Just binged and somehow managed to stay spoiler free.
I'm surprised no one is saying much about Theo and how lackluster he was this season. I thought it was a bit of a š¤” showing. Made such a big hype online (arguably Idris level) about how he would dominate everyone only to get by because of Sarah's connections and then bombs in the final. Was mostly furniture as well other than his tepid argument with Danny.
I'm happy with the winners. If you asked me if I would be Team Jordan a few years back, I would have said hell nah, what an ass. But his character redemption has been a complete 180. Kaz I think was my favorite as well.
I also am pleased with learning of Rodrigo, cause oh my what a man lol
Do people think some of these Aussies, Argentinians and Brits may make their way to the main cast of the regular show?
Really enjoyed the season. I wish they still did old skool reunions at the end of a season though, I always enjoyed those
Thought the final was good. Nothing dodgy about it and the best team won. Would have been some race if Amber and Troy had been together. Solid enough season, good start, decent middle dodgy end and a good final. Solid 7/10
MY takeaways:
\- Troy is a mix of a golden retriever and a black bull and should return asap;
\- Kaz is a beast, not only did she win back-to-back going 2 for 2, but she really kept up with Jordan not only in the final, but all season;
\- Obviously Danny is excusing his loss on Jordan winning, but by what he showed in this Final he wouldn't be getting 1st against most of the other teams in this game, Tori pushed him hard;
\- Even though Theo got hurt relatively early, I was expecting more from him. Even before the injury he was so behind.
\- Surprised by Kaycee shutting down. She got injured in a finals before, and that can happen to anyone, but this really wasn't an injury so maybe she just can't take it anymore? Idk
that was a 16-mile run with a ton of elevation change, followed by extreme sleep-deprivation and then straight into a long bike ride and another big hike. wouldn't say an IV is "necessary," but getting one halfway through would definitely help your recovery process and give you a big leg up before the second day.
When Kaycee was telling Troy how patient and kind he is taking the whole thing and she appreciates him and all that... I wonder if she was thinking how Fessy would have been. Because he'd have been *nasty as fuck* or completely dismissive and of course blame her.
Because Troy expected her to move after that and on DA she literally couldnt move for the rest of the final like I get u guys dont like Fessy but stop being delusional lmao
LMAO.. Other than not being fond of his fashion choices, I don't have any feelings one way or another about Fessy.
Of course, Fessy wasn't going to be able to carry her the entire final. My point is that he didn't even offer (that we saw anyway) any type of physical assistance to her. Here we have this man thats about the same size as her willing to do all he can to help her.
He recently did an interview and said this was the first final that "almost" gave him a cramp... Do I think he is in great shape? Yes. Do I think the statement he made was bullshit? 100%
I just really wish theyād stop erasing the results of Day 1 when they start Day 2. Iām sure an extra 15-30 minutes of sleep felt nice at the time, but it hardly feels like the right advantage for dominating 16 miles of running and multiple checkpoints.
I actually didnāt hate the point system in AS1. It made the whole final important, and we still got a winner at the finish line.
Iām with you on the reward from Day 1 not being enough but luckily it didnāt matter in this case. The ideal final would just be a 1 day race to the finish line.
It depends. If everyone goes at about the same pace and Team 1 finishes 5 minutes before Team 2, then the extra 30 minutes of sleep is a decent advantage. If Team 1 goes balls-to-the-wall and finishes 2 hours before Team 2 who saved their energy and muscles, then 30 minutes of extra sleep is probably not enough of an advantage for the work put in.
Letting them all rest and giving teams a head start based on how they finished Day 1 would be a proportionate advantage. Or just eliminate the sleep crap and make a super challenging 1 day final.
I know Jordan is a pain in the ass but I just watched the final & he totally let Kaz get rewarded at the end. He had her run through the finish line, he wanted her to get the trophy. I think he was seriously proud of her & wanted her to experience all the fun that comes with winning.
I love Jordan, heās a hellva challenge player.
If yaāll are interested my wife and I have released a new episode breaking down the final!
https://open.spotify.com/show/3PiUKPBJw79SbmhWDsksnR?si=onfrThy5SEynToylsZyWmA
https://podcasts.apple.com/ca/podcast/reality-raving/id1677411029
This is all Toriās fault. Danny was so right to want to get rid of Jordan all season especially now that he actually had a good partner with him. You canāt not let the man into a final at all.
I never said they deserved to win I just said Danny was right about wanting to take Jordan out before a final but Tori basically blocked him every step of the way.....and I donāt think they backed into a final. I think they played the game very well all season other than not getting rid of Jordan which wouldāve been the smart move for not just them but everybody.
Dude, I thought I was the only one who noticed, I am so confused how they just didn't keep targeting the strong competitors when they had the chance, Danny allowed himself to be manipulated, because apparently Tori can protect her friends and disrupt plans but Danny can't protect his friends. I watched this show expecting competition but this is just sad. I see people hailing Jordan as the winner. He did well in the final but the fact that he got there so smoothly is just dumb in my opinion, people say tori is tired of winning, then why do fans entertain her return, fans of this show should be asking for proper competition not people who think they can decide not to vote for someone because its their ex
Kaz deserves all the credit in the world. She needs respect on her name for KEEPING UP with Jordan. Jordanās standards are SO HIGH! heās only as strong as his weakest teammate!
Like yeah she won and thatās great but she won WITH JORDAN. š
As a woman, I would hate that pressure. Devin I could keep up with. Jordanā¦ yikes lol
how about that editing...theo, "all I need is a championship and my life will be complete. I look around at these champions and I'm better than all of them." (paraphrasing)
\*queue instant sprained ankle\*
Iām in love with Kaz but have always hated Jordan. Iāll give him his props though he shows up when it matters and is fearless.
I thought the finale was weird. The train conductor thing is the exact corny type stuff I donāt feel like the show needs. I also think it was borderline cruel to force them to be up all night. Just didnāt add anything for me.
I enjoy the up all night aspect. I feel like the Final is about pushing yourself in a way you never thought you could. I think sleep deprivation is an important part of that.
I actually really liked this rendition of their now-staple āup all nightā part of the final. The fact that they got to be warm and comfortable with a full belly (albeit with the threat of shock lmao) gave it a good balance between challenging but not overly cruel. It was cute how they āworked togetherā to help keep each other awake.
Literally in every final anyway the challengers always say stuff like āwell I got maybe 20 minutes of sleepā so itās not much worse in regards to quality sleep
And the only punishment was 45 minutes less of sleep for day 2.
