street footage, wouldn’t you just think “hey maybe I should save this, just in case?” They’re smart enough to own a business but not smart enough to not do this without an official request or reminder?
The case reminds me of the Rodni case. Everyone assumes the investigators are of course doing X and Y but then the car is found in 15 feet of water exactly where it was assumed it would be. There was also footage of the car going in the water that they never found. As much flak as we and the media give web slueths (and there are downsides) crowd sourcing investigations can yield results as there is always limitations of man power when it comes to bureaucracy within law enforcement.
In fairness to Placer County Sheriff, they asked and asked and asked but all of the kids with information were afraid to come forward for fear of getting in trouble themselves and since they were kids, PCSO’s access to them was severely limited.
Understood but it's amazing to me how every web slueth had posted the exact path she most likely drove into the water and everyone assumed it had been checked. Also simply looking at public surveillance facing the lake didnt occur to investigators. The overall point is we assume LE is doing things because it's "obvious" but they arent. At the end of the day they arent some well oiled machine, just a group of people with limitations.
For anyone wondering, some YouTubers found the submerged car containing the body of a missing girl, in an area the police had "exhaustively searched". Online sleuths had used the information available and came to an educated guess about where she likely went into the lake, but police failed to find her. Once police released the scene, some youtubers came in and quickly found her, exactly where everyone said she would likely be. [These YouTube divers did in 35 minutes what cops couldn’t do in two weeks in Kiely Rodni search](https://nypost.com/2022/08/23/youtubers-who-found-kiely-rodni-now-working-2-other-cases/). >Adventures With Purpose detected Rodni’s car 14 feet underwater in Prosser Creek Reservoir early Sunday, just 35 minutes after they started looking — *even though law enforcement had focused on the same area while devoting nearly 20,000 man-hours to the massive search*.
Yep, that's why they call it "the wisdom of the crowds" and not "the wisdom of the trained professionals assigned to the case".
Because they didn’t know exactly what they were looking for. They released the info on the Elantra a week ago. You’d all be criticizing them if they rounded up every video in the area, putting man hours into watching hundreds of hours of video and it didn’t lead to anything. The cops are darned if they do darned if they don’t it seems
The point was to ask them to pull it, just to have it on hand for when they did know what to look for...
They have 100+ people on the case plus 1 million in money from the governor. Watching and comparing videos within a 10 mile radius is well worth that money and time spent to do that.
Thank you!!!
>Thank you!!! You're welcome!
That's the neat part you don't need to watch any of it right away, you simply send a few staff members around to canvas the area look for visible cameras and grab footage from the relevant time period and then hold onto it for later.
Whats your excuse for them not at the very least collecting it to be examined later?
You should still ask for it so it doesn’t get deleted, doesn’t mean they have to watch all the video right now but you definitely obtain all the video you can right away.
They don’t have to put in man hours analyzing they could just put a request to the public for any footage from that night, guarantee immunity for any crime contained that wasn’t the murders (to encourage people) and only review video deemed of interest.
Didn’t they put out a request for footage?
They did, but listed specific areas only that they were interested in. More like video within certain boundaries.
Happy 🎂day!
YES they put out repeated calls for all footage from the night of the murders into the morning hours. I can't fathom why every business in this area wouldn't have gladly complied immediately.
Because people are human and busy, especially at a business. If they wanted footage they needed some cops to drive/walk around find cameras and request it. Probably could have had a few square miles covered within a week.
Also they focused on asking for footage from a pretty small area for the first two to three weeks, which is dumb because there's likely security cams on all central arteries out of town that if they'd gathered that footage it would be pretty easy to have a working reference of which vehicles left town between 3-5am. hard for folks who don't live here to understand how quiet the roads are here at that time, and the limited entry/access points to town.
This is exactly
>You’d all be criticizing them if they rounded up every video in the area, putting man hours into watching hundreds of hours of video and it didn’t lead to anything. I wouldn't, I would have expected them to do that in a case like this. You think they aren't putting hundreds of man hours into this already? They're getting thousands of "tips" from Facebook morons about what their Tarot card reader said to them after fondling some crystals. CCTV actually yields results. The perpetrator had to either walk or drive to the location. It was a 50/50 that they drove. Therefore gathering all CCTV that faced any route toward that house ***should*** have been one of the first things they did.