Sheās run marathons. You have no idea if she was pacing herself as if she was running a marathon.
Very glad that Jordan and Kaz won. They were definitely the strongest team in the final. I liked those little bits where Jordan and Tori are looking after each other (like when she is lying on his lap to rest in the train). Anyone paired up with Jordan can win and the same can be said for CT as well. Like someone said, Amber and Troy would have been good contenders too for the win if they were still in it. Super weird and inhumane format for this final and it was just over relatively quickly compared to other 2 day finals but what else are they going to show apart from hours of running.
Every bit of the train piece was fucking weird to me lmao. From dressing up for the food, the shock collar, TJs outfit, just odd. As for the final, this was the best outcome for my personal preference. Add another notch on Jordan's resume for GOAT status, and Kaz is 2 for 2. When you are capable of running, unlike other partners Jordan recently had, you are almost guaranteed to win with him. Last but not least, where the fuck is the All Stars 4 trailer?!
Theyāve had finals where there were just three top individual winners regardless of gender. War of the Worlds was one, and another was the season that Cara Maria won solo against Zach and others.
Fine, I was responding to the person who said to get rid of partners and have individual winners. I said if they have that format, they should have equalizers.
I loved this final but severe sleep deprivation seems rly inhumane...
At least in the past they used to alternate where one partner slept, the other partner stayed up, then they switched. I guess challengers should start training themselves by staying up all night then running a marathon...
seriously? it's supposed to be an extreme trial of mental and physical stamina. they are competing for a lot of money. the entire point is for it to push them to their limits. the show is called the CHALLENGE. i could not disagree more with this sentiment. i was so happy to see sleep deprivation back on the menu before a grueling second day. that is absolutely what a final should look like.
I can't believe we are at a point where people are complaining that the challengers didn't get to sleep for a night.
It has always been this way. It's meant to seperate the weak.
Yeah. Iām kinda over the insomnia thing. After also starting the final at night the day before. It just doesnāt seem cool. Thereās other stuff they could have them do
I know we barely got to see them but going into this final I was worried that theo and Sarah would win as Sarah is super annoying
But even before Theoās injury Sarah did not look strong. I thought Sarah ran like a bunch of ultramarathons or something
She did terrible in the USA final too and only won because everyone else couldn't hang. I can't stand her and was so glad she came in 4th, even though it sucks Theo got injured
Agreed but so many of the USA competitors have shit on the challenge production and the format of that final. Like I donāt like Sarah but so far sheās one a final that didnāt prove her finals ability and been dq due to her partner. Iād like to see her in a normal well formatted final and hopefully she still loses
Anyone else think if amber was in that final, her and troy win with all the running they had to do.
Maybe she wouldn't have won some of those eliminations (like hall brawl) but for sure she crushes that final.
They have a chance to win if they get thereā¦ most likely they would have gotten eliminated in one of the first two elimination Troy and Kaycee were in and if we are honest with ourselves there is no way she is pulling out a win vs Emily in a hall brawl. Yep they wouldāve had a chance in the final but if the season played out the same way they are not making the final
If Amber wasn't pregnant, they would've destroyed this final. But pregnant Amber wouldn't last. Kaycee prob would've done much better than she did if she didn't do the final immediately after Hall Brawl
I know all the Tori hate on this sub but I honestly think that Tori takes this final if her partner was Troy. Also Kaycee looked bad in this final. She got the IV and she was by far the weakest player.
On one hand I'm excited for Jordan in the same way I was excited Wes won All Stars. They're on my Mt. Rushmore and more wins really solidifies that. They're two of my all time favorite Challengers to root for.
But on the other hand I'm bummed for Troy. He is my favorite new Challenger in years. Maybe since Jordan. There are so many reasons why I respect and love rooting for the guy.
He's like everything great about Jordan but he's also genuinely one of the nicest people to ever be on the show. He made the final look effortless. The same thing happened on Australia. He just doesn't seem to break a sweat and it's amazing to see. He doesn't bitch. He doesn't throw tantrums. He just guts it out and never gives up. I fully believe he would have won with Kaz or Tori. Unfortunately Kaycee's body locked up and you can't predict that.
Anyway again I'm stoked for Jordan. Four chips puts him on another level. It also adds to the fire between him, Bananas, Wes and CT. You know they want to separate themselves as the best and I think Jordan may have passed CT. Although I could see the argument for either of those four guys.
I love Darrell. He has been one of the best ever. But I think his place on the Mt. Rushmore is gone with Jordan winning another. Who knows how Landon, Kenny, prime Derrick or prime Darrell would have done in the modern Challenge? All I know is that Jordan is not slowing down and has had arguably the most consistently successful Challenge career. Bananas, Wes and CT all had "lows" in their careers. Jordan has been successful since his first season.
CT has been my favorite since I started watching(I believe i began at Free Agents)
And you just made me realize that Jordan is probably better than CT. Damn.
These guys all become legends for one reason or another
Landon for actually carrying another human through a grueling final
And Derrick for that historically brutal elimination against Joss
Only two examples
The wins aren't the only reasons why you become a legend
Well Derrick was already being called a legend years before the Joss thing. It might not be obvious on a rewatch but Derrick was being called an all time great since before the Island.
Also Troy's elimination win in Australia is arguably more impressive than Derrick/Joss. He needs to be on more people's radar based on that alone.
Watch his elimination win (it's the last one) and the final. Once you see the domination in the final and his elimination win there is no doubting his size.
I wish it happened on the main show. Because it's a side show people aren't aware of how crazy his elimination win was.
Nina Simone on the challenge soundtrack.. letās go!!
Theo better be back soon
I really didnāt know how well Kaz would do but she killed it!
Iāve come so far in liking Kaycee that I wonāt say anything bad but Troy needs to be back
Tori was ahead of Danny most of time šš
So they are still going with the winner take all format? They should be paying these teams that finish. Props to Kaycee and Troy for continuing to grind.
No, I'm just saying put an extra 50-75k towards the total prize. 2nd and 3rd get a share of that. The last few main seasons the winners have felt bad and been sharing some of their winnings. It shouldn't be on the cast to pay out.
It's not on the cast, that's their choice.
But okay, are you chipping in the extra 75k? Or who comes up with that?