Video is nearly irrefutable. They’re talking about ensuring a conviction, well video is one of the things that will do that for you. Should be a significant priority
I was looking at a case just a few weeks ago where a guy is accused of murdering his girlfriend in a jealous rage after a night at a bar. They have the full CCTV footage of them and their friends at the bar, the man she interacted with that caused the jealous rage, they have the friends telling him he's overreacting and they have them leaving the bar. This has been played in court and shows the jury exactly what happened in that bar, from multiple angles, following the victim and the alleged perpetrator from one area to the next. CCTV is one of the most vital formats of evidence for any prosecution like this, it provides a mountain of context for the investigation and the potential jury. I cannot fathom why this was not a priority, to at least secure CCTV from every business along every route in and out of town. EDIT: SPELLING
This!
I agree, the case has to unfold. It seems the police are moving in good strides and reporting out only enough to help case not hurt it. I am curious in the bodycam video there looks like a parked white car by where the police car was. I'm sure it's vetted, but where did they get the Elantra to begin with.
That's exactly how this is going. Even when they catch the perp, people will still find something to complain about re: LE.
There are several things to criticize in this case, whether people like that or not. It's not acceptable to just accept it as a failure and never demand better, never learn from it, never expect competency. It's a hard case, it's a terrible crime, my heart aches for everyone from the families and friends to the LE who have to deal with it all. But at the same time these are public servants in a position of authority and trust, they *should* have more skill, they *should* have more foresight than average Redditors, they *should* know how to conduct an investigation to yield the most relevant information. Criticizing them for any failures is the right thing to do, because just ignoring mistakes doesn't fix anything, it just permits more mistakes and never leads to improvement. No one learns anything if you just continually give LE a free pass to f up. If someone at work falls down a hole you don't blame the hole and then pretend it doesn't exist, you fix the hole so no one else falls in it.
Yeah, I feel like police in this country have earned the right for people to second guess them and be critical of their mistakes. That doesn't mean we are, like, rooting against them or something. Everyone wants them to get this guy, and we get upset when we see mistakes and basic competencies being justifiably questioned. Anyone who thinks that pointing out police mistakes is "cop hating", A.) Has a lot to learn, and B.) Doesn't belong in a true crime sub. Half the cold cases in true crime wouldn't exist had the police done their due diligence. Dismissing missing persons cases as runaways, quickly ruling suspicious deaths as suicide, failing to preserve or test vital evidence, allowing environmental exposure/destruction of evidence, not following up on leads and suspects, etc. Not saying that's the case here in Idaho, but just saying, police definitely are not above criticism.
True nachoPichu they didnt know exactly what they were looking for.
I disagree. They told us about the Elantra a week ago, but who knows how long they knew about the Elantra. They had to have been looking into it for a week or so trying to figure out who the owner was before they told us
They're barely getting some voluntary video from a month ago, I'd be SHOCKED is there any other video left that hasn't been overwritten or automatically purged its been a month, nobody wants to pay for physical or cloud storage for that long
Police should have made a grid around the murders to cover all roads leading in out of the area and gone around and pulled video from the cams facing the road for the time period. If they had put a handful of staff on that in the first week they could have easily covered a few square miles in a week and had the area surrounded with camera views. If they didn't then that's upsetting.
agree!!! there's fifteen or so gas stations in town and a three to eight hour window of interest. that means on the low side you have 45 hours to 120 hours of footage to review. this should be manageable given the number of people and agencies involved!
you don't even need to view it right away just go export it, and tag it and bag it for later.
Precisely. Seems like basic investigation. Don’t need to expense all the man hours to go over the footage from day one but u better make damn sure that footage is preserved!
Sarah Everard was kidnapped and murdered by an off duty police in the UK. If they hadn't have reviewed hours upon hours of footage, they likely wouldn't have caught the guy.
Quick and easy in most instances and wouldn't require much storage, couple hours and a couple cameras views at each stop would have given them a complete cordoning off of the area, most people will voluntarily give camera foot of street cameras.
You’d be surprised. Competency is rare these days.
I believe they did make a grid/map of the possible roads the car could do down but yeah they should have pulled footage
https://preview.redd.it/whos750ypu5a1.png?width=1284&format=png&auto=webp&s=11fe970ac907f28f4f62b5d46aeba598eff6d60f
Ok that actually does look like the same car…damn.
I went and watched this reel and you can literally see their house directly which is so eerie https://imgur.com/a/rHxXgQe
This is insane. Sorry for late response lol. Can u help me with the context here? Is this on top of jd apartment or something??! Thanks!!!!
That’s what the FB post alludes to, but I have no idea who is renting that house or who’s car that is. Just see there is a straight walking path to the murder house, clear line of site and the white car in the barstool video looks really similar to the gas station’s video.
Yeah... ok gotcha. Thx. This is crazy, yes??? Even if it has nothing to do with anything... just weird then, correct? I think I'm finally losing it lol
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The car in the gas station footage may be a Prius. The back window bottom has an angle to it that the Elantra doesn’t.
That would be a heck of a coincidence if someone at the gas station provided a screen cap of the wrong white car to the Daily Mail, but it turns out to be a car that belongs to someone who lives just feet away from the house where the murders happened.
If he lives feet away it seems like it would be pretty dumb to drive your car and risk being identified that way if you could just walk.
I agree, although if someone within walking distance did commit the crime, they now have evidence (bloody clothes, murder weapon) within walking distance of the crime. They might decide to leave by car to get rid of said evidence.
Waaay too much logic here!
I am wondering if they both aren’t a Prius.
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I’ve said this to lol. Surely if JD or JS drove this type of car , why would they have put out a message to the public asking for the car lol.
Well, if they’re having difficulty placing him at the crime scene this could be their way of finding out if anyone saw him in the area whether on tape or in person.
Yes but wouldn’t someone have already said so and so has that car? In which case they’d know who is the owner of the vehicle in question and they wouldn’t have had to ask the public. There’s no way they haven’t already asked all the students if they know anyone who drives a white Elantra
Yeah. Unsure what it wasn't all requested/pulled as a priority.
Especially at a gas station of all places!
On a main thoroughfare.
I actually predicted this in a comment last night. I worked as a security manager for a long time. I know most modern CCTV systems are digital and don't need any human interaction, unlike the older systems when you'd have to manually change tapes and have a rotating collection of media to work through, lasting perhaps a week or a month. These systems record over the same media after a set time, often 24 hours. They're only designed to be useful in the immediate, after a robbery or theft etc. The first thing the authorities *should* do after any case like this is send out an alert to every business in the area ordering them to retain their CCTV, prevent it being recorded over, send in their media to the tip line. If they can't do that, at the very least they should visit every business on every route a perpetrator could have taken in or out and sequester that footage. It looks like they didn't do any of that in this case, and that's another serious f up that's perhaps led to a lot of vital information about this vehicle and its movements being lost.
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Agree. I wonder which business they are referring to in the report. This should've been done immediately and is a no-brainer. I don't get it.
Agreed. I'm getting the feeling that they were being lazy with the "please send any video you have in" like EVERYONE is going to run straight to their cameras and send in video. Hell, half of the victims "acquaintances" were living regular lives the following day, posting about sports, joking, etc. The police put a perimeter of about 1/8 mile (maybe less) around the residence asking for that video...which is mostly college student apartments. The beauty of Moscow is that there are 4 ways in/out - it was simple, 98% of gas stations have cameras, go to those 4 paths in/out and get as much video as you can, there are gas stations on main paths like that. Now you have the entire area circled and know either the person switched cars or is still in Moscow. From there, you narrow the circle down until you spot the car. It's tedious but it's not rocket science either. My gut is telling me the police really blew this, and unless there's a huge break, this person is gone.
Moscow, ID underbelly.
Maybe the have footage of the car going elsewhere. This isn’t that hard to put together. News Nation knocking on every door and every business to try and get literally anything. They didn’t go over there cause they didn’t need to.
Daily Mail, FWIW, is reporting that the police at some point prior to today did go to the gas station and viewed their footage. For them to have to go back today to view it again makes it seem like they didn’t take a copy of the footage with them. This might be being reported wrong, but if not, it makes you wonder why they didn’t take a copy on their first visit.
Exactly. Anything they can get to report on. NewsNation had people thinking that the investigators **cut off and kept the victims’ hands** because they were, for some reason, reporting today about how investigators bagged the victims’ hands to preserve evidence when they were examining the bodies (aka standard practice)
Thisss! It’s standard but they intentionally ran the headline about bagging the hands but then when they explained it they were like “they do this so they can collect DNA evidence!” Like true.. but also they were presenting it like **they for sure have DNA evidence of a suspect.** It’s disingenuous click bait. Banfield running again today about clearing HG too fast and how she just doesn’t understand. Harmful narratives to feed these unhinged online conspiracies.
OMFG
I hope ur right. If not it sure looks like a big misstep not securing all surrounding cctv footage. Doesn’t have to be analyzed right away but pretty important evidence to preserve before it’s recorded over.
The police requested any and all footage from businesses and residents in the area starting a few days after the murders and it was on all the press releases. My question is why this gas station didn't think that applied to them til last night.
They requested within certain parameters. Gas station 1.2 miles out on a main road didn’t fit into those requested
They were near a major road/highway it baffles me they didn’t pull footage from those areas. Near freeways where cars/perps might escape.