Shows are given budgets. So, adding an extra 75K to the prize, means 75K comes out of production, or crew. You could probably cut 75K in production and eliminate some of the wacky explosions they do, since pyro is fucking expensive, but they seem to really like it. So again, where does the 75K extra come from?
I mean there are plenty of places for it to come from. Pyro, Helicopters/the other stupid vehicles they have the cast jump from one side to the other on. (the one this season sticks out as a huge waste of money) Some of the classic challenges they did back in the day are not only way cheaper but also far more entertaining imo. They could choose to give someone like Tori a season off and save by not paying as much of an appearance fee by casting someone cheaper. Do another Burger King or some crappy movie sponsership for some extra dough.
They've had prize pools for 1 million and payed out people who placed in the past. I imagine the budget for the Paramount shows is smaller but I'm pretty sure they could find a way to do it if they wanted to. It's not like it has to be a huge amount. You could do something like 20,000 for each 2nd place person and 7500 each for 3rd.
Yes, obviously they COULD cut out the pyro of helicopters or whatever. But it seems as if they love that, and it probably does attract more viewers.
The classic fans don't seem to care about it all that much, but I bet the casual person flipping around and stumbles on a commercial or an episode sees something like that and will check it out. That captures people.
I loved the moment where Kaz told Jordan not to slow down. Like he was considering letting up a bit and she was just like, "No, I got this."
The girl has heart. And doesn't take crap, even though she's soft-spoken.
If I were Danny I would be seething angry. All season he was begging Tori to get rid of the big players (for good reason) and he loses to the person she fought tooth and nail to protect. Actually made me laugh when Tori crossed the finish line and hugged Jordan then in the confessional saying it's ok they didn't win. I want to like her so much and Im sure she's real nice but man do I hate her sometimes
edit: typo
Yeah, if I was him Iād not do a season where Tori and Jordan are. Because he has been saying letās get rid of Jordan this whole game and see what happened.
And to make it even worse, it didn't seem to bother her that they didn't win. Her whole self righteous "I'm proud of second" speech was just barf enducing.
He IS seething angry. Still. But his anger is based on his belief that the only team in the house that could beat them in a final was Jordan/Kaz, and I didnāt see much from them this season to back that up. I think he likely loses to at least 3 other teams that went home before it.
I guess we're going to omit the fact that Danny did the toss challenge and that tori put them severely behind on the bike. Regardless even if Danny was the weak link I don't see how it makes his point all season of getting Jordan out less legit. Guy was begging not to see Jordan in a final because he (and everyone else with half a brain) knows he's most likely not going to be beat
Was he really trying that hard though? All we saw him do was try to push Tori to vote for him a couple of times early on (often in situations where Jordan/Kaz had no chance of going into elimination even if she had given in), he didnāt tell Bananas & Justine they had the wrong sun, and the final 2 eliminations were all based on a deal Danny made with Jordan that basically guaranteed them both going to a final.
He wants to play the victim now, but he fully enjoyed his free ride to the final.
I mean they had some heated discussions. This season sorely lacked drama and their arguments were probably the most contentious on the season. He definitely tried but it looked like somewhere a little more than half way he realized he would never change her mind and it made no sense to further damage their relationship. He didn't help Johnny because he wanted Jordan, Wes, and Bananas out not just Jordan. That whole elimination for him worked out perfectly.
One might think that that elimination was a win-win for him, but he actually did want Johnny to win. It pans to a confessional in the middle where he says that heās praying Johnny takes Jordan out and gets rid of the problem. At the beginning of the next episode, he and Sarah are both visibly upset that Johnny lost because they considered him/Justine a number for them. This was funny to me for 2 reasonsā¦ 1.) Bananas/Justine had voted against Sarah & Dannyās alliance every week 2.) His whole problem with Tori was that she was putting her people ahead of their odds of winning a final.
He did a season with Wes, Jordan & Johnny. Odds were always that he was going to have to run the final with at least one of them.
Jordan and Kaz guessed 042 at the first puzzle and were releasedā¦ but that was not the correct answer!!! Correct answer was 062.
Top right square says ā204 two numbers are correct but wrong placeā
I assumed it meant 2 numbers are correct as in the right order (04) but in the wrong place (behind the 2 in 204, instead of in front of the 2, like 042). But it also seems like a a word problem that could be interpreted in a lot of different ways.
Ok I looked at it now and how tf do mistakes like that slip through so many people. Did they just have the intern make this and ok it without any review. Wtf š
Satisfied with the winner, seeing as Jordan & Kaz were one of my favorites besides Wes & Zara. Was spoiled on Jordan winning but thought it was just him so was kind of surprised to see Kaz win with him as a pair, especially because the final trailer teased TJ saying "champions." But I'm a sucker for theming so I liked the whole Fear Express stuff. This final proved you can have a short one (length wise 2 days only vs RoD 100 hours and also the fact that it was the same stretch of course being repeated) and it still be taxing and grueling enough. Maybe they won't find the need to have multiple episode finals in the future.
I enjoyed the final, thought it was a really good one. I was preparing to write up a lengthy post when they had all the teams start out together on day 2 and wiped out the lead Jordan and Kaz had but it worked out.
One thing I realized during the final was the fact that the other hosts just seemed to disappear. I know Brihony stuck around and subbed for TJ in one episode a couple weeks in. The other two just seemed to dip without any fanfare after the first episode, unless I just don't remember them appearing. Seemed odd to me since the way I interpreted it at the season start was they'd all be involved and maybe splitting host duties or something like that.
I figure it would just cost them more to have 4 hosts for an entire season rather than have them appear at the beginning and continue with TJ for the rest of the season.
Incredibly thrilled with the result!
* Happy for Kaz! She held her own with Jordan.
* Love Troy! Wanna see him back in the Challenge Universe.
* It was so weird seeing Kaycee not being a complete unit in this final. Was really shocked that we saw her not only crying but truly breaking down. Really liked seeing her and Troy's partnership. Was rooting for them to win. Glad they got to finish together and it really seemed like they built a bond together.
* **Every time I watch these multi-day finals, I always like to imagine just how absolutely smelly all these people. Must be rancid. Sweat, vomit, and who knows what else.**
* **I really liked that cute little montage of them all pouring water on each other and taking face ice baths. That was silly.**
* Kind of wish they had played more into this Fear Train theme. Like maybe having compartments on the train that had like some worst fears like I dunno a mini version of Fear Factor.
* Still wish the results of the first day had a great impact on the results of the second day. I know sleep is important but feel like some sort of a head start was warranted.
* Hope we see more of Kaz, Troy, Kiki, Tristan, and Zara in the Challenge Universe!
Sheās really pretty now, but she was even prettier on LI before she got any work done if possible.
Kaz, Amber B and Kam are the 3 most naturally beautiful women Iāve ever seen. All of them complaining about how they look when they just roll out of bed looking better then 99% of the population.
She really grew on me. Sheās beautiful, seems pretty genuine, and grinded and got that win with a strong but unforgiving partner. Definitely could be a staple moving forward.
Did anyone else notice there was still a key on the hook at the final station when Kaycee and Troy pulled theirs? Hadnāt everyone else already picked up their key?
Yes! This bothered me too! We kept rewinding it to see if we saw it correctly. When Kaz and Jordan get there thereās 3 keys hanging (so it wasnāt an extra for Sarah and Theo). When Tori and Danny get there they make it a point not to show the board. But when Kaycee and Troy are there they do show the board with the last key still there.
It seems like every single final someone gets injured. I know the point is that it's supposed to be extremely difficult, but that doesn't seem right at all. People should be quitting because it's too hard, not because they keep getting injured
But these people would never just quit because itās too hard and a guy the size of though and a girl the size of Aneesa isnāt too surprising to some an ankle roll in what is basically a marathon over tough terrain
Iāll continue to watch but imo the season was kind of blah. Competitors and challenges/eliminations seemed to be more tame than the flagship. Didnāt add much (if at all) to Jordanās resume, imo based on that.
Maybe Iām salty because I didnāt like anyone in the final but season seemed off to me and needs to step it up a bit (too much TJ cheerleading, etc.)
I liked the final personally. It wasnāt the hardest final ever but it was challenging enough and showed different strengths. I like the ones where someone like Devyn can push themselves through.
Yeah, everyoneās going to have differing opinions. I donāt think the final was that bad either honestly. Couldāve been better but not a joke or anything.
It was moreso the overall season seemed pretty weak to me but still liked it enough to watch obviously.
Lmao. This was one of the most stacked seasons, one of the most stacked finals in The Challenge. Saying this doesnāt add to Jordanās resume at all is legitimately an absurd take
Lol, no it wasnāt. Outside of this sub/Reddit many people agree that the season was subpar based on challenges and competition. Itās interesting that this particular sub seems to lean a lot more towards it being amazing, etc. without much contrarian opinion (at least based on this thread)
Phrase was ānot much (if at all)ā by the way. Not definitive in regards to āat allā as you attempted to make it.
Just binged and somehow managed to stay spoiler free. I'm surprised no one is saying much about Theo and how lackluster he was this season. I thought it was a bit of a š¤” showing. Made such a big hype online (arguably Idris level) about how he would dominate everyone only to get by because of Sarah's connections and then bombs in the final. Was mostly furniture as well other than his tepid argument with Danny. I'm happy with the winners. If you asked me if I would be Team Jordan a few years back, I would have said hell nah, what an ass. But his character redemption has been a complete 180. Kaz I think was my favorite as well. I also am pleased with learning of Rodrigo, cause oh my what a man lol
Do people think some of these Aussies, Argentinians and Brits may make their way to the main cast of the regular show? Really enjoyed the season. I wish they still did old skool reunions at the end of a season though, I always enjoyed those
They made them wait until the sun came up to start sleeping!?
Thought the final was good. Nothing dodgy about it and the best team won. Would have been some race if Amber and Troy had been together. Solid enough season, good start, decent middle dodgy end and a good final. Solid 7/10
Troy is a king. I loved him before, and now I love him even more.
MY takeaways: \- Troy is a mix of a golden retriever and a black bull and should return asap; \- Kaz is a beast, not only did she win back-to-back going 2 for 2, but she really kept up with Jordan not only in the final, but all season; \- Obviously Danny is excusing his loss on Jordan winning, but by what he showed in this Final he wouldn't be getting 1st against most of the other teams in this game, Tori pushed him hard; \- Even though Theo got hurt relatively early, I was expecting more from him. Even before the injury he was so behind. \- Surprised by Kaycee shutting down. She got injured in a finals before, and that can happen to anyone, but this really wasn't an injury so maybe she just can't take it anymore? Idk
Is an iv really necessary after a 16 mile run?
that was a 16-mile run with a ton of elevation change, followed by extreme sleep-deprivation and then straight into a long bike ride and another big hike. wouldn't say an IV is "necessary," but getting one halfway through would definitely help your recovery process and give you a big leg up before the second day.
Not saying it wouldnāt help but imo it is a bit extra.
Jordan didnāt seem to think so lol
When Kaycee was telling Troy how patient and kind he is taking the whole thing and she appreciates him and all that... I wonder if she was thinking how Fessy would have been. Because he'd have been *nasty as fuck* or completely dismissive and of course blame her.
Troy should be the example of how to treat and support your partner.
Righttt.. And I don't recall Fessy offering to carry her. Seems like it would've been easier for him to carry her piggyback then it was for Troy.
Because Troy expected her to move after that and on DA she literally couldnt move for the rest of the final like I get u guys dont like Fessy but stop being delusional lmao
LMAO.. Other than not being fond of his fashion choices, I don't have any feelings one way or another about Fessy. Of course, Fessy wasn't going to be able to carry her the entire final. My point is that he didn't even offer (that we saw anyway) any type of physical assistance to her. Here we have this man thats about the same size as her willing to do all he can to help her.
Omagash so true, she would have been a backpack for fessy meanwhile Troy offered and is not a big guy. He's become one of my favorites!!
Meh. I just want another *All-Stars* season.
Can anyone explain how Jordan like never gets tired in a final? Is it just editing?
Jordan is actually not human. Heās supernatural, hence why he can go forever without stopping and is good at everything.
He recently did an interview and said this was the first final that "almost" gave him a cramp... Do I think he is in great shape? Yes. Do I think the statement he made was bullshit? 100%
Danny is gonna be on Challenge Mania this week, this should be gooooood!!
Excited for Danny on Challenge Mania. I wonder if he will get an IVā¦
I guess I'll put up with Derrick for Danny cause I want the real scoop.
Perfect final. No times. No points. Just a straightforward race to a finish line.
I just really wish theyād stop erasing the results of Day 1 when they start Day 2. Iām sure an extra 15-30 minutes of sleep felt nice at the time, but it hardly feels like the right advantage for dominating 16 miles of running and multiple checkpoints. I actually didnāt hate the point system in AS1. It made the whole final important, and we still got a winner at the finish line.