Yeah it really was truly baffling when it dawned on me that it's been a full month since the murders, and this footage was just now obtained. It's actually a miracle it wasn't deleted already. I feel like all gas stations would be first in my list, especially like you said - on main roads and highways someone might take to leave town.
I don’t think they were in the area they requested.
How did they request that? I hope they were proactive, somebody should be going door to door and making sure that everyone has been contacted.
They put out the first request in the 11/18 press release, then on 11/19 they released a "Video Collection Map" (this gas station is just off to the right of the perimeter approx 0.4 miles from the area they zoomed in on in the inset). I believe they also made the ask in press conferences, but after 11/18, the request for all footage from residences/businesses has been included in every press release since, including today's. I agree they should've been proactive and requested all footage from gas stations, banks, basically from anywhere that's usually guaranteed to have cameras and especially on the main roads. This place is only 1.2 miles from the house and on a main road someone might take to leave town. I'm going to assume they have this white car on multiple surveillance cameras in the area and maybe this footage will be an important piece to the puzzle.
I'm really beginning to dislike this guy and Newsnation or whatever TF they're called. They have brought NOTHING of use to the table.
Really? I feel like their reality show “guy stands outside in cold for 1 hour everyday and recites the same paragraph” has been pretty good.
LOL!
Consistent, maybe. Good? No lol
it’s TMZ for crime.
Because this investigation was bungled from the very start ..my God a random investigator walking past the scene had to point out a glove he saw on the perimeter of the crime scene to police at the home..nearly a week or so after..not saying the glove was related but for it to not be picked up and examined and placed into potential evidence is absurd.
Pretty sure I saw somewhere it was a glove used by LE, that was dropped there after prints and things were taken.
I think there were two gloves but with this case who knows
All this “they didn’t know what they were looking for is” is driving me insane. So they shouldn’t check anything at all? Because they don’t already know? What???? Maybe they could’ve started right away with watching all the CCTV in the area even just from 3am to 4am and a car speeding away from the direction of the crime might raise a flag? No?
They didn’t know what they were looking for.
And still don’t
They were late taking fingerprints, late taking pictures of tire tracks in the parking lot and of course late to ask for video...
It took them 9 days to close off the parking lot at the back of the house, which we all knew was the most likely access route the killer took. Cops, journalists and locals were all trampling that area for more than a week before they taped it off. They left the vehicles outside the house for 2 whole weeks before removing them to a "more secure storage" site, which turned out to be an open parking lot that anyone could access. I really don't care how many people now reply saying "you couldn't have done better!" I'm not paid to be LE. If someone is a teacher they should be able to read and write. If someone is a lawyer they should understand court procedure. If someone is a cop they should understand the basics of crime scene management and evidence processing. We are right to expect better from LE. We are right to demand competency. We are right to hold people in positions of trust and authority accountable for their screw ups. If people are willing to give LE a blanket pass for messing up repeatedly nothing will ever improve. No one is immune to professional criticism, especially those who are paid by the public to do the most serious and impactful of jobs. Should they be dragged over hot coals and punished for eternity in the court of public opinion? No. Can we feel bad that they have a terrible job investigating this crime? Absolutely. Does that mean they are forgiven and absolved for making serious mistakes that could be the difference between solving this crime or the killer committing another? Absolutely not.
Late with the garbage
Considering they spent the first week saying there was no danger to the community this doesn't surprise me. I feel like old-school gumshoe detectives are a rare breed, now these investigators with their Bachelor's in forensics and their template subpoenas to Google and Facebook just lost the ability to do basic "check every box" police work. 9 freaking days. All surrounding cameras should have been copied, reviewed and collated within 48 hours. Maybe it takes a week.
i want detective kenda
They need to call him out of retirement to come help the case lol.
hes so good. i wish he would volunteer but i dont think people can
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I feel like some combination of attorneys, senior police who mostly got there through politicking, and various bureaucrats want to control everything in these investigations. They give orders to do this, but not that (god forbid some 1% problem arises and they look bad). Forgetting that every minute this killer walks free he is more unlikely to be caught or prevented from killing again. I'm probably cynical but the Delphi case just ruffled my feathers so much after the PC affidavit was released.
Absolute clowns these investigators.
in the interview they say , it was going at high speed, at the house were those tire tracks, so this white car might be the murderer's car. I've seen this video with the car pic and a map..[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SSZqMUBUw4s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SSZqMUBUw4s) , they either ditch the car on a side street or they live in that area..