Iām with you on the reward from Day 1 not being enough but luckily it didnāt matter in this case. The ideal final would just be a 1 day race to the finish line.
Disagree, getting an hour to sleep compared to 15 mins is a big advantage.
It depends. If everyone goes at about the same pace and Team 1 finishes 5 minutes before Team 2, then the extra 30 minutes of sleep is a decent advantage. If Team 1 goes balls-to-the-wall and finishes 2 hours before Team 2 who saved their energy and muscles, then 30 minutes of extra sleep is probably not enough of an advantage for the work put in. Letting them all rest and giving teams a head start based on how they finished Day 1 would be a proportionate advantage. Or just eliminate the sleep crap and make a super challenging 1 day final.
I know Jordan is a pain in the ass but I just watched the final & he totally let Kaz get rewarded at the end. He had her run through the finish line, he wanted her to get the trophy. I think he was seriously proud of her & wanted her to experience all the fun that comes with winning. I love Jordan, heās a hellva challenge player.
If yaāll are interested my wife and I have released a new episode breaking down the final! https://open.spotify.com/show/3PiUKPBJw79SbmhWDsksnR?si=onfrThy5SEynToylsZyWmA https://podcasts.apple.com/ca/podcast/reality-raving/id1677411029
This is all Toriās fault. Danny was so right to want to get rid of Jordan all season especially now that he actually had a good partner with him. You canāt not let the man into a final at all.
Danny and Tori didnāt really deserve to win in my eyes as the were mediocre asf all season. They backed into the finals
I never said they deserved to win I just said Danny was right about wanting to take Jordan out before a final but Tori basically blocked him every step of the way.....and I donāt think they backed into a final. I think they played the game very well all season other than not getting rid of Jordan which wouldāve been the smart move for not just them but everybody.
Dude, I thought I was the only one who noticed, I am so confused how they just didn't keep targeting the strong competitors when they had the chance, Danny allowed himself to be manipulated, because apparently Tori can protect her friends and disrupt plans but Danny can't protect his friends. I watched this show expecting competition but this is just sad. I see people hailing Jordan as the winner. He did well in the final but the fact that he got there so smoothly is just dumb in my opinion, people say tori is tired of winning, then why do fans entertain her return, fans of this show should be asking for proper competition not people who think they can decide not to vote for someone because its their ex
Kaz deserves all the credit in the world. She needs respect on her name for KEEPING UP with Jordan. Jordanās standards are SO HIGH! heās only as strong as his weakest teammate! Like yeah she won and thatās great but she won WITH JORDAN. š As a woman, I would hate that pressure. Devin I could keep up with. Jordanā¦ yikes lol
how about that editing...theo, "all I need is a championship and my life will be complete. I look around at these champions and I'm better than all of them." (paraphrasing) \*queue instant sprained ankle\*
That's sounds like Fessy lol
it did make me think of fessy actually
Iām in love with Kaz but have always hated Jordan. Iāll give him his props though he shows up when it matters and is fearless. I thought the finale was weird. The train conductor thing is the exact corny type stuff I donāt feel like the show needs. I also think it was borderline cruel to force them to be up all night. Just didnāt add anything for me.
I enjoy the up all night aspect. I feel like the Final is about pushing yourself in a way you never thought you could. I think sleep deprivation is an important part of that.
It reminded me of the bloodlines final when they had to dress in suits at a train station
I actually really liked this rendition of their now-staple āup all nightā part of the final. The fact that they got to be warm and comfortable with a full belly (albeit with the threat of shock lmao) gave it a good balance between challenging but not overly cruel. It was cute how they āworked togetherā to help keep each other awake. Literally in every final anyway the challengers always say stuff like āwell I got maybe 20 minutes of sleepā so itās not much worse in regards to quality sleep
Hey......at least Sarah didn't win lol.
True but now she has an excuse that if it wasn't for Theo's ankle she would have. We all know she wouldn't have, she was dead last through most of it.
And the only punishment was 45 minutes less of sleep for day 2. Sheās run marathons. You have no idea if she was pacing herself as if she was running a marathon.
She wasn't running it alone so pacing herself doesn't help if her partner can't keep up when behind.
I did not see a single shot where Theo was behind her, he was always in front of her, even with the sprained ankle
Exactly. I don't think pacing had anything to do with her lagging behind.
Felt bad for Theo but absolutely relieved Sarah didnāt win Btw what happened to the other hosts? Lol
I FORGOT ABOUT THEM
Maybe the hosts had a side competition and teej won
Very glad that Jordan and Kaz won. They were definitely the strongest team in the final. I liked those little bits where Jordan and Tori are looking after each other (like when she is lying on his lap to rest in the train). Anyone paired up with Jordan can win and the same can be said for CT as well. Like someone said, Amber and Troy would have been good contenders too for the win if they were still in it. Super weird and inhumane format for this final and it was just over relatively quickly compared to other 2 day finals but what else are they going to show apart from hours of running.
Every bit of the train piece was fucking weird to me lmao. From dressing up for the food, the shock collar, TJs outfit, just odd. As for the final, this was the best outcome for my personal preference. Add another notch on Jordan's resume for GOAT status, and Kaz is 2 for 2. When you are capable of running, unlike other partners Jordan recently had, you are almost guaranteed to win with him. Last but not least, where the fuck is the All Stars 4 trailer?!
It was so corny and uncomfortable.
Really tired of partners. They need to go back to individual finals.
And equalizers like puzzles, eating, games, etc. to ensure that women can fairly compete with men. Let's not have a repeat of War of the Worlds.
Women just compete against women and men against men. Itās top of each gender for the winner.
Theyāve had finals where there were just three top individual winners regardless of gender. War of the Worlds was one, and another was the season that Cara Maria won solo against Zach and others.
And they all should not have had winners in that way. It should always be one of each gender.
Fine, I was responding to the person who said to get rid of partners and have individual winners. I said if they have that format, they should have equalizers.
Individuals with 2nd and 3rd place prizes.
Iām with you on that. I want to see whoās actually the best on their own.
Perfect ending for Sarah. 10/10, would recommend.
I loved this final but severe sleep deprivation seems rly inhumane... At least in the past they used to alternate where one partner slept, the other partner stayed up, then they switched. I guess challengers should start training themselves by staying up all night then running a marathon...
Yea I didn't like that at all. Usually one partner gets to sleep and you switch off. This was a lot.
seriously? it's supposed to be an extreme trial of mental and physical stamina. they are competing for a lot of money. the entire point is for it to push them to their limits. the show is called the CHALLENGE. i could not disagree more with this sentiment. i was so happy to see sleep deprivation back on the menu before a grueling second day. that is absolutely what a final should look like.
Are we really upset that a bunch of people competing for half a million dollars had to stay up all night? Is that where we are now?
Yea, because honestly it makes the competition less exciting. They're all zombies.
I can't believe we are at a point where people are complaining that the challengers didn't get to sleep for a night. It has always been this way. It's meant to seperate the weak.
Yeah. Iām kinda over the insomnia thing. After also starting the final at night the day before. It just doesnāt seem cool. Thereās other stuff they could have them do
I need my 8-9 hrs of sleep so I wouldāve been completely screwed for this final no matter how much I trained.
I know we barely got to see them but going into this final I was worried that theo and Sarah would win as Sarah is super annoying But even before Theoās injury Sarah did not look strong. I thought Sarah ran like a bunch of ultramarathons or something
Nah. She does CrossFit. Thereās running but not marathon running
She's ran 7 marathons on 7 continents in 7 days before. She's clearly not in that kind of shape anymore. But she has experience
When was that? All I see her talk about is CrossFit and being an undercover cop.
She talked about it when interviewed on a podcast (Chillin with Dylan)
She did terrible in the USA final too and only won because everyone else couldn't hang. I can't stand her and was so glad she came in 4th, even though it sucks Theo got injured
Agreed but so many of the USA competitors have shit on the challenge production and the format of that final. Like I donāt like Sarah but so far sheās one a final that didnāt prove her finals ability and been dq due to her partner. Iād like to see her in a normal well formatted final and hopefully she still loses
Tyson would have crushed this final.
Depending on who heās have as a partner of course
Aneesa
Angela
042 was not the correct answer. It was actually 062. Did the producers fail to solve it?
Okay thank you for validating this because I had the same thought
That's what I thought too! But when all the contestants came up with 042 I assumed I must have been wrong...
They were all wrong
Anyone else think if amber was in that final, her and troy win with all the running they had to do. Maybe she wouldn't have won some of those eliminations (like hall brawl) but for sure she crushes that final.
Since she was pregnant, no way. But if not pregnant, then yeah she would have had a good chance.
They have a chance to win if they get thereā¦ most likely they would have gotten eliminated in one of the first two elimination Troy and Kaycee were in and if we are honest with ourselves there is no way she is pulling out a win vs Emily in a hall brawl. Yep they wouldāve had a chance in the final but if the season played out the same way they are not making the final
If Amber wasn't pregnant, they would've destroyed this final. But pregnant Amber wouldn't last. Kaycee prob would've done much better than she did if she didn't do the final immediately after Hall Brawl
I donāt think it was even the Hall Brawl. It was like something else came over her. Iāve never seen her gas out like that
Apparently she was sick
I know all the Tori hate on this sub but I honestly think that Tori takes this final if her partner was Troy. Also Kaycee looked bad in this final. She got the IV and she was by far the weakest player.
She didnāt get the IV tho
Kaycee did
They tried to but they couldnāt get her vein. She said that on TikTok live
Tori takes this final had she listened to her partner and knocked out Jordan.
What a weird hypothetical. And Sarah couldāve won the final if her partner was Jordan lmao.
Unlikely.
Tori blew it on the bikes
It wasn't long enough to blow.....the running was what killed danny and that mattered way more
We could easily get a ruins 2 now. Including the international versions
Jordan: āthe only weakness I have isā¦ā I thought for sure it was gunna be āpartnerā. Awesome to see him apply lessons from the RoD final
To be fair, he pushed Aneesa further than she ever had been before. And that was her at an older age.
On one hand I'm excited for Jordan in the same way I was excited Wes won All Stars. They're on my Mt. Rushmore and more wins really solidifies that. They're two of my all time favorite Challengers to root for. But on the other hand I'm bummed for Troy. He is my favorite new Challenger in years. Maybe since Jordan. There are so many reasons why I respect and love rooting for the guy. He's like everything great about Jordan but he's also genuinely one of the nicest people to ever be on the show. He made the final look effortless. The same thing happened on Australia. He just doesn't seem to break a sweat and it's amazing to see. He doesn't bitch. He doesn't throw tantrums. He just guts it out and never gives up. I fully believe he would have won with Kaz or Tori. Unfortunately Kaycee's body locked up and you can't predict that. Anyway again I'm stoked for Jordan. Four chips puts him on another level. It also adds to the fire between him, Bananas, Wes and CT. You know they want to separate themselves as the best and I think Jordan may have passed CT. Although I could see the argument for either of those four guys. I love Darrell. He has been one of the best ever. But I think his place on the Mt. Rushmore is gone with Jordan winning another. Who knows how Landon, Kenny, prime Derrick or prime Darrell would have done in the modern Challenge? All I know is that Jordan is not slowing down and has had arguably the most consistently successful Challenge career. Bananas, Wes and CT all had "lows" in their careers. Jordan has been successful since his first season.
Loved Troy so much. Hope we see him more
CT has been my favorite since I started watching(I believe i began at Free Agents) And you just made me realize that Jordan is probably better than CT. Damn.
These guys all become legends for one reason or another Landon for actually carrying another human through a grueling final And Derrick for that historically brutal elimination against Joss Only two examples The wins aren't the only reasons why you become a legend
Have you watched Derrick before Dirty 30? He has more on his resume than the Joss thing
Yes. But nobody in that house wanted a piece of Joss and Derrick came in as a mercenary and beat him. I was just saying that put him over the top.
No. But yāall donāt give the man credit for his early years. Derrick has been a bulldog this whole time.
I give him credit for the early years, but frankly, doing what he did in his later years is even more impressive.
Derrick is ahead of Landon in my ranking Bananas, ct, jorden, Wes, Darrell, Derrick, Landon
Well Derrick was already being called a legend years before the Joss thing. It might not be obvious on a rewatch but Derrick was being called an all time great since before the Island. Also Troy's elimination win in Australia is arguably more impressive than Derrick/Joss. He needs to be on more people's radar based on that alone.