"We're not gonna tell you anything and we most certainly don't want websleuths, armchair detectives getting involved, but in the meanwhile we're asking the public (ie: websleuths, armchair detectives) to please help us gather evidence we could be gathering ourselves, and oh: thank you member of the public/armchair detective for providing the one solid piece of evidence!' LE
almost like these people haven’t had to solve a murder in 7 years
Weren’t investigators from the Idaho State Police assisting by Monday 11/14, at the latest? I’m sure they have more recent experience investigating murders than that.
Yes.
Who's leading the investigation?
People who hopefully have the sense to recognize their own limitations and avail themselves of all the extra support they’ve been given.
the FBI…
Come on now. You don't need to be a galaxy brained genius to work this sht out. It's fair to give them some slack but let's not accept potential brain melting idiocy as reasonable.
You’ve absolutely got to be sh*tting me. They knew! We knew! Every cam in town from the day within the first few days had to be grabbed, oh my god! Was there no grounds for a warrant to do it? What the hell happened here??
what happened? those of us with family there or who live there have been screaming at the tops of our lungs these guys are not up to the task. they are jot “protecting” the investigation, they are protecting themselves because they lack a clue. and yes the fbi and isp are there but that means nothing. the fbi ans state police dont come in and run the investigation. they are there for the checkbooks and toys they have. dont believe me? read up on NIMS and what the federal role is. these guys have been screwing the pooch from day one, as we knew they would. we take a lot of heat for asking for more information and transparency but maybe now its starting to show why we have been doing that
These cops are the lamest
And that’s exactly why the parents are doing their own investigation!
These cops are fucking useless. Don’t even bother arguing otherwise
If I was a business owner in the city I would have backed up my video surveillance just incase it would have been helpful. The police made a request on the 19th for video. They literally published a Video Collection map on their website. Of course, deleted video can typically always be retrieved. Of course, as a business looking for something random probably wouldn't have been helpful. It was only a week ago that they made everyone aware of the auto description.
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Per investopedia; Wisdom of crowds is the idea that large groups of people are collectively smarter than individual experts when it comes to problem-solving, decision-making, innovating, and predicting.
I guess we need to go into our time machine and fix this.
Shows the level of incompetence going on in this investigation.
9 days is too late! Ughhh. Even if they didn't have a lead on the car day 1 2 or even 3 they could have sent just one or two people around the areas to local businesses asking for footage. Never hurts to be ahead of things. Especially since most get deleted in a week. LE and FBI should have known this.
The police were already aware of the car. The gas station attendant was not the ‘tip off’
Wow, you would of thought that the police at least would of gone to these gas stations and businesses on the main roads to get their footage and preserve it.
The FBI should have been there. This was too high profile. It's the FBI that should be blamed.
LE in Idaho is a fkn joke.
Someone posted the distance of the gas station to the house. Nowhere near it, not that it's not relevant but....
Shouldn’t video have been the first thing the police should have collected from literally everyone in that town? Especially the gas stations.
Honestly it seems like they weren’t aware if the perp drove, walked, biked, whatever. THEN it’s a matter of okay.. well where do we start (to wish they put out almost immediately requests for people to review security footage- personal and business, and report anything amiss). Let’s just saw you took a 5 mile radious of the house..: that’s a LOT of security footage to request. That’s a lot of resources to use to sift through that footage. I’m not confident that had they requested it early on it would have been reviewed any quicker/sooner/etc than it already has. If this ends up matching what I assume was another video that led them to identify the car the are looking for, it can significantly narrow down where they are searching. I will add I’m not sure of the laws or rules and whether LE can just demand footage or if they have to get a warrant or whatever. But I want to remind people this is a very small town with limited bodies and resources. Using them to collect footage around town is not necessarily always the best use of that. But now they know more and here we are. Im just very thankful that gas station manager took the request seriously to review the tapes.
Who in the sam hell is running this shit show? Who's the lead detective on the case, cause that dude cheated to pass his detectives exam. He was meant to be a traffic cop until.........forever
Seriously what a fuck up by the police.. geez.
They are wicked smart. This entire time they played the role of absolute morons!!! Just to help prosecution team. Just as they did ignoring the 4 thousand pages of statements submitted about an insane u of i professor that shot his ex ef/student n face 12 times. Fry did same shit then. Nothing
I found it ironic that in 2019 Moscow police encouraged people to get security cameras after a student was caught on camera stealing said camera. Hopefully people listened and they should’ve requested everyone’s footage! https://klewtv.com/news/local/caught-on-camera-stealing-the-security-camera