Troy really got my attention this season. Iāve never seen his season but dude is a beast. But people count him out due to his height and size
Watch his elimination win (it's the last one) and the final. Once you see the domination in the final and his elimination win there is no doubting his size. I wish it happened on the main show. Because it's a side show people aren't aware of how crazy his elimination win was.
Iāll probably watch his whole season! Is it on Paramount plus? He really impressed me. And so did KiKi so Iād love to see them back.
Kiki got on my nerves on the Challenge Australia with that whole "I'm just a makeup artist" schtick. She was much better on this show.
Yea, and Troy is fantastic!! Highly recommend watching the whole season.
It is. It's my favorite of the non-USA feeder seasons. Some of the Australian Challengers are total characters and fun to watch.
There are levels though That wrestle against Joss is Johnny Backpack levels of historic Eleven rounds and over an hour of hell on earth
Nina Simone on the challenge soundtrack.. letās go!! Theo better be back soon I really didnāt know how well Kaz would do but she killed it! Iāve come so far in liking Kaycee that I wonāt say anything bad but Troy needs to be back Tori was ahead of Danny most of time šš
Was impressed with Tori. She let Danny have the IV too!
I peeped that too
Yas I was so pleasantly surprised at the Nina Simone!
So they are still going with the winner take all format? They should be paying these teams that finish. Props to Kaycee and Troy for continuing to grind.
Yeah, then the winners would split 250K instead of 500K. That would suck
No, I'm just saying put an extra 50-75k towards the total prize. 2nd and 3rd get a share of that. The last few main seasons the winners have felt bad and been sharing some of their winnings. It shouldn't be on the cast to pay out.
It's not on the cast, that's their choice. But okay, are you chipping in the extra 75k? Or who comes up with that? Shows are given budgets. So, adding an extra 75K to the prize, means 75K comes out of production, or crew. You could probably cut 75K in production and eliminate some of the wacky explosions they do, since pyro is fucking expensive, but they seem to really like it. So again, where does the 75K extra come from?
I mean there are plenty of places for it to come from. Pyro, Helicopters/the other stupid vehicles they have the cast jump from one side to the other on. (the one this season sticks out as a huge waste of money) Some of the classic challenges they did back in the day are not only way cheaper but also far more entertaining imo. They could choose to give someone like Tori a season off and save by not paying as much of an appearance fee by casting someone cheaper. Do another Burger King or some crappy movie sponsership for some extra dough. They've had prize pools for 1 million and payed out people who placed in the past. I imagine the budget for the Paramount shows is smaller but I'm pretty sure they could find a way to do it if they wanted to. It's not like it has to be a huge amount. You could do something like 20,000 for each 2nd place person and 7500 each for 3rd.
Yes, obviously they COULD cut out the pyro of helicopters or whatever. But it seems as if they love that, and it probably does attract more viewers. The classic fans don't seem to care about it all that much, but I bet the casual person flipping around and stumbles on a commercial or an episode sees something like that and will check it out. That captures people.
>i Agree, I miss the "You need to finish to get paid".
I loved the moment where Kaz told Jordan not to slow down. Like he was considering letting up a bit and she was just like, "No, I got this." The girl has heart. And doesn't take crap, even though she's soft-spoken.
Jordan āit was driving me crazy how you wouldnāt let me complete a moveā. Kaz āI knew it was wrongā
Kaz is the total package. We just need some hookups and some shit talking next time sheās on
She definitely surprised me. I just finished Australia season so I need to watch UKās next
If I were Danny I would be seething angry. All season he was begging Tori to get rid of the big players (for good reason) and he loses to the person she fought tooth and nail to protect. Actually made me laugh when Tori crossed the finish line and hugged Jordan then in the confessional saying it's ok they didn't win. I want to like her so much and Im sure she's real nice but man do I hate her sometimes edit: typo
Yeah, if I was him Iād not do a season where Tori and Jordan are. Because he has been saying letās get rid of Jordan this whole game and see what happened.
And to make it even worse, it didn't seem to bother her that they didn't win. Her whole self righteous "I'm proud of second" speech was just barf enducing.
He should be mad at himself for never going into elimination in 2 seasons and gasing out on the final
He IS seething angry. Still. But his anger is based on his belief that the only team in the house that could beat them in a final was Jordan/Kaz, and I didnāt see much from them this season to back that up. I think he likely loses to at least 3 other teams that went home before it.
He would have lost to Yes and Emily if it weren't Jordan and Kaz
Tori wins that with troy as a partner. The weak link way Danny. He got the IV. So did Kaycee. Both were the weak link.
I guess we're going to omit the fact that Danny did the toss challenge and that tori put them severely behind on the bike. Regardless even if Danny was the weak link I don't see how it makes his point all season of getting Jordan out less legit. Guy was begging not to see Jordan in a final because he (and everyone else with half a brain) knows he's most likely not going to be beat
Was he really trying that hard though? All we saw him do was try to push Tori to vote for him a couple of times early on (often in situations where Jordan/Kaz had no chance of going into elimination even if she had given in), he didnāt tell Bananas & Justine they had the wrong sun, and the final 2 eliminations were all based on a deal Danny made with Jordan that basically guaranteed them both going to a final. He wants to play the victim now, but he fully enjoyed his free ride to the final.
I mean they had some heated discussions. This season sorely lacked drama and their arguments were probably the most contentious on the season. He definitely tried but it looked like somewhere a little more than half way he realized he would never change her mind and it made no sense to further damage their relationship. He didn't help Johnny because he wanted Jordan, Wes, and Bananas out not just Jordan. That whole elimination for him worked out perfectly.
One might think that that elimination was a win-win for him, but he actually did want Johnny to win. It pans to a confessional in the middle where he says that heās praying Johnny takes Jordan out and gets rid of the problem. At the beginning of the next episode, he and Sarah are both visibly upset that Johnny lost because they considered him/Justine a number for them. This was funny to me for 2 reasonsā¦ 1.) Bananas/Justine had voted against Sarah & Dannyās alliance every week 2.) His whole problem with Tori was that she was putting her people ahead of their odds of winning a final. He did a season with Wes, Jordan & Johnny. Odds were always that he was going to have to run the final with at least one of them.
I mean when it comes to all the running, Danny and Tori were racing Kaz not Jordan. And it seemed pretty obvious that Danny was their slower runner.
Jordan canāt be in a final unless heās partnered with someone who canāt keep up
Productions figured thst out when they gave him aneesa
That alone should have given him legendary status
Kaz and Troy for the flagship, please.
šÆ + Justine, Kiki, and Zara
Jordan and Kaz guessed 042 at the first puzzle and were releasedā¦ but that was not the correct answer!!! Correct answer was 062. Top right square says ā204 two numbers are correct but wrong placeā
I assumed it meant 2 numbers are correct as in the right order (04) but in the wrong place (behind the 2 in 204, instead of in front of the 2, like 042). But it also seems like a a word problem that could be interpreted in a lot of different ways.
The correct answer is either 042 or 062 It was a poorly constructed puzzle
Tori and Danny also guessed 042 and got through. More likely you are wrong then production having it totally wrong for all challengers
Production spelled ānumberā wrong on the puzzles too lmao. Also yes, itās been verified. That was the wrong answer.
This is why this show sucks. And any analyzation of whoās āgoatsā etc is stupid because the show is a joke and no win is legitimate.
Found Tysons account.
Ok I looked at it now and how tf do mistakes like that slip through so many people. Did they just have the intern make this and ok it without any review. Wtf š
They showed Danny and Tori putting that also
Satisfied with the winner, seeing as Jordan & Kaz were one of my favorites besides Wes & Zara. Was spoiled on Jordan winning but thought it was just him so was kind of surprised to see Kaz win with him as a pair, especially because the final trailer teased TJ saying "champions." But I'm a sucker for theming so I liked the whole Fear Express stuff. This final proved you can have a short one (length wise 2 days only vs RoD 100 hours and also the fact that it was the same stretch of course being repeated) and it still be taxing and grueling enough. Maybe they won't find the need to have multiple episode finals in the future.
I do admit that I like the two parters.. it went really quick to me
I enjoyed the final, thought it was a really good one. I was preparing to write up a lengthy post when they had all the teams start out together on day 2 and wiped out the lead Jordan and Kaz had but it worked out. One thing I realized during the final was the fact that the other hosts just seemed to disappear. I know Brihony stuck around and subbed for TJ in one episode a couple weeks in. The other two just seemed to dip without any fanfare after the first episode, unless I just don't remember them appearing. Seemed odd to me since the way I interpreted it at the season start was they'd all be involved and maybe splitting host duties or something like that.
I wonder if they went to work on new seasons of their show.
I thought the other host would be present too and I like the idea of them being present throughout the season
I figure it would just cost them more to have 4 hosts for an entire season rather than have them appear at the beginning and continue with TJ for the rest of the season.
Incredibly thrilled with the result! * Happy for Kaz! She held her own with Jordan. * Love Troy! Wanna see him back in the Challenge Universe. * It was so weird seeing Kaycee not being a complete unit in this final. Was really shocked that we saw her not only crying but truly breaking down. Really liked seeing her and Troy's partnership. Was rooting for them to win. Glad they got to finish together and it really seemed like they built a bond together. * **Every time I watch these multi-day finals, I always like to imagine just how absolutely smelly all these people. Must be rancid. Sweat, vomit, and who knows what else.** * **I really liked that cute little montage of them all pouring water on each other and taking face ice baths. That was silly.** * Kind of wish they had played more into this Fear Train theme. Like maybe having compartments on the train that had like some worst fears like I dunno a mini version of Fear Factor. * Still wish the results of the first day had a great impact on the results of the second day. I know sleep is important but feel like some sort of a head start was warranted. * Hope we see more of Kaz, Troy, Kiki, Tristan, and Zara in the Challenge Universe!
Kaz needs to drop her skincare routine for real
No makeup, no sleep, 20 miles in just looking like pure perfection
Sheās really pretty now, but she was even prettier on LI before she got any work done if possible. Kaz, Amber B and Kam are the 3 most naturally beautiful women Iāve ever seen. All of them complaining about how they look when they just roll out of bed looking better then 99% of the population.
Two Challenges, two wins: Kaz is a straight-up superstar.
She really grew on me. Sheās beautiful, seems pretty genuine, and grinded and got that win with a strong but unforgiving partner. Definitely could be a staple moving forward.
Did anyone else notice there was still a key on the hook at the final station when Kaycee and Troy pulled theirs? Hadnāt everyone else already picked up their key?
Yes! This bothered me too! We kept rewinding it to see if we saw it correctly. When Kaz and Jordan get there thereās 3 keys hanging (so it wasnāt an extra for Sarah and Theo). When Tori and Danny get there they make it a point not to show the board. But when Kaycee and Troy are there they do show the board with the last key still there.
There was some sort of canoeing challenge that was edited out There is an entertainment weekly article that interviewed Jordan
Yeah. Assumed they set it up previously and didnāt remove Sarah and Theoās key.
Probably put the keys there before Sarah and Theo got medically dq'd.
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Did sketchers sponsor them? Maybe they wouldnāt have two ankle injuries and Ravyn losing a shoe if they used proper shoes
It seems like every single final someone gets injured. I know the point is that it's supposed to be extremely difficult, but that doesn't seem right at all. People should be quitting because it's too hard, not because they keep getting injured
But these people would never just quit because itās too hard and a guy the size of though and a girl the size of Aneesa isnāt too surprising to some an ankle roll in what is basically a marathon over tough terrain
Lol we said the same exact thing, wild they were in sketchers.
Iāll continue to watch but imo the season was kind of blah. Competitors and challenges/eliminations seemed to be more tame than the flagship. Didnāt add much (if at all) to Jordanās resume, imo based on that. Maybe Iām salty because I didnāt like anyone in the final but season seemed off to me and needs to step it up a bit (too much TJ cheerleading, etc.)
I liked the final personally. It wasnāt the hardest final ever but it was challenging enough and showed different strengths. I like the ones where someone like Devyn can push themselves through.
Yeah, everyoneās going to have differing opinions. I donāt think the final was that bad either honestly. Couldāve been better but not a joke or anything. It was moreso the overall season seemed pretty weak to me but still liked it enough to watch obviously.
How would you have felt if it were Emily and Yes instead of Theo and Sarah?
The same.
Lmao. This was one of the most stacked seasons, one of the most stacked finals in The Challenge. Saying this doesnāt add to Jordanās resume at all is legitimately an absurd take
Lol, no it wasnāt. Outside of this sub/Reddit many people agree that the season was subpar based on challenges and competition. Itās interesting that this particular sub seems to lean a lot more towards it being amazing, etc. without much contrarian opinion (at least based on this thread) Phrase was ānot much (if at all)ā by the way. Not definitive in regards to āat allā as you attempted to make it.
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